:01:18. > :01:19.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: With two weeks
:01:20. > :01:21.to go to the election, we complete our series
:01:22. > :01:23.of party leader interviews with Labour's Kezia Dugdale
:01:24. > :01:36.And with me for the duration, three journalists whom no-one puts
:01:37. > :01:39.at the back of the queue - or even the line.
:01:40. > :01:41.Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn -
:01:42. > :01:44.they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:45. > :01:47.So, Air Force One left Stanstead Airport a few hours ago
:01:48. > :01:51.and the President is now in Hanover, Germany.
:01:52. > :01:54.But the reverberations of Mr Obama's intervention in the EU referendum
:01:55. > :01:59.On Friday, the President told a press conference
:02:00. > :02:06.the EU, it would be at the back of the queue when it comes to doing
:02:07. > :02:09.a free trade deal with the US - comments he was asked about in a BBC
:02:10. > :02:13.The UK would not be able to negotiate something with the United
:02:14. > :02:20.We wouldn't abandon our efforts to negotiate a trade deal with our
:02:21. > :02:29.largest trading partner, the European market, but rather,
:02:30. > :02:33.it could be five years from now, ten years
:02:34. > :02:38.from now, before we were able to actually get something done.
:02:39. > :02:40.And I'm joined now by the Justice Minister and Leave
:02:41. > :02:53.Welcome to the programme. Mr Obama, 5-10 years for a free-trade deal
:02:54. > :02:57.with the UK under the EU. He's right, isn't he? What was most
:02:58. > :03:01.interesting this morning was how far he has backtracked since Friday
:03:02. > :03:05.evening. As you said, we were told we would be sent to the back of the
:03:06. > :03:10.queue if we didn't take his advice and stay in the EU. Now, he has said
:03:11. > :03:17.that if Britain was independent from the EU, we could not expect to do a
:03:18. > :03:22.free-trade deal quicker than with the EU. No one is really expecting
:03:23. > :03:28.that, so I think the reality is that these things can take time. It has
:03:29. > :03:35.taken almost 40 years even to get to this stage with a stalled EU- US
:03:36. > :03:39.deal. I think we would be better placed, and we are not prejudiced by
:03:40. > :03:45.being outside the EU in doing that. The president has made it clear that
:03:46. > :03:49.American power will do regional deals. That is why he has put so
:03:50. > :03:54.much energy into a specific deal with the 11 countries. He wants to
:03:55. > :04:00.do and EU deal involving all the EU members. The only started in 2013,
:04:01. > :04:04.they haven't been at it for 40 years. We have been talking about it
:04:05. > :04:10.for 40 years. That is a different matter. The negotiations started in
:04:11. > :04:13.2013. We would be a long way behind these two megadeal. When he said we
:04:14. > :04:20.were at the back of the queue, I was a bit startled, so I went and
:04:21. > :04:22.checked. The US has no other bilateral negotiations for a freight
:04:23. > :04:30.train with any other country than the EU. When you look at the 23
:04:31. > :04:34.trade deals it has, none of them are worth an economy bigger than
:04:35. > :04:37.Britain. Let's remember that if America signed a trade deal with us,
:04:38. > :04:42.it would be the equivalent of the North American trade deal because...
:04:43. > :04:47.I think we have strong mutual interest in doing it. America had a
:04:48. > :04:55.number of bilateral free trade talks going on with about 15 different
:04:56. > :04:59.countries. It essentially froze them because it wants to do regional
:05:00. > :05:04.deals - why would it reopen at Mr Ross? In the last 25 years, it has
:05:05. > :05:09.done a string of bilateral and regional negotiations, given the
:05:10. > :05:14.collapse of WTO talks, the Pacific deal was done. The EU one is stuck
:05:15. > :05:19.in the mud. If Britain came out of the EU, saying, we are not shackled
:05:20. > :05:22.by the special interests of film-makers who don't want American
:05:23. > :05:28.box sets polluting French culture, we want insist on the labelling
:05:29. > :05:32.requirements unfettered cheese that the Greeks do. And we won't have a
:05:33. > :05:35.dispute about the settlement mechanism that the Europeans are
:05:36. > :05:38.concerned about and people are concerned about in this country. It
:05:39. > :05:42.is important to understand why the Americans insist on that, because
:05:43. > :05:46.they don't trust the court systems in many European countries will stop
:05:47. > :05:49.American firms trust British courts to resolve commercial this beautiful
:05:50. > :05:56.stop all of these problems will be swept away, and I think we would be
:05:57. > :06:00.well placed. If we're done with the EU and we not a member, the EU will
:06:01. > :06:05.have free trade with United States and we don't know when we will have
:06:06. > :06:13.it. It could give a huge advantage to the French, Germans, Italians and
:06:14. > :06:22.Spanish. We know that the White House briefs out... The White House
:06:23. > :06:26.regularly briefed it. If you look at White House commentary, let me just
:06:27. > :06:31.put this to you - if America was my priority is the EU deal, the best
:06:32. > :06:34.way of ramping up its negotiations leveraged would be to come to a
:06:35. > :06:39.relatively quick deal with Britain. That would put the pressure on. In
:06:40. > :06:45.trade negotiations, America had a history of doing that. Do you accept
:06:46. > :06:50.that whatever our relationship with the EU, if we read, we can have no
:06:51. > :06:55.full access to the single market unless we agree to free movement of
:06:56. > :06:59.people? It depends what you mean by full access to the single market. I
:07:00. > :07:08.think we would not see any trade barriers go up because we are the
:07:09. > :07:12.fifth biggest economy in the world, but it means we can have proper
:07:13. > :07:16.control of our borders and we will not be bound by the stifling
:07:17. > :07:19.regulation that gives us a competitive disadvantage. It is
:07:20. > :07:23.important for small businesses here. You still don't know if we would
:07:24. > :07:27.have access to the single market. You can't tell as that. Everyone who
:07:28. > :07:32.does who is not a member of the EU has had to agree to free movement.
:07:33. > :07:36.It is a strawman to say, I can't tell you what the deal looks like
:07:37. > :07:41.until we have had the referendum. I can tell you this: Look at the
:07:42. > :07:46.options being put at their - Swiss, Norwegian, Turkish. I think because
:07:47. > :07:53.Britain's economy is bigger than all of those combined, and because
:07:54. > :07:57.French farmers and German car manufacturers sell as ?60 billion
:07:58. > :08:00.more each year than we sell them, we are very well placed and mutual
:08:01. > :08:05.self-interest suggests we would cut a good deal.
:08:06. > :08:10.How would we have more control over borders if we left? We would have
:08:11. > :08:13.control over who could come to work here, I understand that, if we want
:08:14. > :08:18.in the EU any more, provided we weren't part of the single market,
:08:19. > :08:21.but how would we be able to stop people coming here? Do you think if
:08:22. > :08:28.we leave the EU that, if you're French or German or Italian, you
:08:29. > :08:32.would need a Visa? There are two issues: The numbers, and I think
:08:33. > :08:35.that as the Home Secretary conceded, we cannot control the numbers
:08:36. > :08:41.because of free movement if we are in the EU, and that makes life
:08:42. > :08:45.harder. The second question is, checks at the border, preventative
:08:46. > :08:48.ones. Under UK law with non-EU countries, we can stop someone
:08:49. > :08:53.coming in because it is not conducive to the public good. With
:08:54. > :08:59.the EU, we can only deny entry if there is a serious, credible and
:09:00. > :09:04.present threat. Which we do. As a result, since 2010, 6000 people have
:09:05. > :09:10.been turned back from the EU. If you compare that with people from out
:09:11. > :09:18.with the EU, we have registered to 60 7000. That shows the stronger
:09:19. > :09:23.checks. I understand, but my question is, outside the EU, we
:09:24. > :09:28.would not insist on visas for the Germans, French and so on? We would
:09:29. > :09:34.have to look at that as part of the negotiations. At the moment, the
:09:35. > :09:39.Obama Administration is looking at new Visa requirement and screening
:09:40. > :09:43.from Germany, Belgium, Greece, France because of the recent
:09:44. > :09:47.terrorist attacks. I think we should at least have the power and control
:09:48. > :09:52.to do that to keep Britain safe. Then we would need a Visa to go to
:09:53. > :09:57.France and Germany. A final question: Why do you not want the
:09:58. > :10:00.leader of the National front in France, Marine Le Pen, to come here?
