:00:37. > :00:42.A thumping big win for Labour over the Conservatives in London -
:00:43. > :00:44.but what do Thursday's less impressive results across
:00:45. > :00:48.the country mean for Jeremy Corbyn's chances of getting to Number 10?
:00:49. > :00:50.We'll hear from both sides of the debate
:00:51. > :00:55.Here's one Tory riding high at least.
:00:56. > :00:58.Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has managed to take
:00:59. > :01:00.the party once thought of as too toxic for Scotland
:01:01. > :01:08.And with the elections now over, it's back to the biggest political
:01:09. > :01:11.The Cabinet's heavyweights have been trading blows
:01:12. > :01:16.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...
:01:17. > :01:20.third term in office, but falls short of an
:01:21. > :01:34.We'll be speaking to Nicola Sturgeon live.
:01:35. > :01:39.giving media interviews this morning, I'm joined in the studio
:01:40. > :01:41.by the aristocracy, the upper crust, the royalty
:01:42. > :01:48.Tom Newton-Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.
:01:49. > :01:50.We're going to have a whip round after the show
:01:51. > :01:53.and get Steve a double-barrelled surname too.
:01:54. > :02:07.demonstration of modern democracy in the United Kingdom.
:02:08. > :02:10.There was good and bad for almost every political party
:02:11. > :02:12.across the nations and regions, and that's meant a feast
:02:13. > :02:14.of spinning, analysis, claim and counter-claim.
:02:15. > :02:16.Well today with almost all of the results now in -
:02:17. > :02:18.although we're still waiting for a few police and crime
:02:19. > :02:21.commissioners and one English council - we're going to try
:02:22. > :02:25.First here's Adam with his behind-the-scenes look at how
:02:26. > :02:30.It's election night, and my chance to annoy the big
:02:31. > :02:38.And this is the most depressing bit.
:02:39. > :02:43.Are you expecting to get a bit of a headache?
:02:44. > :02:49.It's a two day extravaganza of results.
:02:50. > :02:51.Will Jeremy Corbyn be staying up all night tonight?
:02:52. > :02:55.Jeremy doesn't go to bed on nights like this!
:02:56. > :02:58.We're old mates, we've been together 30 years on these different things
:02:59. > :03:02.So you're both proper election night geeks?
:03:03. > :03:07.The Labour telly addicts watched their party lose one council
:03:08. > :03:11.and a handful of councillors in England, not a lot,
:03:12. > :03:14.but not amazing either, as even Jeremy Corbyn admitted.
:03:15. > :03:18.We were getting predictions that Labour was going to lose councils,
:03:19. > :03:24.Although he celebrated winning two by-elections in pretty
:03:25. > :03:33.This is the first time I've ever had a desk at one of these things.
:03:34. > :03:39.The SNP got close to a majority in the Scottish Parliament,
:03:40. > :03:51.It is a vote of confidence in the record in government
:03:52. > :03:57.of the SNP, and it is a vote of trust in the SNP to lead
:03:58. > :04:04.Davidson, Ruth - Scottish and Conservative and Unionist...
:04:05. > :04:07.The biggest smile belongs to Ruth Davidson, leader
:04:08. > :04:11.of the Scottish Tories, who displaced Labour to become
:04:12. > :04:16.Have you been looking in the results in Scotland than just going whoa?
:04:17. > :04:25.Even if you look at some of the seats...
:04:26. > :04:28.We've just seen a few come through, the SNP have hold of one, but,
:04:29. > :04:31.actually, with huge swings from the SNP to the Conservatives.
:04:32. > :04:34.In Wales Ukip won their first seats on the Assembly,
:04:35. > :04:38.meaning a comeback for the former Tory MP Neil Hamilton,
:04:39. > :04:41.who managed to offend one Welshman within seconds.
:04:42. > :04:42.I'm thoroughly Welsh through and through,
:04:43. > :04:46.Here were are in virtually your hometown of Llanelli.
:04:47. > :04:48.Just one correction, Neil, of course it's not
:04:49. > :04:51.virtually my hometown - it is my hometown.
:04:52. > :04:54.So let's be very accurate about that, shall we?
:04:55. > :05:00.By lunchtime on Friday, us media types had realised that
:05:01. > :05:03.nothing especially dramatic had happened, so we all hotfooted
:05:04. > :05:06.it to City Hall to see Labour's Sadiq Khan elected
:05:07. > :05:12.Though most of the chat among the hacks in the press room
:05:13. > :05:20.was about the campaign run by his Tory rival, Zac Goldsmith,
:05:21. > :05:22.which was described as mean and divisive.
:05:23. > :05:27.I personally never went near central office in either
:05:28. > :05:30.of my campaigns, and I don't think Boris Johnson did either.
:05:31. > :05:31.Is that because they're not very good?
:05:32. > :05:33.That's because you are the candidates, it is
:05:34. > :05:37.your campaign and you should run it your way.
:05:38. > :05:42.And Labour nabbed another mayor, in Bristol, taking over
:05:43. > :05:47.The results from other campaigns around the UK are still
:05:48. > :05:52.It's not been super exciting, but we have got a nice view
:05:53. > :06:03.So with almost all the counting and number crunching across England,
:06:04. > :06:05.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now finished, let's take a look
:06:06. > :06:11.The SNP won the Scottish election, and will be the largest party
:06:12. > :06:18.But Nicola Sturgeon's party fell two short of a majority, and will govern
:06:19. > :06:27.Ruth Davidson's Conservatives overtook Labour to become the second
:06:28. > :06:30.Scottish Labour were pushed into 3rd place -
:06:31. > :06:34.with 24 seats, down 13 from the last Holyrood election.
:06:35. > :06:36.Labour remains the dominant party in Wales, winning 29
:06:37. > :06:43.And Leanne Wood's Plaid Cymru pipped the Conservatives 12 to 11 to become
:06:44. > :06:50.taking 7 seats in Wales - the first time they've sat
:06:51. > :06:54.In Northern Ireland, the DUP will once again
:06:55. > :07:00.They won 38 seats, with the next biggest party Sinn Fein on 28.
:07:01. > :07:03.Results in the English councils were seen as a major test
:07:04. > :07:09.And the party had a mixed night, winning the most councils -
:07:10. > :07:13.but losing 23 councillors since the last elections in 2012.
:07:14. > :07:15.There were two Westminster by-elections - with Labour
:07:16. > :07:19.holding the seats of Sheffield Brightside and Ogmore.
:07:20. > :07:22.And the Labour party won in London too -
:07:23. > :07:24.where Sadiq Khan beat Zac Goldsmith to the mayoralty,
:07:25. > :07:33.winning 57% of the vote on first preferences, to Goldsmith's 43%.
:07:34. > :07:35.The Green Party came third in the London elections -
:07:36. > :07:40.with their highest vote tally yet in the capital.
:07:41. > :07:44.Finally, voters in 40 police forces in England and Wales
:07:45. > :07:47.elected their new Police and Crime Commissioner.
:07:48. > :07:51.With the Tories and Labour triumphing over independents.
