:00:38. > :00:47.Jeremy Corbyn insists he can re-unite the Labour Party if he wins
:00:48. > :00:50.the leadership contest next week, but, as threats to deselect MPs
:00:51. > :00:53.opposed to Mr Corbyn come to light, is Labour heading for meltdown?
:00:54. > :00:57.She won the Ukip leadership on Friday, and by Saturday
:00:58. > :00:59.was facing internecine spats and calls for her to ditch
:01:00. > :01:04.So how can Diane James pull her party together,
:01:05. > :01:07.and what's the point of Ukip post-Brexit?
:01:08. > :01:13.Theresa May insists she doesn't need to call a fresh election,
:01:14. > :01:18.so will she deliver every promise made in the 2015
:01:19. > :01:27.We've updated our Manifesto Tracker to check how much of it
:01:28. > :01:29.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: I'll be talking
:01:30. > :01:32.referendums with the Secretary of State for Scotland.
:01:33. > :01:34.And John Swinney tells us some government money may soon go direct
:01:35. > :01:46.it all over for the Lib Dems in the capital?
:01:47. > :01:49.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:50. > :01:51.panel in the business - Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis
:01:52. > :01:53.and Isabel Oakeshott, who'll be tweeting throughout
:01:54. > :01:57.the programme using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:58. > :02:00.By this time next week we'll know whether Jeremy Corbyn
:02:01. > :02:02.will remain Labour leader, or if his challenger, Owen Smith,
:02:03. > :02:09.Whoever wins, they face a big challenge to reunite the party
:02:10. > :02:12.after months of hostilities between Corbyn supporters
:02:13. > :02:18.in the grassroots and the majority of Labour MPs.
:02:19. > :02:22.Tomorrow, two television documentaries are scheduled to air -
:02:23. > :02:24.on BBC One and Channel 4 - which report on the
:02:25. > :02:28.Speaking to the BBC's deputy political editor John Pienaar
:02:29. > :02:34.for Panorama, Len McClusky, general secretary of the Unite
:02:35. > :02:37.union, said opponents of Mr Corbyn need to get back
:02:38. > :02:42.Some of the MPs have behaved absolutely despicably
:02:43. > :02:45.and disgracefully, and they've not shown any respect
:02:46. > :02:51.So those vocal dissidents who do not show the respect
:02:52. > :02:54.to the leader that you describe, when it comes to deselection
:02:55. > :02:57.they would simply be asking for it, you say?
:02:58. > :03:01.I think they would, I think anybody who behaves in a way
:03:02. > :03:05.that is totally disrespectful, and outwith the culture
:03:06. > :03:07.of the Labour Party, is basically asking to be
:03:08. > :03:16.Meanwhile, Channel 4's Dispatches programme secretly filmed a meeting
:03:17. > :03:22.of Momentum activists in London - that's the organisation set up
:03:23. > :03:24.to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, where the former
:03:25. > :03:27.chairman of the Brighton Labour Party set out his views
:03:28. > :03:29.on opponents of Corbyn, including the local
:03:30. > :04:26.And we've been joined by the Labour MP for Hove, Peter Kyle.
:04:27. > :04:34.Are you nervous about your future? I have seen that clip for the first
:04:35. > :04:38.time now. I made three promises when I was up for selection, that I would
:04:39. > :04:41.be the hardest working candidate, bring politics back to the high
:04:42. > :04:45.street and engage with the public in a way that they never had in the
:04:46. > :04:49.constituency before, and beat the Tories, and I have done all three of
:04:50. > :04:52.those things. I have been incredibly hard-working with my team to make
:04:53. > :04:56.sure politics is driven deeper and wider into the local constituency
:04:57. > :05:08.than it ever has been before. We are more inclusive than any point before
:05:09. > :05:11.and more hard-working... I want to ask you another question... If they
:05:12. > :05:14.want to get me out of that seat, they have to work hard to do so. Is
:05:15. > :05:17.there an organised campaign to remove you? You have just seen the
:05:18. > :05:19.chair of my local party talking in a secret meeting somewhere to have me
:05:20. > :05:23.ousted, so clearly there is a movement locally. I have been a
:05:24. > :05:27.member of the Labour Party my whole life, there are people who have
:05:28. > :05:30.fought for other parties their whole lives who have joined in the last
:05:31. > :05:34.few weeks and are trying to beat the Labour Party in a different way, by
:05:35. > :05:36.getting rid of me. I am going to carry on doing my job. They are
:05:37. > :05:51.trying to get rid of you, aren't they? They are trying to
:05:52. > :05:53.get rid of the only Labour seat for a 200 mile stretch of coastline.
:05:54. > :05:56.That is extraordinary, we are surrounded down there by Tories and
:05:57. > :05:58.they are aiming fire at a Labour MP working harder than any other down
:05:59. > :06:00.there, trying to solve problems of the rail, the health service,
:06:01. > :06:04.hosting a debate last week about abuse in the family Court against
:06:05. > :06:07.women, all of these core issues for the Labour Party and that is what
:06:08. > :06:12.they are aiming fire act. It does not seem to make any difference of
:06:13. > :06:17.Mr Sandall, who was the head of the constituency, who was once
:06:18. > :06:25.suspended, he says he does not -- you do not represent them any more?
:06:26. > :06:28.He said I did not support the doctors, I did, I took the line
:06:29. > :06:32.given by Heidi Alexander at the time, which was not to go to the
:06:33. > :06:37.particular picket line. I have held round tables with doctors, spoken in
:06:38. > :06:41.the chamber about doctors. He said a list of different areas where I have
:06:42. > :06:47.not supported the Labour socialist left line, every one of them he is
:06:48. > :06:52.absolutely categorically wrong. On rail renationalisation, I have never
:06:53. > :06:56.spoken against it. I said it cannot happen for ten years so in the
:06:57. > :06:58.meantime I am making sure I can make people's journeys home from work
:06:59. > :07:04.better than the journey to work, which is what people expect. Who
:07:05. > :07:09.will have the support, you all the people who want to get wood of you?
:07:10. > :07:13.I don't think about that for a second, my job is to represent the
:07:14. > :07:18.people who elected me. There is a 34% increase in the Labour vote in
:07:19. > :07:23.Hove because of the way that my team ran the campaign. But they know all
:07:24. > :07:29.that and they still want rid of you. Clive Lewis, fellow Labour MP, said
:07:30. > :07:32.to the BBC this morning it is democratic selection. There is
:07:33. > :07:50.nothing democratic about what they are doing,
:07:51. > :07:54.there is nothing reaching out about what they are doing. Jeremy is the
:07:55. > :07:57.first person I have come across who uses an olive branch as a weapon to
:07:58. > :08:00.beat people with. On the same day they hold out an olive branch, they
:08:01. > :08:03.released a list of MPs who they say hate Jeremy. This is not the kind of
:08:04. > :08:06.inclusive leadership I would expect. If you face a battle to hold your
:08:07. > :08:09.seat, you don't expect any help from Jeremy Corbyn? He has come down to
:08:10. > :08:11.Brighton and said he would not stand in the way of my deselection. I am
:08:12. > :08:14.100% focused on delivering for the people he elected me and I
:08:15. > :08:18.represent, that is what I am in politics for, so if they want to
:08:19. > :08:21.defeat me they have to work harder than me for the constituency, just
:08:22. > :08:26.like the Tories would have to do. You have made that point several
:08:27. > :08:30.times. You talk about being one of the few Labour seats in a sea of
:08:31. > :08:35.Conservative seats in what in McLeod used to call the deep South, he did
:08:36. > :08:39.that for a reason, but isn't your Brighton and Hove Labour party a bit
:08:40. > :08:44.of a basket case? There have been examples of abusive behaviour, in
:08:45. > :08:49.ballot, the NEC suspended it in July, it is a bit of a mess. When I
:08:50. > :08:53.go out campaigning, which is every weekend, I have a massive team
:08:54. > :08:56.around me, I am part of an incredible movement in Brighton and
:08:57. > :09:00.Hove, and the vast majority of people in the Labour Party in
:09:01. > :09:03.Brighton and nationwide want to do the right thing, they care about
:09:04. > :09:08.social values and delivering it. We just have to win the argument but we
:09:09. > :09:10.have to be more electable and Jeremy is not showing the calibre of
:09:11. > :09:25.leadership that the official opposition needs, the
:09:26. > :09:28.Labour Party needs, and the country needs to look to if we are going to
:09:29. > :09:31.make the leap from opposition into power. Thank you for being with us
:09:32. > :09:33.this morning. Later in the programme we hope to be joined by James
:09:34. > :09:38.Schneider of Momentum. Allen, how typical is this
:09:39. > :09:43.situation? Are a number of Labour MPs now going to face deselection
:09:44. > :09:46.challenges? I think lots of people in the PLP are worried, more of them
:09:47. > :09:50.are women than men, I don't know if that is coincidence or speaks to
