:00:15. > :00:21.Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has
:00:22. > :00:26.been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour
:00:27. > :00:31.this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't
:00:32. > :00:36.going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of
:00:37. > :00:44.any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What
:00:45. > :00:51.does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will
:00:52. > :00:56.replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we
:00:57. > :01:02.have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the
:01:03. > :01:11.referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The
:01:12. > :01:19.country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition
:01:20. > :01:21.to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you
:01:22. > :02:04.cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and
:02:05. > :02:08.listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls
:02:09. > :02:37.saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and
:02:38. > :02:43.And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People
:02:44. > :02:47.who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the
:02:48. > :02:52.Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can
:02:53. > :02:56.hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of
:02:57. > :03:01.the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not
:03:02. > :03:06.be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour
:03:07. > :03:11.voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or
:03:12. > :03:15.the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we
:03:16. > :03:20.should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.
:03:21. > :03:25.Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We
:03:26. > :03:29.did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It
:03:30. > :03:35.does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union
:03:36. > :03:37.will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every
:03:38. > :03:44.electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the
:03:45. > :03:50.referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party
:03:51. > :03:54.political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters
:03:55. > :04:01.and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He
:04:02. > :04:06.delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young
:04:07. > :04:09.people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a
:04:10. > :04:14.success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I
:04:15. > :04:20.have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came
:04:21. > :04:24.on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we
:04:25. > :04:29.need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in
:04:30. > :04:33.that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to
:04:34. > :04:37.the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to
:04:38. > :04:41.the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and
:04:42. > :04:45.listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left
:04:46. > :04:49.behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.
:04:50. > :04:56.Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,
:04:57. > :05:00.maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but
:05:01. > :05:05.within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we
:05:06. > :05:08.want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be
:05:09. > :05:13.doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in
:05:14. > :05:16.particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be
:05:17. > :05:21.hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be
:05:22. > :05:25.able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European
:05:26. > :05:30.leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by
:05:31. > :05:34.Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this
:05:35. > :05:37.government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who
:05:38. > :05:42.are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning
:05:43. > :05:45.and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are
:05:46. > :05:50.at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that
:05:51. > :05:54.we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to
:05:55. > :05:58.provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in
:05:59. > :06:04.overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some
:06:05. > :06:10.people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.
:06:11. > :06:14.I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands
:06:15. > :06:20.for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the
:06:21. > :06:25.party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few
:06:26. > :06:30.months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need
:06:31. > :06:36.to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...
:06:37. > :06:44.He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would
:06:45. > :06:48.you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his
:06:49. > :06:53.sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.
:06:54. > :07:01.Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on
:07:02. > :07:06.-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.
:07:07. > :07:10.His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I
:07:11. > :07:19.think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every
:07:20. > :07:23.electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at
:07:24. > :07:25.the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part
:07:26. > :07:27.of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support
:07:28. > :07:35.for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has
:07:36. > :07:40.not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me
:07:41. > :07:46.about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is
:07:47. > :07:51.part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been
:07:52. > :07:56.until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is
:07:57. > :08:03.disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in
:08:04. > :08:07.the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going
:08:08. > :08:12.to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best
:08:13. > :08:18.political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for
:08:19. > :08:23.another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does
:08:24. > :08:26.not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would
:08:27. > :08:31.stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.
:08:32. > :08:36.You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is
:08:37. > :08:42.not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your
:08:43. > :08:48.colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would
:08:49. > :08:54.not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do
:08:55. > :08:58.it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder
:08:59. > :09:05.where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with
:09:06. > :09:10.us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming
:09:11. > :09:14.live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,
:09:15. > :09:19.what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum
:09:20. > :09:22.result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.
:09:23. > :09:31.Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have
:09:32. > :09:36.spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,
:09:37. > :09:39.decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,
:09:40. > :09:47.against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I
:09:48. > :09:52.can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and
:09:53. > :09:56.months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the
:09:57. > :10:07.captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well
:10:08. > :10:10.prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England
:10:11. > :10:14.have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I
:10:15. > :10:22.have remained in close contact, including through the night at this
:10:23. > :10:28.point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is
:10:29. > :10:31.politically. There is no way of predicting all the political
:10:32. > :10:40.consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a
:10:41. > :10:45.significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a
:10:46. > :10:50.statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must
:10:51. > :10:56.be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed
:10:57. > :11:01.everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not
:11:02. > :11:06.everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man
:11:07. > :11:12.who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a
:11:13. > :11:15.conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this
:11:16. > :11:22.does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less
:11:23. > :11:28.united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak
:11:29. > :11:32.to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did
:11:33. > :11:38.not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may
:11:39. > :11:43.feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or
:11:44. > :11:47.any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever
:11:48. > :11:51.becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing
:11:52. > :11:55.with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night
:11:56. > :12:01.before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not
:12:02. > :12:06.really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.
:12:07. > :12:10.I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I
:12:11. > :12:16.have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,
:12:17. > :12:21.Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never
:12:22. > :12:26.seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where
:12:27. > :12:30.we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this
:12:31. > :12:35.the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose
:12:36. > :12:39.it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make
:12:40. > :12:43.any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we
:12:44. > :12:47.have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule
:12:48. > :12:51.anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of
:12:52. > :12:56.reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in
:12:57. > :13:02.what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final
:13:03. > :13:06.two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of
:13:07. > :13:10.my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.
:13:11. > :13:15.Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.
:13:16. > :13:19.They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922
:13:20. > :13:23.Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The
:13:24. > :13:25.Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy
:13:26. > :13:42.Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could
:13:43. > :13:44.be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when
:13:45. > :13:47.David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question
:13:48. > :13:50.by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and
:13:51. > :13:52.there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the
:13:53. > :13:55.prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,
:13:56. > :14:02.and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of
:14:03. > :14:06.reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the
:14:07. > :14:12.ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we
:14:13. > :14:16.have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is
:14:17. > :14:19.critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and
:14:20. > :14:26.answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership
:14:27. > :14:29.contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.
:14:30. > :14:34.APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the
:14:35. > :14:37.length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were
:14:38. > :14:43.difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also
:14:44. > :14:47.pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better
:14:48. > :14:52.levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the
:14:53. > :14:55.European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign
:14:56. > :15:01.Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans
:15:02. > :15:04.emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow
:15:05. > :15:09.Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to
:15:10. > :15:14.have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the
:15:15. > :15:17.referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same
:15:18. > :15:23.on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of
:15:24. > :15:28.the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of
:15:29. > :15:32.the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.
:15:33. > :15:36.Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with
:15:37. > :15:43.Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow
:15:44. > :15:47.Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy
:15:48. > :15:51.Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for
:15:52. > :15:55.the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism
:15:56. > :16:00.among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been
:16:01. > :16:04.brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy
:16:05. > :16:09.Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune
:16:10. > :16:16.with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are
:16:17. > :16:20.very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive
:16:21. > :16:23.committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there
:16:24. > :16:26.is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy
:16:27. > :16:32.Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn
:16:33. > :16:36.is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his
:16:37. > :16:43.Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he
:16:44. > :16:46.fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a
:16:47. > :16:50.scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the
:16:51. > :16:54.second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the
:16:55. > :16:59.numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to
:17:00. > :17:04.remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken
:17:05. > :17:09.it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it
:17:10. > :17:14.in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the
:17:15. > :17:20.same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry
:17:21. > :17:23.is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our
:17:24. > :17:29.disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a
:17:30. > :17:32.massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell
:17:33. > :17:36.says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow
:17:37. > :17:43.Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly
:17:44. > :17:49.Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is
:17:50. > :17:53.Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.
:17:54. > :17:58.He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his
:17:59. > :18:02.mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to
:18:03. > :18:06.wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any
:18:07. > :18:10.other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest
:18:11. > :18:15.Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key
:18:16. > :18:20.question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next
:18:21. > :18:26.Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?
:18:27. > :18:32.I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see
:18:33. > :18:37.someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron
:18:38. > :18:42.did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really
:18:43. > :18:45.is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is
:18:46. > :18:53.seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was
:18:54. > :18:58.the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm
:18:59. > :19:04.sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still
:19:05. > :19:09.interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so
:19:10. > :19:12.horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to
:19:13. > :19:17.leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a
:19:18. > :19:22.bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.
:19:23. > :19:26.I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all
:19:27. > :19:31.have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same
:19:32. > :19:38.page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always
:19:39. > :19:41.thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated
:19:42. > :19:45.timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am
:19:46. > :19:50.having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is
:19:51. > :19:53.strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on
:19:54. > :19:58.manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,
:19:59. > :20:03.we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong
:20:04. > :20:10.signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if
:20:11. > :20:17.it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does
:20:18. > :20:22.he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the
:20:23. > :20:25.members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly
:20:26. > :20:31.popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a
:20:32. > :20:34.national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time
:20:35. > :20:39.of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.
:20:40. > :20:40.We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going
:20:41. > :20:43.to happen. You may currently be
:20:44. > :20:45.unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half
:20:46. > :20:49.the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the
:20:50. > :20:58.Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that
:20:59. > :21:00.unlocks our membership of the European Union,
:21:01. > :21:03.chances are we will all become very familiar with it over
:21:04. > :21:05.the next months and years. The UK will be the first country
:21:06. > :21:09.to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately
:21:10. > :21:11.vague so that each member state can decide how
:21:12. > :21:16.and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,
:21:17. > :21:18.it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has
:21:19. > :21:23.effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership
:21:24. > :21:27.contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,
:21:28. > :21:30.the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts
:21:31. > :21:35.in the European Commission. What will be the substance
:21:36. > :21:41.of the talks? Our budget contributions will be
:21:42. > :21:43.discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats
:21:44. > :21:48.and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU
:21:49. > :21:52.financial programmes in the UK are phased out,
:21:53. > :21:55.and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights
:21:56. > :21:57.conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have
:21:58. > :22:04.to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,
:22:05. > :22:06.and will require ratification from each of the 27
:22:07. > :22:12.national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been
:22:13. > :22:15.hammered out, it will be put to the European Council
:22:16. > :22:18.and will need support from a qualified majority,
:22:19. > :22:22.at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,
:22:23. > :22:29.it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,
:22:30. > :22:35.the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote
:22:36. > :22:45.of the council. There we are, much more of that to
:22:46. > :22:49.come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former
:22:50. > :22:52.Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted
:22:53. > :22:55.Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union
:22:56. > :23:06.for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out
:23:07. > :23:12.of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we
:23:13. > :23:16.have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the
:23:17. > :23:21.consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe
:23:22. > :23:24.will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this
:23:25. > :23:29.process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three
:23:30. > :23:32.months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in
:23:33. > :23:37.shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think
:23:38. > :23:42.it is important for the country to see what are the actual
:23:43. > :23:47.consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options
:23:48. > :23:53.are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including
:23:54. > :23:58.President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just
:23:59. > :24:05.apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What
:24:06. > :24:08.do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the
:24:09. > :24:14.result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain
:24:15. > :24:17.to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got
:24:18. > :24:22.to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela
:24:23. > :24:30.Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she
:24:31. > :24:36.has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,
:24:37. > :24:40.and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best
:24:41. > :24:43.for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that
:24:44. > :24:54.relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre
:24:55. > :24:59.these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also
:25:00. > :25:01.have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what
:25:02. > :25:07.have a big responsibility to help is going to be an agonising and
:25:08. > :25:12.highly complicated process of defining a new relationship with
:25:13. > :25:16.Europe. The odd thing about this referendum, when you think about it,
:25:17. > :25:20.it's like saying to someone, right, you are going to swap your house.