:07:52. > :07:55.With 36 of the 40 election results having declared, the Tories have won
:07:56. > :08:13.What does this mean, in the round, for Labour? It is the worst possible
:08:14. > :08:17.result for Labour, because it isn't good enough, and it isn't bad
:08:18. > :08:22.enough, which is the worst-case scenario for anyone who wants Labour
:08:23. > :08:28.to win in 2020. This is concerning the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and John
:08:29. > :08:32.McDonnell, but it is the point of being a political party, winning
:08:33. > :08:37.elections. Is it the worst of both worlds because they didn't do badly
:08:38. > :08:41.enough? To justify ousting Corbyn, but they didn't do well enough to
:08:42. > :08:46.suggest that Corbyn's people were right, and there was a groundswell
:08:47. > :08:51.of opinion moving to the far left. We saw the message coming out from
:08:52. > :08:57.the deputy leader on Friday morning, stand-down everyone, not yet. Do you
:08:58. > :09:02.agree? No. Even if these results had been much worse, as many expected it
:09:03. > :09:06.would be in the media and beyond, it still wouldn't have been the mood
:09:07. > :09:11.now. It is all being played out in public. Tom Watson, the deputy
:09:12. > :09:16.leader, gave an interview on Friday where he called ambiguously for
:09:17. > :09:21.patients. What he meant was, it is far too early to remove a leader who
:09:22. > :09:26.got an overwhelming mandate nine months ago in September. And he's
:09:27. > :09:31.right about that. You can't do it if the party membership overwhelmingly
:09:32. > :09:36.backs the leader. But what he meant by patients was, you don't have to
:09:37. > :09:39.translate it, there is a time-limit to this. Jeremy Corbyn needs more
:09:40. > :09:45.time to show he can put together a winning formula. If he fails in
:09:46. > :09:50.that, at some point, there will be he and others who will trigger some
:09:51. > :09:56.kind of challenge. So he's on a leasehold? Yes. He's not doing well
:09:57. > :10:00.enough to suggest he will win the next election. I don't agree with
:10:01. > :10:04.Julia that people are indifferent about winning elections. But party
:10:05. > :10:09.members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn are absolutely different to winning
:10:10. > :10:14.elections. I don't know. I assume that people who go out knocking on
:10:15. > :10:19.doors want to win. Sadiq Khan. That was the big result for Labour, and
:10:20. > :10:27.he won very comfortably. He won very strongly in the GLA as well. The
:10:28. > :10:30.Tories did very badly. We have this strange situation where, despite
:10:31. > :10:35.Sadiq Khan being the poster boy for the night, he still hasn't met
:10:36. > :10:40.Jeremy Corbyn. Is Mr Khan going to be an alternative Labour Party based
:10:41. > :10:45.around London City Hall? He tells us he's going to meet Jeremy Corbyn
:10:46. > :10:50.tomorrow. Corbyn said they were going to meet today. It is a real
:10:51. > :10:56.problem for Jeremy now because he is up against someone else with their
:10:57. > :10:59.own mandate, an enormous one. 1.3 million Londoners, together with
:11:00. > :11:05.their second preferences. A huge number. I think Sadiq Khan will use
:11:06. > :11:09.that to be the mouthpiece of the moderates, the soft left. I would
:11:10. > :11:13.suggest that if we were not looking at this through the prism of what it
:11:14. > :11:19.means for Mr Corbyn, we may be pointing out that the Tories didn't
:11:20. > :11:22.have a great night. They lost seats in England and Wales, they lost
:11:23. > :11:28.London and their share of the vote in London is now under 30%. They
:11:29. > :11:33.only got eight seats on the Greater London assembly. They are in their
:11:34. > :11:37.worst position since 2004, which was the second time we had a London
:11:38. > :11:42.election. It isn't brilliant for them. They would save the first year
:11:43. > :11:48.in government, do get this kind of reaction. Or worse ones. At what is
:11:49. > :11:53.overlooked in all this is that the last Labour government's post-97
:11:54. > :11:56.devolution proposals has transformed UK politics. In Scotland, the
:11:57. > :12:01.Conservatives are thrilled because they came second, but that wasn't
:12:02. > :12:06.about David Cameron, it was about Ruth Davidson, their leader there.
:12:07. > :12:12.In London, when people voted for Sadiq Khan, they were not thinking
:12:13. > :12:17.about Jeremy Corbyn. They were voting for him. Unintentionally,
:12:18. > :12:21.those devolution proposals have transformed UK politics, fracturing
:12:22. > :12:28.the UK parties, and will no longer allow any single party to make those
:12:29. > :12:30.sort of thousand seat gains that Blair did. But the Tories shouldn't
:12:31. > :12:39.be too complacent about this. It wasn't a great result. It wasn't,
:12:40. > :12:44.but who would expect it? The party is an absolute disarray, the deepest
:12:45. > :12:47.divisions. We have had a senior Cabinet Minister resign, criticising
:12:48. > :12:51.the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. If they did well this
:12:52. > :12:57.time, I would be surprised. So the Tories should have done worse? They
:12:58. > :13:01.should. I would disagree with your hypothesis to begin with, because
:13:02. > :13:05.they are, in some parts of this country, making remarkable progress,
:13:06. > :13:13.like Scotland. They could have lost seats. We know the Ruth Davidson
:13:14. > :13:17.story. If David Cameron can show his own party he's still a winner, six
:13:18. > :13:22.years into government, I would suggest he is pretty safe
:13:23. > :13:25.post-referendum. Well, that is our panel's verdict.
:13:26. > :13:27.So the high point for the Conservatives this week
:13:28. > :13:29.was undoubtedly in Scotland, where a party once known
:13:30. > :13:31.as the toxic Tories has become Ruth Davidson's Conservatives,
:13:32. > :13:33.replacing Labour as Scotland's second party and becoming
:13:34. > :13:35.the official opposition to the SNP at Holyrood.
:13:36. > :13:37.Ruth Davidson successfully positioned herself as the only
:13:38. > :13:39.person capable of standing up to Nicola Sturgeon over independence
:13:40. > :13:43.This morning Nicola Sturgeon says "bring it on2.
:13:44. > :13:46.Well we can speak now to Ruth Davidson, she joins us
:13:47. > :13:58.Good morning. Are the Scottish Conservatives now quite separate
:13:59. > :14:06.from the Tories? There was no appearance in your campaign from
:14:07. > :14:11.ministers in Westminster. But our campaign was launched in March?
:14:12. > :14:17.Other than that, did anybody come up to campaign for you? This was not
:14:18. > :14:21.about London. It is a sophisticated electorate in Scotland. People knew
:14:22. > :14:26.what they were voting for. This wasn't about who would be Prime
:14:27. > :14:30.Minister. This was about who would be the First Minister of Scotland,
:14:31. > :14:33.and who would be the Leader of the Opposition in Scotland. I made a
:14:34. > :14:39.very clear campaign of what I would do if I were to be the Leader of the
:14:40. > :14:44.Opposition, how I would hold the SNP to account, how I would say no to a
:14:45. > :14:48.second independence referendum, and how I would concentrate on the
:14:49. > :14:53.things that matter to ordinary Scots. Let's not go over the
:14:54. > :14:58.campaign again! I could probably say those lines in my sleep! In what
:14:59. > :14:59.ways to you now regard yourself as distinctive and different from the
:15:00. > :15:09.English Tories? Since I took over as leader I was
:15:10. > :15:12.the first leader in Scotland to be the leader of the entire party in
:15:13. > :15:21.Scotland. In terms of fundraising, Pelissie... What made you different?
:15:22. > :15:26.You had seen me takes on different policy decisions from my colleagues
:15:27. > :15:32.down south, if you compare the manifestos you will see differences,
:15:33. > :15:35.for one example, the right to buy for housing association houses. We
:15:36. > :15:38.don't think that is appropriate for the housing market in Scotland. How
:15:39. > :15:45.colleagues did down south. There is a distinct difference that. I wonder
:15:46. > :15:54.if it was a Scottish Conservative idea or not. The title was Ruth
:15:55. > :15:57.Davidson, a strong opposition. It did say Scottish Conservatives twice
:15:58. > :16:03.on the front cover. And multiply many times inside. In the Times, the
:16:04. > :16:08.roof, the whole truth and nothing but the roof. You created a new Tory
:16:09. > :16:19.brand. -- Ruth the. We don't fight just as conservatives
:16:20. > :16:22.in Scotland but conservatives in the Unionist party. The echoes of the
:16:23. > :16:25.Unionist party played quite loud in this election was that they were
:16:26. > :16:29.looking for people who would unequivocally stand up for the
:16:30. > :16:33.decision we made just 20 months ago. I think that was an area we fought
:16:34. > :16:37.strongly on now we have had some success. While I recognise a win for
:16:38. > :16:42.the Scottish National party, they are now in a third term of
:16:43. > :16:45.government, and I congratulated the First Minister, what was really
:16:46. > :16:49.significant about the result is we managed to stop them having a
:16:50. > :16:56.majority. They slipped back. This idea that they didn't put a clear
:16:57. > :16:59.mandate for a referendum in their manifesto, unlike in 2011, and now
:17:00. > :17:04.they don't even have a majority, that takes the second referendum off
:17:05. > :17:08.the table for five years and give Scotland's stability. You say a
:17:09. > :17:12.second referendum is off the cards and I understand the reasons why. I
:17:13. > :17:16.suggest that means unionists in the rest of the UK you would like to
:17:17. > :17:21.back Brexit can now do so without the fear of the second independence
:17:22. > :17:24.referendum? I argued all through this campaign irrespective of what
:17:25. > :17:31.happens with a referendum on Europe, that is not trigger point for a
:17:32. > :17:34.second referendum. I haven't heard anyone in the SNP argued
:17:35. > :17:42.successfully if there are was a Brexit... It is important we stay
:17:43. > :17:46.part of the union in which we export so many goods and services. I have
:17:47. > :17:52.yet to have anyone in the SNP explain it. But I look forward in
:17:53. > :18:00.the coming weeks to hear them make the argument for that. Last time the
:18:01. > :18:03.SNP were a majority government the Scottish Tories gave them crucial
:18:04. > :18:09.support on budget votes. Can you see us of doing that again? I think
:18:10. > :18:17.times move on. The SNP is no longer led by Alex Salmond... We know that.
