:00:00. > :00:07.This programme contains some flashing images.
:00:08. > :00:10.We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of
:00:11. > :00:11.the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain
:00:12. > :00:14.voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given
:00:15. > :00:51.us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.
:00:52. > :00:54.Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:55. > :00:57.Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year
:00:58. > :00:59.process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain
:01:00. > :01:02.leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.
:01:03. > :01:05.So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship
:01:06. > :01:13.A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,
:01:14. > :01:18.but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be
:01:19. > :01:32.And what do Conservative MPs want to hear from their new leader?
:01:33. > :01:34.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Here, Ruth Davidson says
:01:35. > :01:37.Brexit has to create the conditions for Scotland's industries
:01:38. > :01:47.to flourish - we'll be asking her what that means.
:01:48. > :01:51.explore the potential rise of Sidcup Man.
:01:52. > :01:58.So far no Great Repeal Act to get rid of the Sunday Politics Panel -
:01:59. > :02:05.Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:06. > :02:08.It's 100 days since we voted to leave the EU and the clamour has
:02:09. > :02:11.grown for the Government to tell us what Brexit would look like.
:02:12. > :02:16.This morning, as the Tory faithful gather in Birmingham,
:02:17. > :02:20.we still don't expect to be told what Brexit means but we do know
:02:21. > :02:22.more about the timetable and the extrication process.
:02:23. > :02:25.A Bill will go before parliament this spring to repeal the 1972
:02:26. > :02:27.European Communities Act, which legalised our membership
:02:28. > :02:37.But it won't actually come into force until we leave.
:02:38. > :02:39.Theresa May also told the Andrew Marr Show that
:02:40. > :02:42.Article 50 would be invoked by March of next year -
:02:43. > :02:49.starting the two year process of renegotiation before we leave.
:02:50. > :02:54.I have been saying we would not trigger it before the end of this
:02:55. > :02:57.year, so that we get confirmation in place. I will be saying in my speech
:02:58. > :03:01.today that we will trigger before the end of March next year. The
:03:02. > :03:05.remaining members of the EU have to decide what the process of
:03:06. > :03:09.negotiation is. I hope, and I will be saying to them, that now they
:03:10. > :03:16.know what the time is going to be, it is not an exact date, but they
:03:17. > :03:19.know it will be the first quarter of next year, that we will be able to
:03:20. > :03:22.have some preparatory work so that once the trigger comes we have a
:03:23. > :03:26.smoother process of negotiation. Theresa May, on this channel, just
:03:27. > :03:30.over an hour ago. What do you make of it? Saggy as you said, we know
:03:31. > :03:36.more about when but we don't know what Brexit is going to be. We don't
:03:37. > :03:39.know how the relationship will work out, we don't know what the Prime
:03:40. > :03:43.Minister's negotiation position will be, we haven't worked out anything
:03:44. > :03:46.about the free market access and freedom of movement. All of the
:03:47. > :03:49.substance. It is a significant announcement but we don't actually
:03:50. > :03:55.know anything really big about what our lives are going to be like in
:03:56. > :04:00.future. Is there a risk from the Prime Minister? Is there a risk
:04:01. > :04:05.putting this before Parliament to repeal the 1972 Communities Act?
:04:06. > :04:13.Undoubtedly. Anything you put before the House of Commons or the House of
:04:14. > :04:15.Lords, where there is no Tory majority, let alone a Brexit
:04:16. > :04:21.majority, risks getting amended. She runs the risk. There is also a risk
:04:22. > :04:30.of not saying this, not having the greater appeal, which is actually a
:04:31. > :04:34.great repeal act, when is being repealed, but she needed to throw
:04:35. > :04:38.the Tory right red meat, and they got it this morning. There is always
:04:39. > :04:44.the potential of a constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to dig in
:04:45. > :04:48.over this, or even digging over Article 50, demand a vote on that,
:04:49. > :04:53.lawyers are arguing whether you need it or not, it may not be plain
:04:54. > :04:58.sailing when you have a majority of 12? It definitely isn't going to be
:04:59. > :05:03.with a majority of 12. The scope for constitutional crisis is many.
:05:04. > :05:08.Clashes with the Lords, clashes with the Commons, Scotland is still there
:05:09. > :05:13.in the background allows a significant factor. It will always
:05:14. > :05:16.be there, but perhaps in a different context. I don't think this will be
:05:17. > :05:23.the trigger for a constitutional crisis. You have to admire the
:05:24. > :05:27.elegant choreography. I was told ages ago that she knew she could not
:05:28. > :05:31.keep carry on saying Brexit means Brexit, there will have to be new
:05:32. > :05:36.lines. This is beautiful. We kind of knew that Article 50 was going to be
:05:37. > :05:41.triggered early in next year. David Davis even said that. It was a fair
:05:42. > :05:47.bet it would be before Easter. They couldn't spend the next two years
:05:48. > :05:51.negotiating Brexit and refocusing the entire legislative programme to
:05:52. > :05:55.spend the next two years rejigging the mountain of legislation we are
:05:56. > :05:59.affected with. They have turned a logistical, unavoidable
:06:00. > :06:04.inevitability into a sense of momentum this weekend. Very clever
:06:05. > :06:12.presentation. There are going to be huge crises to come over this.
:06:13. > :06:17.Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it all into British law and
:06:18. > :06:21.legislation, rather than dependent on Europe, that is what the
:06:22. > :06:26.Brexiteers wanted. To that extent, she has thrown them a bit of red
:06:27. > :06:31.meat today? Yes, but we still don't know what Brexit is going to be. But
:06:32. > :06:37.a bit of red meat keeps you going for a while. Maybe get them through
:06:38. > :06:45.to lunch time. Today or tomorrow? Really just today. The tactic is to
:06:46. > :06:49.get some stuff about Brexit out, get them talking about that and then
:06:50. > :06:56.move onto agenda she wants, domestic. What do you think? Good
:06:57. > :07:01.luck with that! Are you reading my script coming up? It was on the
:07:02. > :07:05.autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is accessed about not making his
:07:06. > :07:12.premiership all about Brexit. It will be, but she is desperate. She
:07:13. > :07:16.needs to define herself away from Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did
:07:17. > :07:19.she really believe? We have heard whispers, but the next few days as a
:07:20. > :07:29.chance to do that. The fringe, Liam Fox is talking at two fringes. Two
:07:30. > :07:32.opportunities for a story. David Davis as well. These two men of
:07:33. > :07:37.great talent and potentially great ego, they will not be able to stop
:07:38. > :07:44.themselves having feelings heard. And Boris. Boris who? I have not
:07:45. > :07:47.seen him on the fringes. Fringe meetings have been quite dull at
:07:48. > :07:53.party conferences recently. Because of this issue, I think people are
:07:54. > :07:55.going to pack them out. That is where words might be said, explosive
:07:56. > :07:58.words. We live for fringe meetings! The PM hopes her announcement
:07:59. > :08:01.will deal with Brexit on day one so the conference can get on to talk
:08:02. > :08:03.about other matters. But as you can see from this not
:08:04. > :08:13.so slim tome - the conference guide- there are plenty of other issues
:08:14. > :08:18.to talk, maybe even argue about. Our Ellie caught up with two Tory
:08:19. > :08:20.MPs from different sides of the party before they set off,
:08:21. > :08:24.to see what they think lies in store # Just can't wait to
:08:25. > :08:33.get on the road again # The life I love is making
:08:34. > :08:37.music with my friends # And I can't wait to get
:08:38. > :08:42.on the road again...# Do you actually enjoy going
:08:43. > :08:44.to conference? It's not as much fun
:08:45. > :08:48.as when you're not an MP, because now people want to talk
:08:49. > :08:51.to you and everybody But do you make contacts,
:08:52. > :08:56.do you network? Do think Theresa May gets
:08:57. > :09:00.nervous about conference, I think if you are performing
:09:01. > :09:05.on a big stage, whoever you are, you ought to have a few
:09:06. > :09:07.nerves jangling around. But she's a polished performer,
:09:08. > :09:10.I'm sure she'll know Theresa May will also know she has
:09:11. > :09:15.several contentious issues she needs It is perhaps not surprising,
:09:16. > :09:19.then, that day one of We're pretty well balanced
:09:20. > :09:29.between those of us like myself, representing constituencies
:09:30. > :09:30.with really high levels of research, science
