:00:38. > :00:42.David Cameron thinks we'll be stronger, safer
:00:43. > :00:48.Leave campaigners say the real risk would be a vote to remain.
:00:49. > :00:52.So what are the dangers if we decide to stay?
:00:53. > :00:56.On his final presidential visit to the UK, Barack Obama
:00:57. > :00:59.will back the idea of Britain remaining in the EU.
:01:00. > :01:03.But is the leader of the free world right to wade into our debate?
:01:04. > :01:06.And before the referendum, there's the small matter
:01:07. > :01:09.of national and local elections right across the UK.
:01:10. > :01:13.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:14. > :01:16.We continue our series of interviews with the Scottish party leaders.
:01:17. > :01:20.by the Lib Dems' Willie Rennie and by the Scottish
:01:21. > :01:27.we hear from mayoral hopefuls Sian Berry of the Greens
:01:28. > :01:35.And with me, as always, our panel of the best and brightest
:01:36. > :01:37.political brains in the business, Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:38. > :01:48.Now, the referendum isn't the only vote looming on the horizon.
:01:49. > :01:51.Before the EU vote on June 23rd, voters across the UK will get
:01:52. > :01:54.a chance to cast their ballot in a range of elections
:01:55. > :01:58.There are seven sets of elections happening in May,
:01:59. > :02:00.all of which will take place on the same day,
:02:01. > :02:05.Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will hold national elections.
:02:06. > :02:09.There are 60 seats up for grabs in the Welsh Assembly.
:02:10. > :02:12.The Scottish Parliament, in which the SNP has held
:02:13. > :02:17.a majority since 2011, will elect 129 members,
:02:18. > :02:20.and in Northern Ireland, there are 108 seats that will be
:02:21. > :02:27.decided for representatives to the assembly at Stormont.
:02:28. > :02:31.124 councils have seats up for election.
:02:32. > :02:33.35 metropolitan councils, 19 unitary authorities
:02:34. > :02:36.and 70 district councils, and four cities in England
:02:37. > :02:59.will elect mayors, London, Bristol, Liverpool and Salford.
:03:00. > :03:02.Londoners will also elect members to the London Assembly
:03:03. > :03:05.Finally, voters in 41 police force areas in England and Wales
:03:06. > :03:07.will elect a Police And Crime Commissioner.
:03:08. > :03:09.Joining me now from Glasgow is our election guru,
:03:10. > :03:10.Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University.
:03:11. > :03:14.Let's start with the local elections in England. How should we judge the
:03:15. > :03:18.performance of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party in these elections? We
:03:19. > :03:26.have to appreciate that the seats up for grabs on me the these elections
:03:27. > :03:32.were for the most part fought for three year is ago. We are looking at
:03:33. > :03:35.the time of George Osborne's so-called a shambles budget when
:03:36. > :03:40.support for the Conservatives fell away. These were the only set of
:03:41. > :03:43.elections during the last parliament where the Labour Party began to put
:03:44. > :03:46.in a performance where you might have thought they would have been
:03:47. > :03:52.capable of winning the next election. Jeremy Corbyn's
:03:53. > :03:57.misfortune, he is defending not a brilliant baseline, but a relatively
:03:58. > :04:02.good one. Labour six or seven points ahead, as judged by their share of
:04:03. > :04:07.the vote. The truth is that Jeremy Corbyn is not 67 points ahead. In
:04:08. > :04:13.contrast to what we might have expected a few weeks ago, he is no
:04:14. > :04:17.longer 67 points behind. Labour and the Conservatives seem to be quite
:04:18. > :04:23.close to each other. That means that in practice Mr Corbyn may well be
:04:24. > :04:27.facing losses. The figure of 150 has been bandied around. Will that be
:04:28. > :04:32.good? Better than it might have been a few weeks ago. Is it the sort of
:04:33. > :04:39.performance to persuade you that the Labour Party is on course to win the
:04:40. > :04:43.general election? Certainly not. Is the biggest threat that they would
:04:44. > :04:48.lose London, and would that be unlikely? I agree it would be
:04:49. > :04:53.unlikely. If they were to fail to win the London mayoral election,
:04:54. > :05:00.that would be a serious reverse for Labour. Back in 2012, although Boris
:05:01. > :05:05.Johnson on the London mayoral election, Labour was clearly ahead
:05:06. > :05:11.in the parallel election. Neither Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate,
:05:12. > :05:16.Northside Goldsmith, the concerted of the -- the Conservative
:05:17. > :05:19.candidate, has the same kind of attractiveness to the public. Labour
:05:20. > :05:26.did relatively well in London 12 months ago. If David Cameron were
:05:27. > :05:34.not to win that election, Labour would have questions to ask itself.
:05:35. > :05:39.Could Labour even come third behind the Scottish Tories? The answer is
:05:40. > :05:42.that they could. There is another opinion poll lead this morning that
:05:43. > :05:50.put Labour on the Conservatives neck and neck with each other. Some
:05:51. > :05:54.opinion polls put Labour and the Conservatives together, but not by
:05:55. > :05:58.much. Labour neglect the heading for a very bad performance. It would be
:05:59. > :06:04.the worst result in any election since 1918. I do not think it will
:06:05. > :06:07.tell you much about Jeremy Corbyn and his popularity. We have to
:06:08. > :06:09.remember that what happens in Scotland is very distinct and
:06:10. > :06:15.separate from what happens in the rest of the UK. The election in
:06:16. > :06:21.Scotland is going to be, primarily, framed by people's views about
:06:22. > :06:25.independence. The truth is the overall majority of people that
:06:26. > :06:29.voted for independence are still determined to vote for the SNP. So
:06:30. > :06:34.long as that remains the case, Labour will struggle another the
:06:35. > :06:37.border. It has to do with Scottish politics and little to do with what
:06:38. > :06:43.is happening in the rest of the UK. Is there really a Ukip surge in
:06:44. > :06:48.Wales? The opinion polls suggest that Ukip are doing well in Wales.
:06:49. > :06:53.But that is roughly where the opinion polls are putting Ukip
:06:54. > :06:57.across the UK as a whole. In Wales, as in Scotland, and the London
:06:58. > :07:05.assembly elections, the elections are being held by proportional
:07:06. > :07:08.representation, not first past the post, so if Ukip can get the 15%
:07:09. > :07:10.that the opinion polls suggest that the might get, they will get
:07:11. > :07:14.significant representation in the Welsh assembly. Getting Ukip grade
:07:15. > :07:19.is one of the things in which the opinion polls tend to disagree with
:07:20. > :07:23.each other. Ukip will perhaps not do as well as that, they will get some
:07:24. > :07:30.seats, but perhaps not as well as the parties hoping. Northern
:07:31. > :07:34.Ireland, and the executive almost collapsed there last year. Will the
:07:35. > :07:40.turmoil at Stormont, is it likely expected to change people's voting
:07:41. > :07:46.patterns this time? We not expecting a vast in Northern Ireland. Not only
:07:47. > :07:55.is the assembly elected proportionally, but so is the
:07:56. > :07:58.elected -- the executive. The larger of the two Unionist parties and the
:07:59. > :08:02.Nationalist parties might not be quite as strong as last time. No one
:08:03. > :08:07.is expecting very much in way of a major change. Thank you for joining
:08:08. > :08:12.us. Nick Watt, let me come to you. These elections are widely being
:08:13. > :08:17.seen as Mr Corbyn's first serious test. What a Labour's real
:08:18. > :08:22.expectations? The expectation is there going to do badly in Scotland.
:08:23. > :08:27.That is in. They will do badly in Wales but the expecting that. They
:08:28. > :08:31.will not admit that they could do very badly in the English local
:08:32. > :08:35.elections, and that they could lose seats. If the Labour Party lost
:08:36. > :08:39.seats in the local elections, it would be the first time since 1985
:08:40. > :08:44.that an opposition party had suffered losses in local elections
:08:45. > :08:49.in a non-general election year. It would be woolly bad. What did is
:08:50. > :08:54.down two at the end of the day, I know we should not wish think about
:08:55. > :08:59.London, a great picture of Glasgow behind John Curtice, but it is down
:09:00. > :09:04.to London. Jeremy Corbyn needs one victory and he looks like he will
:09:05. > :09:08.get one, Sadiq Khan in London. That will probably enough. He can do
:09:09. > :09:14.badly everywhere else but as long as he holds onto London years save? I
:09:15. > :09:19.think because the others are just priced in. If he can be seen to
:09:20. > :09:23.notch up one victory, it is a bit like the old and Royston by-election
:09:24. > :09:29.at the end of last year. Everyone assumes that they will do badly.