:18:18. > :18:22.I think we will be robust. I will seek to put forward alternatives. I
:18:23. > :18:25.want to be as positive as I can be, not just crudely and blocking and
:18:26. > :18:29.questioning, although all of that is important. The debate we haven't had
:18:30. > :18:32.in Scotland for the last five years, but I want to put forward
:18:33. > :18:36.alternatives. One area I think we can make common cause is reforming
:18:37. > :18:40.education, it is a disgrace our school performances have gone back
:18:41. > :18:52.in Scotland in recent years. We used to have the best education system
:18:53. > :18:55.anywhere in the world. That is no longer the case. There is a lot I
:18:56. > :18:58.can do to try and bring the SNP onto our ground. I managed in the last
:18:59. > :19:00.parliament coming from third, in terms of school testing and money
:19:01. > :19:03.not just being handed to local authorities, I think we got a wink,
:19:04. > :19:06.teach first. There are real areas I think we can help the debate in
:19:07. > :19:10.Scotland and put forward is positive or turn at its. You shouldn't
:19:11. > :19:14.overplay your part. The SNP is still the dominant party in Holyrood, you
:19:15. > :19:18.are second, but all the other opposition parties are to the left
:19:19. > :19:22.of you. You're still a minority voice and won't be able to count on
:19:23. > :19:27.the opposition, other opposition parties ganging up on your side? We
:19:28. > :19:35.are a hugely important voice precisely because of the other side
:19:36. > :19:37.in voices you have identified. The First Minister, like the Prime
:19:38. > :19:40.Minister has competing and conflicting areas of interest: how
:19:41. > :19:43.one way or another. You are right to say Nicola Sturgeon has that she
:19:44. > :19:48.wants to make Scotland the highest in the UK. The other parties are
:19:49. > :19:53.trying to drag a further left, taking more money out of the pocket
:19:54. > :19:56.of ordinary working Scots. Our voice is crucial to pull her back to the
:19:57. > :20:00.centre, saying that is not the way to look after the Beeb all working
:20:01. > :20:05.hard and deserve a break in Scotland but also not the way to look after a
:20:06. > :20:11.Scottish economy. Last month's figures, 20,000 rise in unemployment
:20:12. > :20:15.in the UK, most of which came from Scotland. Our economic growth is a
:20:16. > :20:18.fraction of the rest of the UK. We need to become a more competitive
:20:19. > :20:22.country. That is an odd and I can make very strongly. Let me ask you
:20:23. > :20:27.this, when you look at the huge powers that have been devolved
:20:28. > :20:30.Scotland, and more on their way over schools, education, hospitals,
:20:31. > :20:37.health, transport and now a chunk of tax as well, is it ever conceivable
:20:38. > :20:41.that a Scottish MP from a Scottish constituency could ever again be
:20:42. > :20:45.Prime Minister of the United given that they would have no
:20:46. > :20:51.responsibility for so many things that affect the rest of the UK? Of
:20:52. > :20:55.course. Typically in the last Labour government you had a health minister
:20:56. > :21:02.who came from Lanarkshire in John Reid you had a chance of that came
:21:03. > :21:07.from Edinburgh. Is that conceivable again, that you could have a Home
:21:08. > :21:12.Secretary from a Scottish constituency, where everything on
:21:13. > :21:14.the home front is essentially devolved to Scotland? It was
:21:15. > :21:19.devolved at the time it was being taken over by John Reid. I know he
:21:20. > :21:25.played Parliamentary bingo and got a lot of big jobs. If you have English
:21:26. > :21:31.votes for English laws, a Scottish Prime Minister wouldn't even get to
:21:32. > :21:36.vote on his own policies. Andrew, you and I have talked about this
:21:37. > :21:39.many times. You saw our Strathclyde commission report, the basis that
:21:40. > :21:44.the Smith commission, the devolution of all these powers on one of the
:21:45. > :21:48.key aspects of that, looking at great detail with constitutional
:21:49. > :21:52.expert, was to ensure it wouldn't divest Scotland away from the rest
:21:53. > :21:57.of the UK. I don't think it does. In terms of all of the big jobs, I
:21:58. > :22:02.think you will see another Scottish Prime Minister, or from Wales or
:22:03. > :22:04.Northern Ireland. Talent will out. Do you think you've Zac Goldsmith
:22:05. > :22:13.bought the kind of campaign you fought in Scotland the Conservatives
:22:14. > :22:16.might have held on to the mayor? I don't qualify to talk about that,
:22:17. > :22:21.I've only been to London once this year. I knew I had a job to deliver
:22:22. > :22:25.here in Scotland. Even though I am a political geek I didn't watch the
:22:26. > :22:29.London mayoral race that closely I had a job to do the. Thank you.
:22:30. > :22:32.So Labour ended the week with a big result to feel cheerful about thanks
:22:33. > :22:34.to Sadiq Khan's thumping win over Zac Goldsmith to become
:22:35. > :22:44.The numeric macro has used his big job in office to reach out beyond
:22:45. > :22:45.the activists, which sounds like criticism of Jeremy Corbyn. He was
:22:46. > :22:51.talking to Andrew Marr earlier. We in Labour, our mission is to
:22:52. > :22:53.improve people's lives, and change We only do that
:22:54. > :22:56.by winning elections, by having a mandate
:22:57. > :22:58.to improve people's lives. What are the challenges
:22:59. > :23:00.facing Londoners? How do you tackle
:23:01. > :23:01.the housing crisis? How do you ensure we have a modern
:23:02. > :23:04.and affordable transport system? How do young people get
:23:05. > :23:06.the skills of tomorrow? We only do that by speaking to those
:23:07. > :23:12.people who previously By speaking to Tory voters,
:23:13. > :23:16.to those outside of our tent. And my point is, we've got to
:23:17. > :23:18.stop talking about ourselves. Well, to discuss this we're joined
:23:19. > :23:22.from Leeds by Caroline Flint, she was of course a former minister
:23:23. > :23:33.and was in Ed Miliband's Welcome back to the programme
:23:34. > :23:36.Caroline Flint. Let me put Sadiq Khan's quote to you. So-called
:23:37. > :23:40.natural Labour voters alone will never be enough to win a general
:23:41. > :23:45.election. Have you seen any progress from Thursday's results that Jeremy
:23:46. > :23:50.Corbyn's Labour Party is making progress in appealing to beyond the
:23:51. > :23:54.faithful? We need to make a lot more progress, Andrew. Although we had a
:23:55. > :23:58.fantastic result in London with Sadiq Khan, and I have to say the
:23:59. > :24:03.Tory campaign was both shameful and disgusting. We won in Bristol with
:24:04. > :24:06.Marvin and held onto councils like Crawley, Southampton and Redditch
:24:07. > :24:11.and Hastings, where I have been many times. It is not enough. We have to
:24:12. > :24:15.show that we are a party that is competitively challenging the
:24:16. > :24:19.government. That is why, as Sadiq said in his interview in the
:24:20. > :24:23.Observer today, we have to reach out beyond the big cities and reach out
:24:24. > :24:27.to those people who voted Conservative to vote Labour. Then we
:24:28. > :24:31.can have big politics for a big election and when it. What you say
:24:32. > :24:36.to John McDonnell, been a bit too in your party, saying I think we are on
:24:37. > :24:41.a steady course for victory in 2020. We are laying the foundations for
:24:42. > :24:45.that long haul victory in 2020. Is he right or wrong? I believe in
:24:46. > :24:49.honest straight talking politics. John McDonnell said in the run-up to
:24:50. > :24:54.these elections, we are looking to hang on. Looking to hang on isn't
:24:55. > :24:59.enough. This is the worst result for an opposition party after a general
:25:00. > :25:04.election in 30th. The year after Michael foot was elected we gained
:25:05. > :25:10.1000 council seats. Tony Blair 1800, Ed Miliband over 800. We actually
:25:11. > :25:14.had a loss of 28. In fact, the Tories, when you look at directly
:25:15. > :25:20.contested elections, gained three. It doesn't take away from the hard
:25:21. > :25:21.work on the ground by Labour councillors, Parliamentary
:25:22. > :25:26.candidates and members in these elections, but we need to be making
:25:27. > :25:31.far more inroads to be within an opportunity to win in 2020. That is
:25:32. > :25:35.the challenge for Jeremy. He deserves the right to lead, won the
:25:36. > :25:39.election, but he has to show, what have the loan from these elections?
:25:40. > :25:43.Will he talked people like Sadiq Khan to think about how we broaden
:25:44. > :25:48.our appeal so we can be in a very strong position, 2020. How long has
:25:49. > :25:52.it got to learn these lessons? Our members were only elected in
:25:53. > :25:57.September last year. I said he won on a huge mandate. He has not only
:25:58. > :26:00.won the right to be leader, he is the leader and our members believe
:26:01. > :26:04.Labour leaders should have the time to prove themselves. But, you know
:26:05. > :26:08.we know when the election is going to be, that is something relatively
:26:09. > :26:13.new to our politics in Britain. We also know this election we have to
:26:14. > :26:15.be honest about what the positive aspects and also about what didn't
:26:16. > :26:20.work and where we need to gain ground. How long have you got?
