:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.After Friday's failed coup, the crackdown in Turkey begins
:00:46. > :00:46.with thousands of arrests and threats of retribution,
:00:47. > :00:49.including the death penalty for rebels.
:00:50. > :00:51.What does the turmoil mean for Turkey's future,
:00:52. > :00:59.Nato and the fight against Islamic State?
:01:00. > :01:04.I wish you all the best and I am supporting you all the way. Do I get
:01:05. > :01:07.a hug? Jeremy Corbyn's confident
:01:08. > :01:09.that his fans will ensure he's re-elected - but he tells us
:01:10. > :01:11.that the rules of Labour's leadership election are unfair
:01:12. > :01:14.and the party's national executive She was a "Remainer"
:01:15. > :01:16.but Theresa May's promised to deliver on the voters' verdict
:01:17. > :01:20.and take us out of the EU - but how quickly will Brexit come
:01:21. > :01:21.and what should it look like? Coming up on
:01:22. > :01:23.Sunday Politics Scotland: I'll be talking
:01:24. > :01:24.to the First Minister, And Labour MSP Neil Findlay will be
:01:25. > :01:28.explaining why he's launching Since we broadcast last week,
:01:29. > :01:45.a new Prime Minister, a new government, carnage in Nice
:01:46. > :01:49.and an attempted coup in Turkey. The unexpected is now
:01:50. > :01:51.commonplace, major news events But one thing that doesn't change
:01:52. > :01:59.here on Sunday mornings is that we always bring you the best
:02:00. > :02:02.and the brightest political panel in the business -
:02:03. > :02:04.Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott So Friday night's attempted army
:02:05. > :02:10.coup in Turkey failed and President Erdogan has moved
:02:11. > :02:18.ruthlessly to re-establish He says the coup was "a gift from
:02:19. > :02:22.God" because it gives him a reason A major clampdown on dissent is now
:02:23. > :02:25.widely anticipated, Let's get the latest
:02:26. > :02:45.from our Correspondent Is it underway? Is it expected to be
:02:46. > :02:50.pretty ruthless? Yes. It is underway. The crackdown has already
:02:51. > :02:55.taken place. Around 3000 soldiers have been detained including
:02:56. > :03:00.high-ranking generals and around 3000 judges have been dismissed from
:03:01. > :03:07.their posts. Many judges have also been detained. President Recep
:03:08. > :03:13.Tayyip Erdogan had already said that those behind the coup attempt would
:03:14. > :03:17.be paying a heavy price and that is what we are seeing at the moment.
:03:18. > :03:24.Many people think that the crackdown will further deepen. The government
:03:25. > :03:29.thinks that the movement of Fethullah Gulen is behind this
:03:30. > :03:35.attempt. That is something that Fethullah Gulen denies. He is a
:03:36. > :03:39.cleric based in Pennsylvania, Annex aisle who used to be on good terms
:03:40. > :03:52.with the government, and Mr Hird one himself. -- Mr Erdogan. Fethullah
:03:53. > :03:58.Gulen has said he has been involved includes himself, but he played no
:03:59. > :04:04.part in this one. Although the square would normally be packed with
:04:05. > :04:07.hundreds of tourists, the beauty of Istanbul being celebrated, but last
:04:08. > :04:11.night it was a different story, packed with hundreds of supporters
:04:12. > :04:16.of the government, chanting slogans like, God is great, in protest of
:04:17. > :04:20.the coup attempt. They adhered to the call coming from President
:04:21. > :04:25.Erdogan to take it out to the streets. They were jubilant because
:04:26. > :04:30.they felt empowered, in the part they played in suppressing the coup
:04:31. > :04:36.attempt. If there was a source of resistance to President is Erdogan,
:04:37. > :04:39.it was not the army, and I would suggest that he is going to take
:04:40. > :04:43.over the army, and he will have complete control. He was already
:04:44. > :04:52.pretty authoritarian before this happened. Is Turkey now in danger of
:04:53. > :05:00.a dictatorship? That is a question that many people asked. In Turkey
:05:01. > :05:06.and in the world. People who do not necessarily aligned themselves with
:05:07. > :05:10.the government policies were already cautious about Mr Erdogan's
:05:11. > :05:15.tendencies about getting more executive powers. It is no secret
:05:16. > :05:18.that President Erdogan once to change the parliamentary system in
:05:19. > :05:23.Turkey to a presidential system which would give him powers that no
:05:24. > :05:29.other president has seen before in Turkey. And now that he has managed
:05:30. > :05:35.to suppress this coup attempt, many people in Turkey fear that this
:05:36. > :05:39.could actually play into the hands of Mr Hird one, and turn the country
:05:40. > :05:44.into an alt. Chrissie, as you have said. -- way into the hands of Mr
:05:45. > :05:50.Erdogan. But on the other hand, Mr Erdogan's supporters are jubilant
:05:51. > :05:53.and they think that this was a victory of democracy. Yesterday the
:05:54. > :05:57.Turkish parliament convened an extraordinary session and all the
:05:58. > :06:05.opposition parties supported the government. The portrayed a stand
:06:06. > :06:08.against the coup attempt. The Prime Minister thanked them and said that
:06:09. > :06:14.this could be a threshold moment for Turkish politics but considering
:06:15. > :06:20.that Turkey is a polarised country and politics is divided, whether the
:06:21. > :06:26.government can bring everybody together after these 48 hours of
:06:27. > :06:30.trauma, it is a difficult task. They give very much. -- thank you very
:06:31. > :06:31.much. We're joined by the Foreign Affairs
:06:32. > :06:38.analyst, Tim Marshall. Let's look back at what happened
:06:39. > :06:43.here. The Turkish army, traditionally does not like Islamist
:06:44. > :06:52.leaning governments and has mounted three successful coups, turning
:06:53. > :06:57.Turkey to a more secular at two secular government. What was this, a
:06:58. > :07:01.gang that could not shoot straight or the keystone cops to make a bit
:07:02. > :07:05.of both. It was white, they did most of the right things but they did not
:07:06. > :07:12.have the depth above them. Above them, they had no support. They made
:07:13. > :07:15.two massive errors. They did not kill President Erdogan. That is the
:07:16. > :07:22.first thing you should do. I am not advocating it! It is a 101 guide to
:07:23. > :07:29.coups! But that is paragraph one, kill or at least capture the
:07:30. > :07:33.president. And shut down the media. They went to the state television,
:07:34. > :07:37.and in the 20th century, all the media was in one building and you
:07:38. > :07:44.would close it down. But they forgot that in the 21st-century, there was
:07:45. > :07:50.CNN Turkey still on a, and they did not close down social media, so Mr
:07:51. > :07:56.Erdogan, who hates social media and Twitter, pepper and --
:07:57. > :08:00.hypocritically gets onto Facebook and says to Turkey, get into the
:08:01. > :08:04.streets and because the coup is white and not deep, very soon the
:08:05. > :08:09.call to prayer goes out, and they know it is not the proper time, and
:08:10. > :08:11.it means going to the street. Within half an hour, the people outnumber
:08:12. > :08:21.the troops and the pendulum swings the other way. If Turkey faces a
:08:22. > :08:28.serious clamp-down, a move from authoritarianism to something
:08:29. > :08:31.bordering on dictator -- a dictatorship, this surely has huge
:08:32. > :08:36.obligations for Turkey's relations with America and the EU? And for the
:08:37. > :08:42.fight with Islamic State. This goes from being a domestic event to one
:08:43. > :08:48.with regional and geopolitical implications. And a Nato member.
:08:49. > :08:50.It's funny, we talk about him all the time, but as your correspondent
:08:51. > :08:54.It's funny, we talk about him all said, this is a parliamentary
:08:55. > :08:58.republic, where traditionally the president is simply a figurehead but
:08:59. > :09:04.because he is so dominant and has total control of the HK party, all
:09:05. > :09:08.he had to do was switch from one job to the next. And all the power went
:09:09. > :09:14.with him because of the atmosphere at not because of the law. But he
:09:15. > :09:19.tried last year to move the powers legally into his office. He is
:09:20. > :09:24.closing down the media, he is now getting rid of the remnants in the
:09:25. > :09:36.Army that art not with him, and he has the support of the mosques and
:09:37. > :09:45.parliament. It is becoming a democratic dictatorship, a phrase I
:09:46. > :09:49.came up with for the loss of itch in Serbia, you bring two new radio
:09:50. > :09:57.stations out that broadcast so loudly that free speech is still
:09:58. > :10:00.allowed, but it cannot be heard. Remember the Civil War was the
:10:01. > :10:12.Kurds? That will just be utterly ruthless. This is a hugely historic
:10:13. > :10:16.event in Turkey's history because previous army coups have won and he
:10:17. > :10:19.will now take out the army as an independent force and it will become
:10:20. > :10:24.much more authoritarian, perhaps even autocratic. Where does this
:10:25. > :10:28.leave Western relations with Turkey? I think we can agree that it is not
:10:29. > :10:34.going to join the European Union any time soon so we can scotch that one.
