:00:36. > :00:37.Morning, folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:38. > :00:41.begins a new drive urging Scots to support what she calls
:00:42. > :00:45."the beautiful dream" of independence.
:00:46. > :00:50.Tough talk from George Osborne ahead of his Budget on Wednesday.
:00:51. > :00:52.The Chancellor wants us to live within our means.
:00:53. > :00:55.Fighting talk too, from the man in his shadow.
:00:56. > :00:58.John McDonnell wants to revive Labour's economic credibility.
:00:59. > :01:03.And does Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party have a problem
:01:04. > :01:08.Labour students at Oxford are already being investigated
:01:09. > :01:12.and now party students at another university will also face scrutiny.
:01:13. > :01:13.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:14. > :01:16.We'll have more from the SNP's conference, where Nicola Sturgeon's
:01:17. > :01:30.been making her pitch to continue as First Minister and launching
:01:31. > :01:33.And with me three Fleet Street journos, living the dream.
:01:34. > :01:40.Nick Watt, Julia Harley-Brewer and Tim Shipman.
:01:41. > :01:44.For the rest of us, it is a bit of a nightmare!
:01:45. > :01:46.So, four months ago, George Osborne sounded upbeat
:01:47. > :01:51.Writing in the Sun on Sunday, ahead of Wednesday's Budget,
:01:52. > :01:53.the Chancellor says the world is facing its most uncertain period
:01:54. > :01:57.He says Britain has to act now, rather than pay later,
:01:58. > :02:02.Let's listen to the Chancellor on the Marr Show a little earlier.
:02:03. > :02:05.I think the world is a much more difficult and dangerous place.
:02:06. > :02:08.My message in this Budget is that the world is a more
:02:09. > :02:12.uncertain place than at any time since the financial crisis.
:02:13. > :02:15.We need to act now so we don't pay later.
:02:16. > :02:20.That is why we need to find additional savings,
:02:21. > :02:23.equivalent to 50p in every ?100 the Government spends by the end
:02:24. > :02:27.We have got to live within our means to stay secure.
:02:28. > :02:32.That is the way we make Britain fit for the future.
:02:33. > :02:38.That was the Chancellor earlier this morning. What did we learn? He is
:02:39. > :02:44.preparing the ground for a very difficult budget. Why is he talking
:02:45. > :02:48.about the difficult global economic circumstances? We have a significant
:02:49. > :02:54.slowdown in China but it helps him in the EU referendum campaign. Why
:02:55. > :02:57.risk leaving the EU when it is difficult economic circumstances? It
:02:58. > :03:03.helps him with a budget. You need to expend why he was talking in the
:03:04. > :03:07.July budget, the Autumn Statement, targeting a 10 billion budget
:03:08. > :03:12.surplus by 2020 and now he will be talking back calories and ?18
:03:13. > :03:20.billion hole in the size of the economy. Will he be able to meet
:03:21. > :03:25.that surplus? He needs an alibi for that. All the global headwinds,
:03:26. > :03:28.problems in the emerging markets, the slowdown in China, the Eurozone
:03:29. > :03:33.struggling to be overwhelmed. We knew that back in July. Nothing has
:03:34. > :03:39.changed. The thing about George Osborne is he is a politician. It is
:03:40. > :03:43.always about politics. It is not ideal, coming into local elections,
:03:44. > :03:48.London mayoral elections, to be giving a load of cuts to public
:03:49. > :03:53.services and possibly tax rises. The reality is he is always looking at
:03:54. > :03:58.the long game and he does always play a brilliant politicians long
:03:59. > :04:04.game. He is looking to 2020 and does not care. He also plays a bad shot
:04:05. > :04:11.game. Will it be a difficult budget or will it be a steady issues
:04:12. > :04:14.budget? What is striking about back in this morning, at least half of it
:04:15. > :04:20.was about the European Union and not the budget. The rest of it was about
:04:21. > :04:24.the Tory leadership and him taking potshots at Boris Johnson. The
:04:25. > :04:28.subtext of this budget is it has been a difficult and dangerous time
:04:29. > :04:33.for George Osborne and his teacher. He sat there and said, I am not
:04:34. > :04:39.going to sit in this chair and mumble away. Who could he be talking
:04:40. > :04:43.about there? We were told week ago that the subtext of the budget would
:04:44. > :04:47.be the dangers of Brexit and the Tory leadership. It is not the
:04:48. > :04:56.subtext, it is the text. There is hardly anything in it in terms of
:04:57. > :04:59.big stuff. Steady as she goes. Can we just have another shout out for
:05:00. > :05:07.the brilliant headline, genius political strategist clears up mess
:05:08. > :05:09.made by genius political strategist. He may be nursing a little rabbit to
:05:10. > :05:14.surprise as always! Now, if a certain referendum had
:05:15. > :05:17.gone a bit differently, Scotland, would be an independent
:05:18. > :05:20.country in just over ten days' time. Those wanting to leave the UK didn't
:05:21. > :05:25.win that argument in 2014 but that hasn't dented the fortunes
:05:26. > :05:27.of the SNP, who are riding high It's the party's Spring Conference
:05:28. > :05:30.in Glasgow this weekend, and we're joined now
:05:31. > :05:40.from there by the First Minister Good morning. A pleasure to be with
:05:41. > :05:47.you, Andrew. Had the referendum gone your way, we would be ten days from
:05:48. > :05:52.independents. You will be taking a massive and unsustainable ?15
:05:53. > :05:55.billion budget deficit, 10% of Scottish GDP. What would you be
:05:56. > :06:03.doing to get that down? We would deal with it in the same way the UK
:06:04. > :06:12.dealt with its deficit in 2009/ when they had 2.2% of the GDP. -- 2009/
:06:13. > :06:16.2010. They will be building on the underlying fundamental strengths of
:06:17. > :06:20.the Scottish economy. Our this goal position has been broadly similar to
:06:21. > :06:24.the rest of the UK and, in some years, better than the rest of the
:06:25. > :06:29.UK. Onshore revenues are growing at a faster rate than the fall in
:06:30. > :06:32.offshore revenues. We have higher employment and faster productivity
:06:33. > :06:36.growth. The economy is fundamentally strong and that would have been a
:06:37. > :06:42.very good basis on which to become an independent country. Did you not
:06:43. > :06:46.oppose most efforts of the British government to get the deficit down?
:06:47. > :06:50.I opposed many measures that George Osborne has taken. I do not say we
:06:51. > :06:55.should not try to get the deficit down. I have opposed and continue to
:06:56. > :06:59.oppose the speed at which it is happening in the way in which it is
:07:00. > :07:02.happening but no one would deny that countries want to get their fiscal
:07:03. > :07:06.positions into a more stable condition and the UK is in right
:07:07. > :07:14.now. The point I'm making is the Scottish economy is fundamentally
:07:15. > :07:16.strong economy. Much of what I have said illustrates that point. Let's
:07:17. > :07:20.look at some of the things you have said. You have said most countries
:07:21. > :07:24.have deficits. Can you name another at Fat economy 80s after the
:07:25. > :07:34.financial crash that has a budget deficit of 10% of GDP. You do not
:07:35. > :07:41.look at just one year full if I go back to that -- two 2008, 2009, it
:07:42. > :07:44.was double that of Scotland. Our this goal position has been stronger
:07:45. > :07:50.but is not right now because of the particular issues. Is it not the
:07:51. > :07:56.case that Scotland's deficit now is the highest in the European Union?
:07:57. > :08:01.That is true, isn't it? In the year we had figures published in this
:08:02. > :08:08.past week, we have a very difficult and challenging set of figures. It
:08:09. > :08:12.is the highest. No country, whether the UK, Scotland or another EU
:08:13. > :08:16.country, makes judgments about that this good strength of that country
:08:17. > :08:20.on the strength of one year's goes. The point I am making is over the
:08:21. > :08:25.past ten years, our fiscal position has been broadly similar to the UK
:08:26. > :08:29.and coming summer beiges, has been significantly better. If you project
:08:30. > :08:33.forward to the next five years, the future is much more important than
:08:34. > :08:39.the past, onshore revenues are likely to Bath the outstrip the
:08:40. > :08:44.decline in offshore revenues. -- basked in the outstrip. The North
:08:45. > :08:48.Sea contains difficulties for those working in the North Sea and
:08:49. > :08:53.economies on the North East of Scotland. The economy of Scotland is
:08:54. > :08:58.fundamentally strong. Let's look at more than one year. You have said it
:08:59. > :09:03.is a snapshot. Without oil revenues, and there are no oil revenues now,
:09:04. > :09:09.without the revenues, Scotland has run a persistent budget deficit of
:09:10. > :09:14.over 10% every year for 13 years. You have a systemic deficit problem.
