:00:36. > :00:42.Just over a fortnight to go and the referendum
:00:43. > :00:44.debate is getting serious, with John Major launching a
:00:45. > :00:51.We'll be discussing the week's big developments
:00:52. > :00:58.campaigns, and we've got two big hitters for the price of one -
:00:59. > :01:00.I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,
:01:01. > :01:02.I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott
:01:03. > :01:07.And if you haven't decided how to vote yet you're not the only one -
:01:08. > :01:10.one MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal
:01:11. > :01:12.live on air if he's backing Leave or Remain.
:01:13. > :01:14.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:15. > :01:17.We're taking the temperature on the EU with Scotland Stronger
:01:18. > :01:20.in Europe, and in the Western Isles which voted no to the EEC
:01:21. > :01:36.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:37. > :01:38.more likely to trust the word of a random stranger
:01:39. > :01:44.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:45. > :01:46.I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority
:01:47. > :01:49.It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.
:01:50. > :01:51.We'll try and find some random strangers to replace
:01:52. > :01:56.them next week, and see if you notice the difference!
:01:57. > :01:59.So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this
:02:00. > :02:01.referendum campaign, you only have to look at this
:02:02. > :02:04.morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major
:02:05. > :02:06.taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.
:02:07. > :02:09.The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party
:02:10. > :02:11.to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping
:02:12. > :02:16.It seems like John Major didn't get the message,
:02:17. > :02:19.as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,
:02:20. > :02:23.and called Boris Johnson a court jester.
:02:24. > :02:27.Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.
:02:28. > :02:32.This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,
:02:33. > :02:35.for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,
:02:36. > :02:37.straightforward facts and they decide to leave,
:02:38. > :02:39.then that is the decision the British people take.
:02:40. > :02:45.But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate
:02:46. > :02:47.information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,
:02:48. > :02:55.Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.
:02:56. > :02:58.And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit
:02:59. > :03:03.of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say
:03:04. > :03:07.And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms
:03:08. > :03:09.of what they are saying about immigration, a really
:03:10. > :03:15.They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.
:03:16. > :03:17.So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,
:03:18. > :03:21.when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined
:03:22. > :03:24.to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt
:03:25. > :03:28.by the Remain campaign to "take him out".
:03:29. > :03:30.Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...
:03:31. > :03:32.I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...
:03:33. > :03:38.He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,
:03:39. > :03:40.and what he wants to hear is the arguments,
:03:41. > :03:56.Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the
:03:57. > :04:00.memo from down the street, that was a joke.
:04:01. > :04:04.The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to
:04:05. > :04:08.beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled
:04:09. > :04:12.they are? My own evidence is they are very
:04:13. > :04:24.rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday
:04:25. > :04:30.night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.
:04:31. > :04:35.This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language
:04:36. > :04:39.being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very
:04:40. > :04:42.serious questions about how the party comes together.
:04:43. > :04:47.We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come
:04:48. > :04:53.together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on
:04:54. > :04:57.June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a
:04:58. > :05:02.Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers
:05:03. > :05:07.to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew
:05:08. > :05:10.Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the
:05:11. > :05:16.Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.
:05:17. > :05:21.John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,
:05:22. > :05:26.depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.
:05:27. > :05:31.There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major
:05:32. > :05:34.was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,
:05:35. > :05:38.currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.
:05:39. > :05:42.They are worried and trying to harm that.
:05:43. > :05:46.So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for
:05:47. > :05:52.Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for
:05:53. > :05:56.pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when
:05:57. > :05:59.it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a
:06:00. > :06:06.bubble. That is my understanding. The danger
:06:07. > :06:13.is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this
:06:14. > :06:17.debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.
:06:18. > :06:20.The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.
:06:21. > :06:26.The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to
:06:27. > :06:32.make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote
:06:33. > :06:35.against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all
:06:36. > :06:44.the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.
:06:45. > :06:49.It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.
:06:50. > :06:54.From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is
:06:55. > :06:59.prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to
:07:00. > :07:05.win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the
:07:06. > :07:08.likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a
:07:09. > :07:11.court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,
:07:12. > :07:17.Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like
:07:18. > :07:22.giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can
:07:23. > :07:27.you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they
:07:28. > :07:34.are prepared to trash their own party's brand.
:07:35. > :07:38.Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking
:07:39. > :07:42.to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.
:07:43. > :07:45.It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John
:07:46. > :07:51.Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very
:07:52. > :07:53.early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some
:07:54. > :08:00.questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.
:08:01. > :08:03.Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they
:08:04. > :08:09.exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.
:08:10. > :08:13.Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on
:08:14. > :08:17.his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.
:08:18. > :08:22.I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.
:08:23. > :08:25.As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.
:08:26. > :08:27.This is such an important development, it tells us about the
:08:28. > :08:31.remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,
:08:32. > :08:33.today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,
:08:34. > :08:37.the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,
:08:38. > :08:42.will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting
:08:43. > :08:46.back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,
:08:47. > :08:50.they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,
:08:51. > :08:57.depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first
:08:58. > :09:01.to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning
:09:02. > :09:04.to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative
:09:05. > :09:12.Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me
:09:13. > :09:15.on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving
:09:16. > :09:19.is the modern choice. The European Union
:09:20. > :09:21.is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs
:09:22. > :09:27.looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken
:09:28. > :09:30.by technological change. Second, because it's
:09:31. > :09:36.the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels
:09:37. > :09:38.?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money
:09:39. > :09:45.to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right
:09:46. > :09:58.to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,
:09:59. > :10:02.we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves
:10:03. > :10:06.instead of passing power to people who may not
:10:07. > :10:09.have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's
:10:10. > :10:13.the confident choice. We are a merchant,
:10:14. > :10:16.maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy
:10:17. > :10:20.on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders
:10:21. > :10:24.on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most
:10:25. > :10:26.widely studied language, before we are able to run our own
:10:27. > :10:33.affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends
:10:34. > :10:36.and allies on every continent, including Europe,
:10:37. > :10:42.but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan
:10:43. > :10:44.and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,
:10:45. > :10:46.you've just five You can only ask questions,
:10:47. > :11:00.or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a
:11:01. > :11:04.string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,
:11:05. > :11:09.make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an
:11:10. > :11:12.independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the
:11:13. > :11:14.opposite? Five former chancellors are
:11:15. > :11:21.campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...
