03/07/2016

:00:35. > :00:41.Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

:00:42. > :00:43.after a Leave vote in the referendum.

:00:44. > :00:51.Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

:00:52. > :00:54.to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

:00:55. > :00:58.He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

:00:59. > :01:06.When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

:01:07. > :01:07.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland.

:01:08. > :01:10.After a week when the Conservatives drew the long knives on each other

:01:11. > :01:13.and all the parties here launched volleys at them, we'll ask Ruth

:01:14. > :01:25.And with me, three political journalists, key lieutenants

:01:26. > :01:29.who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

:01:30. > :01:35.them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

:01:36. > :01:39.Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:40. > :01:42.So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

:01:43. > :01:44.candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

:01:45. > :01:50.Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

:01:51. > :01:54.who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

:01:55. > :02:01.This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

:02:02. > :02:07.We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

:02:08. > :02:11.but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

:02:12. > :02:15.business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

:02:16. > :02:21.It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

:02:22. > :02:23.competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

:02:24. > :02:28.upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

:02:29. > :02:35.establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

:02:36. > :02:39.once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

:02:40. > :02:44.two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

:02:45. > :02:49.is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

:02:50. > :02:53.the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

:02:54. > :02:56.this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

:02:57. > :03:00.place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

:03:01. > :03:05.candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

:03:06. > :03:09.ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

:03:10. > :03:12.Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

:03:13. > :03:16.country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

:03:17. > :03:20.should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

:03:21. > :03:26.taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

:03:27. > :03:30.to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

:03:31. > :03:35.commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

:03:36. > :03:40.is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

:03:41. > :03:42.and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

:03:43. > :03:44.Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

:03:45. > :03:49.to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

:03:50. > :03:55.Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

:03:56. > :03:58.consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

:03:59. > :04:04.that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

:04:05. > :04:07.Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

:04:08. > :04:13.think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

:04:14. > :04:17.have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

:04:18. > :04:21.he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

:04:22. > :04:24.ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

:04:25. > :04:29.with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

:04:30. > :04:33.most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

:04:34. > :04:37.honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

:04:38. > :04:43.from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

:04:44. > :04:46.moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

:04:47. > :04:49.Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

:04:50. > :04:53.about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

:04:54. > :04:59.Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

:05:00. > :05:04.last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

:05:05. > :05:07.not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

:05:08. > :05:13.narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

:05:14. > :05:21.in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

:05:22. > :05:26.different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

:05:27. > :05:32.bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

:05:33. > :05:39.Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

:05:40. > :05:47.schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

:05:48. > :05:55.out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

:05:56. > :06:00.from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

:06:01. > :06:03.She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

:06:04. > :06:08.that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

:06:09. > :06:14.competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

:06:15. > :06:20.That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

:06:21. > :06:25.trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

:06:26. > :06:29.with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

:06:30. > :06:32.question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

:06:33. > :06:36.ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

:06:37. > :06:41.with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

:06:42. > :06:45.impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

:06:46. > :06:49.herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

:06:50. > :06:54.events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

:06:55. > :07:00.Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

:07:01. > :07:07.into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

:07:08. > :07:10.the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

:07:11. > :07:17.That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

:07:18. > :07:24.Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

:07:25. > :07:27.country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

:07:28. > :07:33.or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

:07:34. > :07:37.dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

:07:38. > :07:40.Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

:07:41. > :07:45.that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

:07:46. > :07:51.on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

:07:52. > :07:57.serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

:07:58. > :08:04.two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

:08:05. > :08:06.could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

:08:07. > :08:12.can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

:08:13. > :08:14.anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

:08:15. > :08:20.ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

:08:21. > :08:25.others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

:08:26. > :08:30.presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

:08:31. > :08:35.you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

:08:36. > :08:40.particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

:08:41. > :08:44.movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

:08:45. > :08:51.will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

:08:52. > :08:56.side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

:08:57. > :09:01.Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

:09:02. > :09:03.contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

:09:04. > :09:05.Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

:09:06. > :09:09.Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

:09:10. > :09:11.If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

:09:12. > :09:13.we must fully implement the instruction given to us

:09:14. > :09:21.for membership of the single market

:09:22. > :09:24.if it entails the movement of people.

:09:25. > :09:30.Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

:09:31. > :09:47.Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

:09:48. > :09:52.to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

:09:53. > :09:57.result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

:09:58. > :10:02.I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

:10:03. > :10:06.referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

:10:07. > :10:10.have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

:10:11. > :10:13.netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

:10:14. > :10:17.Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

:10:18. > :10:22.this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

:10:23. > :10:26.have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

:10:27. > :10:31.than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

:10:32. > :10:35.perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

:10:36. > :10:39.extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

:10:40. > :10:44.serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

:10:45. > :10:49.you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

:10:50. > :10:57.Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

:10:58. > :11:01.oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

:11:02. > :11:05.will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

:11:06. > :11:09.because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

:11:10. > :11:15.a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

:11:16. > :11:22.important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

:11:23. > :11:26.three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

:11:27. > :11:31.Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

:11:32. > :11:40.operates. We are now seeing the road operates. We are now seeing the road

:11:41. > :11:44.ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

:11:45. > :11:48.you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

:11:49. > :11:51.between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

:11:52. > :11:55.a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

:11:56. > :11:59.Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

:12:00. > :12:02.Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

:12:03. > :12:05.Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

:12:06. > :12:10.detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

:12:11. > :12:14.crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

:12:15. > :12:18.commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

:12:19. > :12:23.have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

:12:24. > :12:29.about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

:12:30. > :12:35.50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

:12:36. > :12:39.we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

:12:40. > :12:45.want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

:12:46. > :12:48.prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

:12:49. > :12:51.that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

:12:52. > :12:58.President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

:12:59. > :13:02.expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

:13:03. > :13:07.Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

:13:08. > :13:11.don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

:13:12. > :13:15.That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

:13:16. > :13:21.Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

:13:22. > :13:24.way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

:13:25. > :13:29.there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

:13:30. > :13:35.than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

:13:36. > :13:39.but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

:13:40. > :13:45.in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

:13:46. > :13:49.had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

:13:50. > :13:56.quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

:13:57. > :14:00.the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

:14:01. > :14:03.restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

:14:04. > :14:08.restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

:14:09. > :14:12.direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

:14:13. > :14:17.her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

:14:18. > :14:20.accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

:14:21. > :14:27.this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

:14:28. > :14:32.between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

:14:33. > :14:35.Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

:14:36. > :14:40.Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

:14:41. > :14:47.Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

:14:48. > :14:50.Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

:14:51. > :14:53.very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

:14:54. > :14:56.the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

:14:57. > :14:58.compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

:14:59. > :15:10.government. What's most important quality for

:15:11. > :15:15.the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

:15:16. > :15:23.They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

:15:24. > :15:32.the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

:15:33. > :15:39.is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

:15:40. > :15:43.the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

:15:44. > :15:47.If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

:15:48. > :15:50.take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

:15:51. > :15:57.Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

:15:58. > :16:02.Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

:16:03. > :16:13.to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

:16:14. > :16:18.but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

:16:19. > :16:22.one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

:16:23. > :16:26.Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

:16:27. > :16:35.known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

:16:36. > :16:38.tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

:16:39. > :16:44.emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

:16:45. > :16:47.overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

:16:48. > :16:53.among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

:16:54. > :16:58.country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

:16:59. > :17:03.the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

:17:04. > :17:07.would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

:17:08. > :17:11.be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

:17:12. > :17:14.think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

:17:15. > :17:19.party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

:17:20. > :17:23.mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

:17:24. > :17:29.it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

:17:30. > :17:33.days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

:17:34. > :17:36.has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

:17:37. > :17:38.Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

:17:39. > :17:39.the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

:17:40. > :17:42.with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

:17:43. > :17:45.expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

:17:46. > :17:48.Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

:17:49. > :18:02.I think people may look back on this week as the week

:18:03. > :18:05.when the Labour Party committed suicide.

