:00:00. > :00:09.Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided
:00:10. > :00:13.who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.
:00:14. > :00:48.So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?
:00:49. > :00:52.Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:53. > :00:54.I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn
:00:55. > :01:00.elected as leader of the Labour Party.
:01:01. > :01:06.Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".
:01:07. > :01:09.But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?
:01:10. > :01:13.We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak
:01:14. > :01:15.to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.
:01:16. > :01:16.Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.
:01:17. > :01:22.His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah
:01:23. > :01:24.but he will never become the leader -
:01:25. > :01:33.He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -
:01:34. > :01:39.we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.
:01:40. > :01:42.David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May
:01:43. > :01:45.because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the
:01:46. > :01:50.Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?
:01:51. > :01:52.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland -
:01:53. > :01:57.I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she REALLY thinks of Jeremy Corbyn?
:01:58. > :02:05.And, all parties agree it's unfair - but what will replace Council Tax?
:02:06. > :02:12.And we tried to oust them from the programme -
:02:13. > :02:17.but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best
:02:18. > :02:20.and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,
:02:21. > :02:22.Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting
:02:23. > :02:29.David Cameron became intensely frustrated
:02:30. > :02:35.at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions
:02:36. > :02:40.That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.
:02:41. > :02:44.The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:
:02:45. > :02:49.The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail
:02:50. > :02:52.The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy
:02:53. > :02:59.Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach
:03:00. > :03:03.At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's
:03:04. > :03:06.Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's
:03:07. > :03:13.He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after
:03:14. > :03:20.saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".
:03:21. > :03:22.And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over
:03:23. > :03:25.backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read
:03:26. > :03:35.There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we
:03:36. > :03:40.know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us
:03:41. > :03:45.is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the
:03:46. > :03:48.only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a
:03:49. > :03:54.submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during
:03:55. > :03:59.the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why
:04:00. > :04:02.does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,
:04:03. > :04:06.they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing
:04:07. > :04:10.fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver
:04:11. > :04:14.says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of
:04:15. > :04:19.Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind
:04:20. > :04:23.Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did
:04:24. > :04:28.she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a
:04:29. > :04:32.reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.
:04:33. > :04:37.What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was
:04:38. > :04:41.she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is
:04:42. > :04:45.unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things
:04:46. > :04:49.we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to
:04:50. > :04:56.which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet
:04:57. > :05:00.seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we
:05:01. > :05:06.see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be
:05:07. > :05:12.exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the
:05:13. > :05:19.fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I
:05:20. > :05:23.missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a
:05:24. > :05:27.minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he
:05:28. > :05:30.would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and
:05:31. > :05:35.politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking
:05:36. > :05:38.them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the
:05:39. > :05:44.country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis
:05:45. > :05:51.of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics
:05:52. > :05:54.before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played
:05:55. > :05:59.the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the
:06:00. > :06:05.Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them
:06:06. > :06:08.and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective
:06:09. > :06:12.during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the
:06:13. > :06:17.leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that
:06:18. > :06:20.effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official
:06:21. > :06:24.at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me
:06:25. > :06:28.earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had
:06:29. > :06:33.declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great
:06:34. > :06:38.admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.
:06:39. > :06:42.So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made
:06:43. > :06:49.Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing
:06:50. > :06:53.contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership
:06:54. > :06:57.ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the
:06:58. > :07:01.Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and
:07:02. > :07:05.the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they
:07:06. > :07:08.wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of
:07:09. > :07:13.the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more
:07:14. > :07:17.about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile
:07:18. > :07:19.for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't
:07:20. > :07:28.want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They
:07:29. > :07:35.calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa
:07:36. > :07:38.May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than
:07:39. > :07:42.Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed
:07:43. > :07:47.her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for
:07:48. > :07:52.20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more
:07:53. > :07:57.about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there
:07:58. > :08:01.too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as
:08:02. > :08:05.an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we
:08:06. > :08:10.need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing
:08:11. > :08:13.Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who
:08:14. > :08:20.likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is
:08:21. > :08:24.tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we
:08:25. > :08:28.want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the
:08:29. > :08:31.result everyone expected. After almost three months
:08:32. > :08:34.of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -
:08:35. > :08:37.so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -
:08:38. > :08:40.or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching
:08:41. > :08:43.events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour
:08:44. > :08:46.family facing the future. He was the head of the family last
:08:47. > :08:49.week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:50. > :08:56.and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:57. > :08:59.and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest
:09:00. > :09:02.and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just
:09:03. > :09:13.over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's
:09:14. > :09:15.plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members
:09:16. > :09:19.all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive
:09:20. > :09:22.education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school
:09:23. > :09:37.segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging
:09:38. > :09:40.agenda for our country. But the big message
:09:41. > :09:45.to his party was this. We have much more in common
:09:46. > :09:47.than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe
:09:48. > :09:59.that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do
:10:00. > :10:02.as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go
:10:03. > :10:05.and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy
:10:06. > :10:07.Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory
:10:08. > :10:13.parties, but the most important thing now is just
:10:14. > :10:15.bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing
:10:16. > :10:18.is going around all the different individual party receptions,
:10:19. > :10:22.the different regions and giving the same unity message,
:10:23. > :10:24.and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,
:10:25. > :10:28.with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found
:10:29. > :10:31.a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited
:10:32. > :10:33.in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going
:10:34. > :10:35.to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?
:10:36. > :10:37.Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me
:10:38. > :10:47.so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?
:10:48. > :10:50.Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out
:10:51. > :10:54.their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound
:10:55. > :10:55.entirely convinced. It was fine.
:10:56. > :10:58.What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm
:10:59. > :11:01.the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that
:11:02. > :11:05.Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates
:11:06. > :11:07.within the PLP. I think that's
:11:08. > :11:09.the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then
:11:10. > :11:15.change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,
:11:16. > :11:22.posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,
:11:23. > :11:31.he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those
:11:32. > :11:36.issues as well. This is a position,
:11:37. > :11:49.as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in
:11:50. > :11:51.position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister
:11:52. > :11:55.of this country unless you appeal to the great population,
:11:56. > :11:58.and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no
:11:59. > :12:00.leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,
:12:01. > :12:02.they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics
:12:03. > :12:06.are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially
:12:07. > :12:08.plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter
:12:09. > :12:16.here at the festival running alongside conference,
:12:17. > :12:18.organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon
:12:19. > :12:26.that they have managed to get their hero elected,
:12:27. > :12:30.not just once but twice. And we're joined now
:12:31. > :12:41.by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.
:12:42. > :12:46.Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of
:12:47. > :12:51.2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,
:12:52. > :12:53.or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?
:12:54. > :12:58.You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.