:25:21. > :25:28.You know where you live but you will swap it for another house. And right
:25:29. > :25:32.now, we can give you two people, you cannot see that the house but we can
:25:33. > :25:36.give you two people who tell you what they think. One says this house
:25:37. > :25:40.will be fantastic, great for you, and the other says this house is
:25:41. > :25:45.structurally on sound, you will hate it. We have taken the decision to
:25:46. > :25:49.swap homes, if you like, without having seen what the other thing
:25:50. > :25:54.looks like. Over this period of time, we will see what it looks
:25:55. > :25:59.like. We will then get right into the detail because the detail
:26:00. > :26:03.matters. For example financial services, if we don't have the EU
:26:04. > :26:07.passport for our financial services, what does that mean for the City of
:26:08. > :26:13.London? You could get thousands of jobs going so how do you preserve
:26:14. > :26:18.it? What does the car industry do? We have hundreds of thousands of
:26:19. > :26:23.jobs dependent on it. I think the detail will really matter and we
:26:24. > :26:26.need to take our time over this so that the country also carries on
:26:27. > :26:31.being engaged in a debate about what this really means. But what would
:26:32. > :26:35.you advise Boris Johnson and Michael Gove to go for in terms of the
:26:36. > :26:40.overall relationship? The details will take a long while, I understand
:26:41. > :26:45.that, but broadly what kind of relationship would you advise them
:26:46. > :26:50.to have going forward? I think one that preserves as much as we can of
:26:51. > :26:54.our access to the market in Europe because that is essential, I mean
:26:55. > :27:00.half of our trade is with Europe, but secondly which allows us at
:27:01. > :27:04.least some decisions that will be made that have a direct bearing on
:27:05. > :27:09.Britain. One of the things that so curious about this whole process is
:27:10. > :27:14.that we are an independent country, we are an independent country now. I
:27:15. > :27:17.say to people, I think the ten years I had as by Minister, I cannot think
:27:18. > :27:23.of a single decision that Europe said to me I had to make or I
:27:24. > :27:26.couldn't make other than those to do with Europe specifically. We will
:27:27. > :27:30.now be in this new relationship with Europe, we have got to work out what
:27:31. > :27:34.is in our interests. We have got to understand something as well, I
:27:35. > :27:42.think it is very important about where the country is today. I think
:27:43. > :27:47.it is deeply divided. The Leave camp won, but 48% voted Remain. I think
:27:48. > :27:52.there was a lot of dismay and anger among that 48%. I think a lot of
:27:53. > :27:56.young people particularly feel their future has been changed in a way
:27:57. > :28:01.they profoundly disagree with. And so, if there is a desire in the
:28:02. > :28:06.Leave camp to try to bring the country back together, if there is a
:28:07. > :28:10.maturity there in the politics of Leave, we have also got to show a
:28:11. > :28:14.majority for the politics of Remain and work out how we do this best for
:28:15. > :28:21.the country but that argues for a negotiating process which allows the
:28:22. > :28:29.country at every stage to see, this is the reality. It is no longer
:28:30. > :28:34.about claims and counterclaims. Do you rule out another referendum? As
:28:35. > :28:42.I'm looking at it here, I can't see how we would do that. You will have
:28:43. > :28:46.a reality to test yourself against. For example, in the last few days
:28:47. > :28:51.there has been this vast crash in the financial markets, something
:28:52. > :28:54.like $3 trillion has been wiped out financial markets globally, the
:28:55. > :28:59.pound has obviously fallen dramatically, but maybe studies
:29:00. > :29:04.itself in the days to come. The British people and the Europeans
:29:05. > :29:08.need to see that reality. Maybe as we get into it, there are companies
:29:09. > :29:15.that say, we are perfectly happy, we can live with the new arrangement,
:29:16. > :29:19.others say, we can't. If we finally see the structure, what is in the
:29:20. > :29:26.new house, we see the house we will now move into outside the EU, should
:29:27. > :29:29.that go for a referendum? As I say, I cannot see how you would go
:29:30. > :29:32.through the mechanics of another referendum now, but on the other
:29:33. > :29:36.hand there will be a lot of people in the country that say, let's have
:29:37. > :29:44.a look at this. Parliament will want to look at it. Remember, the one
:29:45. > :29:48.thing, again what was strange and unsatisfactory about the referendum
:29:49. > :29:52.campaign is the devil really is in the detail with this. I was trying
:29:53. > :29:56.to say to people, if you are deciding whether to join the
:29:57. > :30:00.European Union, that is one kind of debate, but when you are deciding
:30:01. > :30:05.whether to leave after four decades of membership, with intricate
:30:06. > :30:09.relationships, we need to see that. We need to see for example who will
:30:10. > :30:14.win that battle in French politics between those who say the border
:30:15. > :30:21.should go back to Dover now or the border will stay in Calais. All of
:30:22. > :30:26.these things I think are low us now to be, now we are going to see the
:30:27. > :30:30.new home, now we will look at it and test it, we will be going round it,
:30:31. > :30:36.we will be seeing what it really means. And so in a sense, what I'm
:30:37. > :30:41.saying is we have a divided country but I think there is the possibility
:30:42. > :30:45.of bringing people back together if we are sensible about it and don't
:30:46. > :30:54.let our dismay on either side of this argument get the better of our
:30:55. > :30:58.judgment. Why did Remain lose? I don't think that is very hard to
:30:59. > :31:02.work out. You could buy the wake of this type of referendum anywhere in
:31:03. > :31:07.Europe at the moment and you would have the potential for the result to
:31:08. > :31:10.be the same. One of the things I think is important for us as we go
:31:11. > :31:20.into this European negotiation, it is Europe can take one of two views.
:31:21. > :31:23.They can say, get out as fast as possible. The other thing they could
:31:24. > :31:29.do and maybe they should do when they reflect about it, if we
:31:30. > :31:33.approach this negotiation sensibly, is to think the British had their
:31:34. > :31:37.referendum but actually we have the same strains of opinion and the same
:31:38. > :31:42.anxieties in our own countries, let's think about how we deal with
:31:43. > :31:49.those and let's not look upon the Brits as outliers. They were always
:31:50. > :31:54.difficult in Europe, now we have got rid of the difficult people. No,
:31:55. > :32:01.every country is anxious about the effect of globalisation on jobs and
:32:02. > :32:07.so on. I think it is not hard to see why Leave won. Personally I think it
:32:08. > :32:12.is a very serious mistake for us but there it is. It's not hard to see
:32:13. > :32:20.how they win. You still haven't told me why they won. Because when you
:32:21. > :32:24.take a dissatisfaction with the status quo politically and anxiety
:32:25. > :32:30.about flat-lining incomes, worries about immigration particularly, and
:32:31. > :32:36.immigration has always been... Let's be very clear, you and I go back 30,
:32:37. > :32:41.40 years. Immigration has always been an issue. Where you mobilise
:32:42. > :32:47.opinion around it, particularly when the British media are prepared to
:32:48. > :32:52.take your platform and run with it, a referendum in those circumstances
:32:53. > :32:55.is going to be a tough thing. But immigration has never been bigger
:32:56. > :33:00.and a lot of the British people felt not so much about the numbers coming
:33:01. > :33:04.in, as it is very well for these politicians to let the people in but
:33:05. > :33:09.they are not building the schools and hospitals. They are not building
:33:10. > :33:14.the public services that we need if these numbers are to go and they
:33:15. > :33:17.felt the British political elite on the left and right were not
:33:18. > :33:21.listening to them and they may have been right.
:33:22. > :33:28.I thought my last election campaign on immigration. I know what a strong
:33:29. > :33:32.issue it is. But the answer to the problems and the pressures from
:33:33. > :33:35.Eastern Europe in particular, because I think the Eastern European
:33:36. > :33:39.is make a good contribution to this country. You did not build the
:33:40. > :33:43.houses for them coming in, neither did the last Labour government, and
:33:44. > :33:48.this government has not built enough? That was the reaction. I
:33:49. > :34:03.would suggest it is also why the Labour Party could not mobilise its
:34:04. > :34:10.vote for a massive turnout for movie Mac. -- Remain. You were the man
:34:11. > :34:15.that made the Labour Party love the EU. That is true. We invested
:34:16. > :34:20.massively in these communities, in education and health care care
:34:21. > :34:24.particularly. What not in housing? Housing is a real issue. We have to
:34:25. > :34:30.take it seriously. The right way to deal with it is to have a housing
:34:31. > :34:32.policy for the population as a whole. The other thing about
:34:33. > :34:39.immigration, it all gets lumped together. I think a lot of people's
:34:40. > :34:44.anxieties about immigration were not centred around those from Europe of
:34:45. > :34:47.those from outside Europe, however, I do except there were communities,
:34:48. > :34:51.and when people see their communities changing around them as
:34:52. > :34:56.a result of an influx of people, you have got to deal with that. Yes, I
:34:57. > :35:00.agree, but the answer is not to get out of Europe. Would your side
:35:01. > :35:07.perhaps have won if Labour had not fought such a half hearted campaign?
:35:08. > :35:12.I have made my comments on the campaign. What is important for us
:35:13. > :35:17.is to make sure that our own people understand why we were so passionate
:35:18. > :35:23.about staying in Europe. None of the problems that our voters face,
:35:24. > :35:26.problems and pressures on housing, jobs, health care, education, they
:35:27. > :35:31.will might be resolved by leaving Europe. One of the things that will
:35:32. > :35:36.also happen over the months to come is that as this reality, I keep
:35:37. > :35:39.seeing, now you can test this by reality, as that sinks in, there
:35:40. > :35:44.will be lots of Labour voters that realised this was not a smart move
:35:45. > :35:50.that the country has made. This morning, after the sacking of Hilary
:35:51. > :35:55.Benn, a prominent supporter of movie Mike -- Remain in the Shadow
:35:56. > :36:00.Cabinet, there seems to be amounting to inside the Parliamentary Labour
:36:01. > :36:12.Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should there be at two? I was coming on
:36:13. > :36:18.this programme to talk about Europe. -- a coup. I understand why you have
:36:19. > :36:21.to ask me. I know nothing more than I have read in the newspapers and
:36:22. > :36:26.seen on in years. This is for the Parliamentary party. It is not
:36:27. > :36:29.helpful for me to intervene, so I am not going to.
:36:30. > :36:31.The former Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking to me
:36:32. > :36:41.But not about Labour's mounting troubles today. They have just got
:36:42. > :36:46.more serious. Another Labour MP, Ivan Lewis, who is running for M --
:36:47. > :36:51.for me than Manchester, has called on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. --
:36:52. > :36:52.for mayor. Now Jo Coburn is here
:36:53. > :36:54.with us this morning. She's high up on the rooftops,
:36:55. > :37:01.casting her eye over events Events are so fast moving
:37:02. > :37:05.politically, the next Prime Minister in the Conservative Party
:37:06. > :37:10.leadership, and what happens to the UK after Brexit. Let's get some
:37:11. > :37:11.reaction from a former cabinet minister.
:37:12. > :37:13.With me now is the former Cabinet Minister Francis Maude,
:37:14. > :37:16.who was a Europe minister under Margaret Thatcher and negotiated
:37:17. > :37:26.You never made it clear before the referendum what side you were wrong.
:37:27. > :37:31.Can you tell us no? I am not going to see which way I voted until May
:37:32. > :37:36.direct my memoirs many years from now. You surprised by the result? I
:37:37. > :37:41.thought it would be a narrow victory for Remain but there was lots of
:37:42. > :37:46.anxiety around. My concern is that this is not a binary thing. The
:37:47. > :37:52.referendum result? The referendum clearly was, and it has to be, all
:37:53. > :37:58.or nothing, yes or no. The reality is, for quite some time, we have
:37:59. > :38:02.been a 65% per participant in the European Union. We are not part of
:38:03. > :38:06.the currency, or the Schengen agreement. At the end of this
:38:07. > :38:10.process, we should not be a nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said
:38:11. > :38:16.yesterday we are European nation. We will continue to be. The result of
:38:17. > :38:19.this cannot be pulling up the drawbridge into some sort of
:38:20. > :38:23.isolation. That is the language you're using, but the fact is the UK
:38:24. > :38:32.has voted to leave the European Union. Negotiations will start. They
:38:33. > :38:36.should not be rushed. They should not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was
:38:37. > :38:41.right when he said it is neither in Britain's or in the EU's interest
:38:42. > :38:47.for it to be rushed. There is a debate in the EU. People are talking
:38:48. > :38:50.about what happened in Britain on Thursday, but that is not a
:38:51. > :38:55.completely unique British phenomenon. But no one else has left
:38:56. > :38:59.the EU. There is anxiety about the direction of the EU in other
:39:00. > :39:04.countries, for example, the Netherlands. When I was doing
:39:05. > :39:09.European stuff 24 years ago, that was the most deeply pro-EU country
:39:10. > :39:15.that there was. That debate within the EU that someone spotted, Donald
:39:16. > :39:19.Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel has spotted it, that carrying on and
:39:20. > :39:24.assuming that this rigid doctrine, one size fits all, that approach,
:39:25. > :39:28.assuming that is the only way you can go, if that continues to be the
:39:29. > :39:32.case, there is a severe danger that the EU will spring apart. You think
:39:33. > :39:38.this could trigger a series of events that could be the beginning
:39:39. > :39:43.of the end for the EU? Unlettered reacts in a grown-up, sensible way.