:18:06. > :18:08.He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

:18:09. > :18:12.The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

:18:13. > :18:30.sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:18:31. > :18:32.he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

:18:33. > :18:34.ahead of this EU referendum debate.

:18:35. > :18:39.and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

:18:40. > :18:44.in internal manoeuvring at this time.

:18:45. > :18:51.In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

:18:52. > :18:55.Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

:18:56. > :18:59.at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

:19:00. > :19:01.on the eve of a no-confidence vote

:19:02. > :19:07.his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

:19:08. > :19:10.It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

:19:11. > :19:13.where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

:19:14. > :19:16."I like you, you've always been my friend.

:19:17. > :19:19.I appreciate what you've tried to do,

:19:20. > :19:27.but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

:19:28. > :19:29.With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

:19:30. > :19:39.He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

:19:40. > :19:41.And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

:19:42. > :19:46.his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

:19:47. > :19:51.I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:19:52. > :19:58.and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

:19:59. > :20:01.The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:20:02. > :20:05.They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:06. > :20:08.They are interested in the Falklands.

:20:09. > :20:12.They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

:20:13. > :20:14.But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:15. > :20:21.of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:22. > :20:24.On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

:20:25. > :20:28.the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

:20:29. > :20:37.Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

:20:38. > :20:41.Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

:20:42. > :20:47.I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

:20:48. > :20:56.It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

:20:57. > :21:00.On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:21:01. > :21:04.Are you going to stand for the leadership?

:21:05. > :21:09.I'll be saying something later today.

:21:10. > :21:11.It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

:21:12. > :21:15.We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

:21:16. > :21:19.four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

:21:20. > :21:20.have gone into his office and are trying

:21:21. > :21:29.As it happened, they weren't invited in.

:21:30. > :21:31.Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

:21:32. > :21:33.and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:34. > :21:40.retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:41. > :21:49.no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:50. > :21:53.We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:54. > :21:55.a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

:21:56. > :21:58.the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:21:59. > :22:00.He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:22:01. > :22:05.a new generation of politicians to come forward.

:22:06. > :22:10.This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

:22:11. > :22:12.who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

:22:13. > :22:16.And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

:22:17. > :22:21.These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:22. > :22:24.You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:25. > :22:27.Is that usurping traditional party structures?

:22:28. > :22:32.The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

:22:33. > :22:35.basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

:22:36. > :22:38.it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:39. > :22:42.If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

:22:43. > :22:44.than have soundbites and a polished media performance

:22:45. > :22:50.It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

:22:51. > :22:55.They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

:22:56. > :23:01.With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

:23:02. > :23:06.over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:07. > :23:08.But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

:23:09. > :23:11.Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:12. > :23:19.Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:20. > :23:25.still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:26. > :23:34.Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:35. > :23:37.I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:38. > :23:40.to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

:23:41. > :23:49.How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:50. > :23:55.He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:56. > :23:58.MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:23:59. > :24:02.the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:24:03. > :24:06.Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:07. > :24:11.actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:12. > :24:15.that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:16. > :24:19.but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

:24:20. > :24:25.just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:26. > :24:31.well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

:24:32. > :24:36.we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:37. > :24:40.seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:41. > :24:46.saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:47. > :24:50.well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:51. > :24:56.who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:57. > :25:01.interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:25:02. > :25:07.needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:08. > :25:11.seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:12. > :25:18.problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:19. > :25:23.stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:24. > :25:29.issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:30. > :25:33.country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:34. > :25:37.you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:38. > :25:41.Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:42. > :25:45.the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:46. > :25:53.principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:54. > :25:56.Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:57. > :26:01.I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:26:02. > :26:07.The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:08. > :26:15.against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

:26:16. > :26:18.To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:19. > :26:24.members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:25. > :26:28.with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:29. > :26:38.membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:39. > :26:43.responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:44. > :26:49.mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:50. > :26:55.suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:56. > :27:00.we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:27:01. > :27:05.both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

:27:06. > :27:08.legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:09. > :27:17.continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:18. > :27:24.about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:25. > :27:28.is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:29. > :27:33.negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:34. > :27:37.Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:38. > :27:43.has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:44. > :27:51.do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:52. > :27:55.in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:56. > :28:02.Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:28:03. > :28:08.happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:09. > :28:14.credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:15. > :28:20.country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:21. > :28:24.falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:25. > :28:28.negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:29. > :28:32.to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:33. > :28:37.at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:38. > :28:41.credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

:28:42. > :28:47.squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:48. > :28:51.politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:52. > :28:56.contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:57. > :29:01.cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:29:02. > :29:06.a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:07. > :29:14.either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:15. > :29:20.That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:21. > :29:27.agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:28. > :29:33.don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:34. > :29:37.on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:38. > :29:41.led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:42. > :29:46.collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:47. > :29:51.where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:52. > :29:54.there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:55. > :30:01.a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:30:02. > :30:11.I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:12. > :30:15.of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:16. > :30:18.Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:19. > :30:23.candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:24. > :30:28.only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:29. > :30:32.interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:33. > :30:36.motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:37. > :30:40.didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:41. > :30:44.keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:45. > :30:48.problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:49. > :30:53.that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:54. > :30:57.your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:58. > :31:02.certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:31:03. > :31:09.not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:10. > :31:12.electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:13. > :31:20.look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:21. > :31:24.like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:25. > :31:36.both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:37. > :31:41.seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

:31:42. > :31:44.those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:45. > :31:48.want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:49. > :31:53.destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:54. > :31:58.rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:59. > :32:00.in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:32:01. > :32:04.with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:05. > :32:10.talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:11. > :32:15.while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:16. > :32:18.When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:19. > :32:24.end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:25. > :32:28.I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:29. > :32:29.Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:30. > :32:33.times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:34. > :32:35.the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:36. > :32:36.Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:37. > :32:39.was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:40. > :32:41.to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:42. > :32:45.part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:46. > :32:49.has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:50. > :32:57.attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:58. > :33:03.of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:33:04. > :33:08.he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:09. > :33:24.from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:25. > :33:29.Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:30. > :33:34.seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:35. > :33:37.to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:38. > :33:41.position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:42. > :33:46.of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:47. > :33:51.leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:52. > :33:57.opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:58. > :33:59.more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:34:00. > :34:07.The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:08. > :34:14.would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:15. > :34:18.the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