:09:15. > :09:20.Why should you not look at oil revenues? Oil revenues are there and
:09:21. > :09:25.have been contributing to the Treasury to the tune of ?300
:09:26. > :09:30.billion. They are not there now. Without them you have run a
:09:31. > :09:34.persistent budget deficit and have done for 13 years. I accept it is
:09:35. > :09:39.the future that matters more than the past. If you look at the
:09:40. > :09:43.projections for the next five years, our onshore revenues, remember more
:09:44. > :09:48.than 90% of the Scottish economy comes from onshore and not offshore.
:09:49. > :09:52.If you look five years ahead, onshore revenues are projected to
:09:53. > :10:00.grow in the region of ?14 billion. That is many times before in
:10:01. > :10:05.offshore revenues in that period. I am not denying the challenge of
:10:06. > :10:08.North Sea and other countries. Norway is facing exactly the same
:10:09. > :10:12.challenge. Because they are better prepared for it and have Stuart did
:10:13. > :10:18.oil resources better, Norway, in the last couple of weeks true down on
:10:19. > :10:25.its massive oil fund. The powers that independence would have given
:10:26. > :10:33.as and we did not vote yes, we have had -- we would have had ability to
:10:34. > :10:36.draw down on that faster. Why are onshore revenues growing less
:10:37. > :10:44.strongly in Scotland than the rest of the UK? That is a long-standing
:10:45. > :10:49.issue. One issue at the heart of that is growth in the heart of
:10:50. > :10:52.London. We are seeing a narrowing in some of the long-standing gap there
:10:53. > :10:58.has been between aspects of the Scottish economy and the UK economy.
:10:59. > :11:01.If we take productivity, for a long time Scotland lags significantly
:11:02. > :11:07.behind the rest of the UK. Over the past years we have close that gap is
:11:08. > :11:11.it that can leave. We still lag behind our European competitors and
:11:12. > :11:15.that is a problem. I am not standing here denying the challenges that the
:11:16. > :11:20.Scottish economy has. In the same way you have been talking about the
:11:21. > :11:24.Chancellor's budget and the same way the UK economy has challenges and
:11:25. > :11:28.across the European Union, they have challenges. There are real strength
:11:29. > :11:35.is in the Scottish economy. The real question should be how we build on
:11:36. > :11:42.and accents are the big strengths. Revenues per person in Scotland
:11:43. > :11:49.where ?10,700 in the years 2011, 20 12. They are now ?10,000, 700 ( even
:11:50. > :11:53.with the growth in revenues. The offshore has offset that. We still
:11:54. > :12:02.have a fundamental deficit problem. I am not denying we have a deficit.
:12:03. > :12:06.The UK has a deficit. Take revenues per head of population, which is
:12:07. > :12:10.what you decided to me there. In the most recent year, our revenues per
:12:11. > :12:17.head of population are broadly similar to the UK. In every one of
:12:18. > :12:20.the past 35 years, revenues per head of population have been higher than
:12:21. > :12:26.the rest of the UK. I accept we have a challenge in the North Sea. I
:12:27. > :12:29.accept that like all oil-producing countries, we have challenges about
:12:30. > :12:33.how we transition away from oil and gas over the years to come, though
:12:34. > :12:36.there is a great deal of attention in the North Sea. These are
:12:37. > :12:40.challenges we should embrace and challenges we should be working out
:12:41. > :12:44.how we face up to and address. Scotland is doing that and we'll do
:12:45. > :12:51.that on the basis of fundamental strengths in our economy. -- will do
:12:52. > :12:59.that. Scotland pays per capita about the same as the UK average. I am
:13:00. > :13:04.talking about the current year. What I am saying is, you cannot judge the
:13:05. > :13:09.economy in one year. It is similar in one year in 34 of the past 35
:13:10. > :13:15.years and has been higher. That is the point I am making. The reason
:13:16. > :13:21.you are running a deficit, per capita spending is so much higher
:13:22. > :13:25.than in Scotland it is ?1400 higher public spending per person.
:13:26. > :13:32.Westminster that is that build it is the difference between tax revenues
:13:33. > :13:39.and what you spend. -- fits that bill. It is a deficit. The UK is in
:13:40. > :13:47.deficit in Scotland is in deficit. It is twice as big! In 2008, 2009,
:13:48. > :13:52.the UK deficit was twice as big as Scotland it will vary from year to
:13:53. > :13:57.year. In terms of the point about per capita spending, there are very
:13:58. > :14:01.good reasons why someone who knows Scotland well, we have a country
:14:02. > :14:05.where one in five of the population lives in a row and remote community.
:14:06. > :14:10.I was Health Secretary for five years. It cost more to deliver
:14:11. > :14:15.health services on an island or rural community than it does in
:14:16. > :14:19.Glasgow. Westminster pays for that, it makes up the difference. If you
:14:20. > :14:24.are independent you would either have to raise taxes or cut spending.
:14:25. > :14:29.What would it be? By how much would you raise taxes and cut spending? We
:14:30. > :14:33.set a budget in devolved Scotland every year. We make choices,
:14:34. > :14:37.sometimes these are tough choices. If Scotland were independent, we
:14:38. > :14:40.would do that as well. The point I am making, the economy of an
:14:41. > :14:44.independent Scotland would face challenges like other economies do.
:14:45. > :14:50.We're in a fundamentally strong position. Employment is higher than
:14:51. > :14:54.any other UK nation. Productivity is growing faster. We have a number of
:14:55. > :15:01.key strengths in the economy. One of the challenges is how we build on
:15:02. > :15:04.these strengths and get our economy growing faster. We have a number of
:15:05. > :15:08.world leading sectors in our economy.
:15:09. > :15:17.The fact is your deficit was ?15 billion, moving with oil revenues at
:15:18. > :15:20.2 billion last year. This year oil revenues are reckoned to be at zero
:15:21. > :15:30.so your budget deficit would get even worse. Two cut your deficit to
:15:31. > :15:38.anything like acceptable levels you would have to increase tax to 16% or
:15:39. > :15:42.cut spending by 14% or a combination of the two, what would it be? We
:15:43. > :15:50.would deal with the deficit in the same way the UK is dealing with the
:15:51. > :15:56.deficit and dealt in the deficit -- with the deficit in 2009/ ten. We
:15:57. > :16:00.would be in the same position as many other countries but we would be
:16:01. > :16:05.in a position where we have got a fundamentally strong economy. I wish
:16:06. > :16:11.Scotland have voted yes in 2014, if it had done we would have spent the
:16:12. > :16:18.last almost two years preparing for Scotland becoming independent. In a
:16:19. > :16:23.negotiation around independence, there would have been discussions
:16:24. > :16:27.about assets, liability, the share of defence spending, so that's what
:16:28. > :16:31.would have been the case if we voted for independence. Looking ahead, we
:16:32. > :16:37.have a strong economy and the challenge is how we grow it even
:16:38. > :16:41.faster. You accept surely that you wouldn't be allowed to join the
:16:42. > :16:47.European Union with a 10% deficit, you would have to agree to Brussels
:16:48. > :16:53.programme, correct? We are getting into some ridiculous territory here
:16:54. > :16:57.and one of the most ridiculous arguments. Scotland wouldn't have
:16:58. > :17:02.been out of the EU, we wouldn't have been in the position of an accession
:17:03. > :17:06.state. It is a bit rich for anybody, given where we are right now, with
:17:07. > :17:10.the prospect of being taken out of the EU ahead of us, for
:17:11. > :17:17.scaremongering about the prospects of that. With two weeks to go until
:17:18. > :17:22.independence, instead of increases in public spending which you
:17:23. > :17:28.announced yesterday... They didn't vote yes. But if it had been, you
:17:29. > :17:32.would have been looking at the list of hospitals and schools to close,
:17:33. > :17:37.you would be the austerity party, that's what you would have to do.