:11:22. > :11:27.Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to
:11:28. > :11:30.vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and
:11:31. > :11:34.depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in
:11:35. > :11:40.a report. He hasn't. You will have to do
:11:41. > :11:44.better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away
:11:45. > :11:50.from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the
:11:51. > :11:58.uncertainty? All these international bodies...
:11:59. > :12:03.Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,
:12:04. > :12:08.international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free
:12:09. > :12:18.lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that
:12:19. > :12:21.is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is
:12:22. > :12:27.widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole
:12:28. > :12:31.of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for
:12:32. > :12:38.public services. They were feeding in the same basic
:12:39. > :12:41.data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.
:12:42. > :12:44.They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a
:12:45. > :12:51.whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The
:12:52. > :12:54.reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing
:12:55. > :12:59.something more productive than regulating everyone else is we
:13:00. > :13:05.shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.
:13:06. > :13:11.There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that
:13:12. > :13:17.hasn't grown. Another question, you have described
:13:18. > :13:21.the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust
:13:22. > :13:26.the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?
:13:27. > :13:31.I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a
:13:32. > :13:34.pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.
:13:35. > :13:39.The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.
:13:40. > :13:43.It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving
:13:44. > :13:50.a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies
:13:51. > :13:56.across the control -- the channel but in our interests.
:13:57. > :14:01.We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to
:14:02. > :14:05.trust any other politician but the British electorate.
:14:06. > :14:08.The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would
:14:09. > :14:12.admit that at least. Can you name a country that has
:14:13. > :14:16.access to the single market but does not accept free movement?
:14:17. > :14:23.The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...
:14:24. > :14:26.You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has
:14:27. > :14:32.access to the single market. There is a free trade area from
:14:33. > :14:37.non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and
:14:38. > :14:41.Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?
:14:42. > :14:47.Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.
:14:48. > :14:52.Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural
:14:53. > :14:58.Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.
:14:59. > :15:01.If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food
:15:02. > :15:06.importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we
:15:07. > :15:13.can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.
:15:14. > :15:17.In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between
:15:18. > :15:22.the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore
:15:23. > :15:24.guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European
:15:25. > :15:29.migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back
:15:30. > :15:34.door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but
:15:35. > :15:39.do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which
:15:40. > :15:44.includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in
:15:45. > :15:49.the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't
:15:50. > :15:54.take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and
:15:55. > :15:58.non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a
:15:59. > :16:01.problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the
:16:02. > :16:07.interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,
:16:08. > :16:13.let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.
:16:14. > :16:15.We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.
:16:16. > :16:17.Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,
:16:18. > :16:20.Businesses benefit from a European single market
:16:21. > :16:26.Workers benefit from employment protection.
:16:27. > :16:28.We trade more with the EU than any other country.
:16:29. > :16:33.from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.
:16:34. > :16:36.And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment
:16:37. > :16:39.and create more jobs for the next generation.
:16:40. > :16:42.In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face
:16:43. > :16:44.no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.
:16:45. > :16:46.Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -
:16:47. > :16:47.by working with our European partners,
:16:48. > :16:54.we can meet these challenges successfully.
:16:55. > :16:59.predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.
:17:00. > :17:02.And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,
:17:03. > :17:14.It would create a black hole in our public finances,
:17:15. > :17:18.meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.
:17:19. > :17:29.for more jobs, prosperity and security.
:17:30. > :17:31.As before, Dan, you now have five minutes
:17:32. > :17:35.to put your questions. Off you go.
:17:36. > :17:43.Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is
:17:44. > :17:47.undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,
:17:48. > :17:53.and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you
:17:54. > :17:58.would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think
:17:59. > :18:02.that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best
:18:03. > :18:06.of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our
:18:07. > :18:10.currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we
:18:11. > :18:14.have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What
:18:15. > :18:19.can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'
:18:20. > :18:29.time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is
:18:30. > :18:31.on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?
:18:32. > :18:35.More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how
:18:36. > :18:40.many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay
:18:41. > :18:44.in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would
:18:45. > :18:57.not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that
:18:58. > :19:02.but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go
:19:03. > :19:09.to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we
:19:10. > :19:13.are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about
:19:14. > :19:17.how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it
:19:18. > :19:21.safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a
:19:22. > :19:26.passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I
:19:27. > :19:31.do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great
:19:32. > :19:34.extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate
:19:35. > :19:38.change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we
:19:39. > :19:42.share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we
:19:43. > :19:45.have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that
:19:46. > :19:51.has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general
:19:52. > :19:55.population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do
:19:56. > :19:58.you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project
:19:59. > :20:02.where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,
:20:03. > :20:06.where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,
:20:07. > :20:09.and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of
:20:10. > :20:13.millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like
:20:14. > :20:18.around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the
:20:19. > :20:22.centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a
:20:23. > :20:25.force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a
:20:26. > :20:29.Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our
:20:30. > :20:33.MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have
:20:34. > :20:37.the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable
:20:38. > :20:42.as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether
:20:43. > :20:47.health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in
:20:48. > :20:51.those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign
:20:52. > :20:55.says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get
:20:56. > :21:00.cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low
:21:01. > :21:05.and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On
:21:06. > :21:09.the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my
:21:10. > :21:17.constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most
:21:18. > :21:21.if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,
:21:22. > :21:24.the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will
:21:25. > :21:30.be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people
:21:31. > :21:36.earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument
:21:37. > :21:40.for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is
:21:41. > :21:46.one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their
:21:47. > :21:51.mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is
:21:52. > :21:54.not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue
:21:55. > :21:58.out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see
:21:59. > :22:03.the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes
:22:04. > :22:06.of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast
:22:07. > :22:09.majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about
:22:10. > :22:14.what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have
:22:15. > :22:18.the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the
:22:19. > :22:26.rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.