:34:19. > :34:22.want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:23. > :34:26.the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:27. > :34:30.shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:31. > :34:33.go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:34. > :34:39.only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:40. > :34:43.happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:44. > :34:48.means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:49. > :34:51.why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:52. > :34:55.from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:56. > :35:04.much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:35:05. > :35:07.incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:08. > :35:10.will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:11. > :35:15.for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:16. > :35:18.your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:19. > :35:25.same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:26. > :35:29.be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:30. > :35:36.democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:37. > :35:40.Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:41. > :35:48.membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:49. > :35:53.to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:54. > :35:56.Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:57. > :36:01.cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:36:02. > :36:06.but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:07. > :36:10.they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:11. > :36:15.put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:16. > :36:21.Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

:36:22. > :36:26.position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:27. > :36:30.have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:31. > :36:35.writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:36. > :36:38.go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:39. > :36:41.seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:42. > :36:44.appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:45. > :36:51.and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:52. > :36:59.logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:37:00. > :37:05.wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:06. > :37:08.other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:09. > :37:13.Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:14. > :37:17.motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:18. > :37:21.are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:22. > :37:25.standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:26. > :37:31.that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:32. > :37:38.are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:39. > :37:42.am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:43. > :37:48.broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:49. > :37:52.recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:53. > :37:55.further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:56. > :38:00.on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:38:01. > :38:05.conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:06. > :38:12.is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:13. > :38:15.can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:16. > :38:18.the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:19. > :38:22.the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:23. > :38:25.might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:26. > :38:29.which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:30. > :38:33.were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:34. > :38:38.thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:39. > :38:40.ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:41. > :38:47.way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:48. > :38:51.need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:52. > :38:58.if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:38:59. > :39:03.happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:39:04. > :39:06.will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:07. > :39:09.appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:10. > :39:14.honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:15. > :39:17.the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:18. > :39:24.other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:25. > :39:29.is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:30. > :39:35.decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:36. > :39:42.he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:43. > :39:46.happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:47. > :39:51.Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:52. > :39:55.think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:56. > :39:58.my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:39:59. > :40:02.matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:40:03. > :40:06.week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:07. > :40:11.how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:12. > :40:15.nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:16. > :40:21.possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:22. > :40:24.democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:25. > :40:29.unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:30. > :40:31.change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:32. > :40:35.is what I still believe in. But the had to change the government. That

:40:36. > :40:38.leader of the Labour Party has to convince voters that we have a

:40:39. > :40:44.compelling vision for the future of this country. And Jeremy is unable

:40:45. > :40:48.to do that. Many of his policies, I would support. I want us to change

:40:49. > :40:56.the language around public expenditure and the public sector.

:40:57. > :41:01.Many parts of the country feel no elected and there are angry people

:41:02. > :41:05.who want to vote Labour, but are not convinced -- they feel neglected. As

:41:06. > :41:12.things stand, even with chaos in the governing party, you would need a

:41:13. > :41:19.miracle to win in 2020. I believe in miracles. And the most important

:41:20. > :41:27.miracle is that Jeremy can break the logjam. You still don't want to hit

:41:28. > :41:34.Ed Miliband smack you have changed your mind on that. I don't. I wish

:41:35. > :41:39.the Labour Party were not where they are, because I can do nothing for

:41:40. > :41:49.the Rhondda. May your God go with you.

:41:50. > :41:50.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:41:51. > :41:56.Ruth Davidson supported Remain and David Cameron.

:41:57. > :41:58.After the vote in favour of Brexit and the PM's resignation,

:41:59. > :42:01.we'll be asking if she has any influence left,

:42:02. > :42:05.Labour MPs stage a coup against Jeremy Corbyn.

:42:06. > :42:07.We'll ask former First Minister Henry McLeish about the party's

:42:08. > :42:10.future and about the prospect of a second independence referendum

:42:11. > :42:16.The EU has extended sanctions on Russia.

:42:17. > :42:20.We'll be speaking to the Ukrainian ambassador paying her first

:42:21. > :42:27.You could see the travails of the Conservative government

:42:28. > :42:30.at Westminster as entirely self-inflicted, after

:42:31. > :42:34.David Cameron's attempt to buy off Eurosceptics in his party

:42:35. > :42:37.by offering them a referendum he expected to win.

:42:38. > :42:40.Or you could see it as an honourable man keeping the pledge he made

:42:41. > :42:48.and made for almost unbelievably compelling politics.

:42:49. > :42:50.We'll ask the Tory leader in Scotland what's going on,

:42:51. > :42:53.and what it all means north of the border, in a moment.

:42:54. > :43:05.No stereotypes, obviously, but perhaps it is true that if you want

:43:06. > :43:09.to hear the voice of one important section of Conservative bursting in

:43:10. > :43:18.Scotland, the Scottish game pair is as good a place to go as any. So

:43:19. > :43:23.what are people here think of the state of the Tory party? I think Mr

:43:24. > :43:31.Cameron made a mistake in having the referendum. And I am sorry to see

:43:32. > :43:37.him go. I think he's stepped down a little bit too quickly. He said he

:43:38. > :43:42.was going to do it, he did it. It was unfortunate that there was a

:43:43. > :43:46.break-up in the party. I think the result has been unfortunate, it has

:43:47. > :43:51.backfired on him. I just think it is awful, a complete mess. What is the

:43:52. > :43:57.answer to the mess? I don't know what the answer is. I suspect we

:43:58. > :44:00.will see the Conservative Party in Scotland disowning this Conservative

:44:01. > :44:07.Party in England and trying to plough its own furrow. No surprise

:44:08. > :44:09.perhaps that that is a step too far for the Scottish Secretary. The

:44:10. > :44:16.Conservatives in Scotland have acknowledged that Scotland voted for

:44:17. > :44:19.the UK to remain in the EU. We want to work with the Scottish Government

:44:20. > :44:26.and with others to get the best possible deal for Scotland from the

:44:27. > :44:30.EU negotiations. What we do not accept, and what we do not agree, is

:44:31. > :44:35.that independence is back on the table as part of these discussions.

:44:36. > :44:40.But Scotland voted very differently from the rest of the UK. Does the

:44:41. > :44:43.Conservative Party in Scotland need to acknowledge that, or does the

:44:44. > :44:49.fact that it was a UK wide referendum mean they can ignore that

:44:50. > :44:54.nuance? We have to do both. It was a UK wide election, the sovereign

:44:55. > :44:57.parliament is Westminster in this instance. Ruth Davidson has been

:44:58. > :45:01.exceptionally clear on what she said about the Scottish angle on that.