:09:51. > :09:54.something broader, but the boundary changes give golden opportunity for
:09:55. > :09:58.some rethinking, Jeremy Corbyn is talking about selection. The idea if
:09:59. > :10:04.you have a boundary change, if you have 40%, your steak on the seat is
:10:05. > :10:06.the same but anybody not in that situation has to play a game of
:10:07. > :10:10.the same but anybody not in that musical chairs and that is seen as a
:10:11. > :10:14.good chance to reconfigure the party. It is good this is coming out
:10:15. > :10:18.into the open because we have heard for months from Jeremy Corbyn's team
:10:19. > :10:22.that this is a terrible smear but it seems to be something that people
:10:23. > :10:27.like Len McCluskey, very close to the Labour leadership, want to
:10:28. > :10:32.happen. It has been denied, but we had Len McCluskey now saying he is
:10:33. > :10:39.up for the changes, particularly for people who have been very rude about
:10:40. > :10:42.Mr Corbyn, Clive Lewis talking it -- calling it democratic selection,
:10:43. > :10:46.Momentum, as we have seen from the film, clearly organising to move in
:10:47. > :10:51.on a number of MPs, it is going to happen? Yes, I think it is, the
:10:52. > :10:55.phrase Clive Lewis used this morning is a natural churn, are turn of
:10:56. > :11:02.phrase which suggest the label -- upheaval. People are saying that
:11:03. > :11:06.Jeremy Corbyn will reach out to all of these people, ask what he has
:11:07. > :11:11.done wrong and bring everybody back together. The people on the other
:11:12. > :11:14.side think that is a chance to line up loyalty pledges. Meanwhile we
:11:15. > :11:18.hear this morning in the newspapers that Corbyn and the people around
:11:19. > :11:22.him had a meeting in a country house a month ago in which they are not
:11:23. > :11:26.just planning to go after MPs but also the leadership of the Labour
:11:27. > :11:28.Party itself in terms of the staffing, the Management, the
:11:29. > :11:34.general secretary is for the high jump, we hear, and the guy they are
:11:35. > :11:41.thinking of lining up for that is one of Mr Paloschi -- Len
:11:42. > :11:45.McCluskey's friends at Unite, you cannot imagine they would put too
:11:46. > :11:49.many barriers in his way. That appears to be what is going on
:11:50. > :11:53.behind the scenes. At every single stage where the moderates say this
:11:54. > :11:57.is the worst thing that could happen, the Corbynistas said, oh,
:11:58. > :12:02.no, it isn't, and you find out something worse is going on. If Mr
:12:03. > :12:07.Corbyn is re-elected comfortably, perhaps by even more of a majority
:12:08. > :12:13.than he was last time, isn't it only natural that they should then work
:12:14. > :12:20.for the MPs to reflect more the views of the new membership? One of
:12:21. > :12:25.the interesting aspects of what is going on it it seems to be the new
:12:26. > :12:29.MPs like Peter Kyle who we have just had on who were under so much threat
:12:30. > :12:32.here, and the reason is because they have not got that hinterland with
:12:33. > :12:38.their party association, they have not built up that long-term trust.
:12:39. > :12:43.One of the things that is furious about this party leadership contest
:12:44. > :12:47.is that normally once a leadership contest is over, it is a cue for a
:12:48. > :13:14.period of stability and calm, it brings things to
:13:15. > :13:17.ahead everybody settles down and falls into line. I think the
:13:18. > :13:19.opposite will happen here. There is absolutely no sign that Jeremy
:13:20. > :13:22.Corbyn's return, as we expect to happen, to the leadership will in
:13:23. > :13:25.some ways take the steam out of this thing. They do have a plan, I think,
:13:26. > :13:27.at the moment, to give the Parliamentary party some more power
:13:28. > :13:30.over the selection of the Shadow Cabinet, and that could be a way of
:13:31. > :13:33.trying to work together better, but I can't see it working. We will talk
:13:34. > :13:35.more about this later. Let's move on to the Conservatives.
:13:36. > :13:37.Theresa May insists her Government will be markedly different
:13:38. > :13:39.from David Cameron's, but doesn't appear to want
:13:40. > :13:42.an early general election to provide her with a new mandate.
:13:43. > :13:44.So, does that mean she'll stick by everything in Conservatives'
:13:45. > :13:47.We've been busy crawling through the promises
:13:48. > :13:49.made by David Cameron, and updated our Manifesto Tracker
:13:50. > :13:52.to check which policies are being pursued and which have been ditched.
:13:53. > :13:55.It's been an eventful period since we launched
:13:56. > :13:59.Britain has voted to leave the EU and a new Prime
:14:00. > :14:00.Minister is in place, but the Conservative Government
:14:01. > :14:04.under Theresa May will still be held to the promises it made ahead
:14:05. > :14:07.of the 2015 general election in their manifesto, and a few other
:14:08. > :14:08.big commitments made during the campaign.
:14:09. > :14:11.And this is how we are keeping track of their progress.
:14:12. > :14:14.We have identified 161 pledges and loaded them into
:14:15. > :14:20.We grouped them into categories covering all the major areas
:14:21. > :14:23.of Government policy, from the constitution
:14:24. > :14:30.And we have given each of the promises a colour rating.
:14:31. > :14:34.Red means little or no progress so far.
:14:35. > :14:39.Amber means the Government has made some progress.
:14:40. > :14:42.While green is for delivered pledges.
:14:43. > :14:45.Let's start by looking at one here in foreign affairs and defence,
:14:46. > :14:58.The promise to hold a referendum on our EU membership.
:14:59. > :15:00.We have changed that to green, as the Government did deliver
:15:01. > :15:03.in June, even if it didn't get the result it wanted.
:15:04. > :15:05.Many of the promises made while David Cameron was leader
:15:06. > :15:08.were based around what he hoped he could achieve in his
:15:09. > :15:10.renegotiation of our relationship with the EU, particularly
:15:11. > :15:20.The manifesto said that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits
:15:21. > :15:22.and child benefits must live here and contribute
:15:23. > :15:30.The deal offered to David Cameron by the rest of the EU was a much
:15:31. > :15:32.weaker version of the pledge, which, like the rest
:15:33. > :15:35.of the renegotiation, was rejected by the voters
:15:36. > :15:43.So we have given this a red, although it is possible
:15:44. > :15:48.the Government could deliver on it once we have left the EU.
:15:49. > :15:51.The same goes for the promise that if a child of an EU migrant
:15:52. > :15:54.is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit
:15:55. > :16:01.David Cameron's renegotiation failed to secure this policy
:16:02. > :16:04.in full and it would be up to Theresa May's Government if it
:16:05. > :16:11.The vote to leave has had big implications for manifesto
:16:12. > :16:17.commitments in other areas, like here in the economy.
:16:18. > :16:19.One of the central promises made by David Cameron
:16:20. > :16:23.and George Osborne was this one, to eliminate the deficit and start
:16:24. > :16:31.But after the Brexit vote, Theresa May confirmed that
:16:32. > :16:34.while the Government aims to achieve a budget surplus,
:16:35. > :16:41.it has dropped the target of doing so by the end
:16:42. > :16:47.Now, those are some areas where the Government has made little
:16:48. > :16:55.Well, it fought a major battle in Parliament to tighten the rules
:16:56. > :17:02.This promise, which said strike action can only be called
:17:03. > :17:04.when at least half the eligible workforce have voted, is now law,
:17:05. > :17:11.As does this one, meaning that strikes affecting essential public
:17:12. > :17:12.services like health, education, fire and transport,
:17:13. > :17:23.will need the backing of at least 40% of those eligible to vote.
:17:24. > :17:25.We have marked the majority of policies as amber,
:17:26. > :17:30.meaning at least some progress is being made.
:17:31. > :17:33.Here in welfare, for example, we have got the Government's
:17:34. > :17:35.flagship reform, universal credit, which has been rolled out
:17:36. > :17:39.for some job-seekers, although the timetable for full
:17:40. > :17:41.delivery has been pushed back repeatedly and is currently
:17:42. > :17:51.And another here, under the environment.
:17:52. > :17:53.That's the promise to create a so-called bluebelt of protected
:17:54. > :17:59.conservation zones in the water around the UK's coast.
:18:00. > :18:01.That has been given amber, as the programme still
:18:02. > :18:07.Now let's see how the Government is doing overall.
:18:08. > :18:10.Out of 161 election commitments, the number of commitments we have
:18:11. > :18:20.The number marked amber falls to 90, and the number of green or delivered
:18:21. > :18:26.We will be returning to the Manifesto Tracker again,
:18:27. > :18:30.but in the meantime you can find all of the data on the politics
:18:31. > :18:37.And you can see the full details of our Manifesto Tracker
:18:38. > :18:49.on the BBC website - that's bbc.co.uk/news.
:18:50. > :18:51.I'm joined by the Conservative Cabinet minister, the leader
:18:52. > :18:54.of the House of Commons, David Lidington.