:09:30. > :09:33.They did well, it stabilises the leadership. He would probably be
:09:34. > :09:38.safe even if you lost London? I think he would be. Those who would
:09:39. > :09:40.like to see the back of have the difficulty that essentially his
:09:41. > :09:45.supporters control the party membership. It is an interesting
:09:46. > :09:50.question, how this is going to be judged. I spoke to one of Jeremy
:09:51. > :09:54.Corbyn's critics within the parliamentary party this morning and
:09:55. > :09:59.was surprised how upbeat he sounded. He said, I think we might put on a
:10:00. > :10:04.couple of hundred seats. This is a terrible time for the Tory
:10:05. > :10:08.leadership. I came off the phone and thought, this is about expectation
:10:09. > :10:14.management. This is the critics of Jeremy Corbyn saying that we should
:10:15. > :10:18.put on a few hundred seats. When they do not, they will see it as a
:10:19. > :10:23.disaster. The setting him up to fail. The Tories are expected to do
:10:24. > :10:28.quite well in these elections, even in Wales. We have had the budget,
:10:29. > :10:32.the Panama Papers, the steel crisis, the split over the referendum. It
:10:33. > :10:39.has got to take its toll on the Tories? It has in the opinion polls,
:10:40. > :10:43.which are Sean at the minimum of the Tory lead, narrowing, and in some
:10:44. > :10:48.cases Labour pulling ahead. I suspect some Tories would not mind
:10:49. > :10:53.doing badly in the local elections in England if it relieves the
:10:54. > :10:56.pressure on Jeremy Corbyn, who they want in place over the next four
:10:57. > :11:03.years and contesting the 2020 general election. Even if Labour do
:11:04. > :11:08.badly in Scotland, Jeremy Corbyn owes a debt to Sadiq Khan, because
:11:09. > :11:12.his likely but not certain victory in London, judging by the opinion
:11:13. > :11:17.polls, will attract more attention than elections everywhere, not
:11:18. > :11:24.before it deserves -- not because it deserves to, but because the media
:11:25. > :11:27.has a slight skew towards London. It is a slightly sexier office. It will
:11:28. > :11:32.drown out any underperformance that Labour have in the rest of the
:11:33. > :11:36.country. Is it too cynical to say that some Tories will not be too
:11:37. > :11:40.upset if they do not win London because Mr Corbyn will then be
:11:41. > :11:47.secure? I do not think that is cynical. That is absolutely the
:11:48. > :11:52.case. Janan is right. There will be lots of post-analysis about how the
:11:53. > :11:56.billionaire's son, Zac Goldsmith, lost the election. It is interesting
:11:57. > :11:59.that the people who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour
:12:00. > :12:04.Party, the window they are talking about is not after the local
:12:05. > :12:08.elections, but after the referendum at the end of June. We might be
:12:09. > :12:09.focused on the Conservatives by then. I think the troubles of the
:12:10. > :12:16.Tory party will take the focus then. So the referendum
:12:17. > :12:18.campaign has begun. The official campaign groups have
:12:19. > :12:20.been designated and the arguments The Prime Minister says we'll be
:12:21. > :12:25.stronger, safer, and better off in. And a vote to leave,
:12:26. > :12:27.says to Mr Cameron, But it won't have escaped your
:12:28. > :12:33.attention that the EU is also facing challenges,
:12:34. > :12:36.a migration crisis, economic So, if we do decide to remain,
:12:37. > :12:41.what are the risks ahead of us? For some, the consequences of this
:12:42. > :12:53.EU referendum are crystal clear. For the rest of us,
:12:54. > :12:56.it is difficult to see the future after June the 23rd,
:12:57. > :12:57.hard to predict. Of course, the politicians claim
:12:58. > :13:03.to know our fortunes. This cannot be described as anything
:13:04. > :13:05.other than risk, uncertainty, We have clearly elevated Brexit
:13:06. > :13:15.as one of the serious downside risks I firmly believe that leaving the EU
:13:16. > :13:21.would leave our country less secure. This lot, Vote Leave,
:13:22. > :13:24.call it Project Fear. They say the other side is trying
:13:25. > :13:27.to scare people into thinking that Instead they say that
:13:28. > :13:33.the uncertainty is staying in. What will the EU look like in five,
:13:34. > :13:39.ten, 15 years? For me, it would be an outdated
:13:40. > :13:42.bloc, something that was created in the last century,
:13:43. > :13:46.something that can neither control It has been foretold that migration
:13:47. > :13:53.will be one of the dominant David Cameron insists his negotiated
:13:54. > :14:00.emergency brake on migrants' in work benefits as well as changes to child
:14:01. > :14:03.benefits will discourage EU migration, but some experts say it
:14:04. > :14:09.will have little impact. Figures from the Migration
:14:10. > :14:12.Observatory this week suggest that continuing economic instability
:14:13. > :14:17.in the Eurozone is encouraging an increasing number of southern
:14:18. > :14:20.European migrants to head to the UK Looking forward, it is very
:14:21. > :14:24.difficult to know It is possible that if the gap
:14:25. > :14:29.in economic performance between the UK and other
:14:30. > :14:31.countries, for example, Italy, Portugal and Spain,
:14:32. > :14:35.remains significant, there could be quite a pull factor
:14:36. > :14:38.for some time. It is also possible if there is more
:14:39. > :14:40.economic convergence that we could see the numbers
:14:41. > :14:43.start to fall. Much has also been made this week
:14:44. > :14:47.about the risk to both the British and the global economy if Britain
:14:48. > :14:50.voted to leave the EU, In the single market we trade freely
:14:51. > :14:54.right across Europe and we have a say in making
:14:55. > :14:58.the rules across the Continent. If we leave, we give
:14:59. > :15:01.all of that up with no idea The real economic risks are for
:15:02. > :15:07.staying in the European Union. We might find ourselves on the hook
:15:08. > :15:12.for bailouts for countries that are having difficulty staying
:15:13. > :15:14.in the euro in the future. We might find that our rebate comes
:15:15. > :15:18.under assault in the future, we might find that the amount
:15:19. > :15:21.of money overall that we have to give the European Union
:15:22. > :15:26.goes up and up and up. A few weeks ago, the Governor
:15:27. > :15:29.of the Bank of England said that leaving the EU was the biggest
:15:30. > :15:31.domestic risk to Membership of the European Union
:15:32. > :15:36.brings risks as well, and the principal risk,
:15:37. > :15:38.risks I should say, because there are more than one,
:15:39. > :15:40.are associated with the unfinished On the issue of whether our laws
:15:41. > :15:53.are made in Westminster or Brussels, for those wanting to leave the EU,
:15:54. > :15:56.a vote to remain would mean handing Fewer and fewer things over
:15:57. > :15:59.which we have the authority Fewer and fewer of our decisions can
:16:00. > :16:03.be upheld in British courts And I also know that fewer and fewer
:16:04. > :16:13.decisions will be made on European Union level
:16:14. > :16:16.which will be in British interests. And yet one former minister told me
:16:17. > :16:19.that pooling some decision-making The truth is that if you enter
:16:20. > :16:26.into any international agreement, then you may agree that those
:16:27. > :16:28.decisions should be Our Nato membership involves exactly
:16:29. > :16:32.the same kind of arrangement. We allow Nato to take a decision
:16:33. > :16:34.for our collective strength. Both sides seemed to agree a vote
:16:35. > :16:49.to remain is not a vote Those who want to stay
:16:50. > :16:54.in are confident, at least publicly, that the renegotiation will change
:16:55. > :16:57.for the better our relationship Those who want out say that
:16:58. > :17:01.relationship will only get worse. Quite how persuasive
:17:02. > :17:02.those two visions are, I predict we will find out
:17:03. > :17:14.on June the 24th. Joining me now is Labour MP
:17:15. > :17:16.Tristram Hunt, he was a member of the Shadow Cabinet
:17:17. > :17:19.under Ed Miliband. He is now campaigning for Britain
:17:20. > :17:30.to remain in the EU. Do you accept, let's look at some of
:17:31. > :17:32.the risks that could be associated with remaining, start with
:17:33. > :17:36.immigration. Do you accept that as long as we remain in the EU we have
:17:37. > :17:42.no real control of the numbers coming to our country? The European
:17:43. > :17:46.Union is not perfect and it is quite right to have this debate about how
:17:47. > :17:52.we reform Europe in the future. When it comes to our borders, we check
:17:53. > :17:56.who comes in. There will remain passport controls but we have to
:17:57. > :18:00.make sure that we explain to people that if we left Europe but still
:18:01. > :18:05.wanted to trade with the single market, we would also have to have
:18:06. > :18:09.the free movement of people just as Norway and Switzerland does. But in
:18:10. > :18:12.the long run I think there is an interesting question about the
:18:13. > :18:17.degree of free movement of people across the European Union. My point
:18:18. > :18:20.is that Britain should be a part of that conversation. We should be
:18:21. > :18:25.involved in that reform and change and if we are not at the table than
:18:26. > :18:29.our voice won't be heard. The numbers would seem to be beyond our
:18:30. > :18:33.control because that's the price of membership. Over the past five years
:18:34. > :18:40.the number of EU nationals living in the UK has risen by 700,000, it is
:18:41. > :18:57.now 3.3 million, it has doubled in ten years. As long as we remain in
:18:58. > :19:01.the EU it is surely a risk that at least another 700,000 could come in
:19:02. > :19:04.the next five years, it could be even more. Or it could be markedly
:19:05. > :19:07.less. If we go back to a time when the British economy was worse in the
:19:08. > :19:10.1980s, we saw large numbers of people going abroad to work in the
:19:11. > :19:12.European Union. We are taking a snapshot at the moment and the point
:19:13. > :19:14.about pooling risk across the single market is that when your economy is
:19:15. > :19:17.in difficulty you can take opportunities in other parts of the
:19:18. > :19:22.country. In the UK we should be supporting reforms to make sure
:19:23. > :19:26.there are not benefit attractions to coming to the UK so I think the
:19:27. > :19:30.Prime Minister's point about having to pay in before you take out, the
:19:31. > :19:33.point about fairness is really important and I think people in
:19:34. > :19:38.Britain think that if people are coming here to work, to pay their
:19:39. > :19:43.taxes and contribute to society, that is fine. You say it's a
:19:44. > :19:48.snapshot but let's look at this chart. Over the last five years, as
:19:49. > :19:55.you can see from that, from about 2012, under five years in fact,
:19:56. > :20:02.these are the absolute number, immigration from the EU has risen
:20:03. > :20:07.dramatically. My point is it is not a snapshot, it is a clear trend. The
:20:08. > :20:15.part of immigration over which we have no control is rising the
:20:16. > :20:19.fastest, isn't that a risk? But we go back to 1975 so historically this
:20:20. > :20:24.is a snapshot, and overtime this well change. We cannot have a system
:20:25. > :20:29.whereby you turn up in the UK and claim benefits from day one. You
:20:30. > :20:35.have to have a contributory principle. Also, those parts of the
:20:36. > :20:39.country, Boston in Lincolnshire, parts that have experienced high
:20:40. > :20:44.levels of immigration and we should be open and honest about this that
:20:45. > :20:47.we have seen statistics show big changes and may have impacted
:20:48. > :20:51.communities in big ways sometimes, they need the extra resource for
:20:52. > :20:57.schools and hospitals that this brings in. The case I'm putting to
:20:58. > :21:01.you this morning is that that is not necessarily a snapshot or that it
:21:02. > :21:07.will necessarily change. Let's look at the risks we would face in the
:21:08. > :21:11.years to come. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, decided that last
:21:12. > :21:14.year over a million Syrian immigrants could go to Germany.