:12:59. > :13:03.As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated
:13:04. > :13:07.plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because
:13:08. > :13:14.I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I
:13:15. > :13:18.was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find
:13:19. > :13:22.ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the
:13:23. > :13:25.capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a
:13:26. > :13:30.concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A
:13:31. > :13:33.number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was
:13:34. > :13:38.clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At
:13:39. > :13:43.the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said
:13:44. > :13:47.he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did
:13:48. > :13:52.there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger
:13:53. > :13:55.than ever. What we have done this is have a
:13:56. > :13:58.really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was
:13:59. > :14:05.important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out
:14:06. > :14:10.and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got
:14:11. > :14:15.to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the
:14:16. > :14:18.last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to
:14:19. > :14:23.understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective
:14:24. > :14:27.opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to
:14:28. > :14:33.get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but
:14:34. > :14:36.only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him
:14:37. > :14:42.the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this
:14:43. > :14:47.process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the
:14:48. > :14:51.2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who
:14:52. > :14:56.knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when
:14:57. > :15:00.it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would
:15:01. > :15:04.have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and
:15:05. > :15:08.it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your
:15:09. > :15:11.party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can
:15:12. > :15:14.unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the
:15:15. > :15:20.country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest
:15:21. > :15:25.of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to
:15:26. > :15:29.continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of
:15:30. > :15:34.the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General
:15:35. > :15:39.Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We
:15:40. > :15:43.need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but
:15:44. > :15:47.it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next
:15:48. > :15:50.General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and
:15:51. > :15:54.capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,
:15:55. > :15:57.everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are
:15:58. > :16:01.competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer
:16:02. > :16:06.that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have
:16:07. > :16:09.doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been
:16:10. > :16:13.honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over
:16:14. > :16:16.the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the
:16:17. > :16:21.concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be
:16:22. > :16:26.congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear
:16:27. > :16:30.victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that
:16:31. > :16:34.they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my
:16:35. > :16:39.mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party
:16:40. > :16:43.forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit
:16:44. > :16:48.unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the
:16:49. > :16:53.Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.
:16:54. > :16:58.Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about
:16:59. > :17:05.wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The
:17:06. > :17:12.time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his
:17:13. > :17:14.willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet
:17:15. > :17:23.should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --
:17:24. > :17:29.majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the
:17:30. > :17:34.cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been
:17:35. > :17:38.playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours
:17:39. > :17:42.following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the
:17:43. > :17:47.last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing
:17:48. > :17:52.that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His
:17:53. > :17:55.support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the
:17:56. > :18:01.membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who
:18:02. > :18:05.gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So
:18:06. > :18:08.why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that
:18:09. > :18:13.part of the Labour Party which likes him least?
:18:14. > :18:20.I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party
:18:21. > :18:25.incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order
:18:26. > :18:28.to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic
:18:29. > :18:34.duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't
:18:35. > :18:37.have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of
:18:38. > :18:41.travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful
:18:42. > :18:49.results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability
:18:50. > :18:54.to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.
:18:55. > :19:04.If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --
:19:05. > :19:08.he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and
:19:09. > :19:13.humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he
:19:14. > :19:17.could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he
:19:18. > :19:22.sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many
:19:23. > :19:26.would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be
:19:27. > :19:30.good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that
:19:31. > :19:36.route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow
:19:37. > :19:40.Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit
:19:41. > :19:44.in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't
:19:45. > :19:51.changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you
:19:52. > :19:58.just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two
:19:59. > :20:02.leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even
:20:03. > :20:08.bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the
:20:09. > :20:12.country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in
:20:13. > :20:15.the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my
:20:16. > :20:19.experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I
:20:20. > :20:23.think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary
:20:24. > :20:29.Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.
:20:30. > :20:34.I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the
:20:35. > :20:37.backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the
:20:38. > :20:41.front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,
:20:42. > :20:45.Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have
:20:46. > :20:51.you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would
:20:52. > :20:56.you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow
:20:57. > :20:59.Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take
:21:00. > :21:05.their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to
:21:06. > :21:08.their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of
:21:09. > :21:12.the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for
:21:13. > :21:18.some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed
:21:19. > :21:23.Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general
:21:24. > :21:27.fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to
:21:28. > :21:33.be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did
:21:34. > :21:38.Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?
:21:39. > :21:40.I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond
:21:41. > :21:45.the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy
:21:46. > :21:49.Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment
:21:50. > :21:52.programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy
:21:53. > :22:03.Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen
:22:04. > :22:09.Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy
:22:10. > :22:14.Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'
:22:15. > :22:21.John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left
:22:22. > :22:26.and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as
:22:27. > :22:29.left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have
:22:30. > :22:35.any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,
:22:36. > :22:38.actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and
:22:39. > :22:44.our belief that the British people should have a say on the final
:22:45. > :22:48.Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general
:22:49. > :22:54.election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as
:22:55. > :23:00.well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the
:23:01. > :23:06.difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has
:23:07. > :23:09.changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear
:23:10. > :23:13.difference between the new members who have come in and those who were
:23:14. > :23:18.party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would
:23:19. > :23:25.be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who
:23:26. > :23:29.more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we
:23:30. > :23:32.want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the
:23:33. > :23:38.Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about
:23:39. > :23:43.that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)
:23:44. > :23:49.Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,
:23:50. > :23:52.new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I
:23:53. > :23:57.would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what
:23:58. > :24:01.I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be
:24:02. > :24:05.honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a
:24:06. > :24:09.hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new
:24:10. > :24:13.members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom
:24:14. > :24:17.have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should
:24:18. > :24:22.remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people
:24:23. > :24:29.joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so
:24:30. > :24:32.there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy
:24:33. > :24:41.Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I
:24:42. > :24:45.understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know
:24:46. > :24:53.there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when
:24:54. > :24:57.you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the
:24:58. > :25:04.biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a
:25:05. > :25:08.team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she
:25:09. > :25:14.will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet
:25:15. > :25:15.elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi
:25:16. > :25:21.Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this
:25:22. > :25:23.leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade
:25:24. > :25:26.Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use
:25:27. > :25:29.the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee
:25:30. > :25:37.is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win
:25:38. > :25:40.control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn
:25:41. > :25:47.first became leader, there has been a fine balance
:25:48. > :25:50.on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,
:25:51. > :25:59.the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up
:26:00. > :26:01.to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members
:26:02. > :26:05.representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,
:26:06. > :26:11.the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,
:26:12. > :26:14.with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these
:26:15. > :26:18.could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been
:26:19. > :26:26.boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,
:26:27. > :26:30.who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed
:26:31. > :26:35.a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour
:26:36. > :26:39.leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn
:26:40. > :26:41.Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move
:26:42. > :26:48.to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:49. > :26:55.a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks
:26:56. > :27:08.three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,
:27:09. > :27:15.Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,
:27:16. > :27:18.is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect
:27:19. > :27:21.people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists
:27:22. > :27:23.on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting
:27:24. > :27:26.the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more
:27:27. > :27:28.say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow
:27:29. > :27:30.Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future
:27:31. > :27:32.leadership elections, which would make it almost
:27:33. > :27:35.impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making
:27:36. > :27:37.a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared
:27:38. > :27:51.by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -
:27:52. > :27:53.a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC
:27:54. > :27:56.and takes up her seat at the end of the week -
:27:57. > :27:59.and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith
:28:00. > :28:19.in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The
:28:20. > :28:26.figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn
:28:27. > :28:35.and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is
:28:36. > :28:41.very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn
:28:42. > :28:46.supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What
:28:47. > :28:49.about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives
:28:50. > :28:53.to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would
:28:54. > :28:57.be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.