:10:35. > :10:37.I think the ultimate dilemma must be for Nato. It is a security
:10:38. > :10:41.organisation but it is also an organisation defined by certain
:10:42. > :10:44.values and practices and if President Erdogan responds to the
:10:45. > :10:47.coup attempt by tightening freedoms further, by intervening against the
:10:48. > :10:52.judiciary and the Armed Forces further, then there must be a
:10:53. > :10:56.dilemma at some stage for Nato. I thought it might have been telling
:10:57. > :11:03.that three or four hours, I don't know if Tim agrees, for the US at
:11:04. > :11:06.least, if not Nato, to say anything about the coup, when they did they
:11:07. > :11:13.did not mention President Erdogan by name. I don't know if that suggests
:11:14. > :11:16.they know what side there bread is buttered on and they were waiting to
:11:17. > :11:20.see if the coup would succeed. But it is a huge event for the West and
:11:21. > :11:26.Turkey. The state was founded on secular ideals. The Armed Forces
:11:27. > :11:29.have always been seen as an invigilator of government. I am
:11:30. > :11:31.right in saying that the Turkish president has never been
:11:32. > :11:36.commander-in-chief, officially, in the way that a US president would
:11:37. > :11:41.be. Or a French president. Many people think that what he wants to
:11:42. > :11:44.do is create an executive style French presidency. You would still
:11:45. > :11:47.have a parliament and a Prime Minister but it would be the
:11:48. > :11:53.president that matters, rather than just being head of state. Turkey has
:11:54. > :11:58.been so pivotal, first of all in dealing with the migrant crisis in
:11:59. > :12:05.the eastern Mediterranean, with the situation in Syria, and Islamic
:12:06. > :12:12.State, and in the region as a regional superpower that balances
:12:13. > :12:16.Iran and even Saudi Arabia. We don't know where this is going to lead
:12:17. > :12:21.now. And has been talk for a long time about how it is massively in
:12:22. > :12:24.the interest of the West to have a stable Turkey. It has not been
:12:25. > :12:32.stable for some time and it will not be, even if this coup was a somewhat
:12:33. > :12:35.silly, ill thought through coup, it is clearly destabilising and will
:12:36. > :12:39.have consequences for a long time to come. I would be interesting to -- I
:12:40. > :12:44.would be interested to hear from Tim whether the EU has some leveraged
:12:45. > :12:49.because Turkey's desire to join it. That dynamic, although clearly not
:12:50. > :12:54.the agenda in spite of the farcical things said during the referendum
:12:55. > :13:00.campaign, that gives the EU some leveraged in reshaping what happens
:13:01. > :13:04.in Turkey. You wonder if that is even on his mind. It will not be.
:13:05. > :13:09.But the president has so many domestic fish to fry, and that might
:13:10. > :13:13.not be a very good metaphor given what he is about to do. If he is
:13:14. > :13:16.about to reintroduce the death penalty, it becomes very difficult
:13:17. > :13:22.to talk about Turkey being part of the EU. What do our diplomats do? It
:13:23. > :13:24.is in our interest to encourage the dreamer but it does not look
:13:25. > :13:35.compatible with the way that things are being carried out. Remarkably,
:13:36. > :13:38.these events in Gneiss had been overshadowed by Turkey and yet it
:13:39. > :13:42.only happened on Thursday night and this is Sunday morning. I suggest
:13:43. > :13:50.that the reaction in France to Nice is going to be very different.
:13:51. > :13:53.Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, there was great solidarity and it brought
:13:54. > :13:58.France together. I think this is different because people have had
:13:59. > :14:01.enough and it is different because there are clear security questions.
:14:02. > :14:05.No barrier on the promenade. We are told that there was a barrier when
:14:06. > :14:10.the military parades took place but it was removed after words, and
:14:11. > :14:14.already the politicians are ganging up on the government and this is
:14:15. > :14:18.becoming a major pre-election issue. That's right. The election is next
:14:19. > :14:21.year and Marine Le Pen is positioning herself very strongly
:14:22. > :14:26.with the National Front. There is a public divided on how to approach it
:14:27. > :14:31.and even if this is not Islamic State, and I am not convinced that
:14:32. > :14:36.it is, it happens in the context of Islamic State and of mass slaughter
:14:37. > :14:42.in the name of something. It is another chip away at our freedoms.
:14:43. > :14:45.And that is, in itself, a success. They are going to continue. I
:14:46. > :14:50.believe the rise of the right is far from Peking. And it plays absolutely
:14:51. > :14:58.into next year's presidential election. Going back from the
:14:59. > :15:02.presidential election, that all comes into what the EU is going to
:15:03. > :15:06.look like. We are in a state of flux. You are old enough, forgive
:15:07. > :15:11.me, Andrew, to know that everybody always says it has never been as bad
:15:12. > :15:14.as now and it is always untrue. But it is actually more corrugated than
:15:15. > :15:18.I have ever known it. And you may agree. I do agree.
:15:19. > :15:20.The Conservatives completed their leadership contest
:15:21. > :15:22.in a matter of days, Labour's has barely begun.
:15:23. > :15:25.There are now two candidates standing against Jeremy Corbyn -
:15:26. > :15:28.Angela Eagle and Owen Smith - but the Labour Leader has told us
:15:29. > :15:30.that the rules which exclude recently signed up members
:15:31. > :15:33.from voting in the contest are unfair and he wants
:15:34. > :15:34.the party's national executive to change them.
:15:35. > :15:42.Adam Fleming went for a walk in the park with Mr Corbyn.
:15:43. > :15:45.This is the lake that was built here in the 19th century,
:15:46. > :15:48.rather strange lake on the top of the hill.
:15:49. > :15:53.I went for a stroll round the Labour leader's
:15:54. > :15:59.favourite local beauty spot - Finsbury Park in north London.
:16:00. > :16:02.Do you have time to take a casual stroll with a journalist
:16:03. > :16:06.Yes, because doing things in a relaxed way is important,
:16:07. > :16:09.and doing other things is important, so going to a park, being in your
:16:10. > :16:22.However busy I am, my allotment is tended.
:16:23. > :16:25.It's in good order, we had a good crop of broad beans and we ate
:16:26. > :16:30.A slightly less relaxing part of his week.
:16:31. > :16:32.At a meeting of Labour's national executive on Tuesday,
:16:33. > :16:35.Jeremy Corbyn secured an automatic place in the leadership election.
:16:36. > :16:38.But he's not happy with new rules that say people who joined the party
:16:39. > :16:44.There's going to be some quite intense discussions over the next
:16:45. > :16:47.few days, I suspect, and I hope our party officials
:16:48. > :16:50.and National Executive will see sense on this and recognise
:16:51. > :16:55.that those people who have freely given their time and money to join
:16:56. > :16:58.the Labour Party should be welcomed in and given the opportunity to take
:16:59. > :17:01.part in this crucial debate, whichever way they decide to vote.
:17:02. > :17:07.I'm hoping there will be an understanding that it is simply
:17:08. > :17:11.not very fair to say to people that joined the party in the last six
:17:12. > :17:14.months, "sorry, your participation is no longer welcome
:17:15. > :17:20.because we are having a leadership contest."
:17:21. > :17:22.In the next few days, various Labour factions will be
:17:23. > :17:24.racing to sign people up as registered supporters,
:17:25. > :17:33.It costs ?25, not ?3 like in the last contest.
:17:34. > :17:36.For people who can't afford the 25 quid, what would you suggest
:17:37. > :17:42.If they can't afford the ?25, what they do?
:17:43. > :17:46.It seems to me the ?25 bar is quite high and not really reasonable.
:17:47. > :17:50.A lot of people have said to me, people stop me in the street saying,
:17:51. > :17:55."I would love to vote in this election but I can't afford ?25."
:17:56. > :17:58.He is also disappointed that virtually all local party meetings
:17:59. > :18:03.have been suspended over fears of intimidation.
:18:04. > :18:05.I haven't stopped party meetings taking place and I actually
:18:06. > :18:10.I think party meetings should take place.
:18:11. > :18:15.Intimidation of any sort by anybody is absolutely wrong,
:18:16. > :18:18.but to cancel meetings because of the perception that
:18:19. > :18:22.intimidation might take place I think is a big mistake.
:18:23. > :18:25.The issues appear to be that where meetings have taken place,
:18:26. > :18:28.far more people have attended than were expected and so there has
:18:29. > :18:31.been issues about how people can get in the room,
:18:32. > :18:33.whereas there's a fairly simple answer to that -
:18:34. > :18:40.Talking of meetings, who was he with when Theresa May
:18:41. > :18:45.was taking over as Prime Minister earlier this week?
:18:46. > :18:47.I was with an all-party group, including Conservatives,
:18:48. > :18:50.talking to two of the Miami five who had been in prison
:18:51. > :18:52.in Miami and were released by the court decisions of USA
:18:53. > :18:55.and the new rapprochement with Cuba and actually welcoming the fact
:18:56. > :19:02.there had been an agreement reached in Cuba.
:19:03. > :19:06.I was actually with Conservatives and Labour people.
:19:07. > :19:09.I was there for about 20 minutes, then I went back to my office
:19:10. > :19:15.And so you felt that was a good use of your time at that point
:19:16. > :19:17.when the country was transitioning from one Prime Minister to another?