:09:31. > :09:32.and agriculture, who will be very keen, but probably pragmatically
:09:33. > :09:35.understanding that we are not going to hear everything
:09:36. > :09:37.tomorrow, and the rest of the party who are just
:09:38. > :09:41.desperate for information. If they don't think the deal
:09:42. > :09:45.is going in the right way, they will want to say
:09:46. > :09:47.something about it. I think the time frame
:09:48. > :09:49.is pretty clear. We are going to trigger Article 50
:09:50. > :09:52.at some point relatively That means we will get
:09:53. > :09:56.the negotiations done a good year The rest is going to be
:09:57. > :09:59.important meat on the bones. But, in terms of the core strategy,
:10:00. > :10:02.Theresa May goes into this So, a unified front,
:10:03. > :10:05.albeit perhaps fragile. But then there is the question
:10:06. > :10:09.of grammar schools. Depends whether we hear
:10:10. > :10:12.more about it. You know, the concept
:10:13. > :10:14.in its one-dimensional sense, you can't have a problem
:10:15. > :10:19.with that, can you? Giving parents choice,
:10:20. > :10:21.giving bright children the chance But, for me, for many of us,
:10:22. > :10:25.it has to be a package Our teachers are pretty
:10:26. > :10:27.stressed and overworked I'm not actually sure
:10:28. > :10:31.this is the right time. I would rather see emphasis
:10:32. > :10:34.being put on fairer funding. Constituencies like mine have been
:10:35. > :10:36.underfunded for decades. If you go into politics
:10:37. > :10:38.and government scared of your own shadow, unprepared to do
:10:39. > :10:40.anything bold or brave, I think there is no risk-free
:10:41. > :10:45.option. Of course, people have different
:10:46. > :10:47.views on grammar schools and it is a totemic political
:10:48. > :10:49.issue as well. But I think if you read the green
:10:50. > :10:53.paper, the Prime Minister has set out a very sensible,
:10:54. > :10:56.carefully calibrated approach, The new PM also faces big strategic
:10:57. > :11:04.decisions on expensive projects like airport expansion,
:11:05. > :11:06.an area even her Cabinet With all these big infrastructure
:11:07. > :11:12.projects, HS2, Heathrow, issues around fracking,
:11:13. > :11:15.nuclear as well, I think we have got to take the right decisions
:11:16. > :11:17.for the country, make sure Britain Each one of those is
:11:18. > :11:24.thorny in its own right. But what I think is most important
:11:25. > :11:27.is we look at it very carefully, That is where we all start to see
:11:28. > :11:32.the metal in Theresa, Whilst on the one hand,
:11:33. > :11:36.having a Prime Minister - nobody could have been more
:11:37. > :11:38.delighted than me that we managed to cut the tax credits changes -
:11:39. > :11:41.but having a Prime Minister that sticks to her guns,
:11:42. > :11:43.I'm not for U-turning, How confident are you,
:11:44. > :11:49.going to this conference, that it is all going to be sorted
:11:50. > :11:52.and you are going to be Well, people predicted an economic
:11:53. > :11:56.nosedive after the referendum. People said there would
:11:57. > :11:58.be political chaos. Actually, the economy
:11:59. > :12:00.has proved resilient. I think there is a sense of resolve
:12:01. > :12:08.on all sides of the party on all of these different issues
:12:09. > :12:11.to get behind this Prime Minister Last year, you got into a bit
:12:12. > :12:16.of trouble, being quite vocal Some suggestion you weren't
:12:17. > :12:19.a proper conservative. I think I am absolutely
:12:20. > :12:22.a proper conservative. I think my party needed reminding
:12:23. > :12:26.what conservative was. Our job is to help people who need
:12:27. > :12:28.a leg up. Her opening speech in Downing Street
:12:29. > :12:37.told me she absolutely is. Like all of these things,
:12:38. > :12:40.we will hear more about this week. # And I can't wait to get on the
:12:41. > :12:51.road again. # And we're joined now
:12:52. > :12:53.by the Transport Secretary, who was a leading Leave campaigner,
:12:54. > :13:03.Chris Grayling. Welcome back to the programme. The
:13:04. > :13:11.great repeal act, what exactly does it repeal? It repeal the 1972
:13:12. > :13:14.European Communities Act. It means the European Court of Justice no
:13:15. > :13:17.longer has sway in the United Kingdom. It means the European
:13:18. > :13:22.Commission and Parliament no longer make laws for us. As of today, in
:13:23. > :13:28.our system, European law is supreme over UK law, and it repeal that.
:13:29. > :13:30.Except what it does is it consolidates all existing European
:13:31. > :13:34.legislation into British law. It would be more accurate to call it
:13:35. > :13:38.the great Consolidation act? Is This is what I argued for during the
:13:39. > :13:42.League campaign. The remaining campaign said you could not do it,
:13:43. > :13:47.it will take years, it will be a disaster. My response then is what
:13:48. > :13:52.it is now, the best way to do it is to consolidate existing legislation,
:13:53. > :13:56.much of which we will want to keep, the environmental measures, the
:13:57. > :14:00.workers' rights measures, what we want to do is to make sure we can
:14:01. > :14:03.get certainty before the event and after the event, for workers,
:14:04. > :14:08.businesses, but what the legal position will be. Over time, we have
:14:09. > :14:12.the freedom, outside the European Union, free from the control of the
:14:13. > :14:16.European Court, to change our legal system in the way that we want. It
:14:17. > :14:23.does mean we would leave the EU with all of this EU law still part of
:14:24. > :14:27.British law. Now, what would you wish to change in the aftermath?
:14:28. > :14:30.There is a whole variety of different things we will be looking
:14:31. > :14:34.at a change. For example, if you want a practical one, it is unlikely
:14:35. > :14:37.that after we have left the European Union we will still be paying child
:14:38. > :14:40.benefits to children that have never even entered the United Kingdom.
:14:41. > :14:45.That is the kind of thing we will be free to change after we have left.
:14:46. > :14:49.What else? Much of it we will want to keep, environmental measures, not
:14:50. > :14:53.all that has been done in the European Union for 40 years has been
:14:54. > :14:57.bad for Britain. How long will it take to pick all of this after we
:14:58. > :15:02.leave? Will be down to the Government to decide... Ten years?
:15:03. > :15:09.20 years? It will take it as long as we choose. What is right and proper
:15:10. > :15:13.is that on the day after there is a degree of certainty for businesses.
:15:14. > :15:16.It would not be fair for a company to be operating under a set of
:15:17. > :15:19.rules, for there to be a cliff edge where they do not know what is going
:15:20. > :15:26.to happen the day after. Let's make it an evolution, not a revolution. A
:15:27. > :15:29.lot of the things you have to agree to enter negotiations mean it will
:15:30. > :15:33.have to remain law even after we leave? This clearly the case that if
:15:34. > :15:36.a business in this country is continuing to sell a product in the
:15:37. > :15:40.European Union, it will have to make the standards of the European Union.
:15:41. > :15:43.Those rules will apply. That is the same if we're selling to the United
:15:44. > :15:49.States, the rules of the United States would apply to a business
:15:50. > :15:54.planning to sell a product there. What happens if you lose the vote?
:15:55. > :16:00.It is inconceivable that Parliament can look at the view of the British
:16:01. > :16:02.public and ignore it. Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the
:16:03. > :16:05.referendum to take place in the first place, the people have given a
:16:06. > :16:10.mandate and I am certain Parliament will fulfil it.
:16:11. > :16:17.What would happen? You have a majority of only 12 and there was a
:16:18. > :16:23.majority for remain in the Commons and there is a large majority in the
:16:24. > :16:28.house of lords. If the parliament does not seamlessly agree for what
:16:29. > :16:34.you call the great repeal act, what would happen? Both houses are full
:16:35. > :16:42.of Democrats and they will respect the will of the people. But we could
:16:43. > :16:47.be faced with a constitutional crisis? We have taken the decision
:16:48. > :16:51.to leave and parliament voted for the referendum and it is
:16:52. > :16:55.inconceivable that Parliament would not allow that process to go
:16:56. > :17:04.forward. If the inconceivable happen, you'd have to cores and --
:17:05. > :17:11.call an election. Inconceivable is a bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices,
:17:12. > :17:22.particularly in the House of Lords, would use this as a an opportunity
:17:23. > :17:26.to thwart you. And I don't think the House of Lords will turn around and
:17:27. > :17:31.say we should not fulfil that. There may be dissenting voices but they
:17:32. > :17:36.will view it as a democratic mandate that we have to fulfil. Has your
:17:37. > :17:42.party don soundings in the Commons to make sure you can get this
:17:43. > :17:46.through? I've not been involved in that discussion but parliament will
:17:47. > :17:51.respond to the will of the people. That's the way this country works.