:28:58. > :29:02.In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the
:29:03. > :29:06.balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing
:29:07. > :29:12.because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh
:29:13. > :29:16.representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,
:29:17. > :29:22.it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think
:29:23. > :29:25.of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm
:29:26. > :29:29.really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's
:29:30. > :29:37.incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.
:29:38. > :29:40.So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,
:29:41. > :29:44.they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?
:29:45. > :29:48.Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving
:29:49. > :29:52.towards having better representation, it's actually taking
:29:53. > :29:58.an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,
:29:59. > :30:03.the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that
:30:04. > :30:08.would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote
:30:09. > :30:12.from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that
:30:13. > :30:16.through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is
:30:17. > :30:22.it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I
:30:23. > :30:26.understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the
:30:27. > :30:28.conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting
:30:29. > :30:34.things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on
:30:35. > :30:37.conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the
:30:38. > :30:47.side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.
:30:48. > :30:50.Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that
:30:51. > :30:55.could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections
:30:56. > :31:03.for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I
:31:04. > :31:08.don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you
:31:09. > :31:16.can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is
:31:17. > :31:23.this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't
:31:24. > :31:26.serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would
:31:27. > :31:32.you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to
:31:33. > :31:35.listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it
:31:36. > :31:39.entirely elected by members. All elected?
:31:40. > :31:49.But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one
:31:50. > :31:58.third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP
:31:59. > :32:03.could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn
:32:04. > :32:08.agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about
:32:09. > :32:11.party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional
:32:12. > :32:14.unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories
:32:15. > :32:20.to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you
:32:21. > :32:22.need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not
:32:23. > :32:26.come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A
:32:27. > :32:32.few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some
:32:33. > :32:37.kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is
:32:38. > :32:41.political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.
:32:42. > :32:49.If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words
:32:50. > :32:53.of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and
:32:54. > :32:57.should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like
:32:58. > :33:02.that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a
:33:03. > :33:05.decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,
:33:06. > :33:09.and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory
:33:10. > :33:13.deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the
:33:14. > :33:16.PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other
:33:17. > :33:20.ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other
:33:21. > :33:23.ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the
:33:24. > :33:27.Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership
:33:28. > :33:31.of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between
:33:32. > :33:35.the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of
:33:36. > :33:39.people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some
:33:40. > :33:45.of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other
:33:46. > :33:49.way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could
:33:50. > :33:52.change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a
:33:53. > :33:58.membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already
:33:59. > :34:02.vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off
:34:03. > :34:06.people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour
:34:07. > :34:12.heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was
:34:13. > :34:16.an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in
:34:17. > :34:19.the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could
:34:20. > :34:26.reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come
:34:27. > :34:31.back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to
:34:32. > :34:35.recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.
:34:36. > :34:41.It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!
:34:42. > :34:50.It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:51. > :34:53.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:34:54. > :34:56.I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she really thinks
:34:57. > :35:03.And, all parties agree it's unfair
:35:04. > :35:15.but what's going to replace Council Tax?
:35:16. > :35:18.Kezia Dugdale let it be known, long before yesterday's result,
:35:19. > :35:20.that she didn't think Jeremy Corbyn stood much chance of winning
:35:21. > :35:23.In an interview with Victoria Derbyshire yesterday,
:35:24. > :35:29.Then later that same day, when BBC Scotland's Nick Eardly
:35:30. > :35:33.Well, I'll be speaking to the leader of Scottish Labour shortly,
:35:34. > :35:36.First though, joining me now from the Labour Conference
:35:37. > :35:45.in Liverpool, is our Westminster Correspondent David Porter.
:35:46. > :35:57.David, is this settled? What is the mood like there? In one sense, yes,
:35:58. > :36:01.it settle things but in another sense, it settles nothing at all.
:36:02. > :36:05.Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected as Labour leader with a slightly
:36:06. > :36:10.increased share of the vote, from 59% last year to almost 62% this
:36:11. > :36:14.year. But what it does not settle is the fact that as far as he is
:36:15. > :36:21.concerned, with most of his MPs, he is in effect in a loveless marriage.
:36:22. > :36:24.They did not like him before the vote and they do not like him now.
:36:25. > :36:28.They do not think he is the right person to leave the party. The
:36:29. > :36:34.leadership question has been settled that does change anything. We will
:36:35. > :36:39.probably, as far as Jeremy Corbyn in the vast majority of his MPs are
:36:40. > :36:43.concerned, we're going to be in for a period of trench warfare. Jeremy
:36:44. > :36:50.Corbyn has said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He wants to talk to
:36:51. > :36:53.MPs. Many MPs say they would only in effect look at him differently if he
:36:54. > :36:58.was to meet them halfway and perhaps grant elections to be shadow cat in
:36:59. > :37:05.it, so that members of the PLP would have some say in who was in Jeremy
:37:06. > :37:08.Corbyn's top team. It would be for leaders to decide how he dished out
:37:09. > :37:13.those portfolios. But the feeling here in Liverpool is that yes, there
:37:14. > :37:17.has been some clarity, but not nearly enough clarity that many in
:37:18. > :37:21.the party few they need to move forward. Is there any sense of
:37:22. > :37:26.humility among the people on the Owen Smith signed, which includes
:37:27. > :37:30.most MPs, who, after all, have lost heavily and have lost even more
:37:31. > :37:35.heavily than they lost last year, is there any sense among them off,
:37:36. > :37:40.well, let's give Jeremy Corbyn a chance to see what he can do? I
:37:41. > :37:45.think there is a sense of feeling that we are where we are and many
:37:46. > :37:48.MPs are now saying Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected, as you say, with an
:37:49. > :37:52.increased majority, Owen Smith and been re-elected, as you say, with an
:37:53. > :37:59.his supporters thought they could do better, they were comprehensively
:38:00. > :38:02.beaten and Owen Smith and his supporters will have to make the
:38:03. > :38:04.most of it and make the best of it as they see fit. You do get the
:38:05. > :38:09.impression there are perhaps two conferences here in Liverpool. One,
:38:10. > :38:12.starting in the conference behind me, with motions and resolutions,
:38:13. > :38:18.which will be debated on the conference for. And then a second,
:38:19. > :38:23.separate conference, on the fringe. Meetings taking place with people
:38:24. > :38:28.putting ideas forward as to how they can get Labour into a better
:38:29. > :38:32.position. Jeremy Corbyn has a big personal mandate from the vast
:38:33. > :38:35.majority of Labour membership, but you look at opinion polls and there
:38:36. > :38:43.is no sign that he is cutting through. It has been an interesting
:38:44. > :38:45.48 hours in Liverpool. My colleague has been looking at what has been
:38:46. > :38:56.going on here in Liverpool. Jeremy Corbyn is elected leader of
:38:57. > :39:00.the Labour Party. Years back. This time, with a bigger mandate. Despite
:39:01. > :39:04.claims he did not lead Labour to power, there was not much doubt in
:39:05. > :39:07.Liverpool yesterday that Jeremy Corbyn would beat Alan Smith. A
:39:08. > :39:12.thumbs up from him from 60% of those who voted. The light for his
:39:13. > :39:20.supporters, the light applause from those who backed his opponent. Many
:39:21. > :39:23.may have seen this as a foregone conclusion but how the Labour Party
:39:24. > :39:27.reunites is less clear. Starting with other leaders across the UK.