:22:27. > :22:30.Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should
:22:31. > :22:34.stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European
:22:35. > :22:39.Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today
:22:40. > :22:44.if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you
:22:45. > :22:46.both for that. So, this week both sides of this
:22:47. > :22:49.referendum have really The big set-piece TV
:22:50. > :22:52.grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been
:22:53. > :22:54.knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally
:22:55. > :22:57.to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about
:22:58. > :22:59.all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been
:23:00. > :23:01.on the buses to see where this
:23:02. > :23:02.campaign is heading. There's livestock,
:23:03. > :23:04.there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man
:23:05. > :23:08.with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have
:23:09. > :23:12.accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum
:23:13. > :23:21.started to feel a bit more like a general election
:23:22. > :23:23.campaign, and not just because of
:23:24. > :23:25.the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled
:23:26. > :23:26.a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,
:23:27. > :23:29.and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers
:23:30. > :23:35.that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -
:23:36. > :23:39.not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,
:23:40. > :23:46.he's just a person that's walked in here
:23:47. > :23:49.and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could
:23:50. > :23:53.say it, I can promise. First of all,
:23:54. > :23:58.where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit
:23:59. > :24:02.of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of
:24:03. > :24:05.support, a lot of support, and a lot of people
:24:06. > :24:08.coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,
:24:09. > :24:11.we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need
:24:12. > :24:15.reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me
:24:16. > :24:20.a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,
:24:21. > :24:23.and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn
:24:24. > :24:30.made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know
:24:31. > :24:34.the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was
:24:35. > :24:36.a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,
:24:37. > :24:42.which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,
:24:43. > :24:48.he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful
:24:49. > :24:54.for that. Our journey took us to a building
:24:55. > :24:57.site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim
:24:58. > :25:00.is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign
:25:01. > :25:04.money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?
:25:05. > :25:08.No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants
:25:09. > :25:12.and things like that. Too many of them now
:25:13. > :25:15.coming into this country. Well, inevitably,
:25:16. > :25:17.I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign
:25:18. > :25:21.got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -
:25:22. > :25:24.in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary
:25:25. > :25:31.David Miliband. Some people might say
:25:32. > :25:34.that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile
:25:35. > :25:38.foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,
:25:39. > :25:41.what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,
:25:42. > :25:44.and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,
:25:45. > :25:46.this is my home country, and although it's not where I live
:25:47. > :25:49.and work at the moment, I still feel that there is
:25:50. > :25:51.a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues
:25:52. > :25:54.and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy
:25:55. > :25:55.issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger
:25:56. > :25:59.in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's
:26:00. > :26:02.double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum
:26:03. > :26:05.battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there
:26:06. > :26:12.defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum
:26:13. > :26:14.campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been
:26:15. > :26:17.full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime
:26:18. > :26:23.Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott
:26:24. > :26:26.seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column
:26:27. > :26:28.today that his party's message
:26:29. > :26:42.hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.
:26:43. > :26:46.Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked
:26:47. > :26:51.the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,
:26:52. > :26:55.I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the
:26:56. > :26:59.strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will
:27:00. > :27:03.have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but
:27:04. > :27:07.where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between
:27:08. > :27:13.them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the
:27:14. > :27:18.European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the
:27:19. > :27:23.arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's
:27:24. > :27:27.bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a
:27:28. > :27:33.government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and
:27:34. > :27:40.when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the
:27:41. > :27:43.Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not
:27:44. > :27:47.putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because
:27:48. > :27:52.they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get
:27:53. > :27:57.another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried
:27:58. > :28:03.that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to
:28:04. > :28:07.vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to
:28:08. > :28:10.hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether
:28:11. > :28:14.they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is
:28:15. > :28:23.basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in
:28:24. > :28:25.billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all
:28:26. > :28:29.these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the
:28:30. > :28:32.bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we
:28:33. > :28:36.must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social
:28:37. > :28:44.justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!
:28:45. > :28:49.Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look
:28:50. > :28:54.at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the
:28:55. > :28:59.Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things
:29:00. > :29:04.predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should
:29:05. > :29:09.remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies
:29:10. > :29:13.of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but
:29:14. > :29:19.I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy
:29:20. > :29:24.is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!
:29:25. > :29:28.But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has
:29:29. > :29:34.happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!
:29:35. > :29:38.On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that
:29:39. > :29:44.they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against
:29:45. > :29:49.social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we
:29:50. > :29:54.all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people
:29:55. > :29:57.are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he
:29:58. > :30:02.said, but point out what these beggars did in government!
:30:03. > :30:12.What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter
:30:13. > :30:12.offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.
:30:13. > :30:41.Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they
:30:42. > :30:45.want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the
:30:46. > :30:52.Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the
:30:53. > :30:56.common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,
:30:57. > :31:00.I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On
:31:01. > :31:04.that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.
:31:05. > :31:13.I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe
:31:14. > :31:15.so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an
:31:16. > :31:17.argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure
:31:18. > :31:23.the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet
:31:24. > :31:27.Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime
:31:28. > :31:35.Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia
:31:36. > :31:38.Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been
:31:39. > :31:46.suspended from your party, have you thought this through?
:31:47. > :31:51.Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't
:31:52. > :31:55.when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they
:31:56. > :32:00.can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there
:32:01. > :32:04.is confusion as to the Labour position.
:32:05. > :32:09.Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most
:32:10. > :32:16.of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,
:32:17. > :32:27.8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside
:32:28. > :32:29.them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you
:32:30. > :32:31.disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I
:32:32. > :32:34.wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the
:32:35. > :32:36.Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this
:32:37. > :32:41.referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in
:32:42. > :32:46.to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the
:32:47. > :32:50.referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get
:32:51. > :32:56.concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is
:32:57. > :33:05.what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We
:33:06. > :33:11.need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its
:33:12. > :33:15.own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the
:33:16. > :33:21.issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island
:33:22. > :33:26.shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no
:33:27. > :33:31.say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might
:33:32. > :33:35.bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you
:33:36. > :33:40.available? I have done my bit for the Labour
:33:41. > :33:45.Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I
:33:46. > :33:53.want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused
:33:54. > :34:01.because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it
:34:02. > :34:04.and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole
:34:05. > :34:12.political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global
:34:13. > :34:17.solution. There will be more migration coming from African
:34:18. > :34:21.countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This
:34:22. > :34:25.is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global
:34:26. > :34:29.solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of
:34:30. > :34:31.it. Thank you.
:34:32. > :34:33.Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,
:34:34. > :34:36.you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll
:34:37. > :34:39.It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.
:34:40. > :34:42.But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory
:34:43. > :34:46.Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,
:34:47. > :34:49.as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time
:34:50. > :35:03.What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of
:35:04. > :35:07.people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the
:35:08. > :35:10.level of debate. Even today.
:35:11. > :35:17.What is your decision? It is important to get this across.
:35:18. > :35:19.But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the
:35:20. > :35:23.Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset
:35:24. > :35:30.people. In terms of this referendum, it is
:35:31. > :35:34.clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and
:35:35. > :35:37.said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.
:35:38. > :35:41.If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth
:35:42. > :35:46.around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life
:35:47. > :35:50.chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.
:35:51. > :35:55.And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not
:35:56. > :35:58.convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.