:17:52. > :17:58.That's what you hope. We shall see how it works. We've been told by the
:17:59. > :18:03.Prime Minister this morning that article 50 will be triggered by the
:18:04. > :18:10.end of March. That means that we are out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm
:18:11. > :18:15.that those British members of the European Parliament currently in
:18:16. > :18:20.Strasberg, there will be no more for them after this. If we have left by
:18:21. > :18:26.the end of the two-year period. It is technically possible to extend
:18:27. > :18:40.it. After that period, there wouldn't be EP is after that point
:18:41. > :18:49.in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean Brexit, the famous phrase, which is
:18:50. > :18:55.basically tautology. It would mean the freedom to have our own trade
:18:56. > :19:03.laws. It would mean the ability to do that? You are leading me to
:19:04. > :19:12.answer questions about the specific legal structures. It means our own
:19:13. > :19:18.free-trade deals? Correct. It would mean we are no longer subject to the
:19:19. > :19:30.rules of the European Court of Justice. Also correct. And we would
:19:31. > :19:34.have whatever control we desire over immigration? The Prime Minister has
:19:35. > :19:39.been clear that we need to control the flow of immigration into the
:19:40. > :19:43.country. Any of these counts as out from being a member of the single
:19:44. > :19:50.market. So can we agree that there is no way we can remain a member of
:19:51. > :19:54.the single market? There is no such thing as a member of the single
:19:55. > :20:00.market. There are a number of different trading agreements within
:20:01. > :20:03.the EU. We are effectively a member of the single market now but we
:20:04. > :20:10.can't be after this. The question you have asked me, do we want to be
:20:11. > :20:15.Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it comes to trading arrangements? We
:20:16. > :20:20.want to be the United Kingdom. We are the biggest customer of German
:20:21. > :20:28.car-makers, French farmers... I don't want to have the referendum
:20:29. > :20:33.fight again. It seems as black as black or as White is white that if
:20:34. > :20:38.you want all of that we cannot be a member, we can have access on terms
:20:39. > :20:43.yet to be agreed, we will have a relationship, but why cannot you say
:20:44. > :20:47.that we won't be a member in the way that we are currently a member of
:20:48. > :20:53.the single market? We won't be a member of the European Union but
:20:54. > :20:58.there is no such thing as a member of the single market. There is no
:20:59. > :21:04.single market in services, for example. There is but it is not as
:21:05. > :21:07.developed as goods. I believe we will end up with a trading
:21:08. > :21:12.partnership with the European Union on terms to be agreed that will work
:21:13. > :21:18.for both of us. Access but not membership. You cannot be a fully
:21:19. > :21:22.paid-up member of the single market without the European Court of
:21:23. > :21:32.Justice ruling on it and you don't want that. I don't understand your
:21:33. > :21:36.problem. Your pre-merging -- prejudging the outcome of
:21:37. > :21:39.negotiations. We want the best possible trading arrangements with
:21:40. > :21:44.European neighbours and that is what we will work towards. Where
:21:45. > :21:47.different to the other countries that have been involved in these
:21:48. > :21:51.negotiations before. We have heard all that before in the referendum
:21:52. > :21:58.and we wanted some clarity on what it would mean. Transport, when will
:21:59. > :22:02.you give is the decision on runway expansion? I'm not going to set a
:22:03. > :22:06.date today. I've spent the summer looking at the three different
:22:07. > :22:09.options. We have three very well presented packages. The airport
:22:10. > :22:14.commission has looked at it carefully and the Prime Minister and
:22:15. > :22:17.I want to understand the options in detail and understand the strengths
:22:18. > :22:23.and weaknesses of each and we will reach our decision shortly. I'm not
:22:24. > :22:31.going to set a date on it. Shortly means in this year, surely. I don't
:22:32. > :22:36.want to wait unnecessarily long to take the decision but nor do I want
:22:37. > :22:43.to set a date so to to work towards that. Will there be a free vote? I
:22:44. > :22:47.need to identify the best option for Britain and take the best possible
:22:48. > :22:54.approach to get the support of parliament Porritt. Will there be a
:22:55. > :23:01.free vote? Decisions have not been taken but we will do the best for
:23:02. > :23:07.the interests of the country. Theresa May has said the options for
:23:08. > :23:16.an expansion to Heathrow are seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has
:23:17. > :23:19.described the Heathrow option as dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you
:23:20. > :23:24.be sure that the Prime Minister and Anna Chancellor will vote for your
:23:25. > :23:35.proposal? We are looking at three options that are very new. One of
:23:36. > :23:39.them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they are very different options to what
:23:40. > :23:44.has been proposed in the past. They are all very well crafted proposals.
:23:45. > :23:54.They are interesting and have potential and we need to decide.
:23:55. > :23:59.That is why I am asking you. HS2, high-speed train, can you state
:24:00. > :24:03.categorically it will go ahead? It's due to start construction in the
:24:04. > :24:12.spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to continue its passage through the
:24:13. > :24:25.house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas to continue through its passage in
:24:26. > :24:31.the house of lords. Will it be 2026? Will it be on-time and on budget?
:24:32. > :24:36.The select committee of MPs said it is unlikely and will certainly be
:24:37. > :24:48.over budget. I expected be absolutely clear and on -- expected
:24:49. > :24:54.to be absolutely on-time and on budget. The latest estimate for
:24:55. > :25:01.phase one, the core cast is ?14 billion but there is contingency on
:25:02. > :25:09.top of that. How much? It is set to Treasury rules. It is always going
:25:10. > :25:13.to be over. If you really believed in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't
:25:14. > :25:21.this money be better spent instead of making it quicker to come to and
:25:22. > :25:26.Birmingham from London in under 90 minutes, which you already can,
:25:27. > :25:38.wouldn't it be better to spend the money on state of the art road links
:25:39. > :25:46.between East and West in the north. I think we need to do both. We can't
:25:47. > :25:54.get more freight onto rail without creating more space. By taking fast
:25:55. > :25:59.trains off the West Coast main line which is already busy and put fast
:26:00. > :26:04.freight trains onto the new route, you create more capacity for places
:26:05. > :26:09.like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton, Coventry. It is about making sure we
:26:10. > :26:12.have a transport system that can cope with the demands of the
:26:13. > :26:15.21st-century. Thank you very much. Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary
:26:16. > :26:19.are going to the polls to vote on whether to accept mandatory EU
:26:20. > :26:21.quotas for relocating migrants. The country's government has been
:26:22. > :26:24.campaigning for voters to reject the EU's proposals and has run
:26:25. > :26:26.a highly controversial campaign, accusing migrants of terrorism
:26:27. > :26:28.and crime - and the Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said today he'll
:26:29. > :26:31.quit if the country votes In response to the ongoing migrant
:26:32. > :26:36.crisis, the EU wants to establish a permanent European resettlement
:26:37. > :26:38.programme, under which, member states must take their fair
:26:39. > :26:40.share of asylum seekers, depending on the size of each
:26:41. > :26:44.country's population and economy. If countries refuse,
:26:45. > :26:46.the European Commission has proposed that they would incur a financial
:26:47. > :26:51.penalty of 250,000 euros per person, to cover the cost of another
:26:52. > :26:56.country taking them. Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter
:26:57. > :26:58.Szijjarto said the plan Last year, Hungary rejected
:26:59. > :27:03.an emergency EU plan that would have seen tens of thousands of refugees
:27:04. > :27:07.transferred out of the country in return for accepting a quota
:27:08. > :27:10.of almost 1300 refugees As an EU border country,
:27:11. > :27:16.Hungary has received 18,500 In 2015, it received the most asylum
:27:17. > :27:23.applications relative to its population of any EU state -
:27:24. > :27:28.1800 for every 100,000 local people, though the majority of those then
:27:29. > :27:31.travelled onwards to other Although the referendum
:27:32. > :27:38.result will have no affect on the EU's decision,
:27:39. > :27:40.the Hungarian government hopes the weight of public opinion
:27:41. > :27:43.will help it resist the plans, running a very controversial
:27:44. > :27:46.referendum campaign. For example, this poster saying
:27:47. > :27:48.migrants carried out We're joined now from Budapest
:27:49. > :28:02.by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe. I understand that the polls are
:28:03. > :28:07.pretty clear that the government will win this referendum but it
:28:08. > :28:16.needs a turnout of at least 50% for it to matter. What indication of
:28:17. > :28:24.turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout was just over 16% of the electorate.
:28:25. > :28:30.We have an electrode of 8.3 million, the government is campaigning
:28:31. > :28:34.strongly for a no vote. The government have framed the question
:28:35. > :28:46.in such a way that it is hard to vote, yes, we do want this imposed
:28:47. > :28:52.on us. The issue of turnout is important because the opposition
:28:53. > :29:00.have campaigned not to vote or to spoil votes. Even if the government
:29:01. > :29:04.wins on the numbers, if more people vote against the quotas, is it a
:29:05. > :29:11.symbolic defeat for the government if that was to happen? Some people
:29:12. > :29:18.will argue it would be a symbolic defeat if they don't get 50%. We've
:29:19. > :29:22.heard that ministers are backing off the whole issue of turnout. They are
:29:23. > :29:29.hoping for at least 3 million people to vote. Even 4 million which would
:29:30. > :29:35.be the 50%, voting no to migrant quotas. They say that all of those
:29:36. > :29:39.votes will give them a strong moral hand. In the words of the Prime
:29:40. > :29:41.Minister, it will sharpen the Hungarian sword in the battles
:29:42. > :29:46.ahead. Thank you very much. Malin Bjork is Swedish
:29:47. > :29:49.MEP and Vice Chair of the Confederal Group
:29:50. > :30:02.of the European United Left Welcome to the programme. The quota
:30:03. > :30:08.system proposed already seem to be dying if the Hungarians vote the way
:30:09. > :30:15.they are expected to today, that will kill it, will it not? I think
:30:16. > :30:20.we should have it as a point of departure whether we have seen that
:30:21. > :30:28.Hungary is a model in any of the fields that we want hungry -- Europe
:30:29. > :30:32.to be. I don't think Hungary is the model. I don't think we should give
:30:33. > :30:37.him the kind of weight that he actually claims. He wants more
:30:38. > :30:44.weight to this referendum. I don't think we should give it to him.