:18:55. > :19:05.Your biggest manifesto fail to date is immigration, how are you ever
:19:06. > :19:09.going to get net migration below 100,000? A number of different
:19:10. > :19:12.measures and clearly the nature of the renegotiation now as we leave
:19:13. > :19:15.the European Union will have a very important bearing on that, but one
:19:16. > :19:20.thing the Prime Minister set out very clearly is that we remain
:19:21. > :19:25.committed to getting the reduction in net migration that she has talked
:19:26. > :19:30.about consistently, but there's no quick fixes. People come to this
:19:31. > :19:35.country through a number of different routes, son to marry
:19:36. > :19:38.citizens, some for work reasons, some for asylum claims, some of the
:19:39. > :19:41.study, and we have got to look at each of those and work out how we
:19:42. > :19:45.can make sure the numbers are managed and controlled in the way
:19:46. > :19:50.people would expect. But you have been in power for six years and you
:19:51. > :19:55.have been in control of non-EU migration for six years, and it is
:19:56. > :20:01.still running at 190,000 net per year, even on the part of migration
:20:02. > :20:07.you are on complete control, you are nowhere near the 100,000 target.
:20:08. > :20:13.Why? Because in part our economy has been very sexual and other
:20:14. > :20:18.universities have been successful in attracting people to come here. We
:20:19. > :20:23.need to make sure that people, when they come here legitimately, to do a
:20:24. > :20:27.university course or take out a work permit opportunity for a limited
:20:28. > :20:33.period of time, do actually return home after they have completed that
:20:34. > :20:42.time they are permitted here, that we, as we have done, cut the number
:20:43. > :20:49.of bonus colleges... 190,000 net per year of non-EU, and you didn't say
:20:50. > :20:55.we will cut it to 100,000 unless we run the economy well. There were no
:20:56. > :21:00.ifs, no buts, was David Cameron's exact phrase. Can we get some
:21:01. > :21:04.honesty here, this whole project is Mission impossible. The meteor
:21:05. > :21:12.manifesto pledge, you would have to cut EU migration to below 50000 and
:21:13. > :21:18.non-EU migration to below 50,000. It's not going to happen, is it? We
:21:19. > :21:22.are committed to the ambitions, the object of the Prime Minister has set
:21:23. > :21:31.out. I think the public accepts that people who come here bona fides as
:21:32. > :21:36.tourists, workers to fill a skills gap we have got, that's fine but
:21:37. > :21:41.they expect people then to go back after their term here. And they also
:21:42. > :21:44.expect, which we are doing, to make sure school leavers have the
:21:45. > :21:48.opportunity to be trained so they can take the jobs that are
:21:49. > :21:54.available. They expect you to meet the promise you have made twice. He
:21:55. > :21:58.made it in the 2010 manifesto and again in the 2015 manifesto. I think
:21:59. > :22:05.many people watching this will say, why do you repeat a pledge you know
:22:06. > :22:10.you cannot keep? I don't agree it cannot be kept, but what I have said
:22:11. > :22:16.to you is that this is a complex challenge. There are no quick fixes
:22:17. > :22:20.to this, this is something Theresa May has repeatedly said. But just as
:22:21. > :22:27.we have introduced restrictions on access to benefits that we have
:22:28. > :22:30.introduced a requirement for people coming to marry a British citizen to
:22:31. > :22:35.speak English and reach a certain standard before they come here, we
:22:36. > :22:40.need to look at that level of detail at each of the tracks that people
:22:41. > :22:45.used to come here. Net migration is running at three times your target.
:22:46. > :22:48.In the manifesto you said you would insist EU migrants would need to
:22:49. > :22:55.live and work here for four years before they could claim welfare
:22:56. > :23:01.benefits. The EU said no. Now we are leaving the EU, is that the minimum
:23:02. > :23:07.we will insist on? Clearly anything to do with EU citizens already here
:23:08. > :23:11.and prospective inward migration by EU citizens or British citizens to
:23:12. > :23:22.other EU countries is part of the negotiation. Is that still a pledge?
:23:23. > :23:25.That specific pledge was part of the last manifesto, it was actually
:23:26. > :23:31.delivered in a number of different ways through the restrictions that
:23:32. > :23:37.we did place upon, and are still in force, on EU migrants coming here
:23:38. > :23:41.seeking work and getting access to out of work benefits. The big issue
:23:42. > :23:46.at the renegotiation David Cameron lead was access to tax credits and
:23:47. > :23:53.in work benefits. He came to a deal on that which limited it, but that
:23:54. > :23:57.failed after the referendum. It wasn't that you don't get anything
:23:58. > :24:01.unless you have been here for four years, your manifesto also promised
:24:02. > :24:08.the required EU job seekers to leave if they haven't found a job within
:24:09. > :24:21.six months. Will that be fulfilled pledge in this Parliament? That is
:24:22. > :24:25.already a policy we have taken. How many EU citizens have you removed? I
:24:26. > :24:33.think we can agree to close the norm. You have not kept that pledge,
:24:34. > :24:41.EU job seekers are here, aren't they? That is one very important
:24:42. > :24:43.part of the exit negotiation is now under way, but it wouldn't be
:24:44. > :24:48.sensible to give a running commentary on the detail of that.
:24:49. > :24:52.Post Brexit, it would be reasonable to think EU migrants still coming
:24:53. > :24:57.here would be regarded more favourable than non-EU migrants? We
:24:58. > :25:03.were part of the club for 40 years. What they get more favourable
:25:04. > :25:07.treatment if they were EU citizens? That is speculation about what comes
:25:08. > :25:11.out of the negotiation, and we will go into that with a range of
:25:12. > :25:17.objectives, both in terms of control over migration by EU citizens, which
:25:18. > :25:20.I think is what British people expected when they voted as they
:25:21. > :25:25.did, but also with the objective of getting the best possible outcome
:25:26. > :25:29.for British business. On tax and spend, one of the key promises in
:25:30. > :25:34.the manifesto was to move to fiscal surplus from fiscal deficit by the
:25:35. > :25:44.end of the decade, do you still intend to keep that? The PM said she
:25:45. > :25:49.remains committed, but not by the end of the parliament. When you look
:25:50. > :25:52.at the fact there is uncertainty in the world economy, clearly some
:25:53. > :25:55.uncertainty in the aftermath of the referendum outcome, that was a
:25:56. > :26:06.sensible, pragmatic decision to take. So do we have an idea of when
:26:07. > :26:10.the target of surplus will be? The Chancellor will give his Autumn
:26:11. > :26:16.Statement in the next few weeks, and will set out the Government's plan.
:26:17. > :26:22.The pledge to start a move towards surplus in the 2018/19 manifesto, it
:26:23. > :26:35.said we are set to move into surplus of them, that is now off the cards?
:26:36. > :26:39.We are committed to it, but not with that timing. When you set out to a
:26:40. > :26:44.destination, if the traffic conditions say you should take
:26:45. > :26:49.different route, that's what you do. But we don't know if Brexit will be
:26:50. > :26:53.as dire as people like you predicted, so until we do know that,
:26:54. > :26:59.why ditch the planned to head the surplus that you promised the
:27:00. > :27:03.British people? Because there is uncertainty in the world economy. It
:27:04. > :27:07.seems sensible to make that adjustment, but the destination
:27:08. > :27:15.still remains. You have no evidence anything has changed. You work on
:27:16. > :27:18.the basis of evidence remains but Philip will be working on these
:27:19. > :27:27.details in the Autumn Statement shortly. Will Theresa May's ferment
:27:28. > :27:32.continued to implement the 2015 manifesto? Is she committed to it in
:27:33. > :27:37.its entirety as much as David Cameron? Yes, she was very clear out
:27:38. > :27:40.her first cabinet meeting that she wanted every departmental minister
:27:41. > :27:46.to go back to the manifesto on which we were elected with a majority, and
:27:47. > :27:51.to ensure that we were delivering on those objectives. I think your
:27:52. > :27:58.tracker is a good idea. Just not when it comes to the surplus or
:27:59. > :28:01.immigration? One point of the tracker is that it enables you and
:28:02. > :28:06.the public to see where we are making progress, as we are for
:28:07. > :28:09.example on getting more poorer people out of tax and into work and
:28:10. > :28:14.so on, and where we have taken the decision to alter the course of it.