:19:18. > :19:22.Informing yourself by listening to people from all kinds of walks
:19:23. > :19:28.This morning I was on the phone to friends in Istanbul and Ankara
:19:29. > :19:35.And so when an issue happens anywhere in the world,
:19:36. > :19:38.obviously I read all the briefings that I've been given,
:19:39. > :19:41.obviously I follow the news and information, but also I quite
:19:42. > :19:44.often know people in different places around the world so I call
:19:45. > :19:48.Can I get a hug for that?
:19:49. > :19:57.He also seems to know a lot of people in this park.
:19:58. > :20:00.What do you think about Angela Eagle and Owen Smith
:20:01. > :20:14.I have been trying to unregister from the Green Party so that I can
:20:15. > :20:16.register with the Labour Party so that I can support you.
:20:17. > :20:21.We were walking round with Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:22. > :20:25.What did you shout out when you saw him?
:20:26. > :20:28.I don't know what I said, something awful like...
:20:29. > :20:33.Something like "you've ruined the Labour Party".
:20:34. > :20:36.Something like, "step aside and stop ruining the Labour Party," I guess.
:20:37. > :20:41.And I couldn't let Jeremy go without introducing him to the craze
:20:42. > :20:44.sweeping the nation, Pokemon Go.
:20:45. > :20:47.He didn't seem that bothered but then he's playing a much bigger
:20:48. > :20:50.game, trying to hold onto his job, and that's no walk in the park.
:20:51. > :20:56.Our work this morning has not been in vain.
:20:57. > :20:58.And a longer version of that interview with Jeremy Corbyn
:20:59. > :21:02.We're joined now from Salford though by the Shadow
:21:03. > :21:09.Education Secretary, Angela Rayner.
:21:10. > :21:16.Welcome to the programme. Jeremy Corbyn wants to allow people who
:21:17. > :21:22.joined in the last six months of your party to vote, he thinks the
:21:23. > :21:26.?25 fee is too high. Isn't it just typical of the chaos Labour is now
:21:27. > :21:32.in that you are holding a leadership contest before you have agreed
:21:33. > :21:35.rules? Good morning, I think it's important we recognise the Labour
:21:36. > :21:41.Party is transformed with now over half a million members joined, which
:21:42. > :21:44.is fantastic. We are the largest democratic social party across
:21:45. > :21:51.Europe. For me it is about democracy. I asked about the rules,
:21:52. > :21:55.should you be having a contest before you have agreed rules? The
:21:56. > :22:00.rules were decided at the NEC meeting which lasted seven hours,
:22:01. > :22:06.quite a lengthy marathon... You want to change them? People need to
:22:07. > :22:11.reflect upon the current situation and there has been outrage. 130,000
:22:12. > :22:16.people have joined since the referendum, and we have got to give
:22:17. > :22:22.them the opportunity to have their voice heard. Have these 130,000 that
:22:23. > :22:28.joined after the referendum been properly vetted? That is a situation
:22:29. > :22:33.that the NEC and our party has got to approve and go through. We did it
:22:34. > :22:41.last time, we had a huge number of people join our party recently. Have
:22:42. > :22:48.that number been vetted or not? You have got to allow democracy. What we
:22:49. > :22:53.do is we ensure we get more people, more staff, more ability to deal
:22:54. > :22:57.with that issue because democracy is important, it is enshrined. Hold on,
:22:58. > :23:01.you are starting the leadership campaign and you still haven't
:23:02. > :23:06.vetted those who may be allowed to vote, that's what I mean by chaos,
:23:07. > :23:10.if not fast. I don't think it's chaotic to have over half a million
:23:11. > :23:17.people join our party and want to have a say, it is a positive step.
:23:18. > :23:20.It is if you cannot vet them come you don't know if they are members
:23:21. > :23:26.of the Socialist workers party, the Greens, the Communists, the National
:23:27. > :23:32.front, the Conservatives. You have no idea. We have 130,000 people who
:23:33. > :23:37.have joined in the last three weeks, which the Conservative Party have
:23:38. > :23:41.around 150,000 members per se. We have over half a million members so
:23:42. > :23:45.we are doing a great job. The Trotskyists and other groups you are
:23:46. > :23:49.suggesting may be trying to join our party, they are not in the great
:23:50. > :23:53.numbers we see at the moment. It is important to give people a say about
:23:54. > :24:00.the future of our country and party. I love democracy. Will you
:24:01. > :24:05.definitely be voting for Mr Corbyn this time because you didn't last
:24:06. > :24:10.time. No, I supported Andy Burnham last time, but I recognise Jeremy
:24:11. > :24:14.Corbyn had a significant mandate to lead our party. I don't think it's
:24:15. > :24:20.time to have a leadership contest. I will not be nominating another
:24:21. > :24:25.candidate, I will be recognising our democratically elected leader. I
:24:26. > :24:38.asked who you will be voting for. I will be supporting -- our
:24:39. > :24:43.democratically elected leader. Can you say the words, I will vote for
:24:44. > :24:46.Jeremy Corbyn? I have made it clear what my position is, and that's
:24:47. > :24:56.about democracy and our members making... Are you or aren't you? I
:24:57. > :25:00.have told you I will be supporting our democratically elected leader of
:25:01. > :25:06.our party. I want to hold the Government to account, we have a
:25:07. > :25:13.bill coming up on Tuesday... I'm puzzled, are you voting for Mr
:25:14. > :25:16.Corbyn? Your viewers want to see us holding this Government to account.
:25:17. > :25:22.I have tried to answer your question but you don't want to listen to my
:25:23. > :25:27.answer. Could you name the person you will be voting for in this
:25:28. > :25:31.election? I will be listening to our membership and in the meantime
:25:32. > :25:34.holding the Government to account and supporting our democratically
:25:35. > :25:44.elected leader of our party, which is Jeremy Corbyn. A new poll shows
:25:45. > :25:49.Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn 58% to 19, on who would make the better
:25:50. > :25:53.Prime Minister. It shows 40% of Labour voters think Theresa May
:25:54. > :25:59.would make a better Prime Minister. Why are you backing, if you are, I'm
:26:00. > :26:04.still not clear, why are you backing a loser? Our party is seen as quite
:26:05. > :26:10.divided and divided parties never win elections. We don't disagree on
:26:11. > :26:13.policy points, we have to get our policy points across to the
:26:14. > :26:17.electorate and then they will decide. Theresa May has the
:26:18. > :26:21.challenge of bringing her Conservative Party together. There
:26:22. > :26:25.was no competition, no democracy within the Conservative Party in
:26:26. > :26:29.terms of who they wanted as leader. She has a job to do because the
:26:30. > :26:35.country has never been more divided than it is now and that's directly
:26:36. > :26:41.as a result of the Conservatives. You all seem to have a job to do.
:26:42. > :26:47.Speaking of Mrs May, is the Labour Party now the nasty party? No,
:26:48. > :26:51.Theresa May had it right, the Conservatives continue to be so.