:45:02. > :45:04.The vast majority of people in Scotland want to seek stability and

:45:05. > :45:11.we know from 2014 that they voted to stay in the United kingdom. That is

:45:12. > :45:16.very important. There is no escaping the challenge in all of this. The

:45:17. > :45:19.challenge for the Conservative Party for defining its identity. If you

:45:20. > :45:24.were to cut me or cut any conservative in Scotland, we would

:45:25. > :45:30.lead red, white and blue. We want to see Scotland remain a strong part of

:45:31. > :45:34.the UK, we believe that overwhelmingly is in Scotland's

:45:35. > :45:38.interests. So we reject any talk of a second independence referendum at

:45:39. > :45:42.this stage. We have been through two bitter and divisive referendum

:45:43. > :45:45.campaigns in the last two years, the last thing we need is yet another

:45:46. > :45:50.referendum campaign adding to that uncertainty. When he launched his

:45:51. > :45:54.unsuccessful bid to lead the Scottish Conservatives five years

:45:55. > :45:58.ago, he did so arguing they needed to set up a new party with a

:45:59. > :46:02.distinct Scottish identity to get rid of the toxic baggage of the

:46:03. > :46:12.past. Is it time to revisit that debate? I think we are already going

:46:13. > :46:18.down that road, and a Ruth Davidson's leadership will stop --

:46:19. > :46:21.under her leadership. She has been championing the devolution of tax

:46:22. > :46:24.power to Scotland, which has been delivered, she has not been afraid

:46:25. > :46:29.to have the Scottish Conservative Party taking a different view on

:46:30. > :46:32.reserved matters than the UK Conservative Party, for example on

:46:33. > :46:40.issues such as tax credits. Already we are developing a more distinct

:46:41. > :46:42.Scottish Conservative voice. If the Scottish Conservative Party really

:46:43. > :46:46.saying growing apart from the union is the way to defend the union?

:46:47. > :46:48.Perhaps that does not matter if they are pursuing the same objective.

:46:49. > :46:49.The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth

:46:50. > :47:11.Who do you fancy for leader of your party? I am in are unique leadership

:47:12. > :47:15.position, so while the process goes through, I will hold my hand until

:47:16. > :47:19.we get to this final two, that is how it works in terms of the

:47:20. > :47:22.processes of the party. Everyone says you like Stephen Crabb. I like

:47:23. > :47:29.a lot of people within the Conservative Party, I am a

:47:30. > :47:35.a lot of people within the Conservative. Andrea Leadsom has

:47:36. > :47:41.targeted -- argued that the next Prime Minister has to be a Brexit

:47:42. > :47:46.supporter, she has a point, doesn't she? When you are talking

:47:47. > :47:50.supporter, she has a point, doesn't these decisions, you need the best

:47:51. > :47:53.person for the job. That is not decided on one policy position, that

:47:54. > :47:58.is sided on several character qualities, moral courage, clear

:47:59. > :48:02.thinking, decision-making, that is what leadership is all about. That

:48:03. > :48:06.has got not anything to do with how you stand on one policy. It is about

:48:07. > :48:10.basic credibility. How could you have someone who has advocated

:48:11. > :48:14.remaining in the EU leading Britain into the next phase which is getting

:48:15. > :48:18.out of the European Union? Because no matter who you are in politics,

:48:19. > :48:22.or who you represent, you are always a Democrat and you believe in

:48:23. > :48:32.incrementing the will of the people. If it is a direct the boxy look

:48:33. > :48:37.referendum, that is clear, 17 million people voted to come out of

:48:38. > :48:41.the EU. The future planning this has to implement that. What you have to

:48:42. > :48:45.do is have the person who is best equipped to make the best deal to

:48:46. > :48:48.come out of the end of that, someone who can go toe to toe with Angela

:48:49. > :48:53.Merkel and not blink. Apart from the result, everyone thought you were

:48:54. > :48:58.rather good in the referendum. He was seen as a bit of a darling of

:48:59. > :49:03.the Conservative Party. -- you were seen as a bit of a darling. I worked

:49:04. > :49:06.hard for what I believed in. You could have an important influence in

:49:07. > :49:08.Scotland in coming up with something that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:09. > :49:12.given all this talk about second that could keep Scotland in the UK,

:49:13. > :49:15.referendums for independence. What will you be saying to your

:49:16. > :49:19.colleagues in London? I have already had conversations with a number of

:49:20. > :49:21.runners and riders that have put their hat into the ring for Prime

:49:22. > :49:29.Minister. I will be working very closely with the next Prime Minister

:49:30. > :49:31.in the way that I have always had professional relationships with

:49:32. > :49:35.David Cameron's Prime Minister. There is a big question now over

:49:36. > :49:40.what is right for the UK and Scotland. I was devastated on Friday

:49:41. > :49:43.morning. I campaigned hard in this referendum, campaigning to remain. I

:49:44. > :49:47.could not persuade 17 million people, they disagreed with me. What

:49:48. > :49:53.I need to do is make sure that Scotland has, one of the reason I

:49:54. > :50:00.campaigned for Remain is I wanted Scotland's witnesses and companies

:50:01. > :50:04.to be part of a wider free trade area in the UK and the EU. I need to

:50:05. > :50:08.chart a course going forward to stay in both of these so we have the best

:50:09. > :50:13.opportunities for our people. So you would like to stay in the single

:50:14. > :50:18.market? I would, yes. Even if the consequence is maintaining free

:50:19. > :50:23.movement of Labour? Yes. Do you think whoever becomes a leader, you

:50:24. > :50:28.do not want to say who you favour, could possibly sell that to people

:50:29. > :50:32.who have voted Leave? The people who have voted Leave will feel utterly

:50:33. > :50:35.betrayed by that and they would have a point. The problem that we have

:50:36. > :50:40.with the league campaign, this is one of the points I made repeatedly

:50:41. > :50:43.in the -- in the Leave campaign, this is one of the points I made

:50:44. > :50:48.repeatedly, there was no cohesive plan being made by them. They did

:50:49. > :50:53.not tell us what Leave meant. I understand that but the fact remains

:50:54. > :50:56.that immigration is a huge issue. If nothing is done about that, there

:50:57. > :51:05.will be wholesale defections from your party kit Ukip. First of all, I

:51:06. > :51:10.will agree that the Leave Bromley and I think shamefully pursued an

:51:11. > :51:14.will agree that the Leave Bromley anti-immigration agenda, I fought

:51:15. > :51:18.against that pretty hard. I have always stated that I wanted to stay

:51:19. > :51:26.part of the single market, that is what I want for Scotland. We are

:51:27. > :51:29.being part of the UK single market and that is four times more

:51:30. > :51:37.important. We want to be part of both. But putting this Scottish

:51:38. > :51:42.case, would you like to be, or would you expect to be, part of some

:51:43. > :51:48.British government team that is negotiating with the European Union?

:51:49. > :51:50.To be, if you like, the Conservative Party's voice of Scotland? I think

:51:51. > :51:54.what you need in terms of the voice of Scotland is the Scottish

:51:55. > :51:59.Government to be part of it. I have said repeatedly that we want the

:52:00. > :52:01.First Minister to play her part. I will be working closely with

:52:02. > :52:05.colleagues but the important thing is that the Guild administration --

:52:06. > :52:10.the devolved administration are intimately involved in the

:52:11. > :52:13.transition team, and also the regional assemblies, so I think the

:52:14. > :52:17.London mayor, I worked closely with him in the preparation with that

:52:18. > :52:21.debate and I have seen the cut of his jib and he is an incredibly

:52:22. > :52:25.effective and impressive individual who wants to be the voice of his

:52:26. > :52:31.city, he should be part of that negotiation team to. One thing they

:52:32. > :52:35.will ask your advice on is if the Scottish Government does, as the

:52:36. > :52:41.indications are fairly clear, that they may well at some point, call

:52:42. > :52:48.another independence referendum, it is technically in the power of the

:52:49. > :52:49.Dutch government to say no. When, -- of the British government to say