:35:59. > :36:02.A poll I have been running has come out and said that.
:36:03. > :36:08.When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It
:36:09. > :36:14.has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is
:36:15. > :36:19.a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to
:36:20. > :36:22.forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.
:36:23. > :36:30.That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic
:36:31. > :36:32.arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear
:36:33. > :36:39.points. On the economy, the people who
:36:40. > :36:44.always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.
:36:45. > :36:48.Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of
:36:49. > :36:53.Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They
:36:54. > :36:58.cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this
:36:59. > :37:02.nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.
:37:03. > :37:06.Why do 74% in your constituency say...
:37:07. > :37:11.That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,
:37:12. > :37:14.74%. People will feel more passionate
:37:15. > :37:18.about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They
:37:19. > :37:22.have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think
:37:23. > :37:29.the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we
:37:30. > :37:34.are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away
:37:35. > :37:40.for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most
:37:41. > :37:43.vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service
:37:44. > :37:48.funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye
:37:49. > :37:52.and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great
:37:53. > :37:57.idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.
:37:58. > :38:00.Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into
:38:01. > :38:06.politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It
:38:07. > :38:11.would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On
:38:12. > :38:16.balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its
:38:17. > :38:22.vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It
:38:23. > :38:24.isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling
:38:25. > :38:26.us how you will vote on June 23. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:27. > :38:36.in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:38:37. > :38:37.to Sunday Politics Scotland. the Western Isles voted no
:38:38. > :38:47.in the referendum on the EEC. As we approach the next vote
:38:48. > :38:50.on Europe, we've been back to find Former Labour leaders
:38:51. > :39:00.urge members to turn out We'll be asking John Edward,
:39:01. > :39:05.spokesperson for Scotland After the tragic death of Liam Fee -
:39:06. > :39:09.the children's commissioner says questions about
:39:10. > :39:10.the Named Persons Act But is there a genuine public
:39:11. > :39:19.interest at stake? When the UK last held
:39:20. > :39:21.a referendum on Europe - 41 years ago today -
:39:22. > :39:24.the Western Isles was one of only two regions to reject continued
:39:25. > :39:28.membership of what was then In other words, the Western Isles
:39:29. > :39:33.have never formally endorsed So what will they do
:39:34. > :39:38.on June the 23rd - Our political correspondent,
:39:39. > :39:59.Glenn Campbell, has been travelling Remote and rugged. These islands are
:40:00. > :40:04.on the very edge of the European Union. The Western Isles are a world
:40:05. > :40:09.away from the governments in Edinburgh and London, never mind the
:40:10. > :40:17.bureaucracy in Brussels. Here on the Atlantic coast, its next stop
:40:18. > :40:23.America. But that is not to see EU membership doesn't matter year. It
:40:24. > :40:29.really does. Traditional island industries like Harris to read,
:40:30. > :40:37.export worldwide, including too many countries across the EU. And at this
:40:38. > :40:42.mill they worry that a vote to leave could disrupt the single market. We
:40:43. > :40:46.have concerns about it. It is easy for us to trade with Europe and any
:40:47. > :40:52.constrictions are issues that might affect that is a concern for us as
:40:53. > :40:57.business and major employer in the Hebrides. How do you hope the vote
:40:58. > :41:01.business and major employer in the will go? We hope the vote will go
:41:02. > :41:08.over staying in Europe and staying in terms of what we have in terms of
:41:09. > :41:11.trade and the ability to trade with our partners neighbours in Europe.
:41:12. > :41:20.Phishing also depends on free trade across the EU, selling much of its
:41:21. > :41:23.catch to France and Spain. But in this harbour the fleet is smaller
:41:24. > :41:27.than it once was and to many here blame the EU's Common fisheries
:41:28. > :41:30.policy. This processor wants local fishermen freed from EU rules on
:41:31. > :41:35.when and where they can finish, what they can catch and what can be
:41:36. > :41:43.brought ashore. I think it would be better because the boats here would
:41:44. > :41:49.be allowed to land what the catch, as sensible phishing, rather than
:41:50. > :41:54.this EU regulation. There are people in Europe who do not know where we
:41:55. > :41:59.are, don't understand phishing, the same way we do not understand the
:42:00. > :42:04.phishing in the Mediterranean. How frustrating is that? Very
:42:05. > :42:07.frustrating when you see boats catching by catch and they have to
:42:08. > :42:12.dump it. You are on the key and you have to go to Peterhead to buy
:42:13. > :42:19.phishing get back to the islands. It does not add up but we have to do
:42:20. > :42:25.it. Euro scepticism is nothing new on these islands. It is almost a
:42:26. > :42:33.tradition. In the last referendum in 1975, Shetland and the Western Isles
:42:34. > :42:35.were the only two parts of the UK to say no to continued membership of
:42:36. > :42:42.what was then the European economic community. The vote here were 70 -
:42:43. > :42:47.30 against, so this is one of only two places in the country never to
:42:48. > :42:56.have endorsed the idea of European integration. While some things have
:42:57. > :43:01.hardly changed in the Hebrides, in the 41 years since that Fort, a
:43:02. > :43:07.great deal has moved on. You would struggle to find anywhere in the UK
:43:08. > :43:10.that has benefited more from EU investment than transport
:43:11. > :43:14.infrastructure. That is where much of the money to build the bridge
:43:15. > :43:21.connecting the island of Scalby to Harris came from. Even yet even in
:43:22. > :43:28.this tiny community, unease with the European Union is not hard to find.