:26:21. > :26:24.People will be looking to hear from Jeremy what he's run and how he will
:26:25. > :26:27.take us forward and they will be looking... We have elections next
:26:28. > :26:31.year and the year after, but we have to ask ourselves is a party. I think
:26:32. > :26:35.this is a really big task for Jeremy Tilse. We are having a debate about
:26:36. > :26:40.what is the Labour Party for? We have to decide, are we a party of
:26:41. > :26:43.protest or a mainstream, democratic socialist party which is
:26:44. > :26:47.competitively challenging for government? If we are the latter,
:26:48. > :26:52.which we should be, we need to have the politics and the leadership to
:26:53. > :26:56.actually talk about that much, much more and take us board. That is
:26:57. > :27:01.really important for all of us. We have to ask ourselves is well, we
:27:02. > :27:07.have ten years of opposition here. We don't need another five on top of
:27:08. > :27:11.that. John McDonnell thinks you begrudge things. He says, for
:27:12. > :27:15.goodness sake get behind the leader, it is time to put up or shut up. I
:27:16. > :27:25.am someone who loves the Labour Party. I joined in 1979, I know what
:27:26. > :27:29.it's like... Put up or shut up? I am putting up. I put up in the House of
:27:30. > :27:33.Commons, where I am working with John McDonnell's team on tax
:27:34. > :27:37.transparency measures. We have a Tory party that should be absolutely
:27:38. > :27:42.on the ropes. A jet measures they had to drop on tax credits, Sunday
:27:43. > :27:46.trading they have had to drop, and I knew turned since the last general
:27:47. > :27:49.election. The education policy in tatters, the Panama papers, it goes
:27:50. > :27:55.election. The education policy in on and on. The truth is we need to
:27:56. > :27:59.be making sure that the public know about that and we have an
:28:00. > :28:03.alternative to that. At the moment, despite all those issues facing the
:28:04. > :28:07.Tory party, we didn't make as much progress as we showed. Let's be
:28:08. > :28:11.honest about these results, let's be honest about we need to reach out
:28:12. > :28:15.beyond our core vote, just as Sadiq Khan said. I hope John McDonnell
:28:16. > :28:20.will back me on that. Lets see if we can continue with this honesty.
:28:21. > :28:26.Given Scotland is now effectively a no go area for Labour, how could you
:28:27. > :28:32.ever hope to win the 2020 election on England alone? You would need a
:28:33. > :28:37.13 point lead, a bigger lead than Tony Blair had. That is just not
:28:38. > :28:41.conceivable. It is a massive challenge, Andrew. In Scotland are
:28:42. > :28:46.very disappointing night for Scotland. I think how Scottish
:28:47. > :28:50.friends all know that the way back for Labour will take some time. I
:28:51. > :28:54.wouldn't blame Jeremy Corbyn for what happened in Scotland either.
:28:55. > :28:59.You are right. My understanding is if we don't make the sort of
:29:00. > :29:04.comeback we need to in Scotland, in the numbers were used to be able to
:29:05. > :29:08.rely on, we need to gain something like 100 seats, 100 seats in England
:29:09. > :29:14.to have a majority. We need to have that sort of talking within the
:29:15. > :29:17.party. Activists realise protests in themselves will not be enough.
:29:18. > :29:18.Labour votes won't be enough and I'm looking to Jeremy Corbyn to provide
:29:19. > :29:29.the leadership that. A final question. What you say to
:29:30. > :29:33.several Tory MPs who have said to me, and I quote, Mr Corbyn's
:29:34. > :29:39.survival is the single most important thing for Tories for 2020?
:29:40. > :29:44.If we are not winning elections, they will say that. In many
:29:45. > :29:49.respects, the Tories were probably relatively relieved. Despite the
:29:50. > :29:53.shameful campaign they ran in London, given everything that's been
:29:54. > :29:58.going on in government in the last eight months, they should be quite
:29:59. > :30:02.relieved in terms of the result. We need to show them that Jeremy can
:30:03. > :30:07.stand up and face those criticisms, and the way he does that is by
:30:08. > :30:10.reaching out, as Sadiq Khan has done, as have many councils across
:30:11. > :30:15.the country in keeping their seats, and do the right thing for Labour.
:30:16. > :30:17.We need to move on, Caroline. Thank you.
:30:18. > :30:20.So that's the view of one former member of the Labour frontbench -
:30:21. > :30:23.we're joined now by the current shadow energy minister Clive Lewis,
:30:24. > :30:25.he's in our Norwich studio - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:30:26. > :30:33.Morning, Andrew. Caroline Flint was saying that George Osborne's latest
:30:34. > :30:36.budget is in ruins, the Tories are tearing themselves apart over
:30:37. > :30:41.Europe, Iain Duncan Smith resigned because of what the government is
:30:42. > :30:47.doing to the working poor. The best Mr Corbyn could say was, we hung on.
:30:48. > :30:54.Is that good enough? Let's have a look at the focus of the media to --
:30:55. > :30:59.the media and the punditry. It was issued in the Labour Party that was
:31:00. > :31:05.the core focus for you guys. You brought that on yourselves. The
:31:06. > :31:08.bottom line is, at the start of your programme, you began that the
:31:09. > :31:12.results of the Labour Party, when actually, we were up 2% in the
:31:13. > :31:17.national share vote and the Tories were down 5%. Yet you in your
:31:18. > :31:21.commentators started on how it was a result for Labour. I'm not saying it
:31:22. > :31:27.was anything to shout about. But let's look at the results. You need
:31:28. > :31:30.13 points to win, so I would suggest that one or two points is neither
:31:31. > :31:35.here nor there was yellow Caroline Flint hit the nail on the head in
:31:36. > :31:40.that we have a massive task in front of us. But infighting is not the way
:31:41. > :31:45.forward. That is not going to help us achieve victory in 2020. We all
:31:46. > :31:48.know it is a massive uphill struggle. We need to think how we
:31:49. > :31:55.can make the best effort to win in 2020, and that is what the next few
:31:56. > :31:59.weeks and months need to be about. I agree with with so much of what
:32:00. > :32:06.Sadiq Khan said in his interview. Why doesn't Jeremy Corbyn meet with
:32:07. > :32:12.him? I think he will. But he won the capital city, by 14 points. It was
:32:13. > :32:18.an incredible victory, the first Muslim leader of a major city in
:32:19. > :32:24.Europe. And Mr Corbyn, we haven't seen him anywhere near him yet. It
:32:25. > :32:28.is a fantastic victory. Sadiq Khan nominated Jeremy. He didn't vote for
:32:29. > :32:34.him, which is a brilliantly principled position. Corbyn and Khan
:32:35. > :32:43.are comrades and good friends. They have a lot to learn from each other.
:32:44. > :32:47.Sadiq Khan won because he was with Jeremy Corbyn. All the people in
:32:48. > :32:52.London who are supporting the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn and
:32:53. > :32:59.reaching out. I am sure that Sadiq and Jeremy will meet in the near
:33:00. > :33:02.future. It is certainly unusual. Caroline Flint has just told us that
:33:03. > :33:08.the Conservatives should be happy and relieved by Thursday's results.
:33:09. > :33:13.I don't think they should. In Exeter they lost four seats. In Ipswich,
:33:14. > :33:18.there were seats we didn't even win in 97. Their share of the vote is
:33:19. > :33:23.down 5%. They didn't make the games expected in Wales. I don't think it
:33:24. > :33:33.is a fantastic result for them at all. I expect the Conservatives will
:33:34. > :33:36.try to turn the focus back on to Labour, but I don't think they've
:33:37. > :33:39.got anything to crow about either at the moment. What do you say to Ian
:33:40. > :33:40.Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the only Labour MP in Scotland. He says,
:33:41. > :33:44.Murray, the Scottish Secretary, the I don't think the public see the UK
:33:45. > :33:51.Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn as being a credible party of future
:33:52. > :33:56.government in 2020. I listened to the whole interview, and I respect
:33:57. > :34:01.Ian Murray great real. I heard his statement. I think he was saying,
:34:02. > :34:05.basically, where we are as a party at the moment isn't good enough. I
:34:06. > :34:10.don't think you'll find anyone in the Labour Party who would disagree
:34:11. > :34:14.with that. We need to move forward and consolidate. These results were
:34:15. > :34:19.not the disaster that you and the punditry were predicting. We were
:34:20. > :34:25.told 150 or 200 seats lost -- would be lost. We were told Jeremy Corbyn
:34:26. > :34:30.wouldn't win, and then he won with a landslide. We won -- we heard that
:34:31. > :34:36.the old by-election would be a disaster. And he won. I think the
:34:37. > :34:46.thing to think about now is that politics is in flux. In the US, we
:34:47. > :34:50.have a socialist running Hillary Clinton to the wire, but then you
:34:51. > :34:54.have Donald Trump standing as well. People are concerned and angry, and
:34:55. > :34:58.things are changing, and the punditry needs to take that into
:34:59. > :35:04.account and reflect that things are changing. We will take that into
:35:05. > :35:09.account. I never use the word disaster to talk about Labour's
:35:10. > :35:15.performance on Thursday. Let's stick with that. I put to you that surely
:35:16. > :35:20.the real lesson from Scotland is this - if you continue to attack
:35:21. > :35:26.north of the border, as you have been, you need to do better in
:35:27. > :35:32.England than even Tony Blair did in 97, and that, I put to you, is
:35:33. > :35:36.frankly fantasy. Let's look at Scotland. It was a very difficult
:35:37. > :35:38.night for us. I would rather you looked at England and tell me how
:35:39. > :35:45.you will do well. This is the issue you will do well. This is the issue
:35:46. > :35:51.- what we have done in this weeks election is consolidate our vote in
:35:52. > :35:57.2015 and improve it by 2%. We now need to move forward. We now have
:35:58. > :36:01.next to no chance of winning in 2020 if we remain a divided house, and
:36:02. > :36:06.that is what has happened at the moment. What we can all learn from
:36:07. > :36:11.Sadiq was explaining is -- in his interview is that we have
:36:12. > :36:16.consolidated our vote in 2015 and improved it, and now we have to move
:36:17. > :36:21.on small businesses, to those who are affected by the government cuts
:36:22. > :36:25.on public services. We need to reach out to people who have voted
:36:26. > :36:30.Conservative in the past. I think it is a message that Jeremy Corbyn has
:36:31. > :36:36.two and will listen to. But the key thing is that a house divided has no
:36:37. > :36:39.chance of being able to do that in 2020. Thank you for joining us.