:52:50. > :52:54.Dutch government to say no. When, -- When, rather than if, your

:52:55. > :52:58.colleagues in the UK Government say, should we block this all go ahead,

:52:59. > :53:04.what would your advice be? I am a Democrat but it is too premature to

:53:05. > :53:07.talk about it... It is not premature at all. Have you not heard anything

:53:08. > :53:15.the First Minister has been saying? If you would let me finish, I think

:53:16. > :53:18.it is premature to be talking about the referendum, including the First

:53:19. > :53:25.Minister talking about it. I will talk to you in a Mormon... Can I

:53:26. > :53:27.please finish? You said you are a Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:28. > :53:30.want it and the Scottish Government Democrat, would you say that if they

:53:31. > :53:32.calls it, you should not stand in their way? First of all, there is

:53:33. > :53:36.calls it, you should not stand in not a majority of variety in the

:53:37. > :53:41.country for it, we have seen that in recent polls. I have never said it

:53:42. > :53:48.should be denied, and I did not say that last time. I am saying it is

:53:49. > :53:54.important here, this is important, what is so premature about the First

:53:55. > :53:58.Minister, within three and a half hours of votes being counted on

:53:59. > :54:01.Friday morning, standing up saying she was asking government officials

:54:02. > :54:05.to draw up the necessary legislation for a second independence

:54:06. > :54:09.referendum, we do not know what we would be voting on. Because there is

:54:10. > :54:13.not an offer to the UK Government between the UK Government and the

:54:14. > :54:16.EU. She is not suggesting having a referendum right now. She said

:54:17. > :54:20.within three and a half hours and then she repeated it in parliament

:54:21. > :54:23.on Tuesday, that she would have government officials drawing up the

:54:24. > :54:28.legislation for a second referendum. And I think that is premature, but I

:54:29. > :54:35.also think it is wrong and it is destabilising in a period of

:54:36. > :54:41.instability are ready -- already and it ill becomes her. We also do not

:54:42. > :54:45.know what is anything comes out of the talks he has been having on the

:54:46. > :54:48.continent. We do not know what the options of Scotland and it is

:54:49. > :54:56.incredibly premature to go down this road. The her to put her nationalist

:54:57. > :54:59.party viewership on it, that is not good. We know you disagree with

:55:00. > :55:02.Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying if there is a second referendum, you

:55:03. > :55:07.Nicola Sturgeon. But you are saying think as a Democrat that Scotland

:55:08. > :55:12.should be able to have it? I would argue as strong as we could but we

:55:13. > :55:16.stayed part of the single market? But he would not oppose it, you

:55:17. > :55:21.would not say the constitutionally the British gunmen should stop it?

:55:22. > :55:26.They should not block it. -- the British government should stop it.

:55:27. > :55:30.Do you see any prospects of Nicola Sturgeon's idea that there seems to

:55:31. > :55:35.be a way that Scotland could stay part of the European Union while

:55:36. > :55:41.Britain leads? Is that a runner in any way? I think it is unlikely, we

:55:42. > :55:45.have already seen a number of significant experts saying it is

:55:46. > :55:50.unlikely. I think there is a real job for the Scottish Government to

:55:51. > :55:54.do, if Nicola wants to speak to people in Brussels, then absolutely

:55:55. > :55:57.fine and dandy. I think she should also be making sure that the

:55:58. > :55:59.significant effort put in from the Scottish gunmen to be part of the UK

:56:00. > :56:04.Government's progressions right now, I want to make sure she's not just

:56:05. > :56:08.in Brussels, she is also in London. If none of this works and there is

:56:09. > :56:11.another independence referendum, obviously the SNP will fight it in a

:56:12. > :56:15.different way. They will say, this has got nothing to do with

:56:16. > :56:22.nationalism, this is a simple. Do you want to be a citizen of the

:56:23. > :56:26.European Union or a citizen of the United Kingdom? And they will say,

:56:27. > :56:28.unfortunately, you cannot be both. There will be many Conservatives in

:56:29. > :56:31.unfortunately, you cannot be both. Scotland who will find that

:56:32. > :56:35.difficult choice to make. I think she will be saying, do you want

:56:36. > :56:38.leave your biggest market or your second biggest market? You want to

:56:39. > :56:44.change currency, a hard border with the neighbour? It would be an

:56:45. > :56:49.utterly different one. I have fought to referendum campaigns now, I have

:56:50. > :56:55.had all of the Project The stuff thrown at me. Nobody now will think

:56:56. > :56:56.that you can have a huge constitutional changes that enormous

:56:57. > :57:08.economic impact. Would you rather be a citizen of the

:57:09. > :57:15.European Union or of the United Kingdom? I am on record as of saying

:57:16. > :57:22.I want to be both. But you cannot be that now. You have been very upfront

:57:23. > :57:29.about seeing a lot of the votes were not died in the wool Tories. You are

:57:30. > :57:34.saying I would like to be part of Scotland and the European Union

:57:35. > :57:39.rather than a little UK but that might not be enough this time.

:57:40. > :57:44.Coming out of the European Union does not mean we are not Europeans

:57:45. > :57:50.any more. We still have to take part in cultural instances. The Erasmus

:57:51. > :57:55.scheme. The financial services can be part of that and you do not need

:57:56. > :58:02.an EU membership to be part of it. A lot of people who voted Tory will

:58:03. > :58:06.say that is not enough. We are being taken out of the European Union

:58:07. > :58:11.against our will. I do not accept all this congruence seek that the

:58:12. > :58:17.SMP have picked on everyone voting remain therefore also wanting to be

:58:18. > :58:22.independent. People work voting on the UK to stay in the EU. The

:58:23. > :58:28.highest votes for remain were also the places where most people voted

:58:29. > :58:31.against independence so there is no congruence eh. It is wrong of the

:58:32. > :58:37.First Minister to say she takes out her. And what word a referendum

:58:38. > :58:42.result last week while those abusing a referendum results two years ago.

:58:43. > :58:46.We will have to leave it there. Shadow cabinet members are said

:58:47. > :58:49.to be drawing up plans to encourage The MPs want to broker a compromise

:58:50. > :58:53.that would preserve some of the Labour leader's key policies

:58:54. > :58:55.if he quit. Here, Kezia Dugdale called

:58:56. > :58:57.for Mr Corbyn to step aside while her deputy,

:58:58. > :58:59.Alex Rowley, supports And Jeremy Corbyn has been forced

:59:00. > :59:04.to appoint a Shadow Scottish Secretary from

:59:05. > :59:09.the north-east of England. Former First Minister and party

:59:10. > :59:29.leader Henry McLeish joins me Henry McLeish, it should Mr Corbyn

:59:30. > :59:34.go? Yes, I think he should. It is a vexed situation, very challenging

:59:35. > :59:39.for the party. The first step is for Jeremy Cooke step aside. I say that

:59:40. > :59:44.thinking about the future of the party. The Labour Party like most

:59:45. > :59:48.parties are the party of rentable and protest. It has to be a party of

:59:49. > :59:51.power. We talk about the mandate of the membership but I am also

:59:52. > :59:55.convinced we have to have some concern about the mandate of the

:59:56. > :00:01.people when we go to election. What I would say is there is some

:00:02. > :00:05.parallel with the Bernie Sanders situation in America. He brought

:00:06. > :00:08.young people into the party and increased numbers generally and came

:00:09. > :00:15.up with issues about anti-austerity and inequality. That is Jeremy's

:00:16. > :00:18.potential legacy. He can leave now knowing the Parliamentary Labour

:00:19. > :00:23.Party evidence to survive must take a different course. I think the

:00:24. > :00:28.distinction between hard left and soft left there are a set of

:00:29. > :00:32.principles people can adhere to and that we know is the way forward.