:10:01. > :10:05.She's one of your biggest supporters. Her views are racist and
:10:06. > :10:10.I don't share her values. I think our party is deeply offensive. But
:10:11. > :10:15.she is on your site. All the more reason why I wouldn't like to see
:10:16. > :10:20.her come. So we do have control over our borders of the Home Secretary
:10:21. > :10:25.can stop coming? People from outside the EU, rappers like snoop doggy
:10:26. > :10:28.dog, have been barred entry because they have a offensive views. If the
:10:29. > :10:34.Home Secretary checks with officials, we probably cannot be
:10:35. > :10:37.nigh Marine Le Pen entry. It is another demonstration of the things
:10:38. > :10:39.we can't do because we don't have the proper controls of our borders.
:10:40. > :10:42.Thank you. Jeremy Corbyn will get his first big
:10:43. > :10:45.electoral test in just under two weeks' time, when voters go
:10:46. > :10:47.to the polls in local Opposition parties usually do
:10:48. > :10:50.well in these contests, even when they've just
:10:51. > :10:52.lost a general election. But with analysts predicting
:10:53. > :10:54.that the party could actually lose councillors, party
:10:55. > :10:55.strategists are There's a simple principle
:10:56. > :11:03.in British politics - if you want to win elections, you need to win
:11:04. > :11:08.seats of every shape and size. When in government, parties tend
:11:09. > :11:12.to lose council seats. In opposition,
:11:13. > :11:16.they tend to win them. Even Michael Foot, who went
:11:17. > :11:19.on to lead Labour to its biggest general election defeat
:11:20. > :11:25.ever, did pretty well to start with. In his first electoral test,
:11:26. > :11:27.in 1981, the party took When Neil Kinnock became leader,
:11:28. > :11:33.he also managed a more And then Ed Miliband,
:11:34. > :11:46.he picked up 857 seats. Since local government was invented
:11:47. > :11:48.in its modern form in 1974,
:11:49. > :11:52.there have been only two years - 1982 and 1985 - when the opposition
:11:53. > :11:55.party has actually lost seats in a local
:11:56. > :11:58.election if it is not So far, so historically positive for
:11:59. > :12:04.Jeremy Corbyn. The problem is, experts in the field
:12:05. > :12:09.reckon Labour could lose 150 seats in these English
:12:10. > :12:14.council elections. Even the party machine has been
:12:15. > :12:18.managing expectations. You simply can't
:12:19. > :12:20.explain away any kind of net loss of seats
:12:21. > :12:23.in these elections. After all, a new leader
:12:24. > :12:29.in the middle of his honeymoon period following on from
:12:30. > :12:33.a disastrous mega-galactic shambles of a budget failure shouldn't expect
:12:34. > :12:36.to see anything other than dramatic gains in the local
:12:37. > :12:40.elections that follow. Anything else,
:12:41. > :12:41.historically speaking, is It's an argument put forward by some
:12:42. > :12:49.of his MPs. I'm not going to put
:12:50. > :12:51.a specific number on it, but 300-400 seats would be a good
:12:52. > :12:54.step in the We have to be ambitious,
:12:55. > :13:00.because we are the Labour Party, and we are a
:13:01. > :13:03.party of government. We exist in order to be
:13:04. > :13:05.in Government and make a difference Southampton, that is where
:13:06. > :13:10.Ed Miliband has been... The last time this batch of council
:13:11. > :13:13.seats were contested, Labour under Southampton was one of a number
:13:14. > :13:23.of areas where Labour failed to capitalise in the general election,
:13:24. > :13:25.losing a Parliamentary If Jeremy Corbyn wants to be
:13:26. > :13:30.Prime Minister in 2020, he will be expected to make inroads now in many
:13:31. > :13:33.of the English council areas, and I think that all
:13:34. > :13:40.leaders are judged by We've got from now until
:13:41. > :13:44.the 5th of May to deliver positive and encouraging
:13:45. > :13:48.results for Labour. It's always hard to compare
:13:49. > :13:49.historic elections. There are always different
:13:50. > :13:53.political contexts, varying numbers of seats up grabs,
:13:54. > :13:57.but rightly or wrongly, several Labour MPs I've spoken
:13:58. > :13:59.to will do just that, conscious that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:00. > :14:02.could make history for the And we're joined now
:14:03. > :14:09.from Salford by the Shadow Education Secretary,
:14:10. > :14:19.Lucy Powell. Welcome to the programme, Lucy
:14:20. > :14:22.Powell. Your Labour MP Carly, Stephen Kinnock, says you should be
:14:23. > :14:28.gaining an extra 300-400 council seat in England - does that seem
:14:29. > :14:33.right? I won't get into the predictions game. Like Stephen, like
:14:34. > :14:38.Jeremy and the rest of the Shadow Cabinet, I am optimistic about these
:14:39. > :14:44.elections. We are a political party and always looking to make gains and
:14:45. > :14:48.progress at every electoral test. These elections are no different. I
:14:49. > :14:55.won't get into the predictions business. Hold on. What about the
:14:56. > :14:59.principle that new opposition leaders always do pretty well in
:15:00. > :15:07.their first electoral test? I was looking at the record - Ed Miliband,
:15:08. > :15:11.Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock, even Michael Foot, they all made gains.
:15:12. > :15:16.We must expect Jeremy Corbyn to do the same, surely?
:15:17. > :15:26.I have been hoping we will make progress. Do you think you will make
:15:27. > :15:30.gains? We are looking at winning in London for the first time since
:15:31. > :15:35.2004, we are looking to make progress in the local elections, we
:15:36. > :15:40.are looking to stay in power in Wales. Obviously in Scotland things
:15:41. > :15:43.are difficult there and they are long-term legacy issues for the
:15:44. > :15:47.Labour Party to deal with in Scotland but you do have to set it
:15:48. > :15:52.into context. It has been an incredibly tough year for the Labour
:15:53. > :15:57.Party, we suffered a crushing election defeat. That was not even a
:15:58. > :16:03.year ago, which we weren't expecting and everybody else wasn't expecting
:16:04. > :16:08.either. We had a long, drawn-out leadership contest. We have a new
:16:09. > :16:13.leader in Jeremy Corbyn and it takes time for everybody to adjust to
:16:14. > :16:18.that. But I think we have had a very positive few weeks where we have
:16:19. > :16:24.been on the front foot, we have been effective opposition, with issues
:16:25. > :16:30.like the Budget... We haven't got too much time. Let me put it in
:16:31. > :16:35.context. The Tories have divided and they are in disarray, last month
:16:36. > :16:44.brought yet another omnishambles Budget. Why would you not be poised
:16:45. > :16:57.for big gains? I am very hopeful we will get big gains. London will be a
:16:58. > :17:01.big gain, we haven't won since 2004. What I'm interested in is how we on
:17:02. > :17:05.the right track for winning in 2020, and that is a really tough job. I
:17:06. > :17:11.don't think anyone underestimates the challenge we face as a political
:17:12. > :17:15.party. Let me see if I can pin you down. Maybe one of the reasons it is
:17:16. > :17:24.not an easy job is that you may not be in tune with the public mood.
:17:25. > :17:28.This chart shows they regularly rate immigration one of their number one
:17:29. > :17:34.concern is, ahead of the NHS and the economy, this is recent poll. Most
:17:35. > :17:38.are not against immigration but they think the influx is too high. How
:17:39. > :17:43.does that square with Jeremy Corbyn's view that we have not let
:17:44. > :17:49.too many in? All of these issues we have got to think deeply about and
:17:50. > :17:52.there is an urgency to that. Immigration, welfare, the economy,
:17:53. > :17:57.these were all issues at the last election but that was only a few
:17:58. > :18:03.months ago. If we knew the answer is, if we knew how we would make
:18:04. > :18:07.labour relevant again, the Labour values I care about, how we will
:18:08. > :18:10.make them relevant in the modern world, if I had those answers we
:18:11. > :18:17.wouldn't be sitting here now because we would be in Government. Do you
:18:18. > :18:24.agree with Jeremy Corbyn... We have got to spend time, doing the
:18:25. > :18:29.difficult job of understanding how the Labour Party can be relevant in
:18:30. > :18:36.the modern world, and that includes issues... If you let me come back to
:18:37. > :18:40.immigration and get a specific answer out of you. Do you agree with
:18:41. > :18:46.Jeremy Corbyn that in recent years we have not let too many in? I don't
:18:47. > :18:51.want to get into a numbers game about immigration. I know from all
:18:52. > :18:54.the work I do on the doorstep, immigration is a massive issue and
:18:55. > :19:02.people have real concerns about the impact that immigration has on some
:19:03. > :19:06.of our communities. As the Labour Party, we have to address those.