:36:40. > :36:43.It's just gone 11.35am - you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:44. > :36:45.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:46. > :36:50.we're going to be talking about a big week ahead
:36:51. > :37:18.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:19. > :37:26.With enthusiasm and confidence clearly and firmly behind us, we
:37:27. > :37:28.will collectively get on with the job of delivering for the people of
:37:29. > :37:42.our country. Kezia Dugdale put a brave face on it
:37:43. > :37:45.as the party vote collapsed - can Scottish Labour rebuild
:37:46. > :37:48.or it is a spent force? Asked before the election
:37:49. > :37:50.if the Conservatives would take overtake Labour and become the main
:37:51. > :37:52.opposition, the Tory leader Ruth Davidson
:37:53. > :37:53.responded unequivocally yes. Well, the rest, as
:37:54. > :37:55.they say, is history. Just how did the Conservatives
:37:56. > :37:57.detoxify their brand, win seats for a raft of new MSPs
:37:58. > :38:00.and revitalise the party's fortunes Yesterday Ruth Davidson acknowledged
:38:01. > :38:04.the role played by a coalition of blue collared workers who'd never
:38:05. > :38:06.been persuaded to back She's promised to hold
:38:07. > :38:10.the SNP to account. Earlier I spoke to the party's
:38:11. > :38:28.deputy leader, Jackson Carlaw, Well, Nicola Sturgeon said she has
:38:29. > :38:34.an unequivocal mandate to implement her manifesto. Doshi? Unequivocal is
:38:35. > :38:39.to overstate it. It reminds me of the politics of assertion which
:38:40. > :38:43.worked with a fork in the last government. There is no doubt in our
:38:44. > :38:47.minds the preferred government of Scotland is one run by Nicola
:38:48. > :38:51.Sturgeon and the SNP. But the public have a way of correcting things and
:38:52. > :38:55.I think they were slightly uncomfortable with the overbearing
:38:56. > :39:00.arrogance of the last SNP government and decided they wanted a proper
:39:01. > :39:04.opposition to clip the wings and see a government deposed. Nationalists
:39:05. > :39:09.said we need an opposition and government. That is the job they
:39:10. > :39:14.have entrusted to the Scottish Conservatives. Nicola Sturgeon says
:39:15. > :39:20.Ruth Davidson is overreaching when she says the SNP have no mandate for
:39:21. > :39:23.a second independence referendum. Issue bite? Again, she is asserting
:39:24. > :39:29.a position which is defied by the results. The key platform on which
:39:30. > :39:34.the Scottish Conservatives and Ruth stood was not just the strong
:39:35. > :39:38.opposition but no to a second referendum, no other party was
:39:39. > :39:41.unequivocal about that. We were. A government that no longer has a
:39:42. > :39:46.majority, Nicola Sturgeon in the last week of the campaign, it was
:39:47. > :39:51.the eye word. I will decide I will review, I will look at the opinion
:39:52. > :39:57.polls and to independence. I do not think she has the right to stand
:39:58. > :40:01.there and say it all about her. If you add in the greens there is a
:40:02. > :40:05.pro-independence majority parliament so should they decide collectively
:40:06. > :40:09.they want to push for another referendum, why did not have the
:40:10. > :40:13.right? It would be foolish to try, it was not in the manifesto, I do
:40:14. > :40:17.not think they have mandate and Scotland has made it clear it wants
:40:18. > :40:21.to see the government get on with governments and to put independence
:40:22. > :40:28.issue aside. The Scottish Conservatives have done that. It is
:40:29. > :40:32.not going to happen. You are saying what you think should happen, what
:40:33. > :40:38.is to stop them collectively come the greens and the SNP saying we
:40:39. > :40:41.have a majority, we will push for a second referendum and we have the
:40:42. > :40:47.right to do that because we have a majority. I know the problem with
:40:48. > :40:52.common sense it is it is not common. If the SNP has common sense it will
:40:53. > :40:55.recognise if it pushes on and persists with trying to put Scotland
:40:56. > :41:01.through another referendum it is going to come to grief. They need to
:41:02. > :41:06.demonstrate they can govern the country. Come to grief in what
:41:07. > :41:20.sense? At subsequent elections. That is -- stratification -- satisfaction
:41:21. > :41:25.was down. This was not in the manifesto. I do not think they have
:41:26. > :41:28.a mandate, Nicola Sturgeon wants to implement her manifesto in full,
:41:29. > :41:35.having a second referendum was not in the manifesto. Should they do it
:41:36. > :41:38.and they are asserting they may do it, should they do that, do you
:41:39. > :41:42.think the British government should it, should they do that, do you
:41:43. > :41:47.step in and say, sorry, you can't have that. You do not have the
:41:48. > :41:52.mandate. I do believe it will get to that point. I would not be unhappy
:41:53. > :41:57.if they did but I do not believe it will get to that point. I think we
:41:58. > :42:00.will see a parliament now with a strong opposition, not just from the
:42:01. > :42:05.Conservatives but other opposition parties with more teeth to change
:42:06. > :42:11.the agenda. We will move onto other issues. You say you will not be
:42:12. > :42:15.unhappy if did but that would give the Scottish Nationalists and
:42:16. > :42:19.everyone who supports independence the greatest cause for grievance
:42:20. > :42:24.they ever had. But it isn't going to happen! The focus is going to be on
:42:25. > :42:30.the other issues and the most immediate one is the legislation for
:42:31. > :42:34.which there is a natural majority against. Do you expect that to be
:42:35. > :42:42.one of the first things where you can challenge the unequivocal right
:42:43. > :42:49.of Nicola Sturgeon? Absolutely. We want to stop it. And you think you
:42:50. > :42:53.can? There was a natural majority across other parties that realise
:42:54. > :42:59.the concerns with the public, it became as the election moron a big
:43:00. > :43:05.issue on the doorsteps -- election war on. It is something many SNP
:43:06. > :43:17.people are wondering if they have done the right thing. That is where
:43:18. > :43:20.we will make a difference. Tax. Actually, you are the only
:43:21. > :43:25.opposition party that agrees with the SNP on the basic rate of tax so
:43:26. > :43:29.presumably you would be happy to help them get through their
:43:30. > :43:32.proposals on tax. Well, we have come into the parliament to be a party
:43:33. > :43:36.that will lead the opposition, we will look at the budget as a whole,
:43:37. > :43:42.we will not be looking at it piecemeal to see if there are any
:43:43. > :43:46.trinkets in there. When it comes to opposing rises in the basic rate of
:43:47. > :43:53.tax which the Lib Dems and greens and Labour want, you would stand by
:43:54. > :43:57.the SNP? We do not isolate the budget in that way taking votes on
:43:58. > :44:03.the individual pieces, we look at the budget as a whole. Unless the
:44:04. > :44:08.budget will restore the 152,000 college places and deliver on other
:44:09. > :44:11.key areas we supported then we will be there to oppose the government
:44:12. > :44:16.not to vote piecemeal for things we do not approve. Would you want in
:44:17. > :44:24.negotiations to demand the Scottish government George Osborne's proposal
:44:25. > :44:28.is implemented? The policy will be for the Scottish government to put
:44:29. > :44:34.forward its budget and we will look to see what they do. Our concern is
:44:35. > :44:41.to ensure overall tax in Scotland is no higher here than elsewhere in the
:44:42. > :44:46.UK. We think it is bad. We are conscious of the fact the proposals
:44:47. > :44:49.of the SNP will drag into higher rate tax all manner of people but I
:44:50. > :44:55.do not think were paying high tax five years ago who I do not think
:44:56. > :44:58.people regard as being rich. You could say to them this is what we
:44:59. > :45:03.people regard as being rich. You believe if you want us to support
:45:04. > :45:07.you, give us this. It is not a case of looking at individual tax policy
:45:08. > :45:12.and saying that leads us to support the budget. We will look at the
:45:13. > :45:15.budget in its entirety. We are not going to be standing there beating
:45:16. > :45:20.our chests saying the Tories are back. We'll be standing there saying
:45:21. > :45:24.with Davidsson's Conservatives have arrived and will look at the job of
:45:25. > :45:28.opposition in a completely different way to ensure there was a political
:45:29. > :45:32.opposition, a different centre of gravity in the parliament, a battle
:45:33. > :45:37.of ideas and that is the challenge is open to us if we are to respond
:45:38. > :45:39.to the confidence given to us by people to be the opposition in
:45:40. > :45:42.Scotland. Nine years in office,
:45:43. > :45:44.over a million votes, a third successive term in office
:45:45. > :45:46.and a personal mandate But, crucially, the party fell short
:45:47. > :45:52.of achieving an outright majority. The SNP has ruled out a formal
:45:53. > :45:55.coalition and will need to win support for its legislation
:45:56. > :45:58.by working with the other parties But yesterday Nicola Sturgeon warned
:45:59. > :46:04.the opposition that she has a "clear "and unequivocal" mandate
:46:05. > :46:06.to govern and they shouldn't In a moment, we will speak
:46:07. > :46:16.to Nicola Sturgeon. The party is also no stranger
:46:17. > :46:28.to minority government, 63 SNP MSPs, enough to give Nicola
:46:29. > :46:36.Sturgeon the personal mandate she wanted to stop she will be the new
:46:37. > :46:44.first minister. We pulled more votes than Labour and the Tories combined.