:17:38. > :17:41.That's ridiculous. Countries the world over have deficits and deal
:17:42. > :17:46.with them. We would also have been taking on the greater powers to grow
:17:47. > :17:53.our economy, particularly our own short economy. Italy and Greece had
:17:54. > :17:59.10% deficit and you know the austerity they had to go through. I
:18:00. > :18:03.think this argument starts to tip over into being incredible, we start
:18:04. > :18:08.to compare Scotland, with all of the strength of the Scottish economy, to
:18:09. > :18:11.countries like Greece and Italy. I have spoken about the fundamental
:18:12. > :18:15.strengths of our economy, not least the fact we have had the longest
:18:16. > :18:22.period of economic growth since the devolution. You have said all of
:18:23. > :18:29.that. Yes, we have challenges, but Scotland has a strong economy. Then
:18:30. > :18:41.why do your revenues like you're spending by ?2400 per person? -- lag
:18:42. > :18:48.your spending. We have a deficit like many other countries... Nobody
:18:49. > :18:53.has a deficit like Scotland's. We have a particular issue because of
:18:54. > :18:57.the fall in North Sea revenues. It is an indictment of Westminster
:18:58. > :19:06.mismanagement that unlike Norway, we don't have a massive oil fund to
:19:07. > :19:09.help deal with that. Westminster is paying for your deficit, Westminster
:19:10. > :19:13.is paying for the difference for the rest of the deficit, would you like
:19:14. > :19:18.to thank the rest of the people of the United Kingdom for making up for
:19:19. > :19:24.the deficit you have got? Westminster has a deficit of its
:19:25. > :19:32.own, it is ?1 trillion in debt. That is not the deficit, that is the
:19:33. > :19:35.debt. That is why I said debt, I understand the difference between
:19:36. > :19:40.deficit and debt, but it has accumulated debt of ?1 trillion, it
:19:41. > :19:45.has an annual deficit just like Scotland and many other countries
:19:46. > :19:50.do. It is actually 1.5 trillion, even worse than you think. I was
:19:51. > :19:52.being kind to them, Andrew! You should be kind because they are
:19:53. > :19:56.saving you quite a bit of money! Does Labour have a problem dealing
:19:57. > :19:59.with allegations of anti-semitism? The party is worried enough to have
:20:00. > :20:01.established an inquiry into the Labour Club
:20:02. > :20:03.at Oxford University where there are accusations that
:20:04. > :20:05.members used off-colour language And the Sunday Politics has been
:20:06. > :20:08.told that the investigation will look at new claims
:20:09. > :20:13.from another university. It comes after an activist
:20:14. > :20:15.with controversial views was allowed back into the party then promptly
:20:16. > :20:18.chucked out again last week. Does Jeremy Corbyn's support
:20:19. > :20:22.for causes like the Palestinians or Stop The War mean he's not tough
:20:23. > :20:26.enough when there are allegations It's seen that way by some
:20:27. > :20:30.students at Oxford. Last month the vice-chair
:20:31. > :20:32.of the Labour club there resigned, claiming some members had a problem
:20:33. > :20:38.with Jews and used words like Zio, a nickname for Jewish people that
:20:39. > :20:41.many find offensive. It's now being investigated
:20:42. > :20:44.by the Labour peer Baroness Royle, who is also looking at the wider
:20:45. > :20:47.issue of behaviour in We understand she's now
:20:48. > :20:49.extended her investigation to include students
:20:50. > :20:52.at the London School of Economics. This week, they have been electing
:20:53. > :20:55.a new general secretary One of the candidates,
:20:56. > :21:02.Rayhan Uddin, who's also in the Labour group,
:21:03. > :21:04.has been criticised for some Facebook posts that emerged
:21:05. > :21:08.during the campaign. In one, he talked about leading
:21:09. > :21:11.Zionists wanting to take over the student union to make it right
:21:12. > :21:17.wing and Zio again. Facebook post:
:21:18. > :21:33.of language, writing in another He has been referred to Labour's
:21:34. > :21:34.investigation into student politics by someone
:21:35. > :21:38.who now works for an MP. We've seen the letter they wrote,
:21:39. > :21:48.which said: Because it was an older generation
:21:49. > :21:57.of activists that came up at Prime Minister's
:21:58. > :21:59.Questions this week. I was completely appalled to see
:22:00. > :22:02.yesterday that the Labour Party has readmitted someone to their party
:22:03. > :22:06.who says, and I believe that the 9/11 suicide bombers,
:22:07. > :22:12.and I quote, must never be condemned and belongs to an organisation that
:22:13. > :22:15.says "we defend the Islamic State He was referring to Gerry Downing,
:22:16. > :22:20.who had also blogged about what he called
:22:21. > :22:24.the Jewish question, after being readmitted to the party
:22:25. > :22:27.this week he was resuspended. He reckons it's really a battle
:22:28. > :22:31.between different wings in Labour. You've said there is a conspiracy
:22:32. > :22:34.of people out to get Jeremy Corbyn, Well, Dan Jarvis and these people
:22:35. > :22:39.of course, obviously there's the whole Blairite wing of the party
:22:40. > :22:45.and others, who have been absolutely disgusted at the membership
:22:46. > :23:01.and the left-wing surge Whereas the Labour MP Wes Streeting
:23:02. > :23:07.says there is a problem I think in certain parts
:23:08. > :23:10.of the British left, there has always been a virulent
:23:11. > :23:14.form of pretty bigoted politics, particularly in terms
:23:15. > :23:24.of anti-Semitism, which has been There's also a mentality
:23:25. > :23:37.which I think has been epitomised is simply not acceptable
:23:38. > :23:47.in the modern Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn's supporters,
:23:48. > :23:49.like those in the grass roots campaign group Momentum,
:23:50. > :23:54.say none of this is fair on him. Corbyn comes under the most
:23:55. > :23:56.incredible level of attacks and one of the things that he's attacked
:23:57. > :23:59.for is his long-standing commitment to anti-war, anti-imperialism,
:24:00. > :24:07.peace in the Middle East. And I think that's where some
:24:08. > :24:10.of this comes from. He does absolutely condemn
:24:11. > :24:12.anti-Semitism, he has time There is not a shred
:24:13. > :24:15.of anti-Semitism in his personal make-up, in his moral make-up
:24:16. > :24:20.or in his political make-up. And as for Labour's investigation
:24:21. > :24:22.into anti-Semitism among students, there's no time frame
:24:23. > :24:30.for when it will report. Let's speak now to the Labour MP,
:24:31. > :24:35.John Mann, who's chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group
:24:36. > :24:41.against Anti-Semitism. He's in Berlin at an
:24:42. > :24:50.Anti-Semitism Conference. Is there an anti-Semitism problem in
:24:51. > :24:52.the Labour Party? Of course, that's why these issues have got attention.
:24:53. > :24:58.It is not a big why these issues have got attention.
:24:59. > :25:05.problem when it comes to racism needs to be dealt with. We have been
:25:06. > :25:07.here before. I can recall 30 years ago when there were extremists
:25:08. > :25:12.trying to ban Jewish ago when there were extremists
:25:13. > :25:15.some of the universities, and we clamped down on them very hard then
:25:16. > :25:21.and they weren't in the Labour Party but it is the same kind of people,
:25:22. > :25:25.the same ideology. Some of that has crept into the Labour Party and it
:25:26. > :25:34.needs to be removed. Why has it come back? People could write big
:25:35. > :25:38.academic books on why it has re-surged but what we have seen in
:25:39. > :25:45.history is that anti-Semitism never seems to go away. But why in the
:25:46. > :25:48.Labour Party has come back? People have obviously chosen to dissociate
:25:49. > :25:51.with the Labour Party in the growth of membership, some of those people
:25:52. > :25:58.have attitudes that are very outdated and prejudiced. There is no
:25:59. > :26:03.space for them in the Labour Party and the reason that is important is
:26:04. > :26:06.because I am getting young Jewish activists posturing whether the
:26:07. > :26:11.Labour Party is the place for them in terms of their support, their
:26:12. > :26:20.vote and their activity, and we cannot tolerate a situation where
:26:21. > :26:23.any part of society doesn't feel that a major political party like
:26:24. > :26:27.the Labour Party is not the place for them, which is why prompt
:26:28. > :26:31.effective action and vigilance on this is required, including from
:26:32. > :26:38.Jeremy as the leader of the Labour Party. Is the Labour leader doing
:26:39. > :26:44.enough? Or the fact he has talked about his friends, Hamas, Hezbollah,
:26:45. > :26:51.and shared platforms with people who have been very hostile to Israel and
:26:52. > :26:55.so on, is that a disadvantage? Is it encouraging anti-Semitism or is it
:26:56. > :27:00.not relevant? I have met Jeremy recently to discuss anti-Semitism in
:27:01. > :27:05.the Labour Party and it is clear to me that he does not tolerate or
:27:06. > :27:10.support it but what he has to do is follow that free with actions and
:27:11. > :27:15.ensure that others in the Labour Party follow it through with actions
:27:16. > :27:20.because the kind of thing, the atmosphere that is being created in
:27:21. > :27:25.Oxford University is not a one-off. This has been happening elsewhere as
:27:26. > :27:30.well. While these can be seen as small incidents, if you are the
:27:31. > :27:37.young Jewish person who is impacted by it, it is not small for you and
:27:38. > :27:42.it is magnified in the universities, which are pretty tolerant places and
:27:43. > :27:46.rightly so, if there is in tolerance to any particular group and to
:27:47. > :27:50.Jewish students. We are not prepared to have that in the Labour Party,
:27:51. > :27:54.there has got to be action, it has got to be led from the front and it
:27:55. > :28:01.has got to be decisive action. There is no space for these people in the
:28:02. > :28:06.Labour Party or is there space for people in any way excusing their
:28:07. > :28:12.actions. But there is an inquiry into what has been going on at
:28:13. > :28:17.Oxford, but is your party doing enough about this? Because I
:28:18. > :28:20.understand these inquiries may be subsumed into a much bigger inquiry
:28:21. > :28:28.into bullying and so on. What is your feeling? It is action by
:28:29. > :28:30.results. If there is a decisive action, there will be an almighty
:28:31. > :28:38.row which wouldn't be helpful but the idea that those of us who fought
:28:39. > :28:43.over decades, challenging anti-Semitism and other forms of
:28:44. > :28:48.racism, are going to accept other than the highest of standards in our
:28:49. > :28:55.own party, well I can tell you it is going to happen. There are many of
:28:56. > :29:00.us who will only accept absolutely the highest standards. We are not
:29:01. > :29:05.prepared to tolerate any form of anti-Semitism or any excuse for it
:29:06. > :29:09.in the Labour Party or anywhere else in society. But in our own party
:29:10. > :29:14.absolutely not and therefore there has got to be action, words are not
:29:15. > :29:20.good enough. Historically the Labour Party has done well from the Jewish
:29:21. > :29:23.vote. The Jewish vote over time has tended to vote Labour. If this
:29:24. > :29:30.anti-Semitism continues in your party, are you in danger of losing
:29:31. > :29:34.the Jewish vote? We prepared a report ten years ago on a
:29:35. > :29:38.cross-party basis that highlighted anti-Semitism in all of its aspects
:29:39. > :29:42.including from the right but also what was described by some as the
:29:43. > :29:47.new anti-Semitism on the left. It is not new but it had been dormant for
:29:48. > :29:51.a long period of time. People have been accustomed to the Labour Party
:29:52. > :29:59.and that part of the left being highly tolerant to everybody. That
:30:00. > :30:03.has got to happen, you cannot have a progressive party of any substance
:30:04. > :30:07.in politics if it allows any form of intolerance and therefore we are not
:30:08. > :30:12.prepared to have second-class citizens, second-class form of
:30:13. > :30:17.racism allowed in the Labour Party. Anti-Semitism has got to be
:30:18. > :30:23.challenged, including anti-Semitism on the left, and so robustly and put
:30:24. > :30:31.back in the dustbin again. That is my intention in the Labour Party. I
:30:32. > :30:35.am looking forward to Jeremy and the National Executive being decisive,
:30:36. > :30:39.removing the anti-Semites, going into where there is intolerance and
:30:40. > :30:44.explaining what is anti-Semitism and why we are not prepared to have it
:30:45. > :30:47.in our party. Thanks for joining us this morning.