:00:33. > :00:35.Technically you should not care too much because you appear to have come

:00:36. > :00:40.out this morning in an article you wrote in the Sunday Times saying

:00:41. > :00:44.you're now in favour of independence? I said the European

:00:45. > :00:48.issue has strengthened positively the case for independence and I

:00:49. > :00:52.could thought for independence but I am also concerned for the future of

:00:53. > :00:57.all text. Throughout the Western democracies there are massive

:00:58. > :01:01.changes taking place. What happens in the United Kingdom matter whether

:01:02. > :01:06.we are in order out of the United Kingdom, in order out of Europe. It

:01:07. > :01:11.is important the party resolves its immediate issue and with the data is

:01:12. > :01:15.goodwill in the world I think enemy should now acknowledge. Let me say

:01:16. > :01:21.deaths. If you look at the history of the Labour Party at has also been

:01:22. > :01:26.about a reform not revolution. Issues like momentum, a party with

:01:27. > :01:28.any party, we cannot simply go on with this. Jeremy Cooke take the

:01:29. > :01:35.statesman-like view and carry on knowing that his issues will be

:01:36. > :01:38.carried on. Let's forget about the big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:39. > :01:42.knew saying now you would like to big issues of the Labour Party, I

:01:43. > :01:48.campaign for independence? I see no problem in doing that. I have two

:01:49. > :01:52.issues. I was devastated, it was like a believer and on Friday

:01:53. > :01:56.morning when we took that catastrophic decision to leave the

:01:57. > :02:00.European Union. I think that was a tipping point, a defined in point

:02:01. > :02:05.for me. My other frustration is what on earth can the United Kingdom

:02:06. > :02:09.government, London, Labour Party and Conservative Party dude to satisfy

:02:10. > :02:13.the aspirations of Scots which will not lead to an independent Scotland?

:02:14. > :02:17.Currently the performance has been poor. If you take the Labour Party

:02:18. > :02:20.itself, Jeremy Corbyn apart from having a lack of interest in Europe

:02:21. > :02:28.has not said anything encourage Kezia Dugdale to encourage a radical

:02:29. > :02:33.strategy which would help the United Kingdom. The time is right for us to

:02:34. > :02:37.be talking. But we are not ready for independence even if that was a

:02:38. > :02:40.reality. Have got nation-building to do, questions of the currency, the

:02:41. > :02:45.reality. Have got nation-building to fiscal deficit. It has got to reach

:02:46. > :02:49.a wider audience. What Brexit has shown us is when you have the

:02:50. > :02:52.minority voting for one thing you divide the nation and the internets.

:02:53. > :02:56.The last thing we want to look forward to is a legacy of bitterness

:02:57. > :03:03.The last thing we want to look and division in Scotland have been

:03:04. > :03:09.at the decision of one or the other. If some say we read your article in

:03:10. > :03:11.the paper with great interest and what you called the genuine

:03:12. > :03:17.progressive alliance for independence which is much broader

:03:18. > :03:21.than just the SMP, right, we are going to take you at your word, we

:03:22. > :03:27.want to start some movement which will build the board over it a

:03:28. > :03:33.number of years for independence. That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:34. > :03:39.do not think I would want to read That McLeish, will you read say? I

:03:40. > :03:44.it. I am not Jeremy, I am Gordon! Jeremy is the leader of the Labour

:03:45. > :03:49.Party! My apologies. I am sure there are better things I could have

:03:50. > :03:52.described it as. My aim is to get the Labour Party be engaged in the

:03:53. > :03:56.constitutional question. There is no point in Libra getting involved

:03:57. > :04:01.unless we can catch the constitutional issue. I want Labour

:04:02. > :04:04.even if they disagree with independence as Ruth Davidson

:04:05. > :04:08.tenting in higher approach, to engage. We have to engage or we are

:04:09. > :04:11.being squeezed out. That would be for me to illustrate the weaknesses

:04:12. > :04:16.of the current approach to independence because there are many.

:04:17. > :04:20.What it does require is, if Scots are to have a choice in the future

:04:21. > :04:23.whether it be in the European Union or in the UK, there also must be an

:04:24. > :04:29.alternative waiting to counter independence. What I am say is that

:04:30. > :04:33.my frustration has got me to a point where I want Labour to succeed in

:04:34. > :04:38.love this. I am not talking about joining independence. Many Labour

:04:39. > :04:44.Party have had to go to the SMP. This is not the preserve of the SMP.

:04:45. > :04:48.It is Scotland's future, the future of all the parties. Let me make one

:04:49. > :04:53.thing clear, it should not be the preserve, a majority issue of the

:04:54. > :04:58.centre peak, the First Minister or nationalism. Vision of Scotland is

:04:59. > :05:02.an issue for all parties which is why I am really concerned that

:05:03. > :05:05.Labour does enter that debate one way or another and helps build the

:05:06. > :05:09.progressive alliance which views the best future for Scotland regardless

:05:10. > :05:16.of whether independence is in fashion right now. I am taking a

:05:17. > :05:21.usable view of all this in the case of Scotland naughty party. Do you

:05:22. > :05:29.intend to remain a member of the Labour Party? There is nowhere else

:05:30. > :05:36.I want to go. I had an evangelical socialist grandfather and socialist

:05:37. > :05:41.grandmother. All the last few years I have agonised, written and battled

:05:42. > :05:45.to see what we is best for Scotland and the United Kingdom. I am going

:05:46. > :05:49.simply nowhere. All I want from my party is to be recognised as an

:05:50. > :05:55.engage, recognised as having a vision and being of domestic. I want

:05:56. > :06:01.the party to do that, not the SMP. I have little truck with nationalism,

:06:02. > :06:06.little truck with the idea of independence that does not have a

:06:07. > :06:10.model like Sweden, Denmark, Finland or Norway. That is the big issue for

:06:11. > :06:14.me. What about the opposite side, why can you make a comeback? Your

:06:15. > :06:20.crimes and misdemeanours are pretty much forgotten about. Look at Mr

:06:21. > :06:24.Lord who ended up back in the government. Why don't you come back

:06:25. > :06:28.and be leader of the Labour Party? You can gather by the colour of my

:06:29. > :06:39.hair I am ageing. My optimism knows no bounds. A bottle of Grecian 2000

:06:40. > :06:45.and you'd be there! My vanity might permit that. I would try. I believe

:06:46. > :06:48.in Kezia Dugdale. She is a young woman with great potential. She

:06:49. > :06:54.needs a party around her who want to engage. The principles on which the

:06:55. > :07:00.party was formed. If I can help I want to do that but it is not for

:07:01. > :07:02.me, it is for hard. OK, we will take that as a heavy hint. Thank you very