:30:45. > :30:50.It is not just Hungary, is it? There are meant to be 100,000 migrants
:30:51. > :30:55.covered by the quota system, fewer than 5% have been covered by it. It
:30:56. > :31:01.is just not happening, whether Hungary votes for or against? No, it
:31:02. > :31:04.is totally... But that means it is not operational, it is simply not
:31:05. > :31:08.working. There are serious criticisms to have towards
:31:09. > :31:11.implementing partners in this. But I do think when it comes to the
:31:12. > :31:16.political course, Hungary is playing a very dangerous, racist and right
:31:17. > :31:22.nationalist game. I don't think we should adapt to it. If it comes to
:31:23. > :31:26.it, we have to be prepared to be behind those that do not want to be
:31:27. > :31:30.the Europe that is taking responsibility globally. Let me
:31:31. > :31:34.clarify what you mean by that. The Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has
:31:35. > :31:40.already said that Hungary should be expelled from the European Union. Is
:31:41. > :31:46.that what you are saying as well? No, no. You know what I think? As a
:31:47. > :31:52.progressive politician on the left side, I do have a lot of criticisms
:31:53. > :31:55.to the European Union. But there are planets apart from the kind of
:31:56. > :32:01.models that Viktor Orban is trying to build, where he does not respect
:32:02. > :32:05.human rights, laws and media freedoms, and now he attacks refugee
:32:06. > :32:10.rights. Given all of that, let's accept what you say is true about
:32:11. > :32:15.that, others may dispute it, but let's accept that as true, why
:32:16. > :32:19.should Hungary remain a member of the European Union? Well, it is up
:32:20. > :32:25.to each country that has voted to stay, and voted to become members,
:32:26. > :32:29.voting to stay, I don't think Orban has any intention of leaving EU. I
:32:30. > :32:33.think he wants more influence in the EU. I think he wants more influence
:32:34. > :32:36.domestic league through the referendum and more influence in the
:32:37. > :32:40.EU. The question the rest of the countries have to ask themselves is
:32:41. > :32:43.if we are going to give it to him or adapt to his politics in any of
:32:44. > :32:47.these fields he is active in? I think we should make a stand against
:32:48. > :32:51.it. We should have political forces in other countries that have exactly
:32:52. > :32:56.the same kind of agendas, which we don't want to see strengthened.
:32:57. > :33:01.Isn't the problem that may be Hungary is on the trend, and you are
:33:02. > :33:06.not? We have seem the right, some may call it the far right even, on
:33:07. > :33:11.the march in Austria, Poland and in Hungary, even in Germany, with the
:33:12. > :33:15.recent elections in Berlin and Angela Merkel's backyard, even
:33:16. > :33:23.progressive social Democratic Sweden, your third biggest party is
:33:24. > :33:27.now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard right nativist party. Why are forces
:33:28. > :33:31.on the move, and while the forces used and four on the defensive? The
:33:32. > :33:36.more progressive forces, I think they are growing in many countries
:33:37. > :33:41.also, such as Spain, Ireland and other countries. It is not just for
:33:42. > :33:44.the left, it is for the broader political spectrum to counteract
:33:45. > :33:49.nationalist, right-wing and racist forces. We know where they lead, a
:33:50. > :33:53.dead end. It is a challenge in the European countries. Why is Europe
:33:54. > :33:55.going in this direction? In 2016, why are the forces of the rights so
:33:56. > :34:07.strong? To be honest, I have to be a little bit more humble
:34:08. > :34:11.and say are we failing people in some way? Yes, austerity policies
:34:12. > :34:16.are not working. Inequalities have grown for over 20 years in Europe.
:34:17. > :34:21.Of course it is a failure. We are capable of saving banks, but not
:34:22. > :34:24.refugees. People see this. It is political failure and I think we
:34:25. > :34:26.have to sit down and create different pacifists. What is
:34:27. > :34:30.have to sit down and create happening now is worrying. I see
:34:31. > :34:34.some of the political forces in Europe. -- create different
:34:35. > :34:43.patterns. I see parties in Europe adapting to racism nationalist
:34:44. > :34:46.voices. I think we have to be the different parties that will not
:34:47. > :34:54.adapt to nationalist stories. They paint imaginary enemies. A huge
:34:55. > :34:58.chunk of Hungary's public spending comes from the European Union, net
:34:59. > :35:02.contributors like Sweden and the United Kingdom. If Hungary votes
:35:03. > :35:09.this way, should that continue? Should we continue to bankroll it?
:35:10. > :35:12.The way Europe and the European Union, individual members develop,
:35:13. > :35:18.of course we should lead discussions about money and heel spending to the
:35:19. > :35:24.respect for rule of law, the respect for human rights and the respect for
:35:25. > :35:27.international rights that are being infringed by the Hungarian
:35:28. > :35:29.government. Of course, we have to have such a discussion and it has to
:35:30. > :35:33.be frank. It's just gone 11.35,
:35:34. > :35:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:35:36. > :35:43.in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:35:44. > :35:45.to Sunday Politics Scotland. As the Conservatives
:35:46. > :35:49.gather in Birmingham, Theresa May will announce
:35:50. > :35:51.a Great Repeal Bill to end The party's Scottish leader
:35:52. > :35:58.Ruth Davidson says Brexit must meet the needs of Scottish business,
:35:59. > :36:01.I'll be asking her what she means and how on earth she intends
:36:02. > :36:19.to get her way. We have had two seemingly momentous
:36:20. > :36:23.bits of news about Brexit this morning. Theresa May says she will
:36:24. > :36:26.trigger Article 50, the formal process that will move to not likely
:36:27. > :36:32.to Britain leaving the EU by next March.
:36:33. > :36:42.But that doesn't leave us any clearer about what great that
:36:43. > :36:52.This all sounds terribly momentous, but do we really know any more about
:36:53. > :36:59.where we're going to end up? I think we are getting more on the process
:37:00. > :37:03.of it, but on the politics, on what brand it actually means and a strict
:37:04. > :37:08.definition, we are not much closer today than we were a couple of weeks
:37:09. > :37:12.ago, than we were in June. The key announcement this morning is on the
:37:13. > :37:16.triggering of Article 50, the former all process of leaving the EU. That
:37:17. > :37:22.will happen, Theresa May says, by the end of March, is in the UK on
:37:23. > :37:27.course to leave the EU by April, 2019. That is down to a host of
:37:28. > :37:31.different factors. If all EU countries decided they wanted to
:37:32. > :37:35.extend the process, it could be for longer. It could also be shorter if
:37:36. > :37:41.there is an agreement to that end. A bit more detail on what happens
:37:42. > :37:45.after we leave, that greater appeal act, which ends the supremacy of
:37:46. > :37:51.European law in the UK. All European laws would then be converted into UK
:37:52. > :37:54.law. We will go through them line by mine, figuring out what we want to
:37:55. > :37:58.keep and what we want to get rid of. I suspect will be some questions in
:37:59. > :38:04.the coming days and weeks. Questions about what that means in a Scottish
:38:05. > :38:08.context, whether Holyrood has to be consulted, whether it has a vote on
:38:09. > :38:16.certain elements of repealing those laws, whatever happens. On the
:38:17. > :38:20.politics, no real detail yet of what the UK Government actually wants,
:38:21. > :38:23.the key things we will be taking into those talks with European
:38:24. > :38:27.partners. We did get a head from Theresa May this morning, a subtle
:38:28. > :38:34.one, that immigration and control over borders could be more important
:38:35. > :38:40.than access to the single market. That could put the UK Government on
:38:41. > :38:43.a collision course with the Scottish governments. Nicola Sturgeon has
:38:44. > :38:47.made it clear that not just access the membership of the single market
:38:48. > :38:53.is a key demand from Hollywood's in Brexit talks. The UK Government has
:38:54. > :38:59.also been clear that it won't be negotiating in public, so in terms
:39:00. > :39:04.of the ins and outs of what we will see, I don't think we are much
:39:05. > :39:07.closer. The other thing is that Theresa May has said she doesn't
:39:08. > :39:11.want this conference to be completely dominated by Brexit. I
:39:12. > :39:14.presume the other big thing will be trying to present themselves as, we
:39:15. > :39:18.are not the David Cameron governments, this is something
:39:19. > :39:24.different. Are we going to see anything on this front? I expect
:39:25. > :39:27.that his rights. Theresa May pates and tribute David Cameron when she
:39:28. > :39:31.was on Andrew Marr's programme this morning, she also wants to set out
:39:32. > :39:36.to run stall. She wants to make it clear that this government is hers,
:39:37. > :39:40.taking her messages forward. Although Brexit is the reason she is
:39:41. > :39:44.by Minister will be the dominating issue for governments, it is not the
:39:45. > :39:49.only one she wants to talk about. If you look anywhere around this whole,
:39:50. > :39:52.you see the message, a country that works for everyone. That was the
:39:53. > :39:55.message when she took over in Downing Street and something we will
:39:56. > :40:02.hear a lot more about over the next few days. Today, in some sense, is
:40:03. > :40:06.about getting the breaks apart on the table, getting some of the
:40:07. > :40:10.logistics out of the way. There will be a session this afternoon where
:40:11. > :40:16.they will all give speeches on what they think could be the positives of
:40:17. > :40:21.Brexit, but after that, I suspect by Wednesday, when we get to Theresa
:40:22. > :40:24.May's main speech, she will want to be giving more details of the
:40:25. > :40:28.nitty-gritty of governments, the issues she cares about, the things
:40:29. > :40:31.she thinks will benefit the country. Thank you very much.