:39:44. > :39:47.Why would it do that? I have heard European leaders saying that
:39:48. > :39:51.actually we have to see Great Britain, the United Kingdom, heard
:39:52. > :39:57.by leaving the EU, or what signal does it send to the one else? The
:39:58. > :40:01.signal it would send is it as an organisation which is willing to
:40:02. > :40:03.self harm in order to protect the very narrow, rigid approach to how
:40:04. > :40:09.countries collaborate and work together. Britain is the fifth
:40:10. > :40:14.biggest economy in the world, the biggest trading partner with our
:40:15. > :40:17.partners in the EU. To do something which damaged our economy
:40:18. > :40:24.deliberately would actually damage the European Union as well. Talking
:40:25. > :40:28.of harm... Europe would pretty soon start sneezing if we caught the
:40:29. > :40:32.cold. What about the Conservative Party? Lots of people were shocked
:40:33. > :40:37.when David Cameron resigned on Friday morning? Where you? I was
:40:38. > :40:41.disappointed. He has been an excellent Prime Minister and has led
:40:42. > :40:45.some excellent reforms. I sat round the Shadow Cabinet table with him
:40:46. > :40:49.for ten years and I am full of admiration for the leadership they
:40:50. > :40:54.give the party. It has to be his decision. I understand his view that
:40:55. > :40:57.the negotiations about the new arrangements of Britain's
:40:58. > :41:04.relationship with Europe has to be undertaken by someone who has been
:41:05. > :41:08.in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson? I have worked closely with Boris,
:41:09. > :41:14.Michael Gove, I am full of admiration for him. There are some
:41:15. > :41:18.very serious candidates. They would give the right leadership in the
:41:19. > :41:23.country and the party. Is Boris Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea,
:41:24. > :41:28.I am not in the House of Commons, so I do not know. In terms of advice,
:41:29. > :41:32.let's imagine Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are part of the
:41:33. > :41:37.negotiating team once there is a leadership contest. What would you
:41:38. > :41:41.say to them? The starting point, so far as economic relationship with
:41:42. > :41:44.our current partners in the European Union is concerned, the starting
:41:45. > :41:48.point should be that others need to show why we should not be able to
:41:49. > :41:56.trade on the same kind of bases that we do at the moment. Bielik Norway,
:41:57. > :41:59.or Switzerland? Nothing has to be quite so one size fits all as you're
:42:00. > :42:05.suggesting. There is no single model. Britain is the fifth biggest
:42:06. > :42:10.economy in the world. It is a different kind of relationship. It
:42:11. > :42:13.has always had a different kind of relationship within the European
:42:14. > :42:18.Union. This will be another different relationship in the
:42:19. > :42:22.future, unique and distinctive. When people start saying, of course,
:42:23. > :42:27.Britain cannot be part of the single financial market, the answer is, why
:42:28. > :42:31.not? You need to show why. Everyone has been saying that Europe as well
:42:32. > :42:35.as Britain benefits from being in the single financial market. Why
:42:36. > :42:40.would you want to commit an act of self harm to deny that? You sound as
:42:41. > :42:42.though it will be smooth and straightforward, Britain will get
:42:43. > :42:47.what it once in terms of the benefits of being in the EU, despite
:42:48. > :42:53.having left, and none of the things that the goal voted on, freedom of
:42:54. > :42:56.movement for example? Freedom of movement is coming under criticism,
:42:57. > :43:01.absolute freedom of movement, as it is framed at the moment, it has been
:43:02. > :43:06.coming under criticism from many parts of the political spectrum,
:43:07. > :43:09.both in Britain and across the EU. What was part of their original deal
:43:10. > :43:14.was freedom of movement of labour, people moving to where they had
:43:15. > :43:19.jobs. That is different from what we have seen at the moment, which is
:43:20. > :43:23.what is cause such concern, not just in Britain but in other parts of the
:43:24. > :43:29.European Union. I'll do surprise but the reaction of European Union, --
:43:30. > :43:33.European Union leaders, foreign ministers, who are saying that this
:43:34. > :43:39.is not an amicable divorce, telling Britain to get on with it? It
:43:40. > :43:43.depends on who you talk to. Donald Tusk has not been speaking in that
:43:44. > :43:47.kind of language. Angela Merkel has not been speaking in that kind of
:43:48. > :43:52.language. It depends on who you listen to. There is no sense for
:43:53. > :43:58.European neighbours to be acting in a way that deliberately harms
:43:59. > :44:02.Britain because, by harming Britain, they harm themselves. If you inflict
:44:03. > :44:06.deliberate damage and your nearest neighbour, your biggest trading
:44:07. > :44:13.partner, that has a blowback effect on them as well. When tempers cool,
:44:14. > :44:18.I understand they are irritated by all of this, but when it comes down,
:44:19. > :44:23.and people start to think about what is in their collective
:44:24. > :44:27.self-interest, then I think you start to get a more rational, more
:44:28. > :44:31.sensible approach, which does not need to be full of hostility and
:44:32. > :44:37.anger. Have you been approached to be part of the negotiating team? I
:44:38. > :44:40.have not. Would you say yes? You have had experience and you're
:44:41. > :44:46.familiar with negotiating within the EU. I am not pitching for that. I
:44:47. > :44:51.have left the front line in politics and I am happily engaged in a new
:44:52. > :44:54.phase of my life. But it really matters that we get this right and I
:44:55. > :44:59.would be happy to advise whoever is the new government, if they wanted
:45:00. > :45:03.to hear advice. Should the key negotiating team be full of people
:45:04. > :45:10.who campaigned to leave? I think it needs to be pretty broad. This was
:45:11. > :45:15.not a massive vote. It was decisive and clear, there is no room for
:45:16. > :45:18.argument, but it was not a massive vote to leave. I think the new
:45:19. > :45:23.government and Prime Minister will need to take his or her role as
:45:24. > :45:29.leader of the nation as seriously as the role as leader of the party.
:45:30. > :45:34.Francis Maude, thank you very much. Back to you, Andrew. I have the
:45:35. > :45:37.words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP who is running for the mayor of
:45:38. > :45:42.Manchester. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn cannot lead us back to
:45:43. > :45:48.government and there is a real risk we will suffer worse election result
:45:49. > :45:52.than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No more shadow ministers have resigned
:45:53. > :45:58.so far. Maybe some of them having second thoughts after they watched
:45:59. > :46:03.interview with John McDonnell. I am joined now by one of the
:46:04. > :46:08.Conservative's leading Leave campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your
:46:09. > :46:12.road map for getting out of the EU? We need to have the establishment of
:46:13. > :46:16.the unit in Whitehall, which I would like to see Derek Rae answerable to
:46:17. > :46:19.Number 10 rather than the Foreign Office of the Treasury, to begin
:46:20. > :46:23.discussions with our European partners ahead of what would be a
:46:24. > :46:27.trigger for Article 50. Presumably when we have a new Prime Minister in
:46:28. > :46:32.place. You go along with the existing prime ministers's
:46:33. > :46:37.timetable, that Article 50 begins the formal Brexit process? You do
:46:38. > :46:43.not want a trigger that before the autumn? No. It makes sense to decide
:46:44. > :46:46.our position in the UK. We have to put mechanics in place, increase the
:46:47. > :46:50.size of the Foreign Office, established a trade department. We
:46:51. > :46:53.will want to see as members of Parliament tomorrow what work has
:46:54. > :46:57.been done in preparation for a Brexit. This idea that no
:46:58. > :47:03.contingency planning was done is preposterous. That would have been
:47:04. > :47:07.responsible. We will want to see what work has been done and we will
:47:08. > :47:13.have to get such a unit under way so that there is no vacuum being
:47:14. > :47:16.created. I have heard some people in the Leave campaign saying it could
:47:17. > :47:20.be later than the autumn that we begin the formal process. The end of
:47:21. > :47:26.the year, the beginning of the new Year. That would be difficult. You
:47:27. > :47:30.would be looking to get an exit from the European Union at the beginning
:47:31. > :47:34.of the year. The financial year of the European Union is at the start
:47:35. > :47:38.of the calendar year. That would bring added complications. You want
:47:39. > :47:43.to get it tidied up. We want to see a process that means we can leave
:47:44. > :47:48.the European Union on the 1st of January 2019. That seems like a
:47:49. > :47:51.reasonable timetable. European leaders, particularly those in
:47:52. > :47:56.Brussels, the president of the commission and so on, they do not
:47:57. > :48:00.want to wait. They want to start the discussion is now. They may not want
:48:01. > :48:03.to agree to your ideal formal discussions therefore we present the
:48:04. > :48:10.Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal talks. Article 50 only gets
:48:11. > :48:16.triggered when there is a letter or a clearer definition. It is only
:48:17. > :48:19.Britain that can trigger it? Yes. What the European bureaucrats on,
:48:20. > :48:23.the ones that are on elected and not answer book to anyone, their
:48:24. > :48:27.attitude is different to the Chancellor of Germany, who herself
:48:28. > :48:31.is facing real action next year. You will see an increasing split between
:48:32. > :48:35.the on elected bureaucrats with no one to answer two and politicians
:48:36. > :48:43.with real economies to manage. You are confident we can get meaningful,
:48:44. > :48:45.informal discussions to sketch out some principles, not necessarily
:48:46. > :48:49.details, this side of triggering Article 50?
:48:50. > :48:55.Yes and we need to begin soon because there will be a willingness
:48:56. > :49:01.from our elected parliament to be in those discussions. The brothel --
:49:02. > :49:05.Brussels bureaucracy regard as impertinent to wanted to have leave
:49:06. > :49:09.the European Union, but we have got to do it quickly because we have got
:49:10. > :49:14.to show we have some momentum in this. Otherwise, if we create a
:49:15. > :49:20.vacuum it is a recipe for instability. Who should head up our
:49:21. > :49:24.negotiations? That is up to the Prime Minister but I think there
:49:25. > :49:35.needs to be a mixture of people who understand the views of trade
:49:36. > :49:40.experts... But who should lead, Michael Gove? He is an excellent
:49:41. > :49:44.suggestion, we also have Peter Lilley, who was involved in one of
:49:45. > :49:47.the most recent trade rounds, but we need to get it under way and
:49:48. > :49:52.Parliament needs to see what preparatory work needs to be done.
:49:53. > :49:57.Since we voted to leave, Nigel Farage has said it was a mistake to
:49:58. > :50:03.promise more money for the NHS. Dan Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave
:50:04. > :50:07.campaign never promised a radical decline in immigration. So
:50:08. > :50:12.continuing with the Department of honesty, can we now agree that there
:50:13. > :50:23.is an extra 350 million quid a week to spend on other public services?
:50:24. > :50:27.An extra 10 billion per year, but of course that is only available once
:50:28. > :50:32.we have actually left the European Union, which will be 2019, and those
:50:33. > :50:37.decisions have to be taken by the Government of the day. That will be
:50:38. > :50:42.very different from the one we have now. It is a long time in the future
:50:43. > :50:47.but what the Leave campaign, and what people didn't grasp was that it
:50:48. > :50:50.wasn't an election, they were reluctant to give future governments
:50:51. > :51:03.greater choice over the actions they could pursue if they wanted. So I
:51:04. > :51:07.will log that the 350 is more like 160. Will the Tory department
:51:08. > :51:11.whittle down the leadership hopefuls to a short list of two by the time
:51:12. > :51:18.the Parliament across the road goes off to the summary says on July the
:51:19. > :51:21.21st? It is a decision that will be taken by the 1922 committee. I think
:51:22. > :51:29.we should have a timetable similar to the one we had in 2005, not least
:51:30. > :51:34.because our party membership will be involved in the decision. What was
:51:35. > :51:37.that timetable? We didn't have the MPs' ballot until after the party
:51:38. > :51:46.conference so people could see a range of candidates they might have.
:51:47. > :51:50.So you would like a beauty parade at the Tory party conference in the
:51:51. > :51:56.first week of October that includes all of the Tory candidates? That is
:51:57. > :52:06.what we did last time, that was the system that produced David Cameron's
:52:07. > :52:10.election. Then the party... Know, first the House of Commons would
:52:11. > :52:15.have to reduce five or six candidates down to two, then the
:52:16. > :52:20.party and the country would have to decide who is right so the Prime
:52:21. > :52:26.Minister may be there until November. Potentially, under that
:52:27. > :52:29.timetable. I don't think that has huge drawbacks because we need to
:52:30. > :52:34.get that period of the pre-talks under way, then you have the new
:52:35. > :52:44.Prime Minister and can trigger article 50. Is it realistic to have
:52:45. > :52:49.a lame duck government from the end of June until the beginning of
:52:50. > :52:53.November? My view is that having that period does not make a huge
:52:54. > :52:57.difference to the process, but it might make a better choice for
:52:58. > :53:03.leadership and a better process for the party. And if it is a beauty
:53:04. > :53:08.parade at the party conference, William Fox be part of that beauty
:53:09. > :53:12.parade? I don't know, I haven't decided yet. I am thinking about it,
:53:13. > :53:17.I will make a decision once I have spoken to my colleagues in
:53:18. > :53:22.Parliament this week. And if you're hat is not in the ring, do you have
:53:23. > :53:27.a favourite you would support? I might have and you will be among the
:53:28. > :53:51.first million to know, Andrew! Thank you for that, Liam Fox.
:53:52. > :53:53.Well, Friday was a pretty dramatic day.
:53:54. > :53:55.But Thursday was also a pretty dramatic night.
:53:56. > :53:57.Adam Fleming once again behind the scenes at
:53:58. > :54:10.It is referendum night, so call in someone who has done it all before.