:28:15. > :28:16.I'm glad you think the tracker is a good idea. Come back in the future
:28:17. > :28:19.and we will talk more about it. She says Ukip is the official
:28:20. > :28:22.opposition in waiting. But how can Ukip's new leader,
:28:23. > :28:24.Diane James, stop the infighting and factionalism that's threatened
:28:25. > :28:26.to destroy the party's And what's the point
:28:27. > :28:30.of Ukip now that the UK Diane James joins me
:28:31. > :28:33.live in just a moment. First, Ellie Price reports
:28:34. > :28:35.from Ukip's party conference in Bournemouth, where the new leader
:28:36. > :28:38.moved swiftly to put her stamp It is an absolute pleasure
:28:39. > :28:44.to announce, with 8451 votes, the leader of the UK
:28:45. > :28:50.Independence Party, Diane James! There you have it,
:28:51. > :28:53.the biggest non-surprise in politics in years -
:28:54. > :28:55.Diane James is the She's been the frontrunner in this
:28:56. > :28:59.election campaign all summer. Of course, the challenge now
:29:00. > :29:02.is going to be convincing this lot What I will be doing is stepping
:29:03. > :29:20.into his leadership shoes, but I will be doing everything
:29:21. > :29:24.to achieve the political success that he's handing over to me
:29:25. > :29:28.and to you. But, as the new leader, Diane James
:29:29. > :29:33.knows she has big shoes to fill. Nigel's a great almost wartime
:29:34. > :29:36.leader, he said that during his speech, and I think
:29:37. > :29:39.Diane's a different kind of leader. There's talk of war,
:29:40. > :29:44.there's talk of peace times, but unfortunately there aren't peace
:29:45. > :29:47.times within Ukip at the moment. I think this pretty much
:29:48. > :29:49.settles the issue. Diane is strong on these
:29:50. > :29:51.sorts of issues. In many ways, Nigel
:29:52. > :29:56.was slightly weak, actually. There's really only about four
:29:57. > :29:59.or five people who cause trouble in Ukip, and I'm pretty sure that's
:30:00. > :30:03.the end of the story. But just before a live interview
:30:04. > :30:07.with Ukip's Steven Woolfe, I was literally caught in the middle
:30:08. > :30:10.of what you could describe You've seen and heard what was said
:30:11. > :30:22.in the media, and so... The reason for Neil
:30:23. > :30:27.Hamilton's anger? Diane James had rewritten the next
:30:28. > :30:29.day's conference schedule It certainly seems like a quixotic
:30:30. > :30:37.decision from somebody who an hour or two ago was talking
:30:38. > :30:39.about the need for party unity. He was replaced by his rival
:30:40. > :30:44.in Welsh Ukip. You said to me the other day
:30:45. > :30:47.there would be a bloodbath, Is this the beginning
:30:48. > :30:52.of the bloodbath? I think it's the beginning of Diane
:30:53. > :30:55.putting her foot down, showing that she is the leader,
:30:56. > :30:58.and that she wants the rest of the conference to go the way
:30:59. > :31:01.that she wants it to go. We're fine, just
:31:02. > :31:04.wondering who you are? That's Douglas Carswell,
:31:05. > :31:07.by the way, the party's only MP. The now ex-leader thinks
:31:08. > :31:09.he knows exactly who he is, and was using his new-found
:31:10. > :31:14.freedom to explain. During the referendum campaign,
:31:15. > :31:16.he's really done all he can But the new leader was there,
:31:17. > :31:23.symbolically, to greet him. Damaging comments from
:31:24. > :31:25.Mr Farage this morning, Lots of people in politics say
:31:26. > :31:30.all sorts of things. Diane James was also
:31:31. > :31:34.more than happy to share This conference ends
:31:35. > :31:50.on a conciliatory note, and there are signs this
:31:51. > :31:53.party is already moving And we've been joined by
:31:54. > :32:18.the new leader of Ukip, Diane James. Good morning, thank you. What is the
:32:19. > :32:22.point of Ukip? We are the only party 100% committed to Brexit, we have a
:32:23. > :32:26.Tory Government that is still split, a Labour Party that has no idea
:32:27. > :32:30.which direction it is going in. You have what is left of the Liberal
:32:31. > :32:33.Democrats relying on their voice in Europe, their single voice in
:32:34. > :32:37.Europe, to get their message across, and we are the one party that will
:32:38. > :32:42.stand up for the over 17 million people that wanted to leave the
:32:43. > :32:54.European Union, simple. Except that you are dysfunctional? No, we are
:32:55. > :32:57.embarking on a brand-new era, as I said on a conference. I know you
:32:58. > :33:00.will pick up on the changes I made to the programme but the new leader
:33:01. > :33:02.has the prerogative to do that. I understand that, and leaders should
:33:03. > :33:05.lead, but Paul Nuttall, the outgoing deputy leader, has spoken of a
:33:06. > :33:09.cancer at the heart of the party that has led to leading light using
:33:10. > :33:13.Ukip as a football. You have huge problems in Wales, its huge problems
:33:14. > :33:21.with the NEC, an issue with Nathan Gill, with many favoured candidates
:33:22. > :33:24.who ended up not standing, senior colleagues falling out, membership
:33:25. > :33:28.and funding declining, which bit of that is not dysfunctional? Thank you
:33:29. > :33:33.for reminding me of the issues I have got to tackle over the next few
:33:34. > :33:37.weeks. I made it clear in my events around the country that I would have
:33:38. > :33:40.a 100 day plan, focusing on precisely the sort of issues you
:33:41. > :33:45.have outlined. I don't agree with one of them, by any means, but in
:33:46. > :33:50.100 days I hope to be able to show that we are turning a corner and
:33:51. > :33:53.that we are embarking on a new era. You claim you will be the real
:33:54. > :34:00.opposition to Government but you only have one semidetached MP in
:34:01. > :34:04.Westminster, it is delusional? No, it is not, look where we are at this
:34:05. > :34:08.point, potentially four by-elections, we said we would not
:34:09. > :34:14.stand in one out of respect to Jo Cox but three others, look at those
:34:15. > :34:18.by-elections in the context of the dysfunctional position Labour is in,
:34:19. > :34:22.and we are ripe to take those seats. Do you accept your only MP, Douglas
:34:23. > :34:27.Carswell, is pretty semidetached at best? I would not call him
:34:28. > :34:31.semidetached, I heard the speech he gave at the conference, the
:34:32. > :34:34.endorsement he gave me and the endorsement he has given
:34:35. > :34:38.subsequently, and I see him as being a member of the Ukip team going
:34:39. > :34:45.forward. You have asked to move a Private members Bill to invoke
:34:46. > :34:49.article 50, has he agreed? He stated he would do his level best. That is
:34:50. > :34:54.not the same as agreeing. He made the point that there is another
:34:55. > :34:56.option, to repeal the European communities act and instigate a
:34:57. > :34:59.debate on that. We have an individual prepared to launch a two
:35:00. > :35:04.pronged attack in the House of Commons and forced Theresa May into
:35:05. > :35:12.doing something. A two pronged one-man attack. He told me on Friday
:35:13. > :35:16.that Ukip should be, quote, a free-market Libertarian party. If
:35:17. > :35:21.that your vision? If I can remind you, from my speech, my vision is
:35:22. > :35:25.probably slightly different words, it is global, positive, outward
:35:26. > :35:29.looking, enterprise building and making this country great again
:35:30. > :35:36.outside of the EU control. But if it free-market and libertarian? That is
:35:37. > :35:42.his vision, I am trying to work out the vision -- if the vision of your
:35:43. > :35:47.only MP is the same as the new leader? OK, I will say it is the
:35:48. > :35:51.same. So you are free-market and libertarianism? Yes, we are about
:35:52. > :35:56.enterprise Britain... Given the leadership campaign was a policy
:35:57. > :36:01.free zone, what will be the most distinctive policies Ukip will stand
:36:02. > :36:06.for under Diane James? Certainly the issue of migration and immigration,
:36:07. > :36:10.certainly the issue of defence, giving us back the ability to defend
:36:11. > :36:17.this country... These are existing policies? No, these need a major
:36:18. > :36:21.refresh out of EU control. The aspect of Homeland Security, the
:36:22. > :36:24.aspect we have not got a functioning Border Force, we have not got a
:36:25. > :36:30.functioning passport control system, we have even got a Home Secretary
:36:31. > :36:33.continuing the project via aspect of we have even got a Home Secretary
:36:34. > :36:39.a beaver charge for people going into Europe or coming to the UK.
:36:40. > :36:45.Absolutely bizarre. I am just trying to find out what the policies will
:36:46. > :36:49.be. The major one for me, given my background, the state that the NHS
:36:50. > :36:53.is in, and if we can show a very clear vision and stand up to what
:36:54. > :36:58.Jeremy Hunt is doing in terms of decimating the NHS, I will be
:36:59. > :37:11.delighted. You will agree that is not a policy but an attitude...
:37:12. > :37:15.It is a policy in terms of the NHS. We don't know about the policy
:37:16. > :37:16.because you refused to debate with other candidates during the
:37:17. > :37:19.leadership campaign and campaigned on a no policy platform, white? I
:37:20. > :37:23.launched my own series of national events, nationwide, and I gave
:37:24. > :37:26.members and activists, and, in fact, the press, the media, anybody who
:37:27. > :37:32.wanted to come along, there was not a bar in terms of membership only,
:37:33. > :37:36.to come along and interact with me for two hours. That gave
:37:37. > :37:40.individuals, all of the members in the audience, a solid two hours to
:37:41. > :37:43.scrutinise what I had to say. That was a much higher quality programme
:37:44. > :37:49.that anything hustings would have given. But why not debate with your
:37:50. > :37:53.rivals? Because there was no need, we were not fighting a general
:37:54. > :37:57.election, we were fighting, if you wish to use the phrase, to elect the
:37:58. > :38:00.new leader of Ukip, and I chose to go direct to the members, to
:38:01. > :38:05.interact with them directly and give them quality time with me and
:38:06. > :38:09.respond to all of their questions. Many think Ukip's best chance is to
:38:10. > :38:13.win over disaffected working-class Labour voters in the north, so how
:38:14. > :38:21.does the epitome of the Home Counties bourgeoisie do that? You
:38:22. > :38:25.tell me! It is not my job. I have never heard such convoluted
:38:26. > :38:29.language! Can you simplify that so we know what you are talking about?