:39:28. > :39:31.Kezia Dugdale, who said last month, Jeremy Corbyn could not win a
:39:32. > :39:35.general election. She backed his challenger. The only person that can
:39:36. > :39:45.unite the UK Labour Party in my view is Alan Smith. Six weeks can be a
:39:46. > :39:54.long time in politics. -- the only person in my view is Owen Smith. I
:39:55. > :39:59.believe a united Labour Party can win a general election. Led by
:40:00. > :40:08.Jeremy Corbyn? Course. We will unite to do that. Mr Corbyn's supporters
:40:09. > :40:11.are confident he can win. We will move on for the benefit of the party
:40:12. > :40:16.and the people we represent. That is key. We have to get back on the
:40:17. > :40:19.and the people we represent. That is front foot and get organised and
:40:20. > :40:24.take on the Tories at Westminster. And the SNP and the Tories in
:40:25. > :40:31.Scotland. Can Jeremy Corbyn win the next election? Yes. In Scotland?
:40:32. > :40:35.Yes. Not everyone here is back to being best friends. The main issues
:40:36. > :40:39.and personalities have caused such a device of summer and are still
:40:40. > :40:44.there. How does the party move on? One suggestion is that there is key
:40:45. > :40:47.players who left the Labour front bench comeback. Some are only
:40:48. > :40:53.prepared to do that if there are elections to be. For now, Mr
:40:54. > :40:57.Gordon's supporters are not convinced. Leaving aside whether or
:40:58. > :41:01.not there should be election to the Shadow Cabinet, people who say I
:41:02. > :41:05.cannot come back unless there is an election, I don't understand that.
:41:06. > :41:11.They would say that the Dean elected they have a mandate. A mandate to do
:41:12. > :41:16.what? Demanded by Jeremy? No! We do it as a team. We do it in an
:41:17. > :41:21.atmosphere of trust. If Jeremy wants you to be in the Shadow Cabinet,
:41:22. > :41:26.frankly, you should say yes. Even as Labour tries to come together, key
:41:27. > :41:27.differences remain. Who, in the party, is prepared to kiss and make
:41:28. > :41:29.up? Kezia Dugdale now joins me from the
:41:30. > :41:46.Labour Party conference Good morning, Kezia Dugdale. Do you
:41:47. > :41:49.have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn? I am delighted and I congratulated
:41:50. > :41:53.Jeremy Corbyn yesterday on his victory. The job now for the Labour
:41:54. > :41:59.Party is to unite behind him. I believe he can unite the Labour
:42:00. > :42:02.Party. He has to want to do that and equally, my colleagues, Labour MPs
:42:03. > :42:07.spinster, need to want that too. It is easy to say those words but it is
:42:08. > :42:11.time for unity. Making it happen is what happens next. I am committed to
:42:12. > :42:23.do that because I want a Labour Government. I get up every morning
:42:24. > :42:25.fighting for that. At what the Tories are doing to our country. The
:42:26. > :42:27.chaos that Brexit has caused, attacks on the welfare system, the
:42:28. > :42:29.chaos that Brexit has caused, Social Security... All right... We
:42:30. > :42:32.have to have a United Labour Party to defeat the Labour Government.
:42:33. > :42:41.When you were asked by Victoria Derbyshire after the announcement of
:42:42. > :42:48.the results yesterday, after seeing Jeremy Corbyn's chances were slim,
:42:49. > :42:53.you then said you did stand by it because it was written down? It is
:42:54. > :42:56.clear what comments I have made. But when you listen to Jeremy Corbyn
:42:57. > :43:00.yesterday, he said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He has a mandate
:43:01. > :43:04.from the party. We saw light yesterday. He has convinced the
:43:05. > :43:08.Labour Party can lead it. Now, his job is to convince the country can
:43:09. > :43:12.lead it. I want to help him do that. I am committed to doing that. To
:43:13. > :43:17.working with Jeremy Corbyn to achieve that end. As I say to you,
:43:18. > :43:21.it is what I have wanted my whole entire life. I want to be part of
:43:22. > :43:28.helping Jeremy Corbyn do that. I want to help him unite the party.
:43:29. > :43:32.That is what we must focus on now. But an hour later, after saying
:43:33. > :43:38.that, you said that Jeremy Corbyn could lead Labour to victory in a
:43:39. > :43:41.general election. It can't be true simultaneously that there is a slim
:43:42. > :43:47.to nonexistent chance of Jeremy Corbyn winning with Labour, which
:43:48. > :43:55.you say you stick by, and of course, he can lead Labour to victory in a
:43:56. > :43:59.general election? Can you explain? I have been absolutely consistent,
:44:00. > :44:04.Gordon. Let me say it again. I believe Jeremy Corbyn can unite the
:44:05. > :44:09.Labour Party. He has to want to do it. The reality of making it happen
:44:10. > :44:12.is the job of us all to do next. He have to want to unite the party and
:44:13. > :44:17.equally, my Labour MP colleagues must want it to. That is what we're
:44:18. > :44:21.focused on. We want to unite the party and I want to play my role in
:44:22. > :44:31.doing that. I want a United Labour Party, committed to taking on and
:44:32. > :44:34.Government. For all those reasons I outlined to you, the chaos of
:44:35. > :44:42.Brexits... I'm sorry... I'm sorry, you say you being clear and
:44:43. > :44:47.consistent. In which logical universe is saying that Jeremy
:44:48. > :44:51.Corbyn's chances of winning a general election are slim to
:44:52. > :44:56.nonexistent and I stick by that comment and then saying, of course,
:44:57. > :45:00.Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election? In which logical universe
:45:01. > :45:04.are those statements clear and consistent? Let me put it this way,
:45:05. > :45:08.divided parties do not win elections. That is why Trinity is so
:45:09. > :45:15.important. The only way the leader of a Labour Party can lead us into a
:45:16. > :45:24.general election is to unite the party. -- satisfying unity is so
:45:25. > :45:31.important. I am committed to that. That is what I will focus on. I saw
:45:32. > :45:36.Jeremy Corbyn last night and this morning. And I will concentrate on
:45:37. > :45:46.unifying the party. The only person that wants to drag us to the past is
:45:47. > :45:50.you, Gordon. When you wrote your comment that Jeremy Corbyn... We
:45:51. > :45:57.have been found this so many times! You have not answered the question.