:21:15. > :21:22.Eventually they could come here if they wish. Why should we be at the
:21:23. > :21:26.risk of unilateral decisions taken by a foreign leader? Obviously there
:21:27. > :21:32.are issues about residency rights in Germany or Italy before anyone could
:21:33. > :21:35.come to the UK. We retain border controls. If they become German
:21:36. > :21:41.citizens they will be allowed to come here. This is a balance of
:21:42. > :21:47.risks, on June the 23rd of voters have to weigh up these may bes. What
:21:48. > :21:51.we have heard clearly from the governor of the Bank of England, the
:21:52. > :21:55.Chancellor of the Exchequer, the head of the IMF, that there will be
:21:56. > :22:00.a seismic economic shock to the British economy. I understand that
:22:01. > :22:05.and there has been plenty of coverage of the risks of coming out,
:22:06. > :22:09.but I'm looking at the risks of staying in. Let me give you another
:22:10. > :22:17.one, I've given you the Angela Merkel example. Albania, Turkey and
:22:18. > :22:22.others all want to join the EU. More people that could have a right to
:22:23. > :22:28.come and live and work in the UK. That is a risk. We are already
:22:29. > :22:31.seeing the risk of Brexit. The pound is falling in value, economic
:22:32. > :22:37.decisions are not being taken at the moment. I'm not arguing that there
:22:38. > :22:42.are risks to coming out, I perfectly understand that. I'm looking at the
:22:43. > :22:47.risks if we stay in. Address this issue that the risk is of another 87
:22:48. > :22:59.more people with the right to come to Britain. My point is the risks
:23:00. > :23:04.are happening now,... What is your answer to the 87 million? The
:23:05. > :23:07.extension of Europe has to be managed carefully. The broader
:23:08. > :23:09.conversation about the total free movement of people across the
:23:10. > :23:15.European Union is something that needs to be addressed but firstly we
:23:16. > :23:20.won't have any say over that if we have left the European Union.
:23:21. > :23:24.Secondly, those countries which trade with Europe like Norway and
:23:25. > :23:29.Switzerland also have to accept the free movement of people. There's no
:23:30. > :23:34.free ticket on this. What I want is a strong Great Britain at the
:23:35. > :23:38.negotiating table making the case for our borders and security. When
:23:39. > :23:42.it comes to the free movement of people you raised the issue of
:23:43. > :23:46.Syrian refugees and concerns about security in the aftermath of
:23:47. > :23:52.Brussels and Paris, being part of Europe and having security
:23:53. > :23:57.connections with Europe makes us stronger. There's talk of another
:23:58. > :24:01.Greek financial bailout, fears of an Italian banking crisis looming this
:24:02. > :24:04.summer. If the eurozone plunges into another recession, the numbers
:24:05. > :24:13.coming here could easily hit new record highs. We have also seen we
:24:14. > :24:18.are not part of the Europe... They will come here looking for jobs. We
:24:19. > :24:24.are not on the hook for the Greek bailout. We were with the last one.
:24:25. > :24:29.Not to the same degree as other European members. We negotiated a
:24:30. > :24:33.strong exemption from that. This is about Britain having a strong voice
:24:34. > :24:41.at the negotiating table and you are offering up your own Project Fear. I
:24:42. > :24:47.am taking a methodical look at the risks. The eurozone is stagnating at
:24:48. > :24:56.the moment, that's why Spaniards, Italian and Portuguese are pouring
:24:57. > :25:00.into this country in huge numbers. If the eurozone was to tilt into
:25:01. > :25:06.another recession, that risks a lot more. It is a risk, and the British
:25:07. > :25:10.answer to that should be to deepen the single market, to make it more
:25:11. > :25:21.effective, to have growth across Europe. You do, if you have a strong
:25:22. > :25:25.British voice arguing for growth across Europe. You're talking about
:25:26. > :25:31.these potential threats in the future, we have a threat now.
:25:32. > :25:35.Businesses in my constituency, Stoke-on-Trent, are not making
:25:36. > :25:41.investment decisions. Indecision, two years of negotiation if we
:25:42. > :25:47.leave. Hold on... Two years of indecision if we vote to leave. Why
:25:48. > :25:51.are they eyeing the British stock exchange if there is indecision?
:25:52. > :25:54.There will always be levels of flow and investment but what we are
:25:55. > :26:00.seeing is fear and concern about the future. I think of workers in
:26:01. > :26:05.Staffordshire who go to work at the Toyota plant in Derby, they have
:26:06. > :26:16.jobs because of being part of the single market. I'm talking about the
:26:17. > :26:20.risks if we remain. Do you deny that if we stay in we face further
:26:21. > :26:24.integration? We have had a clear commitment from the Prime Minister
:26:25. > :26:28.that we won't be involved in ever closer union and that is a big
:26:29. > :26:34.philosophical moment, that Britain has a distinct and different stance
:26:35. > :26:39.to the rest of the European Union. I think people will benefit from the
:26:40. > :26:44.best of both worlds. If that is the case, you will be familiar with D5
:26:45. > :26:49.president report, the official road map for greater integration into the
:26:50. > :26:56.European Union. It calls for financial, fiscal and political
:26:57. > :27:00.union by 2025. That could affect us. We have a clear commitment we will
:27:01. > :27:06.not be involved in ever closer union. Have you read this report?
:27:07. > :27:13.Not all of it. It is not a long report. It says much of what I have
:27:14. > :27:18.just named, not all, but much of that could be achieved already
:27:19. > :27:23.through a deepening of the single market, which is important for all
:27:24. > :27:29.28 EU members, so we would not necessarily be excluded. I am in
:27:30. > :27:36.favour of a deep into single market so that those 200,000 businesses in
:27:37. > :27:41.the UK, exporting to Europe, have greater growth and opportunities.
:27:42. > :27:46.People become richer. So there could be deeper integration. I would like
:27:47. > :27:50.to see the digital and service economy grated more, we want more
:27:51. > :27:57.jobs and growth across Europe that Britain will benefit from. Why would
:27:58. > :28:01.we, when we face a global fear about downturn, decide to cut ourselves
:28:02. > :28:09.off from the richest market in the world. You say it is the richest, it
:28:10. > :28:13.is also stagnating. Because we cannot do our own trade deals with
:28:14. > :28:18.the part of the world that is growing, our trade is therefore
:28:19. > :28:22.hindered. It has taken seven years to reach a deal with Canada, it is
:28:23. > :28:28.not complete, the free trade deal with Australia has been blocked by
:28:29. > :28:33.Italy. These are all growth markets, unlike Europe, and we are unable to
:28:34. > :28:39.do free trade deals with them. That is a risk. Do you honestly think
:28:40. > :28:45.that if we left Europe and there were negotiations with India about a
:28:46. > :28:50.free trade deal, the UK, 60 million people, would be ahead of the queue
:28:51. > :28:55.of the European Union... Nothing is happening with India for nine years.