:07:03. > :07:05.much, Henry McLeish. Brexit hasn't been the only

:07:06. > :07:07.item on the EU's agenda. Two days before the referendum vote

:07:08. > :07:10.here, member states voted to extend Leaders have tied the repeal

:07:11. > :07:13.of the sanctions to progress on the Ukrainian peace deal,

:07:14. > :07:15.known as the Minsk agreement. That truce called for the handover

:07:16. > :07:18.of control of rebel-held portions of Ukraine's border with Russia

:07:19. > :07:21.to the authorities in Kiev, along with constitutional reforms

:07:22. > :07:23.that would give more autonomy to Russia-affiliated

:07:24. > :07:24.territories in eastern Ukraine. A short while ago I spoke

:07:25. > :07:29.to Natalia Galibarenko, who is the Ukrainian ambassador

:07:30. > :07:46.to the UK, and is in Edinburgh First of all it is worth reminding

:07:47. > :07:54.ourselves that the proximate cause of the demonstrations back in 2014

:07:55. > :07:55.was an accession agreement with the European Union that Ukraine had

:07:56. > :08:03.negotiated and which the then president went back on. Given that,

:08:04. > :08:07.what on earth do people in Ukraine make of what has happened in Britain

:08:08. > :08:15.over the past week? For sure I can tell you there was quite a massive

:08:16. > :08:18.misunderstanding in Ukraine. The amount of people, politicians,

:08:19. > :08:24.diplomats, what actually happened and why? What are the reasons behind

:08:25. > :08:27.the choice? Ukrainians made the choice in favour of the European

:08:28. > :08:33.Union and so that is why there was quite a misunderstanding by the

:08:34. > :08:37.British people decided otherwise. However, you know, there is the

:08:38. > :08:41.beginning of quite a profound analysis in Ukraine of why it

:08:42. > :08:46.happened. The main question now is what the British people will do

:08:47. > :08:51.next. How the new negotiations will go with the European Union. The most

:08:52. > :08:56.important question for us, what will be with the UK protester beat in the

:08:57. > :09:00.no cessation agreement because the UK was also a part of our cessation

:09:01. > :09:06.agreement and the question now is how we will also be negotiating on a

:09:07. > :09:11.bilateral basis what to do with this participation. I think the peak of

:09:12. > :09:15.panic and chaos about what happened is already over also in Ukraine and

:09:16. > :09:22.there is an understanding that despite the choice about the Brexit,

:09:23. > :09:27.the British people and Britain will remain staunch supporters of

:09:28. > :09:32.Ukraine. What are the ambitions of the current government of Mr Potter

:09:33. > :09:39.Schenkel in regards to the European Union? Do you want to go ahead with

:09:40. > :09:43.some sort of association agreement? Is the ambition eventually perhaps

:09:44. > :09:47.to become members of the European Union? In the long run of course we

:09:48. > :09:51.are looking forward to entering the European Union at some point. When

:09:52. > :09:56.the appropriate criteria will be met. Now we are looking

:09:57. > :10:00.realistically at the situation we are not ready to be a member of the

:10:01. > :10:05.European Union and the European Union is definitely not ready to

:10:06. > :10:11.embrace Ukraine at this moment. The priorities of the government now is

:10:12. > :10:15.to reform the country. To make the democracy really sustainable. To

:10:16. > :10:19.revive our economic situation and also the main challenges the

:10:20. > :10:24.security situation while we have military aggression in the east of

:10:25. > :10:29.Ukraine. What about the association agreement that caused all the

:10:30. > :10:33.controversy at the time? Is there an ambition to at least have an

:10:34. > :10:37.association agreement with the European Union or has that been

:10:38. > :10:45.cancelled because of treasure from Mr Hughton and others? You know that

:10:46. > :10:52.the cessation agreement is already underway. To say in a provisional

:10:53. > :10:56.matter. Still the complete notification and they are

:10:57. > :10:59.implemented already 90% of the agreement itself. The problem now is

:11:00. > :11:03.what to do with the Netherlands. After the Dutch referendum there

:11:04. > :11:09.should be some amendment made how the Netherlands will be covered by

:11:10. > :11:13.our cessation agreement and also as I mentioned there will be a question

:11:14. > :11:17.what to do with the UK participation in the agreement.

:11:18. > :11:29.What is the latest situation as far as you are concerned in the rebel

:11:30. > :11:33.areas in the area? Is there any possibility of those areas being

:11:34. > :11:39.fully reintegrated into Ukraine? To be frank with you, the situation is

:11:40. > :11:43.very far from positive. I am afraid that we are not in a position to

:11:44. > :11:52.speak about the forthcoming settlement or the situation on

:11:53. > :11:57.these. The problem there is the actual desire, there is no desire

:11:58. > :12:00.for the Russians to implement security on the ground. Of course,

:12:01. > :12:06.our idea is to reintegrate the areas security on the ground. Of course,

:12:07. > :12:15.into our territory and keep our country united, and also make our

:12:16. > :12:22.area free from intervention from the Russian federation. But this dance

:12:23. > :12:27.area free from intervention from the requires two dancers to play. And

:12:28. > :12:35.what about Crimea, realistically? Has Ukraine accepted that Crimea is

:12:36. > :12:38.unlikely to return? We will never accept that Crimea is annexed by the

:12:39. > :12:40.Russian Federation, and we will be trying to keep the Crimean issue on

:12:41. > :12:44.Russian Federation, and we will be the international agenda. But I

:12:45. > :12:47.Russian Federation, and we will be absolutely agree that factor, we are

:12:48. > :12:56.not controlling the Crimea, and we are more concerned about the human

:12:57. > :13:01.rights violations on the peninsular, and the Ukrainians on the peninsular

:13:02. > :13:05.are limited in their right, for examples they were forced to receive

:13:06. > :13:10.Russian passport and denied Ukrainian citizenship automatically

:13:11. > :13:19.without any permission from the people. But again, the idea is in a

:13:20. > :13:23.peaceful manner, I emphasise, in a peaceful manner to try and attract

:13:24. > :13:27.Crimean people to show that they would be more happy in the United

:13:28. > :13:35.Ukraine, not with Russian Federation. And I assume Ukraine

:13:36. > :13:39.does not accept the legitimacy of the referendum that took Crimea out

:13:40. > :13:45.of Ukraine? Of course, that was absolutely a fake referendum,

:13:46. > :13:54.organised under the guns of Russian military. 90%, or they wanted to

:13:55. > :13:59.depict 102% of voters, that does not matter. The point is that of the

:14:00. > :14:02.international community also does not recognise the Crimean referendum

:14:03. > :14:07.and the General Assembly resolution is speaking about the same. You are

:14:08. > :14:11.addressing the Scottish Parliament tomorrow, I believe, what do you

:14:12. > :14:17.want to tell them? I would be meeting with the members of the

:14:18. > :14:21.Parliament, and the Speaker of the Scottish parliament. I think there

:14:22. > :14:30.are many possibilities for Ukraine and Scotland to develop original

:14:31. > :14:39.cooperation. The crucial thing for Ukraine is reform, devolution of

:14:40. > :14:43.power. So Scotland is a very profound partner in this regard.