:40:32. > :40:33.A short while ago I spoke to the leader of the Scottish
:40:34. > :40:36.Conservatives, Ruth Davidson, who's in Birmingham.
:40:37. > :40:42.I began by asking her how she proposed to influence the Brexit
:40:43. > :40:46.negotiations in Scotland's interest. I have already sat down with the
:40:47. > :40:50.Foreign Secretary and spoken in the last few days with David Davis, as
:40:51. > :40:51.well as regular conversations with Number ten. It's important that
:40:52. > :40:55.Scotland is my voice is heard. I'm Number ten. It's important that
:40:56. > :40:58.pleased to see the written understanding within the UK
:40:59. > :41:02.Government that they want to take the devolved administrations along
:41:03. > :41:06.with them. David Davis spoke to Nicola Sturgeon last night about the
:41:07. > :41:09.announcement today on Brexit. As the laying out of things. It's important
:41:10. > :41:15.that we do this as a whole country and in the manner. But you have said
:41:16. > :41:20.that you want to stay in the single market, is that still your ambition?
:41:21. > :41:24.I think there is a misnomer about the single market but it is a binary
:41:25. > :41:29.choice to be in or come out. It's not, it is a quotation of access. As
:41:30. > :41:33.someone that those hidden works pretty hard to campaign to stay in
:41:34. > :41:37.the EU as a whole, of course I want to have the maximum amount of access
:41:38. > :41:40.to the single market. That's one of the reasons I was campaigning on the
:41:41. > :41:44.side of a Zen. I think we heard today from the prime minister, what
:41:45. > :41:46.we have heard from others and governments, is a real
:41:47. > :41:50.acknowledgement that we have got to make certainty there are businesses
:41:51. > :41:58.across the UK, for investors in the UK, to make sure they know... Just
:41:59. > :42:03.to take one example, you talks this morning about wanting Scottish
:42:04. > :42:06.financial businesses to have passport thing in the European
:42:07. > :42:10.Union. This is a system whereby if you are back, for example, you
:42:11. > :42:15.register in one European country and you have access across the EU. I
:42:16. > :42:19.know what no suggestion that you can maintain our sporting and financial
:42:20. > :42:25.services unless you are a full member of the single market. All I
:42:26. > :42:29.was saying today in the papers is what people have been saying to me.
:42:30. > :42:32.I have had people through my office over the summer and into awesome,
:42:33. > :42:35.from different sectors in Scotland, saying the opportunities they see
:42:36. > :42:39.from Brexit, the protections they want when we come out, because see
:42:40. > :42:43.they issues that might affect them that you mentally. I making sure I
:42:44. > :42:46.am plugged in as passing all about back to the UK Government. I would
:42:47. > :42:53.expect the Scottish Government is doing the same thing and I know...
:42:54. > :42:59.What I am suggesting to you is that it will be impossible to have passed
:43:00. > :43:05.voting for financial services without being a full member of the
:43:06. > :43:10.single market. There is no sign whatsoever from any of Theresa May's
:43:11. > :43:15.ministers that they are entertaining such an idea. But again I think you
:43:16. > :43:19.are falling into the trap that the single market is a binary choice of
:43:20. > :43:24.in or out. It's not, it is about the levels of access we have. There has
:43:25. > :43:27.never been a country that has left the EU before, so all of this we are
:43:28. > :43:32.starting from scratch. There is work going on to make sure we get the
:43:33. > :43:34.best deals in the UK, including Scotland. I know the Scottish
:43:35. > :43:39.Government has been included in that as we go forward. All of these
:43:40. > :43:42.things will be on the table when it comes to the negotiations. We have
:43:43. > :43:46.heard this morning from the Prime Minister how we start moving towards
:43:47. > :43:56.that. Would you like to keep free movement of Labour? As I keep coming
:43:57. > :43:58.back to, I was quite enthusiastic in supporting the remaining campaign,
:43:59. > :44:03.which included free movement of Labour, so that was one of the
:44:04. > :44:07.things I was arguing for. Unfortunately 17.5 million people
:44:08. > :44:11.disagreed with me. There was a wish within the country, not my wish, but
:44:12. > :44:15.a wish within the wider UK, that there were some restrictions put on
:44:16. > :44:20.my of this country. For me, that wasn't something I was arguing for,
:44:21. > :44:23.in fact, I was arguing very strongly against it. That means that is going
:44:24. > :44:29.to have to happen. How can we shape that and make sure that we get the
:44:30. > :44:32.best Labour force to the UK? Irrespective of whether that comes
:44:33. > :44:41.from within the EU, outside the EU, or accommodation of the two. Before
:44:42. > :44:43.we move on, can I suggest a nice celebratory party conference
:44:44. > :44:47.sentence for you to say, given what is in the papers this morning? How
:44:48. > :44:52.about saying, I have confidence in Boris Johnson? I have always had
:44:53. > :44:58.confidence in the role of the Foreign Secretary. That's not the
:44:59. > :45:02.same as saying my sentence! I suggested you say, I have confidence
:45:03. > :45:08.in Boris Johnson. We know you love the poster Foreign Secretary. I sat
:45:09. > :45:13.down with Boris, we had a very good meeting, he is taking the role
:45:14. > :45:18.incredible is seriously. He speaks five languages and has worked in
:45:19. > :45:22.Brussels. He was born in America. In terms of cost conditions for the
:45:23. > :45:26.job, he has got them in spades. He is applying himself to the job. I
:45:27. > :45:31.think that shows a real will. He is wanting to engage with the Scottish
:45:32. > :45:35.Government, adding to engage with Scotland to make sure... Why won't
:45:36. > :45:41.you say the sentence? I have confidence in Boris Johnson! Why
:45:42. > :45:44.won't you say it? I have confidence that like I have more confidence in
:45:45. > :45:49.him now that I have sat down with him than I had before. That's
:45:50. > :45:52.ambiguous! If you want to say and what happens in the Brexit
:45:53. > :45:57.negotiations, why shouldn't there be a formal sabre Nicola Sturgeon? Her
:45:58. > :46:03.party was elected as the government of Scotland. Your party wasn't. She
:46:04. > :46:07.might have some input but she does no right to say that some of the
:46:08. > :46:12.things you want M financial passport and has to be in the deal. As I
:46:13. > :46:15.said, there is a full acknowledgement from the UK
:46:16. > :46:18.Government 's that the consultation will go one with the Scottish
:46:19. > :46:23.Government. David Davis spoke to Nicola Sturgeon last night. He has
:46:24. > :46:26.already sat down with Mike Russell, the Minister Nicola Sturgeon has put
:46:27. > :46:29.in charge of the negotiations on behalf of the Scottish Government. I
:46:30. > :46:33.think there has to be an understanding that this was a UK
:46:34. > :46:37.wide vote. The UK is the member state. Foreign affairs is reserved
:46:38. > :46:40.to the UK. Even Nicola Sturgeon acknowledged that before the
:46:41. > :46:44.campaign because she was down in England is on TV debates in England
:46:45. > :46:49.speaking to people across the UK about the boat we were all taking
:46:50. > :46:56.part in. The bottom line here is, there is a bottom line here, if
:46:57. > :47:03.Theresa May's governments ignores your views on Brexit and what you
:47:04. > :47:05.would like to see and ignores the Scottish Government's views and
:47:06. > :47:10.implements Brexit, there is absolutely nothing, for example, if
:47:11. > :47:14.they implement the hard Brexit that Liam Fox once, there is absolutely
:47:15. > :47:19.nothing either you or Nicola Sturgeon can do about it. This is
:47:20. > :47:22.just blather. The prime minister has been clear about that just this
:47:23. > :47:26.morning, that she is not talking about a soft Brexit are hard Brexit
:47:27. > :47:30.but getting the best deal. That has to be a bespoke deal because this
:47:31. > :47:33.has never happened before. I country has never left the EU. We will be
:47:34. > :47:37.making sure it negotiations start from Britain's best interests. But
:47:38. > :47:42.this isn't about my will Nicola Sturgeon's will this is about the
:47:43. > :47:46.will of 17.5 million across the United Kingdom. I wasn't one of
:47:47. > :47:51.those people but there were 1 million people in Scotland were.