:28:56. > :29:00.We had historic links with India. What about Australia and Canada? We
:29:01. > :29:05.are not owed a living in the world. We have to make our businesses grow
:29:06. > :29:10.on their own terms and you do that by being part of the European Union.
:29:11. > :29:15.You have a much greater weight around the world by being part of
:29:16. > :29:18.this. My point is that we have the best of both worlds. We have the
:29:19. > :29:25.historic connections with the Commonwealth, with America. But why
:29:26. > :29:29.does the American trade representative say to us you would
:29:30. > :29:35.be crazy to leave Europe. Why do our allies around the world say you
:29:36. > :29:40.should be part of Europe? You say we won't be part of any further
:29:41. > :29:44.political integration, you say we won't join the euro, we won't be
:29:45. > :29:48.part of Schengen, and yet it is clear Europe will become at least
:29:49. > :29:51.within the eurozone more and more integrated. We will have less
:29:52. > :29:58.influence on that, we will essentially become a semi detached
:29:59. > :30:03.country club. What is the point? The point is a growing market for
:30:04. > :30:06.British businesses of 500 million people, and yes, this is the point
:30:07. > :30:12.about the best of both worlds, we don't want ever closer political
:30:13. > :30:16.union. We want access to the single market. The best of both worlds,
:30:17. > :30:19.safer, stronger and better off in Europe.
:30:20. > :30:21.Now, this week President Obama will make his valedictory
:30:22. > :30:25.He'll even have lunch with the Queen to celebrate her ninetieth birthday,
:30:26. > :30:31.presumably after she's watched the Daily Politics.
:30:32. > :30:35.But it's another aspect of Mr Obama's visit
:30:36. > :30:39.While he's here, the leader of the free world is expected
:30:40. > :30:41.to endorse the idea of the UK remaining in the
:30:42. > :30:44.Those campaigning to leave the EU are,
:30:45. > :30:45.surprise, surprise, a
:30:46. > :30:47.Here's what Boris Johnson had to say yesterday.
:30:48. > :30:50.I just find it absolutely bizarre that we are being lectured
:30:51. > :30:52.by the Americans about giving up our sovereignty,
:30:53. > :30:58.The United States, for their own reasons, their own history,
:30:59. > :31:03.traditions, based on the ideas of no taxation without representation,
:31:04. > :31:06.a fervent belief in the inviolability of American democracy,
:31:07. > :31:07.they would not dream of sharing sovereignty.
:31:08. > :31:14.Is he in danger of making America look like a hypocrite?
:31:15. > :31:19.Not in danger of it, I am afraid there is an intrinsic hypocrisy.
:31:20. > :31:24.I do not know what he's going to say, but if that is
:31:25. > :31:31.the American argument, of course it is nakedly hypocritical.
:31:32. > :31:33.To discuss this I'm joined by James Rubin.
:31:34. > :31:39.He was a spokesman in the US State Department during Bill
:31:40. > :31:42.And Liam Fox, former Defence Secretary, and a leading
:31:43. > :31:44.light in the campaign to leave the EU.
:31:45. > :31:51.Why should the leader of her closest allies, with whom we have a special
:31:52. > :31:55.relationship, on your regard as crucial to this country, not say
:31:56. > :32:00.what he thinks is in our national interest? He is entitled to say what
:32:01. > :32:05.he thinks is an America's national interest, but whether it is in the
:32:06. > :32:08.interests of Britain is a different question. Of course the president is
:32:09. > :32:14.entitled to say what he thinks, but we have to add a couple of caveats.
:32:15. > :32:19.That is his view. There are other views in America, Senator Rubio for
:32:20. > :32:22.example expressing a different view, he has expressed what he thinks
:32:23. > :32:30.about the special relationship if Britain were to leave the European
:32:31. > :32:32.Union. Tell me one previous American administration, Democratic or
:32:33. > :32:38.Republican, that thought we should not be in the EU, or did not care if
:32:39. > :32:42.we left? It is not a question of what the express, it is that they
:32:43. > :32:47.should respect what Britain does. They all want us to stay? There were
:32:48. > :32:51.strong elements of the last Republican administration, strong
:32:52. > :32:55.Republican leaders at present, who do not think... I do not remember
:32:56. > :33:01.the second President Bush saying that Britain should leave the EU.
:33:02. > :33:06.The debate is now, about our future, our relationship with the rest of
:33:07. > :33:08.the world. It is fair to say, though I might not use the same
:33:09. > :33:12.terminology, it is unthinkable that I might not use the same
:33:13. > :33:14.the United States would allow a court to overrule the Supreme Court
:33:15. > :33:18.the United States would allow a or someone else to determine their
:33:19. > :33:22.external borders, in a way that the European Union does for the United
:33:23. > :33:28.Kingdom. Boris Johnson has made that point. President Obama, supporting
:33:29. > :33:31.things for Britain, things that no European -- that no American
:33:32. > :33:37.president would contemplate. Maybe we would be more inclined to listen
:33:38. > :33:40.to the president if he favoured an open border with Mexico, and if
:33:41. > :33:46.Congress was no longer the ultimate decider of federal law? Let me see a
:33:47. > :33:49.couple of things. I am glad that my colleague agrees that the president
:33:50. > :33:53.is attacked -- entitled to express his view of what is in the
:33:54. > :34:01.President's interest. -- America's interest. America and the EU
:34:02. > :34:05.together, they are the most powerful force for free markets and democracy
:34:06. > :34:10.around the world. If Britain leads the European Union, we will be
:34:11. > :34:12.weaker. We will might be able to pursue the great values that our
:34:13. > :34:17.countries have pushed around the world. Written working with the
:34:18. > :34:23.United States and the EU is able to do that. We have a joke in America,
:34:24. > :34:26.but it is a serious matter. Friends do not let friends drive drunk. This
:34:27. > :34:31.is not in our interest, or the interests of the world. What about
:34:32. > :34:35.our interest? You will make that judgment. Is the president simply
:34:36. > :34:41.going to say it is in the interests of America? I think he will avoid
:34:42. > :34:46.telling Britain what is in Britain's interest. About the point on
:34:47. > :34:50.hypocrisy, I know Boris Johnson likes to read biographies of the
:34:51. > :34:56.past. Maybe he is living in the past when he thinks that America is a
:34:57. > :35:01.very large country, a superpower, it has the world's largest military. It
:35:02. > :35:07.does not have to do only what you choose is compared to the British.
:35:08. > :35:09.Britain is a different country, not the superpower any more. Just
:35:10. > :35:14.because we will not do something does not mean that the British
:35:15. > :35:17.ignored. If the US president was coming here to support Leave, you
:35:18. > :35:22.would be shouting it from the rooftops? I do not think we will
:35:23. > :35:27.find out if that is true or not. There is an element of hypocrisy. We
:35:28. > :35:32.need to get the balance. We need to stick to the issues. We recognise
:35:33. > :35:37.the president is alleged to have his view, but it is not the only
:35:38. > :35:41.American view of what is in America's interests. We have to
:35:42. > :35:45.recognise it is a British debate ultimately. We will make our
:35:46. > :35:48.decision. As to this point about pushing our values, Britain had the
:35:49. > :35:54.same values before we joined the European Union in 1973. The fact we
:35:55. > :35:59.will be changing our philosophical approach because we are part of the
:36:00. > :36:03.group in union is not true. I mean that the EU is a very powerful
:36:04. > :36:07.instrument in our world. The United States has great military power, but
:36:08. > :36:12.there are other powers we need to achieve order and stability, and
:36:13. > :36:17.promote free markets. We need the ability to promote sanctions and
:36:18. > :36:22.provide aid. We need the ability to promote democracy. The EU is good at
:36:23. > :36:26.that working with the United States. We are better able to do that when
:36:27. > :36:30.our closest ally is within the EU. Let him come back on that. We think
:36:31. > :36:33.our closest ally is within the EU. that the European Union is failing
:36:34. > :36:39.and that the structural failures of the European Union are not good for
:36:40. > :36:42.the West. We are seeing the re-emergence of nationalist tensions
:36:43. > :36:44.across Europe. We are seeing fence building. That is not the fault of
:36:45. > :36:50.the EU. It is a failure of the EU. building. That is not the fault of
:36:51. > :36:53.We are seeing a whole generation of young Europeans unemployed as a
:36:54. > :36:58.result of the single currency. It is creating tensions. You did not have
:36:59. > :37:03.a problem with foreigners weighing in during the Scottish referendum.
:37:04. > :37:09.You told the Scandinavian countries, if your analysis is that Scottish
:37:10. > :37:12.independence is a threat to your security, why are you not standing
:37:13. > :37:16.up and saying it? President Obama probably thinks it is a threat to
:37:17. > :37:22.allow security, so why should they not see that? I thought it was a
:37:23. > :37:27.risk to the security of Britain in the Scottish referendum if we left
:37:28. > :37:31.Natal. If Britain pulls out of the EU, the Scottish will pull out of
:37:32. > :37:35.Britain and there will be a hold-mac in Natal. I do not believe that to
:37:36. > :37:41.be true. When were you last in Scotland? I was recently there and I
:37:42. > :37:47.sat with the Scottish party leader. They have been clear that if the EU
:37:48. > :37:51.does not include Britain, the Scottish want to lead. Interest is
:37:52. > :37:56.one thing, having an opinion about what the SNP will do is different.