:54:11. > :54:16.How does this compared to presenting it in 1975? I cannot remember
:54:17. > :54:24.anything about 1975 except my hair was brown and not white. What were
:54:25. > :54:36.you doing in 1975? Were you born? I was a twinkle in my father's eye. We
:54:37. > :54:42.are going to have to do things the old-fashioned way, wait for the
:54:43. > :54:46.results to come in one by one. Early to declare Sunderland went Leave's
:54:47. > :54:52.away by more than they had expected. Newcastle opted for remain by not --
:54:53. > :55:01.but not by a lot. It felt very close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know
:55:02. > :55:06.what is happening at this point? No, and I have just responded to a tweet
:55:07. > :55:10.sent by a colleague. And still we start to see results from the south
:55:11. > :55:16.east, because the Remain come out predicating a win on a good showing
:55:17. > :55:23.in London, Surrey, East Sussex, Hampshire, that sort of area. Until
:55:24. > :55:34.I see some results elsewhere, no, not yet. In between, politicians did
:55:35. > :55:39.radio interviews in strange places. Come round here, and there is Amber
:55:40. > :55:44.Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the kitchen. I am waiting to do an
:55:45. > :55:55.interview, it is living the dream. I will have an Americano with a dash
:55:56. > :55:59.of milk. Labour areas, lots of them voted out, but according to Labour
:56:00. > :56:04.that was actually a good thing. What do you think when you see that? It
:56:05. > :56:13.is what I was expecting. I have been saying all the way along it will be
:56:14. > :56:20.touch and go, really close. This has demonstrated exactly where the
:56:21. > :56:24.country is, fairly Eurosceptical but pragmatic and wants to remain
:56:25. > :56:27.within. Whichever way it goes, I think there will be a few percentage
:56:28. > :56:32.points either way and Jeremy will be a reflection of how the country
:56:33. > :56:36.feels and that is what you want in a leader. The percentages were not
:56:37. > :56:44.going Remain's away, as proved by the miserable faces up their party.
:56:45. > :56:48.Brexit campaigners like Jacob Rees-Mogg started to think about
:56:49. > :56:57.dreams of their own. I'm opening a fete on Saturday
:56:58. > :57:00.and that will be a great celebration Actually, I promised
:57:01. > :57:06.to take my four-year-old to the toy shop because it was his birthday
:57:07. > :57:08.yesterday and he can He may get a slightly better present
:57:09. > :57:13.if there is a Brexit. Finally, just before 5:00am,
:57:14. > :57:14.David Dimbleby declared The decision taken in 1975 by this
:57:15. > :57:18.country to join the Common Market has been reversed by this referendum
:57:19. > :57:22.to leave the EU. The action moved from the studio
:57:23. > :57:25.to Westminster and they denouement I love this country and I feel
:57:26. > :57:32.honoured to have The Prime Minister going,
:57:33. > :57:39.Britain's destiny changed, David Cameron's early morning
:57:40. > :57:53.announcement of his resignation on Friday fired the starting gun
:57:54. > :57:55.on the first Conservative leadership To stand for the party leadership,
:57:56. > :58:06.candidates only need to be If more than two candidates stand,
:58:07. > :58:11.a ballot of MPs whittles that down via first past the post,
:58:12. > :58:13.until they are left Those two are then put to the full
:58:14. > :58:18.membership of the party, said to be about 150,000 strong,
:58:19. > :58:20.who decide the winner David Cameron has said he wants
:58:21. > :58:26.a successor in place by the Conservative Party conference
:58:27. > :58:28.in Birmingham, which starts But it will be the backbench 1922
:58:29. > :58:35.Committee which decides They will meet tomorrow to set
:58:36. > :58:42.the process in train. I'm joined now by the Deputy
:58:43. > :59:03.Chairman of the Conservative Party Is it not inconceivable, given that
:59:04. > :59:08.the country has voted to leave the EU, that it can be anything but a
:59:09. > :59:11.Brexit leader to take over? That may be the case but it will be up to the
:59:12. > :59:19.members and Parliamentary party to decide. My point is that, given the
:59:20. > :59:23.way the country has voted, given the Conservative Party voted even more
:59:24. > :59:31.that way to leave, that you need to have a leader that embodies... Was
:59:32. > :59:35.there for the fight on that side. It may be that the party membership
:59:36. > :59:39.decides for those reasons to vote for a Brexit leader, but it may be
:59:40. > :59:42.that they vote for someone over all who they think will best serve the
:59:43. > :59:47.country and party, it is just unknown. Will they be likely to
:59:48. > :59:52.trust somebody that said vote to remain to head up the divorce
:59:53. > :59:56.negotiations to leave? I don't think that will come into the equation
:59:57. > :00:00.because the country has voted to leave, I don't believe in the second
:00:01. > :00:06.referendum. I believe our party has moved forward now so people want to
:00:07. > :00:10.consider a range of things. Who are the main candidate in your view? Who
:00:11. > :00:16.knows, because no one has put themselves forward yet. Clearly
:00:17. > :00:22.Boris will be one of them, maybe Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about
:00:23. > :00:28.Theresa May? We haven't heard from her. I'm sure we will hear from
:00:29. > :00:38.people over the next week. Including Theresa May? She seems to be missing
:00:39. > :00:43.in action. We will see. Are George Osborne's leadership hopes now in
:00:44. > :00:53.toast? We will see. The country has made its decision. You are reluctant
:00:54. > :00:58.remainer, is that fair? Yes, because with the terrorism I believe it is
:00:59. > :01:05.better to be in an alliance of democracy. I think as a party we
:01:06. > :01:08.have faced three existential challenges. One is in terms of how
:01:09. > :01:12.people perceive us and whether we are seen as a passionate
:01:13. > :01:15.Conservative Party, second way in terms of our infrastructure. If we
:01:16. > :01:20.are honest or infrastructure is dying in the country and our
:01:21. > :01:23.membership is ageing, and thirdly it will be best at restoring party
:01:24. > :01:27.unity. I want someone who will deal with those serious issues that
:01:28. > :01:32.really threaten our existence as a party. They are even more relevant
:01:33. > :01:37.because the Labour Party will get its act together and get rid of
:01:38. > :01:41.Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue has destroyed the careers of the
:01:42. > :01:46.last three Conservative prime ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John
:01:47. > :01:50.Major, now David Cameron. Is there any chance now the country has taken
:01:51. > :01:57.the decision to leave that it doesn't become the toxic issue it
:01:58. > :02:01.has been for your party? I think we should follow perhaps the 11th
:02:02. > :02:08.commandment for every conservatism, pessimism is a luxury know one
:02:09. > :02:12.should allow themselves. Obviously the renegotiations will be difficult
:02:13. > :02:16.but we need to move on and discuss other issues that are facing the
:02:17. > :02:22.country. Finally, what do you make of what Liam Fox has told this
:02:23. > :02:25.programme, that rather than MPs rushing to create the short list of
:02:26. > :02:30.two names that then goes to the wider Conservative Party and the
:02:31. > :02:33.country, to do that by July the 21st with summer hustings and a
:02:34. > :02:38.combination of the Tory conference if I can put it that way, that in
:02:39. > :02:42.fact it should all be on hold until the Tory conference and that you
:02:43. > :02:46.should have hustings there, then whittle it down to two, and have a
:02:47. > :02:53.new leader by the beginning of November. My own feeling is that it
:02:54. > :02:56.will be up to 1922 and the membership to decide. I would prefer
:02:57. > :03:00.that we don't go on forever choosing a leader. I think we need a new
:03:01. > :03:03.leader for the stability of the country, but we need someone who
:03:04. > :03:09.will put compassionate conservatism at the forefront.
:03:10. > :03:17.Your fellow MPs have to get a short list of two by July the 21st? Am not
:03:18. > :03:21.telling them, but we should have a leadership contest sooner rather
:03:22. > :03:26.than later, because the country needs stability. I will take that as
:03:27. > :03:27.a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very much.
:03:28. > :03:29.It's not just Her Majesty's Government
:03:30. > :03:30.feeling the after-shocks of
:03:31. > :03:35.Plates also appear to be shifting for Her Majesty's
:03:36. > :03:37.Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn
:03:38. > :03:40.from his Shadow Cabinet last night and facing a vote of no confidence
:03:41. > :03:41.at tomorrow's meeting of the
:03:42. > :03:50.The secret ballot will not have any formal status,
:03:51. > :03:54.but backers hope it will embolden others to speak out,
:03:55. > :03:56.and build an unstoppable momentum against their leader.
:03:57. > :04:02.So far, MPs, including Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field,
:04:03. > :04:04.Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt, have already said they
:04:05. > :04:09.However, in order to depose a sitting Labour leader,
:04:10. > :04:10.a challenger will have to put themselves forward,
:04:11. > :04:14.and receive the support of 20% of the party's MPs.
:04:15. > :04:17.There are currently 229 Labour MPs, so 46 would have to back
:04:18. > :04:20.the leadership challenge by writing to general secretary Iain McNicol
:04:21. > :04:30.If a nominee secures that level of support,
:04:31. > :04:34.a contest will be held at the party's autumn conference,
:04:35. > :04:38.taking place in Liverpool at the end of September.
:04:39. > :04:41.If any further MP wanted to enter the race, they would also need
:04:42. > :04:48.Voting takes place on a one member, one vote basis by Labour members,
:04:49. > :04:51.affiliates and registered supporters.
:04:52. > :05:02.If more than two candidates stand, voters will rank their preferences.
:05:03. > :05:04.If no candidates get above 50% on first preference,
:05:05. > :05:07.the last placed candidate is eliminated and their vote
:05:08. > :05:11.is transferred until one gets above the threshold.
:05:12. > :05:17.We are now hearing that another Shadow Cabinet minister has
:05:18. > :05:20.resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of the younger intake of Labour
:05:21. > :05:22.politicians from the North, ought to be in tune with what Labour needs to
:05:23. > :05:23.do in the North. With me now is the Shadow Defence
:05:24. > :05:33.Secretary Emily Thornberry. Are you going to resign? No, and I
:05:34. > :05:37.can tell you why. I think that at a time like this, when the Tory party
:05:38. > :05:41.is pulling themselves apart, when nobody has any idea with the country
:05:42. > :05:46.ought to go next, the challenge for the Labour Party is to show some
:05:47. > :05:55.leadership. And to be a centre of composure, to think about where we
:05:56. > :05:58.are going, and I think we should be thinking about the nation first.
:05:59. > :06:01.What is happening in your Shadow Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do
:06:02. > :06:04.not really understand it. We had a Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and
:06:05. > :06:08.there were lots of opportunities than for people to express what they
:06:09. > :06:12.thought. I made it clear that the defence of UI have been working on
:06:13. > :06:18.for the last 56 months would need to be redrafted. I would need to think
:06:19. > :06:23.again about it. In light of what is happening? Yes, it has a big impact
:06:24. > :06:28.on defence. It was disappointing for me but the important thing is we
:06:29. > :06:32.remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important
:06:33. > :06:37.thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at
:06:38. > :06:44.what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to
:06:45. > :06:47.show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall
:06:48. > :06:52.times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership
:06:53. > :06:55.challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues
:06:56. > :07:00.in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they
:07:01. > :07:03.seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the
:07:04. > :07:07.referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that
:07:08. > :07:12.Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory
:07:13. > :07:17.in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the
:07:18. > :07:21.campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David
:07:22. > :07:26.Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in
:07:27. > :07:31.this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David
:07:32. > :07:36.Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about
:07:37. > :07:41.his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being
:07:42. > :07:44.blue on blue. When I spoke to David Cameron during the referendum
:07:45. > :07:49.campaign, he was complaining he was having to do all the heavy lifting.
:07:50. > :07:54.He was not just complaining about the lack of support from the Labour
:07:55. > :07:58.Party, but from the Tories as well. Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn
:07:59. > :08:02.making his mark? Jeremy made 30 speeches up and down the country.
:08:03. > :08:06.There was very little space us to get inserted into that debate.
:08:07. > :08:12.People criticise Jeremy for saying that he was only in favour of the
:08:13. > :08:16.European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I think that was truthful and real,
:08:17. > :08:22.and it reflected the views of lots of people in the country. Lots of
:08:23. > :08:25.people will have voted to remain. Those on the fence would have
:08:26. > :08:31.questioned whether they were in favour. Jeremy's voice was more
:08:32. > :08:35.truthful. Does that mean he is a better leader than David Cameron? I
:08:36. > :08:39.suspect it does. When did Jeremy Corbyn complain he was not been
:08:40. > :08:43.allowed to do more? We were always complaining. I went to Birmingham
:08:44. > :08:48.with half of the women from the Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in
:08:49. > :08:53.workplaces and so on. What was the coverage we got? There was a little
:08:54. > :08:59.clip, a film of us going into summer, and the voice-over being,
:09:00. > :09:03.nobody knows what Labour says on the referendum. Nonsense. You can
:09:04. > :09:07.complain you did not get the media coverage you wanted. That is true. I
:09:08. > :09:13.do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to accept one-on-one interviews. There
:09:14. > :09:18.were plenty of offers. In the end, I think he did one on Sky News in the
:09:19. > :09:21.evening. If he was champing at the bit to get it across, why did they
:09:22. > :09:27.not agree to do more interviews and programmes like this? The truth is
:09:28. > :09:31.that Jeremy had a straightforward response to the referendum. I think
:09:32. > :09:35.he should have been given an opportunity to get that out more. If
:09:36. > :09:40.he had been able to, that would have rung true with the country. I'll so
:09:41. > :09:45.think the Jeremy was also elected less than a year ago and 60% of the
:09:46. > :09:49.membership voted in his favour. Now is not the time for us to go for a
:09:50. > :09:54.leadership challenge, this is nonsense. We have you here, arguing
:09:55. > :10:03.your case, effectively as always. It is not true of all Labour people. I
:10:04. > :10:08.think that Mr Watson has been to Glastonbury. I am not quite sure
:10:09. > :10:12.what the silent disco is. There he is, the deputy leader of the Labour
:10:13. > :10:17.Party. Would you rather be there with him or here with me? I would
:10:18. > :10:21.always rather be with you. I knew you would say that. What would use
:10:22. > :10:26.it to your colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party to face
:10:27. > :10:31.this motion of no confidence that could be placed before the PLP
:10:32. > :10:37.tomorrow night? I am told there could be a majority forehead. I do
:10:38. > :10:42.not think there will be a motion of no confidence tomorrow night. They
:10:43. > :10:46.could vote the next day? Or the week afterwards, depending on how you
:10:47. > :10:50.interpret it. Could you lose? I think members of Parliament need to
:10:51. > :10:54.look at what the country is calling out for. The country is calling out
:10:55. > :10:59.for the Labour Party to step up and show an alternative. We must do that
:11:00. > :11:04.in a unified way. There is not the time for internal fighting. It is
:11:05. > :11:07.quite marketable we have a Prime Minister who has just resigned,
:11:08. > :11:11.there will not be a new Prime Minister at least until the
:11:12. > :11:17.beginning of October, if Liam Fox gets his way, it may not be until
:11:18. > :11:21.November. And the Labour Party is in the middle of its own turmoil as
:11:22. > :11:25.well. I have covered situations where one party has been in turmoil
:11:26. > :11:30.and the other one has taken advantage, but you are now both in
:11:31. > :11:36.turmoil. It is unprecedented? I agree, and the future is in hands.