:47:52. > :47:55.Politicians have a choice. This is important. They have a choice to
:47:56. > :47:59.make. Even if it went against them, as it did with me. I was a strong
:48:00. > :48:02.supporter of the remaining campaign. You either go off and a half or try
:48:03. > :48:09.to make this work and implement the will of the people. I'm working hard
:48:10. > :48:14.to sit down with people from across the sectors, across Scotland, what
:48:15. > :48:18.they need and what they want out of the European Union. By making sure I
:48:19. > :48:24.am doing my darndest to make that happen. There are clearly very
:48:25. > :48:29.different views within the cabinets. Some, like Philip Hammond, or
:48:30. > :48:38.perhaps closer to your review. People Fox are not those to your
:48:39. > :48:42.view. You think Parliament should be given the decision, maybe not on
:48:43. > :48:47.Article 50 but at some point Parliament should have the right to
:48:48. > :48:53.say, we like Visteon we accept it or we don't? I will refer you back to
:48:54. > :48:56.the prime minister's interview this morning, when she started laying out
:48:57. > :49:00.the process that is involved and how Parliament is involved in that. The
:49:01. > :49:03.first of the repeal act that she unveiled today which shows the
:49:04. > :49:08.continuity that is going to happen after the day we do that. That gives
:49:09. > :49:13.stability to businesses. There will be other stages in this, too. I
:49:14. > :49:17.won't run through all of them today and we probably don't even know all
:49:18. > :49:21.of the stages. The idea that Parliament will be bypassed is a
:49:22. > :49:25.misnomer. As matters stand, if Parliament doesn't have a right to
:49:26. > :49:29.vote on the final package, if Liam Fox kept his way and is a hard
:49:30. > :49:33.Brexit, I know it's hypothetical but let's say there is, as matters
:49:34. > :49:38.stand, there is no formal process by which members of Parliament could
:49:39. > :49:43.vote against that. I think there also has to be an understanding that
:49:44. > :49:50.members of parliament voted by 6-1 to make this decision, the decision
:49:51. > :49:53.of the individual people of the UK. 6.5 million, more than in any other
:49:54. > :49:57.democratic lives were that we have ever had... I'm not suggesting
:49:58. > :50:01.Parliament should be able to overturn the referendum, but they
:50:02. > :50:07.should have the right to veto a final deal. If you were suggesting
:50:08. > :50:11.it is a yes or no, they could leave it, there is a suggestion you are
:50:12. > :50:13.saying that Parliament would be able to override the will of the UK
:50:14. > :50:19.people. Either that or I am misunderstanding the question. What
:50:20. > :50:24.I'm suggesting is if Liam Fox, for example, gets his way and we leave
:50:25. > :50:27.the EU and operate by WTO rules, this seems to be no point at which
:50:28. > :50:32.Parliament can say, we don't want bad, we agree with Ruth Davidson, we
:50:33. > :50:34.want is to have some relationship with the single market, to have some
:50:35. > :50:48.free movement of Labour. The like. The Minister has put that
:50:49. > :50:51.to one side. This will be a bespoke agreement that includes free
:50:52. > :50:55.movement of people and access to the single market and all of these
:50:56. > :50:58.issues that we will discuss that he has already stated on the record
:50:59. > :51:01.Julia and before today that there will be a role for parliament in
:51:02. > :51:08.that process. The first one that we talked about in terms of the
:51:09. > :51:11.timescale was... Did I misunderstand you, at you just said that to reason
:51:12. > :51:17.they made it clear that whatever agreement she comes to will include
:51:18. > :51:20.a free movement of labour? What I said was that negotiations will
:51:21. > :51:24.include the free movement of labour, they will include access to the free
:51:25. > :51:29.market, she said all of this this morning. On another subject, Damian
:51:30. > :51:34.Green the Work and Pensions Secretary announced that benefits
:51:35. > :51:42.retest for the chronically ill would be scrapped. Do you welcome that? I
:51:43. > :51:45.do, these are tests that were brought in and architected by the
:51:46. > :51:49.last Labour government who hired the company who is doing them, we have
:51:50. > :51:52.seen that there are significant problems with how they are carried
:51:53. > :51:55.out and personally I am pleased that when people have either degenerative
:51:56. > :51:59.conditions that they do not have to keep going back and we are able to
:52:00. > :52:05.make sure that there is medical grounds for that. Do you think they
:52:06. > :52:12.should follow-up by scrapping the Bedroom Tax? I think that is a
:52:13. > :52:15.decision for people in the other parts of the UK, obviously we have
:52:16. > :52:20.our own settlement here. Would you like to see them scrap the Bedroom
:52:21. > :52:24.Tax? I think there is a difference in terms of the way I would have
:52:25. > :52:28.done it if I had read them I would have got it in as a kind of late
:52:29. > :52:31.entry thing so it did not affect people who were already in the hole
:52:32. > :52:36.but for people who regulated goods to social housing because of course
:52:37. > :52:38.this already existed for housing benefits in private rented
:52:39. > :52:42.accommodation is so I would have though it's differently to how it
:52:43. > :52:44.was permitted. It does not exist in Scotland, if you support devolution
:52:45. > :52:48.you have to let people in other parts of the UK make their own
:52:49. > :52:52.decisions just as we expect to be able to make our own decisions here.
:52:53. > :52:56.There are big questions that we will be talking about in my speech about
:52:57. > :52:59.social justice, because there are lots of new powers over benefits and
:53:00. > :53:01.welfare coming to the Scottish Parliament, we will be doing a lot
:53:02. > :53:07.of discussion and investigation into how we can use them to help the most
:53:08. > :53:11.vulnerable in Scottish society. In publishing a paper today that shows
:53:12. > :53:15.some of the things we can already do with the powers we do have so it is
:53:16. > :53:23.not just topping about the symptoms of poverty... I understand what
:53:24. > :53:27.you're saying. You seem to be suggesting that he would quite like
:53:28. > :53:32.them to scrap the Bedroom Tax at least as it stands. What I'm seeing
:53:33. > :53:36.is I would have brought it in in a different way but it is a decision
:53:37. > :53:40.for people in other parts of the UK. I would like to talk about the paper
:53:41. > :53:45.we wanted, it is important that as an opposition we don't just say no
:53:46. > :53:47.to the government but that we also suggest improvements and
:53:48. > :53:51.alternatives. One of the things we're looking at is how we can
:53:52. > :53:55.intervene Elliott upstream to some of the big issues that cause poverty
:53:56. > :53:58.or vulnerability in our society, like addiction and family breakdown
:53:59. > :54:04.and how we can use the power of the Scottish Parliament already has two
:54:05. > :54:07.address that. We will let you get off. I am sure Boris John was to
:54:08. > :54:10.have copy the view now is that you have more confidence in him than you
:54:11. > :54:14.had before. Than ever before, yes. It could be a problem with
:54:15. > :54:17.the software or an administrative misunderstanding but either way it's
:54:18. > :54:20.causing farmers a lot of heartache. European Common Agricultural Policy
:54:21. > :54:22.payments in Scotland are in chaos leaving some without their
:54:23. > :54:24.subsidies, others with stop-gap loans and the Scottish Government
:54:25. > :54:26.in danger of facing a serious Joining me from our Inverness studio
:54:27. > :54:33.is the SNP MSP Stewart Stevenson, who sits on the Rural
:54:34. > :54:52.Economy Committee, Stewart Stevenson, you are supposed
:54:53. > :54:55.to pay money to farmers to the common agricultural policy and you
:54:56. > :54:59.make a mess of that and to compensate you give them loans as
:55:00. > :55:03.you make a mess of that. He could not make this up. The important
:55:04. > :55:08.point is that following the difficulties that have been with the
:55:09. > :55:13.IED system which have been acknowledged, that we put in place a
:55:14. > :55:16.way in which farmers can make sure they have money in the bank to keep
:55:17. > :55:22.their businesses going, and every single farmer has had the
:55:23. > :55:27.opportunity to take a loan. I believe a tiny handful have chosen
:55:28. > :55:33.not to. The bottom line is in the circumstances of the difficulties in
:55:34. > :55:37.the system, we have made sure that we have addressed the financial
:55:38. > :55:40.needs of farmers and nature that they have money to keep their
:55:41. > :55:43.businesses going. I think that is the right approach in these
:55:44. > :55:49.difficult circumstances, which the government has absolutely
:55:50. > :55:53.acknowledged stem from the IT system that we are responsible for. They
:55:54. > :55:59.are not responsible for computer glitches? This has been a shambles
:56:00. > :56:04.from start to finish, ten months on the still 576 farmers who have not
:56:05. > :56:11.been fully paid from last year, what we have got to understand is that
:56:12. > :56:13.even with giving a loan out for 80% of what they are entitled to hand
:56:14. > :56:18.the government said they will deliver it next month, that is one
:56:19. > :56:23.of before they should get all the money, so they will only get a loan
:56:24. > :56:29.of 80% next month, we must remember that 30% of farmers have an income
:56:30. > :56:34.of less than ?10,000 per year and with 80% of the subsidy, they are
:56:35. > :56:40.not getting ?6,000. That is a heck of a lot of money not to get when
:56:41. > :56:44.you are entitled to have it and there has been one disaster after
:56:45. > :56:49.another. I am astonished that this so-called computer glitch, it is
:56:50. > :56:54.costing ?117 million so far and it has been a complete shambles from
:56:55. > :56:58.beginning to end. What we want to do is call the government minister to
:56:59. > :57:00.Parliament next week and I will race is on the business bureau on
:57:01. > :57:04.Tuesday, with support from other business managers, to have him make
:57:05. > :57:11.a statement because we cannot have the system go on. Nobody is taking
:57:12. > :57:15.responsibility. It is about responsibility, isn't it? There are
:57:16. > :57:18.not huge numbers of people involved here and it is all very well saying
:57:19. > :57:23.it is a computer glitch but isn't it the responsibility of good
:57:24. > :57:27.government not to make excuses like that and to intervene where the
:57:28. > :57:30.problems emerge and to get it sorted out? Perhaps one can understand if
:57:31. > :57:33.it was a computer glitch this was all for just not paying the CAP
:57:34. > :57:36.payments but when you can't even make the loan payment which are
:57:37. > :57:42.supposed to replace the cap payment you can make, it is not good enough
:57:43. > :57:48.just to say it is all about technology. I am most certainly not
:57:49. > :57:51.saying it is all about technology and nor am I shedding the
:57:52. > :57:56.responsibility that there is for the IT system and its failure to work.