:19:07. > :19:11.That's why I thought we were right at the last election to have a
:19:12. > :19:16.policy around the emergency rate for example on benefits for EU migrants,
:19:17. > :19:22.a policy the Government have adopted, but I don't think simple
:19:23. > :19:28.retail policy offers are what Labour's challenge is right now. Our
:19:29. > :19:33.challenge is over the next few years what is our relevant values that we
:19:34. > :19:42.can offer to the public that will help us win the election. Let me
:19:43. > :19:48.come onto education. You asked if you planned to bring academies under
:19:49. > :19:59.local authority control and you said no, by 2020 almost every secondary
:20:00. > :20:05.school will be a free School or an Academy, do you stand by that? Only
:20:06. > :20:11.17% of primary schools are academies. You said nearly every
:20:12. > :20:16.secondary, do you stand by that? I don't know about primary schools,
:20:17. > :20:20.let's see what happens over the next few weeks because the Government's
:20:21. > :20:25.attempt to force all schools against their wishes to become an Academy is
:20:26. > :20:27.on the rocks. They put the brakes on some schools feeling they have no
:20:28. > :20:36.option but to become academies, which is what many schools felt over
:20:37. > :20:40.the last few years. And I understand the policy of making every school
:20:41. > :20:45.and Academy is difficult, I take your point, but you said every
:20:46. > :20:49.secondary school and most primaries will be free schools or an Academy.
:20:50. > :20:56.It is not that different from where the Government wants to end up, is
:20:57. > :21:01.it? You are taking my comments out of context. I was talking about
:21:02. > :21:06.Labour's policy at the next election in that circumstance, and my point
:21:07. > :21:10.is that we have got to look anew at what is the accountability framework
:21:11. > :21:14.for all schools? How do we make sure there are sufficient places in our
:21:15. > :21:17.schools, that we have raising standards in our schools, we have
:21:18. > :21:22.sufficient school improvement support for our schools, and we have
:21:23. > :21:25.proper accountability of some of these Academy chains of which we are
:21:26. > :21:31.seeing many more problems arising with their accountability. That is
:21:32. > :21:37.what I will be looking at. In the short term, I will be fighting tooth
:21:38. > :21:40.and nail the Government's plans to force good and outstanding schools
:21:41. > :21:52.against their wishes to become academies. Jeremy Corbyn has
:21:53. > :22:00.described academise a share -- described... Jeremy said lots of
:22:01. > :22:07.things about the forced programme. Is it asset stripping or not? In
:22:08. > :22:12.some cases it can be. The key question is does it meet the test of
:22:13. > :22:16.school improvement? There is mixed evidence of whether it leads to
:22:17. > :22:23.school improvement, as the education select committee have found. The
:22:24. > :22:26.second question is does it give schools freedom and autonomy? How
:22:27. > :22:31.can that be the case if you are forcing a school against its wish to
:22:32. > :22:37.be an Academy. That is not real autonomy. And the first test is
:22:38. > :22:47.around accountability and there are some very real issues there. Some
:22:48. > :22:51.might call that asset stripping. If our state system is being asset
:22:52. > :22:57.stripped as your leader claims, that would be really serious so is he
:22:58. > :23:02.right or wrong? There have been examples of financial mismanagement
:23:03. > :23:04.in some Academy chains, we have seen those recently where directors have
:23:05. > :23:11.been paying themselves double money by setting up arms length
:23:12. > :23:16.organisations that they are also paying themselves from so there are
:23:17. > :23:21.issues of financial probity which is why both Jeremy and I have been
:23:22. > :23:26.arguing that there needs to be a much more robust financial
:23:27. > :23:34.accountability structure. He seems to be against academies altogether.
:23:35. > :23:39.We have got exactly the same view about this, Jeremy and I have worked
:23:40. > :23:44.closely on these issues and that is that there are some excellent
:23:45. > :23:48.Academy schools, there are also some excellent community schools. This
:23:49. > :23:53.tired argument of pitting one school type against another is frankly
:23:54. > :23:56.over. What we have got to be addressing is ensuring we have good
:23:57. > :24:01.quality teachers and head teachers in all of our schools, something the
:24:02. > :24:04.Government is failing to do. We've got to make sure schools have
:24:05. > :24:13.adequate resources, and they are facing real terms cuts to their
:24:14. > :24:17.budgets, and make sure we have enough places for all of our
:24:18. > :24:23.children. There is a crisis in school places and teacher shortages.
:24:24. > :24:28.Very interesting ground which you have gone over before. I want to
:24:29. > :24:35.show you an advert gone up for a new media spokesperson for Jeremy
:24:36. > :24:41.Corbyn. There is a fixed term contract for Jeremy Corbyn, leader
:24:42. > :24:45.of the Labour Party, running from December 2016 or when he ceases to
:24:46. > :24:51.be leader, whichever is sooner. Which do you think will be sooner? I
:24:52. > :24:56.haven't seen the advert but Jeremy has only been a leader for a few
:24:57. > :25:02.months. OK, you're not going to tell me which would be sooner? We are
:25:03. > :25:04.supporting him in his job and I'm not going to comment on that. Very
:25:05. > :25:07.well. Thank you very much. The party views on Europe
:25:08. > :25:11.and immigration are well-known, but voters may not know
:25:12. > :25:14.what Nigel Farage's Purple Army thinks about issues
:25:15. > :25:16.like recycling and council tax. Ukip, which had never held more
:25:17. > :25:19.than a handful of local election seats before,
:25:20. > :25:21.achieved its first major breakthrough in 2013,
:25:22. > :25:27.when they gained 139 seats. The following year they increased
:25:28. > :25:31.their total by another 161 seats, performing particularly well
:25:32. > :25:35.in parts of Essex. While in 2015, on the same day
:25:36. > :25:37.as the general election, In that set of elections,
:25:38. > :25:46.Ukip won control of Thanet Council in Kent, the first time the party
:25:47. > :25:49.took control of a local council, But within six months they had
:25:50. > :25:54.lost overall control, after five councillors left Ukip,
:25:55. > :25:58.saying they were unhappy with the council's lack of action
:25:59. > :26:01.on a manifesto pledge to reopen So, 2016 is the last year
:26:02. > :26:07.in the four-yearly cycle Will they be able to
:26:08. > :26:16.maintain the momentum? We're joined now by the party's
:26:17. > :26:25.deputy chairman, Diane James. Welcome to the programme. You have
:26:26. > :26:32.got your referendum running strongly in the news, immigration is a huge
:26:33. > :26:36.issue as well. What would be a good result for Ukip in these local
:26:37. > :26:40.elections? Certainly to retain the 20 seat we will be defending this
:26:41. > :26:48.time, but also building on that. We are fielding 1400 candidates out of
:26:49. > :26:52.the 2700 that will be available across the country. We are also
:26:53. > :26:57.fielding candidates in the big Assembly elections - Stormont,
:26:58. > :27:05.Holyrood... And the police crime Commissioner. Are you looking to
:27:06. > :27:12.gain? Of course, we wouldn't be doing anything otherwise. Populist
:27:13. > :29:09.and anti-EU parties are gaining ground right across Europe so
:29:10. > :29:15.This morning, you just reeled off a host of really good examples and I
:29:16. > :29:19.will not take those away from you but have you raise a single one of
:29:20. > :29:24.the councillors across the country who have had to stand down or been
:29:25. > :29:32.suspended for actually quite serious issues? We got individuals decide
:29:33. > :29:35.unilaterally they want to walk away from the Ukip banner. But these
:29:36. > :29:39.individuals who committed real issues and have been suspended or up
:29:40. > :29:45.had to stand out, that is a whole different ball game and I would like
:29:46. > :29:51.to eat -- I would like you to be a bit favour with regards to that. Why
:29:52. > :29:56.should people vote for a party that might not even have a reason to
:29:57. > :30:00.exist after the referendum? Well, we will have a reason to exist because
:30:01. > :30:04.if we do not exist then no one else will hold David Cameron, if the vote
:30:05. > :30:09.to leave happens, hold him to account and make sure it happens.
:30:10. > :30:14.That is my view it. In terms of our councillors, they're in mind, we are
:30:15. > :30:18.the only party out there who do not whip our councillors. That may go
:30:19. > :30:26.back to the explanation. Perhaps just as well. I am not into
:30:27. > :30:30.dominatrix stuff. But that is the thing that some of our cabinet
:30:31. > :30:33.ministers are accused of at the moment. The issue is that there is a
:30:34. > :30:36.real disquiet amongst the electorate that they want to vote for somebody
:30:37. > :30:40.and then they see the systems that are currently in place, whether it
:30:41. > :30:43.is a cabinet system RE committee, there are backbenchers that find
:30:44. > :30:47.themselves in the situation where they cannot contribute to decisions.