:38:30. > :38:34.There have been a number of leaders your party could have chosen, Paul
:38:35. > :38:39.Nuttall, Steven Woolfe, who would have had a clear, more distinct
:38:40. > :38:46.appeal to the north. Paul Michael chose not to stand. You need to ask
:38:47. > :38:52.him his reason. I'm just asking how you will appeal to the North. Steven
:38:53. > :38:55.Woolfe, a superb colleague of mine, regretfully there were issues in
:38:56. > :38:59.terms of getting his information in in time. The point I have made
:39:00. > :39:04.throughout my programme of events is that I want to have two chiefs of
:39:05. > :39:07.staff, people who will ably assist me in developing our programme, our
:39:08. > :39:11.policies, our strategy is to appeal both to the north and also the
:39:12. > :39:15.policies, our strategy is to appeal south. What will you do about Wales,
:39:16. > :39:28.where Ukip seems to be involved in civil war? I will ask Neil Hamilton
:39:29. > :39:31.to focus on Welsh Assembly, on winning the elections in Wales, and
:39:32. > :39:33.I will ask Nathan to continue doing a superb job he does in terms of
:39:34. > :39:36.representing Wales in the European Union and Parliament, and in the
:39:37. > :39:39.voting in Strasbourg. So you will have two Kings? No, Nathan has my
:39:40. > :39:43.complete and utter support, he has had a huge legacy in terms of his
:39:44. > :39:48.membership, a huge wealth of knowledge in terms of the issues
:39:49. > :39:54.facing Wales if Mrs May does not action about to leave the European
:39:55. > :40:00.Union. He has got my full support. Neil, I am asking you, step up to
:40:01. > :40:06.the plate, but focus on Wales and the assembly. One of your party's
:40:07. > :40:12.main funders was an errant banks, in the process of turning leave. EU
:40:13. > :40:16.into a momentum of the right, to mirror the Jeremy Corbyn movement on
:40:17. > :40:27.the left, do you have a problem with that? I have just been elected head
:40:28. > :40:31.of a political party. If he wishes to support a political movement,
:40:32. > :40:36.that is his decision. Other than Vladimir Putin, who is your main
:40:37. > :40:41.political hero? Certainly not Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. I did not
:40:42. > :40:45.ask who was not, who is? I cannot think of anybody apart from Margaret
:40:46. > :40:48.Thatcher and Winston Churchill. think of anybody apart from Margaret
:40:49. > :40:53.Putin, Churchill and Thatcher. We hope to see you again. Thank you.
:40:54. > :40:59.It's just gone 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:41:00. > :41:01.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:41:02. > :41:10.The man charged with improving education in Scotland tells this
:41:11. > :41:12.programme money may soon be sent directly to schools,
:41:13. > :41:17.And I'll be asking the leader of the fifth largest party
:41:18. > :41:21.in the Scottish Parliament if the Liberal Democrats can avoid
:41:22. > :41:27.But first, it's two years to the day since the Independence referendum,
:41:28. > :41:30.billed at the time by senior members of the SNP as a
:41:31. > :41:34.Well, two years really is a long time in politics.
:41:35. > :41:36.Since 2014 we've seen the return of a majority Conservative
:41:37. > :41:39.government and Britain voting to leave the European Union.
:41:40. > :41:41.Yes campaigners were out yesterday campaigning for another
:41:42. > :41:48.No campaigners were also out, arguing against another referendum.
:41:49. > :41:49.Well, I'm joined now by David Mundell,
:41:50. > :41:54.He made a speech yesterday arguing another referendum is that last
:41:55. > :42:07.Despite what you are arguing, Alex Salmond says the British Government
:42:08. > :42:13.will mess up Brexit, and there will be another referendum within two
:42:14. > :42:16.years. I think it is quite clear now that the SNP position is
:42:17. > :42:19.independence at any cost. The pretence we had two years ago that
:42:20. > :42:24.somehow independence would be economically beneficial, but it
:42:25. > :42:27.would lead to prosperity in Scotland, has been abandoned. It is
:42:28. > :42:31.clear that Mr Salmond and others just want independence. That is
:42:32. > :42:35.quite clearly what they are obsessed about, regardless of the fact that
:42:36. > :42:39.they signed the Edinburgh agreement to say that the result of the
:42:40. > :42:42.referendum would be respected, despite saying immediately before
:42:43. > :42:47.the referendum that it would be a once in a generation event. People
:42:48. > :42:51.in Scotland have voted decisively to remain in the United Kingdom. We
:42:52. > :42:55.need to respect that and get on with the other challenges we face, such
:42:56. > :42:59.as the day-to-day business of taking forward the Scottish Government's
:43:00. > :43:03.programme. We should be focusing on that. In terms of Brexit, we did to
:43:04. > :43:09.come together, Scottish Government and UK Government, to get the best
:43:10. > :43:12.possible deal for Scotland. In an article today in one of the
:43:13. > :43:17.newspapers, Ruth Davidson says she agrees with Jim Sellers that the SNP
:43:18. > :43:25.Government has no mandate for another referendum. But both Ruth
:43:26. > :43:28.Davidson herself and indeed you yourself have said previously on
:43:29. > :43:33.this programme that you think the British Government should not stop a
:43:34. > :43:40.second referendum if the SNP Government wants to have one. Is
:43:41. > :43:42.that still your position? Our position is quite clear. Of course
:43:43. > :43:47.there could be another referendum. That is the sort of process issue
:43:48. > :43:51.that the SNP want to get involved in. The argument is whether there
:43:52. > :43:57.should be another referendum. And Ruth Davidson and I are absolutely
:43:58. > :43:59.clear, as is Theresa May, as is the majority of people in Scotland, that
:44:00. > :44:04.there should not be another referendum. There is an opinion poll
:44:05. > :44:07.today that shows two thirds of people, even a significant number of
:44:08. > :44:12.people who support independence, saying that they do not want to go
:44:13. > :44:15.back to the division and divisiveness that the independence
:44:16. > :44:18.referendum brought. We made the decision, it was supposed to be a
:44:19. > :44:26.once in a generation decision, let's stick by that and move on. And let's
:44:27. > :44:29.come together so that working together, the UK Government and
:44:30. > :44:32.Scottish Government, can get the best possible deal for Scotland and
:44:33. > :44:37.the UK out of these wrecks it negotiations. Later in this
:44:38. > :44:40.programme we have an interview with the leader of the Scottish Liberal
:44:41. > :44:45.Democrats, Willie Rennie, in that interview he says it would be
:44:46. > :44:52.disgraceful if members of Parliament were not given a vote on the final
:44:53. > :44:57.deal on Brexit. Is he right? I've made it clear that Parliament both
:44:58. > :45:03.in Scotland and the UK will have a significant say over the
:45:04. > :45:08.negotiations for leaving the EU. The parliament will not be a negotiating
:45:09. > :45:13.the deal. It will be for the Government to negotiate the deal.