:43:29. > :43:36.It is so alien to me. Things happening in Brussels. A whole lot
:43:37. > :43:40.of people in Germany and France and these sorts of placing deciding what
:43:41. > :43:46.is good to happen here. Is there a feeling in the Western Isles that
:43:47. > :43:52.people here do not like being told what to do by people from beyond the
:43:53. > :43:58.Western Isles? I think that is right. I think people don't
:43:59. > :44:04.generally. Independent mindedness is part of the character here. For folk
:44:05. > :44:09.-- Kumble says of the EU debate. Travelling through the islands,
:44:10. > :44:13.there is hard-headed calculation to. At the boat yard, this young man who
:44:14. > :44:21.makes his living from both fishing and crofting is weighing up what is
:44:22. > :44:26.best for him. I am torn on that at the moment. I have seen on social
:44:27. > :44:31.media fishermen like myself I was planning on voting out. But I come
:44:32. > :44:35.from a crofting heritage. You get a lot of EU subsidies which we might
:44:36. > :44:40.be losing out on. You cannot do that without getting your subsidies, how
:44:41. > :44:44.little or how big, they do help people. If this vote was tomorrow
:44:45. > :44:49.and you had to make up your mind, which we would you go? I would vote
:44:50. > :44:56.to stay in the European Union. The safer option, really. We have heard
:44:57. > :45:02.a lot on our travels down through the Western Isles about the roads,
:45:03. > :45:06.bridges, peers that have been built partly through European Union
:45:07. > :45:11.funding, that have made these islands so much more accessible and
:45:12. > :45:15.perhaps there is no better example than this, the Causeway, linking
:45:16. > :45:27.South Uist with the island of men escape. -- Eriskay. Investment will
:45:28. > :45:31.be harder to come by in future because it means the Highlands and
:45:32. > :45:38.Islands are competing for cash with more disadvantaged regions in
:45:39. > :45:42.Eastern Europe. On the Isle of Barra, this crofter and oyster
:45:43. > :45:47.Farmer believes the benefits of being in the EU, including subsidies
:45:48. > :45:52.under the Common agricultural caps that right policy cap, will I weigh
:45:53. > :45:58.any disadvantages. There is a lot more to be said of being in the EU
:45:59. > :46:03.than being out. In what way, the crofting side of me says, that is
:46:04. > :46:10.the cap, the benefits that come through that to be in -- me and the
:46:11. > :46:18.broader community. And the Oyster farming point of view which is more
:46:19. > :46:22.important, is a huge market, France, 200,000 oysters a year. It is
:46:23. > :46:28.important we have access to that market. The other side of is that
:46:29. > :46:31.there is a lot of benefit that comes to argument to through rural
:46:32. > :46:36.development which comes through EU funding. It is better for us because
:46:37. > :46:41.it comes back through there. This factory is the largest employer on
:46:42. > :46:46.this island and even though even -- much of the langoustine and scallops
:46:47. > :46:54.are sold to other EU countries, bosses here would prefer the UK to
:46:55. > :46:58.leave the union. From the fishermen's perspective, about. Why?
:46:59. > :47:03.They are not listening to the fisher men and what their needs are. There
:47:04. > :47:06.is someone in Brussels making decisions which impact on this
:47:07. > :47:12.fragile livelihood on this island and the islands around. They are
:47:13. > :47:17.confident new trading arrangements will be agreed without damage to
:47:18. > :47:22.their business. With the European market, what is stopping us selling
:47:23. > :47:26.to Europe? Who is going to say you cannot buy it? If a company in Spain
:47:27. > :47:31.says we can buy your product and would like to, who says we cannot
:47:32. > :47:35.sell that anyway? Why should we be governed by Europe dictating when it
:47:36. > :47:42.goes, how it goes. Whichever way the vote goes, it is clear as these
:47:43. > :47:47.Atlantic waters that the decision to stay in or to leave really matters
:47:48. > :47:52.here. The outcome will make a material difference to the way of
:47:53. > :47:57.life in this room or region of the EU, just as is it dead after the
:47:58. > :47:59.last referendum for decades ago. -- it did.
:48:00. > :48:01.Joining me now is John Edward, who is campaign spokesperson
:48:02. > :48:14.John Edward, if I am a supporter of Independence for Scotland, as many
:48:15. > :48:20.people are, almost half the population, and I want a second EU
:48:21. > :48:23.Referendum Bill Nicola Sturgeon intermittently and Alex Salmond
:48:24. > :48:33.incessantly telling you that if Scotland votes to Remain, but the UK
:48:34. > :48:41.votes to leave, surely I am dying for Britain to leave? I am not here
:48:42. > :48:49.to and search any political party. If you encourage Scottish people to
:48:50. > :48:52.leave with a vote of a second kind at some point, means we leave. If I
:48:53. > :48:57.am a supporter of independence, I might think Remain might win anyway.
:48:58. > :49:06.I might vote for relief because I want Britain to leave and I want
:49:07. > :49:11.Scotland to see. I want to help the grand total of leave. I do not want
:49:12. > :49:14.anyone to think that we will vote to leave anyway. Scotland has a big
:49:15. > :49:20.influence in the sport. The figures are close enough to tell us but
:49:21. > :49:26.Scotland votes Remain, that will make a significant impact to the
:49:27. > :49:32.vote. I asked you people who are saying I am not bothered. I want a
:49:33. > :49:36.second independence referendum. The vest vote from me is that Scotland
:49:37. > :49:43.votes to stay. There is no other question until June the 23rd. The
:49:44. > :49:47.only way you will get past it and get into a situation where Scotland
:49:48. > :49:52.is in a different case, is if you vote remain. During the first
:49:53. > :49:56.independence referendum, everyone from the president from the European
:49:57. > :50:03.Commission downwards said that Scotland would not be, an
:50:04. > :50:08.independent Scotland would not automatically be admitted into the
:50:09. > :50:11.EU. Some of the Nordic leaders said they do not want Scotland to become
:50:12. > :50:14.independent. Why should I want to vote for that lot? You are voting
:50:15. > :50:25.for the United Kingdom to stay as part of this voting block. What we
:50:26. > :50:32.have got to remember is that it is our voice in Europe that is
:50:33. > :50:34.involved. The vast majority of all trading partners within the EU and
:50:35. > :50:39.whether it would like us to stay part of the system, that seems to be
:50:40. > :50:45.a consensus that is building by the day. Is there a democratic deficit
:50:46. > :50:50.in the UK? There is to a certain extent because there is a perceived
:50:51. > :50:58.democratic deficits. If people do not think it is closer, then that is
:50:59. > :51:02.a deficit. No law, and that is something I have had to tackle
:51:03. > :51:05.across Holland, no law can be passed without your elected, British
:51:06. > :51:18.elected minister and UK elected MEPs passing it. In terms of democracy,
:51:19. > :51:19.bills are drafted, bills are put out to public consultation, they go
:51:20. > :51:30.through Parliamentary committees. After the last European elections,
:51:31. > :51:35.it was said that in fact we had been voting on whether John Claude Yunker
:51:36. > :51:41.or his opponent should become president of the European
:51:42. > :51:47.Commission. Can you just remind us of which party won that election?