:45:58. > :46:02.Will you not wrong? I have been absolutely clear. We had an election
:46:03. > :46:08.leadership contest. That is concluded. Jeremy Corbyn has a
:46:09. > :46:13.mandate... He had a mandate before! His duty is to unite the Labour
:46:14. > :46:17.Party and I believe he can do that but he must want to do it. I will
:46:18. > :46:21.work with him to that end. Labour MPs have to do likewise. The job of
:46:22. > :46:25.unifying the party continues because only a United party can win an
:46:26. > :46:28.election. I believe the Labour Party can win a general election as a
:46:29. > :46:31.United fighting forced to take on the Tories. That is what I will
:46:32. > :46:38.spend every aspiring to do. I will work with Jeremy Corbyn to do it.
:46:39. > :46:40.You see, the problem here is that you say you want to rebuild trust
:46:41. > :46:47.with voters. And that you want politicians who are open and honest.
:46:48. > :46:52.Yet you are trying to claim that to flatly contradictory views that you
:46:53. > :46:58.have expressed within the last 24 hours on Jeremy Corbyn, are somehow
:46:59. > :47:03.not contradictory and somehow that in some weird psychological work of
:47:04. > :47:08.meeting even raised the issue? You have been flatly contradicting
:47:09. > :47:23.yourself! I do not accept that for second, Gordon.
:47:24. > :47:29.And I wanted everybody wants is even with a united and unified Labour
:47:30. > :47:32.Party. I'm going to play my role in achieving that end. By going to work
:47:33. > :47:36.Jeremy Corbyn to do that. In graduate with Labour MPs do that. I
:47:37. > :47:40.go to work with our whole movement to achieve that is up we get the
:47:41. > :47:44.Tories out of office. The target young people into work. That is how
:47:45. > :47:47.we create opportunities for young people. Those values and
:47:48. > :47:51.opportunities the drive everybody are the ones that we will put the
:47:52. > :47:54.foreign and exudates. There's a try and reconcile your contradictory
:47:55. > :47:58.statements. What you could argue is that something has changed. Gordon,
:47:59. > :48:03.you need some new questions. I'm sure this is boring for your voters
:48:04. > :48:12.of Europe viewers. What is James? Only a few weeks ago there is no
:48:13. > :48:15.leadership contest. He won the contest yesterday. He has a mandate
:48:16. > :48:19.from the leadership. He needs to convince the country that he can
:48:20. > :48:23.win. I want to help them do that was only United Labour Party can do
:48:24. > :48:26.that. That is why it is so important. The duty is on everybody.
:48:27. > :48:32.That is what we're going to focus on. Do you think it was wise for you
:48:33. > :48:35.with the benefit of hindsight to take such a strong position during
:48:36. > :48:41.the campaign saying that Corbyn could not leave Labour to victory
:48:42. > :48:44.and backing Owen Smith when you are leader of the Scottish Labour Party?
:48:45. > :48:50.Would it not have been wiser for you to stand above the fray and say it
:48:51. > :48:57.is not appropriate for me to take position one way or another. I don't
:48:58. > :49:00.accept that. I have a vote in this leadership contest. I chose to
:49:01. > :49:06.exercise it and they chose to speak out. I did so once during that
:49:07. > :49:09.leadership contest. Throughout my entire political life, I have always
:49:10. > :49:15.stood up for and said what I believe to be right. I think people expect
:49:16. > :49:20.that from people who put themselves into public positions and C delete
:49:21. > :49:27.political parties. I express my view once. That is now over and I'm
:49:28. > :49:30.utterly committed to uniting the party. Only United parties can win
:49:31. > :49:40.elections. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn camp the free of challenge
:49:41. > :49:45.until his next general election? I can't believe you are the one posing
:49:46. > :49:50.a question about another challenge to his leadership. I am saying to
:49:51. > :49:54.you the he has a mandate that should be respected. The way that we
:49:55. > :49:58.respect that mandate is by uniting as a party and getting behind. The
:49:59. > :50:03.responsibility to unite is Jeremy Corbyn and on his parliamentary
:50:04. > :50:06.colleagues. I want to win the general election. Every single
:50:07. > :50:11.person at this conference was to win that election because we see the
:50:12. > :50:15.destruction and chaos of the Tories do to work in community every day. I
:50:16. > :50:20.want them out of office. The way to achieve that is to get the Tories
:50:21. > :50:27.out of Government and win an election. The answer to my last
:50:28. > :50:32.question was no then? Gordon cost I don't know what you don't
:50:33. > :50:38.understand. I am talking about a United Labour Party. What I want
:50:39. > :50:42.more than anything is to get the Tories out. Creates amazing
:50:43. > :50:44.more than anything is to get the opportunities for young people.
:50:45. > :50:47.Labour governments transform the country and make them more equal and
:50:48. > :50:51.fair. Whether that is lifting hundreds of thousands of children
:50:52. > :50:55.out of poverty, helping pensioners. Delivering things I became in a
:50:56. > :51:00.sack. The Tories are hell-bent on destroying the Human Rights Act.
:51:01. > :51:06.Only if we are in power can arguments. I am clearly too
:51:07. > :51:14.dim-witted to understand your clarity, Kezia Dugdale. Could you
:51:15. > :51:25.providers with a sentence to help us understand? I want any Corbyn's
:51:26. > :51:30.mandate to bees respected and I want a united party. I'm committed to
:51:31. > :51:34.creating a United Labour Party. Should the members of the Shadow
:51:35. > :51:40.Cabinet who left in protest against Corbyn's leadership, and do you
:51:41. > :51:49.supported, now rejoin? That Iraq who you support it. I think there is a
:51:50. > :51:54.case for some subtle form of Shadow Cabinet elections. I think that
:51:55. > :51:59.would be a great signal that Jeremy consent of those MPs. Equally, I
:52:00. > :52:05.think they need to have a solidarity to the mandate the Jeremy Corbyn's
:52:06. > :52:08.have just received. Everybody has a responsibility to make this work. I
:52:09. > :52:13.want to make this work. I've said this countless times on this
:52:14. > :52:19.programme. Only United parties can win elections. The way to get the
:52:20. > :52:24.Tories out of office is to stand up to a more equal country and be
:52:25. > :52:26.united. You think members who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet
:52:27. > :52:35.should rejoin it even if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't concede Shadow
:52:36. > :52:41.Cabinet connections? -- elections. I think the something for people to
:52:42. > :52:44.discuss on its own merits. The focus needs to be on the Labour Party. I
:52:45. > :52:48.would like to see people who have stepped away to come back, but they
:52:49. > :52:51.have to believe that Jeremy Corbyn equally have two unite the party.