:11:37. > :11:40.It is up to us, what we decide to do in the next few days. I will urge my
:11:41. > :11:44.colleagues to take a responsible view of this and think of the
:11:45. > :11:50.country first. The country needs us to be there. You're right, the
:11:51. > :11:53.Tories went into this, the two parts of the Tories, the Brexiteers went
:11:54. > :11:59.in not knowing what would happen if we got the Leave vote, and the
:12:00. > :12:03.government went in with no plan B. There is no plan at the moment, and
:12:04. > :12:09.our country needs a party to step up and do that role. That is what we
:12:10. > :12:13.should be doing. What do you say to those Labour supporters, not
:12:14. > :12:17.members, but supporters and voters, in the heartlands of the North and
:12:18. > :12:23.the Midlands, who did not follow your party's advise? They voted in
:12:24. > :12:26.substantial numbers to leave. They do not think that this Labour Party
:12:27. > :12:32.represents them. What do you say to them? One thing that came out
:12:33. > :12:37.clearly from this Brexit vote, is that half the country feels that the
:12:38. > :12:41.system does not help them. They are getting a raw deal, and whether that
:12:42. > :12:47.is because they cannot get their kids housing, or because they are
:12:48. > :12:50.having problems with their jobs and their terms and conditions, weather
:12:51. > :12:53.data not get access to public services, all these things are
:12:54. > :12:57.wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy is that we have answers to that
:12:58. > :13:02.nationally, and if we have a decent government prepared to address those
:13:03. > :13:05.issues, perhaps people would have a slightly different view. Now we have
:13:06. > :13:10.to reach out and speak to them. We must not do what happened after the
:13:11. > :13:16.Scottish referendum, when the Labour Party turned in on itself. We have
:13:17. > :13:21.running out of time. Can you give me a one sentence inkling of how your
:13:22. > :13:27.defence review might change? There is a question of how we defend
:13:28. > :13:32.borders now. If the GDP goes, we're 2% of GDP being spent on defence.
:13:33. > :13:40.What happens if GDP goes through the floor? Will have cuts? I also think
:13:41. > :13:43.that the EU and Nato two sides of the same coin. International
:13:44. > :13:49.relationships will change. A whole range of things will be affected.
:13:50. > :13:51.Thank you very much, Emily Thornberry.
:13:52. > :13:54.Now, as one union was broken with the vote on Thursday,
:13:55. > :13:56.the fate of another came into sharp focus.
:13:57. > :13:58.In Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of the
:13:59. > :13:59.SNP said the option of a second referendum
:14:00. > :14:03.on independence was now very much back on the table after Scotland
:14:04. > :14:07.voted by a significant margin in favour of
:14:08. > :14:09.remaining within the EU, only for votes elsewhere
:14:10. > :14:10.in Britain to swing the
:14:11. > :14:14.Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew
:14:15. > :14:22.At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are
:14:23. > :14:28.inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the
:14:29. > :14:31.best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a
:14:32. > :14:37.sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other
:14:38. > :14:41.parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour
:14:42. > :14:44.develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First
:14:45. > :14:48.Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland
:14:49. > :14:51.been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of
:14:52. > :14:52.allowing us to be so will be devastating.
:14:53. > :15:04.Well, Scotland's not the only part of the
:15:05. > :15:06.UK where there are calls for constitutional change
:15:07. > :15:09.In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British
:15:10. > :15:12.withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for
:15:13. > :15:15.I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister
:15:16. > :15:16.of Northern Ireland, Martin
:15:17. > :15:24.Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,
:15:25. > :15:31.what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a
:15:32. > :15:35.very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made
:15:36. > :15:40.up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in
:15:41. > :15:44.Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British
:15:45. > :15:48.government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European
:15:49. > :15:55.Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland
:15:56. > :15:59.solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the
:16:00. > :16:04.Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of
:16:05. > :16:08.days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government
:16:09. > :16:11.would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of
:16:12. > :16:15.Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been
:16:16. > :16:19.focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of
:16:20. > :16:26.people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I
:16:27. > :16:28.Foreign Minister on Friday and I Foreign Minister on Friday and I
:16:29. > :16:33.have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.
:16:34. > :16:37.Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming
:16:38. > :16:41.desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to
:16:42. > :16:46.remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use
:16:47. > :16:53.your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll
:16:54. > :16:59.was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think
:17:00. > :17:03.you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just
:17:04. > :17:07.as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in
:17:08. > :17:10.Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just
:17:11. > :17:15.from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not
:17:16. > :17:20.say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that
:17:21. > :17:25.exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the
:17:26. > :17:29.future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how
:17:30. > :17:35.we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my
:17:36. > :17:40.focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions
:17:41. > :17:44.with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the
:17:45. > :17:48.discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you
:17:49. > :17:53.consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted
:17:54. > :17:58.to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that
:17:59. > :18:01.we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in
:18:02. > :18:05.Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take
:18:06. > :18:09.account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of
:18:10. > :18:15.Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with
:18:16. > :18:18.the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some
:18:19. > :18:22.distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have
:18:23. > :18:24.more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where
:18:25. > :18:32.our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue
:18:33. > :18:40.to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not
:18:41. > :18:44.against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be
:18:45. > :18:48.one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the
:18:49. > :18:51.whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which
:18:52. > :18:56.has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of
:18:57. > :18:59.decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the
:19:00. > :19:05.dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the
:19:06. > :19:09.prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious
:19:10. > :19:12.undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of
:19:13. > :19:16.foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to
:19:17. > :19:23.pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you
:19:24. > :19:27.cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on
:19:28. > :19:33.Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the
:19:34. > :19:37.UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special
:19:38. > :19:41.arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes
:19:42. > :19:46.of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who
:19:47. > :19:52.wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with
:19:53. > :19:57.very senior officials and governmental authorities within
:19:58. > :20:01.Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are
:20:02. > :20:08.focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be
:20:09. > :20:12.how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the
:20:13. > :20:17.north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates
:20:18. > :20:21.which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of
:20:22. > :20:25.course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has
:20:26. > :20:29.clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the
:20:30. > :20:32.whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime
:20:33. > :20:52.Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a
:20:53. > :20:58.We now have Gloria De Piero's resignation letter, and a letter
:20:59. > :21:22.from Margaret Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy
:21:23. > :21:26.Corbyn should consider his position. When he did engage she was
:21:27. > :21:28.half-hearted, and in the end of Labour Party members and voters
:21:29. > :21:35.didn't know where the leader really stored. That is the latest from
:21:36. > :21:39.there. We have reassembled just for a few minutes before we go to the
:21:40. > :21:45.nations and regions our dream team panel. So we have a lame duck
:21:46. > :21:51.government, the dysfunctional opposition, and we voted to leave
:21:52. > :21:55.the EU. Anything else happening in politics today? It doesn't look like
:21:56. > :22:04.these resignations are petering out. It is only about an hour since the
:22:05. > :22:08.last one! I think Gloria De Piero is very significant because she was a
:22:09. > :22:14.close ally of Tom Watson, it looks like it is picking up steam now. She
:22:15. > :22:16.is one of those Labour MPs from the north. She had been in the media but
:22:17. > :22:20.is one of those Labour MPs from the seemed to be firmly rooted in the
:22:21. > :22:24.north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is
:22:25. > :22:31.significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a
:22:32. > :22:39.rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge
:22:40. > :22:44.between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else
:22:45. > :22:45.is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential
:22:46. > :22:51.unravelling of the UK itself. In the moment, there is the potential
:22:52. > :22:56.vacuum of leadership which has emerged since Friday morning, David
:22:57. > :23:01.Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being weak in his position, the closest
:23:02. > :23:07.thing I have seen in leadership is Nicola Sturgeon north of the border.
:23:08. > :23:16.You may or disagree with her position but she has a plan. The
:23:17. > :23:24.markets will be opening at 7am tomorrow here in London. The
:23:25. > :23:28.sterling, the FTSE could take a knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister
:23:29. > :23:33.now have to give a clear idea of where Britain goes now? Of the
:23:34. > :23:38.beginning of the informal talks, the process. Even though he is on his
:23:39. > :23:44.way out, isn't his duty to steady the ship? The biggest question is
:23:45. > :23:48.where on earth is the Chancellor in all of this. He is responsible in
:23:49. > :23:49.overseeing what will happen in the next few days in terms of the
:23:50. > :23:54.economy. We have that dignified and next few days in terms of the
:23:55. > :23:58.reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of
:23:59. > :24:02.England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is
:24:03. > :24:07.nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,
:24:08. > :24:16.I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the
:24:17. > :24:20.people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's
:24:21. > :24:23.sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up
:24:24. > :24:29.together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next
:24:30. > :24:42.leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the
:24:43. > :24:46.so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn
:24:47. > :24:50.so they may have a fight on their hands.
:24:51. > :24:57.It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:24:58. > :24:59.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:25:00. > :25:02.Drama hardly begins to describe the events of the past
:25:03. > :25:08.It's yes to Brexit but nobody seems to know what happens next.
:25:09. > :25:10.Scotland, along with Northern Ireland and London,
:25:11. > :25:12.voted to remain, the rest of the UK voted to leave.
:25:13. > :25:15.I've been speaking to the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon
:25:16. > :25:19.And no switching, folks, I think you'll want to hear
:25:20. > :25:24.what she has to say about Scotland possibly stopping Brexit.
:25:25. > :25:27.David Cameron says Scotland should be involved in the Brexit
:25:28. > :25:29.negotiations but will his successor be so accommodating?
:25:30. > :25:32.I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary David Mundell.
:25:33. > :25:38.Jeremy Corbyn loses Hilary Benn and half of his Shadow Cabinet
:25:39. > :25:43.are said to be threatening to resign if he doesn't stand down.
:25:44. > :25:46.I'll be asking the Shadow Scottish Secretary, well, is he still
:25:47. > :25:55.Otto von Bismarck once famously remarked that man cannot control
:25:56. > :25:57.the current of events, merely float with them and steer.
:25:58. > :26:00.Well, as things stand, it looks like David Cameron has
:26:01. > :26:03.proved this ancient adage wrong by creating the current,
:26:04. > :26:05.steering the country onto the rocks then jumping ship,
:26:06. > :26:09.leaving others to work out how and where this country heads next.
:26:10. > :26:13.Only one thing looks certain now, for England and Wales that future
:26:14. > :26:31.European influences are etched into Edinburgh 's Mac architecture. From
:26:32. > :26:35.the Dutch ecclesiastical style of the Tron Kirk, the Italian
:26:36. > :26:42.renaissance of George Herriot's school. The Spanish coast modernism
:26:43. > :26:47.of the Scottish Parliament. In the spirit of the old Alliance Edinburgh
:26:48. > :26:55.has long maintained strong links with Europe. Little wonder it was
:26:56. > :26:58.Scotland's most remain city. Victoria is no voters were told
:26:59. > :27:01.staying in the union was the only Victoria is no voters were told
:27:02. > :27:05.way to remain in Europe and many also believe they had more in common
:27:06. > :27:12.with the North of England and the Northern Isles but last week all
:27:13. > :27:20.that changed. The total number of votes cast in favour of leave was 80
:27:21. > :27:27.2000. England and Wales defied the pollsters and voted to leave while
:27:28. > :27:32.Scotland voted to remain. Let June 23 go down in our history as our
:27:33. > :27:37.Independence Day. The nation had a rude awakening on Friday morning but
:27:38. > :27:41.as the refined implications of Brexit have become clear there is a
:27:42. > :27:46.palpable sense of anger among many Scots. They are asking the southern
:27:47. > :27:51.neighbours, what on earth have you done? I think there are going to be
:27:52. > :27:55.very many people who looked not just that the result of the referendum
:27:56. > :28:00.but at the tone of the European referendum debate and don't want to
:28:01. > :28:03.be dragged either out of Europe against our will or dragged along
:28:04. > :28:10.with this right wing tendency which is gaining momentum. The idea that
:28:11. > :28:15.we were going to be happy being governed by Boris Johnson I think
:28:16. > :28:20.will double the great many people in Scotland. The SNP election manifesto
:28:21. > :28:24.was clear, if Scotland was taken outside the EU against its well
:28:25. > :28:28.Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum on
:28:29. > :28:33.independence. The First Minister hinted on Friday there may be other
:28:34. > :28:36.options. I want to make it absolutely clear today that I intend
:28:37. > :28:43.to take all possible steps and explore all options to get affect to
:28:44. > :28:46.how people in Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our
:28:47. > :28:52.continuing place in the EU and in the single market in particular.