:51:48. > :51:53.There is not one political party. There are 303 political parties. The
:51:54. > :52:01.centre-right party won, but that is as narrow definition as it gets. Not
:52:02. > :52:04.many Scottish people care about that and that is my point. If people
:52:05. > :52:09.many Scottish people care about that perceive it to be far-away... We
:52:10. > :52:15.were told boss to mislead, as it were that we were voting for her
:52:16. > :52:22.president of the European Commission and John Claude Yunker became
:52:23. > :52:29.president... The member states said we will respect the majority vote in
:52:30. > :52:38.the European union elections in terms of appointing a president and
:52:39. > :52:46.they took that and that is why he became president. I am sure some
:52:47. > :52:58.people in Scotland followed the events of Mr Yunker as things carry
:52:59. > :53:05.but... He is only a head of civil service. He is not a president or a
:53:06. > :53:11.Prime Minister. Let's not told European Parliament to a stronger
:53:12. > :53:15.standing. But it is not just in Britain. No one identifies with the
:53:16. > :53:17.European Union as a democratic entity. Surely much better to go
:53:18. > :53:24.back to having the British Parliament and Scottish Parliament
:53:25. > :53:27.as our democracy? They are our sovereign bodies and will always be.
:53:28. > :53:31.The European Union is not and never will be. It is an entirely different
:53:32. > :53:35.system in world politics, I will admit, but we have political control
:53:36. > :53:40.United Nations. Have decided to save United Nations. Have decided to save
:53:41. > :53:45.-- share our power into it to get the best out of it. Let's take an
:53:46. > :53:48.example. You make the point, correctly, that the commission can
:53:49. > :53:53.initiate legislation but it has to be approved by member states. Take
:53:54. > :53:56.the working Time directive. I know a lot of people in Scotland would be
:53:57. > :54:02.in favour of this because they think it gives them protection but whether
:54:03. > :54:08.you are in favour of it or not, it was passed despite the protest of
:54:09. > :54:15.British government, the European Commission then said it was health
:54:16. > :54:18.and safety legislation, meaning that the European Court of Justice could
:54:19. > :54:21.impose it on Britain, even though the elected government of Britain at
:54:22. > :54:26.that time did not want anything to do with it. In what even tortured
:54:27. > :54:32.European sense cannot be said to be democratic? Two things. One, the
:54:33. > :54:45.European Court of justice can only act when it's given me the -- given
:54:46. > :54:48.the possibility of doing so. Take, you can opt out of the working Time
:54:49. > :54:54.directive and I know that because I did sign one a view months ago. But
:54:55. > :55:02.that is an individual opt out. This was about opting out of the whole
:55:03. > :55:04.thing and it was imposed upon us. It was not imposed. It was challenged
:55:05. > :55:12.in court just as the Scottish whiskey industry challenged in
:55:13. > :55:16.court. This was opposed by British government and yet it became law.
:55:17. > :55:23.Nonetheless, individuals can opt out as I have. That is not the point. We
:55:24. > :55:26.could not opt out as a country. It went through the procedures of
:55:27. > :55:31.Parliamentary scrutiny, two sets of votes. It is exactly as laws go
:55:32. > :55:40.through Holyrood and Parliament. Not everyone agrees with those evil but
:55:41. > :55:51.to suggest that they have total power, it can only act when we allow
:55:52. > :55:56.them to. We can still opt out. You are an individual -- you are
:55:57. > :56:05.An opt out if they opt out will stop An opt out if they opt out will stop
:56:06. > :56:09.-- an opt out is an opt out. Let's leave it there. Politicians have
:56:10. > :56:13.said for a long time, we will not leave it there. Politicians have
:56:14. > :56:21.have anything to do with Schengen, with the new refugees act, when it
:56:22. > :56:24.comes to a referendum and they say, you know this thing we've been
:56:25. > :56:30.standing up to four decades is terrific and we want you to vote for
:56:31. > :56:33.it, don't they have a problem? Absolutely and it has been a
:56:34. > :56:36.perennial problem and that is why leave is able to go out and say
:56:37. > :56:40.things about migration and the NHS which simply bear no relation to
:56:41. > :56:44.reality because we, the country which have signed the treaty is, we
:56:45. > :56:49.the one with the sovereign power in the EU, have refused to make the
:56:50. > :56:53.case to our people as to why we are in their in the first place. That is
:56:54. > :56:58.a problem we have to overcome. I have spent as much time over the
:56:59. > :57:01.last four months explaining what the European union doesn't do as saying
:57:02. > :57:07.what it does do. We have to believe that it has powers that are way
:57:08. > :57:08.beyond what it actually has... British governments have not helped
:57:09. > :57:17.you? No, but you will find other British governments have not helped
:57:18. > :57:23.European country's government explaining the same thing. It is not
:57:24. > :57:27.Brussels. Brussels is 28 member states and the power is within
:57:28. > :57:33.those, not in Brussels. Had he been helped with some of the rhetoric by
:57:34. > :57:42.the remaining side? -- have you been helped? You would think the world
:57:43. > :57:46.was going to end if we left the European Union. It is perfectly
:57:47. > :57:50.feasible for an independent Britain to negotiate traders with other
:57:51. > :57:54.European countries. It would not be catastrophic. You could argue that
:57:55. > :57:58.it may be stronger one way or the other but the alarmist rhetoric is
:57:59. > :58:03.out of control, isn't it? I think the scale of it and expecting people
:58:04. > :58:10.to judge whether an enormous figure from the IMF is one thing but we are
:58:11. > :58:17.making a case on what we know to be true. We know there are risks in
:58:18. > :58:21.leaving. The other side are making cases based on we don't know what.
:58:22. > :58:27.There is no white Paper. We still have a veto over things in Europe
:58:28. > :58:35.and discovering pots of money like bumblebees go round flowers is...
:58:36. > :58:42.There is a reasonable economic case to say Britain could do well. I have
:58:43. > :58:46.never said there is not some case but I genuinely believe we have
:58:47. > :58:51.become healthier, wealthier, better educated as being part of the
:58:52. > :58:54.European Union and we would be crazy to get rid of that. We will have
:58:55. > :58:56.European Union and we would be crazy leave it there. Thank you.
:58:57. > :58:58.The government's flagship Named Persons policy came under
:58:59. > :59:00.fire again this week, following the conviction of Rachel
:59:01. > :59:03.and Nyomi Fee for the murder of Rachel's two-year-old son Liam.
:59:04. > :59:06.He was killed at the family's home in Fife, one of the areas
:59:07. > :59:08.in Scotland which is piloting a similar initiative.
:59:09. > :59:11.A serious case review has been announced to look into the exact
:59:12. > :59:12.circumstances surrounding the toddler's death,
:59:13. > :59:14.but questions about whether he had a single-point-of-contact worker
:59:15. > :59:18.have been met with accusations of political posturing.