:30:48. > :30:49.Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell ran Jeremy Corbyn's
:30:50. > :30:51.leadership campaign on a platform fighting not just austerity,
:30:52. > :30:55.Now though, he wants to be the new voice of fiscal
:30:56. > :30:56.responsibility, and says he's going to re-write
:30:57. > :31:00.In a moment we'll be talking to John McDonnell's number two,
:31:01. > :31:02.the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
:31:03. > :31:04.But first let's hear what Mr McDonnell had to say
:31:05. > :31:07.It is a wider ambition then just Labour's fiscal credibility.
:31:08. > :31:11.I want to try to restore credibility to economic policy-making generally,
:31:12. > :31:13.not just within the Labour Party but across politics too.
:31:14. > :31:15.We have had too long, for example, the last six
:31:16. > :31:18.years we have had fiscal rules which have not been met,
:31:19. > :31:23.I am trying to encourage a better economic debate.
:31:24. > :31:27.What I have said is quite clearly, when we go back into government,
:31:28. > :31:30.we will eliminate the deficit, reduce debt, and will
:31:31. > :31:33.ensure that is supervised independently by the Office
:31:34. > :31:39.And Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Seema Malhotra,
:31:40. > :31:52.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. You would balance current spending with
:31:53. > :31:57.revenue and borrow to invest. How does that differ from Mr Brown and
:31:58. > :32:03.Mr balls? You are right about there being two key parts to the new
:32:04. > :32:07.fiscal credibility were all. In a sense, this builds on very much
:32:08. > :32:13.where we have been before. It also responds to the criticisms that were
:32:14. > :32:17.made of Jaws -- George Osborne's this school charter where he was
:32:18. > :32:23.criticised for tying his own hands and not allowing for investment. --
:32:24. > :32:27.fiscal charter. There are two key differences. It makes it more
:32:28. > :32:31.explicit, that there should be independent voices. We have said we
:32:32. > :32:35.want the OBR to be an independent voice around deficit reduction
:32:36. > :32:42.targets, and also reporting directly to Parliament. The second area is
:32:43. > :32:46.that we want to make sure there is the opportunity for investment and
:32:47. > :32:52.also, if there are difficult times, like we had in 2009, when monetary
:32:53. > :32:57.policy does not seem to be working, it gives an opportunity for fiscal
:32:58. > :33:02.policy to work alongside. It builds on but has two key differences. Mr
:33:03. > :33:17.Brown defended his rules as well when times got bad. It was described
:33:18. > :33:23.as being austerity light. This must be as well? It has been developed
:33:24. > :33:26.and the reason... It is not about austerity. It is a framework that
:33:27. > :33:32.will allow us to make spending and tax decisions in the future. It
:33:33. > :33:38.responds to the criticisms, the universal criticisms of George
:33:39. > :33:45.Osborne's this dull charter. -- fiscal charter. It says we need to
:33:46. > :33:51.invest for the future. I understand all that. Mr Brown and Mr Balls also
:33:52. > :33:56.wanted to invest and that was criticised by the Shadow Chancellor
:33:57. > :34:05.as austerity light. If that were austerity light, this is steroid to
:34:06. > :34:14.-- night as well. We're in a situation where George Osborne is
:34:15. > :34:22.blaming everyone but himself. -- this is austerity light as well.
:34:23. > :34:26.George Osborne's Member of Parliament for the Tory Party has
:34:27. > :34:30.said, what we have seen our warm words. He has talked about
:34:31. > :34:37.investment and an export led strategy. This is built on debts,
:34:38. > :34:44.household debt. How much is public investment? Around 30 billion, if
:34:45. > :34:50.you take into account the difference in spending. It is 34 billion in
:34:51. > :34:55.public spending at the moment. It should be much higher. How much more
:34:56. > :35:01.should it be? It should be higher. There is no excuse for what George
:35:02. > :35:06.Osborne has done. I am not asking about Mr Osborne. I am asking about
:35:07. > :35:11.your policy. 34 billion at the moment, rising to 40 billion by 20
:35:12. > :35:21.20. How much more would it be? It focuses on where it needs to be
:35:22. > :35:27.regarding GDP. You need to have a good level of investment so you are
:35:28. > :35:30.creating jobs for the future. What I am trying to work out is what this
:35:31. > :35:36.creating jobs for the future. What I means in hard cash for investment,
:35:37. > :35:39.how big would investment be under a Labour government? It is clear that
:35:40. > :35:45.George Osborne has been cutting investment. It was around 3%, 3.5%,
:35:46. > :35:51.and is now 1.4% in terms of infrastructure. If you want jobs of
:35:52. > :35:56.the future coming through, if you want to turn around the situation
:35:57. > :35:59.where young people... By how much more would public investment
:36:00. > :36:03.increase under this formula? What we have said is you need to make sure
:36:04. > :36:05.that we have a balance of where the economy needs investment so we can
:36:06. > :36:10.that we have a balance of where the get tax receipts and growth for the
:36:11. > :36:14.future. We had economists saying that George Osborne, if you talk
:36:15. > :36:17.about fairness in the future... I am here to talk about the labour policy
:36:18. > :36:23.and not that of George Osborne. Nor here to talk about the labour policy
:36:24. > :36:28.has there been balanced growth. If you want a balanced budget, you need
:36:29. > :36:35.to balance growth. Let's talk about labour. John McDonnell has talked
:36:36. > :36:38.about the difference between short-term and long-term investment.
:36:39. > :36:42.What is the difference? What we have said as she want to see investment
:36:43. > :36:48.that will see us having a big stake in the future. If you want to look
:36:49. > :36:57.at energy investment, you are talking out about -- about 20, 30
:36:58. > :37:02.years. It is about supporting companies, entrepreneurs and
:37:03. > :37:06.supporting the long-term growth for the country as well. If you're
:37:07. > :37:12.talking about rail, roads and infrastructure, you will be aware, I
:37:13. > :37:17.am sure, of the reports that showed recently we have fewer buses than
:37:18. > :37:21.2010, our rolling stock and trains are in poor condition, people are
:37:22. > :37:25.taking longer to get to work and the trains are more crowded. That should
:37:26. > :37:30.be a wake-up call to George Osborne he is not working in the interests
:37:31. > :37:35.of the British public and people are asking if the decisions are based on
:37:36. > :37:40.political interest and not on the country's future. You would balance
:37:41. > :37:46.current spending, day-to-day spending. At the moment there is a
:37:47. > :37:50.deficit. What would you cut to balance current spending? There are
:37:51. > :37:53.two things. The first is about spending decisions and the second
:37:54. > :38:00.about tax receipts. We are arguing that if you want to see tax receipts
:38:01. > :38:09.grow, George Osborne has seen them for in regard to productivity
:38:10. > :38:13.growth. What would you cut? We would want to see that growth increases in
:38:14. > :38:19.that you see an increase in tax receipts. You cannot spend if it is
:38:20. > :38:23.not within your means. What would you cut? You cannot spend if it is
:38:24. > :38:27.not within your means. What the announcement from the Labour Party
:38:28. > :38:31.is about is how we earn our way in the world and survived in a
:38:32. > :38:40.competitive economy. We will leave it there. Thank you very much.