:57:57. > :57:59.The contractors have let the government down but ultimately the
:58:00. > :58:05.government has to address that, but let's be clear, there is money in
:58:06. > :58:10.every farmer's bank account from the Scottish Government. By the job of
:58:11. > :58:15.October we are expecting the last of the applications from farmers to the
:58:16. > :58:18.end and I think it is worth looking at what the National farmers union
:58:19. > :58:25.themselves said in the middle of September on the subject, they
:58:26. > :58:29.continued to say that it is unsatisfactory from the IT system
:58:30. > :58:34.and they said that the government has taken the action necessary to
:58:35. > :58:37.make sure that the rule economy is supported by money from the
:58:38. > :58:42.government and they have welcomed that. -- the rural economy. That is
:58:43. > :58:45.the right response when you have a difficult situation with our IT
:58:46. > :58:48.system that you nonetheless make sure that money is getting to
:58:49. > :58:54.farmers bank accounts and that is what the government has done.
:58:55. > :58:59.I take your point about the incomes of farmers, but we are topping about
:59:00. > :59:03.subsidies here and if people are getting 80% of what they would
:59:04. > :59:10.otherwise get, I mean OK, it might not be ideal but it is hardly that
:59:11. > :59:14.big a deal is it? It is a huge deal especially for the third of farmers
:59:15. > :59:18.whose income is less than ?10,000, and then not getting ?6,000. How
:59:19. > :59:25.many farmers are we talking about in that situation? One third of them,
:59:26. > :59:30.30% of the 80,000 so well over 6000 farmers. The point I'm here is this
:59:31. > :59:35.subsidy system is a ridiculous system we have at the moment, the
:59:36. > :59:41.average subsidy per farmer to farm business is ?31,000 on average. The
:59:42. > :59:46.farm income on average is ?23,000, sold most farmers actually make a
:59:47. > :59:52.loss and if they did not have the subsidy they would have a negative
:59:53. > :59:56.income. It is a ridiculous system. ?3 million goes to one farmer under
:59:57. > :00:03.the scheme, it is a stupid system and the person responsible is
:00:04. > :00:07.furnished viewing. -- Fergus Ewing. What is it you want Stewart
:00:08. > :00:11.Stevenson and his colleagues to do? You're complaining but what
:00:12. > :00:14.precisely what then to do? What I want them to do is make sure that
:00:15. > :00:19.the actual systems that they have run properly, but more importantly I
:00:20. > :00:23.have said several times to Fergus Ewing and Stewart on the committee
:00:24. > :00:28.as well has heard me say this, but what we should be doing is looking
:00:29. > :00:31.to renew the system. When we leave the EU the entire responsibility for
:00:32. > :00:36.this falls on Fergus Ewing's shoulders and they said to him in
:00:37. > :00:39.four years' time you will have the responsibility to pay this money out
:00:40. > :00:43.of farmers in subsidies and the subsidy system we have now is wrong.
:00:44. > :00:47.We have one farmer getting ?3 million in subsidies well one third
:00:48. > :00:53.of farmers are not less than ?10,000 that he will not do it. I have asked
:00:54. > :00:57.them to set up a committee of specialists to look at the options
:00:58. > :01:01.for the future and he is burying his head in the sand. This is indicative
:01:02. > :01:08.of the whole process we have seen with cap payments. It will go on to
:01:09. > :01:10.the future. You're shaking your head Stewart, presumably the Scottish
:01:11. > :01:12.Government will set up given Brexit and all the rest of it, you are
:01:13. > :01:15.going to set up the kind and all the rest of it, you are
:01:16. > :01:22.committee that my grumbles is calling on? You'll have to. 100 days
:01:23. > :01:26.after the Brexit forward we have no answers from the UK, and very little
:01:27. > :01:31.can proceed until we get some but what I'm hearing from Mike rumbles
:01:32. > :01:33.is an indication that he wants to abolish the subsidy system
:01:34. > :01:42.altogether. How on earth is that going to help those farmers who are
:01:43. > :01:44.under a living wage? What he is -- that is what he's saying and that is
:01:45. > :01:48.not what this government is doing what the government also doing is
:01:49. > :01:55.addressing the requirements of the large farmers... And failing. And
:01:56. > :01:58.ensuring the most active farmers get the money. I'm sorry to cut you off
:01:59. > :02:00.but we are pressed for time. Let's go back to our top story today
:02:01. > :02:03.and we're joined by the Scottish minister for Brexit
:02:04. > :02:20.negotiations, Mike Russell, Mike Russell, what do you make of
:02:21. > :02:24.these two announcements to has made today about the repeal legislation
:02:25. > :02:31.and triggering article 50 by March next year? Neither take as much
:02:32. > :02:34.further forward, there has to be read your legislation, it is the
:02:35. > :02:37.only way you could have done this and everyone has an honour for a
:02:38. > :02:39.while. The only question was the timing of the legislation.
:02:40. > :02:44.Repeatedly the UK Government has said that the first part of next
:02:45. > :02:48.year will have article 50, the reader may knows that March is in
:02:49. > :02:51.the first part of next year so that is not take as much further forward
:02:52. > :02:57.either. Do you feel from the discussions you have been having
:02:58. > :03:00.that you are any clearer as to what Brexit will actually mean? We have
:03:01. > :03:02.had Ruth Davidson of the programme talking about how she would like to
:03:03. > :03:07.see some relationship with the single market, she supported free
:03:08. > :03:11.movement of labour and she wants to see passport in for financial
:03:12. > :03:18.services. And he had any indication that any of these things are
:03:19. > :03:23.possible? Ruiz has become a born-again Brexit fan, she has
:03:24. > :03:27.kissed and made up with the Brexit is, and I do not think we are much
:03:28. > :03:30.further forward in terms of the port and issues for the people of
:03:31. > :03:34.Scotland in the area of outstanding now. We don't all about free
:03:35. > :03:37.movement of labour or the people who are here presently will be allowed
:03:38. > :03:40.to stay. That is a vitally important and could be decided today. That
:03:41. > :03:44.announcement should have come from the Tory party conference because it
:03:45. > :03:47.would have said some people's minds at rest. The Scottish Government is
:03:48. > :03:52.being clear about what it wants to see, what we are not hearing back
:03:53. > :03:58.any preferences but we are hearing a lot of things being rolled out by
:03:59. > :04:05.rumour and there have been a lot of worries about passports. That is
:04:06. > :04:13.vital for jobs in the private sector in Scotland. Today's announcers are
:04:14. > :04:17.designed to pacify the Tory right wing. There has been much
:04:18. > :04:21.consultation between the British and Scottish Government over Brexit and
:04:22. > :04:27.you have been involved in some of that but the fact is, or is it, do
:04:28. > :04:32.you have any formal rule? Do you have any ability to see on any
:04:33. > :04:36.issue, look, this is important for us the Scottish Government, that has
:04:37. > :04:40.to be part of any Brexit steel. Or do you feel that on anything you say
:04:41. > :04:46.that the British government will just say thank you very much real
:04:47. > :04:49.advice no thank you. We're too early to say definitively what the
:04:50. > :04:53.situation is. Those meetings are continuing and there is another
:04:54. > :04:56.plenary meeting this month. There is some small print in the government
:04:57. > :04:59.announcement today which seems to imply that we will be asked in the
:05:00. > :05:02.announcement today which seems to devolved administrations for the
:05:03. > :05:06.ideas and views, that is not consultation and is certainly not be
:05:07. > :05:10.to reason a full engagement and involvement that she promised. So we
:05:11. > :05:12.have to keep arguing for a pressing for an insisting upon the
:05:13. > :05:17.involvement of the Scottish Government and the other devolved
:05:18. > :05:23.administrations in the meat of these matters. What do you mean by that?