:26:52. > :26:56.They are cutting education funding by up to 8% in this Parliament, they
:26:57. > :27:02.want to prioritise the NHS and have already been creeping that in. They
:27:03. > :27:06.are not on the side of ordinary people in this country. Theresa May
:27:07. > :27:10.has said she wants the Conservatives to be a party for everybody and
:27:11. > :27:17.working people across the country. Now her words have to be matched by
:27:18. > :27:21.actions. Let me ask you this about Labour. Meetings of constituency
:27:22. > :27:28.Labour parties have been suspended from fear of intimidation. There are
:27:29. > :27:32.death threats and violence, a brick thrown through the window of the
:27:33. > :27:39.office block where Angela Eagle's constituency is housed. Police have
:27:40. > :27:45.had to investigate. I ask again, is it not Labour that is the nasty
:27:46. > :27:48.party? I think any act of abuse and intimidation is disgusting in
:27:49. > :27:51.politics and many politicians from all sides of the house have had
:27:52. > :27:55.death threats and threats of violence, and that has got to be
:27:56. > :28:02.stamped out of a modern democracy. Why is it in the Labour Party this
:28:03. > :28:05.is happening? It happens across the spectrum in politics and it is
:28:06. > :28:10.disgusting. But it cannot stop democracy either, we have got to
:28:11. > :28:14.continue to uphold and enshrined our democracy in everything we do
:28:15. > :28:18.because it is important. It means a lot to a lot of people but you
:28:19. > :28:22.cannot win on democracy by abusing, threatening and intimidating the
:28:23. > :28:26.other side of the argument. You have got to have a constructive debate
:28:27. > :28:29.and people have got to have their democratic right to vote. Thanks for
:28:30. > :28:32.being with us this morning. Now, despite signing up
:28:33. > :28:34.to David Cameron's Remain strategy, our new Prime Minister has put
:28:35. > :28:37.navigating the UK's departure from the EU and retaining
:28:38. > :28:39.the union at the centre We're joined now by the Conservative
:28:40. > :28:43.MP and former attorney-general The appointment of three key Cabinet
:28:44. > :28:45.positions to Brexiteers - Boris Johnson, David Davis,
:28:46. > :28:48.and Liam Fox - reflects this. A few days before his appointment,
:28:49. > :28:50.the Brexit Secretary set out how he'd proceed
:28:51. > :28:55.with separation from the EU. He said triggering new trade talks
:28:56. > :28:57.were a priority and wanted the UK
:28:58. > :28:59.to negotiate free-trade deals with Mr Davis believes the UK should not
:29:00. > :29:07.budge on control of our borders, but the tariff-free access to the EU
:29:08. > :29:10.single market is still his preferred The Brexit Secretary
:29:11. > :29:16.acknowledged that talks with the Scottish, Welsh, and
:29:17. > :29:18.Northern Ireland governments And Theresa May made the first step
:29:19. > :29:23.on Thursday, telling Nicola Sturgeon in Edinburgh
:29:24. > :29:25.that she is willing to listen to options on Scotland's future
:29:26. > :29:26.relationship Mrs May said Britain
:29:27. > :29:33.would not rush into Brexit negotiations and would need
:29:34. > :29:35.some time to prepare. However, Mr Davis said
:29:36. > :29:37.Article 50 should be and mean Britain would be out
:29:38. > :29:46.of the EU by January We're joined now by the Conservative
:29:47. > :29:52.MP and former attorney-general Dominic Grieve, who campaigned
:29:53. > :29:55.for Remain, and the Labour MP who chaired the Vote Leave campaign,
:29:56. > :30:04.Gisela Stewart. We are joined by Dominic Grieve and
:30:05. > :30:15.the chairman of the boat Leave campaign, Gisela Stuart. -- Vote
:30:16. > :30:18.Leave. As Theresa May delivered? I think she has. I think it was
:30:19. > :30:25.important that you made clear that Brexit meant Brexit. We had to make
:30:26. > :30:29.a clear that there was no second referendum in the offering. That
:30:30. > :30:32.required certainty for the country. Are you satisfied with that? I am
:30:33. > :30:37.completely satisfied with her approach, yes. It is clear that the
:30:38. > :30:41.vote, as expressed in the referendum, has to be respected. We
:30:42. > :30:46.have to take forward a programme for removing the United Kingdom from the
:30:47. > :30:51.EU. Really that is going to be an immensely comported process and it
:30:52. > :30:55.also carries with it economic risks, certainly in the short to medium
:30:56. > :31:00.term. I am also open-minded as to how one best does that. I think
:31:01. > :31:04.we're going to have to respond to events as well as trying to shape
:31:05. > :31:09.them. We have seen a blueprint published by my friend and
:31:10. > :31:15.colleague, David Davis, about Britain's outside the EU. I expect
:31:16. > :31:19.that 99.9% of conservatives would subscribe to that but getting to it
:31:20. > :31:23.is more congregated. We need to unpick this bit by bit. When do we
:31:24. > :31:30.trigger article 50? You need to go in reverse, like a reverse accession
:31:31. > :31:36.process. The most important thing is trade negotiations. As I understand
:31:37. > :31:45.that you cannot have a bilateral agreement unless you have notified
:31:46. > :31:51.Article 50. But you must have some idea of the time? The sooner the
:31:52. > :31:55.better. When do you think we should trigger article 50. I think we
:31:56. > :31:58.should trigger at when there is some clarity as to what the scope of the
:31:59. > :32:03.negotiations that will follow will be. This is the first big hurdle.
:32:04. > :32:09.Clearly if our European partners do not want to negotiate with us at
:32:10. > :32:12.all, even informally, prior to triggering Article 50, that might
:32:13. > :32:16.presents difficulties but from the point of view of the Prime Minister,
:32:17. > :32:20.she will make up her own mind. Actually getting some clear idea of
:32:21. > :32:22.what it is that the United Kingdom is seeking in terms of a future
:32:23. > :32:28.relationship is going to very important. And I think it is
:32:29. > :32:33.impossible to give a particular time frame. But I agree with Gisela
:32:34. > :32:38.Stuart. But the time frame has to work and it has to be done in good
:32:39. > :32:42.time for the 2020 election, so you can work back from that. I think you
:32:43. > :32:46.can, but I think that she needs, the Prime Minister needs to be given
:32:47. > :32:50.maximum flexibility about this because boxing herself in to how she
:32:51. > :32:52.goes about what is going to be one of the most difficult political
:32:53. > :32:56.transformations this country has gone through in modern times, I
:32:57. > :33:01.think that requires pragmatism. Does it require a vote of Parliament to
:33:02. > :33:06.trigger Article 50? Not necessarily. Let's come back to something. This
:33:07. > :33:10.is not just about our relationship with the EU, it is our relationship
:33:11. > :33:18.with the rest of the world. Triggering Article 50 has also been
:33:19. > :33:23.interpreted into how we talk with other countries. But we can talk
:33:24. > :33:27.with them without concluding deals? But in terms of negotiations, there
:33:28. > :33:33.comes a point that to make it meaningful, you have to trigger it.
:33:34. > :33:38.But I want to ask you, do we need a vote in parliament to trigger
:33:39. > :33:42.Article 50? Undoubtedly. It is a matter of convention. The idea that
:33:43. > :33:46.a government could take a decision of such massive importance to the
:33:47. > :33:49.United Kingdom without Parliamentary approval, it seems to me to be
:33:50. > :33:55.extremely far-fetched. It is not about law. It is about convention
:33:56. > :33:59.and reality. Do you agree? I can see the arguments from both sides but I
:34:00. > :34:03.don't think you absolutely have to do it. We have not got a lot of
:34:04. > :34:08.time, would you vote for triggering Article 50? Yes. I have made it
:34:09. > :34:14.quite clear that the result of the referendum must mean that we have to
:34:15. > :34:18.be willing to embark on the process. I put in one rider to that which is
:34:19. > :34:23.that it seems to me that any sensible decision has to be made at
:34:24. > :34:28.the time you make it. But that is not a suggestion that I am going to
:34:29. > :34:31.suddenly decide not to support triggering Article 50, but
:34:32. > :34:34.triggering Article 50 is an important political step to withdraw
:34:35. > :34:39.from the EU. One has to keep that in mind. Do you worry that people like
:34:40. > :34:44.Dominic Grieve are teeing themselves up to call for a second referendum
:34:45. > :34:47.on the nature of the deal we will do? I do. I think if there is one
:34:48. > :34:50.on the nature of the deal we will thing the European Union is very
:34:51. > :34:54.good at, it is that when political necessity is in the interest of both
:34:55. > :34:59.sides, they are capable of rewriting the rules. So the European Union
:35:00. > :35:05.itself has to look at the problems it faces, and then at what the best
:35:06. > :35:08.deal is. There is a danger that those who do not like the outcome of
:35:09. > :35:12.the referendum get themselves hooked on Article 50, rather than saying
:35:13. > :35:17.that there is a new reality out there and we need to deal with that
:35:18. > :35:20.in the interests of the United Kingdom. If you could bring it
:35:21. > :35:25.about, you would have a second referendum, wouldn't you? Not
:35:26. > :35:29.necessarily. The justification for having a second referendum is if the
:35:30. > :35:33.circumstances that prevail at the time and justify it because there is
:35:34. > :35:37.some legitimate question to put to the electorate. I am very wary of
:35:38. > :35:41.circumscribing oneself. The referendum is no different from the
:35:42. > :35:44.general election in this sense. It is a statement at the time of what
:35:45. > :35:48.people want in terms of the way policy is taken forward. If people's
:35:49. > :35:54.opinions change, it would be extraordinary. And I think the only
:35:55. > :35:58.way you can judge that is by looking and listening to what people are
:35:59. > :36:04.saying to you. Opinion polls can measure it. Like the opinion polls
:36:05. > :36:09.that told you your site was going to win the referendum? I am not sure I
:36:10. > :36:16.ever believe those polls. But they did. If you take a decision on the
:36:17. > :36:20.base of those polls... But what is the question that one might be
:36:21. > :36:30.asking. What the public have asked us to do is quite clear. They have
:36:31. > :36:35.given, by a majority of 1.2 million people, not insubstantial, they have
:36:36. > :36:39.said they want a fundamental change to the UK's relationship with the EU
:36:40. > :36:43.and they see that relationship as being one where we are outside of
:36:44. > :36:48.it. I have to respect that. And we have not got much time so I am going
:36:49. > :36:53.to interrupt. You have had a good save. Gisela Stuart, here is the
:36:54. > :36:57.point. There is a lot of people on the Labour side listening to Dominic
:36:58. > :37:01.Grieve and nodding their heads. Owen Smith, one of the leadership
:37:02. > :37:04.contenders, he basically wants a second referendum, and you are going
:37:05. > :37:07.to have to start gearing up for that. Do you fear that this could be
:37:08. > :37:10.foisted upon you? I think it would that. Do you fear that this could be
:37:11. > :37:15.be a disastrous step because both political parties need to search why
:37:16. > :37:18.they were so out of step with the electorate, particularly the Labour
:37:19. > :37:22.Party. It is a Parliamentary democracy were we get elected to do
:37:23. > :37:25.a job and that is to either hold the government to account or to be the
:37:26. > :37:30.government. We have asked them and they have reflected, in large
:37:31. > :37:34.numbers, they have said that we want to leave. And they expect us to get
:37:35. > :37:37.on with the job. I am sorry to rush you but we have been short of time.