:28:53. > :28:56.Options short of Independence will have been discussed at yesterday's
:28:57. > :29:01.Scottish Cabinet meeting. It is not clear what they might be. The UK
:29:02. > :29:07.could follow the example of the kingdom of Denmark. While Denmark
:29:08. > :29:13.itself remains part of the EU agreement voted to exit. And the
:29:14. > :29:19.islands which are also part of the Danish realm are not part of the EU
:29:20. > :29:23.either. Could something like this be possible here? The fact that the
:29:24. > :29:27.leather precedent for art of a member state leaving means it is
:29:28. > :29:31.possible. We also have the conversed, comic the unification of
:29:32. > :29:35.Germany where part of an existing state now was admitted in the
:29:36. > :29:40.unification process. Though, they'd is a certain amount of flexibility
:29:41. > :29:44.and differentiate relationships we can point to other nothing that
:29:45. > :29:48.exactly fits in the model we have right now. For supporters of
:29:49. > :29:55.independence the way forward is clear. He pulled this morning
:29:56. > :29:58.suggests support has soared to 59% up many of the main challenges
:29:59. > :30:04.remain and they are additional ones, too. It is likely to become
:30:05. > :30:08.independent but it is not certain because there are many obstacles in
:30:09. > :30:14.the way of Scottish independence. The questions about public finances,
:30:15. > :30:20.Scottish oil, that has not been resolved. The question of the pound
:30:21. > :30:25.and what would be used if we were in out of the European Union. Another
:30:26. > :30:26.point is the border, this would become the border of the European
:30:27. > :30:32.Union, a very hard order between become the border of the European
:30:33. > :30:34.England and Scotland and the whole point about independence in Europe
:30:35. > :30:38.last time round is that in both countries within the European Union
:30:39. > :30:45.you do not have to worry about the border. F1 stitching the union seems
:30:46. > :30:47.complicated during the independence referendum, Grexit has just taken it
:30:48. > :30:50.complicated during the independence to a whole new level.
:30:51. > :30:54.Shortly before we came on air, I spoke to the First
:30:55. > :31:03.If you do not mind, let's cut to the chase on this. People have heard you
:31:04. > :31:07.say over the last few days and on the Andrew Marr rogue RAM, you do
:31:08. > :31:11.not want to be in the position you find yourself in. Let's take this
:31:12. > :31:16.idea that you have been floating that somehow or other Scotland could
:31:17. > :31:21.stay in the European Union while Britain leaves. I'm interested just
:31:22. > :31:28.what are you actually thinking about that? Can I just be very clean about
:31:29. > :31:32.my position? Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and
:31:33. > :31:38.my job as First Minister is to death a way to effect the way Scotland
:31:39. > :31:42.voted and avoid the damaging consequences of being taken out
:31:43. > :31:47.against our will. I can not sit here and tell you definitely what is
:31:48. > :31:50.possible and what is not, we had an unchartered territory and that has
:31:51. > :31:55.never happened before in terms of the country trying to extricate
:31:56. > :32:01.itself in the European Union nations within the member state wanting to
:32:02. > :32:05.stay in. My job is to exhaust every possibility. At this with the
:32:06. > :32:10.starting point not being independence but how do we protect
:32:11. > :32:13.Scotland's position? If it transpires as we go through this
:32:14. > :32:17.process that being independent as the on the way we can protect our
:32:18. > :32:19.position, that is a debate, the on the way we can protect our
:32:20. > :32:24.discussion and decision and the people of Scotland have a right to
:32:25. > :32:30.have the option of taking. What are you exploring? One can easily
:32:31. > :32:33.example Scotland being part of the Erasmus student programme with
:32:34. > :32:39.England not being but Scotland being part of the single market if written
:32:40. > :32:43.is not? What I will do all along is the open, upfront and honest with
:32:44. > :32:47.the people of Scotland, with you the media, I am not going to say here
:32:48. > :32:51.today two days after a situation I did not choose being thrust upon us
:32:52. > :32:58.and say definitively what all these options are. What are you going to
:32:59. > :33:02.explore? I want to keep Scotland in the European Union, in the position
:33:03. > :33:06.we are just now and look at all options to try to achieve that. I am
:33:07. > :33:11.not pretending that will be easy or straightforward. There are massive
:33:12. > :33:15.complexity is along the way. It may be the only way we can protect our
:33:16. > :33:19.position is to become an independent country and if we are at the
:33:20. > :33:23.position of looking at that to another independence referendum that
:33:24. > :33:28.is not simply a rerun of the last one. We are in completely different
:33:29. > :33:31.circumstances. It would be a situation where we were looking at
:33:32. > :33:38.the possibility of independence not to leave anywhere but to enable us
:33:39. > :33:41.to stay. If we think back to 2014, I passionately believed independence
:33:42. > :33:45.what's right for Scotland but many people saw it as a step into the
:33:46. > :33:52.unknown versus the security and stability of the UK. That is not the
:33:53. > :33:57.case any more. The UK we voted to stay in 2014 simply does not exist.
:33:58. > :34:02.What we do now is the consequences of the UK extricating itself from
:34:03. > :34:07.you will be damaging, socially, culturally, economically. My job is
:34:08. > :34:11.to try to navigate a path through this for Scotland which protects our
:34:12. > :34:17.interests as well as we possibly can and to do that by unifying people in
:34:18. > :34:20.Scotland are as much as possible. We can talk a bit more about the
:34:21. > :34:24.independence referendum any minute but I want to come back to this
:34:25. > :34:29.idea. You seem to be saying your ambition and what you are trying to
:34:30. > :34:32.explore is the possibility of Scotland remaining a member of the
:34:33. > :34:39.European Union even though Britain has voted to get out? Hordern, if I
:34:40. > :34:44.was sitting here as First Minister in the face of the vote that was
:34:45. > :34:49.taken on Thursday in Scotland I should not be First Minister. Do say
:34:50. > :34:55.it is OK we are dragged about Europe against our will. In fact it is not
:34:56. > :34:58.usual to see a politician or a leader say. I am not sitting here
:34:59. > :35:02.with all the answers about what might be possible or don't not be
:35:03. > :35:08.possible. We had an completely unchartered territory. The two
:35:09. > :35:12.certainties we have, firstly as First Minister I have an absolute
:35:13. > :35:17.duty to seek to give effect to what people in Scotland voted for on
:35:18. > :35:24.Thursday and secondly the UK as was, the UK Scotland voted to stay in in
:35:25. > :35:27.2014 does not exist any more. I understand that but what you are
:35:28. > :35:32.arguing for and what your ambitions are, I can understand why you are
:35:33. > :35:35.say death given the vote here. It is not just that this might be
:35:36. > :35:39.difficult given the government of the United Kingdom but what you are
:35:40. > :35:44.suggesting would probably need treaty changes to the European
:35:45. > :35:47.Union? The European Union is already going into unchartered territory
:35:48. > :35:53.were found thinkable things ahead of it because of the UK wide vote on
:35:54. > :35:56.Thursday. What I am trying to do is achieve some stability for Scotland
:35:57. > :36:04.and give effect to what we voted for. Over the days, weeks and months
:36:05. > :36:11.to come I am going to discuss these options with the European Union 's,
:36:12. > :36:15.other member states and seek to find a way forward. It may well be beyond
:36:16. > :36:18.the baby can protect position in the European Union as if we chose to
:36:19. > :36:24.become independent. If that is the we are in your will be complexity is
:36:25. > :36:27.that as a country we have do think our way through and make a decision
:36:28. > :36:33.on the back of that. I am not prepared as First Minister to simply
:36:34. > :36:36.sit back and shrug our shoulders and say Scotland has put up with all the
:36:37. > :36:40.pain that comes the decision the UK took. To be clear, what you are
:36:41. > :36:45.going to explore and your ambition immediately is to look to see if
:36:46. > :36:48.going to explore and your ambition there is a way Scotland can stay
:36:49. > :36:55.part of the UK, stay part of the single market and keep free movement
:36:56. > :36:58.of Labour? Yes? I am going to explore all options. In these
:36:59. > :37:04.moments of crisis you have two hold onto some principle. The principle I
:37:05. > :37:06.hold onto as I try to navigate the country through a very difficult
:37:07. > :37:11.situation that was not about choosing lawmaking is this one. What
:37:12. > :37:16.is in our best interests and how do we give effect to what Scotland
:37:17. > :37:21.voted for? Just a few days after this result I am not going to sit
:37:22. > :37:25.here and say that is of the table or that is on the table. My ambition is
:37:26. > :37:33.for Scotland to stay within the European Union. With the single
:37:34. > :37:35.market and free movement of Labour? Absolutely, Scotland voted to
:37:36. > :37:42.maintain the situation we have just now. You want to do that without
:37:43. > :37:47.Scotland leaving the UK? Let's look at all options. I am realistic and
:37:48. > :37:52.not naive in this. It may well be that the only way of doing that we
:37:53. > :37:56.be to become independent and if that is the case then, as a country, we
:37:57. > :38:01.have to decide if that will be the best option. The Olive precedent
:38:02. > :38:10.people can think of is dreamland. Are you thinking of being a reverse
:38:11. > :38:14.Greenland? It is uncharted territory and I keep hearing people saying the
:38:15. > :38:18.rules of what happens now is this and this would not be allowed but
:38:19. > :38:23.this process has never been done before. They are no rules, no
:38:24. > :38:29.precedent. What would happen from here on in is they would be a
:38:30. > :38:33.process of negotiation. My job as First Minister of Scotland, a
:38:34. > :38:37.country that has voted to stay in is to try and get the outcome for
:38:38. > :38:41.Scotland that is best. That is what I will try to do. What is happening
:38:42. > :38:47.at Westminster, the complete vacuum of leadership, it is shameful. I am
:38:48. > :38:52.determined Scotland will be led with purpose. In your initial reaction on
:38:53. > :38:56.Friday you use language about what you would do which would to some
:38:57. > :39:01.extent depend on the messages you were getting back from the European
:39:02. > :39:06.Union. What was that link to say? Are you looking for a message from
:39:07. > :39:11.the European Union saying we do not want Scotland to leave? Of course we
:39:12. > :39:16.have to have that discussion with the European Union. That will take
:39:17. > :39:21.time to do. The judgments I make and put forward to Scotland which are in
:39:22. > :39:26.my judgment the best way forward well, to some extent, flow from what
:39:27. > :39:31.the reaction in Europe is. It comes back to this. I did not choose this
:39:32. > :39:35.situation. It is an horrendous situation for the UK to be in but
:39:36. > :39:40.people in the England had the right to vote the way they did. But I have
:39:41. > :39:44.got to protect this country and I would not be the First Minister of
:39:45. > :39:47.Scotland if I just shrugged my shoulders and said it does not
:39:48. > :39:50.matter how we voted, we are going to go through this situation of an
:39:51. > :40:00.dragged out of Europe against our will.
:40:01. > :40:07.Rarely are at the moment, this has to be, or this has to be, we are in
:40:08. > :40:11.uncharted territory and I do think, and I said this on Friday, looking
:40:12. > :40:18.at this at any angle, they would have to be in a position to have
:40:19. > :40:20.that referendum within that time still, that is essential. Should
:40:21. > :40:22.Scotland vote for independence still, that is essential. Should
:40:23. > :40:24.within the timescale, do you know Verheijen government giving any
:40:25. > :40:29.legal advice as to what the position of Scotland would be? Would we then
:40:30. > :40:35.just be part of Brexit and reapply to the European Union? Would we not
:40:36. > :40:40.bleed? In terms of what applies within Article 50, what you have is
:40:41. > :40:44.what Article 50 says to you. What happens in terms of how that will be
:40:45. > :40:48.given effect to as a matter of negotiation. My position in the
:40:49. > :40:52.circumstances would be that Scotland is not believe the EU, we stay. This
:40:53. > :40:54.circumstances would be that Scotland is your completely changed set of
:40:55. > :40:59.circumstances. What we are potentially looking at independence
:41:00. > :41:04.to do is to stay, not to beef up but to stay. But you have not had any
:41:05. > :41:10.messages from the European Union itself? Telling you that would be
:41:11. > :41:16.possible? These are discussions and questions that we have to take
:41:17. > :41:20.forward. But if we voted in a referendum for independence whether
:41:21. > :41:24.or not they would stay in the EU have to reapply, you would have to
:41:25. > :41:29.tell us that you don't know at the moment? Frommy common-sense
:41:30. > :41:33.perspective, why on earth would it be in the interest of the European
:41:34. > :41:36.Union to say to part of a member state that democratically had
:41:37. > :41:40.decided that it wanted to stay and wanted to be independent in order to
:41:41. > :41:46.stay to say that it had to leave in order to come back in? Because we
:41:47. > :41:51.are talking about European treaties, not common-sense! Yes, you look at
:41:52. > :41:54.the world today at Westminster in particular and you do not see a lot
:41:55. > :41:59.of sense, I would accept that. But one challenge I have is to bring
:42:00. > :42:04.common-sense to a situation that is otherwise in turmoil. If you are
:42:05. > :42:12.going to have indyref 2, as it has been called, is it the case that the
:42:13. > :42:19.polls still were trumping Brexit, will you hold back from having it?