:52:52. > :53:00.They said at the beginning of this interview, it is easy to say unity,
:53:01. > :53:05.but it is hard to couldn't practice. I am committed to doing my bit of
:53:06. > :53:09.making up work. I saw him last night and I met him again this morning. I
:53:10. > :53:12.will work closely with him as I always have done to make it work. I
:53:13. > :53:16.think that is what your viewers expect. The United Labour Party
:53:17. > :53:21.committed to taking on an defeating that Tories. You think Iain Murray
:53:22. > :53:29.should rejoin the Shadow Cabinet? I think that he has said that he would
:53:30. > :53:37.be delighted to rejoin if there were elections to rejoin. Do you think
:53:38. > :53:45.you should rejoin? Is absolutely a matter for Ian Murray. Yes, but
:53:46. > :53:49.neither of the -- as leader of the Scottish Labour Party surely you
:53:50. > :53:56.have a view? Would you like to see him backing Mr Cabinet? Well, he is
:53:57. > :53:59.already back in my Shadow Cabinet. He plays an excellent role might
:54:00. > :54:04.seem highlighting the issues that affect Scots from Westminster from
:54:05. > :54:06.my Cabinet. With designs to do with the next UK Shadow Cabinet, but he
:54:07. > :54:14.my Cabinet. With designs to do with is up to him. Given your backing for
:54:15. > :54:19.elections to the Shadow Cabinet, to Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet,
:54:20. > :54:26.there aren't any elections to your own Shadow Cabinet. Presumably you
:54:27. > :54:27.will be introducing them forthwith? This is a historical? Than anything.
:54:28. > :54:33.will be introducing them forthwith? There has been a history of having
:54:34. > :54:38.elections are the Shadow Cabinet. That is what the debate is about
:54:39. > :54:41.now. Should there be a return to the? There is no such history of
:54:42. > :54:47.doing and the Scottish arm to the Mac parliament. I've not heard
:54:48. > :54:52.anybody calling for that. If you look at my Shadow Cabinet, there is
:54:53. > :54:56.a great deal of strength from all aspects of the party. Holding the
:54:57. > :55:02.SNP to account. We are doing that with considerably success. Before
:55:03. > :55:06.you do the highlighting... We are leading the charge to stop the SNP
:55:07. > :55:10.closing many hospital services that they are promising to keep open just
:55:11. > :55:16.before the election. Why you seriously arguing that you would
:55:17. > :55:21.demand that Jeremy Corbyn introduces elections for his team, but you
:55:22. > :55:25.think it is a bad thing for view? I using that you are against elections
:55:26. > :55:31.to your own team? I did not make the collection on your programme. -- I
:55:32. > :55:35.did not make that demand on your programme. I did not demand Shadow
:55:36. > :55:38.Cabinet elections. I made it very clear what the domains of those
:55:39. > :55:45.conferences. Are you against elections to your own team? It is
:55:46. > :55:51.not a proposal that anybody is asking for Ford. I've got a very
:55:52. > :55:57.strong, gender balanced Cabinet. I've got a great continuing the
:55:58. > :56:02.highlighting the difference between the richest and poorest kids in our
:56:03. > :56:05.schools. Together we are the one party in Scotland who have a very
:56:06. > :56:10.schools. Together we are the one clear pan to stop the SNP and the
:56:11. > :56:14.Tory's cuts. It is only the Labour Party who says that there should be
:56:15. > :56:20.no cuts to public services in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn Exley spoke
:56:21. > :56:25.about the manifesto committee said it was a radical and progressive
:56:26. > :56:29.manifesto in the best traditions of Labour's history. That message is
:56:30. > :56:32.one that we are going to take Labour's history. That message is
:56:33. > :56:36.through the next five years of the Parliament under my leadership.
:56:37. > :56:42.Other any circumstances where you would vote for another independence
:56:43. > :56:45.referendum? Know. I've said many times to you that the position of
:56:46. > :56:55.this artist Labour Party manifesto was to oppose a second independence
:56:56. > :56:59.referendum in our lifetime. Ian Murray said over the weekend that he
:57:00. > :57:06.is not sure about what the UK Labour's party's position is in an
:57:07. > :57:11.electoral alliance with the SNP. To quote what Ian Murray said, Jeremy
:57:12. > :57:14.seems to be all over the place on it. Is he right to be concerned? Or
:57:15. > :57:20.seems to be all over the place on are you any more clear? Jeremy
:57:21. > :57:24.Corbyn have been very clear that in order to be a Labour Government that
:57:25. > :57:30.has to be a comeback for Labour in Scotland. Jeremy is utterly
:57:31. > :57:33.committed to that. He is working so frequently with me and campaigning
:57:34. > :57:38.with me. Jeremy Corbyn understands that we need Labour MPs in Scotland
:57:39. > :57:41.to deliver that across the whole of the United Kingdom. He accept the
:57:42. > :57:44.reality about. What I would say to you wouldn't is that we have a very
:57:45. > :57:53.significant by-election result in Trowbridge where we took a --
:57:54. > :57:58.Coatbridge that took a seat of the SNP. It is very easy for people to
:57:59. > :58:04.say that we do not win in the heartlands any more. That is a big
:58:05. > :58:07.message of opposing posterity and investing in public services. That
:58:08. > :58:11.is a message that Jeremy Corbyn and I are absolutely united in working
:58:12. > :58:16.together for. You're going to see more of that in the weeks and months
:58:17. > :58:22.ahead. Why is it that Ian Murray, despite this magnificent result in
:58:23. > :58:25.Coatbridge... You have got so many questions about Ian Murray, why
:58:26. > :58:30.don't you get him on the programme? I just wonder whether you are clear
:58:31. > :58:35.that Jeremy Corbyn is not going to have any form of alliance with the
:58:36. > :58:39.SNP? I have been absolutely explicit to you that I have spoken to Jeremy
:58:40. > :58:48.Corbyn about this and that he understands the way to deliver a
:58:49. > :58:52.Corbyn about this and that he Labour Government across the UK
:58:53. > :58:58.means standing up for public services and talking about how we
:58:59. > :59:02.used the powers of our incredibly Scottish powerful Scottish
:59:03. > :59:06.Parliament. I believe it will continue to do that. Jeremy and I
:59:07. > :59:13.are very omitted to that anti-austerities message. We have
:59:14. > :59:17.the powers to say to the SNP coming you have the power to not make the
:59:18. > :59:25.cuts, why don't use? I thought Nicola Sturgeon came into power to
:59:26. > :59:30.stop these cuts. But she is just doing what the Tories are doing. She
:59:31. > :59:34.takes Tories cuts, doubles and passes them on. That is why social
:59:35. > :59:38.care, they care that our elderly get is at the state it is in. That is
:59:39. > :59:42.why the gaps between the richest and poorest kids in our schools are
:59:43. > :59:50.stubborn as it is. That is our NHS service are in disrepair. This
:59:51. > :59:56.reimagines. This truly matters. I wish we had spoken about it. I wish
:59:57. > :00:00.we had spoken about it through the summer, but you had a leadership
:00:01. > :00:02.campaign. Could you give me an example of a policy where you want
:00:03. > :00:08.to have a different policy in Scotland than the UK Labour Party?