:05:24. > :05:28.That are clearly things that are fully devolved matters within
:05:29. > :05:31.Scotland, the fishing industry is one and agriculture as even talking
:05:32. > :05:35.about is another one, there are huge issues in education and the
:05:36. > :05:37.environment, issues that the Scottish Government deals with
:05:38. > :05:40.anti-Scottish ballad deals with. We have to make sure that we are
:05:41. > :05:45.involved in the negotiations of those matters, we can be a gushy. We
:05:46. > :05:47.are not hearing that so we have to have a structure up to Article 50
:05:48. > :06:01.that develops Are you saying you want to veto or
:06:02. > :06:06.that you won the Scottish Government to be involved in the act one
:06:07. > :06:09.negotiations with the EU? Well, there are issues which are issues
:06:10. > :06:14.for the Scottish Government and not issues with the UK Government. A
:06:15. > :06:17.piece of legislation such as what Theresa May is promising, this great
:06:18. > :06:21.repeal act, will require the approval of the Scottish Parliament.
:06:22. > :06:26.A legislative consent motion will be required. The Scottish Government,
:06:27. > :06:29.Scottish Parliament, has a formal role better. We need to make sure we
:06:30. > :06:34.are in there discussing these matters, because on what we are
:06:35. > :06:38.hearing so far, the matters of great importance, three movements, a whole
:06:39. > :06:43.range of matters on education and environment... It doesn't make me
:06:44. > :06:49.think our vital interests are being protected. Will you vote against the
:06:50. > :06:52.repeal bill in the Scottish Parliament? There is presently a
:06:53. > :06:55.majority against it. We have had three votes in the past three weeks
:06:56. > :07:00.on European matters and all have been in favour of the single market.
:07:01. > :07:03.And against what appears to be the current position of the hard
:07:04. > :07:07.Brexiteer 's who were pushing Theresa May is trying to force her
:07:08. > :07:10.into the camp. At the present moment, that would appear to be the
:07:11. > :07:14.case. Thank you very much for rushing to join us. Now it's time to
:07:15. > :07:19.look at what is coming up in the I'm joined by Andy Maciver,
:07:20. > :07:22.who is a former head of communications for
:07:23. > :07:23.the Conservatives, and is now Director of the PR
:07:24. > :07:25.firm Message Matters. And by the journalist and writer
:07:26. > :07:39.Katie Grant. There was great kerfuffle a few
:07:40. > :07:42.months ago when Nicola Sturgeon suggested that the Scottish
:07:43. > :07:47.Parliament could perhaps block Brexit by refusing to back a motion.
:07:48. > :07:51.From what Mike Russell suggested, it looks like this situation has arisen
:07:52. > :07:55.quicker than we thought. I thought it would be much more equivocal
:07:56. > :07:59.about bad. It's a very difficult situation to decide what to do about
:08:00. > :08:02.that particular motion. I'm not convinced that they actually well.
:08:03. > :08:09.It's a very delicate balance of them. He said they probably would.
:08:10. > :08:12.Yes, I'm quite surprised by that. I'm not sure that's what Nicola
:08:13. > :08:19.Sturgeon would've said. The delicate bouncers standing up for their
:08:20. > :08:24.interests, the interest of the voters, but also doing what appears
:08:25. > :08:29.to be the right thing by the UK. And helping the will of the UK people
:08:30. > :08:36.into practice. It's a difficult one. If Mike Russell does what Mike
:08:37. > :08:40.into practice. It's a difficult one. Russell as suggested, I'm sure the
:08:41. > :08:46.British Parliament can override that, but it is something of a
:08:47. > :08:52.concert usual crisis. If you got the Scottish Parliament saying, see that
:08:53. > :08:55.repeal bill? No. There would be a constitutional crisis and I don't
:08:56. > :09:00.know how it would be resolved, but the Scottish Government needs to
:09:01. > :09:05.remember that... I was voting remain but over 1 million Scots did vote to
:09:06. > :09:09.leave. They need to be aware of Scotland as a whole and not just of
:09:10. > :09:17.their... I know most Scots voted to remain, but we didn't buy every
:09:18. > :09:19.single Scot. The Scottish Government in these negotiations needs to
:09:20. > :09:27.represent the whole of Scotland are not just their own narrow interests.
:09:28. > :09:31.But they can say we're representing that they would say, you can never
:09:32. > :09:35.represent all the people, all the time, and over 60% voted to stay in
:09:36. > :09:40.the EU, so we are presenting the people of Scotland and not just SNP
:09:41. > :09:43.support. Is going to be very difficult because they will ban had
:09:44. > :09:48.to sell bad as somehow being a positive when it will look like a
:09:49. > :09:54.large negative. Everybody knows that we are in the UK and the UK voted to
:09:55. > :09:58.leave, so it is a difficult thing to sell. The Scottish rural and saying
:09:59. > :10:02.they're going to veto it and therefore what happens next? The
:10:03. > :10:06.race debate over whether the legislative consent motion is
:10:07. > :10:09.actually required. Some constitutional experts say it would
:10:10. > :10:13.not. It's worth noting that not everybody would agree that the
:10:14. > :10:18.legislative consent motion is required. You can sense of
:10:19. > :10:19.frustration. In a sense, I'm not sure if it's fair to say that David
:10:20. > :10:25.Davis looks but all this talk of how sure if it's fair to say that David
:10:26. > :10:27.she will be making sure Boris Johnson does this, that and the
:10:28. > :10:37.other and will stand up for Scotland. In a formal sense, neither
:10:38. > :10:39.the Scottish Government nor Ruth Davidson, nor indeed members of
:10:40. > :10:42.the Scottish Government nor Ruth Parliament, seem to have any formal
:10:43. > :10:47.role in this. If they have, we don't know what it is yet. I think the
:10:48. > :10:51.fact that we don't know what it is yet his person to the debate. Ruth
:10:52. > :10:54.Davidson has been a lot stronger than a lot of people in sticking to
:10:55. > :10:58.her guns as what you might call a soft Brexiteer. I think Mike Russell
:10:59. > :11:04.was probable quite unfair on her in saying she was a born-again
:11:05. > :11:12.Brexiteer. I Dabiq she is. -- I don't think she is. If anything, the
:11:13. > :11:17.soft- hard line which is unhelpful. It will be negotiation based on
:11:18. > :11:23.individual circumstances. The trouble is, it's all becoming a bit
:11:24. > :11:29.Clintonesque. Bill, not Hillary! It depends what you mean by social
:11:30. > :11:35.market. For example, on this issue of past voting or financial
:11:36. > :11:40.services, asset managers in Scotland, by having a business set
:11:41. > :11:45.up in one European union country, you're automatically allowed to do
:11:46. > :11:49.business in other. I have not heard any suggestion that it would be
:11:50. > :11:53.possible to keep that without, and let's get away from talking about
:11:54. > :11:57.what the supermarket means, but without accepting the European Court
:11:58. > :12:02.of Justice, free movement of Labour. I've never had any suggestion. It's
:12:03. > :12:06.a very confusing issue because is a difference between regulation and
:12:07. > :12:11.trade. The past porting issues regulation issues, not trade issues.
:12:12. > :12:15.Membership of the single market is also different from access to the
:12:16. > :12:18.civil market. In all of these discussions and debates that you
:12:19. > :12:21.see, it's very difficult to get into that level of detail and difficult
:12:22. > :12:26.to understand what is actually being sad. I'm not sure that's entirely as
:12:27. > :12:29.the case. I've seen some arguments that suggest that past porting is
:12:30. > :12:32.possible based on it being a regulatory issue, if the regulars
:12:33. > :12:38.re-routing in this country is exactly the same as in EU countries
:12:39. > :12:44.which it might be. On a slightly different subject, we are talking
:12:45. > :12:48.earlier about how Theresa May will want this party conference about the
:12:49. > :12:54.size that this is no longer the David Cameron government. This isn't
:12:55. > :12:58.the Bollington club running things any more. Do you think it's
:12:59. > :13:03.important for her to do that, because Labour will see, and they
:13:04. > :13:07.ran a party with a broadcast after their conferences week saying,
:13:08. > :13:12.actually, this is just the same old Tories. I think it will happen
:13:13. > :13:18.anyway. She has a different manner from David Cameron, she is a woman.
:13:19. > :13:21.Brexit, which is obviously a failure in some ways of David Cameron, is
:13:22. > :13:26.written all over the conference whatever she tries to say about
:13:27. > :13:34.domestic... And they've already said they will get rid of George Osborne.
:13:35. > :13:37.IDC has already made... It's a bit lame of Labour to say it's just a
:13:38. > :13:43.continuation of the same old, same old. It's clearly not. Nothing that
:13:44. > :13:46.Theresa May has done or said have looked like a continuation. I think
:13:47. > :13:53.that's a bit of a lame argument. I think her manner is also different.
:13:54. > :14:00.She's much more formal, is used to meet she speaks in a different way.
:14:01. > :14:01.She's not as Pali, there won't be so much chilling. Thank you both
:14:02. > :14:06.I'll be back at the same time next week.