:42:20. > :42:20.This is what I judged in the best interests to be for Scotland. If I
:42:21. > :42:25.judge for Scotland it is the best interests to be for Scotland. If I
:42:26. > :42:29.interests by staying in the European Union and that that can only be
:42:30. > :42:32.delivered by an independence referendum, I have a job to convince
:42:33. > :42:34.delivered by an independence people. Would you hold a referendum
:42:35. > :42:38.even the polls show that you would not win it? If I believed it to be
:42:39. > :42:44.in the interests of Scotland, I would try and persuade people.
:42:45. > :42:49.Coming back to the politics of this, you cannot afford to lose another
:42:50. > :42:53.one. Gordon, I cannot afford... That is looking at it from my now hope
:42:54. > :42:57.little interest as leader of the SNP. I do not want to sound Syed
:42:58. > :43:01.Kamall yes or pie is here and I hope that is not do this by what I killed
:43:02. > :43:05.you, but I will not make judgments over the period ahead as to what is
:43:06. > :43:09.right for me as leader of the SNP or as a party. I am First Minister of
:43:10. > :43:12.Scotland and I must make judgments about what is in the best interests
:43:13. > :43:17.of Scotland. If I reach a point over the next few months that says the
:43:18. > :43:20.only way I believe we can protect Scotland's economic, social
:43:21. > :43:25.interests is to become independent, then I have a duty to say that to
:43:26. > :43:30.the people of Scotland and try and bring Scotland together behind that.
:43:31. > :43:33.That is perhaps the responsibility of leadership here. Scotland at the
:43:34. > :43:34.moment needs to have an honest conversation every step of the way.
:43:35. > :43:38.This is a situation not of our conversation every step of the way.
:43:39. > :43:43.choosing, every simply stand back and allow that to happen, the
:43:44. > :43:47.economic consequences, the social, cultural, the one sequences for our
:43:48. > :43:53.place in the world, they will beget is taking. I have a duty to find a
:43:54. > :43:56.different path forward, and I will try to do that. There's not another
:43:57. > :44:01.big constitutional as you do will have to face the fact that... I have
:44:02. > :44:02.a document your written by the House of Lords and other important legal
:44:03. > :44:08.people with wigs and of Lords and other important legal
:44:09. > :44:11.they are saying that Scotland would have to agree, the Scottish
:44:12. > :44:17.Parliament must agree, to carpets of European legislation. There is an
:44:18. > :44:20.issue here. People won't understand that you say you want to have
:44:21. > :44:26.another independence referendum but the Scottish Parliament was to try
:44:27. > :44:28.to legally block Britain leaving the European Union, there is a
:44:29. > :44:37.democratic issue there, we are part of the UK, there has been a
:44:38. > :44:39.democratic vote. But this is not about the Scottish Parliament trying
:44:40. > :44:42.to put England, it is about taking a decision as to the best interests of
:44:43. > :44:46.Scotland. I recognise absolutely love the complexities that have been
:44:47. > :44:52.thrown up by thirsty's vote, but I did not create these and I have to
:44:53. > :44:55.deal with the reality that we are in. They issued you speak of is
:44:56. > :44:59.whether they would have to be a legislative motion for the
:45:00. > :45:02.legislation that extricate the UK from the European Union. From a
:45:03. > :45:05.logical perspective I find it hard to believe that would not be that
:45:06. > :45:09.requirement, I suspect UK Government would take a very different view on
:45:10. > :45:15.that and they will have to see where that discussion up. We have had
:45:16. > :45:17.nowhere near as as big and controversial issues as this one but
:45:18. > :45:23.we have had discussions in recent pass over the trade union poll and
:45:24. > :45:30.legislation over weeping the Human Rights Act and similar things. Would
:45:31. > :45:36.you consider asking the Scottish Parliament not to back such emotion?
:45:37. > :45:40.Of course. Did you say, of course? Yes, the Scottish Parliament was to
:45:41. > :45:43.judge this on the basis of what is right for Scotland, the option of
:45:44. > :45:46.saying we will not vote for something that is against Scotland's
:45:47. > :45:53.interest, of course that must be on the table. Even regarding that block
:45:54. > :45:57.of Britain leaving Europe? Do not get me wrong, I care about the rest
:45:58. > :46:02.of the duty, eye care about England, that is why I am upset with this
:46:03. > :46:04.decision that has been taken. But my job as First Minister and the job of
:46:05. > :46:08.the Scottish Parliament is to judge these things in the interests of the
:46:09. > :46:11.people of Scotland. But can you imagine the fury of people in
:46:12. > :46:15.Britain if you stop them leaving Europe? I can, but I have to match
:46:16. > :46:20.that with the people of Scotland was Matt anger at being taken out of
:46:21. > :46:23.Europe against their will. I have to navigate the best way forward. I am
:46:24. > :46:28.not pretending any of these options are easy. I will try to do it to the
:46:29. > :46:32.best of my ability to the interests of the people that I am elected to
:46:33. > :46:37.serve uppermost in my mind. Thank you very much indeed, First
:46:38. > :46:38.Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. That was Nicola Sturgeon speaking to
:46:39. > :46:41.me earlier. Listening to that and with me now
:46:42. > :46:50.is the Scottish Secretary, Let us begin with this idea of a
:46:51. > :46:53.second independence referendum, as I understand it, it would be within
:46:54. > :46:57.the gift of the British government to see whether that referendum could
:46:58. > :47:01.happen. Do you think your government would or should block it?
:47:02. > :47:05.There are two issues around a future would or should block it?
:47:06. > :47:10.independence referendum, one is whether it could happen. Really it
:47:11. > :47:14.could, but there are process issues. The Big Issue is whether it should
:47:15. > :47:17.happen. I do not believe it should, the people of Scotland, the 2
:47:18. > :47:23.million who voted to remain in the UK in September 2014 are very clear
:47:24. > :47:30.and want to remain part of the UK. Just to clarify, Gordon,
:47:31. > :47:32.independence was not on the referendum ballot paper Barstow
:47:33. > :47:38.Stech, that was not part of the issue. The issue was whether the UK
:47:39. > :47:42.should remain in the EU. Very regrettably from my perspective, the
:47:43. > :47:50.majority of people across the UK voted that the UK should leave the
:47:51. > :47:53.EU, parts of the UK, Scotland, London, Northern Ireland voted that
:47:54. > :47:59.the UK should remain part of the EU and I acknowledge that, but what I
:48:00. > :48:04.do not accept was that that was in anyway a vote for independence, and
:48:05. > :48:08.I think it is very, very unhelpful in this very difficult situation,
:48:09. > :48:13.unchartered waters, I would agree with the First Minister on that,
:48:14. > :48:16.that virtually the first thing that is spoken about, we have hardly got
:48:17. > :48:20.the ink on the decoration of the new referendum dry, before we were
:48:21. > :48:25.having a debate about Scottish independence. What the priority must
:48:26. > :48:32.be, my priority, the same as that of Nicola Sturgeon, is to get the best
:48:33. > :48:37.deal for Scotland from the EU. But if she organises this, is that OK
:48:38. > :48:40.for you as a member of the British government, she -- if she wants to
:48:41. > :48:44.hold another independence referendum?
:48:45. > :48:47.The SNP are trying to exploit this difficult situation to further the
:48:48. > :48:55.cause of independence, entirely predictable. But would you try to
:48:56. > :48:56.stop them? Many people who try to campaign for Remain were clear that
:48:57. > :49:00.this was what would happen. It is campaign for Remain were clear that
:49:01. > :49:05.exactly what has happened. Would you try and stop them? I want to make
:49:06. > :49:10.the argument that we should not have another referendum, I do not want to
:49:11. > :49:15.get into these process arguments. If the people of Scotland are
:49:16. > :49:17.ultimately determined that they want to have another referendum, there
:49:18. > :49:23.will be one, but we in the Conservatives... So you will allow
:49:24. > :49:28.one? There will be one? I am not telling you that. Your government
:49:29. > :49:32.would not try to stop such a referendum? I do not believe that it
:49:33. > :49:37.is any interests in any way... But you have also just said... I do not
:49:38. > :49:43.think the outcome of that would be Scotland leading the UK because I
:49:44. > :49:46.believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK are as
:49:47. > :49:48.compelling up as they were in 2014. But you just said that it should be
:49:49. > :49:53.allowed to happen if people want another referendum? I have said
:49:54. > :49:57.there are two issues, could there be another referendum, yes. Should
:49:58. > :50:02.there be another one, I believe the answer to that is no. You heard what
:50:03. > :50:04.Nicola Sturgeon said at the end of that interview about legislative
:50:05. > :50:07.consent and harder would be the that interview about legislative
:50:08. > :50:11.possibility that the Scottish Parliament could not pass a motion
:50:12. > :50:16.of legislative consent, which could potentially stop Britain leaving the
:50:17. > :50:19.EU, what did you make of that? These are all very speckled death legal
:50:20. > :50:24.and constitutional questions. This is not how we want to take their
:50:25. > :50:27.situation forward. We want to work together, the Scottish Government,
:50:28. > :50:33.the UK Government working together to get the best deal for Scotland
:50:34. > :50:35.with the EU. Now, even before he resigned on Friday morning, David
:50:36. > :50:39.Cameron had spoken to Nicola Sturgeon, undertaking that the
:50:40. > :50:43.Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament be at the heart of the
:50:44. > :50:47.process of re-negotiation. I, myself, met with Fiona Hyslop on
:50:48. > :50:52.Friday afternoon to discuss how we would ensure close working
:50:53. > :50:57.relationships with Scotland at the heart of this discussion. But there
:50:58. > :51:00.is a democratic issue here. You could argue that the people of
:51:01. > :51:04.Scotland want another independence referendum, then that is fine. But
:51:05. > :51:09.of the Scottish Parliament was to try to use legislation to stop
:51:10. > :51:12.Britain exiting the European Union, the argument would be presumably
:51:13. > :51:19.that that is not democratic because we are part of the UK and it was a
:51:20. > :51:22.referendum and a democratic decision of the British people has been made.
:51:23. > :51:27.We must respect for the's result even if we do not like it. It was a
:51:28. > :51:33.UK-wide vote. It was a board by people across the UK as to whether
:51:34. > :51:36.the UK remained in the EU. Unfortunately for my perspective,
:51:37. > :51:41.they voted to be. -- Thursday's result. We are in unchartered water
:51:42. > :51:46.and we must work together. The Scottish Government and the UK
:51:47. > :51:49.Government, it must work together to get the best deal for Scotland from
:51:50. > :51:56.the EU. It should not be about moving the discussion on to another
:51:57. > :51:59.independence referendum. SNP's position is another independence
:52:00. > :52:06.referendum regardless of the outcome for that vote.
:52:07. > :52:11.We must look at the legal mechanism that we go through to get to a
:52:12. > :52:18.situation of the UK. While the Scottish Parliament blocking an exit
:52:19. > :52:20.of Britain be accepted? I do not think that the Scottish
:52:21. > :52:23.Parliament is any position to do that but I have not seen the legal
:52:24. > :52:27.documentation that you have been referring to.
:52:28. > :52:33.What about your personal position? You are a member of the Cabinet. Are
:52:34. > :52:38.you happy to be a member of the Boris Johnson, Michael Gove von
:52:39. > :52:42.Conservative administration? We are about to have a leadership contest
:52:43. > :52:47.in the Conservative Party, we have not heard hoodie runners and riders
:52:48. > :52:51.are. I look forward to hearing who they are and what they have to say.
:52:52. > :52:54.But it think it is a pretty fair assumption that I will not be
:52:55. > :53:02.backing Mr Johnson in that election as he becomes a candidate. Really?