:45:14. > :45:16.But Parliament will have a say, and will inevitably be involved in the
:45:17. > :45:21.legislative necessities which will follow from the exit from the EU. It
:45:22. > :45:26.is wrong to suggest that argument will not be significantly involved
:45:27. > :45:30.in scrutinising and having a say in the EU negotiations and the final
:45:31. > :45:35.agreement. Will the British Parliament be able to vote yea or
:45:36. > :45:43.nay on the final deal for leaving the European Union? Parliament will
:45:44. > :45:44.be part of the process in terms of scrutinising that, holding the
:45:45. > :45:48.be part of the process in terms of Government to account. But this was
:45:49. > :45:52.a decision by the British public over the whole of the United Kingdom
:45:53. > :45:56.that the United Kingdom should leave the EU, and that is the UK
:45:57. > :46:03.Government's mandate for negotiating agreement. That agreement will
:46:04. > :46:07.inevitably involve legal processes, probably legislation, to enable the
:46:08. > :46:12.agreements to be implemented, and of course Parliament will have the
:46:13. > :46:13.decisive say over that legislation. So Parliament will be able to say
:46:14. > :46:18.yea or nay to the final deal on the So Parliament will be able to say
:46:19. > :46:25.European Union common leaving, is that what you are saying? I think
:46:26. > :46:31.I've explained twice that Parliament will be involved in the process. It
:46:32. > :46:34.is already begun, both in Scotland and Westminster, where there have
:46:35. > :46:38.been significant debates already. There have been questions,
:46:39. > :46:45.scrutiny... You said this before, but... That process will continue
:46:46. > :46:49.throughout. At the end of the process, what I've just said, is
:46:50. > :46:53.that clearly legislation will inevitably flow from bidding
:46:54. > :46:58.agreement into place, and Parliament will have the final say on that. But
:46:59. > :47:01.Parliament will not have the final say on whether Britain leaves the
:47:02. > :47:06.EU. The British people have made that decision, and the Government
:47:07. > :47:09.will implement it. So you don't foresee the Government at some point
:47:10. > :47:14.coming back to Parliament and saying, we have had negotiations
:47:15. > :47:19.with the European Union, here is what the deal is, you can accept or
:47:20. > :47:24.reject it? I expect that the Government will keep both
:47:25. > :47:28.parliaments fully involved in the process as the negotiations
:47:29. > :47:32.continue, and allow them to scrutinise the deal. But it will be
:47:33. > :47:36.for the Government to determine the deal. The British people have
:47:37. > :47:42.mandated them to do that through voting to leave the EU in our
:47:43. > :47:47.referendum. Many people would argue that what you are saying, which is
:47:48. > :47:51.that in effect there will be no chance for Parliament to reject a
:47:52. > :47:56.final deal on leaving the European Union, is quite a fundamental
:47:57. > :48:05.undermining of British Parliamentary democracy. We have had a referendum,
:48:06. > :48:09.adding that referendum people across the UK voted to leave the EU. The
:48:10. > :48:15.Government respects that verdict and will implement it. Just as, if two
:48:16. > :48:18.years ago today, Scotland has voted to leave the United Kingdom. That
:48:19. > :48:24.decision would have been implemented. And some of the very
:48:25. > :48:26.people who are at the forefront of alleged outrage at Parliamentary
:48:27. > :48:36.scrutiny of this deal would have been making absolute hay and call
:48:37. > :48:41.them if they thought the UK Parliament could override the
:48:42. > :48:43.referendum result. The referendum results are mandates to the
:48:44. > :48:49.Government to carry out the wishes of the people, and that is what we
:48:50. > :48:53.are doing. Can I ask, this idea that Parliament will not have a final
:48:54. > :48:57.chance to reject a Brexit deal, whatever that deal should turn out,
:48:58. > :49:06.is this something you have discussed in Cabinet? Is this the position of
:49:07. > :49:11.the British Cabinet? The Government and to Reza may have made it quite
:49:12. > :49:16.clear that Parliament -- Government and to Reza may have made it clear
:49:17. > :49:20.that there will not be a second referendum to override the decision
:49:21. > :49:24.to leave the youth. Parliament and indeed the Scottish Parliament will
:49:25. > :49:29.be fully involved in scrutinising this process as negotiations
:49:30. > :49:33.proceed, although there will not be a running commentary on
:49:34. > :49:39.negotiations, and there will not be negotiation by Parliament, but
:49:40. > :49:42.Parliament will be fully involved. As I explained in my previous
:49:43. > :49:49.answers, Parliament will of course have to pass legislation in relation
:49:50. > :49:53.to the likely process of except from the EU, and Parliament will have the
:49:54. > :49:58.definitive say in relation to those arrangements. But what it won't be
:49:59. > :50:04.able to do, it will not be able to override the will of the British
:50:05. > :50:05.people to leave the EU. We will have to live there. David Mundell, thank
:50:06. > :50:11.you for joining us. The Scottish Government has
:50:12. > :50:13.made its defining mission for this Parliamentary term the closing
:50:14. > :50:15.of the attainment gap It wants to turn around a schools
:50:16. > :50:19.system which is failing pupils But critics fear this is just
:50:20. > :50:23.a twin-pronged attack on councils, which are fiercely protective
:50:24. > :50:25.of their pivotal role A little earlier I spoke to
:50:26. > :50:41.the Eduction Secretary John Swinney. Before we talk about education, we
:50:42. > :50:44.should mention the second anniversary of the independence
:50:45. > :50:49.referendum. Alex Salmond has been saying another one in two years,
:50:50. > :50:53.Nicola Sturgeon wrote a piece this morning she did not mention a time
:50:54. > :50:59.frame. What is your view? I think the debate about independence is
:51:00. > :51:03.still a dominant part of Scottish politics, because the events of the
:51:04. > :51:07.last few months have brought all the issues of the democratic choice of
:51:08. > :51:10.the people of Scotland into focus with the decision of the UK to leave
:51:11. > :51:15.the European Union, against the wishes of the people of Scotland. So
:51:16. > :51:19.I think the debate is very much alive. The First Minister has set
:51:20. > :51:22.out clearly that our priority is to negotiate the protection of
:51:23. > :51:27.Scotland's relationship with the EU, but that is not able to be achieved,
:51:28. > :51:31.then the option of an independence referendum is highly likely as a
:51:32. > :51:37.consequence. Within two years, Alex Salmond says. Do you agree? I think
:51:38. > :51:41.it is dependent very much on the negotiations take a lease with the
:51:42. > :51:46.UK Government and the European Union on the UK's exit from the European
:51:47. > :51:49.Union. Those timescales are difficult to nail down at this
:51:50. > :51:53.stage, but undoubtedly the approach the First Minister has taken off
:51:54. > :51:56.saying that our priority is to protect our EU membership for
:51:57. > :52:01.Scotland, even that that is what people voted for in the referendum
:52:02. > :52:04.back in June, we have to prioritise that, and that is exactly what the
:52:05. > :52:09.Government has been doing. It is why Mike Russell was in Europe during
:52:10. > :52:13.the week taking four of those negotiations, and the outcome of
:52:14. > :52:16.those negotiations will create the conditions as to whether there is
:52:17. > :52:23.another independence referendum and when that might take place. In your
:52:24. > :52:27.new job running education, you announced last week in review of the
:52:28. > :52:30.way that schools are run, and you said you wanted to devolve
:52:31. > :52:33.decision-making to schools. I am curious to get some examples of the
:52:34. > :52:41.kind of thing where you want evolution to schools. What I have
:52:42. > :52:47.started is a discussion with the whole of the public in Scotland, a
:52:48. > :52:50.very wide and open consultation, based on the principle that I
:52:51. > :52:54.believe it is in the best interests of the educational journey of young
:52:55. > :52:57.people in Scotland if decisions about their education are taken as
:52:58. > :53:02.close to those young people as possible, within schools. I want to
:53:03. > :53:06.open up a debate about what are the right issues, the right questions,
:53:07. > :53:10.the right decisions that should be taken close to young people in
:53:11. > :53:16.schools, which decisions should be taken at another level. I understand
:53:17. > :53:18.that, I am curious as to the sort of examples you may people together of
:53:19. > :53:24.things that could be devolved to schools. It might be choices about
:53:25. > :53:28.the commissioning of particular services to come into schools. To
:53:29. > :53:31.give you an example, I visited a school the other week with a have a
:53:32. > :53:36.particular challenge for primary children who have a vocabulary gap
:53:37. > :53:39.when the primary children come to school in the first place, and the
:53:40. > :53:43.school has taken decisions within the reports as available to them to
:53:44. > :53:50.have a speech therapist available, not a referral, but in the classroom
:53:51. > :53:53.all the time, helping young people to overcome challenges they face in
:53:54. > :53:56.vocabulary. That is one practical example of where a headteacher is
:53:57. > :54:01.able to take decisions about resources that are available to them
:54:02. > :54:07.to take a very specific different course to ones that might be taken
:54:08. > :54:11.in other schools. That is what the children in that school require the
:54:12. > :54:13.most. It is decisions of that nature, decisions that will make a
:54:14. > :54:17.difference to the educational achievement of young people. There
:54:18. > :54:24.is some concern among local authorities that they may lose
:54:25. > :54:27.power. Is it your intention that decisions which are present made by
:54:28. > :54:33.local authorities should no longer be made by them? There may be some
:54:34. > :54:40.decisions taken by local authorities that would be taken by schools
:54:41. > :54:42.instead. For example, if further financial flexibility is devolved to
:54:43. > :54:46.individual schools and they are able to take decisions about the way
:54:47. > :54:49.resources are used within schools, then conceivably some of these
:54:50. > :54:56.decisions would have been taken by local authorities in the past. That
:54:57. > :55:01.would mean money going directly to schools and bypassing local
:55:02. > :55:05.authorities. That is what we will consult about as part of the
:55:06. > :55:08.governance review, it is an exercise that will be undertaken in March
:55:09. > :55:11.next year. It is entirely conceivable that is what would
:55:12. > :55:14.happen, because it would give schools the ability to take
:55:15. > :55:17.decisions that relate directly to the educational opportunities for
:55:18. > :55:22.young people in Scotland. But I have also made it clear that I want local
:55:23. > :55:25.authorities to retain democratic control over education services
:55:26. > :55:28.within Scotland, but that I want to encourage a much greater degree of
:55:29. > :55:33.cooperation between local authorities in how the use their
:55:34. > :55:39.services to add value to the educational experience of young
:55:40. > :55:43.people. What would your reply Peter local authorities who would say, if
:55:44. > :55:46.money is going to go directly from central Government to schools and
:55:47. > :55:50.bypass local authorities as you have just said is quite conceivable under
:55:51. > :55:56.what you're suggesting, they would say, that does erode, the democratic
:55:57. > :56:05.accountability of schools to local authorities.