:37:38. > :37:39.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:40. > :37:49.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland and Wales, who leave us
:37:50. > :37:51.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:52. > :37:56.Nicola Sturgeon tells this programme Theresa May did not tell her
:37:57. > :38:04.the British Government would block a second independence referendum.
:38:05. > :38:06.Labour's Neil Findlay is here to explain why
:38:07. > :38:09.And if all that's not enough for you,
:38:10. > :38:12.because Tory grandee and former Foreign Secretary
:38:13. > :38:14.Sir Malcolm Rifkind is here too, with some entertaining views
:38:15. > :38:23.on Boris Johnson, among other things.
:38:24. > :38:26.On Friday, Theresa May made her first visit to Scotland
:38:27. > :38:28.as Prime Minister and seemed to suggest that Article 50
:38:29. > :38:30.would only be triggered with the agreement
:38:31. > :38:33.Since then, there has been much speculation
:38:34. > :38:39.could it only go ahead with Scotland's backing?
:38:40. > :38:41.Such a move would put Nicola Sturgeon at the heart
:38:42. > :38:45.But it would be at odds with what the new Brexit Minister
:38:46. > :38:50.He has made it clear that he wants to see Article 50 enacted
:38:51. > :38:57.Since the First Minister has made it clear she is determined
:38:58. > :38:59.both positions surely cannot be tenable.
:39:00. > :39:02.Well, shortly before we came on air, Nicola Sturgeon came into the studio
:39:03. > :39:09.and I asked her if she believed she had a veto.
:39:10. > :39:18.I didn't use that word, but I do think Scotland's got a strong
:39:19. > :39:25.position right now. In the talks I had with Theresa May she said that
:39:26. > :39:28.she would listen to options that the Scottish Government brings forward
:39:29. > :39:33.to give effect to have Scotland voted within the wider UK context.
:39:34. > :39:38.After the meeting she said she would not trigger article 50 unless she
:39:39. > :39:40.thought she had a set of circumstances that were acceptable
:39:41. > :39:45.to the whole of the UK. But she didn't say that to you.
:39:46. > :39:48.It's an extension of what we talked about.
:39:49. > :39:53.I think we've got a window of opportunity that -- between what is
:39:54. > :39:56.back where we are now and the triggering of article 50, to see if
:39:57. > :40:01.there is a way of effectively squaring the circle, a way that
:40:02. > :40:04.Scotland can protect its relationship with the EU in line
:40:05. > :40:09.with how Scotland voted. I am not going to sit here today and
:40:10. > :40:14.say that is possible, there are significant challenges along the
:40:15. > :40:18.way, but I've always -- also said repeatedly that I'm going to examine
:40:19. > :40:21.all options to protect Scotland's's interests.
:40:22. > :40:25.But you would be in favour of Scotland and ended the UK staying as
:40:26. > :40:30.part of the single market? Of course. Is it your understanding
:40:31. > :40:35.that if the Scotland Government says that has to be a bottom line in
:40:36. > :40:40.whatever is being negotiated with Europe, that you could stop her
:40:41. > :40:44.triggering article 50 and you get that?
:40:45. > :40:48.I don't know did -- definitively what the answer to that is, we're in
:40:49. > :40:52.the bizarre situation where the UK Government doesn't even appear yet
:40:53. > :40:56.to know what relationship it is seeking to help with the European
:40:57. > :41:01.Union. I've had over the last few days since Theresa May became Prime
:41:02. > :41:04.Minister different ministers in her Government articulate different
:41:05. > :41:08.positions on whether or not the UK should remain in the single market.
:41:09. > :41:12.So I think we are at such an early stage of this process that it is not
:41:13. > :41:17.possible to answer these definitively.
:41:18. > :41:20.But did Theresa May says she would not trigger article 50 until she had
:41:21. > :41:27.you on board? She said she would listen to all
:41:28. > :41:32.options. Now, what exactly the interpretation
:41:33. > :41:37.of that turns out to be, we will have to wait and see. But we have a
:41:38. > :41:42.window of opportunity. We've already started work to look at, in these
:41:43. > :41:48.unprecedented time, whether there are ways of protecting Scotland's
:41:49. > :41:52.relationship within a UK context. Will that proved to be possible? I
:41:53. > :41:57.can say at this stage, but I've got a duty to examine all options.
:41:58. > :42:02.And if it proves impossible to protect the interests of Scotland,
:42:03. > :42:09.jobs, investment, universities, our rights as citizens, within the UK,
:42:10. > :42:14.then of course we have to have the option of considering independence
:42:15. > :42:19.on the table. Before we move on, I want to ask you
:42:20. > :42:24.something else about these discussions. She was very strong
:42:25. > :42:31.afterwards in saying she didn't think there needed to be another
:42:32. > :42:37.independence referendum. Did she, in your talks, say that the UK
:42:38. > :42:40.Government would block you holding another referendum?
:42:41. > :42:43.She didn't say she would block a referendum, and interestingly in the
:42:44. > :42:50.interview I had afterwards she didn't say that after. -- either.
:42:51. > :42:54.She said she didn't want Scotland to become independent, I don't think
:42:55. > :42:58.anybody's going to be surprised that that is her position. But we've also
:42:59. > :43:03.heard in recent days, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, the
:43:04. > :43:12.Secretary of State for Scotland, saying they don't think it would be
:43:13. > :43:18.right if the UK blocked a referendum that wanted independence.
:43:19. > :43:25.But did she say what Ms Davidson said, that they would not do that?
:43:26. > :43:28.Our discussions were focusing on the process that is about to get
:43:29. > :43:35.underway in the aftermath of the Brexit phone. I said already that in
:43:36. > :43:42.the circumstances Scotland now finds itself in, which is facing exit from
:43:43. > :43:44.the EU against its will, if in these circumstances a Scottish parliament
:43:45. > :43:47.decided that the only way to protect our interests was to offer the
:43:48. > :43:50.Scottish people the choice of independence, I find it
:43:51. > :43:54.inconceivable that any UK Government stand on of that.
:43:55. > :43:59.You seem a bit unclear on whether you have been handed a veto over the
:44:00. > :44:05.triggering of article 50 or not. If you are asking whether I think
:44:06. > :44:08.Theresa May will never ever trigger article 50 unless we are saying I am
:44:09. > :44:12.happy with the direction the UK is taken, I don't know that is the
:44:13. > :44:17.case, but she did seem to indicate that she wanted, as I want, to see
:44:18. > :44:21.if we can find options that respect how Scotland voted, just as I
:44:22. > :44:25.respect how England and Wales voted. So I'm going to take that window of
:44:26. > :44:31.opportunity to see if we can find these options. That is in line with
:44:32. > :44:35.what I committed to doing in the morning after the referendum.
:44:36. > :44:39.Should it come to December when they might trigger article 50, and you
:44:40. > :44:44.are not satisfied, but you are not on board, and the British Government
:44:45. > :44:47.says, we are doing this anyway, realistically is there anything you
:44:48. > :44:52.can do? I did this out the morning after the
:44:53. > :44:55.referendum. I am also in parallel to this discussion is making sure that
:44:56. > :44:58.the Scottish Parliament is making preparations to have another
:44:59. > :45:03.independence referendum if we find ourselves in that position.
:45:04. > :45:06.But would you take that as a trigger point for a referendum?
:45:07. > :45:09.I don't want to get too far ahead, but of course that would be an
:45:10. > :45:13.option that I would have to to consider.
:45:14. > :45:18.What, in six months' time? Is whether we had found it
:45:19. > :45:22.impossible to protect Scotland's interests in the UK. I am going to
:45:23. > :45:25.play as far as I can, with a straight bat here, and come at this
:45:26. > :45:33.Scotland's interests. Scotland's interests.
:45:34. > :45:37.-- of protecting. But would you want a referendum of independence say in
:45:38. > :45:39.the first half of next year? I will have one if I come to a
:45:40. > :45:43.conclusion but I think that is in I will have one if I come to a
:45:44. > :45:48.the interests of Scotland. I've always said that. My job is to seek
:45:49. > :45:52.to protect Scottish interests. It would be up to the Scottish people
:45:53. > :45:57.to decide whether they thought that was the way to go.