:37:57. > :38:00.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE What about Senator Cruise, he is
:38:01. > :38:03.fighting for the Republican nomination with Donald Trump. He
:38:04. > :38:09.said that Mr Obama's comments will make it more likely that England, he
:38:10. > :38:13.means Britain, that England will pull out of the EU? I do not think
:38:14. > :38:18.it will have a massive impact either way in terms of the British result.
:38:19. > :38:22.I think it is important for us to recognise that this is a decision
:38:23. > :38:26.for the United Kingdom. I do not agree with this assessment that the
:38:27. > :38:30.European Union in its current model is good for the United States. It is
:38:31. > :38:37.unstable. Now you're giving an opinion for us. You just asked me
:38:38. > :38:41.not to do that. The United States and Britain working together have
:38:42. > :38:45.made the world a better place for democracy, for a free market. We are
:38:46. > :38:51.only able to do that successfully when our closest ally is part of the
:38:52. > :38:54.EU. American foreign policy will be weaker, Western foreign policy will
:38:55. > :38:59.be weaker if the British leave the EU. We look forward to the
:39:00. > :39:01.President's visit, whatever he has to say. Thank you.
:39:02. > :39:03.It's just gone 11:35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:04. > :39:10.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:11. > :39:12.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:39:13. > :39:18.Willie Rennie's been hard at work on the campaign trail and says
:39:19. > :39:22.the Lib Dems are back to their best - but will voters agree?
:39:23. > :39:24.And Ruth Davidson says she's going into this election battle
:39:25. > :39:26.with a second-place finish for the Scottish Conservatives
:39:27. > :39:35.The Liberal Democrats have been out of Government
:39:36. > :39:39.A year in which the party's been trying to reassert
:39:40. > :39:41.its individual identity - and gain back some
:39:42. > :39:45.As May 5th approaches, the Scottish party leader
:39:46. > :39:48.Willie Rennie says the Lib Dems' optimistic, uplifting approach
:39:49. > :39:51.will help the party grow again at this election.
:39:52. > :39:58.Huw Williams has been considering their chances.
:39:59. > :40:04.The Scottish Liberal Democrats say this is the election at which they
:40:05. > :40:10.get back to winning ways. The last five years has seen the parties
:40:11. > :40:14.electrophoretic to in on the slide. Down to five members-macro at
:40:15. > :40:21.Holyrood and one mile per hour Westminster. The leader was born in
:40:22. > :40:27.Fife and is a keen runner. In past years worked for party headquarters
:40:28. > :40:31.and as a PR assistant. Key campaign themes will include an emphasis on
:40:32. > :40:35.civil Liberties, mental health and social care, and drug policy. But
:40:36. > :40:45.still the dens are highlighting their plans to put the Scottish rate
:40:46. > :40:49.of income tax up by 1p. The Liberal Democrats have gone back to the idea
:40:50. > :40:54.of putting a penny on income tax to spend more on schools and colleges
:40:55. > :40:59.of including children from less well-off backgrounds. That seems
:41:00. > :41:04.like a popular idea. You might think that having been in
:41:05. > :41:08.college and UK Government would be good for the Liberal Democrat's
:41:09. > :41:14.credibility. But then again maybe not. The difficulty the Liberal
:41:15. > :41:21.Democrats have is that the millstone of the coalition with the
:41:22. > :41:25.Conservatives and above all the U-turn on student tuition fees is
:41:26. > :41:29.something they have still not persuaded people to forgive them
:41:30. > :41:32.for. The truth is until people are willing to forget that it is
:41:33. > :41:38.difficult for the Liberal Democrats to get much of a hearing.
:41:39. > :41:43.Willie Rennie said if the party tax rise plans, if nobody supported that
:41:44. > :41:46.I would still advocate it. Opponents except that is believed that as the
:41:47. > :41:49.idea of an election that you try to win?
:41:50. > :42:00.In your manifesto you said the Liberal Democrats are looking for
:42:01. > :42:04.the opportunity to ask people to pay a little more so that we are outward
:42:05. > :42:08.looking and ambitious for the country. That has been missing in
:42:09. > :42:14.recent years and we're back to its now. What been missing? That
:42:15. > :42:20.ambitious agenda for the country. That looking out to grow. Do you
:42:21. > :42:24.think the Liberal Democrats did not have that whenever in the coalition?
:42:25. > :42:29.We were tarnished during the coalition years. There is no doubt
:42:30. > :42:32.about that. Now we can be more positive and uplifting and people
:42:33. > :42:37.are coming back to us as a result. Are you saying they were not
:42:38. > :42:40.ambitious during the coalition? They were ambitious but what we were
:42:41. > :42:44.tarnished by was that coalition needed. As a result the results in
:42:45. > :42:50.subsequent years were more challenging. But now what we have
:42:51. > :42:53.with this progressive agenda on tax, guaranteed Civil Liberties,
:42:54. > :42:55.protecting the environment, meeting should be boost mental health
:42:56. > :43:02.services... The problem you have got should be boost mental health
:43:03. > :43:05.is this millstone around your neck. People will say, we do not like the
:43:06. > :43:09.Liberal Democrats, they were in coalition with the Tories, and
:43:10. > :43:13.particularly people say you cannot trust what people say. They lied
:43:14. > :43:16.electrician fees. They give personal guarantees as candidates that they
:43:17. > :43:21.would not put up tuition fees and then they did. That is what you need
:43:22. > :43:27.to get over. Does not see much saying that you are getting it. What
:43:28. > :43:31.you will say is that Liberal Democrats are not going to make that
:43:32. > :43:36.mistake again. There is no doubt we heard the message loud and clear.
:43:37. > :43:39.What people thought about the coalition, what people thought about
:43:40. > :43:43.the tuition fees mistake, we understood what people were saying.
:43:44. > :43:47.There is no doubt, we are never put to make that mistake again. We are
:43:48. > :43:52.getting that across in this election. We have got an agenda now
:43:53. > :43:55.that is positive and uplifting. When I was an hour yesterday, not
:43:56. > :43:59.particularly a Liberal Democrat heartland, people were stopping me
:44:00. > :44:02.in the street telling me that because of that positive uplifting
:44:03. > :44:12.agenda they are going to vote for us for the first time. People still do
:44:13. > :44:16.not trust you. People are coming to us because of that agenda. Would you
:44:17. > :44:20.feel more or less comparable fighting the Scottish election
:44:21. > :44:25.campaign if the Liberal Democrats were still in coalition with the
:44:26. > :44:29.Conservatives at Westminster? You see for yourself the consequences of
:44:30. > :44:35.the Conservatives running the Government by themselves. Everybody
:44:36. > :44:43.sees the big cats. Are you more or less comfortable rest I am positive
:44:44. > :44:46.with an uplifting campaign. I am a Liberal Democrat. I would rather the
:44:47. > :44:48.Liberal Democrats were in charge by ourselves because we have seen what
:44:49. > :44:53.this out when the Tories overcharged by themselves. You say you want to
:44:54. > :45:02.use the new powers for gender equality in Scottish elections. In a
:45:03. > :45:04.PR system, it is not just about candidates, it is about the chances
:45:05. > :45:08.of getting elected. Many candidates, it is about the chances
:45:09. > :45:14.would say that apart from a handful of constituencies that is the best
:45:15. > :45:19.chance, in the regional list. But in the regional list you need
:45:20. > :45:29.candidates in sex or even seven of the each regions are all men. Are
:45:30. > :45:37.you comfortable with that. -- and six or seven of each region. The
:45:38. > :45:40.plan is to have balance across parliamentary representation. It is
:45:41. > :45:46.a weakness there. That is why I took firm action to come up with plans.
:45:47. > :45:52.Seven out of eight lead candidates are men. I recognise what you are
:45:53. > :45:58.saying that is why I took firm action. I know you recognise what I
:45:59. > :46:05.am saying. You do not want this to happen again? I have done something
:46:06. > :46:11.about it. What I want to have as equal representation in the
:46:12. > :46:13.Parliament and to make sure that we are progressive and represent the
:46:14. > :46:17.people we seek to represent. This will be the last time that seven out
:46:18. > :46:26.of eight are men? You have seen the plans. 2019, 2020, we will have
:46:27. > :46:31.gender balance. You say you are not interested in going into coalition
:46:32. > :46:37.after the selection should the SNP failed to win an outright majority.
:46:38. > :46:42.Unless that is one of your goals what is the point in voting Liberal
:46:43. > :46:47.Democrat, even if you are Liberal Democrat? The real value is, what
:46:48. > :46:50.you have seen in the last five years in Holyrood when we have punched
:46:51. > :46:56.above our weight. That was not for us who would have the SNP? Why do
:46:57. > :47:03.not want to go into coalition. You could have a big impact without
:47:04. > :47:06.forming a coalition. You have just finished telling me how valuable it
:47:07. > :47:10.was to have the Liberal Democrats in coalition with the Conservatives.