:30:48. > :30:53.We are talking about incursions into the green belt, house-building
:30:54. > :30:59.targets. And this is the sort of issue that a modern whipped Ukip
:31:00. > :31:07.counsellor will be able to represent the community. And even if we leave
:31:08. > :31:11.Europe? Yes, Ukip continues. Thank you. And we will be talking to the
:31:12. > :31:16.Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats about the local elections
:31:17. > :31:19.in England next week. You are watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:31:20. > :31:21.goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:31:22. > :31:26.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:31:27. > :31:30.Labour is aiming to to win back members who voted Yes
:31:31. > :31:33.to independence and have switched to the SNP - but will its
:31:34. > :31:39.The SNP hopes to be toasting its third consecutive term in office.
:31:40. > :31:46.Can it continue to manage the expectations of voters?
:31:47. > :31:49.Labour has one clear task in this election -
:31:50. > :31:53.to win back those supporters who voted yes in the independence
:31:54. > :31:59.It's campaigning to use the additional powers coming
:32:00. > :32:04.to Holyrood and on raising taxes which it says will
:32:05. > :32:07.It's an attempt to carve out a distinctively Scottish,
:32:08. > :32:10.But polls suggest that voters are divided on the subject
:32:11. > :32:14.They're not convinced that Scottish Labour can provide
:32:15. > :32:18.Indeed the narrowing of the gap between Labour and the Conservatives
:32:19. > :32:20.could be interpreted as an indication that the party
:32:21. > :32:22.isn't necessarily seen as an effective opposition either.
:32:23. > :32:40.Kezia Dugdale is shooting for success. Or is at least trying to.
:32:41. > :32:45.Kezia Dugdale has been elected. She took over from a Scottish Labour
:32:46. > :32:52.leader just over a year ago, promising to rebuild the party after
:32:53. > :32:57.several crushing election defeats. Kezia Dugdale was born in Aberdeen
:32:58. > :33:03.and studied law at the city's University. She says she became an
:33:04. > :33:08.MSP by accident. Now, as Labour leader, she is trying to position
:33:09. > :33:15.the party as anti-austerity. Labour have clearly decided to pitch from a
:33:16. > :33:20.relatively left-wing area, saying we're going to increase taxes in
:33:21. > :33:22.order to avoid spending cuts. Certainly for around many Scots,
:33:23. > :33:26.including people who say they are going to vote for the SNP, this
:33:27. > :33:31.actually looks like a pretty popular so certainly, Labour's message on
:33:32. > :33:34.tax, if they can persuade people it would deliver better public
:33:35. > :33:39.services, could potentially be a vote winner. Kezia Dugdale says her
:33:40. > :33:45.manifesto will be the most positive one ever, although we have no way to
:33:46. > :33:49.judge that, because she has not published it yet. But we do know
:33:50. > :33:52.Labour wants to boost funding for public services, cat tax the rich to
:33:53. > :33:58.improve education, and scrap council tax. However, the party also faces a
:33:59. > :34:02.post independence referendum challenge. Labour's problem is that
:34:03. > :34:07.maybe as much as two in five of those people who once used to vote
:34:08. > :34:10.for the party voted for independence in September 2014, and very few of
:34:11. > :34:16.them have so far change their minds, and having voted for independence,
:34:17. > :34:20.they now want to carry on voting for the SNP, not only last year, but
:34:21. > :34:27.this year as well. So how might that play out? Kezia Dugdale is Scottish
:34:28. > :34:31.Labour's eight leader since 1999. Our opponents may well wonder how
:34:32. > :34:31.well her party has to do for her to stay in the job.
:34:32. > :34:42.Let's start with independence, shall we? You'd told the Fabian Society
:34:43. > :34:50.that of Scotland voted to stay in the EU and the UK voted to leave,
:34:51. > :34:52.you said you would possibly vote for independence. You have said since
:34:53. > :34:57.then that she did not express yourself very well. What were you
:34:58. > :35:00.thinking? I have made it very clear in the weeks and months since that
:35:01. > :35:05.interview, which was back in February, that I was very proud to
:35:06. > :35:09.vote no. I campaigned for two and a half years to say why Scotland was
:35:10. > :35:12.better placed within the UK and I would do so again and Labour's
:35:13. > :35:20.manifesto... So why did you say that? There is a clear commitment
:35:21. > :35:24.now that we all pose a second referendum on independence. So if we
:35:25. > :35:30.vote to leave the EU and Scotland votes to stay in and there is
:35:31. > :35:37.another independence referendum, you would put staying in the UK ahead of
:35:38. > :35:40.being a Scotland in Europe? As I say, the manifesto which we will
:35:41. > :35:45.publish on Wednesday will have a very clear commitment to oppose a
:35:46. > :35:50.second referendum and there is a reason for that that I would like to
:35:51. > :35:54.get onto talking about. Unless you win the election, it will not be
:35:55. > :35:58.your choice. What I am asking you is if there is... If Scotland does vote
:35:59. > :36:01.to stay in the EU and Britain votes if there is... If Scotland does vote
:36:02. > :36:06.to leave and there is another independence referendum, will you
:36:07. > :36:11.campaign for a no vote under those circumstances? I do not accept that
:36:12. > :36:15.there will be another referendum. Just speculate wildly. In every
:36:16. > :36:19.scenario, I would vote no gain because I believe that the economic
:36:20. > :36:22.case for independence has fallen apart. I believe that the best way
:36:23. > :36:29.to pull and share resources is together. Should Scotland vote to
:36:30. > :36:32.stay in the EU if Britain votes to leave and there is another
:36:33. > :36:36.independence referendum, you will vote to stay in the UK? I will
:36:37. > :36:38.always vote no against independence because the economics of
:36:39. > :36:43.independence have fallen apart but we have got to be very clear. We
:36:44. > :36:47.were told that this was a once in a lifetime, once in a generation
:36:48. > :36:51.opportunity. We spent two and a half years campaigning on the issue and
:36:52. > :36:56.85% of the population voted in that. The result should be respected and
:36:57. > :36:58.we should spend the next five years talking about how we will use the
:36:59. > :37:02.powers of the Scottish Parliament to create a more equal country. I think
:37:03. > :37:05.regardless of whether you are yes or no in that referendum, that is what
:37:06. > :37:08.you want. Move on from those arguments of the past and talk about
:37:09. > :37:13.the powers of the parliament. That is what you say but presumably given
:37:14. > :37:17.what you told us on this programme last autumn, should there be another
:37:18. > :37:20.independence referendum in those circumstances and the SNP say they
:37:21. > :37:26.would like one, there would be nothing to stop the Labour Party
:37:27. > :37:30.members voting and campaigning for a vote to leave the UK and stay in
:37:31. > :37:37.Europe? I can't be any clearer than I have with you today. I was proud
:37:38. > :37:44.to vote no. I would vote no again. When I asked you last autumn weather
:37:45. > :37:49.Labour MPs in this piece -- or MSPs should be able to campaign for
:37:50. > :37:52.independence, you said yes. That is pretty unequivocal. Every Labour MSP
:37:53. > :38:03.that was there during the light of the independence referendum voted
:38:04. > :38:11.no. I've said he very clearly what the platform and the manifesto will
:38:12. > :38:16.say. But you said your MPs should be able to vote yes. I will always vote
:38:17. > :38:19.no. That is not what I am asking you. You have asked a number of
:38:20. > :38:23.questions but I am answering them as clearly as I possibly can. Are you
:38:24. > :38:27.saying that Labour members would not be allowed to campaign for a yes
:38:28. > :38:30.vote? What I have said many times before is the reality that something
:38:31. > :38:33.like a third of Scottish Labour voters around the country to a
:38:34. > :38:36.different position from what the party was advocating for any
:38:37. > :38:39.referendum, because what unites people in the Labour Party is a
:38:40. > :38:44.desire to tackle poverty and inequality. That is what brings us
:38:45. > :38:46.together and what drives us. I am sure it does but it is not an answer
:38:47. > :38:49.to my question. So when the sure it does but it is not an answer
:38:50. > :38:52.Conservatives say that now they are the only big party in Scotland,
:38:53. > :38:56.which clearly an equivocally stands up for the union, you have given
:38:57. > :39:01.these incidents we are going over a year, they have got a point, haven't
:39:02. > :39:04.they? I utterly refute that the Scottish Tories are any good at
:39:05. > :39:09.maintaining and supporting the union. I will give you four very
:39:10. > :39:11.simple reasons why. It was David Cameron within hours of the
:39:12. > :39:14.referendum result who was advocating English books for English laws,
:39:15. > :39:22.which undermined the whole referendum process that we had been
:39:23. > :39:27.through. -- English votes. What the Tories say is that if you do
:39:28. > :39:32.interviews what you say is that you would not inconceivably vote for
:39:33. > :39:36.independence and you say that Labour MPs can campaign for independence if
:39:37. > :39:40.they want to, so then the position of your party is not unambiguous. It
:39:41. > :39:43.is important to say that it is Ruth Davidson who cannot be trusted on
:39:44. > :39:46.the issue because her party have done more to divide working people
:39:47. > :39:50.across this country than anyone can possibly imagine. I am trying to do
:39:51. > :39:53.is to say that we had a very healthy and democratic process in the
:39:54. > :39:57.referendum and the result should be respected. I think people who voted
:39:58. > :40:00.both yes and no want to move on from that and the big issue at this
:40:01. > :40:03.election is how we can use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to
:40:04. > :40:06.deliver that change that so many people want to see. Let me quote you
:40:07. > :40:11.deliver that change that so many from a leader in the daily record,
:40:12. > :40:13.hardly a paper unsympathetic to the Labour Party. They said, the party
:40:14. > :40:18.still have no idea about what to do Labour Party. They said, the party
:40:19. > :40:21.about the surge of support for independence that accompanied the
:40:22. > :40:26.referendum. Their fortunes will not be revived until they do. I think
:40:27. > :40:31.lots of people that voted yes during the referendum voted yes not because
:40:32. > :40:36.they were die-hard emotional nationalists, they voted yes because
:40:37. > :40:40.yes represented a way to change this country, to make it more just, and
:40:41. > :40:44.what I am arguing in this election is that we now have a very powerful
:40:45. > :40:48.Scottish parliament, a substantial tax and welfare powers. We have the
:40:49. > :40:52.ability to stop obscenity and to end the cuts, to make different choices
:40:53. > :40:56.from the Tories and that is what I want to focus on. The chance to use
:40:57. > :41:01.those powers to do something differently from the Tories. Are you
:41:02. > :41:07.going to come ahead of the Tories? I want to win this election, Gordon. I
:41:08. > :41:09.see that the polls are challenging. Will you come ahead of the Tories?