:45:58. > :46:01.But it's up to you when it would be. Absolutely, I will seek to take
:46:02. > :46:05.these decisions as far as I possibly can in line with what I judged to be
:46:06. > :46:10.in the best interests of our economy, of business, of jobs, of
:46:11. > :46:15.our universities, of our freedom to travel. All of these interests that
:46:16. > :46:18.are no potentially seriously damaged by the Brexit vote. Where you
:46:19. > :46:25.offered or do you expect to be offered as a Government, as you
:46:26. > :46:28.personally, a formal role in the Brexit negotiations? I expect the
:46:29. > :46:35.Scottish Parliament to be fully involved. But you would be
:46:36. > :46:38.negotiating with Europe? This process, and I'm not trying to dodge
:46:39. > :46:42.these questions, but my ability to answer this question rests on the UK
:46:43. > :46:46.Government getting its act together. We don't yet know what shape this
:46:47. > :46:52.process is going to take. Theresa May gave me a commitment to the
:46:53. > :46:56.Scottish parliament being centrally involved in this process. So our
:46:57. > :47:02.officials are already talking to those of the UK Government as they
:47:03. > :47:05.begin to shape this process. But would you expect your officials to
:47:06. > :47:12.be involved in negotiations with Europe alongside David Davis? Was
:47:13. > :47:16.any formal offer made to you? Theresa May doesn't yet know what
:47:17. > :47:21.this process looks like from a UK perspective. She has said we will be
:47:22. > :47:27.centrally involved, but that extra bit of a commitment is that that is
:47:28. > :47:32.not an involvement in a process that just accept as inevitable Scotland's
:47:33. > :47:37.except from EU, it is a process that options that the Scottish Government
:47:38. > :47:42.bring forward will be is considered. Is one of the things you would want
:47:43. > :47:46.before you got on board the way Theresa May indicated, would you
:47:47. > :47:49.want separate Scottish powers over immigration? That's one of those
:47:50. > :47:53.issues were already, putting the Brexit vote to one side, there is a
:47:54. > :47:56.tension between what is in the entrance of Scotland and what
:47:57. > :48:05.appears to be the direction of the UK Government. We have a case now of
:48:06. > :48:08.a family... But I'm want to smack I'm looking for an indication of
:48:09. > :48:15.whether that is something you would want the power over. I'm not going
:48:16. > :48:18.to get into specifics, because we don't yet know what the UK
:48:19. > :48:22.Government is going to try to achieve or how this process is going
:48:23. > :48:27.to go forward. But as to the issue of freedom of movement, we are in
:48:28. > :48:30.the single market right now, we have freedom of movement, which is not
:48:31. > :48:35.just the right of people to come to this party is my country, but the
:48:36. > :48:38.right of all of us to go on travel and study in other countries,
:48:39. > :48:51.Scotland voted to retain to all of these rights and that is what I have
:48:52. > :48:55.got to achieve -- fight to achieve. In the more medium term, is it your
:48:56. > :48:58.idea that if you are to have another independence referendum, I think you
:48:59. > :49:05.said on this programme a couple of weeks ago you would like to have it
:49:06. > :49:10.before Britain actually left the EU. For that to work, you are presumably
:49:11. > :49:16.want some sort of commitment by the EU that Scotland would either never
:49:17. > :49:22.leave the EU or the fast track -- or be fast tracked back in. I think I
:49:23. > :49:29.did say this on this programme, of course it makes sense. I'm using the
:49:30. > :49:32.term "If". This is speculative at this stage, but if we are in the
:49:33. > :49:36.situation of considering independence again, of course makes
:49:37. > :49:40.sense for that to happen before the UK leads the EU.
:49:41. > :49:46.But if you don't get that commitment, it doesn't matter when
:49:47. > :49:49.you have a referendum. There are all sorts of unknowns and uncertainties.
:49:50. > :49:54.I'm in a position I did not choose to be in. My job as First Minister
:49:55. > :49:58.is to seek to navigate Scotland through these uncertainties. We
:49:59. > :50:03.don't net know what the timescale for the UK will be. We heard Philip
:50:04. > :50:07.Hammond say in the House of Commons last week he thought it would take
:50:08. > :50:12.six years for the UK to exit the EU. So some of the uncertainty we are
:50:13. > :50:17.facing just now draws inevitables on the referendum... The scenario...
:50:18. > :50:20.facing just now draws inevitables on The UK Government does not yet have
:50:21. > :50:25.a grip on where it wants to take its relationship. That Scotland could
:50:26. > :50:31.somehow leave or be fast tracked, has anyone in the EU given you any
:50:32. > :50:38.indication that might be possible? We are weeks away -- on from a
:50:39. > :50:40.referendum when there was massive uncertainty and you exit me to say
:50:41. > :50:46.we have absolute certainty! These are discussion we will be having.
:50:47. > :50:51.But nobody in Europe gave you any reason to believe that? Firstly, I
:50:52. > :50:55.was not asking for that commitment, I was going to make sure there was
:50:56. > :50:58.an understanding across Europe of the different positions Scotland was
:50:59. > :51:04.in and that we wanted a different outcome. But when I went to Europe,
:51:05. > :51:10.I found a warmth of response and an openness and sympathy that the
:51:11. > :51:15.Scottish Government did not find... But the commitment? I was not asking
:51:16. > :51:18.for hard and fast commitments. As we go through these process, I go back
:51:19. > :51:22.to what I said on the morning after the referendum, I will be frank with
:51:23. > :51:27.the people of Scotland about the opportunities and challenges we
:51:28. > :51:30.face. But we did not ask to be in this position, so we have to
:51:31. > :51:34.navigate the best way through for Scotland and that is what I remain
:51:35. > :51:41.focused on doing. Another big subject coming up, Trident, you are
:51:42. > :51:45.calling for a vote in the House of Commons to be delayed, why? Is it
:51:46. > :51:50.that you think there is a realist to prospect that you, together with
:51:51. > :51:55.other people, could stop it? -- a realistic prospect. I would love to
:51:56. > :52:03.think so. Whether it is tomorrow or at any point, the SNP will vote
:52:04. > :52:07.against its renewal. By delayed? We are still in a period of huge
:52:08. > :52:11.uncertainty for the principal party of opposition is in chaos, the party
:52:12. > :52:15.of government has been in chaos for the last few weeks, there has not
:52:16. > :52:18.been the opportunity to focus properly on the massive issues that
:52:19. > :52:24.are involved in a decision like Trident. Do you think there is a
:52:25. > :52:27.chance that enough MPs will vote against it? I would hope so but it
:52:28. > :52:32.will give people a chance to properly scrutinise this decision,
:52:33. > :52:34.which has not been, and I think it is wrong to have this decision as a
:52:35. > :52:38.way of playing games with the chaos is wrong to have this decision as a
:52:39. > :52:42.in the opposition, which I think is what the Tories are trying to do.
:52:43. > :52:43.Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much.
:52:44. > :52:46.As Secretary of State for Scotland under Margaret Thatcher,
:52:47. > :52:48.then Defence and later Foreign Secretary under John Major,
:52:49. > :52:52.Sir Malcolm Rifkind has held some of the major offices of state.
:52:53. > :52:58.Shortly before we came on air, he came into our London studio.
:52:59. > :53:05.I'm curious as to what you make of what Theresa May has told Nicola
:53:06. > :53:10.Sturgeon at the end of last week, that she wants all the nations on
:53:11. > :53:15.board before she triggers Article 50. Do you interpret that as a veto?
:53:16. > :53:16.No, I don't and I don't think anyone else would seriously think it should
:53:17. > :53:21.be. The United Kingdom else would seriously think it should
:53:22. > :53:24.has to have the last word on our foreign policy and our relationships
:53:25. > :53:30.with the rest of the world. She is saying, I'm sure, that you
:53:31. > :53:34.understands that there is a specific Scottish dimension as well as Wales
:53:35. > :53:38.and Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that there
:53:39. > :53:43.should be constant dialogue with particularly Scotland and Northern
:53:44. > :53:46.Ireland on their view of the way things are going. So that the
:53:47. > :53:52.Scottish Government says, well, for example, we insist on retaining
:53:53. > :53:59.access to the single market and that is not what David Davis once, you
:54:00. > :54:02.think he rules? I don't think we should speculate at the beginning of
:54:03. > :54:07.this process, and the UK clop-mac will spend the next few months
:54:08. > :54:12.deciding what it is because heating, what its era of compromise might be,
:54:13. > :54:15.where it could be flexible, it will want to hear views from Northern
:54:16. > :54:20.Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It is the UK Government that must take
:54:21. > :54:23.that decision because it is the only body that it can take it as a
:54:24. > :54:27.perceived the needs of the whole of these islands. One other thing that
:54:28. > :54:33.Nicola Sturgeon said was that Theresa May did not say to her that
:54:34. > :54:39.if she planned another independence referendum, that the UK Government
:54:40. > :54:43.would try to block it. That is Theresa May, we have had Ruth
:54:44. > :54:45.Davidson saying the British... Should not block another referendum
:54:46. > :54:52.and we have David Mundell as well. Do you agree? The crucial point is
:54:53. > :54:57.that nobody, including Nicola Sturgeon, is pressing for a decision
:54:58. > :55:00.on a referendum or another referendum in the immediate future.