:59:19. > :59:20.A short while ago, I spoke to the Children's Commissioner
:59:21. > :59:28.Tam Baillie, who has written to a newspaper about this issue.
:59:29. > :59:37.The Liam Fee case, obviously a very tragic case. You wrote an article in
:59:38. > :59:45.the Sunday Times about it today. The third sentence of that article says,
:59:46. > :59:51.Liam's death has been used by some as the furthering a campaign about
:59:52. > :59:54.the Named Persons Act and it is unforgivable because the tragic loss
:59:55. > :59:59.of a child should be above the political posturing. What do you
:00:00. > :00:04.mean? There are two reasons. First of all, Liam Fee's death is an
:00:05. > :00:07.absolute tragedy and it affects the individuals involved, the
:00:08. > :00:14.communities and, indeed, the whole workforce that is involved in that.
:00:15. > :00:17.The sad fact is, no child protection services in the world can offer
:00:18. > :00:21.The sad fact is, no child protection assurances that it will be
:00:22. > :00:31.fail-safe. That is the first thing. This is a real tragedy. The second
:00:32. > :00:36.thing is the Named Persons Act service and that is a low-level,
:00:37. > :00:40.early warning system for when things are at an early stage of going wrong
:00:41. > :00:45.in a child's life and I can't contact up -- comment on the details
:00:46. > :00:50.of the Liam Fee's case but we do know this was a Charlton known to
:00:51. > :00:58.social workers. That puts that incident way beyond normal case... I
:00:59. > :01:04.do take your point but what about the facts of this case? Fife was a
:01:05. > :01:12.pilot area for the scheme, wasn't it? Regardless of whether Liam Fee
:01:13. > :01:18.had a named person or not, I would say this was a child who was in a
:01:19. > :01:23.system where it was obvious to people that he was way beyond that
:01:24. > :01:26.early warning, early intervention. I get the point, but why don't you
:01:27. > :01:35.know? I can't comment on the details get the point, but why don't you
:01:36. > :01:38.of the case. You could have contacted Fife Council and asked
:01:39. > :01:45.what the arrangements were in place? It was not my job to look into that.
:01:46. > :01:49.There is a significant case review and I said in the article, we have
:01:50. > :01:52.to leave the people in the significant case review to look at
:01:53. > :01:59.the totality of actions taken to identify where the errors were made
:02:00. > :02:03.in terms of the case. Don't you think before you wrote an article in
:02:04. > :02:08.a national newspaper saying people were indulging in political
:02:09. > :02:11.posturing and that their behaviour was unforgivable, as the Children's
:02:12. > :02:15.Commissioner for Scotland, it might have been a good idea for you to
:02:16. > :02:19.contact Fife Council and the Scottish Government and ascertain
:02:20. > :02:26.the facts of the case? Even if there is a named person for Liam Fee, that
:02:27. > :02:30.really is not the point in terms of that child being known to social
:02:31. > :02:36.workers. That means they should have been systems in place to ensure the
:02:37. > :02:42.safety of that child rather than the named person. I understand that.
:02:43. > :02:48.John Sweeney the other day said there was a person, a point of
:02:49. > :02:55.contact, but not in terms of the legislation. That is what he said.
:02:56. > :02:58.Do you know what that means? I presume that he is saying there was
:02:59. > :03:01.a person who was a point of contact somewhere with regard to the
:03:02. > :03:09.handling of the child protection case. I can't comment on whether or
:03:10. > :03:14.not... Again, I would put it to you, many people watching this would say,
:03:15. > :03:17.hang on a minute. This guy is the Children's Commissioner for
:03:18. > :03:21.Scotland. He is writing articles in national newspapers condemning
:03:22. > :03:25.people for asking questions apropos of this case about the Named Persons
:03:26. > :03:31.Act and he hasn't even bothered to find out what the facts are. I am
:03:32. > :03:37.saying that it is wrong for us to link the named person with instances
:03:38. > :03:44.of children who are within the system and whether there are
:03:45. > :03:48.failings there or not. That is quite separate from those children who are
:03:49. > :03:51.already identified with serious concerns and we will find from the
:03:52. > :03:55.significant case review as to where those failings -- whether those
:03:56. > :04:02.failings took place in this instance. The main point is that
:04:03. > :04:07.this scheme is being piloted in places like the Highlands, it is
:04:08. > :04:11.being piloted in Fife will stop if there was a named person in this
:04:12. > :04:15.case, even a named person but not in terms of the legislation, as John
:04:16. > :04:20.Sweeney put it, quite clearly it has not worked. A named person, as I
:04:21. > :04:25.said earlier, is not supposed to be dealing with those children already
:04:26. > :04:30.identified as being of serious concern, where they should be a plan
:04:31. > :04:34.around it, where a number of different agencies should be around
:04:35. > :04:38.it. Again, I accept your point that it might not be sticky relevant in
:04:39. > :04:45.terms of this case, because this child was known to do that -- to
:04:46. > :04:48.children services, but what's at stake here is a flagship policy of
:04:49. > :04:51.children services, but what's at the Scottish Government and I fail
:04:52. > :04:57.to understand why, first of all, you haven't tried to find out what is
:04:58. > :04:59.actually happening here and secondly why it is simply not relevant to
:05:00. > :05:02.talk about the named person. He why it is simply not relevant to
:05:03. > :05:05.described people who have been talking about this is behaving
:05:06. > :05:14.unforgivably. What on earth do you mean? In the first instance, it has
:05:15. > :05:17.to be left to the serious case review to establish the facts of the
:05:18. > :05:21.case. I make that point in the article. The second one is that we
:05:22. > :05:26.know, and I repeat, the named person is not designed to try to assist
:05:27. > :05:33.those children where we are ready now there is another very serious
:05:34. > :05:39.concerns. There should be vigilant in terms of protecting those
:05:40. > :05:42.children or that child. If you had contacted Fife Council and said, I
:05:43. > :05:44.want to know exactly what happened here, quite rightly they would
:05:45. > :05:48.want to know exactly what happened said, no, there is a significant
:05:49. > :05:54.case review, and you would have agreed with them, but if at the --
:05:55. > :06:00.but if as the Children's Commissioner you had said, can you
:06:01. > :06:04.just tell me what the situation was with the named person, because I am
:06:05. > :06:11.not prejudging the review. Was there with the named person, because I am
:06:12. > :06:16.a named person in this case? Was it the full service or was it a limited
:06:17. > :06:20.version of it, whatever that means? But you don't seem to have done
:06:21. > :06:24.either of those things. As I have already said, in this instance, the
:06:25. > :06:27.circumstances, the level of protection that is required, the
:06:28. > :06:31.level of service that this child required, is way beyond that which
:06:32. > :06:35.would be made available under the Named Persons Act. The point I'm
:06:36. > :06:39.getting at is lack of transparency. If this is a flagship scheme, why
:06:40. > :06:41.can't the government say, this is what the situation was and that is
:06:42. > :06:53.that? There has been a lot of expectation
:06:54. > :06:57.placed on and they named personally able to deal with all the instances
:06:58. > :07:04.of concerns around children. The reason I have written the article is
:07:05. > :07:09.that is not the case. I still do not understand who is behaving
:07:10. > :07:16.unforgivably? I think people have been linking the named person
:07:17. > :07:23.somehow with the terrible tragedy of... It is reasonable. There has
:07:24. > :07:28.been no direct link made with named person and Liam Fee. The named
:07:29. > :07:32.person is an early intervention, it is picking up children at an early
:07:33. > :07:38.stage when there are concerns around children, rather than those children
:07:39. > :07:43.we have to be intervening in the terms of child intervention. Some
:07:44. > :07:50.charities have claimed that the Named Persons Act has been a success
:07:51. > :07:55.in their region. Given this case, how are the public men to judge how
:07:56. > :08:05.these pilot schemes are a success or not? There is an expectation about
:08:06. > :08:11.what the named person's service is meant to do. It is an early pick-up,
:08:12. > :08:18.we are concerned about children... How can we as a public know it is a
:08:19. > :08:22.success or not? The government need to present the expectations of Named
:08:23. > :08:27.Persons Act, what it will do. We have concerns about children who we
:08:28. > :08:32.do not pick up early enough and problems that exacerbate. If we get
:08:33. > :08:37.an early enough, we can support children and families at that stage.