:47:11. > :47:15.For the speedy is what I want to do is accept the maximum pressure on
:47:16. > :47:20.the next Parliament to make sure that liberal values at the heart of
:47:21. > :47:24.Parliament. In the last five years a big challenge on the police,
:47:25. > :47:35.guaranteeing civil liberties, the super ID database, guaranteed
:47:36. > :47:42.expansion of nursery education. I am not interested in coalitions. Your
:47:43. > :47:55.penny on tax to spend on education will raise about ?500 million per
:47:56. > :48:00.year. ?170 million goes to the people premium. That goes direct to
:48:01. > :48:04.schools. It does not go through local authorities. This goes direct
:48:05. > :48:06.to schools. The mechanism makes sure that people from disadvantaged
:48:07. > :48:11.backgrounds get extra support that people from disadvantaged
:48:12. > :48:14.tuition, homework support. That is given to headteachers. Yes. What
:48:15. > :48:21.about the rest of the money? Does that go through local authorities?
:48:22. > :48:25.70 or ?80 million will go through local authorities. College funding
:48:26. > :48:30.is ?108 million. Nursery education is 100 million. How much it goes
:48:31. > :48:35.through local authorities in total? The exact mechanism will be partly
:48:36. > :48:39.tied in entitlement to nursery education people premium. You will
:48:40. > :48:43.ring fence that money. You're not education people premium. You will
:48:44. > :48:47.just give it to local authorities. It is an entitlement. The money will
:48:48. > :48:51.be guaranteed to go into that area. Every penny you get a local
:48:52. > :48:55.authorities to spend on education there will be a legal requirement to
:48:56. > :49:00.spend it on education. There is a pot of about 70 million or ?80
:49:01. > :49:06.million which will go to local authorities to reverse the education
:49:07. > :49:15.cuts. Half of what local authorities do is education. I know what you are
:49:16. > :49:19.driving at. The vast bulk... What I am driving at this why should people
:49:20. > :49:27.want to have their taxes go up for money that may or may not be spent
:49:28. > :49:33.on education? ?190 million per year for a pupil premium, the Scottish
:49:34. > :49:38.Ajit is ?30 billion. Are you saying you cannot find money for that
:49:39. > :49:43.without putting up tax? ?500 million will go directly into education
:49:44. > :49:45.funding in Scotland. That is a big investment. People will know what
:49:46. > :49:54.they are getting for that investment. We have got an urgent
:49:55. > :49:58.situation. New Government in the UK implemented the pupil premium. We
:49:59. > :50:02.did not pay taxes up. You have asked me this question before. The
:50:03. > :50:07.situation in Scotland is so urgent. Used up one of the best education
:50:08. > :50:10.systems in the world. We spend more money on education per capita than a
:50:11. > :50:16.month does. We used to have the best education system in the world. We
:50:17. > :50:20.cannot wait on the SNP anymore. They have been sitting to mentally for
:50:21. > :50:32.nine years in Government whilst the education system has slipped down to
:50:33. > :50:36.average. I want... Children cannot wait for the SNP anymore. If we
:50:37. > :50:45.carry on the path that the SNP are pursuing they will be waiting. The
:50:46. > :50:49.SNP are reducing national testing which will be one way that we could
:50:50. > :50:54.no it is spending this money could have any effect. You are a case
:50:55. > :51:02.that? Of course, because it disrupts the relationship between the pupil
:51:03. > :51:08.and teacher. Prior to the question? Wait back a phrase you use,
:51:09. > :51:14.according to you, with the peg, do not fatten the pack. What this
:51:15. > :51:19.disrupted the relationship between pupil teacher and that is critically
:51:20. > :51:22.important. The second thing it does is it undermines the curriculum for
:51:23. > :51:23.important. The second thing it does excellence, which is supposed to be
:51:24. > :51:27.important. The second thing it does put power back into the hands of
:51:28. > :51:31.teachers. What testing does is strives teaching to the test, it
:51:32. > :51:35.also makes sure that resources go into areas that are being tested,
:51:36. > :51:42.rather than the areas that improve all-round education. What I am
:51:43. > :51:45.getting at is how under your prog -- how do your policies would we know
:51:46. > :51:52.if you extra spending has had any effect? You have the inspection
:51:53. > :51:53.regime that is there, that tests how schools are performing. They go in
:51:54. > :51:59.and investigate schools to see the schools are performing. They go in
:52:00. > :52:00.property of investigation. We would have fewer failing schools, is
:52:01. > :52:07.property of investigation. We would what you're saying? Make sure the
:52:08. > :52:09.fundamentals of education are right by having proper investigations and
:52:10. > :52:12.put power back in the hands of teachers. If you can do that and
:52:13. > :52:17.allow them to teach pupils in the way they were trained to then I
:52:18. > :52:19.think we will get an improvement in our education system. You can
:52:20. > :52:22.think we will get an improvement in understand how some people watching
:52:23. > :52:26.this thing hang on, we're being asked for our taxes to go for money
:52:27. > :52:30.that may or may not be spent on education and they are against the
:52:31. > :52:33.measure is the SNP are proposing, which would enable us to tell
:52:34. > :52:38.whether the spending is having any effect not. I disagree with that
:52:39. > :52:42.completely, what we are seeing here is the SNP ripping right into the
:52:43. > :52:46.heart of the week education works in Scotland, we need to trust the
:52:47. > :52:51.teacher to do their job. We need to make sure they have the B sources to
:52:52. > :52:55.do their job. That way we can have an improvement in our education
:52:56. > :53:00.system. Of course you can review how education is performing, we have the
:53:01. > :53:03.OECD conduct their own studies as that is showing that education in
:53:04. > :53:09.Scotland has gone from one of the best to just average. That is not
:53:10. > :53:13.good enough. Policing is one of your biggest issues, why are you not
:53:14. > :53:16.proposing to break up the national police force and put it under the
:53:17. > :53:22.control of local authorities? I do not think it would be a good idea to
:53:23. > :53:27.impose another top-down... But you have been one of the biggest critics
:53:28. > :53:31.of this. And we were right. Look at what has happened. Industrial skill
:53:32. > :53:35.of this. And we were right. Look at stop at steps, there have been some
:53:36. > :53:40.terrible things happening to the police. -- industrial scale stop and
:53:41. > :53:46.search. In other mass of your organisation would be the wrong
:53:47. > :53:49.thing to do. If they had listened to us in the first place he would not
:53:50. > :53:54.have gone through this pain and agony. We are going to allow them to
:53:55. > :53:59.do their job. Apart from seeing local policing plans should be
:54:00. > :54:04.agreed by local people, none of your proposals in policing seem to do
:54:05. > :54:08.very much to restore... That is nonsense. What we want to do is spit
:54:09. > :54:11.out the target culture in the police, if you speak to the Police
:54:12. > :54:15.Federation they would agree wholeheartedly with what I'm saying.
:54:16. > :54:18.The second thing we would do is make sure -- we would allow local
:54:19. > :54:23.authorities to agree policing plans to inject democracy back in.
:54:24. > :54:28.Effectively local authorities would have a veto in policing policy and
:54:29. > :54:32.local authority areas. That would inject democracy back in and return
:54:33. > :54:36.Scottish policing to where it was before the SNP started meddling with
:54:37. > :54:44.that. Why argue reluctant to impose the named person legislation? We
:54:45. > :54:49.gave cautious support initially. A lot of people are opposed. Let me
:54:50. > :54:52.answer the question, you are very good at the drop in, let me answer
:54:53. > :54:59.the question. We need to make sure it is reviewed properly. Primarily
:55:00. > :55:03.because it came from a bottom-up exercise and a pilot conducted in
:55:04. > :55:06.Highland in Edinburgh, that made sure that there was nobody going to
:55:07. > :55:11.slip through the net. I recognise that there are considerable concerns
:55:12. > :55:16.from parents and others, that is why I want to review it, to make sure
:55:17. > :55:19.that local authorities do not overreach, they do not do more than
:55:20. > :55:24.they are entitled to do and if they do then we will recommend pulling
:55:25. > :55:28.back but I think it is right to make sure that we try and progress this
:55:29. > :55:31.and review it. But you are not against it in principle, a lot of
:55:32. > :55:36.the opponents of this and say the are engaged in principle, the idea
:55:37. > :55:39.of having a named person. I am not against it in principle, I want to
:55:40. > :55:47.review it carefully to insure it discipline to properly. Drugs, you
:55:48. > :55:53.see a new manifesto that the Liberal Democrats in favour of legalising
:55:54. > :55:59.cannabis, why not do it here? We propose a sense that I was a system
:56:00. > :56:04.like Portugal that has decriminalisation and ensure that
:56:05. > :56:07.rehabilitation is essential part. This will push the powers that the
:56:08. > :56:10.Scottish probe that has rights to the edge but we believe this is the
:56:11. > :56:15.enlightened way to do it to tackle the real problem we have in Scotland
:56:16. > :56:19.of drugs. We must finish there. Your plans and resolution for the
:56:20. > :56:23.campaign, puppies, but it -- bunny rabbits, pigs are out, right? Maybe!