:56:06. > :56:14.There has to be democratic accountability in all aspects of our
:56:15. > :56:18.public services, and part of the consultation is exploring exactly
:56:19. > :56:31.how we can take that forward to ensure that we have that
:56:32. > :56:37.relationship of accountability. But fundamentally the question that the
:56:38. > :56:42.consultation is asking is how can we best structure Scottish education in
:56:43. > :56:44.a way that ensures the key educational relationship between
:56:45. > :56:46.teachers and pupils is enhanced and supported by the intervention of
:56:47. > :56:48.other bodies and institutions? That is not just about local authorities,
:56:49. > :56:50.that is about education in Scotland, the inspectorate, the involvement of
:56:51. > :56:56.government, the involvement of a whole range of other players to make
:56:57. > :56:58.sure we get the right balance to support and develop education within
:56:59. > :57:01.Scotland. You have ruled out selective schools and grammar
:57:02. > :57:04.schools in your review. But would it be possible for some schools to be
:57:05. > :57:09.organised outside local authority control, for example by trusts
:57:10. > :57:14.formed off parents and teachers? It is not part of my proposition or
:57:15. > :57:19.make plans I have set out this week. What I am asking is how do we take
:57:20. > :57:24.forward the best structuring of Scottish education within a system
:57:25. > :57:29.of local democratic accountability, but by empowering schools to take
:57:30. > :57:31.more decisions about the opportunities and challenges that
:57:32. > :57:36.face young people in the education system? It does not form part of my
:57:37. > :57:40.plans that such an approach would be taken because I believe that every
:57:41. > :57:47.community in the country, young people should be entitled to go into
:57:48. > :57:48.it a school and receive an education that will be delivered in an
:57:49. > :57:54.atmosphere of excellence within that atmosphere of excellence within that
:57:55. > :57:58.-- within an atmosphere of equity, where we can challenge the
:57:59. > :58:01.attainment gap and close it, and where we can support young people to
:58:02. > :58:03.achieve their potential, no matter where they enter the education
:58:04. > :58:07.system in Scotland. The new regional education board, you have referred
:58:08. > :58:12.to them already, will they have any formal role in the way schools are
:58:13. > :58:20.run, or are they for exchanging ideas? The issue I am raising there
:58:21. > :58:25.is about the quality and strength of the support service that can be
:58:26. > :58:28.provided, principally on educational issues, to enhance educational
:58:29. > :58:38.opportunities in individual schools. So what I want to encourage, and
:58:39. > :58:43.this is largely a responds to the OECD report, to strengthen the
:58:44. > :58:46.middle of Scottish education, to encourage local authorities to work
:58:47. > :58:51.together, to strengthen the support services in place to develop
:58:52. > :58:57.educational potential within Scottish schools, and make sure
:58:58. > :59:01.young people are beneficiaries as a consequence. So the proposals at a
:59:02. > :59:05.collaboration between local authorities. They are not an extra
:59:06. > :59:08.level of authority, they are collaboration between authorities to
:59:09. > :59:12.make sure support services to education are strengthened as a
:59:13. > :59:18.consequence. Your main task and the task Nicola Sturgeon has set herself
:59:19. > :59:23.is to reduce the so-called attainment gap. She wants to be
:59:24. > :59:30.judge on that. This might sound like a really daft question, but what is
:59:31. > :59:32.it we are measuring here? Because attainment gap could mean the
:59:33. > :59:36.difference between the lowest performing pupils and the best
:59:37. > :59:41.performing in each individual school, or the difference across
:59:42. > :59:46.Scotland, or it could mean the number of students from lower income
:59:47. > :59:53.backgrounds which end up going on to university. What is your definition
:59:54. > :59:58.of the attainment gap? Firstly, there is nothing wrong with there
:59:59. > :00:03.being a number of different measures of the attainment gap within
:00:04. > :00:04.Scotland, because on almost all the measures you mentioned, they are all
:00:05. > :00:07.legitimate measures to be measures you mentioned, they are all
:00:08. > :00:11.considered. Essentially what we have to demonstrate its progress on a
:00:12. > :00:17.number of fronts because the attainment gap could be measured as
:00:18. > :00:23.the vocabulary gap of children who enter primary one. That could be one
:00:24. > :00:26.major of the attainment gap, another major could be the proportion of
:00:27. > :00:31.young people from deprived backgrounds going to higher
:00:32. > :00:35.education compared to young people from more comfortable backgrounds.
:00:36. > :00:37.So there is a variety of different measures. Presumably you will
:00:38. > :00:43.publish benchmarks you want to attain so that we can judge whether
:00:44. > :00:47.you have a paying them. We cannot do what Nicola Sturgeon wants to judge
:00:48. > :00:51.her on this, unless we know what we are judging. That is precisely
:00:52. > :00:55.correct, which is why the National improvement framework has been set
:00:56. > :00:57.out and why we are gathering the information to inform the National
:00:58. > :01:02.improvement framework and will publish some of this material later
:01:03. > :01:07.this year which will show, essentially, one starting point for
:01:08. > :01:10.that assessment, and then we will be able to look at comparative data
:01:11. > :01:15.over the next few years to see how much progress has been made, then we
:01:16. > :01:18.will be able to be judged on that. The clear point I would make is that
:01:19. > :01:23.there are a number of specific measures of the attainment gap, and
:01:24. > :01:28.that is not good enough to close one of them but not the others, we have
:01:29. > :01:30.to close all elements of the attainment gap, which is why the
:01:31. > :01:34.national improvement framework has been established, to gather the data
:01:35. > :01:36.together, to publish it and have an open conversation about our
:01:37. > :01:43.performance in tackling that, and to put in place the resources and
:01:44. > :01:54.mechanisms to make sure we are successful.
:01:55. > :02:02.Rate, I am now strapped into a seat so I cannot wonder about aimlessly!
:02:03. > :02:05.In the space of five years they went from coalition government to having
:02:06. > :02:09.In Holyrood, where once too they helped run the country,
:02:10. > :02:11.they're now the fifth party behind the Greens.
:02:12. > :02:13.So when the Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron claimed yesterday
:02:14. > :02:16.that the party is now "stronger and more relevant than ever",
:02:17. > :02:19.you'd be forgiven for thinking that all the pressure may have driven him
:02:20. > :02:22.A little earlier I spoke to the Scottish Liberal Democrat's
:02:23. > :02:29.Even the most optimistic Liberal Democrat standing in the sunshine
:02:30. > :02:34.could not claim things were going well for the party at the moment.
:02:35. > :02:43.How was this conference going to change things round? Well, 20,000
:02:44. > :02:45.new members, games from the SNP in the Scottish elections, vibrancy
:02:46. > :02:51.following the Brexit thought that we are the party that stands up for the
:02:52. > :02:57.UK and the European Union together means that we're in the best we have
:02:58. > :03:03.been for some time. So I am very optimistic and especially because we
:03:04. > :03:07.are in the sunshine in Brighton. But you say that Europe is going to be
:03:08. > :03:13.your big issue, that is the main thing you're going to focus on? That
:03:14. > :03:17.is the big aspect that has divided the country. That, combined with
:03:18. > :03:22.Nicola Sturgeon's clear determined effort to seek independence in the
:03:23. > :03:28.middle of all this turmoil. I think what we should be doing is setting
:03:29. > :03:32.forward a very clear message that Scotland is best placed in the
:03:33. > :03:36.United Kingdom and also in the European Union, and Liberal
:03:37. > :03:41.Democrats are unique in standing for that with a progressive platform, we
:03:42. > :03:43.are united in that support. So the combination of all those issues
:03:44. > :03:49.means we are rejecting the dismal prospect of the division that is
:03:50. > :03:53.proposed by the SNP and the Tories on the constitution. You say there
:03:54. > :03:59.is a divide between you and the SNP in Europe. The SNP Government here
:04:00. > :04:08.is arguing for staying in the single market. You presumably would agree
:04:09. > :04:12.with that? Of course we would agree that we should be in the single
:04:13. > :04:15.market, but not for one minute do I believe Nicola Sturgeon is doing
:04:16. > :04:20.this because she is pro-European, she is doing this because she wants
:04:21. > :04:29.independence, that is what has driven her household -- driven her
:04:30. > :04:35.whole elliptical life. I reject it. I do not believe her pronouncements
:04:36. > :04:40.on the European Union because it is for her, all about independence.