:38:41. > :38:42.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:38:43. > :38:50.Coming up on the programme: Nicola Sturgeon delights party
:38:51. > :38:58.This summer, the SNP will embark on a new initiative to build support
:38:59. > :39:03.for independence. Nicola Sturgeon delights party members with that
:39:04. > :39:06.announcement at the SNP conference, but what exactly does it mean?
:39:07. > :39:09.And as she nears the end of her time as Presiding Officer,
:39:10. > :39:11.Tricia Marwick joins us to discuss how the workings
:39:12. > :39:13.of the Scottish Parliament can be improved.
:39:14. > :39:16.With the polls all showing the SNP are likely to win another majority
:39:17. > :39:18.in May and with their triumph in the General Election
:39:19. > :39:21.under their belt, it's hardly surprising the mood at the SNP
:39:22. > :39:24.During Nicola Sturgeon's speech yesterday, delegates applauded
:39:25. > :39:27.But their biggest cheers were for an issue where the party
:39:28. > :39:48.Our reporter Andrew Black's been soaking up the atmosphere.
:39:49. > :39:56.The SNP has now been in power since 2007. That is longer than any other
:39:57. > :40:00.party at Holyrood. In just a few months' time, it will ask voters to
:40:01. > :40:04.give it an unprecedented third term in office. At the moment, all the
:40:05. > :40:13.indications are that is exactly what will happen. Now, given all this
:40:14. > :40:18.celebration, you may well think the SNP membership, now at 115,000, is
:40:19. > :40:22.all singing from the same hymn sheet. But not entirely, because a
:40:23. > :40:27.lot of these new members have come to the conference wanting to have
:40:28. > :40:31.their say and managing their expectations has been an issue for
:40:32. > :40:35.the SNP leadership. And on that note, the very first delegate to
:40:36. > :40:41.speak at the conference had a problem with the agenda. With some
:40:42. > :40:45.exceptions, the overall tone of the motions is one of complacent
:40:46. > :40:49.self-congratulation. It pains me to say this. This conference is
:40:50. > :40:58.beginning to resemble the later party in the Tony Blair era. -- the
:40:59. > :41:02.Labour Party. I am grateful to Malcolm from making some of those
:41:03. > :41:07.points because we have heard them a number of times in recent years, and
:41:08. > :41:12.particularly with regard to the agenda in front of us. But what is a
:41:13. > :41:18.pre-election conference... Said agenda was duly approved and it was
:41:19. > :41:22.on the conference. Outside, a small-scale storm was brewing.
:41:23. > :41:27.Protesters called on the SNP Government to extend its temporary
:41:28. > :41:31.ban on fracking to a permanent one, a move favoured by some grassroots
:41:32. > :41:36.SNP members, although Scottish ministers say they are still
:41:37. > :41:41.assessing the situation. But the big issue on which SNP supporters want
:41:42. > :41:45.an answer is when might be another independence referendum. Nicola
:41:46. > :41:48.Sturgeon announced a plan for that and they liked what they heard. Our
:41:49. > :42:01.success will depend on the strength of our argument is and the clarity
:42:02. > :42:03.of a revision. It will mean convincing the people of this
:42:04. > :42:05.country that independence is right, not for yesterday's world, but for
:42:06. > :42:07.the complex, challenging and increasingly interdependent world
:42:08. > :42:12.that we live in today. And right also for the world that our children
:42:13. > :42:17.will inherit and live in tomorrow. Making and winning in that case is
:42:18. > :42:23.our challenge and our opportunity. That is why I can tell you today
:42:24. > :42:27.that this summer, the SNP will embark on a new initiative to build
:42:28. > :42:35.support for independence. APPLAUSE
:42:36. > :42:40.Afterwords, Nicola Sturgeon's Deputy elaborated on the initiative. What I
:42:41. > :42:45.want to signal is the willingness of the SNP to engage in an open
:42:46. > :42:48.conversation with the people of Scotland, to understand their
:42:49. > :42:56.concerns, to address those concerns and find ways of addressing those
:42:57. > :43:01.issues. There were some policy announcements. More resources for
:43:02. > :43:04.the NHS and education, and a commitment to delivering superfast
:43:05. > :43:09.broadband to all of Scotland. And even though at this stage it is
:43:10. > :43:13.unlikely the SNP will commit to a second referendum in its election
:43:14. > :43:15.manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon has once again put independence at the
:43:16. > :43:17.forefront of her party's ambition. And Andrew Black joins me now
:43:18. > :43:33.from the SNP conference at the SECC. What are they doing today, Andrew?
:43:34. > :43:38.In terms of the atmosphere here, and we are almost at the end of the
:43:39. > :43:43.Scottish party conference Spring season. We have already had the
:43:44. > :43:47.Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. In terms of the attendance and tone
:43:48. > :43:51.of those first two, they seemed pretty lacklustre compared to the
:43:52. > :43:56.SNP conference here, where thousands of delegates have attended. There
:43:57. > :44:00.has been the odd grumble, but really, overall, the atmosphere has
:44:01. > :44:04.been pretty upbeat. Yesterday, we had Nicola Sturgeon making that big
:44:05. > :44:08.announcement on the new drive towards independence. Today, things
:44:09. > :44:13.don't a different tone because first things first, there is a Holyrood
:44:14. > :44:15.election to fight. John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister, will deliver
:44:16. > :44:19.election to fight. John Swinney, the an election rally call to the
:44:20. > :44:24.conference this afternoon. They will show off their new candidates for
:44:25. > :44:27.the Holyrood election. It is a bit silly, the party itself would admit,
:44:28. > :44:34.to start setting targets for the amount of seats they will win in the
:44:35. > :44:39.election, but if you think back to the last election in Scotland, the
:44:40. > :44:43.SNP won almost all the seats in Scotland. Labour were just left with
:44:44. > :44:48.that one Westminster seat. I think it is pretty safe to say that going
:44:49. > :44:52.into the selection, we are still seeing the SNP with a huge load of
:44:53. > :44:58.popularity. They will certainly be hoping that they could when pretty
:44:59. > :44:59.much every single Holyrood constituency in May. Thanks for
:45:00. > :45:00.that. And I'm joined here in the studio
:45:01. > :45:02.by the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure,
:45:03. > :45:13.Investment and Cities, As we saw, Nicola Sturgeon God by
:45:14. > :45:19.far the biggest round of applause when she said there would be a new
:45:20. > :45:21.initiative on independence. What is it? Before I answer that question, I
:45:22. > :45:25.am the Member of Parliament for... it? Before I answer that question, I
:45:26. > :45:30.am sorry. I did mean to ask it? Before I answer that question, I
:45:31. > :45:33.about Dunblane. My apologies. I am the Member of Parliament for
:45:34. > :45:37.Clackmannanshire and Dunblane and today is the 20th anniversary.
:45:38. > :45:40.People in Dunblane, including the families, will have different ways
:45:41. > :45:46.of dealing with this. Some will want to speak about it and some will be
:45:47. > :45:49.quieter, but I think it is important that we remember and pursue a people
:45:50. > :45:55.involved in the tragedy that we will never forget what happened on that
:45:56. > :46:00.day back in 1986. You, presumably being there of the past period, is
:46:01. > :46:04.it possible to recover from something like that?
:46:05. > :46:07.it possible to recover from is very difficult for the families
:46:08. > :46:10.to recover. They have got personal tragedy to deal with. But the town
:46:11. > :46:14.itself has tragedy to deal with. But the town
:46:15. > :46:24.never forget what happened, of course.