:53:03. > :53:03.Why not? I do not think he is a candidate that can unify the
:53:04. > :53:08.country, I do not mean just got in, candidate that can unify the
:53:09. > :53:11.I mean the whole of the UK. I think that we need someone who at this
:53:12. > :53:16.difficult time can bring the whole of the United Kingdom together and
:53:17. > :53:21.who can work to get Britain, Scotland, the rest of the UK the
:53:22. > :53:25.best deal in the EU and I am not convinced that Boris Johnson is that
:53:26. > :53:31.person. And that person would be who? I am waiting to see who emerges
:53:32. > :53:35.in the leadership election. Are you really? If you are part of
:53:36. > :53:40.the government that presides over the break-up of Europe and possibly
:53:41. > :53:43.the break-up of the UK, that is the break-up of Europe and possibly
:53:44. > :53:45.hardly what you came into politics for, is it? It is not. That is why I
:53:46. > :53:48.hardly what you came into politics want to make sure that is not the
:53:49. > :53:52.case. I do not want to see the UK breaking up. I do not think it is
:53:53. > :53:55.inevitable that it should break up because I beat -- believe the reason
:53:56. > :54:00.is that for having Scotland as part of the UK, Scotland being in the UK,
:54:01. > :54:04.our strong though as they were 18 months ago and I will continue to
:54:05. > :54:08.make the case for that. And like the First Minister, I want to get the
:54:09. > :54:10.best possible deal for Scotland and the rest of the duty as they
:54:11. > :54:14.negotiate the circumstances of our the rest of the duty as they
:54:15. > :54:15.departure from the EU. David Mundell, thank you very much indeed
:54:16. > :54:18.for coming in this morning. Joining me now from London
:54:19. > :54:20.is Shadow Scottish Secretary and Labour's only MP north
:54:21. > :54:29.of the border, Ian Murray. Good afternoon.
:54:30. > :54:32.Argue still a member of the Shadow Cabinet?
:54:33. > :54:36.Just in the last few minutes I have written to Jeremy Corbyn, the leader
:54:37. > :54:40.of the Labour Party, with my resignation from the Shadow Cabinet.
:54:41. > :54:46.That letter has just gone off and will be made public very shortly.
:54:47. > :54:50.Please give us your reasons. We have gone through an incredibly
:54:51. > :54:53.difficult time, not just any party but since the EU referendum result
:54:54. > :54:58.and in the early hours of Friday morning. The Labour Party must be a
:54:59. > :55:02.strong opposition, it has to build a broad coalition to get back into
:55:03. > :55:07.government. We are in this position because the Conservative Party have
:55:08. > :55:10.brought us an EU referendum that nobody really wanted but indeed what
:55:11. > :55:13.they have done this fix their own party and taking a gamble but the
:55:14. > :55:16.country. That has been the wrong thing to do and I think that the
:55:17. > :55:19.Labour Party more than ever needs to be in government, I am just not sure
:55:20. > :55:22.that the country, what people have been telling me in the country, that
:55:23. > :55:25.that can be delivered with Jeremy Corbyn as the leader of the Labour
:55:26. > :55:30.Party. Hilary Benn said earlier he did not see himself standing will
:55:31. > :55:35.stop do you know who you would like to replace Jeremy Corbyn should he
:55:36. > :55:40.leave? That is a question for another day, it is the hardest
:55:41. > :55:44.political decision I have ever made. But I have done it because I care
:55:45. > :55:48.about my party but more than that, I care about the country. We need a
:55:49. > :55:52.strong Labour Party and opposition ready for government and in
:55:53. > :55:55.government. Especially to stop these mad decisions from the right-wing of
:55:56. > :55:59.the Conservative Party that sent the country both from a UK level and
:56:00. > :56:03.from a Scottish perspective into political turmoil. That is not why
:56:04. > :56:07.people go to the ballot box to vote for politicians and we must resolve
:56:08. > :56:11.that issue. There is a basic problem Ian Murray
:56:12. > :56:15.that there was this massive surge of support for Jeremy Corbyn, something
:56:16. > :56:20.like 2000 members of the Labour Party, most of which probably still
:56:21. > :56:25.supports Jeremy Corbyn. -- 200,000. If Jeremy Corbyn resigned and you
:56:26. > :56:30.have another election, the Labour Party will vote resoundingly to put
:56:31. > :56:33.him back exactly where he is now. It is quite clear, the Labour Party
:56:34. > :56:38.needs to stop speaking to itself. This is why we got into this
:56:39. > :56:42.position both at a UK level and to greater or lesser extent in the
:56:43. > :56:45.Scottish Labour Party in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale is trying to resolve
:56:46. > :56:48.that and is doing a good job of doing that but we have to stop
:56:49. > :56:52.talking to ourselves, it is much bigger than that. Drawn on my own
:56:53. > :56:56.experiences in Edinburgh South and Edinburgh South on that we went back
:56:57. > :56:59.in month of May with Daniel Johnson, we were able to do that because they
:57:00. > :57:02.speak to the entire electorate, not just people that agreed with us, we
:57:03. > :57:06.have that debate and that discussion, we have that argument
:57:07. > :57:09.and develop our own policies and the local manifesto is based on what
:57:10. > :57:13.people tell us. That is important for the Labour Party at the national
:57:14. > :57:16.level to do that and I just do not think that Jeremy Corbyn is able to
:57:17. > :57:21.beat us and be Prime Minister. I am not doing this just in public, I
:57:22. > :57:24.read that on Friday at our emergency Shadow Cabinet meeting. I said to
:57:25. > :57:28.the Shadow Cabinet and Jeremy directly that I did not think at
:57:29. > :57:31.this moment in time he could be by Minister and if he thought he could
:57:32. > :57:35.be Prime Minister, he is speaking to the wrong people and the need to
:57:36. > :57:39.change. His change things that's been Tussac Hilary Benn, I think
:57:40. > :57:41.this is the wrong way to go and it is the final straw for many any
:57:42. > :57:44.Shadow Cabinet to have served for is the final straw for many any
:57:45. > :57:48.Genette Tate for this country but we need change because the Labour Party
:57:49. > :57:53.cannot win a general election in its current state.
:57:54. > :58:03.Can I just quote you something? mentioned Kezia Dugdale, she said
:58:04. > :58:11.yesterday, " I fully support Jeremy Corbyn." I think your interview with
:58:12. > :58:17.the Secretary of State for Scotland has just opened that we are going to
:58:18. > :58:22.end more constitutional turmoil in Scotland. This is not the way the
:58:23. > :58:26.constitution works referendum works. This is about people's livelihoods
:58:27. > :58:31.which is what it has always been about for me. It is about reducing
:58:32. > :58:36.inequality, creating jobs of the future, making sure young people
:58:37. > :58:39.have opportunities and old people have dignity in retirement. You
:58:40. > :58:43.cannot do that by constantly talking about the constitution, constantly
:58:44. > :58:51.throwing the constitution up into the air and hoping the aces last
:58:52. > :58:55.line correctly. The messages coming out, we are not entirely clear,
:58:56. > :59:01.perhaps you can clarify for us. Labour in Scotland now appears to be
:59:02. > :59:04.saying what, it might back independence? Labour in Scotland
:59:05. > :59:08.have been clear. We fully back Nicola Sturgeon in the way she is
:59:09. > :59:14.looking to the negotiate with the European Union. Negotiating to keep
:59:15. > :59:19.Scotland in the European Union. We will keep those stone unturned to
:59:20. > :59:22.see what that will look like. And manifesto is clear we will not
:59:23. > :59:25.support a second referendum but we are leaving all options open at this
:59:26. > :59:30.stage. I do not think it is in anybody was my power at this stage
:59:31. > :59:34.to come to a determination about what is right and what is wrong.
:59:35. > :59:40.We're going to into and constitutional are people. We need
:59:41. > :59:43.to reflect. I am slightly disappointed the debate seems to be
:59:44. > :59:48.dominated by a second independence referendum rather than taking
:59:49. > :59:54.discussions about how we are protected. We want to be in the UK
:59:55. > :59:58.and be in the EU. It is up to us all like to work very strongly to make
:59:59. > :00:05.sure Scotland's position is protected. Can you conceive of a
:00:06. > :00:07.situation where you say you want press for another Scottish
:00:08. > :00:12.referendum but if the government does hold one, with Labour say in
:00:13. > :00:17.the circumstances we think it is in the interests of the people of
:00:18. > :00:21.Scotland to vote for independence, can you conceive of a situation like
:00:22. > :00:27.that? The situation around a second referendum even more difficult today
:00:28. > :00:34.than when polls closed on Thursday. All of the big issues we discussed
:00:35. > :00:39.as an Aussie in 2014 have not got easier, they have got much more
:00:40. > :00:42.difficult. It is incumbent on all politicians to come together and
:00:43. > :00:46.support the First Minister in what she is trying to achieve at EU level
:00:47. > :00:50.and make sure we had the best possible deal for Scotland in what
:00:51. > :00:55.has been a Conservative Party shambles that has been this country
:00:56. > :01:01.into complete and utter disrepute. Do you think there should be a
:01:02. > :01:03.general election? Even the Prime Minister has resigned, given the
:01:04. > :01:07.Conservatives will go through an election to get a new leader I think
:01:08. > :01:10.that may need to go for a mandate but I think the public are
:01:11. > :01:15.incredibly angry and we have to address the issue why so many
:01:16. > :01:22.people, including 40% of Scots, voted to leave the European Union.
:01:23. > :01:25.Do you think Grexit is now set in stone? Do you see any possibility
:01:26. > :01:35.that perhaps after the general election we could negotiate with the
:01:36. > :01:40.European Union. -- Grexit. Do say you can stay in the European Union
:01:41. > :01:45.and not leave? At this particular state politics in the United Kingdom
:01:46. > :01:49.could not rule out anything happening in what has happened over
:01:50. > :01:54.the last few years and few days. The second thing is we have just had a
:01:55. > :01:58.democratic referendum. I am a Democrat and respect the result of
:01:59. > :02:02.that referendum. The majority of people voted to leave and those
:02:03. > :02:06.where the rule set out, a simple majority. We have to make sure the
:02:07. > :02:09.will of the people is carried forward and if anything happens
:02:10. > :02:15.beyond that we will have to take it when it arises. One last point you
:02:16. > :02:19.have written note to Jeremy Corbyn, resigning from his Shadow Cabinet
:02:20. > :02:24.but do you think Jeremy Corbyn himself will resign over the next
:02:25. > :02:33.few days? I think Jeremy Hunt is to reflect himself on with the Labour
:02:34. > :02:36.Party is going. -- Jeremy Corbyn. He has to look at himself and see
:02:37. > :02:41.whether he could be Prime Minister. I think he will find it difficult to
:02:42. > :02:45.answer yes to that question. Here's a decent human being, a lovely man
:02:46. > :02:52.who I get on well with but I do not think he can read the Labour Party
:02:53. > :02:55.and the Prime Minister. Thank you for joining us this morning.
:02:56. > :03:00.Brian Taylor, our political editor, is with me now.
:03:01. > :03:16.You are the master of Scottish exams. Help Marveaux we can see.
:03:17. > :03:27.Help ma boab. -- I think Labour ran a timid campaign which did not
:03:28. > :03:36.energise the support. There were a range of people voting against the
:03:37. > :03:41.European Union. There was anger in some communities in England and in
:03:42. > :03:44.Scotland as well. They saw a dreadful economic situation with the
:03:45. > :03:50.EU not ameliorating it and perhaps making it worse. There were perhaps
:03:51. > :03:54.middle-class and lower middle-class England, a kind of movement of
:03:55. > :04:01.concern towards English identity which had three factors. One, what
:04:02. > :04:06.on earth are the Scots up to. What is happening with the European Union
:04:07. > :04:08.and those came together in a concatenation of a revived English
:04:09. > :04:14.identity that these sort Europe standing against. That is Labour.
:04:15. > :04:18.What did you think about what Nicola Sturgeon said about Holyrood
:04:19. > :04:24.possibly blocking the exit? The Scottish Parliament as to implement
:04:25. > :04:29.European implementation. The things that matter, the single market and
:04:30. > :04:33.the treaties. I think politically there would be a huge resentment
:04:34. > :04:41.from Westminster and England where it to be the case... You heard what
:04:42. > :04:49.she said. These things are tough and rough. If, for example, Scotland had
:04:50. > :04:52.voted yes to independence in 2014 and the Westminster Parliament had
:04:53. > :04:59.used a mechanism to stop that you could see the anger in that. It is
:05:00. > :05:08.likely and deep possible scenario but likely I think not. I was
:05:09. > :05:12.reading a piece you had written on this on Friday, you think Nicola
:05:13. > :05:21.Sturgeon would be reluctant to go for an independence referendum
:05:22. > :05:25.again. She want to hold an independence referendum again? The
:05:26. > :05:30.answer is no. She said if she doesn't she would have to do within
:05:31. > :05:38.two years. The oil price is down from 2014, the currency crisis is
:05:39. > :05:47.still there. The EU exit could empower Scots to feel that or want
:05:48. > :05:53.instability. It is not one of flight, of reaching away from
:05:54. > :05:57.despotism. It is a stone confidence and nations self-determination to
:05:58. > :06:05.want independence. Haps the instability created by Brexit is
:06:06. > :06:08.causing that. She is genuinely seeking alternatives to maintaining
:06:09. > :06:13.Scotland's status in the EU. She is going to seek each of those in turn
:06:14. > :06:16.and I think you will find each of those as frustrated I Deeney to
:06:17. > :06:21.build a relationship with the European Union that is a step on
:06:22. > :06:24.treaty and status. I think she will then come to the conclusion that the
:06:25. > :06:31.only one that is left is something independence. We will have to leave
:06:32. > :06:32.it there. Thank you very much indeed.
:06:33. > :06:37.I'll be back at the same time next week.