:55:01. > :55:05.They all realise, Nicola Sturgeon as much as Theresa May, that it would
:55:06. > :55:10.not serve any reasonable interest. All evidence indicates that Scotland
:55:11. > :55:14.as a whole does not want another referendum, only a minority of
:55:15. > :55:17.people see that as being appropriate, and I think Nicola very
:55:18. > :55:22.wisely has remembered, as we all did, that in the last referendum not
:55:23. > :55:25.only did the SNP lose quite seriously but also Scotland as a
:55:26. > :55:30.whole was deeply divided, families and communities were divided, a lot
:55:31. > :55:33.of unpleasantness, more than we are normally used to in Scotland, and I
:55:34. > :55:39.do not think Nicola wants to go through that again in the short to
:55:40. > :55:41.medium term. Yet, the issue still remains on whether the British
:55:42. > :55:48.Government should even consider blocking such a proposal. She said
:55:49. > :55:50.it might even be that she could not sit there would be one but it would
:55:51. > :55:55.be possible to have another independence referendum in the first
:55:56. > :55:58.half of next year. As I understand the legal situation, the UK
:55:59. > :56:01.Parliament would have to give approval before any referendum could
:56:02. > :56:06.be held on an issue of this kind and I didn't think anyone serious doubts
:56:07. > :56:13.that. Theresa May has already indicated that she believes... It is
:56:14. > :56:19.less than two years since we had a referendum, which came... But the
:56:20. > :56:24.point is, if Parliament blocked it, it would be explosive. But first of
:56:25. > :56:27.all there is not a proposal at this moment for any referendum to
:56:28. > :56:32.actually happen. Nicola Sturgeon has been very careful and she said the
:56:33. > :56:35.issue is on the table. She chooses her words carefully, unlike perhaps
:56:36. > :56:38.Alex Salmond, who is a bit more explosive on these matters.
:56:39. > :56:44.Something being on the table is a very diplomatic expression. I
:56:45. > :56:46.remember it from my time in the Foreign Office. You use these
:56:47. > :56:52.expressions when you do not want to commit yourself either way. You were
:56:53. > :56:56.Foreign Secretary. The new Foreign Secretary is Boris Johnson. We have
:56:57. > :57:01.already said that it is a risky appointment. Yesterday was a gamble.
:57:02. > :57:08.One that might pay off if he can reinvent himself. What advice would
:57:09. > :57:15.you give them dubbed him? I think Boris is a very intelligent guy, he
:57:16. > :57:17.is not like Donald Trump, he is very civilised and intelligent who could
:57:18. > :57:26.be a very good Foreign Secretary. But he has really made him made his
:57:27. > :57:29.name as a celebrity and you cannot be a Foreign Secretary, cowering at
:57:30. > :57:32.the serious problems of international diplomacy and at the
:57:33. > :57:37.same time expect to continue to be a celebrity. What does reinventing
:57:38. > :57:45.himself mean if you are Foreign Secretary? Less puzzled air? Fewer
:57:46. > :57:49.off-the-cuff remarks? -- less tousled hair. I would recommend him
:57:50. > :57:53.to have a haircut and tucking his shirt into the back of his trousers!
:57:54. > :58:00.But to be more serious, I think he has got to adopt a conversation that
:58:01. > :58:04.does not just get an enjoyable headline that cheers are so a Monday
:58:05. > :58:09.morning, he has to demonstrate he is conscious of the real issues. We are
:58:10. > :58:14.talking about the future of the Middle East, the war in Syria, what
:58:15. > :58:18.British policy will be on that, and about the future of our relationship
:58:19. > :58:26.with Russia. Crucial issues of that kind. One other person you have
:58:27. > :58:31.commented on, George Osborne, you seemed to regret he was leaving.
:58:32. > :58:36.Would you like Theresa May to bring him back? No, that decision has been
:58:37. > :58:42.taken. I said I was surprised, not surprised that he seems to be
:58:43. > :58:46.Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he is a real heavyweight, I personally
:58:47. > :58:52.think he has been a successful Chancellor and I think he would
:58:53. > :58:56.still love to contribute. I think Theresa May put him on the
:58:57. > :59:02.backbenches... You might enjoy the realisation from the time being. Why
:59:03. > :59:06.don't you be an adviser to Boris Johnson was like That is the Boris
:59:07. > :59:07.to decide! We will have to leave it there, thank you.
:59:08. > :59:09.Nothing better illustrates the turmoil in developing our
:59:10. > :59:12.political system than the state of the Labour Party.
:59:13. > :59:14.At a time when this country so desperately needs
:59:15. > :59:16.a strong opposition, they seem intent on publicly
:59:17. > :59:22.Well, I'm joined now by Labour MSP Neil Findlay,
:59:23. > :59:24.who will launch the Scotland for Corbyn campaign
:59:25. > :59:29.at a rally in Glasgow shortly after this programme.
:59:30. > :59:36.So, what exactly are you going to do? We will be gathering together a
:59:37. > :59:40.group of people, a large group, I expect, who will be getting
:59:41. > :59:43.themselves involved in organising the campaign might just acquitted a
:59:44. > :59:48.year ago is very successfully, and I look forward to that this afternoon.
:59:49. > :59:53.Be split in the Labour Party is hopeless at the moment, isn't it? I
:59:54. > :59:58.think it is very, very regrettable that this has happened. At a time
:59:59. > :00:03.when we have had the Tory Party on the ropes, the Prime Minister had
:00:04. > :00:05.resigned and what we should have been in there, putting the boot in
:00:06. > :00:11.to the Tory Party, finishing them off. Instead the Parliamentary Party
:00:12. > :00:18.turned on itself and I think that is hugely regrettable. Jeremy Corbyn's
:00:19. > :00:24.new Shadow Education Secretary was interviewed by Andrew Neil a few
:00:25. > :00:27.minutes ago and she would not even say she would vote for Jeremy Corbyn
:00:28. > :00:31.in the leadership election. This is hopeless, even the people replacing
:00:32. > :00:36.the people who have resigned do not seem to support Jeremy Corbyn. She
:00:37. > :00:42.stepped up to the plate and serve, unlike some others who deserted. I
:00:43. > :00:44.think there is great credit to people like her, loyal to the Labour
:00:45. > :00:49.Party, who stepped up to the plate. Everyone will have a decision to
:00:50. > :00:52.make as to who they support the leadership candidate. They are
:00:53. > :00:56.entitled to make that decision in a free and democratic election. I
:00:57. > :01:05.welcome a free and democratic election. If there is such an
:01:06. > :01:11.election and Jeremy Corbyn wins, what about the 80% of liver-mac MPs
:01:12. > :01:14.who do not support him? I think you might want to direct a question to
:01:15. > :01:20.some of them. -- Labour MPs. I hope they would respect the mandate, the
:01:21. > :01:22.views of the members, never forget they are the people who do the
:01:23. > :01:28.leafleting, do the phone calls, raise the money, work day in, day
:01:29. > :01:32.out, we in, week out for these MPs who give them the privilege to serve
:01:33. > :01:37.in Parliament. I think members should be respected in that
:01:38. > :01:43.framework that. If that happens there will be a split in the Labour
:01:44. > :01:46.Party. I hope not. I hope all candidates in this election and all
:01:47. > :01:50.their supporters will abide by the result, whoever wins, and we all get
:01:51. > :01:57.together and move forward. I certainly will be making that today.
:01:58. > :02:01.I hope that all the candidates and their supporters unite around that
:02:02. > :02:05.one principle that whoever wins, we gather round and support and move on
:02:06. > :02:10.and get on with the business of taking on the Tories and the SNP.
:02:11. > :02:16.There has only been a division in the Labour Party between people who
:02:17. > :02:24.believe that conference should decide everything, that the Liberal
:02:25. > :02:27.Party fish be mandated by the militia, and those who believe that
:02:28. > :02:32.MPs have a slightly different role, they are collected by millions of
:02:33. > :02:37.people, that they have some independent base. These divisions
:02:38. > :02:43.are in all parties. -- mandated by the membership. But the two views
:02:44. > :02:47.are not compatible any more. Be Conservative members last week
:02:48. > :02:50.complained that the Tory Party election was fixed, it really
:02:51. > :02:56.involves their members. These tensions within parties, that is
:02:57. > :03:00.what happens. But most of the Cabinet has not resigned whereas
:03:01. > :03:06.most of the Shadow Cabinet has. Of course, and that is the regrettable
:03:07. > :03:07.part of this. Yes, but it still looks hopeless. It should not be
:03:08. > :03:12.hopeless and that is what I think we looks hopeless. It should not be
:03:13. > :03:18.have to get home, all sides has two get home to the candidates, that the
:03:19. > :03:23.people who draft on our behalf are demanding that the Labour Party gets
:03:24. > :03:25.its act together and that this election clears the air and we move
:03:26. > :03:30.on, united together to do what we have to do, hold a dreadful
:03:31. > :03:34.Government to account. Neil Findlay, thank you very much.
:03:35. > :03:37.Perhaps it has always been true that people decide who to support or how
:03:38. > :03:39.to vote based on gut feelings, not on who has actually presented
:03:40. > :03:44.But it has been claimed that now we are living in an era
:03:45. > :03:46.of "post-truth" politics, so competing sides in the political
:03:47. > :03:47.debate don't even bother with complicated things
:03:48. > :03:51.Instead, it is said, they rely on slogans
:03:52. > :03:53.and spin to shore up support and win over doubters.
:03:54. > :03:55.Some have pointed to the Euro referendum as proof of that.
:03:56. > :04:12.Across the channel they are watching what we are up to.
:04:13. > :04:16.It's becoming a bit like Game of Thrones meets Monty Python...