:41:10. > :41:14.see that the polls are challenging. It is not enough for me to aspire to
:41:15. > :41:17.lead the opposition. I want to be in Government. But realistically, is
:41:18. > :41:20.there anything on the doorsteps that tells you you're going to come out
:41:21. > :41:23.clearly ahead of the Conservatives? I caught a little bit of your
:41:24. > :41:27.package from John Curtis. I didn't hear it all as I was coming into the
:41:28. > :41:33.studio but you heard in that package a great deal of support for the
:41:34. > :41:36.policies that we are advocating, particularly around the use of the
:41:37. > :41:39.tax powers. There have been at least three or four balls that say that
:41:40. > :41:41.people like the idea that we have the powers in the Scottish
:41:42. > :41:43.Parliament to make different choices from the Tories, not to use our
:41:44. > :41:45.parliament as a conveyor belt for Tory cuts but to do things
:41:46. > :41:50.differently and Labour bust manifesto would be the first to talk
:41:51. > :41:55.about how to use our tax powers at which gives people an opportunity to
:41:56. > :42:01.vote for change, and into austerity. If you lose to the Tories, will you
:42:02. > :42:04.resign? No. I have said right from the beginning that the Labour
:42:05. > :42:11.Party's problems did not happen overnight and will not be finished
:42:12. > :42:16.overnight. If you come in last? Even if that were to happen, I would
:42:17. > :42:19.absolutely continue in the post. I have always said that I have a
:42:20. > :42:22.long-term plan to turn around the fortunes of the Labour Party. I have
:42:23. > :42:26.just started that work. A very big part of that is putting forward a
:42:27. > :42:29.much clearer sense of what the Scottish Labour Party is for, what
:42:30. > :42:32.we stand for and who we stand with. You can see from the report that
:42:33. > :42:34.John Curtis put out there that there is a lot of support for those
:42:35. > :42:41.John Curtis put out there that there policies. Irrespective of the
:42:42. > :42:44.results, we have had bad news this week, on a climate in Scotland going
:42:45. > :42:48.up faster than anywhere else in Britain. Some economists worry that
:42:49. > :42:53.the Scottish economy could be heading for recession, incomes have
:42:54. > :43:00.been stagnant, we desperately need people to get... To get people
:43:01. > :43:06.spending more money and gets in economic activity going. Just about
:43:07. > :43:09.that last thing, a situation like that, while the Government pay taxes
:43:10. > :43:13.up? Digg it is a very old-fashioned argument to say that the only weak
:43:14. > :43:16.support business is by cutting taxes. Actually, if you look at the
:43:17. > :43:21.growing economies across Europe and wider around the world, the best
:43:22. > :43:23.thing we do in an increasingly globalised world is invest in the
:43:24. > :43:28.schools and the knowledge of our people, so I would say to you,
:43:29. > :43:33.Gordon... Lets not get into it. I can see the argument. Right, good.
:43:34. > :43:37.It is a very good thing to do to invest in schools and people. Right
:43:38. > :43:42.now, when we have got bad news and deployment, when we have stagnant
:43:43. > :43:44.incomes and we are arguably, and as your party has argued, we need a
:43:45. > :43:49.stimulus to the economy, putting your party has argued, we need a
:43:50. > :43:50.taxes up which sucks demand out of the economy is precisely
:43:51. > :43:55.taxes up which sucks demand out of opposite of what we need to be
:43:56. > :44:00.doing, surely? I disagree because if you look at the big employers where
:44:01. > :44:03.we have seen job losses and all of those people out of work, we have to
:44:04. > :44:08.help them gain new skills and new opportunities for the future.
:44:09. > :44:14.But everyone else's taxes up is hardly a way to help the unemployed.
:44:15. > :44:20.Anyone earning less than ?20,000 a year is not going to pay tax. I
:44:21. > :44:24.don't want to get into a discussion about who pays. Overall, if you put
:44:25. > :44:29.people's taxes up, even if it is only a fiver a month, but have
:44:30. > :44:32.either they might not be paying in their local shops, a fiver where
:44:33. > :44:36.they might take the bus, rather than a cab in Aberdeen, where the economy
:44:37. > :44:40.is very distressed and cab drivers could do with the extra money. It is
:44:41. > :44:44.an economic basic - you're taking the band out of the economy. I'm
:44:45. > :44:47.afraid that's not correct and there is an independent expert's at Vicey
:44:48. > :44:51.can point to de Bruyn that'll stop the IPPR have proved that more
:44:52. > :45:00.action leads to an increase in GDP into the billions of pounds. By
:45:01. > :45:04.when? Our plans are for the lifetime of the next Parliament. That's the
:45:05. > :45:07.manifesto proposal. It still doesn't answer my point that taking demand
:45:08. > :45:11.out of the economy... Look, if you can provide analysis that shows that
:45:12. > :45:16.spending public money on schools and education in the short term puts
:45:17. > :45:21.more money into the economy than the tax spending that you take out of
:45:22. > :45:26.it, then fine, but I'll bet my bottom dollar you can't produce any
:45:27. > :45:28.evidence showing that. A part of the problem in Scotland today is how
:45:29. > :45:32.short-term our approach to public policy is. The Labour Party is the
:45:33. > :45:36.only one advocating about what Scotland might look like in ten, 20,
:45:37. > :45:43.30 years, and the decisions that we have to make now... I'm talking in
:45:44. > :45:49.the papers today about the need to invest in coding skills. The last
:45:50. > :45:51.Labour government face the financial crisis in 2008 and clearly hadn't
:45:52. > :45:57.read the Kezia Dugdale economic expert. They cut VAT as a way of
:45:58. > :46:00.pumping money into the economy for top you're proposing to do the
:46:01. > :46:04.opposite. If you look at growing economies across Europe and across
:46:05. > :46:07.the world, those that are doing well are investing in the skills and
:46:08. > :46:10.knowledge of their people. I want Scotland to have a world-class
:46:11. > :46:14.education system, where we invest in the skills and training for people
:46:15. > :46:17.at all ages. You can't do that, though, without finding the money to
:46:18. > :46:21.do that and the reality is, not only could we make the wrong choice by
:46:22. > :46:25.not pursuing this path but we will face further cuts if we are left
:46:26. > :46:28.following the decisions of the SNP and the Tories, which will
:46:29. > :46:33.exacerbate the problem. Can I ask you about another issue, named
:46:34. > :46:36.persons' legislation. Jenny Marra, one of your closest colleagues, said
:46:37. > :46:41.she regretted that she voted for it in the first place and that she
:46:42. > :46:44.would now oppose it. Is Labour now opposed to a? No, we support the
:46:45. > :46:47.would now oppose it. Is Labour now Prince will of named person. I was
:46:48. > :46:53.the education spokesperson for the party during the passage of that
:46:54. > :46:56.bill. Why is Jenny Marra wrong? Every leading children's charity in
:46:57. > :46:59.the country came to me and said that this was what we needed to do to
:47:00. > :47:02.protect the most vulnerable children and we supported that. We made some
:47:03. > :47:07.very serious statements and concerns about the debate, which was
:47:08. > :47:10.resourced. We were worried that the money wasn't there to do this
:47:11. > :47:13.properly but we supported the principle. What has happened in
:47:14. > :47:16.recent months and weeks as I've travelled the country and my
:47:17. > :47:19.colleagues have done likewise, and we have met countless parents and
:47:20. > :47:23.families who are at their wits' end with worry about this proposal,
:47:24. > :47:27.which is why in recent weeks, I have said that if there was a Labour
:47:28. > :47:31.government, we would pause the introduction of this legislation.