:46:45. > :46:53.We also had a clean sweet in six out of seven of Scotland's cities. 63
:46:54. > :46:57.MSPs is not enough to guarantee a majority at Holyrood and there will
:46:58. > :47:02.be no formal coalition. We are looking at a minority government.
:47:03. > :47:06.Because the SNP have no majority, they will have two reach out for
:47:07. > :47:12.support from other parties and have discussions in the parliament and
:47:13. > :47:17.hopefully open for people to see them. What happens when one party
:47:18. > :47:19.has all the power is that it tends to use the power to concentrate and
:47:20. > :47:31.get itself more power and that is to use the power to concentrate and
:47:32. > :47:38.anathema to democracy. We have been here before. The SNP formed a
:47:39. > :47:42.minority government nine years ago. In 2007 we had some of the most
:47:43. > :47:45.progressive environmental legislation on renewable targets set
:47:46. > :47:53.anywhere in the world. That was part down to the fact the parliament was
:47:54. > :47:59.more diverse as you could not get that with the government, back in
:48:00. > :48:06.2003 when we had the rainbow parliament, we had progressive
:48:07. > :48:12.legislation on tuition fees and free school meal at a slate of came out
:48:13. > :48:16.of those negotiations. But running a government when you are relying on
:48:17. > :48:24.doing deals with parties like the Greens is not always easy. This is
:48:25. > :48:29.the Scottish budget and it should be done better than this. The SNP has
:48:30. > :48:37.worked with conservatives in the past. Our support for that budget
:48:38. > :48:42.was conditional on three major areas of Conservative policy being
:48:43. > :48:46.delivered. A thousand extra police, big cuts in business rates for our
:48:47. > :48:51.smallest businesses and a new National drug strategy for Scotland.
:48:52. > :48:58.Sticking points in this parliament are likely to include the issues of
:48:59. > :49:03.fracking, tax rates, air passenger duty and SNP plans for a named
:49:04. > :49:09.person to look after every child. But for all the excitement of last
:49:10. > :49:14.Thursday night, there were 1.8 million Scots who chose not to vote,
:49:15. > :49:19.45% of the electorate. Some people tell us they do not care enough but
:49:20. > :49:23.when I did research with focus groups people do care a lot, about
:49:24. > :49:28.housing, where they live and each other, they do not think the
:49:29. > :49:35.political system is doing anything to make anything change in a way
:49:36. > :49:39.that is beneficial. So, how do we re-engage those people? You can't
:49:40. > :49:43.talk to them about big political issues at first, if you engage them
:49:44. > :49:47.about things they care about locally, in the town centre then you
:49:48. > :49:54.get onto the Y -- why it is not dealt with and explore the political
:49:55. > :49:57.problems. I think if we look at how we do local democracy and remake
:49:58. > :50:02.local democracy in a way that asks people what they care about and ask
:50:03. > :50:05.them to get involved in solving the problem, and giving them the power
:50:06. > :50:12.then I think you will build a stronger political system and
:50:13. > :50:17.democratic society. Things have changed in Scotland. A lot of people
:50:18. > :50:23.will be looking for what you could call the red rump. It turned up on
:50:24. > :50:25.Thursday in Shetland. This red rump swallow snapped by the fair Isle
:50:26. > :50:27.Bird Observatory. Joining me now is the First Minister
:50:28. > :50:40.and leader of the SNP, Congratulations! You said yesterday,
:50:41. > :50:45.you have won the election and I congratulate you. You talked about
:50:46. > :51:00.having an unequivocal mandate. That is the bit you do not have.
:51:01. > :51:07.We won the election comprehensively. In terms of the SNP as much strength
:51:08. > :51:14.there is no change. We ended the last parliament with 64 MSP 's and
:51:15. > :51:20.now we have 63. The relative strength of the opposition parties
:51:21. > :51:23.have changed. For opposition parties they will be questions for them
:51:24. > :51:28.about whether they want to align themselves more with a progressive
:51:29. > :51:30.left of centre government so I have feeling relaxed about the
:51:31. > :51:40.Parliamentary arithmetic. The SNP won the election. It is not an
:51:41. > :51:48.unequivocal mandate in like you don't have another right majority. I
:51:49. > :51:52.want to govern in an inclusive way because I think it's right to find
:51:53. > :52:01.common ground and build on it. I am not prepared given the scale of the
:52:02. > :52:06.SNP's mandate to allow opposition parties to undermine our ability to
:52:07. > :52:09.argument that manifesto. What you mean by that? I have a mandate to
:52:10. > :52:13.permit the manifesto and I'm going to do that I'd reaching out where I
:52:14. > :52:18.can because I think that's the right thing to do. You say you don't want
:52:19. > :52:22.them to undermine it but you will have to make compromises. Government
:52:23. > :52:26.is about trying to build alliances and I am going to do that and I'm
:52:27. > :52:31.also seeing clearly to the opposition parties I think they need
:52:32. > :52:34.to recognise the scale and the emphatic nature of the mandate the
:52:35. > :52:39.SNP has achieved. We were elected on a manifesto and as First Minister I
:52:40. > :52:46.am intending to implement that manifesto. But you will have to get
:52:47. > :52:51.agreement from others. Take tax, your proposals on the basic rate of
:52:52. > :52:54.tax, the Tories are the only opposition party which supported
:52:55. > :52:59.you. But the Tories don't support this on giving a tax cut to higher
:53:00. > :53:07.rate tax years. The Liberals and Labour will. That is the fundamental
:53:08. > :53:10.point I am making. The opposition parties, there will be rarer
:53:11. > :53:17.occasions when they will come together in a common position. But
:53:18. > :53:21.you just need the support of the Conservatives. We will put forward a
:53:22. > :53:26.budget and six are bought from across the Parliament. But the
:53:27. > :53:31.Conservatives are the only ones who agree with your basic policies. They
:53:32. > :53:35.don't agree with some of our basic policies on tax. He doesn't agree
:53:36. > :53:41.that a higher rate tax payers should be paying more. They don't agree
:53:42. > :53:44.with our basic proposition. But you know if you get your proposals on
:53:45. > :53:51.tax through and the Conservatives vote for you people will say hang on
:53:52. > :53:56.you slack Labour off for ages for being on the same platform and we
:53:57. > :54:00.are now back in a situation where an SNP government is getting its
:54:01. > :54:04.policies through with Tory support. I will put forward a budget based on
:54:05. > :54:13.a manifesto which secured the support of almost 50% of the
:54:14. > :54:18.Scottish publishing. Jackson Carlaw said we don't vote on budgets in
:54:19. > :54:22.terms of the individual aspects, Parliament vote on the totality of a
:54:23. > :54:28.budget. I will seek support for the totality of the budget. That is how
:54:29. > :54:32.I am going to govern, I am going to govern in a way that I think serves
:54:33. > :54:34.the interests of Scotland and I will ask opposition parties to support
:54:35. > :54:38.the interests of Scotland and I will us. I will seek areas of common
:54:39. > :54:41.ground but I am not going to be thwarted in my determination to
:54:42. > :54:43.govern in the interests of the country. Independence referendum.