:56:24. > :56:25.A14 thank you very much. The Scottish Conservatives have big
:56:26. > :56:28.ambitions for this election. They want to overtake Labour and
:56:29. > :56:31.become the biggest opposition party. There's been some sneering
:56:32. > :56:33.that the Tory leader Ruth Davidson is not even claiming she's
:56:34. > :56:35.going to win. But there's no doubt coming
:56:36. > :56:37.second would be a huge But have they really any
:56:38. > :56:48.chance of doing that? The Scottish Conservatives under
:56:49. > :56:53.Ruth Davidson's leadership claim that in this election they really
:56:54. > :56:59.are snapping at Labour's heels to take second place behind the SNP.
:57:00. > :57:03.She was born in Edinburgh, worked as a newspaper reporter then at BBC
:57:04. > :57:07.Scotland, she left the BBC to study at Glasgow University and joined the
:57:08. > :57:11.Conservative Party. She is a member of the Church of Scotland, a kick
:57:12. > :57:14.boxer, a Dunfermline athletic supporter and has been promised a
:57:15. > :57:20.new puppy by her partner once the campaign is over. The parties try to
:57:21. > :57:23.position itself as the go to option for no voters after the dependence
:57:24. > :57:30.referendum and tested against the idea of tax rises as Holyrood has
:57:31. > :57:36.power over rates. The Conservatives seem to be playing a popular tune on
:57:37. > :57:39.key issues north of the border, one undoubtedly is tied to keep taxation
:57:40. > :57:43.the same as England, half of Scots like that idea and have strong
:57:44. > :57:46.commitment to increasing spending on the health service. That is
:57:47. > :57:51.something that most Scots would like to see happen.
:57:52. > :57:53.But the Conservatives face a long-standing difficulty if they
:57:54. > :57:58.want to generate mass support in Scotland again. The problem the
:57:59. > :58:01.Conservatives face is the one they have faced ever since the late 90s
:58:02. > :58:05.and that is that people are still not convinced that this is a party
:58:06. > :58:09.that puts Scotland first as opposed to Britain as a whole. Despite the
:58:10. > :58:13.fact that the new devolution settlement that Scotland will enjoy
:58:14. > :58:17.was written by a Conservative UK Government, it is still plagued by
:58:18. > :58:21.the perception that it is an English party that originally wanted to deny
:58:22. > :58:28.Scotland's devolution. Despite talk of a party on the up the reality
:58:29. > :58:30.remains that in last year's Westminster general election
:58:31. > :58:31.Scottish Conservatives took the lowest share of the vote for a
:58:32. > :58:48.century and a half. Your big pictures -- your big
:58:49. > :58:52.picture for you is to stop independence? I would love to be
:58:53. > :58:54.First Minister tomorrow but what we need here is a strong opposition to
:58:55. > :58:59.the Scottish Government because we have not had won the last nine
:59:00. > :59:06.years. I was going to ask you, have you written of people who voted yes?
:59:07. > :59:10.Now, but we must start, the SNP want to start a campaign to reopen this
:59:11. > :59:14.in the summer but we must plan for the long-term. What would you say to
:59:15. > :59:17.someone who voted yes? I to listen to them and reassure them that the
:59:18. > :59:22.someone who voted yes? I to listen ambitions we have for our country
:59:23. > :59:23.can exist within the newly re-empower Scottish parliament and
:59:24. > :59:26.can exist within the newly in order for our country to come
:59:27. > :59:32.back together we need to do less shouting and more listening. Problem
:59:33. > :59:35.you have as you know is that many people say that Ruth Davidson is
:59:36. > :59:40.really nice but many people like Annabell Goldie as well. There is
:59:41. > :59:43.this resistance in Scotland, isn't there, people think I can actually
:59:44. > :59:50.say that I cannot bring myself to vote Conservative. You still have
:59:51. > :59:53.the image of the nasty party. What we are seeing is there is a really
:59:54. > :59:58.specific job I will do for you if you vote for us. This does not make
:59:59. > :00:02.you a trolley or died in the wool trueblue but what people see as we
:00:03. > :00:05.can do you a job because this country needs a strong opposition.
:00:06. > :00:10.We have passed some bad laws in the last nine years, we have nine years,
:00:11. > :00:14.six leaders had no success for a Labour Party in opposition. That
:00:15. > :00:20.Scottish sense of fair play kicks in, give someone else a try. I will
:00:21. > :00:28.hold the SNP to account and say no to a second referendum. U just ask a
:00:29. > :00:32.few questions. To test this image problem the Conservatives have had.
:00:33. > :00:35.Nicola Sturgeon has proposed a register of controlling interests
:00:36. > :00:40.which in the wake of the Panama papers affair would allow us to know
:00:41. > :00:44.who owns land in Scotland. Would the Conservative support that? We always
:00:45. > :00:47.said by the land reform was coming through that we want a register of
:00:48. > :00:51.who owns the land in Scotland. What we did not support was absolute
:00:52. > :00:55.right to buy which stops the entrants coming in. Do you think we
:00:56. > :00:59.should know who the beneficial owners are of all land in Scotland?
:01:00. > :01:05.That is why we supported the land Registry just a few weeks ago. What
:01:06. > :01:11.a new manifesto would cut the number of people relying on food banks?
:01:12. > :01:13.Getting more people into jobs. That is a bit like the old Monty Python
:01:14. > :01:19.Getting more people into jobs. That joke about blue Peter, isn't it? Did
:01:20. > :01:25.lots of trenches and film absorb water. Of course growing the economy
:01:26. > :01:27.would help people not going to fit bikes but there is nothing
:01:28. > :01:31.mentioning new manifesto and that is bikes but there is nothing
:01:32. > :01:36.not a specific proposal. If you look at the SNP government's own, every
:01:37. > :01:40.year they must publish a big paper on poverty in this country that
:01:41. > :01:43.shows that poverty levels are down, income is up, there are fewer people
:01:44. > :01:48.in poverty in Scotland that there has been, few people in child
:01:49. > :01:50.poverty and that this is specifically because even the
:01:51. > :01:53.Scottish Government acknowledges this, more people in Scotland are in
:01:54. > :01:58.employment and more people have more hours of deployment than previously.