:46:25. > :46:32.will never forget the individuals got
:46:33. > :46:42.will never forget the individuals back to the conference. This
:46:43. > :46:45.initiative, which got all the applause, what is it? You can get
:46:46. > :46:46.the shape of it from what the First Minister said yesterday and what the
:46:47. > :46:49.Deputy First Minister said. Minister said yesterday and what the
:46:50. > :46:51.which concerned people in Scotland about
:46:52. > :46:52.which concerned people in Scotland negatives and it is important we
:46:53. > :46:54.listen negatives and it is important we
:46:55. > :46:56.those who support independence but with those who
:46:57. > :46:58.those who support independence but independence if those concerns can
:46:59. > :47:01.be alleviated. That might mean that we have to change
:47:02. > :47:05.be alleviated. That might mean that stances in response
:47:06. > :47:09.be alleviated. That might mean that respect those who voted no and
:47:10. > :47:14.rebuilding a case for independence. Stances on what? That is the purpose
:47:15. > :47:19.of the engagement. We will see close engagement with the First Minister
:47:20. > :47:23.herself. What do you think? Why prejudge that's some of the concerns
:47:24. > :47:25.herself. What do you think? Why we have had have continued to be
:47:26. > :47:26.herself. What do you think? Why expressed as concerns, some of
:47:27. > :47:34.defence expressed as concerns, some of
:47:35. > :47:36.engagement in order to find out. A very obvious when you mentioned
:47:37. > :47:40.there is very obvious when you mentioned
:47:41. > :47:44.has talked about how, in the eventuality that Britain forced
:47:45. > :47:47.has talked about how, in the there will be pressure for another
:47:48. > :47:51.referendum, which would presumably be in some months' time. If there is
:47:52. > :47:55.one, which currency would you say we should be part of? The point I am
:47:56. > :47:59.just making is that we understand the fact that there were concerns
:48:00. > :48:03.people had and the purpose of what the First Minister said yesterday is
:48:04. > :48:11.to talk to these people and find out those concerns. Sure, but as the SNP
:48:12. > :48:13.leadership, you've had 14 months or something like that to think about
:48:14. > :48:16.this. What currency... I mean, if Britain was to leave the EU and
:48:17. > :48:22.Scotland is to have another independence referendum with a view
:48:23. > :48:26.to steam in the EU and becoming independent, you presumably would
:48:27. > :48:29.not be seen... Would you be saying that we should still have the pound
:48:30. > :48:33.and that all the politicians in London were lying when they were
:48:34. > :48:38.saying we couldn't? We have seen in the last week a statement to say
:48:39. > :48:42.that it was perfectly possible that the SNP's proposition could have
:48:43. > :48:52.been workable. But there are two very big Fs. If that is then
:48:53. > :48:55.followed by a vote on independence very soon thereafter... Rather than
:48:56. > :49:00.get into those hypotheticals, I think it is.... Hang on, this is a
:49:01. > :49:04.campaign you would have to be running within a matter of months. I
:49:05. > :49:09.have no way of knowing that. Nicola Sturgeon has said there would be
:49:10. > :49:13.pressure for another independence referendum should this eventuality
:49:14. > :49:17.arise. It is surely not unreasonable for myself and indeed for viewers to
:49:18. > :49:25.think that currency thing didn't go very well for them last time. What
:49:26. > :49:31.is their policy now? Our policy, as was explained during the campaign...
:49:32. > :49:36.Just to be clear on this, is your policy still that Scotland would be
:49:37. > :49:37.part of the sterling zone? You are asking what our policy might be in
:49:38. > :49:42.the event of a future referendum. asking what our policy might be in
:49:43. > :49:44.am asking what the policy is now. You have asked me and I am trying to
:49:45. > :49:49.get a sentence out. The fact is, we You have asked me and I am trying to
:49:50. > :49:53.do not face a referendum just now. What we are meant to do in the
:49:54. > :49:56.course of anticipating a further referendum is to get the views of
:49:57. > :50:01.people, especially those we failed to convince in the past. That
:50:02. > :50:05.respect those who voted no. You asked about the last 14 months. We
:50:06. > :50:10.have been getting on and governing this country. The opposition parties
:50:11. > :50:12.have lined up to say forget about the referendum, forget about the
:50:13. > :50:17.constitution and run the country. We have been doing that very
:50:18. > :50:20.effectively. I do not understand. My question was is it still SNP policy
:50:21. > :50:33.that an independent Scotland would There have been a number of comments
:50:34. > :50:39.made. The policy was perfectly workable. We wanted to listen to
:50:40. > :50:44.people which is what the First Minister said yesterday. In addition
:50:45. > :50:51.to a very good track record in governing the country. We want to
:50:52. > :50:58.move forward. This initiative, talking to people, what does that
:50:59. > :51:03.mean? Coffee mornings, rallies? We will have more detail on that at the
:51:04. > :51:09.manifesto launch. Of course it is talking to people, not just rallies,
:51:10. > :51:13.we have to talk not just at people but to people. I would hope it is
:51:14. > :51:17.not just outputting to people but we do that all the time and accumulate
:51:18. > :51:23.intelligence. This would be a continuation of that with the very
:51:24. > :51:27.clear focus. After the referendum on talking to those people that had
:51:28. > :51:33.concerns about the referendum. Do you think there should be another
:51:34. > :51:36.referendum within the next period of the Scottish Parliament? I said this
:51:37. > :51:39.on the very morning of the referendum, it has got to be at the
:51:40. > :51:46.point the people of Scotland see there should be one. All ratings is
:51:47. > :51:50.one way to take the temperature. It could be because of a material
:51:51. > :51:58.change in circumstances such as the one you recommended. Labour are
:51:59. > :52:07.proposing is losing the top rate of tax in Scotland, back up to 50p, is
:52:08. > :52:11.that a good idea? We will wait until we have our manifesto before we
:52:12. > :52:15.decide what to do with the tax powers. We will not be imposing
:52:16. > :52:21.further tax increases on those on the lower rungs and also not having
:52:22. > :52:26.tax cuts for those on the higher levels of taxation. We will wait
:52:27. > :52:30.until we have the manifesto before really a proposal then tens of tax.
:52:31. > :52:34.until we have the manifesto before Will newly out the proposals in your
:52:35. > :52:40.manifesto on what you will do with the new powers coming out under the
:52:41. > :52:43.Scotland Bill? If we have not bought an agreement through the work of
:52:44. > :52:49.sturgeon and Swinney through the fiscal framework we will not do that
:52:50. > :52:55.as a reason to lay out we will be doing it because of the manifesto.
:52:56. > :53:02.Let me give you one example. George Osborne intends to raise the
:53:03. > :53:07.threshold at which you start paying 40p tax to 50,000. Is that something
:53:08. > :53:12.you think should happen in Scotland? I tend not to go with what George
:53:13. > :53:15.Osborne is reported to be going to do. That is why we will await
:53:16. > :53:22.Osborne is reported to be going to proposals. Nicola Sturgeon said we
:53:23. > :53:27.will await. He has already said that. He has said lots of things in
:53:28. > :53:32.the past. It is only after we know the tax proposals in the budget we
:53:33. > :53:36.can put forward the tax proposals we have an response. Would you be
:53:37. > :53:45.comfortably raising? We might have to change tax allowances. That is
:53:46. > :53:47.before tax calculations. Andrew Neil was talking about the budget deficit
:53:48. > :53:48.Scotland might have in ten days' was talking about the budget deficit
:53:49. > :53:54.time if they had become independent, was talking about the budget deficit
:53:55. > :53:57.never sent of GDP. Nicola Sturgeon said on this programme before the
:53:58. > :53:58.general election you borrow the money, it needs to borrow the money
:53:59. > :54:03.but there's also desktop of if we money, it needs to borrow the money
:54:04. > :54:06.were an independent Scotland we would do all these things which
:54:07. > :54:11.would make the economy grow faster than the rest of the UK so we cut
:54:12. > :54:17.that deficit, can you give me a single example of something you
:54:18. > :54:21.would do? I can give you a number, you have had a substantial cut in
:54:22. > :54:26.our programme in Scotland since 2010 and we have increased deployment,
:54:27. > :54:29.the highest climate in the UK. You would have to grow this economy
:54:30. > :54:36.faster than the UK, give me one example. We have increased
:54:37. > :54:42.appointment and population is not falling. One of the ways you could
:54:43. > :54:44.do that is APD, it proposal that is having a substantial impact on
:54:45. > :54:49.do that is APD, it proposal that is economy. Cutting carbon capture or
:54:50. > :54:55.renewables. Investing in infrastructure of course you can
:54:56. > :55:03.grow the economy. Your answer to how to get over the deficit is we would
:55:04. > :55:06.all more money? We have shown infrastructure projects without
:55:07. > :55:09.increasing public sector borrowing, it is possible to do that, it is
:55:10. > :55:14.what we have done and will continue to do.
:55:15. > :55:17.The Chancellor has been sounding an ominous note ahead of his budget
:55:18. > :55:19.on Wednesday, warning of further spending cuts.
:55:20. > :55:21.Speaking on the Andrew Marr programme this morning,
:55:22. > :55:23.George Osborne said he wanted to cut 50p from every ?100 spent
:55:24. > :55:25.by the Government by the end of 2020.