:00:09. > :00:12.Gordon, this is fundamentally about having the ability to have a
:00:13. > :00:15.different policy position. One notably is the one we had a party
:00:16. > :00:20.conference last October around Trident. This is one part of our
:00:21. > :00:24.autonomy proposals which makes it very clear from the beginning that
:00:25. > :00:28.the policies we develop in Scotland from a party membership from a team
:00:29. > :00:33.and Scottish Government and Scottish councils. It is made in Scotland for
:00:34. > :00:36.the purpose of standing up the people in Scotland. That is going to
:00:37. > :00:40.be very clear because of these autonomy proposals. I have to say
:00:41. > :00:42.that the details of these autonomy proposals have been long-standing
:00:43. > :00:48.for the last 12 months. Either very closely with Jeremy Corbyn for them.
:00:49. > :00:52.Some of the detail, we have been waiting for five years to get it in.
:00:53. > :01:01.I'm going to be very excited to see those go to the conference.
:01:02. > :01:06.Apologies to you and to the delay we have on the line.
:01:07. > :01:08.All the Scottish parties agree the current system
:01:09. > :01:12.Where they disagree is in what to do about it.
:01:13. > :01:13.Suggestions range from total abolition and replacement,
:01:14. > :01:15.to tweaking and the re-banding of properties.
:01:16. > :01:19.Ten months after the all-party Commission on Local Tax Reform
:01:20. > :01:24.Is there any sign that it will, any time soon?
:01:25. > :01:36.Our homes. Whether we are renters or mortgage donors, they are usually
:01:37. > :01:40.our biggest financial outlay. Alongside the bricks and mortar,
:01:41. > :01:42.there is also the associated costs. Insurance coming utilities of
:01:43. > :01:49.there is also the associated costs. course, and council tax. This week,
:01:50. > :01:53.Holyrood debated the tax which provided a swollen under Government
:01:54. > :01:56.income, but could leave a big hole in our wallets. The Government has
:01:57. > :02:03.plans to make those in the top four bands pay more. This estate agent
:02:04. > :02:08.says the tax is grossly outdated, but change can be unsettling. Any
:02:09. > :02:11.change to the property market, the residential property market that is
:02:12. > :02:16.always there pot of gold. Any change brings a lot of fear. Actually, it
:02:17. > :02:21.always has an effect on the market. The market always forces. The market
:02:22. > :02:26.still has a fragility post 2007. It has not come out of it yet.
:02:27. > :02:34.On Thursday, an amendment was backed which said it undermined local
:02:35. > :02:43.accountability. When it came to the final decision, the Government won
:02:44. > :02:46.by one vote. The Government narrowly avoided defeat because although
:02:47. > :02:52.Kezia Dugdale said she cast a vote, that vote was not registered. But
:02:53. > :02:55.this is the first step down the road for the Government. MSPs must still
:02:56. > :02:59.agree to changes in the amounts paid in the four highest council tax
:03:00. > :03:04.bands. The question is, will they force the Government to change
:03:05. > :03:09.direction? The extra money garnered from those rises in band e-H, is
:03:10. > :03:15.designed to tackle the attainment gap in schools. Parties say
:03:16. > :03:20.education is a priority but said that local authorities are being cut
:03:21. > :03:24.out. COSLA says the decision to use income raised from council tax to
:03:25. > :03:29.pay for a national policy break the link between local taxation and
:03:30. > :03:34.local services. The Government says the educational attainment gap is
:03:35. > :03:37.the most important issue facing the country. We're talking about the
:03:38. > :03:41.education of our children. We could not be thinking of anything better.
:03:42. > :03:44.Another thing I am surprised about, political opponents. They complain
:03:45. > :03:47.about this hundred million pounds going straight to the education of
:03:48. > :03:50.children, I would've thought that was something the Green Party, the
:03:51. > :03:54.Lib Dems, the Labour Party would have been completely in favour of.
:03:55. > :03:59.Opposition parties by to the SNP promised for years to council tax.
:04:00. > :04:04.They have their own ideas about what should happen. The Conservative
:04:05. > :04:12.support higher charges. For some bands. Labour want properties worth
:04:13. > :04:15.?190,000 to pay a flat rate. Plus a percentage of the property value.
:04:16. > :04:19.Those were the morbid attract a higher rate. The Lib Dems are
:04:20. > :04:26.interested in the idea of a land tax. People who improve properties
:04:27. > :04:29.would not be penalised. But perhaps it is the Green Party which has
:04:30. > :04:34.stuck its neck out the furthest. In the long term, they want to replace
:04:35. > :04:37.council tax with a tax on the value of the property, reassessed and
:04:38. > :04:42.you're late, with the rate set by local councils. In the short term,
:04:43. > :04:46.they insist that property values must be updated. We need a
:04:47. > :04:50.re-evaluation of council taxes. There seems to be universal
:04:51. > :04:55.agreement we cannot go on using property values of 1991. If you bear
:04:56. > :04:59.for quarter of a century, some people will be facing higher bills.
:05:00. > :05:05.But we do not separate based on that. We phase it in over five or
:05:06. > :05:11.ten years. We allow deferrals. So, people with large bills, living in a
:05:12. > :05:17.large property, can defer that until they sell or until they die, in some
:05:18. > :05:24.cases. MSPs will soon vote on Government proposals. Politicians
:05:25. > :05:25.should be aware when thinking of local funding. It has been the
:05:26. > :05:27.undoing of some political titans. It's time to look back at the events
:05:28. > :05:30.of the past week and see what's Joing me now from Liverpool
:05:31. > :05:37.are the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire, Gemma Doyle
:05:38. > :05:52.and The Herald's Westminster First of all, I apologise in
:05:53. > :06:00.retrospect for Kezia Dugdale, there was a bad delay. I want to apologise
:06:01. > :06:04.in advance. Can you give us a sense of what you think is going on? The
:06:05. > :06:08.mantra coming out is let's unite, let's wipe the slate clean. Do you
:06:09. > :06:11.believe the MPs who fought so bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all
:06:12. > :06:17.summer are really prepared to do bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all
:06:18. > :06:20.that? In one word, no. But it does not look as if the other side are
:06:21. > :06:26.prepared to do that either. You're right, the word coming out is unity.