:54:44. > :54:49.Can we put that on to bed for the country. Independence referendum.
:54:50. > :54:52.next five years? The position I put forward in the manifesto got the
:54:53. > :54:56.support of almost 50% of the population. I know the Tories by the
:54:57. > :55:00.standards had a good night on Thursday but we have to put it in
:55:01. > :55:03.context. They put forward the position and Jackson Carlaw said
:55:04. > :55:06.they were the only ones going in with an unequivocal position of
:55:07. > :55:18.saying no to an independence referendum -- referendum.
:55:19. > :55:25.Your manifesto was not an ambiguous. The Greens manifesto said they
:55:26. > :55:29.wanted a million people to sign up to a petition before they would
:55:30. > :55:30.support another referendum. The Scottish Parliament should have the
:55:31. > :55:36.support another referendum. The right to propose another referendum.
:55:37. > :55:42.What I acknowledged during the campaign is that those circumstances
:55:43. > :55:46.do not yet exist. Do you need a million strong petition? The point
:55:47. > :55:50.in going to make is that directly raised in the campaign that those of
:55:51. > :55:54.us who support independence have got work to do to address the issues
:55:55. > :55:58.that many people who could have backed the Yes campaign ultimately
:55:59. > :56:04.didn't. We have to address those issues. Talking about another
:56:05. > :56:09.referendum before we do that is putting the cart before the horse.
:56:10. > :56:12.The Greens have even less of a mandate for a referendum than you
:56:13. > :56:20.do. They said they wanted a million people to sign a petition. You are
:56:21. > :56:27.claiming that because of the Greens you have a majority in parliament.
:56:28. > :56:39.We have a majority of MSP supporting Scotland becoming independent. What
:56:40. > :56:41.I am also saying is that those of us who support independence have got a
:56:42. > :56:46.job to do to build the majority support not in parliament had in the
:56:47. > :56:52.country for independence because that will determine the question.
:56:53. > :56:55.Jackson Carlaw said he would not be unhappy if you keep going on about
:56:56. > :57:00.this and the British Government stepped in and said you are not
:57:01. > :57:03.having one. It might not suit the Tories or Jackson Carlaw David
:57:04. > :57:09.Cameron but we live in a democracy and I am entitled to make the case.
:57:10. > :57:13.The point here is a fundamental democratic point. My manifesto said
:57:14. > :57:17.the Scottish Parliament should have the right to propose a referendum if
:57:18. > :57:20.there is evidence that it is the preferred option of the majority of
:57:21. > :57:26.the Scottish people. If what Conservatives are saying, they would
:57:27. > :57:31.stand in a way of a clear majority, it is not me that's on a killer --
:57:32. > :57:37.collision course with the Scottish publishing it is the Tories. We have
:57:38. > :57:47.had referendums in Britain where there is clear -- clearly an issue.
:57:48. > :57:52.We've had a referendum. The way the opinion polls go, that is not the
:57:53. > :57:54.way British politics works. If we end up in a situation where there is
:57:55. > :57:59.clear demand in Scotland for end up in a situation where there is
:58:00. > :58:05.independence and the Tories decide to be a roadblock, then I think the
:58:06. > :58:11.Tories will find themselves with any talk of a recovery, that recovery
:58:12. > :58:15.will come to a juddering halt. You say you want a new campaign for
:58:16. > :58:23.independence starting this summer. I am very unclear what this is. When
:58:24. > :58:31.we launch that campaign in the summer we will be clear what form it
:58:32. > :58:38.takes. I will unveil it in the summer. This is a point I am making
:58:39. > :58:44.with a great degree of humility. Why do I think we need to have a new
:58:45. > :58:48.initiative to persuade people about independence? Because as things
:58:49. > :58:51.stood in the referendum we didn't do enough to persuade a majority. I
:58:52. > :58:57.believe independence is the best each other Scotland. Is this a
:58:58. > :59:11.campaign for another wreck -- referendum? This is a process of
:59:12. > :59:15.listening to people and putting the arguments forward. In a democracy
:59:16. > :59:18.that is the right thing to do. I believe in the strength of my case
:59:19. > :59:25.but I also accept I have to persuade other people. I am per stash
:59:26. > :59:29.prepared to do that patiently. I don't see what anybody would find
:59:30. > :59:37.objectionable that. I was just asking what you are going to do.
:59:38. > :59:42.There is a lot of unhappiness from the other parties. Is that something
:59:43. > :59:54.you would be prepared to say, we will have another look at it? I
:59:55. > :59:59.think Jackson Carlaw was wrong. I will put forward the arguments
:00:00. > :00:06.because they are fundamentally sound. I recognise that we have work
:00:07. > :00:17.to do to address the concerns that some parents have about this. I
:00:18. > :00:19.think some of these concerns are unfounded and they have to make sure
:00:20. > :00:24.think some of these concerns are we address those concerns. Why not
:00:25. > :00:31.do what you did on some legal issues in the last Parliament? We will put
:00:32. > :00:36.this to one side and start another way of doing it. I believe it is the
:00:37. > :00:39.right way of doing it and I can point to the fact it is a policy
:00:40. > :00:46.that is tried and tested. It has been in operation in for local
:00:47. > :00:51.council areas for some time. It is a policy that is tried and tested and
:00:52. > :00:57.think it is right. Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.
:00:58. > :00:59."Self immolation for dummies", was how one former MP described
:01:00. > :01:01.the election platform on which Scottish Labour campaigned.
:01:02. > :01:03.Most in the Scottish party are maintaining public loyalty
:01:04. > :01:06.and rallying round Kezia Dugdale, arguing she needs more time.
:01:07. > :01:07.But there's no doubt that their performance
:01:08. > :01:10.on Thursday night was little short of a disaster.
:01:11. > :01:12.Squeezed between the SNP and the Tories, the party
:01:13. > :01:14.was reduced to twenty four MSPs and pushed into third place
:01:15. > :01:18.James Kelly who was re-elected on the Glasgow list,
:01:19. > :01:20.said he believed they had fought an energetic campaign focused
:01:21. > :01:31.on the protection of public services and how to fund them.
:01:32. > :01:42.If we are honest about it it was a disappointing result for the Labour
:01:43. > :01:46.Party. We have two face up to the circumstances we are in. But you
:01:47. > :01:49.Party. We have two face up to the were pretty confident he would still
:01:50. > :01:53.be the main opposition party. Yes but the reality is that is a
:01:54. > :01:57.fundamental challenge we have is Labour Party and it is a widespread
:01:58. > :02:00.one and no matter what we said I don't think the people of Scotland
:02:01. > :02:05.at this moment are ready and willing to listen to us. That is a challenge
:02:06. > :02:12.for the party going forward. Should it go forward and the care they are
:02:13. > :02:17.the deal? Definitely. She is a confident and able leader. I think
:02:18. > :02:22.she deserves the time to take the party forward. You might believe
:02:23. > :02:27.that but the trouble is the Scottish voters don't. It is difficult to say
:02:28. > :02:31.that. The challenge we got the party is we should not allow our
:02:32. > :02:38.opposition to define or problems for us. Secondly we have to look at the
:02:39. > :02:42.big issues and that is not about personalities, this is a long-term
:02:43. > :02:51.problem with the Labour Party has had since 2003. Can you really see
:02:52. > :03:00.tested the deal leading the party into another election? Yes because
:03:01. > :03:06.the reality is we have campaigned to be the opposition. That is all the
:03:07. > :03:10.Conservatives can ever be. The only people who can defeat the SNP and
:03:11. > :03:20.former government at some point in the future is the Scottish Labour
:03:21. > :03:23.Party. She is the right person to do that wouldn't take us forward. The
:03:24. > :03:27.key challenge for the Labour Party as we have defined that fundamental
:03:28. > :03:33.cause. You can ask me today what the cause of the Labour Party is, I am a
:03:34. > :03:38.passionate socialist and I want to fight injustice and eradicate
:03:39. > :03:45.poverty but Scottish people want to know what it means for me. The
:03:46. > :03:55.Tories have cause. The SNP has a cause which is independence. We have
:03:56. > :04:02.to find that same passion and cause. A lot of people will say the problem
:04:03. > :04:08.with Labour at the moment is what is the Labour Party for? And you have
:04:09. > :04:15.in so many words said that you don't have a clue. No, of course I know
:04:16. > :04:19.what the Labour Party is for. We have defined who we stand with but
:04:20. > :04:26.the challenge is finding that caused to get people passionately behind
:04:27. > :04:31.it. You are telling me to days after an election in which you got
:04:32. > :04:37.walloped that you need to find a cause. You should have thought about
:04:38. > :04:40.that awhile ago. My cause will always be to fight inequality and
:04:41. > :04:46.create opportunity and fight against injustice but up against a situation
:04:47. > :04:50.where we have Unionism versus nationalism that is a real difficult
:04:51. > :04:53.question for the Labour Party. The reality is we are not comfortable
:04:54. > :04:59.nationalists and we are not comfortable Unionists.