:55:26. > :55:27.I'm joined now from London by Robert Hutton
:55:28. > :55:36.Presumably you heard what George Osborne had to see earlier on, what
:55:37. > :55:40.do you make of it? It is a frightening world idea. That is his
:55:41. > :55:45.message at the moment, the phrase cocktail of risks which we have been
:55:46. > :55:49.hearing and I think we'll hear for a while longer. It is to try to get
:55:50. > :55:55.around the fact is forecasts are not coming in. That is as even if you
:55:56. > :56:00.months ago he hoped the wood. He has got to find another 18 billion more
:56:01. > :56:04.or less from savings and tax rises and the best way to
:56:05. > :56:14.or less from savings and tax rises the public, he seems to feel, is
:56:15. > :56:20.or less from savings and tax rises about the
:56:21. > :56:21.or less from savings and tax rises impression I got this morning that
:56:22. > :56:30.he might impression I got this morning that
:56:31. > :56:32.what you think? The problem he has got, normally the first proper
:56:33. > :56:37.budget one year into got, normally the first proper
:56:38. > :56:40.government is when you do all the painful and unpopular stuff
:56:41. > :56:41.government is when you do all the basis you have then got three or
:56:42. > :56:45.four years for the voters basis you have then got three or
:56:46. > :56:51.about it. The problem he has this time as the European referendum with
:56:52. > :56:55.it turns out Cameron and Osborne slightly misjudged where the
:56:56. > :56:56.it turns out Cameron and Osborne Parliamentary party is. Half of the
:56:57. > :56:59.Parliamentary party is on the other Parliamentary party is. Half of the
:57:00. > :57:05.trying to buy them off to do that is a cut to the headline
:57:06. > :57:08.rate of personal tax. to do that is a cut to the headline
:57:09. > :57:12.will be a rabbit. We to do that is a cut to the headline
:57:13. > :57:15.what the rabbit is back after half an hour of the budget he
:57:16. > :57:15.what the rabbit is back after half something out
:57:16. > :57:23.what the rabbit is back after half do with a rabbit with
:57:24. > :57:23.what the rabbit is back after half flag attached to each year. One
:57:24. > :57:25.thing being flag attached to each year. One
:57:26. > :57:32.example he could ask the old BR to flag attached to each year. One
:57:33. > :57:41.Brexit. I would not be surprised if there was
:57:42. > :57:43.his prebudget debate today turned into an about Europe. That might
:57:44. > :57:47.upset some of the dumpy Tories who into an about Europe. That might
:57:48. > :57:52.feel that the government should stay out of this debate about the
:57:53. > :58:01.nation's future. He would be upset that they use the OBR to do that. It
:58:02. > :58:06.is that they use the OBR to do that. It
:58:07. > :58:11.ask them? Is there an opportunity for Labour here as was mentioned in
:58:12. > :58:19.Andrews programme earlier? It has been a swing among the economy and
:58:20. > :58:24.in no warnings that monetary policy and quantitative easing might not be
:58:25. > :58:32.enough to get it back on its feet. There should be a move
:58:33. > :58:36.enough to get it back on its feet. economy. Labour can sort of say now
:58:37. > :58:38.we are not just wild eyed left-wingers but the major
:58:39. > :58:46.international organisations are now saying what we are saying? The
:58:47. > :58:49.Labour Party over the last five years have seen a really good
:58:50. > :58:53.sensible international economic argument that says these kinds of
:58:54. > :58:58.incredibly low interest rates, startling growth, this is time for
:58:59. > :59:01.the government to step in, billboards, build houses, spend
:59:02. > :59:06.money, put people back to work. It billboards, build houses, spend
:59:07. > :59:10.does not cost much as when interest rates are higher and you can
:59:11. > :59:15.stimulate the economy that way. That is what was being said on Friday and
:59:16. > :59:19.the problem is for Labour turning that sensible economic argument into
:59:20. > :59:26.a widely should be in government and can you trust us kind of argument.
:59:27. > :59:32.That is a much trickier problem. That, as it were, is about the whole
:59:33. > :59:35.package. It is not enough just for Labour to say sensible things that
:59:36. > :59:40.they can say look at all these economists who agree with us but
:59:41. > :59:43.they have got to say to the public you can trust us, when I am tough
:59:44. > :59:48.they have got to say to the public you can trust me and I really mean
:59:49. > :59:50.it. Thank you for joining us this morning.
:59:51. > :59:52.The Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament,
:59:53. > :59:54.Tricia Marwick, is standing down as an MSP at the coming election.
:59:55. > :59:58.But she believes work to improve how business is done at Holyrood needs
:59:59. > :00:00.to continue, and among the possible reforms she suggests
:00:01. > :00:03.Ms Marwick is the fourth Presiding Officer, but the first
:00:04. > :00:11.woman to take on the role, which she's held since 2011.
:00:12. > :00:21.Tricia Marwick is elected as Presiding Officer of the Scottish
:00:22. > :00:28.Parliament. There is far too much shouting across the chamber. And the
:00:29. > :00:39.marriage and civil partnership Scotland Bill is passed. Can I
:00:40. > :00:42.suggest that members review the footage of First Minister's
:00:43. > :00:55.Questions and consider whether they showed themselves and this
:00:56. > :00:55.parliament in the best light? Before I
:00:56. > :01:00.end First Minister's Questions, can I thank all of the party leaders for
:01:01. > :01:13.their brevity today? You floated the idea, didn't you,
:01:14. > :01:18.the second chamber in the Scottish Parliament but you also seem to
:01:19. > :01:23.concede it is not going to happen? It was in response to a journalist
:01:24. > :01:27.asking if they should be a second chamber and I said I have always
:01:28. > :01:31.believed there should be a second chamber but I have also acknowledged
:01:32. > :01:34.until you work out how that second chamber is working it is not going
:01:35. > :01:40.to happen. Politicians will be going to the public saying we need more
:01:41. > :01:44.politicians? I think if you argue for an increase in the number of
:01:45. > :01:48.members in the Scottish Parliament or arguing for a second chamber, you
:01:49. > :01:53.need to be very clear what those arguments are and be very sure you
:01:54. > :01:56.have all-party support for them because if one party made such an
:01:57. > :02:02.argument I imagine it would not go down well on the doorsteps. Do you
:02:03. > :02:07.think there is a case for getting all the parties together and saying
:02:08. > :02:09.we need a proper second chamber in the Scottish Parliament, let's
:02:10. > :02:16.discuss how we do it and make a joint approach to the public and say
:02:17. > :02:21.actually, folks, this is what we need? I think that is a matter for
:02:22. > :02:25.the future. We need to continue to perform procedures and structures
:02:26. > :02:31.within the Scottish Parliament itself. I would suggest that is the
:02:32. > :02:37.number one priority. The problem is that the underlying problem is that
:02:38. > :02:40.there was this hope in 1999 that the committee system of the Scottish
:02:41. > :02:46.Parliament would be different from the House of Commons in London.
:02:47. > :02:50.Actually, it has not really been. Arguably bodies like the Finance
:02:51. > :02:53.committee in the House of Commons, the way it held ministers to account
:02:54. > :02:59.during and after the financial crisis, have operated better than
:03:00. > :03:05.anything that has happened in Holyrood? I think it was the desire
:03:06. > :03:07.from the constitutional committee to do things different from
:03:08. > :03:14.Westminster, we ended up with the system that was different from the
:03:15. > :03:17.standing committees at Westminster. That presents problems because the
:03:18. > :03:25.committees at Westminster you talk about that have been extremely
:03:26. > :03:29.effective ID select committees -- have been the select committees and
:03:30. > :03:33.do not have a legislative role as well so they of course can do more
:03:34. > :03:40.in terms of interrogation, holding the government to account than a
:03:41. > :03:43.midi of the Scottish Parliament that has two consider legislation, called
:03:44. > :03:48.ministers to account, all their own enquiries and initiate the on
:03:49. > :03:54.legislation. The reality of the situation is that since 1999 the
:03:55. > :04:00.committees have never worked in the week the CSG envisaged that they
:04:01. > :04:05.should. I think it is fair to say that the administration of those
:04:06. > :04:08.committees by the CSG and others were seriously misplaced. Part of
:04:09. > :04:13.the problem is the Scottish Parliament was not designed for a
:04:14. > :04:17.party having a majority. It so happens your party have bought a
:04:18. > :04:25.majority but in a way that is not the point. What has happened as the
:04:26. > :04:29.perception of the public is that parties are just falling party
:04:30. > :04:33.lines. We have talked about the houses of commons early in his term
:04:34. > :04:38.but that has not really happened, we have not really had Labour people
:04:39. > :04:43.standing up and criticising the previously but administration or the
:04:44. > :04:50.SNP people standing up saying this is not good enough. I do not have a
:04:51. > :04:56.party, I gave up my party in 2011. Your background! I think for
:04:57. > :05:02.accuracy, I think you know the point I am making is that it is difficult
:05:03. > :05:07.for the communities to do all of these things. That has been true
:05:08. > :05:12.since 1999 as you rightly point out. If the government wants to get its
:05:13. > :05:17.own legislation through. The point I'm making is that in Westminster
:05:18. > :05:21.you have select committees where legislation is not dependent on it
:05:22. > :05:26.so, of course, people can be a lot more critical.