:06:27. > :06:28.prepared to do that either. You're I would say both sides are about as
:06:29. > :06:35.united as warring football teams. They might be in the same family
:06:36. > :06:37.that their daggers drawn. Within a couple of hours of winning, Jeremy
:06:38. > :06:42.that their daggers drawn. Within a Corbyn moved against a Scottish
:06:43. > :06:46.member on Labour's ruling body and Labour MPs on the other side of the
:06:47. > :06:51.argument are suggesting to each other that if they going to Jeremy
:06:52. > :06:55.Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet without waiting and without forcing him to
:06:56. > :06:59.agree to Shadow Cabinet elections, that then they won't get votes from
:07:00. > :07:12.their colleagues in those elections in the future. The word "Scab" is
:07:13. > :07:16.being used. Pickets being crossed. Gemma Doyle, remind us, were you
:07:17. > :07:23.supporting Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn? I was a supporter of Owen
:07:24. > :07:29.Smith. I think it looks as though he won the vote in Scotland, small
:07:30. > :07:33.consolation. He did really well in Scotland. But Jeremy Corbyn's
:07:34. > :07:38.mandate has been increased. That is presumably not such a good thing
:07:39. > :07:42.from your point of view? Indeed. But what needs to happen now is we need
:07:43. > :07:49.to see what Jeremy will do with his mandate. Elections to Shadow Cabinet
:07:50. > :07:53.is important. One criticism of Jeremy has been there is a lot of
:07:54. > :07:58.talk and not much action. If he wants to unite the party, I think
:07:59. > :08:02.that is one way he could reach out to members of the PLP and to show
:08:03. > :08:08.members across the party he really is serious. Why should he concede
:08:09. > :08:13.these elections because the only reason people of her persuasion are
:08:14. > :08:17.asking for them is because you know the Parliamentary Labour Party is
:08:18. > :08:20.hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like demanding that just after winning a
:08:21. > :08:23.hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like huge mandate, Jeremy Corbyn should
:08:24. > :08:28.agree to something which will limit his effectiveness. Why on earth
:08:29. > :08:31.should you want to do that? Because he still has a fundamental problem,
:08:32. > :08:36.which is that he does not have the support of the majority of the PLP.
:08:37. > :08:39.And they have been vocal in their criticism. That will not disappear
:08:40. > :08:46.overnight. He has to do something practical. It is not ideal. To be
:08:47. > :08:50.electing the Shadow Cabinet meeting. But he needs to do something
:08:51. > :08:54.concrete and practical to show he is serious about uniting the party.
:08:55. > :08:58.That is why he needs to do it. By kicking it into the long grass,
:08:59. > :09:02.further down the road, to have another meeting of the NEC in a few
:09:03. > :09:06.weeks or whatever that if he is talking about now, I think that is a
:09:07. > :09:10.mistake because MPs will return to Parliament and this issue will
:09:11. > :09:15.mistake because MPs will return to unresolved. I'm curious what you
:09:16. > :09:20.make of this. Gemma Doyle says, a decision must be made. But actually,
:09:21. > :09:24.what's behind this new demand is this not just a variation of what
:09:25. > :09:27.the complaints about Jeremy Corbyn where about all along? There are two
:09:28. > :09:31.completely different views on the Labour Party. One, that the Labour
:09:32. > :09:34.Party should be responsive to its members. There talk on the Jeremy
:09:35. > :09:41.Corbyn said of members electing shadow can. And the idea that MPs
:09:42. > :09:45.have some autonomy because they are responsible to their electorates.
:09:46. > :09:50.Usually, they muddle along but they have now come into absolute
:09:51. > :09:54.contradiction. They have and in doing so, what we're getting is
:09:55. > :09:58.flexing of muscles. What we will probably find out in the next couple
:09:59. > :10:05.of weeks is how strong both sides are. You're absolutely right. Jeremy
:10:06. > :10:09.Corbyn has strengthened his power but he still problems. One of the
:10:10. > :10:12.reasons he is moving on the ruling body as he is trying to strengthen
:10:13. > :10:15.his power there. Gemma is correct. He does need MPs in order to get
:10:16. > :10:21.things done in the House of Commons. They have a certain amount of power.
:10:22. > :10:26.In the middle, what is raising its head, as always, is personal
:10:27. > :10:29.ambition. Some Labour MPs are considering going back into Jeremy
:10:30. > :10:33.Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. Some of them, it has to be said, because of
:10:34. > :10:37.personal ambition. But I don't want to suggest that is the only reason.
:10:38. > :10:41.Lots of people behind the scenes are also suggesting the need to do so
:10:42. > :10:47.for the sake of the party. For the sake of the future of the party. And
:10:48. > :10:52.even just an argument among the moderates as to whether supporting
:10:53. > :10:56.Jeremy, let his side of the argument when, or prevent his side of the
:10:57. > :11:02.argument winning. And that is still an ongoing debate. Gemma Doyle,
:11:03. > :11:06.argument winning. And that is still have said you want to see elections
:11:07. > :11:08.to the shadow can. If these do not happen, and there have been
:11:09. > :11:12.indications there might be some halfway house, so there could be
:11:13. > :11:17.some compromise, I mean, can you see Labour over the next year or two
:11:18. > :11:24.realistically coming together after all the bitterness we have seen over
:11:25. > :11:31.the summer? I think the honest answer is nobody knows whether that
:11:32. > :11:37.will happen or not. There are real deep divisions now in the Labour
:11:38. > :11:41.Party about how the party should operate, what it should do in
:11:42. > :11:47.Parliament, there are people in the Labour Party now who are, sorry,
:11:48. > :11:51.losing my earpiece, who are not bothered about winning the next
:11:52. > :12:01.election. That is a fundamental problem for a party in Parliament.
:12:02. > :12:05.So, sorry... We can hear you. Go on. That's fine. I think the question
:12:06. > :12:12.was, is the party going to That's fine. I think the question
:12:13. > :12:18.over the next year. It remains to be seen as the honest answer. But as I
:12:19. > :12:21.say, Jeremy will have to offer some practical solutions as to how he
:12:22. > :12:25.will work in Parliament because at the moment, he can't really function
:12:26. > :12:29.with the front bench that he has. He has people doing more than one job.
:12:30. > :12:32.He has a Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland who is not Scottish,
:12:33. > :12:38.you know, he has ministers who are failing to put down amendments to
:12:39. > :12:42.bills, so, it is not working at the moment. He needs practical
:12:43. > :12:45.solutions. Because one of the extraordinary things, Kate, about
:12:46. > :12:50.this, is that actually there has been very little talk about policy,
:12:51. > :12:55.has there? Owen Smith's campaign, in terms of the former political
:12:56. > :12:58.positions, was much the same as terms of the former political
:12:59. > :13:11.Jeremy Corbyn's. What people must be met be used by this. -- a lot of
:13:12. > :13:17.people must be amused by this. No, I don't think that's true. I think
:13:18. > :13:20.Jeremy Corbyn has realised that before he attempted to change party
:13:21. > :13:25.policy he first had to strengthen his position within the party. And
:13:26. > :13:29.that proved incredibly difficult. He spent a year attempting to do that
:13:30. > :13:35.and ultimately failed, when 50 members of his Shadow Cabinet walked
:13:36. > :13:39.out on him. But he has hinted at the policies he wants to change. He
:13:40. > :13:46.wants to change the party position on nuclear weapons and on Trident.
:13:47. > :13:50.Sorry to interrupt but we are out of time. Again, apologies for the
:13:51. > :13:58.delays in the line. That is all from.