:47:32. > :47:34.There is an important point to come here. I have to say this to you. We
:47:35. > :47:40.would ask the children's commissioner who supports the scheme
:47:41. > :47:44.to try and rebuild that trust and faith which has been lost before it
:47:45. > :47:48.is introduced. With your manifesto have a commitment to scrapping
:47:49. > :47:52.Trident? The manifesto will say that following a decision taken as a
:47:53. > :47:57.party conference in table, we oppose the renewal of Trident and we would
:47:58. > :48:01.like to see those jobs protected with the defence diversification
:48:02. > :48:04.agency. And you won't agree with a word of it? I have said for many
:48:05. > :48:07.months now and on your programme before now but when I took over the
:48:08. > :48:13.leadership of the Labour Party there were mixed views on the future of
:48:14. > :48:18.Trident. For me as leader, I did some unique, to have a healthy
:48:19. > :48:21.democratic process. Every other party leader I've interviewed, at
:48:22. > :48:25.least I can rely on the fact that what's in their manifesto might be a
:48:26. > :48:28.load of old rubbish but they actually do believe in it. You are
:48:29. > :48:32.the first leader I've interviewed who doesn't agree with a very
:48:33. > :48:36.important issue that in their own manifesto. The manifesto that we'll
:48:37. > :48:38.important issue that in their own be publishing this week is a
:48:39. > :48:42.programme for government for the next five years of the Scottish
:48:43. > :48:45.Parliament elections. It is driven fundamentally by a different... A
:48:46. > :48:51.lot of people watching this will just say, hang on a minute - she
:48:52. > :48:54.doesn't even agree with what's on her own manifesto. That tells you
:48:55. > :48:57.all you need to know about the Labour Party in Scotland. The
:48:58. > :49:01.difference between the SNP and the Tories and Labour is that whilst
:49:02. > :49:05.they obsess with personality style elections, what you have in the
:49:06. > :49:08.Labour manifesto is a manifesto, a set of policies and platforms, that
:49:09. > :49:12.have been brought together in a healthy, democratic way through our
:49:13. > :49:17.movement with our party members, the trade unions, hundreds of
:49:18. > :49:20.stakeholders across the country. Is there a big idea in your manifesto
:49:21. > :49:24.you haven't announced it? You're on national TV - you might as well say
:49:25. > :49:28.it. The biggest idea we have is applied to stop the cuts and invest
:49:29. > :49:32.in education. So there is no big new idea in your manifesto. It's the
:49:33. > :49:35.same idea we've been arguing for months and that's what you expect.
:49:36. > :49:41.With you ever become First Minister? I very much hope so. But are you
:49:42. > :49:43.confident? I would love the opportunity to serve this country.
:49:44. > :49:45.OK, thank you. The SNP is hoping to secure it's
:49:46. > :49:48.third consecutive term in government, and even
:49:49. > :49:49.the opposition parties concede that it's likely
:49:50. > :49:51.to succeed in that aspiration. Nicola Sturgeon, leading her party
:49:52. > :49:54.into a Scottish election for the first time, says she's
:49:55. > :49:57.immensely proud of what the party has achieved over the past nine
:49:58. > :49:59.years, but stresses that "the journey to a fairer,
:50:00. > :50:01.more equal and prosperous With more powers over tax
:50:02. > :50:04.and spending, pledges to grow the economy,
:50:05. > :50:06.increase spending on the NHS and education and create
:50:07. > :50:09.a new social security bill, can the party take us further along
:50:10. > :50:21.that journey and closer Pretty much everyone accepts Nicola
:50:22. > :50:27.Sturgeon's SNP will be toasting a third term in office this may. The
:50:28. > :50:33.party has been attracting new members by the thousand, who seem to
:50:34. > :50:38.like the SNP's collection policies, which include boosting NHS funding
:50:39. > :50:42.and free childcare, and the party's defining mission - closing the
:50:43. > :50:47.attainment gap in education. The SNP's strength lies in the fact that
:50:48. > :50:52.of the 45% people who voted for independence in September 2014, most
:50:53. > :50:53.of them are now voting for the SNP and are wanting to reaffirm their
:50:54. > :51:00.of them are now voting for the SNP support for independence I backing
:51:01. > :51:03.the party. So the truth is, the party's commitment to independence,
:51:04. > :51:06.albeit one that it may not try to deliver for the next five years, is
:51:07. > :51:10.undoubtedly the central calling card that the SNP have in this election,
:51:11. > :51:15.much as they did 12 months ago. Success has been a long time coming
:51:16. > :51:19.for Nicola Sturgeon, who was born in urban and join the SNP as a
:51:20. > :51:26.teenager. The former solicitor was elected as an MSP in 1999. And in
:51:27. > :51:33.2014 she became leader of the SNP and Scotland's first female First
:51:34. > :51:38.Minister. Rubbish! You're a harsh critic! But Ms Sturgeon has her
:51:39. > :51:41.critics and there are other challenges. The danger that perhaps
:51:42. > :51:44.the SNP have to avoid is challenges. The danger that perhaps
:51:45. > :51:49.because they are appearing to be largely reluctant to use their new
:51:50. > :51:54.taxation powers in order to increase spending in Scotland, as to whether
:51:55. > :51:57.or not that we'll begin to disenchant some of their voters,
:51:58. > :51:59.many of whom have switched to the party from Labour because they
:52:00. > :52:05.thought it was the more left-wing party. Certainly not being seen to
:52:06. > :52:09.be left-wing enough and, as a result, not Scottish above, is
:52:10. > :52:12.certainly the potential pitfall. That said, there's no indication of
:52:13. > :52:18.a dip in the SNP's popularity any time soon.
:52:19. > :52:21.Bra second interview of the day we are turning to the SNP. -- for our
:52:22. > :52:23.second interview. A short while ago I spoke
:52:24. > :52:29.to the First Minister and SNP You say in your manifesto that
:52:30. > :52:34.reason for holding another independence referendum would be if
:52:35. > :52:38.there is a significant material change in the circumstances
:52:39. > :52:43.prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against
:52:44. > :52:48.our will. So if Scotland votes to stay in the EU but Britain votes to
:52:49. > :52:51.leave, will there be another independence referendum? There may
:52:52. > :52:56.well be. But will there be? Is a your plan to have one? I think that
:52:57. > :53:00.would depend on the circumstances and the narrowness of the results
:53:01. > :53:03.overall. I'm hoping that scenario doesn't arrive, which is why I'm a
:53:04. > :53:07.bit reluctant to get dragged into all of the spec elation around.