:05:27. > :05:32.Is it possible to have a similar system here? These committees are
:05:33. > :05:37.not working. I have tried for the past five years to get all parties
:05:38. > :05:45.to address the need for formal committees. That has not been a
:05:46. > :05:48.battle but I have one. But I am confident that the time of committee
:05:49. > :05:54.reform is yet to come and it will come because it needs to. Forget all
:05:55. > :05:59.that. What are you going to do? I have not a clue. I have absolutely
:06:00. > :06:06.no plans whatsoever. I hope that I will still have some sort of role in
:06:07. > :06:11.public life. I am open to offers. I do not get a pension until I am 65.
:06:12. > :06:15.You do not want to get involved in politics. You left the SNP because
:06:16. > :06:20.you'd became Presiding Officer. But you do not want to rejoin? I do not
:06:21. > :06:26.intend to stand for any elected office in the future. Once you have
:06:27. > :06:31.been the Presiding Officer, everything else is second to that.
:06:32. > :06:33.Anyone thinking of setting up grand public bodies should be listening
:06:34. > :06:39.very closely to what you have just said. You are available. I would
:06:40. > :06:43.hope that I have got some skills and qualities that people might find
:06:44. > :06:45.attractive. Tricia Myrick, thank you very much indeed.
:06:46. > :06:48.Time now to take a look at the week's big stories,
:06:49. > :06:55.and what's coming up in the week ahead.
:06:56. > :07:01.And I'm joined from the SNP conference by the press
:07:02. > :07:03.Association's Lynsey Bews and by the political editor of the Career,
:07:04. > :07:11.Kieran Andrews. Give us a bit of atmosphere. One of
:07:12. > :07:15.the things John Swinney said yesterday was that he reckoned the
:07:16. > :07:20.SNP conference was not just bigger than Labour, but bigger than all the
:07:21. > :07:25.other party conferences combined. Well, there is rather be a bit of
:07:26. > :07:32.truth in that. It is a massive venue here. It is packed. Fringe events
:07:33. > :07:37.are overflowing. There really is a bit of buzz around here. That bars,
:07:38. > :07:43.funnily enough, during the cluster Jim's speech yesterday came during a
:07:44. > :07:46.mention of independence, not during the mention of three key domestic
:07:47. > :07:56.policies. There is an segment and anticipation. -- there is
:07:57. > :08:01.excitement. We mentioned a delegate getting up and criticising the party
:08:02. > :08:06.for being too easy on itself with its agenda and harking back to Tony
:08:07. > :08:11.Blair, which is practically heresy in these parts with the SNP.
:08:12. > :08:17.Overall, though, the atmosphere has been quite good and positive. More
:08:18. > :08:23.charged than the SNP's opponent conferences. Lynsey, as keirin said
:08:24. > :08:27.there, the biggest applause was for the mention of independence. I do
:08:28. > :08:32.not know if you heard the view we did with Keith Brown, but at the end
:08:33. > :08:34.I was not sure if I was any I was at the beginning exactly what this
:08:35. > :08:40.initiative is other than talking about independence. No, exactly.
:08:41. > :08:44.Just when you thought that independence was off the agenda and
:08:45. > :08:48.Nicola Sturgeon was perhaps concentrating more on the new powers
:08:49. > :08:52.coming to Holyrood, and what she will do with those powers, she
:08:53. > :08:56.announced this initiative for building the case again for
:08:57. > :09:00.independence. As Keith Brown was failing to tell you, really, the SNP
:09:01. > :09:04.has not really given us much detail about what this initiative will
:09:05. > :09:09.involve. What we can garner from what Nicholas Turgeon said yesterday
:09:10. > :09:15.is that this will be a different approach in terms of tone. -- from
:09:16. > :09:19.what Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday. Maybe a move away from the very
:09:20. > :09:26.antagonistic, polarising debate we had leading up to the 2014 fold.
:09:27. > :09:29.Really, a bit of an omission from Nicola Sturgeon yesterday that there
:09:30. > :09:33.are some serious, key issues that need to be addressed in the case for
:09:34. > :09:39.independence before she can secure that yes vote. The problem is that
:09:40. > :09:43.if this was really just code for some of our arguments were not very
:09:44. > :09:48.convincing, we will come up with some new ones, that's not really
:09:49. > :09:51.going to satisfy, is it, the people who were wildly cheering what they
:09:52. > :09:58.thought was good to be some big new campaign? Yes, but I think Nicola
:09:59. > :10:01.Sturgeon is really trying to tell her supporters that they need to
:10:02. > :10:09.play the long game on this. Even if there is a Brexit and a second
:10:10. > :10:12.referendum was put forward, there are still key issues which need to
:10:13. > :10:15.be addressed which will not go away. The SNP will be challenged on these
:10:16. > :10:19.be addressed which will not go away. again if there was to be a second
:10:20. > :10:23.referendum. She is really laying the groundwork for a looking again at
:10:24. > :10:28.some of those policy positions the SNP have taken. Clearly, there has
:10:29. > :10:33.been a detailed postmortem of what went wrong in that independence
:10:34. > :10:39.referendum of 2014. Nicola Sturgeon is recognising there are key issues
:10:40. > :10:42.which need to be revisited and challenged. She said the SNP was
:10:43. > :10:49.prepared to change some of its answers. Presumably, Kieran Andrews,
:10:50. > :10:52.this is a bit of a challenge. The SNP are any great position with
:10:53. > :10:57.thousands of new members. The challenge is keeping them. All this
:10:58. > :11:01.talk about new benefits for children and all the rest, I am sure all the
:11:02. > :11:07.delegates agree with that. They all agree with things like air passenger
:11:08. > :11:11.duty. But it is not what gets them out of bed in the morning, is it? It
:11:12. > :11:17.will not keep them excited. It certainly isn't. And it is not why
:11:18. > :11:20.so many new members joined the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon is walking a bit of
:11:21. > :11:25.a tightrope on this. She has to decide when she wants another
:11:26. > :11:37.call another referendum is the mac call another referendum is the mac
:11:38. > :11:40.-- independence referendum. If a second referendum is lost, then it
:11:41. > :11:48.is off the table for a proper generation, not to the fuzzy version
:11:49. > :11:51.we have had promised so far. But the longer she weaves it, the more she
:11:52. > :11:58.risks antagonising those new members who joined to declare independence,
:11:59. > :12:06.to fight for the yes cause, as it were. You can imagine that if Nicola
:12:07. > :12:11.Sturgeon is not careful, little factions might begin to break off,
:12:12. > :12:15.break away and show a little bit more of the descent we saw yesterday
:12:16. > :12:22.morning over the coming years. It is a difficult one to play, balancing
:12:23. > :12:27.political reality with the fervour of members and a new grassroots
:12:28. > :12:34.members. Lynsey, on taxation and what they will do with new powers,
:12:35. > :12:37.it is all terribly cautious. They say they will not release their
:12:38. > :12:40.manifesto until they release their manifesto. Unless they have got
:12:41. > :12:47.something hidden away, it is basically don't frighten the horses,
:12:48. > :12:50.isn't it? It seems that way. Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday they would
:12:51. > :12:56.be no change to the basic rate of tax. They are against the policy put
:12:57. > :13:04.forward by Scottish Labour and by the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Also
:13:05. > :13:07.kicking into... Taking a decision only 40p threshold and waiting to
:13:08. > :13:13.see what George Osborne does with that in the budget. We already know
:13:14. > :13:18.those plans for the top rate, sorry, for the 40p rate of tax. John
:13:19. > :13:22.Swinney did tell us that if the fiscal framework was agreed, we
:13:23. > :13:26.would get more detail on the SNP's new tax plans by mid-March. I am
:13:27. > :13:29.sorry, I do not mean to cut a cross but we're running out of time.
:13:30. > :13:30.Lynsey Bews and Kieran Andrews, but we're running out of time.
:13:31. > :13:32.thank you both for joining us. Now, before we go, as part
:13:33. > :13:35.of our Holyrood election coverage, BBC Scotland has announced two
:13:36. > :13:37.televised Scottish leaders debates. The first takes place on the 24th
:13:38. > :13:39.of March in Glasgow. If you'd like to apply to be
:13:40. > :13:42.part of the audience, you can find the details on our BBC
:13:43. > :13:44.Scotland news website. I'll be back at the
:13:45. > :13:49.same time next week. What will he say this time about
:13:50. > :14:05.the state of the British economy, and what will that mean for you
:14:06. > :14:08.and your family's finances? Join me, Huw Edwards, for
:14:09. > :14:13.live coverage and expert analysis.