:01:59. > :02:01.Many people will say what world is she living in when we have had a
:02:02. > :02:05.report from the Castle trust seeing the number of people visiting fit
:02:06. > :02:09.bikes in Scotland is up by 30% at the rate of increase in Scotland is
:02:10. > :02:14.higher than the rate of increase in the rest of the UK. You have not
:02:15. > :02:21.told me anything specifically about food banks. F I was quoting my own
:02:22. > :02:25.figures they would be right to say that, but I am quoting the figures
:02:26. > :02:29.from the Scottish Government. Your specific proposals were not to
:02:30. > :02:32.anything about food banks apart from creating jobs. We want to cut the
:02:33. > :02:37.appointed by for disabled people, we want to use our powers to insure we
:02:38. > :02:40.have a dedicated appointed agency, we want to grow the Scottish
:02:41. > :02:45.economy, freeze business rates to allow people to hire more people and
:02:46. > :02:49.create more skills for people leaving education that do not find a
:02:50. > :02:52.place in college. We want to increase the number of
:02:53. > :02:58.apprenticeships. If I were a young man or woman... This is more people,
:02:59. > :03:02.very specific policies. If I were a young man or woman who has perhaps
:03:03. > :03:05.had relationship problems and mental health problems, lost her job, I
:03:06. > :03:10.have been sanctioned for some reason or other by the DWP, been refused an
:03:11. > :03:14.emergency loan and I were watching this before visiting the feedback I
:03:15. > :03:18.would think, well that is just waffle. There's nothing there that
:03:19. > :03:23.specifically addresses by problem. If you want specific segment that
:03:24. > :03:25.worked choice, and it which exists to help people who have either
:03:26. > :03:30.mental or physical disabilities get into the workplace. It is
:03:31. > :03:34.voluntarily, it is for people who want to have obscurely, extra
:03:35. > :03:38.skills, he was confidence and help in terms of application. 5000
:03:39. > :03:42.people, the furthest from the jobs market, have gone into that. Down
:03:43. > :03:45.south there is a movement to combine up with other employment agencies,
:03:46. > :03:48.we say that under the new powers in up with other employment agencies,
:03:49. > :03:53.Scotland will have that is something we will keep going. We will have a
:03:54. > :03:56.specific pledge in our manifesto to have an increased by ?300 million
:03:57. > :04:00.over the course of Parliament to help fund it. You said specifically
:04:01. > :04:05.for people of mental health issues and that is one that will help
:04:06. > :04:08.address that. David Cameron's Panama papers adventures, that presumably
:04:09. > :04:12.has not been very helpful to you try to run a campaign to convince people
:04:13. > :04:16.that the Conservatives have a different image. The people of
:04:17. > :04:20.Scotland aren't daft, they know what this election is about, it will be
:04:21. > :04:24.your First Minister that he will be the Leader of the Opposition. I can
:04:25. > :04:31.do a good job for people as the Leader of the Opposition. I have put
:04:32. > :04:34.my own tax affairs out there. There's nothing to hide there. It
:04:35. > :04:40.was on the Internet for all to see. Are you saying I am not like David
:04:41. > :04:44.Cameron at all? And seeing how the press the ballot paper, I'm the
:04:45. > :04:49.person voting for. Do you think he did make a mistake in not being more
:04:50. > :04:51.open about what he... He has put more information in the public realm
:04:52. > :04:55.in any previous Prime Minister. Do more information in the public realm
:04:56. > :05:00.think it would have been better if he did it all at the beginning
:05:01. > :05:05.rather than over a couple days? In retrospect, yes. Your tax commission
:05:06. > :05:10.recommended a 30p rate of tax. What happened to that? We looked at it
:05:11. > :05:13.and how much it would cost of the also looked at ways in which we can
:05:14. > :05:16.call the Scottish economy and we have a real philosophical belief and
:05:17. > :05:20.it is backed up by today's polling that 60% of people across goal and
:05:21. > :05:23.believe us, that we should not have tax rates higher in Scotland than
:05:24. > :05:27.the rest of the UK, so we're seeing things like the vessel to change for
:05:28. > :05:31.the additional rate of tax, the threshold change for the operator
:05:32. > :05:37.tax, and that moves that up to about ?45,000 and beyond. We cannot a way
:05:38. > :05:38.with in their constrain spending to make sure that we were able to do
:05:39. > :05:51.that at this time. It was one that we thought that we
:05:52. > :05:58.as a country could not afford right now if we wanted to have the same
:05:59. > :06:05.level of services. I am fairly sure that Ukip will not
:06:06. > :06:11.be travelling the scorers at this election. You say in your manifesto
:06:12. > :06:17.you would allow councils to put in place a moratorium on wind farms. So
:06:18. > :06:25.if local people lobby fodder and councils bought Phillip there will
:06:26. > :06:28.be no wind farms? We would be the most densely properly to the country
:06:29. > :06:33.and the entire world with wind turbines. We think that local people
:06:34. > :06:37.should have a level and degree of control over what happens in the
:06:38. > :06:42.area. That is why you have local Government. Local Government should
:06:43. > :06:47.be empowered to make some decisions. You sit there is a precedent for
:06:48. > :06:52.this in your manifesto because of that moratorium on fracking. But you
:06:53. > :06:56.are in favour of fracking. Again with local authorities giving it the
:06:57. > :07:04.Green light. They are happy with it is up to them. Local authorities
:07:05. > :07:06.will be able to have moratoriums on fracking. Absolutely but we do not
:07:07. > :07:11.think there should be a blanket ban fracking. Absolutely but we do not
:07:12. > :07:11.on gas extraction. We also see fractured extraction happening
:07:12. > :07:20.on gas extraction. We also see offshore in Scotland right now. You
:07:21. > :07:24.see that schools should be allowed to operate outside local authority
:07:25. > :07:28.control. How is that going to work? The policy of the Conservatives in
:07:29. > :07:33.Westminster is to take all schools in England out of local authority
:07:34. > :07:38.control? We have had a different education system here since the dawn
:07:39. > :07:42.of time. We want more schools and more school leaders, headteachers
:07:43. > :07:46.and others in the school board, to have control over hiring and firing.
:07:47. > :07:52.How do you get it? If you are a parent watching this and Ruth
:07:53. > :07:58.Davidson is the next First Minister, how do I get my school out of local
:07:59. > :08:03.authority control? There is a school that is going to be shut down. It is
:08:04. > :08:07.a catholic school. Their patents they have a business model that is
:08:08. > :08:12.ready to go. They think we have got the plan in place and the teaching
:08:13. > :08:17.in place to rant at outside local authority control. We see this
:08:18. > :08:21.should not be stopped from doing so. We have a good example in Jordanhill
:08:22. > :08:25.and Glasgow, a school that has been run outside local authority control
:08:26. > :08:30.for some time. It is not completely new but that should be allowed to
:08:31. > :08:35.happen. Whether schools are in or out of local authority control are
:08:36. > :08:38.you saying you are agnostic? No. I am not good to be proscriptive but
:08:39. > :08:42.all schools must be one or the other. The point about believing as
:08:43. > :08:45.I do that children are not all the same, should not be topless scene,
:08:46. > :08:57.it about empowering the leadership of the
:08:58. > :09:13.school -- should not be topped the same. People feel disconnected from
:09:14. > :09:17.Holyrood. Local oversight is not beer. Centralisation of colleges and
:09:18. > :09:20.services. People should be empowered to make decisions when they know
:09:21. > :09:28.better than faceless bureaucrats at Holyrood. The graduate tax, you say
:09:29. > :09:35.you want ?6,000... Contribution. What a lot of people will think is
:09:36. > :09:39.that there is a low the level in England. Scottish universities are
:09:40. > :09:44.at a disadvantage and they would still be in the though there a
:09:45. > :09:49.graduate tax. Scottish universities say they want more money in the
:09:50. > :09:53.system to compete. Universities punch above their weight in the
:09:54. > :09:57.world. People say this is the thin end of a wedge. We are seeing this
:09:58. > :10:05.as the policy, this is how we want to roll it out. Inters... Parliament
:10:06. > :10:13.this is for people who then graduate and are earning more than ?20,000.
:10:14. > :10:23.You give no guarantee. The ?6,000 is for an honours degree. In end
:10:24. > :10:25.understand that ?1000 it is now ?9,000 why should anybody believe
:10:26. > :10:29.that under a Conservative administration would not start at
:10:30. > :10:34.?6,000 for an honours degree course and writer ?25,000? Because we have
:10:35. > :10:45.a separate education system. These are my proposals. Once you breach
:10:46. > :10:50.the principle of having three higher education there will inevitably be
:10:51. > :10:58.pressure from the educational establishment, the situation in the
:10:59. > :11:02.economy, to produce these up. Nothing is inevitable. There used to
:11:03. > :11:05.be a contribution. It was then scrapped. We are looking at a model
:11:06. > :11:10.by which we know that people who graduate with a degree are likely to
:11:11. > :11:13.earn ?100,000 in their working life more than somebody without. We are
:11:14. > :11:16.asking them to pay a small proportion of that back into the
:11:17. > :11:20.education system which has helped them. We want to charge students
:11:21. > :11:24.from overseas and Europe or June be a penny for the degree that they get
:11:25. > :11:29.out off Scotland. They do not have to make any contribution. That would
:11:30. > :11:34.raise ?100 million to help the further and higher education in
:11:35. > :11:39.Scotland. Yes the state should put in lots but this should be a
:11:40. > :11:47.contribution that those that directly benefit. And the important
:11:48. > :11:50.thing is the money would be used to help people from Bhullar backbones
:11:51. > :11:56.get into university because in Scotland that is not happening. --
:11:57. > :11:59.help people from less well-off backgrounds. If people to leave the
:12:00. > :12:03.help people from less well-off European Union and I know you are
:12:04. > :12:08.against that, and the SNP say they want to have a referendum, should
:12:09. > :12:09.against that, and the SNP say they David Cameron block that? I do not
:12:10. > :12:16.think there is any grounds at all... David Cameron block that? I do not
:12:17. > :12:20.Should the British Government have the right to say that is it we will
:12:21. > :12:26.not allow you to do that? There is no mandate for the SNP party to say
:12:27. > :12:33.that Brexit is the trigger. There is no mandate for that. In the same way
:12:34. > :12:43.Scotland have voted yes... Let me finish. She said this is a material
:12:44. > :12:48.change was not the you thought that the other way. Scotland voted yes in
:12:49. > :12:53.2014 with the other side of that I would be that I could see letters
:12:54. > :12:58.have another referendum because the oil price tanked, that is a material
:12:59. > :13:01.change. No. The egg in it was signed by the UK Government and the
:13:02. > :13:06.Scottish Government to say the the result of the referendum. After this
:13:07. > :13:10.election will you be the main opposition? Yes. And I will work so
:13:11. > :13:16.hard for people to hold them to account. We asked Willie Rennie but
:13:17. > :13:24.you will be doing for the rest of the campaign. Do you have any plans
:13:25. > :13:30.to sit on a tag any form of lethal weapon? No thanks in this campaign
:13:31. > :13:31.that there might be other forms of transport.
:13:32. > :13:33.We'll have continuing coverage of the election campaign
:13:34. > :13:37.On Tuesday, energy and the environment is the subject
:13:38. > :13:39.of an hour long debate on Scotland 2016.
:13:40. > :13:41.A studio audience will get their chance to put
:13:42. > :13:43.questions to politicians, chaired by Shelley Jofre.
:13:44. > :13:46.That's on Tuesday on BBC Two Scotland at half past ten.
:13:47. > :13:51.I'll be back at the same time next week.