:53:08. > :53:10.Abbey campaigning very hard for Scotland to vote to stay in and I
:53:11. > :53:16.hope the rest of the UK votes to stay in. -- I'll be campaigning. But
:53:17. > :53:19.given the centrality of the issue to the Scottish referendum and the fact
:53:20. > :53:23.that those campaigning them for a no vote said we would get chucked out
:53:24. > :53:26.of Europe if we voted yes, to get taken out of Europe now against our
:53:27. > :53:30.will would, to many people, including people who voted no in
:53:31. > :53:34.2014, say it is time to think again. I'm not asking you a spec that of
:53:35. > :53:39.question. You are the First Minister of Scotland. You are quite likely to
:53:40. > :53:42.be the First Minister of Scotland. I'm asking you as First Minister, if
:53:43. > :53:47.that scenario comes to pass, will you hold another referendum? I think
:53:48. > :53:49.it is highly likely will have another referendum in those
:53:50. > :53:53.circumstances because people will want to protect our man Bishop of
:53:54. > :53:56.the EU. But what I'm also saying is that notwithstanding my lifelong,
:53:57. > :54:02.passionate supporter and dependence, I hope those are not the
:54:03. > :54:07.circumstances. -- supporter of independence. You are the First
:54:08. > :54:12.Minister. Will you organise it? If we are taken out of the EU against
:54:13. > :54:14.our will, I will want to give the people of Scotland the opportunity
:54:15. > :54:20.to protect our U membership by looking again at the opportunity of
:54:21. > :54:25.independence I will the circumstances at the time. What does
:54:26. > :54:31.that mean? It means exactly what I'm telling you. I can't be any clearer.
:54:32. > :54:34.I think you could be a lot clearer. What does judging the circumstances
:54:35. > :54:37.mean? We would have to wait to see what the precise outcome of the
:54:38. > :54:41.referendum was, what the narrowness or otherwise of the result was in
:54:42. > :54:45.Scotland versus the rest of the UK, but I am saying very clearly I think
:54:46. > :54:50.that would be a democratically unacceptable situation for Scotland
:54:51. > :54:55.to be in. If Scotland votes to stay in the EU but Britain votes to leave
:54:56. > :54:57.and if it's quite a clear vote... In the circumstances, we would almost
:54:58. > :55:01.and if it's quite a clear vote... In certainly be in this situation of
:55:02. > :55:05.looking again at independence. Even if the poll showed you would win an
:55:06. > :55:07.independence referendum? That is exactly the situation I'm describing
:55:08. > :55:12.in terms of judging the circumstances. In the event that
:55:13. > :55:16.that scenario arises... But I know personally people who have voted no
:55:17. > :55:21.in 2014 and did so quite pass he would change their dip to an
:55:22. > :55:28.independence should that price. But again, I hope the situation doesn't
:55:29. > :55:34.arise. I take your point. You are not being clear on this. A lot of
:55:35. > :55:36.people suspect that what the SNP's real policy is is to hold an
:55:37. > :55:41.independence referendum when the polls are going your way. If this
:55:42. > :55:46.issue of Europe is a matter of principle for you and if Scotland
:55:47. > :55:51.votes by a substantial majority to stay in and Britain votes to leave,
:55:52. > :55:53.why can't you say, irrespective of what the polls show about
:55:54. > :55:58.independence we should have another referendum? I think democracy
:55:59. > :56:00.matters in the round and you choose to characterise it as me wanting
:56:01. > :56:05.another referendum when the polls show I can win it but what I'm
:56:06. > :56:08.saying is rooted in democracy. There will be another referendum on
:56:09. > :56:10.independence in Scotland if and when there is evidence that a majority of
:56:11. > :56:14.people want there to be independence. I actually think that
:56:15. > :56:21.is likely. Which means, when the polls go your way. When people of
:56:22. > :56:25.change their opinion from 2014. That means when the polls go your way.
:56:26. > :56:29.You are choosing to characterise it as that. I would characterise it as
:56:30. > :56:33.when people have changed their minds from the situation in 2014. It is,
:56:34. > :56:36.if you like, respectively 2014 decision. If people don't change
:56:37. > :56:40.their view, I'd only get would be right to say that we should ask the
:56:41. > :56:43.question again. Equally, if people do change their view, it would be
:56:44. > :56:48.wrong to stand on the way of that. It's absolutely rooted in democracy.
:56:49. > :56:52.What you are actually saying is, if Scotland votes to stay in the EU by
:56:53. > :56:55.a substantial majority and Britain votes to leave, you would like to
:56:56. > :57:00.hold a referendum but you won't hold a referendum if the polls show you
:57:01. > :57:04.won't win it? I am saying that my position on a second referendum is
:57:05. > :57:07.rigid in democracy. If we are in the situation, which I hope doesn't
:57:08. > :57:11.arise, that Scotland is effectively facing the prospect of being dragged
:57:12. > :57:14.out of the EU against our will, I think there will be an overwhelming
:57:15. > :57:20.demand to look again at the question of independence. The question I'm
:57:21. > :57:24.asking you is, is holding a referendum for you a matter of
:57:25. > :57:27.principle on the issue of Europe or is it just another tactical ploy and
:57:28. > :57:31.what you really mean is, when the polls go our way we will have an
:57:32. > :57:34.independence referendum? I want Scotland to be independent. I've
:57:35. > :57:37.argued this case for my entire adult life and I believe independence is
:57:38. > :57:40.the best future for Scotland but I'm also a Democrat and I believe that
:57:41. > :57:43.the decisions about the future of our country should be driven by
:57:44. > :57:48.majority opinion in our country. I also hope that the UK doesn't vote
:57:49. > :57:50.to come out of the EU but I think it would be such a democratic outrage
:57:51. > :57:53.of Scotland were to be taken out of the EU against our will that I think
:57:54. > :57:57.there would be an overwhelming demand in those circumstances to
:57:58. > :58:02.have another referendum. You say you are a Democrat. The democratic norm
:58:03. > :58:06.would be to do what you did in 2011 - you have a manifesto which says
:58:07. > :58:10."Vote SNP and if you vote for us and we form a government we will hold a
:58:11. > :58:14.referendum". What is different between now and 2011 is that we had
:58:15. > :58:19.a referendum and much to my regret, we narrowly failed to get a "yes"
:58:20. > :58:22.vote. It is reasonable to say that I respect that outcome and I will be
:58:23. > :58:25.doing my best to change the outcome of -- change the opinion of people
:58:26. > :58:29.in Scotland and persuade the people we didn't persuade in 2014 to back
:58:30. > :58:31.independence as the best future for Scotland. So at the next election
:58:32. > :58:35.you'll have a manifesto which says Scotland. So at the next election
:58:36. > :58:39."Vote SNP and we will have another referendum". I am standing on a
:58:40. > :58:42.manifesto that is before you there and it says that the onus is on me,
:58:43. > :58:47.the SNP, those who support independence to persuade more people
:58:48. > :58:50.than we managed in 2014 and if we are successful in that, we will earn
:58:51. > :58:54.the right to ask the question again. If we are not successful we went on
:58:55. > :59:03.that right. It is simple and rooted in democracy.
:59:04. > :59:10.You can't call a referendum just because the polls are going your
:59:11. > :59:13.way. David Cameron cant call a general election just because the
:59:14. > :59:17.polls are going his way. You are saying that you can call a
:59:18. > :59:27.referendum just because the opinion polls are saying that. The reason
:59:28. > :59:30.why we have long argued the referendum richer independence is
:59:31. > :59:33.that we recognise and have long recognised that in a general
:59:34. > :59:37.election, you are Scottish, people vote for a variety of different
:59:38. > :59:40.reasons. The question of the constitutional future of the country
:59:41. > :59:45.can only be determined through a referendum. But I am saying is that
:59:46. > :59:49.given we have had a in 2014, clearly I want to have a second one, but in
:59:50. > :59:52.order to end the rate for that, I have got to persuade more people
:59:53. > :59:56.that independence is the best future for our country. What this boils
:59:57. > :59:59.down to is that it what you are saying is that if you are in the
:00:00. > :00:04.administered after me, you will have another referendum, and if you are
:00:05. > :00:08.not, you will not. I respect the opinion of the people in Scotland. I
:00:09. > :00:12.do not understand what any Democrats finds objectionable about that. What
:00:13. > :00:15.I find objectionable is the politicians of this election who are
:00:16. > :00:19.saying that regardless of the opinions of the Scottish people,
:00:20. > :00:23.they would block the right of the Scottish people to choose their own
:00:24. > :00:28.future. Right, that there is no legs as deflation to do this. --
:00:29. > :00:34.legislation. I can't imagine any legislation that would say that
:00:35. > :00:39.Nicola Sturgeon can hold a referendum whenever she feels like
:00:40. > :00:48.it. We have to bring forward a legislation for a second referendum
:00:49. > :00:54.just as we did previously. We set the precedent in 2014 of how a
:00:55. > :00:58.consensual and democratic referendum can be conducted. One of your
:00:59. > :01:03.problems is that way back in 2007 you cut class sizes for primary
:01:04. > :01:09.school children who were in primary is 1-3. You have not done that. Is
:01:10. > :01:13.the promise they are in your current manifesto? There are plenty of
:01:14. > :01:20.pledges and commitments. We have reduced class sizes. No, the
:01:21. > :01:23.proportion of children in those under 18 class sizes is actually
:01:24. > :01:27.lower now than it was when you came to power. I am fighting an election
:01:28. > :01:31.on the pledges in the manifesto that is before you on the table there and
:01:32. > :01:35.central to the manifesto that I have put forward is a commitment to
:01:36. > :01:38.tackling the attainment gap in Scottish education, to making
:01:39. > :01:44.substantial progress in that over the next Parliament, to eliminating
:01:45. > :01:47.that over a decade. ?750 million of additional investment, specifically
:01:48. > :01:50.to tackle the attainment gap, much of that going direct to
:01:51. > :01:54.headteachers. That is the commitment I have made. I have asked to be
:01:55. > :01:59.judged on that commitment. What I was really getting at was your
:02:00. > :02:04.manifesto contains a rather mangled form of words about an independence
:02:05. > :02:09.referendum, which you lost less than two years ago. But on a commitment
:02:10. > :02:12.that you made a great fuss about in 2007, which you have never kept, and
:02:13. > :02:15.you are actually doing worse now than the previous Labour
:02:16. > :02:20.administration, there is not a word about it. The whole of Scotland had
:02:21. > :02:27.the opportunity to cast their verdict on our performance in the
:02:28. > :02:30.last election. That retirement is an SNP Government with a majority. I
:02:31. > :02:33.have put education as the centrepiece of the manifesto.