:14:44. > :14:49.They can share their experience, how to do this in the best way, with the

:14:50. > :14:53.demolition of power. So on the one hand -- the devolution of power. So

:14:54. > :14:57.on the one hand, if you are getting more rights, people in the local

:14:58. > :15:00.communities receive it but they also receive more responsibility. That is

:15:01. > :15:12.the combination I would like to discuss with my Scottish partner.

:15:13. > :15:18.Thank you for joining us. Next week we will see the first

:15:19. > :15:22.round of voting for the Conservative candidates, the future for Jeremy

:15:23. > :15:25.Corbyn and the publication of the Chilcott Report on Wednesday.

:15:26. > :15:27.Joining me is the political editor at the Courier, Kieran Andrews,

:15:28. > :15:29.and the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire,

:15:30. > :15:39.Do you think Corbin should go? I think he is going to have to. His

:15:40. > :15:46.position is not sustainable any more. He has had over 80% of the

:15:47. > :15:50.Parliamentary Labour Party who has said he should stand down, it is not

:15:51. > :15:52.just that, it is across the UK now. We have got members, councillors

:15:53. > :15:56.just that, it is across the UK now. calling him to go. There is no doubt

:15:57. > :16:00.that both sides feel they are battling the heart and soul of the

:16:01. > :16:05.Labour Party at the moment so I think it will get more messy before

:16:06. > :16:08.it gets better. There has always been this tension in the Labour

:16:09. > :16:12.Party, usually it muddles through, between those who think that the

:16:13. > :16:16.leader is elected by the members and should be accountable to the members

:16:17. > :16:20.of the Labour Party, and others who say, hang on, MPs are elected by

:16:21. > :16:25.millions of people, they have to do have a vote and a say in that and it

:16:26. > :16:31.is more conjugated, but Inc stream times, the division of view is

:16:32. > :16:35.becoming an extreme split. -- in extreme times. Both are members and

:16:36. > :16:39.the MPs have an important role in choosing the leader, but the problem

:16:40. > :16:46.is last year, a number of MPs allow Jeremy Corbyn on the ballot paper

:16:47. > :16:55.but did not support him, so he now has no confidence from the MPs. What

:16:56. > :16:58.would you say to those 250 people -- 250,000 people, I know some people

:16:59. > :17:03.will denigrate them as one click, they have paid their money though,

:17:04. > :17:10.and they have all supported Jeremy Corbyn. They are all going to be

:17:11. > :17:17.ignored. They are not going to be ignored. If he runs again, he will

:17:18. > :17:21.win. I am not sure. He has had a shot at the leadership, and people

:17:22. > :17:25.even who voted for him are now saying, it is not good enough. I

:17:26. > :17:28.think if he was running an efficient operation, the matter his policies,

:17:29. > :17:33.people might give him more of a chance but what we are seeing at the

:17:34. > :17:38.top of the Labour Party is a shambles. What do you make of this?

:17:39. > :17:42.The problem with the Labour rebels who want a clue here, is that they

:17:43. > :17:46.have walked Jeremy Corbyn to the bridge and failed to push him off.

:17:47. > :17:50.There is no alternative, that is not seem to be any sort of plan. It has

:17:51. > :17:54.been one of the worst cases of regicide you could possibly imagine.

:17:55. > :18:01.Regicide where you do not a chilly kill the King. -- you don't kill the

:18:02. > :18:06.king, you just growl. Yes, and there is no challenge to the throne. They

:18:07. > :18:10.are saying, Labour MPs are saying, we will knife you, but they are

:18:11. > :18:16.waving spoons around in the air. There is no challenge, it has been a

:18:17. > :18:18.botched operation so far. It is every bit as shambolic the

:18:19. > :18:28.organisers Jeremy Corbyn's leadership so far. -- shambolic Lee

:18:29. > :18:39.organised. If this is not a clue, there is party that Labour can learn

:18:40. > :18:43.from as it comes to nice stabbing. If you want a good example, Boris

:18:44. > :18:47.Johnson was dispatched by Michael Gove efficiently, swiftly and

:18:48. > :18:53.without any mercy. Stabbed from the front, back, any which way you could

:18:54. > :18:57.imagine. And now the Tories are turning on themselves down

:18:58. > :19:02.Westminster as well, there is not enough corners to brief. Where do

:19:03. > :19:06.you think Michael Gove is left? He was on TV this morning saying he

:19:07. > :19:11.stabbed Boris in the interests of the nation, will not be credible? I

:19:12. > :19:15.don't think so. There is a case that Michael Gove looked at Boris Johnson

:19:16. > :19:18.and thought, here is a man without a plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:19. > :19:22.take him out. But when you step back plan, he is not up to it, I need to

:19:23. > :19:28.and look at the way he stabbed David Cameron in the back to go and

:19:29. > :19:32.campaign for Leave, he has done the same to Boris Johnson, he does not

:19:33. > :19:36.look like trustworthy politician. What do you make of it, from your

:19:37. > :19:41.depths of your depression? At least you can laugh the Tories. At least

:19:42. > :19:50.they are, they are taking attention away from the Labour Party so that

:19:51. > :19:53.is good. To -- Theresa May is strong candidate and I think it will be

:19:54. > :19:57.difficult for anyone to beat her, it looks like she is running away from

:19:58. > :20:00.it. Assembly who wants to see the Labour Party doing well, I am very

:20:01. > :20:04.pleased that it does not look like Stephen Crabb is doing well. He is

:20:05. > :20:14.somebody who would start to reach into labour support, I think, ...

:20:15. > :20:18.Really? Yes, that working-class vote in the North who voted Leave in the

:20:19. > :20:22.referendum, if you look at his back story. I am happy that he does not

:20:23. > :20:26.appear to be getting too much attention. I think there is a huge

:20:27. > :20:31.question over Michael Gove's character. The Chilcott enquiry, it

:20:32. > :20:37.is almost forgotten, it was such a huge issue but it is going to be

:20:38. > :20:39.when the report comes out. Almost inevitably there will be calls for

:20:40. > :20:46.retribution. Absolutely. It will reignite again and it has fallen by

:20:47. > :20:50.the wayside slightly in light of the madness we have seen last week in

:20:51. > :20:55.British politics. But this will add to it and push again, there has been

:20:56. > :20:58.chat around the Houses of Parliament to it and push again, there has been

:20:59. > :21:02.that Jeremy Corbyn is hanging on just so he can do a bit of knife

:21:03. > :21:09.plunging off his own into Tony Blair when the report comes out. But the

:21:10. > :21:15.problem is, that is very critical Chilcott Report will add to the

:21:16. > :21:19.sense that politicians are all at it, they are all liars. I think the

:21:20. > :21:28.report is very important particularly to people who have lost

:21:29. > :21:32.loved ones or who have sustained injuries, this is a serious piece of

:21:33. > :21:36.work and it is a shame it has taken so long. The question is, is it

:21:37. > :21:38.going to change the way we do foreign policy in the UK, will it

:21:39. > :21:43.make a difference about how the wake we make foreign policy decisions? We

:21:44. > :21:46.will have to see it come out but I do not know if it will have an

:21:47. > :21:50.impact because I think we have already had the impact. Thank you

:21:51. > :21:53.very much. That is all we have time for this week. I will be back next

:21:54. > :21:55.week. Until then, goodbye.