:04:17. > :04:22.But there's another way of looking at the choice we've faced, a
:04:23. > :04:24.conflict between head and heart, facts and feelings.
:04:25. > :04:31.Did the former Chancellor believed his warnings about more austerity if
:04:32. > :04:38.we voted for Brexit? There will be a hole in the public
:04:39. > :04:42.finances. Taxes will have to go up, spending will have to be cut.
:04:43. > :04:47.And did they leave campaign think her claim about the cash the UK pays
:04:48. > :04:54.to Europe was the whole truth? Are we in an age of what some have
:04:55. > :05:04.called "post-fact politics"? I would say there is such a thing is
:05:05. > :05:09.that. My definition of it, because it is a loose area in terms of
:05:10. > :05:15.study, would simply be the use of barefaced lies and manipulation of
:05:16. > :05:18.the facts at either end of that sort of moral spectrum.
:05:19. > :05:23.What you are doing is isolating the of moral spectrum.
:05:24. > :05:26.best points of your argument, that has been done for hundreds of years.
:05:27. > :05:33.We all do that in our everyday lives. But there is a big difference
:05:34. > :05:38.between that and telling lies. There is a view that the big problem
:05:39. > :05:41.is we have forgotten how to have respect for, grown at political
:05:42. > :05:46.arguments. I think there has been an
:05:47. > :05:52.infantilisation, we have gone from the maturity of serious and lengthy
:05:53. > :05:56.reflection down to the idea of immediate, emotional response. I
:05:57. > :05:59.call that infantilisation because we are behaving less like adults are
:06:00. > :06:04.more like children. So basically, I think we need to
:06:05. > :06:06.grow up, and read to recognise that these are difficult matters, we need
:06:07. > :06:12.to think long and hard about them and we need to realise that other
:06:13. > :06:17.people have good intent, and not denigrate them all push aside their
:06:18. > :06:20.arguments by just misrepresenting them as demons or on the other side
:06:21. > :06:25.angels. But some say there is no such thing
:06:26. > :06:30.as post-fact politics. It is just sour grapes from the losing side.
:06:31. > :06:34.I think this is really lazy thinking, it is like saying that
:06:35. > :06:40.people don't accept your point of view other people are a bit silly or
:06:41. > :06:44.stupid in some way, and they just go for emotional responses while some
:06:45. > :06:47.other side is the truth and the facts. It seems to be what is really
:06:48. > :06:52.at stake here is not bad at all, what is happening is that if people
:06:53. > :06:55.cannot get their argument across, it is either because they are not
:06:56. > :07:00.addressing the real fears or issues that are in the mind of the other
:07:01. > :07:03.side, or they are just very bad at expressing it and the other side are
:07:04. > :07:10.very good at putting their figures out or they are very quick.
:07:11. > :07:11.Perhaps one defining moment of the EU referendum came from Michael
:07:12. > :07:18.Gove. I think the people have had enough
:07:19. > :07:23.of experts with organisations... Had enough of experts?!
:07:24. > :07:28.Organisations with acronyms saying they know best.
:07:29. > :07:32.What you are saying is I will give you a simple truth to a set of
:07:33. > :07:37.complex problems. The problem comes when there is genuinely a context
:07:38. > :07:40.problem to be solved, and in the area of politics you dug up much
:07:41. > :07:46.more conjugated than that. The problem has when you have a
:07:47. > :07:51.politician saying he has a simple solution, don't worry, what he is
:07:52. > :07:56.saying is "Don't think." I used to teach people how not to
:07:57. > :07:59.answer questions, and that felt like a smart thing to do because it
:08:00. > :08:03.allowed you to escape from difficult issues. But I think we are now
:08:04. > :08:07.entering an era where people would really respect a politician who came
:08:08. > :08:17.out and told it like it was, whether it was good news or bad news.
:08:18. > :08:22.A straight talker, who tells it like it is. That's exactly what his
:08:23. > :08:27.supporters see him as. Opponents, of course, say he is the ultimate
:08:28. > :08:30."post-fact politician". If there is such a thing.
:08:31. > :08:33.Now it's time to look back at the events of the past week
:08:34. > :08:40.and see what's coming up in The Week Ahead.
:08:41. > :08:45.Here with me now are the journalists Katie Grant and Paul Hutcheon.
:08:46. > :08:53.Let's start with this whole Scotland and Brexit thing, Paul. Nicola
:08:54. > :08:57.Sturgeon was saying this veto is maybe not quite a veto, although she
:08:58. > :09:04.was open about saying she doesn't actually understand whether it is or
:09:05. > :09:09.not. I do think that the current situation benefits Theresa May more
:09:10. > :09:13.than the First Minister. If you think back a few days when it looked
:09:14. > :09:16.like there might be a Tory leadership contest, Theresa May was
:09:17. > :09:22.quite categorical that she wanted to trigger article 50 next year. I
:09:23. > :09:27.think what she said to Nicola Sturgeon a few days ago fits into
:09:28. > :09:31.that, she's given herself a bit more time to negotiate a UK wide deal.
:09:32. > :09:36.She is saying, oh K, if you think you can negotiate some sort of
:09:37. > :09:40.Scotland only package, let me see it, I will consider it, probably
:09:41. > :09:45.knowing it can never happen, and so I think it looks good for the Prime
:09:46. > :09:53.Minister. And she could perhaps use it, Katie, if she wants to restrain
:09:54. > :09:57.David Davis. Yes, I think Theresa May has been very astute in making
:09:58. > :10:05.her first visit up here. I think it was very nice to see her and Nicola
:10:06. > :10:10.Sturgeon sitting having a relaxed in a way conversation, and I think in
:10:11. > :10:16.the interview with Nicola Sturgeon earlier it was very refreshing to
:10:17. > :10:20.hear her say we don't really know. And so I think that sort of honesty,
:10:21. > :10:25.despite the truth and lies you've just been seeing, were actually help
:10:26. > :10:31.Nicola Sturgeon cement her position as somebody who is looking for the
:10:32. > :10:36.best in Scotland. Theresa May did not say, look, you cannot have a
:10:37. > :10:42.second independence referendum. No, because she is far too wise to say
:10:43. > :10:48.that. We've had with Davidsson saying the same thing, and David
:10:49. > :10:55.Mondo pretty much the same way. I don't think she's an expert on
:10:56. > :11:01.Scottish politics, and I think inevitably we will be having a
:11:02. > :11:04.second referendum. This idea of talking to EU partners about a third
:11:05. > :11:10.way for Scotland, I don't think that will result in anything substantial,
:11:11. > :11:13.legal or significant. And I think Nicola in about a year's time will
:11:14. > :11:23.probably look at it and think the only option is a second referendum.
:11:24. > :11:27.This turmoil in British politics doesn't involve tanks and shooting
:11:28. > :11:32.in the streets and bombing parliament. What do you think this
:11:33. > :11:37.could happen in Turkey now, there are fears that the president rather
:11:38. > :11:40.than thinking -- using this as a festival of democracy will simply
:11:41. > :11:45.use it to crack down on people he is cracking down on anywhere? What we
:11:46. > :11:57.are hearing sounds like with all these people being arrested but that
:11:58. > :12:01.is what is good happen. I think Mr Erdogan has shown himself very good
:12:02. > :12:06.at clamping down on what appears on the outside. It is a very troubling
:12:07. > :12:12.sort of situation here, because he actually -- he is not a person who
:12:13. > :12:14.you would think is not -- full of democracy, that's been very
:12:15. > :12:19.difficult for Turkey, and although nobody wants a military coup, nobody
:12:20. > :12:26.wants the place to become yet more restricted. But I suspect that what
:12:27. > :12:31.we hear will be a rather gentler version of what is naturally going
:12:32. > :12:34.on. We're taking a break for the summer, and we were good to have a
:12:35. > :12:40.crystal ball here for you to gaze into, but we couldn't afford it. So
:12:41. > :12:43.you have to imagine one. By the time we come to the autumn, what big
:12:44. > :12:52.things do you think will have changed in Britain? I think that
:12:53. > :12:54.there will be relative Tory unity, and I think the divisions you have
:12:55. > :12:59.seen in the Labour Party will be even greater than they are today. I
:13:00. > :13:03.would agree with that, I don't think the Labour Party's and to come
:13:04. > :13:09.together any time soon. I think the honeymoon period for Theresa May may
:13:10. > :13:12.be slightly over, people will be becoming slightly impatient about if
:13:13. > :13:20.we voted for Brexit, sort of, where is it? So I think we will be more...
:13:21. > :13:27.I think things will be less trouble than they are now. Split in the
:13:28. > :13:32.Labour Party? I think if Jeremy Corbyn wins, some moderates will
:13:33. > :13:38.form a new party. There will be on STP style split, as you saw in the
:13:39. > :13:51.early 1980s. Right, -- in a macro is DUP. -- STP. -- SDP style.
:13:52. > :13:54.Like both Parliaments, we're having a break over summer,
:13:55. > :13:56.but we'll be back again in September.
:13:57. > :14:13.They were yum. The children are going to love them.
:14:14. > :14:17.This week, Gregg and Chris show how spending less on food...