:04:41. > :04:44.Yes, but what you're seeing now is there is nothing to differentiate
:04:45. > :04:49.the SNP on the issue of Europe itself, it is just that you do not
:04:50. > :04:55.agree with independence. Yes, but what I would not trust is an SNP
:04:56. > :05:01.leader who is driven by the desire to break up Britain rather than
:05:02. > :05:05.having the best possible relationship with the European
:05:06. > :05:10.Union. I want somebody who can aspire to have the best possible
:05:11. > :05:14.solution, which is to be in the United Kingdom and the European
:05:15. > :05:17.Union, and that is what Liberal Democrats are uniquely fighting for.
:05:18. > :05:24.In the elections in May, we set forward a very progressive upbeat
:05:25. > :05:29.platform on investing in mental health services, having the best
:05:30. > :05:31.education system in the world, guaranteeing our civil liberties and
:05:32. > :05:36.protecting the environment. We wanted that to be the focus over
:05:37. > :05:47.this next political period. But as a result of the Tory chaos and the SNP
:05:48. > :05:51.desire to return to the independence referendum... We want to get back on
:05:52. > :05:55.with the day job of making Scotland one of the best countries in the
:05:56. > :05:59.world again. What are you arguing for, another referendum, for a
:06:00. > :06:04.parliamentary vote on the final deal, or what? We are very clear,
:06:05. > :06:10.what we want is the British people to have a say on whatever deal the
:06:11. > :06:16.Conservative government negotiate with the European Union. That means
:06:17. > :06:22.a referendum? Yes. What we did not know on the 23rd of June was exactly
:06:23. > :06:25.what Brexit would mean. I think when the detail becomes clear it would be
:06:26. > :06:32.only right for the British people to have a say on what the final deal
:06:33. > :06:36.is. It is the only democratic thing we should be doing, which is why we
:06:37. > :06:40.would support another referendum, not to rerun the referendum on the
:06:41. > :06:44.23rd of June, but to have a final say on the deal that is agreed.
:06:45. > :06:48.There have been some suggestions that not only should there not be
:06:49. > :06:53.another referendum, but that Parliament will not be able to vote
:06:54. > :06:59.on a final deal, at least it won't be able to veto a final deal on
:07:00. > :07:06.would your reaction be to that idea? would your reaction be to that idea?
:07:07. > :07:08.-- what would your reaction be? There is a lot of discussion going
:07:09. > :07:13.-- what would your reaction be? on, we will need to see what comes.
:07:14. > :07:15.But what I think would be a disgrace would be if the Conservative
:07:16. > :07:19.Government was to deny Parliament and the British people are final say
:07:20. > :07:23.on the deal. They did not know the deal on the 23rd of June. When we do
:07:24. > :07:27.know the deal, that is when we should have a say on future. We
:07:28. > :07:32.should be arguing that we should be remaining in the European Union
:07:33. > :07:33.because it is the best thing for Scotland and Britain. Thank you very
:07:34. > :07:37.much indeed, Willie Rennie. Tend to look back to the events of
:07:38. > :07:45.the past week, and see what's Here with me now are the journalist
:07:46. > :07:49.David Torrance and the former Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret
:07:50. > :07:57.Curran. First of all, what David Mandel and
:07:58. > :08:01.Willie Rennie were saying about this process of exactly how Brexit is
:08:02. > :08:07.going to happen is becoming more mysterious. I think it is just
:08:08. > :08:11.another illustration of just how little preparation those that were
:08:12. > :08:14.arguing for a Brexit gave to the whole process and shows that a
:08:15. > :08:19.referendum obviously does not -- some things doesn't solve a problem.
:08:20. > :08:24.It is hard to argue that Parliament can have no say in how the final
:08:25. > :08:31.policy evolves, whatever the final deal is. You need to have some
:08:32. > :08:36.parliamentary scrutiny. You cannot overtime the national decision of a
:08:37. > :08:40.referendum, but there must be some role to get into the detail. You
:08:41. > :08:51.cannot like a Prime Minister and Boris Johnson make deals... That is
:08:52. > :08:55.going to be a big argument has it all unravels. I think a lot of MPs
:08:56. > :08:59.would probably accept that they will not be able to reverse the decision
:09:00. > :09:03.of the referendum, but I suspect a lot of them think they will be able
:09:04. > :09:07.to say yes or no to whatever the deal is? Yes, but obviously that
:09:08. > :09:13.would come much further down the line, at 2019, assuming it is
:09:14. > :09:19.triggered. But this is being disputed, if it will be triggered in
:09:20. > :09:28.January or February. The European act in 1992 the way -- 1972, needs
:09:29. > :09:31.to be repealed, and that cannot be done in parliament. I am not sure
:09:32. > :09:35.how they will get round that. I am not sure it is straightforward.
:09:36. > :09:41.Isn't the way round it in technical parliamentary terms the Vote Leave
:09:42. > :09:49.the European Union is a simple repeal, and ideal on a new trade
:09:50. > :09:52.relationship is actually a different piece of legislation? Referendum is
:09:53. > :10:01.at advisory constitution is, and that cannot repeal legislation.
:10:02. > :10:08.Bashley at advisory constitution only. Presumably there is a lot to
:10:09. > :10:14.the place if you just come out, there is a lot of laws that have to
:10:15. > :10:16.be addressed and presumably put on the agenda. I do not think David
:10:17. > :10:20.Mandel was suggesting Parliament would not have a vote on that, but
:10:21. > :10:27.the suggestion that there was no definitive vote on the final deal.
:10:28. > :10:35.It will be interesting to see our Parliament works around that. There
:10:36. > :10:39.is not a majority in both houses in London and Scotland for Brexit and
:10:40. > :10:43.this could reflect a degree of nervousness about putting that to a
:10:44. > :10:48.vote. Second anniversary of the independence referendum. And we're
:10:49. > :10:52.still talking to each other! It is interesting some of the newspaper,
:10:53. > :10:57.we have today about the independence referendum and back to independence
:10:58. > :11:01.being the end of everything else we do, no place for any other
:11:02. > :11:04.discussion. And I'm not sure. I don't think that will go down
:11:05. > :11:09.terribly well with people. We cannot spend all their time talking about
:11:10. > :11:11.Rexach, talking about another independence referendum on the
:11:12. > :11:17.recent much work to be done in Scotland. And I think the kind of
:11:18. > :11:19.momentum and energy that the Yes campaign understandably mobilised,
:11:20. > :11:23.and you have to acknowledge that, I think that will dissipate over a
:11:24. > :11:29.period of time. I think people are anxious for a real change. You were
:11:30. > :11:33.watching John Swinney forensically, and you thought he was being... I
:11:34. > :11:35.must admit I did not pick it up and I was talking to him, but you
:11:36. > :11:41.thought he was being rather more cautious than he appeared to be on
:11:42. > :11:43.the referendum. He repeated something which Nicola Sturgeon and
:11:44. > :11:49.other Nationalists have suggested, that they don't see Article 50 as a
:11:50. > :11:54.decision on another independence referendum. As I think I heard John
:11:55. > :11:59.Swinney say, they would have to wait and see the final deal that emerges,
:12:00. > :12:04.and that suggests that they will not make a decision about another
:12:05. > :12:07.independence referendum until 2019, not 2018 as Alex Salmond and others
:12:08. > :12:11.on the usual manoeuvres have suggested. So I think they are
:12:12. > :12:14.playing the long game on this, and abetting that has emerged, all the
:12:15. > :12:18.mood music, points to another independence referendum later rather
:12:19. > :12:22.than sooner. Which you can understand from their point of view,
:12:23. > :12:25.to some extent, because if you look at the back, it was the second
:12:26. > :12:30.referendum that actually killed a lot of the momentum for
:12:31. > :12:34.independence. So to lose a second one would be very difficult for the
:12:35. > :12:37.independence movement. So they have to be very careful and calculated.
:12:38. > :12:46.But I do think there is more mental moving. Lament in what direction? --
:12:47. > :12:52.momentum in what direction? I think the captured desire for real change
:12:53. > :12:55.and my side of the argument did not reach out to that. They did want
:12:56. > :12:59.change, they wanted a different country. Politics became less about
:13:00. > :13:03.what you're going to achieve and more the kind of people you are. You
:13:04. > :13:08.think there is momentum for having another referendum? I think people
:13:09. > :13:12.who voted Yes, a lot of people want that referendum, they want that
:13:13. > :13:19.change. Reducing to be suggesting there was momentum to having another
:13:20. > :13:22.one. Let me try to be clear. I think those that voted Yes in the
:13:23. > :13:25.referendum are very keen to have another one so that they can create
:13:26. > :13:30.that change. If you are trying to manage that in a longer-term
:13:31. > :13:34.basis... And in the background, David Torrence, the opinion polls,
:13:35. > :13:41.the suggestion earlier in the year was 60%. I think that has gone out
:13:42. > :13:45.the window. It solves have said it is an unrealisable goal, it is much
:13:46. > :13:46.too high a Pressel. They will be happy with opinion polls showing
:13:47. > :13:48.51-52 I'll be back at the
:13:49. > :13:55.same time next week.