:02:34. > :02:37.Reducing class sizes, maintaining the number of teachers is part of
:02:38. > :02:40.what we will do. Why are you doing worse than the previous Labour
:02:41. > :02:46.administration? I do not accept that is the case on a whole range of
:02:47. > :02:50.issues. We are showing... On this specific issue. I am sure the
:02:51. > :02:55.attainment gap is narrowing, but I want to do better and faster, so
:02:56. > :02:59.that is why I put education at the Art of this manifesto. On the NHS
:03:00. > :03:03.commune said we will have new elective care centres and a new
:03:04. > :03:08.clinical care strategy. We had a new clinical care strategy before the
:03:09. > :03:11.dissolution of Parliament. There are no proposals to close hospitals as
:03:12. > :03:15.part of our manifesto. What we are saying in that manifesto is that to
:03:16. > :03:19.deal with the impact of an ageing population, then we need to expand
:03:20. > :03:22.the capacity to deal with treating operations like knee replacement,
:03:23. > :03:30.hip replacements, cataract operations. Will A services have
:03:31. > :03:35.to close? There are no proposals to close A services. Will any
:03:36. > :03:39.services which are provided locally have to close? Health boards will
:03:40. > :03:44.judge local areas on an ongoing basis but there are no proposals to
:03:45. > :03:47.close places in our manifesto. You have said you will protect access to
:03:48. > :03:50.close places in our manifesto. You care wherever possible. The words
:03:51. > :03:53.whenever possible imply that there may be those cases. We are trying to
:03:54. > :03:56.shift more care out of hospitals completely, so we need to make sure
:03:57. > :03:59.our hospitals are fit for the fact that we have an ageing population.
:04:00. > :04:04.They might be some people who love to travel or some small hospitals
:04:05. > :04:07.that have to close down. There are procedures that gave you years
:04:08. > :04:10.ago... I remember when my Gran had a cataract operation, she was in
:04:11. > :04:13.hospital for seven days. Nowadays, you go into hospital to have a
:04:14. > :04:17.cataract operation and you go in and out on the same morning often saw
:04:18. > :04:20.the nature of health care is changing. We have got to make
:04:21. > :04:25.sure... What I am getting at is that I remember in 2007 one of the
:04:26. > :04:28.reasons you won the election was by campaigning against a Labour plan
:04:29. > :04:32.for specialist centres which looks campaigning against a Labour plan
:04:33. > :04:36.remarkably similar to what you're proposing now? I campaign in 2007
:04:37. > :04:40.amongst other things on a to overturn the closure of A in
:04:41. > :04:44.amongst other things on a to Monklands and in air. One of the
:04:45. > :04:47.first things I did as Health Secretary was to overturn the
:04:48. > :04:50.closure of these A units. They are still open today, treating hundreds
:04:51. > :04:55.of thousands of patients and they will remain open as will other A
:04:56. > :05:04.services. Will we have 70 access to GPs? -- seven day. What David
:05:05. > :05:08.Cameron is talking about is we have junior doctors out on strike. What
:05:09. > :05:12.we need to make sure is that when ever you access health care in this
:05:13. > :05:16.country, you get access to good quality care, whether it is during
:05:17. > :05:19.the week or at weekends, and we are working to do that. One of the other
:05:20. > :05:24.things I didn't Health Secretary was extend the opening hours of GP
:05:25. > :05:28.practices so that more GP practices now are open early in the morning or
:05:29. > :05:33.on Saturday mornings and you will see in our manifesto commitment to
:05:34. > :05:40.extend that. You have all these wonderful pledges in your manifesto
:05:41. > :05:42.about more money for health care and hospitals and education, but you are
:05:43. > :05:46.against putting up taxes. What are you going to cut to pay for all
:05:47. > :05:51.this? The taxable salt in our manifesto, when you take income tax
:05:52. > :05:55.and local tax together. Over the next Parliament will raise at a
:05:56. > :06:03.minimum and additional ?2 billion in revenue. That is the revenue that we
:06:04. > :06:06.pay for health care commitments on education at health in our
:06:07. > :06:08.manifesto. ?2 billion of additional revenue raised from our reforms to
:06:09. > :06:14.local taxation and from the fact that we are not passing on a tax cut
:06:15. > :06:17.to higher rate income payers. So these are old proposals that will
:06:18. > :06:23.enable us to protect public services. We are going to raise at
:06:24. > :06:26.least ?2 billion to invest in our public services. But you will not
:06:27. > :06:31.cut anything? We will put forward our budgets each and every year, but
:06:32. > :06:34.we will raise additional revenue so that we do mitigate Tory cuts, but I
:06:35. > :06:42.want to continue also to find Tory cuts at their source in Westminster.
:06:43. > :06:45.But there will not be any cuts here? This is a manifesto for additional
:06:46. > :06:48.spending on health and education, funded by the tax proposals we are
:06:49. > :06:51.putting forward. The difference between the SNP and Labour in the
:06:52. > :06:55.collection of taxes that we are not going to raise tax on low income
:06:56. > :07:02.earners because we do not think it is fair that they shoulder the
:07:03. > :07:10.budget -- burden of Tory austerity. I'm curious. There is nothing
:07:11. > :07:15.illegitimate about it. Your picture is on the front. I don't think it is
:07:16. > :07:18.the first time a picture of the party leader has appeared on the
:07:19. > :07:21.front of a manifesto. You have had all these rallies and people treat
:07:22. > :07:33.you with a certain amount of adulation. Not you, I think it is
:07:34. > :07:36.fair to say. But you don't strike me as the sort of person who would
:07:37. > :07:42.necessarily be very comfortable with personal adulation. That is not how
:07:43. > :07:46.I choose to describe it because it is not how it feels to me. I'm
:07:47. > :07:50.I choose to describe it because it to make a point that is very
:07:51. > :07:54.personal to me and very important to me. I have been acutely aware each
:07:55. > :07:58.and every day of the last year and they have that I became First
:07:59. > :08:03.Minister during a parliamentary term. I am very proud and privileged
:08:04. > :08:06.to have become First Minister, but I want to get a personal mandate in
:08:07. > :08:11.this election, so it is the first time that I am asking people to vote
:08:12. > :08:14.for me as First Minister and that is something I take very seriously. I
:08:15. > :08:17.don't know that I will ever be comfortable at seeing pictures of
:08:18. > :08:21.myself everywhere. I'm not any politician is, but I understand it
:08:22. > :08:23.is a necessary process. We will have to leave it there. Nicola Sturgeon,
:08:24. > :08:24.thank you very much. I'll be back at the usual time
:08:25. > :08:29.of eleven o'clock next week. Shelley Jofre hosts the final
:08:30. > :08:31.Scotland 2016 debate on Housing on Tuesday night at half past ten
:08:32. > :08:34.on BBC 2 Scotland.