:05:00. > :05:10.I genuinely believe... How do you sort the problem out? One thing
:05:11. > :05:15.affecting you is this ambivalence towards independence which you
:05:16. > :05:22.articulated, Kezia Dugdale, her attitude depended which interview
:05:23. > :05:26.she was doing and people but that on what has become a decisive issue in
:05:27. > :05:31.Scottish politics, Labour do not seem to know where they are. There
:05:32. > :05:37.is no ambivalence, we are proud of our stance in the referendum and
:05:38. > :05:41.campaigned... When your leader tells interviewer she might vote for
:05:42. > :05:46.independence if Scotland voted to stay in the EU but Britain voted to
:05:47. > :05:50.leave, your leader says she might vote for independence, no matter how
:05:51. > :05:57.much afterwards she says she did not know what got into her, that is not
:05:58. > :06:02.unambiguous. She has said we will not support any referendum in this
:06:03. > :06:08.Parliament. She campaigned passionately and was campaigning for
:06:09. > :06:13.the UK but the challenge we have is firstly we tried and perhaps too
:06:14. > :06:17.early to move past the referendum, unless we transform our country I do
:06:18. > :06:27.not think the electorate is there yet, the yes or no question... Let
:06:28. > :06:30.me be clear, the biggest threat to the UK is not the Scottish National
:06:31. > :06:35.Party, it is the Conservatives and the actions of David Cameron and the
:06:36. > :06:40.Tories that putting the UK under threat. The trouble is Kezia Dugdale
:06:41. > :06:43.came out with this line you came out with about how you moved too far
:06:44. > :06:50.ahead, you are coming dangerously close to saying that Labour was
:06:51. > :06:56.failed by the people of Scotland. Far from it, what I'm saying is more
:06:57. > :07:00.difficult than that for Labour. This is a greater challenge for us, it
:07:01. > :07:07.does not need tinkering at the edges of who individuals are, it is not
:07:08. > :07:11.tinkering of politics but we have a fundamental in Scotland where the
:07:12. > :07:17.people are not listening to us right now and we need to be listened to.
:07:18. > :07:23.Ian Murray, your remaining MP in Scotland says part of the problem is
:07:24. > :07:26.Jeremy Corbyn does not present a credible alternative to the Tories
:07:27. > :07:30.as a government in Westminster and that is not helping Labour. We have
:07:31. > :07:38.to present a credible alternative to the Tories in Westminster... I am a
:07:39. > :07:41.fan of Jeremy Corbyn, I like the way he has come forward but we need to
:07:42. > :07:43.do it in a credible way and demonstrate we can defeat the
:07:44. > :07:46.Tories. Thank you. Well, we make no apology for looking
:07:47. > :07:49.back at the week just past, as well as looking forward
:07:50. > :07:58.to the Week Ahead. To help me do that
:07:59. > :08:01.we've got two guests - Severin Carrell, who is the Scotland
:08:02. > :08:11.editor at the Guardian, It seems odd starting with those who
:08:12. > :08:17.lost most but I wanted to ask you about that can rent when he said the
:08:18. > :08:21.problem with Labour is they're not comfortable nationally -- comment
:08:22. > :08:25.and not comfortable unionists. Quite an extraordinary thing for someone
:08:26. > :08:29.to say. It is the great conundrum and challenge Scottish Labour face
:08:30. > :08:34.because Kezia Dugdale is adamant she has to lead an autonomous party that
:08:35. > :08:38.talks to Scotland and fights on Scottish affairs for Scotland. At
:08:39. > :08:43.the same time they have to portray themselves as part of a family of
:08:44. > :08:48.parties across the UK. They are trapped by language and these two
:08:49. > :08:54.great tensions between the large group of Labour politicians, David
:08:55. > :08:56.Martin and others who say the Scottish Labour Party has do advance
:08:57. > :09:02.home-rule agenda and be more positive about increased Scottish
:09:03. > :09:07.powers, federal agenda but also those who want to focus more on
:09:08. > :09:12.domestic day-to-day politics. It is a question of language. They are not
:09:13. > :09:16.Unionists because they set up a devolved parliament, they have a
:09:17. > :09:17.long long heritage of believing in campaigning for Scottish home rule
:09:18. > :09:21.in the UK and they are not campaigning for Scottish home rule
:09:22. > :09:24.nationalists so they do have a problem about how they frame what
:09:25. > :09:30.they want to offer. They need to sort that out. You could presumably
:09:31. > :09:34.try to seize home rule a own agenda by making it quite clear you do not
:09:35. > :09:38.want to see the break up of the UK. The Lib Dems, that has been their
:09:39. > :09:44.policy for decades. Why does Labour have such difficulty? This is as
:09:45. > :09:50.much to do with the confidence voters have in the overall package,
:09:51. > :09:54.look at the tax issue Kezia Dugdale was arguing forcefully for, it did
:09:55. > :09:58.not make a jot of difference to the Labour Party vote in the final
:09:59. > :10:01.outcome because people might like the product, they may not want the
:10:02. > :10:08.manufacturer. They may not have enough trust in the person offering
:10:09. > :10:13.the product and that'll be a problem for the constitutional issue. The
:10:14. > :10:19.other Labour problem is what they were campaigning for was a solution
:10:20. > :10:22.arrived at by all parties, the Smith commission was pretty much a
:10:23. > :10:27.mutually agreed package that all the parties participated in, including
:10:28. > :10:33.the SNP. The previous proposals and commission was a deal, a deeply
:10:34. > :10:37.flawed proposition but it was arrived at through a process of
:10:38. > :10:43.conversations, the Lib Dems and conservatives. The Labour Party have
:10:44. > :10:48.the space now and the challenge, the absolute requirement to go out and
:10:49. > :10:54.start strike out, do some blue sky thinking, new ground and fresh
:10:55. > :10:58.territory. OK, the SNP won, they did not win out right. Nicola Sturgeon
:10:59. > :11:03.seemed adamant that she still thought she could pretty much do
:11:04. > :11:08.what she wanted. I think she still has the whip hand. That is the case.
:11:09. > :11:13.She is correct to say at the end of the parliament they only had 64
:11:14. > :11:18.MSPs, 63 now. The beauty of the position is they have two smaller
:11:19. > :11:23.parties both which can get as near as dammit to a majority. The
:11:24. > :11:27.Scottish Greens are the more natural part is that the SNP because part of
:11:28. > :11:32.the challenge for Nicola Sturgeon is it is clear a lot of SNP voters gave
:11:33. > :11:38.the Scottish Greens their second vote. That 5%, 5-point difference
:11:39. > :11:45.between what the SNP got on the constituency vote and regionally
:11:46. > :11:49.went to the Scottish Greens. So, one assumes many SNP activists and
:11:50. > :11:53.voters would say Nicola you need to stick to pat -- speak to Patrick
:11:54. > :11:58.press. The Lib Dems will want to come back as well. Willie Rennie
:11:59. > :12:02.will want to assert his party position and role. What about
:12:03. > :12:06.independence? Is what Nicola Sturgeon said about not ruling it
:12:07. > :12:12.out, is as brave words or is there any possibility now of a second
:12:13. > :12:17.referendum? It is diminished. We do not know what will happen with
:12:18. > :12:24.Brexit and other things on issues around the Tory party or whatever
:12:25. > :12:27.but as things stand, no, it has diminished. Nicola Haseler and
:12:28. > :12:36.balancing act, her intentions. She has two keep our rank and file SNP
:12:37. > :12:40.members and again 25% of the Scottish population voted for her on
:12:41. > :12:45.Thursday, happy and confident they have a party that will push on the
:12:46. > :12:49.big issue the SNP are most clearly aligned with and that is
:12:50. > :12:52.independence. On the politics of it, the economics, they are looking
:12:53. > :12:58.really really difficult and I cannot see anything other... Is a new
:12:59. > :13:03.problem that the SNP have to keep happy all these people in the seats
:13:04. > :13:06.they won in Glasgow who may agree more with Labour on tax but also how
:13:07. > :13:12.a problem that the vote more with Labour on tax but also how
:13:13. > :13:16.declining, it is not haemorrhaging but in nutritional areas they are
:13:17. > :13:22.losing out to the Tories say they need to worry about these things.
:13:23. > :13:30.There is a problem, the first minister was right to say we have 63
:13:31. > :13:35.MSPs, 64 but if you look at the numbers in the constituency is the
:13:36. > :13:40.SNP share of the vote fell proportionally in as many as 30 of
:13:41. > :13:45.the 60 seats they won. They have not had a brilliant election by any
:13:46. > :13:48.means. It has been very very good but not as successful as 2011. We
:13:49. > :13:49.must leave it there. I'll be back at the
:13:50. > :13:54.same time next week.