:08:38. > :08:39.Thank you very much, Tam Baillie. It's time to review the week
:08:40. > :08:42.and to look ahead to what's coming I'm joined by Lynsey Bewes,
:08:43. > :08:46.political reporter for the Press Association,
:08:47. > :09:00.and by Kevin McKenna, Europe. Lindsay, are you getting
:09:01. > :09:05.excited? We have seemed to have reached levels of massive stadium
:09:06. > :09:14.over the European question this morning, everyone is wading in, from
:09:15. > :09:17.Boris Johnson and John Major. It is claimed with mixed with counterclaim
:09:18. > :09:21.as we saw and the Scottish referendum. I think the public are
:09:22. > :09:25.going to be pretty fed up of hearing these claims from either side and
:09:26. > :09:32.not getting facts, which we keep hearing they are looking for, shades
:09:33. > :09:35.of the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill? Kevin, are you
:09:36. > :09:42.excited about this? I am trying to be. I was listening very closely to
:09:43. > :09:46.John Prescott earlier in the first part of the programme. Speaking
:09:47. > :09:52.about the widespread perception, perhaps in the Labour Party, that
:09:53. > :09:55.this is a blue on blue debate and struggle. The passion and fervour
:09:56. > :10:03.and the mudslinging and the civil war that is going inside the
:10:04. > :10:07.Conservative Party makes you think that Will they recover from this?
:10:08. > :10:13.Will David Cameron be a casualty? But what is the debate for the rest
:10:14. > :10:17.of us. John Prescott is right to say that Labour people need to get in
:10:18. > :10:27.because we need people in the Labour Party to have a leg in this fight
:10:28. > :10:29.and people in the SNP. If you are a big supporter of Scottish
:10:30. > :10:38.independence, it is not clear what side... What side your dog should be
:10:39. > :10:42.barking on. I will be interested to see the debate between Nicola
:10:43. > :10:50.Sturgeon and Michael. The first question should be why you using the
:10:51. > :10:52.same questions to stay in Europe when you were opposing the
:10:53. > :10:57.independence referendum. That is why I wonder why the SNP are choosing to
:10:58. > :11:04.get so involved. If I was them I would be distancing myself, let them
:11:05. > :11:10.get on with it. I am not saying the SNP are playing a double game. I
:11:11. > :11:16.think they would say they are not. But there is a double game here. If
:11:17. > :11:21.you really want and India reft two, according to what the leadership of
:11:22. > :11:23.the SNP is in, your best result would be Britain out of the European
:11:24. > :11:28.Union and Scotland footing to stay. Union and Scotland footing to stay.
:11:29. > :11:34.-- independence referendum two. Nicola Sturgeon has said that if we
:11:35. > :11:39.have this dragging Scotland out of the EU in this Ford, there will be
:11:40. > :11:44.she is saying a second vote on independence. She is kind of keeping
:11:45. > :11:49.the party supporters happy there. But she is also sing she does not
:11:50. > :11:52.want to see that happen. I think in a lot of ways Nicola Sturgeon does
:11:53. > :11:58.not want to see that happen because the prospect of fighting for another
:11:59. > :12:02.referendum, and vote for Scottish independence is made harder in some
:12:03. > :12:08.ways by the UK leaving the EU. There are a whole host of other questions
:12:09. > :12:15.which have not been addressed about that, currency, EU membership is
:12:16. > :12:31.putting a whole different context. My main issue with independence for
:12:32. > :12:37.Scotland, if I want, IndyRef two, how do I vote? Is that second
:12:38. > :12:43.referendum going to be an easy referendum to win when all those
:12:44. > :12:46.issues come back and they are within a different context. You could say
:12:47. > :12:54.that that will be a tricky vote for Nicola Sturgeon to secure. My
:12:55. > :12:59.hypothetical person is good to say, forget that, I want a second
:13:00. > :13:03.independence referendum, which way should I vote? I am hearing this
:13:04. > :13:08.from everybody who has got an nationalist heart. Their instincts
:13:09. > :13:14.are saying I want to stay in because this will guarantee our employment
:13:15. > :13:19.rights, a rates of equality, or protections at work. But I am also
:13:20. > :13:25.passionate about having Scottish independence. Nicola Sturgeon and
:13:26. > :13:29.Alex Salmond have said that Scotland footing to stay in and the rest of
:13:30. > :13:36.the UK voting to stay out is a valid trigger. So tactically, maybe I
:13:37. > :13:43.should be voting to come out of Europe. However, if the vote overall
:13:44. > :13:47.is very, very close, then SNP supporters who are thinking of that,
:13:48. > :13:49.may have to wonder what their wish, be fearful of what they are wishing
:13:50. > :13:55.for. We will have to leave it there. I'll be back at the
:13:56. > :14:00.same time next week.