:00:37. > :00:41.Theresa May was cheered by the Tory faithful
:00:42. > :00:44.as she charted her vision for Brexit.
:00:45. > :00:48.We'll be talking about the plan - or what we know of it -
:00:49. > :00:50.with Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and former Tory Cabinet
:00:51. > :00:55.The olive branch might have withered but Jeremy Corbyn has
:00:56. > :00:56.stamped his authority on the Labour Party
:00:57. > :00:59.with a Shadow Cabinet reshuffle that's rewarded allies
:01:00. > :01:07.And one Ukip MEP is still in hospital following an altercation
:01:08. > :01:12.Just what exactly happened in a week which has seen
:01:13. > :01:22.Could the Scottish Parliament stop a hard Brexit?
:01:23. > :01:26.we'll be speaking to the Crofting Commission boss
:01:27. > :01:40.And we'll be talking about the tape that's derailing Donald Trump's bid
:01:41. > :01:46.We've also reshuffled our own top team here in the studio,
:01:47. > :01:49.and we've ended up with three journalists who show all the unity
:01:50. > :01:58.the humour of a Conservative Party conference speech,
:01:59. > :02:09.and the anger management of a meeting of Ukip MEPS.
:02:10. > :02:15.that means they'll probably be fighting in a few minutes.
:02:16. > :02:17.Yes, it's Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:02:18. > :02:19.So, where else would we start but with Brexit?
:02:20. > :02:21.And the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has been talking
:02:22. > :02:25.He coined a new term - full Brexit - and he was asked
:02:26. > :02:28.if Britain was going to be leaving the EU's single market.
:02:29. > :02:34.This is Brexit. This is full Brexit if you like. We are going to be
:02:35. > :02:40.outside the European Union but we still, because it is over 40% of our
:02:41. > :02:46.trade, we still want to maximise our trade with it. A final question in
:02:47. > :02:50.the papers today. You see soft Brexiteers briefing against hard
:02:51. > :02:55.Brexiteers and vice versa. This is terribly damaging for the Cabinet
:02:56. > :03:02.presumably. We are all Brexiteers now. We have to make a success of
:03:03. > :03:04.it. So, a lot of briefing against Mr Hammond after his speech to the Tory
:03:05. > :03:15.conference. Then Mr Hammond's people briefing
:03:16. > :03:19.against people like Liam Fox David Davis, Boris Johnson. Today, one
:03:20. > :03:25.phrase was they were talking nonsense and garbage. When did we
:03:26. > :03:33.get the first Brexit resignation? A good question. We have full Brexit,
:03:34. > :03:38.open and close Brexit, hard and soft Brexit. The Prime Minister does not
:03:39. > :03:42.want to provide a running commentary so ministers are trying to tell us
:03:43. > :03:46.nothing but in interesting ways. I do not think anyone will resign but
:03:47. > :03:49.what is interesting as you get a situation where everyone is a
:03:50. > :03:52.Brexiteer now but there were very different views about how this is
:03:53. > :03:56.going to go forward. The Prime Minister herself, she did two things
:03:57. > :04:00.last week. She gave a speech for a domestic audience and a foreign
:04:01. > :04:06.audience. She is trying to embody the hopes and dreams of a group of
:04:07. > :04:09.people who feel they have been left out, the people who have been left
:04:10. > :04:11.behind on the domestic front and also voted for Brexit. By embodying
:04:12. > :04:16.those people fighting for their causes she is having to take a hard
:04:17. > :04:21.line on immigration. There may be no one about to resign now but we are
:04:22. > :04:26.only 100 days into this many government and the briefing on both
:04:27. > :04:31.sides of the so-called hard Brexit versus the so-called soft Brexit was
:04:32. > :04:36.the Treasury. It seems to embody the soft Brexit approach. The briefing
:04:37. > :04:42.is fierce. It is going to lead to trouble, to blood. This is a
:04:43. > :04:45.peak-time will stop we have just come away from the Tory Party
:04:46. > :04:50.conference where every journalist worth their salt is working the
:04:51. > :04:54.party circuit, going to dinners. It is an easy agenda to get every
:04:55. > :04:57.cabinet minister you lunch or dine with to give you their version of
:04:58. > :05:03.what Brexit said -- should mean. There is a melting pot here which is
:05:04. > :05:07.bubbling away. Things may become more disciplined in the week ahead.
:05:08. > :05:12.I do not think it is sustainable for Theresa May to say she will not give
:05:13. > :05:16.a running commentary. It is a red rag to every journalist and all her
:05:17. > :05:20.own Cabinet. You cannot keep that going for the next few months. She
:05:21. > :05:26.will have to give a clearer guide as to whether it is hard, soft, in or
:05:27. > :05:34.out, whatever it is. Theresa May is going to have to deploy the smack or
:05:35. > :05:38.firm government. She has been smacking away already. All three
:05:39. > :05:42.Brexit is happening to be airing personal opinions. The fact they are
:05:43. > :05:46.ministers in charge of this is totally irrelevant. There is
:05:47. > :05:50.political and economic things at work. What no one will say is that
:05:51. > :05:53.you can have hard Brexit but it will probably almost certainly have
:05:54. > :05:57.economic consequences. How do you go as a politician of the country and
:05:58. > :06:03.say we hear you want to control Iraq -- immigration but that means the
:06:04. > :06:09.country will be poorer? People will always be straddling it in a really
:06:10. > :06:12.uncomfortable way. OK. We'll be talking more about this as the
:06:13. > :06:15.programme goes on, you will not be surprised to hear.
:06:16. > :06:17.This week, Theresa May closed her party's conference
:06:18. > :06:19.with a speech designed to grab the centre ground
:06:20. > :06:23.She positioned the Conservatives as champion of the working classes
:06:24. > :06:25.and pledged to help those left behind by globalisation.
:06:26. > :06:28.We'll wait to see what any of that that means in practice.
:06:29. > :06:30.But it was what she had to say about Britain's exit
:06:31. > :06:33.from the EU that had the biggest immediate impact,
:06:34. > :06:37.not least on the value of the pound, as the world began to get a clearer
:06:38. > :06:47.We now know when the process of leaving the EU will begin.
:06:48. > :06:50.Theresa May has set a deadline of the end of next March
:06:51. > :06:52.for triggering Article 50, which formally begins the Brexit
:06:53. > :06:57.That allows only two years to do a deal, so we should be out
:06:58. > :07:01.of the EU by the end of March 2019 by the latest.
:07:02. > :07:03.The Government will also introduce a so-called Great Repeal
:07:04. > :07:07.Bill next year, which will end our membership of the EU.
:07:08. > :07:09.Theresa May talked of Britain being a fully
:07:10. > :07:15.The Prime Minister also said she will prioritise
:07:16. > :07:17.controlling immigration by ending the free movement
:07:18. > :07:21.Because being subject to the European Court of Justice
:07:22. > :07:23.and free movement are key requirements of membership
:07:24. > :07:27.of the EU single market, this strongly suggests the Prime
:07:28. > :07:31.Minister does not see Britain remaining a member.
:07:32. > :07:37.But there were some mixed messages about life after Brexit.
:07:38. > :07:40.The ability of EU citizens to stay in the UK remains a grey area.
:07:41. > :07:46.Brexit secretary David Davis said they would be 100% able to stay
:07:47. > :07:50.while Theresa May struck a more cautious tone.
:07:51. > :07:52.And Home Secretary Amber Rudd's plan to shame firms that
:07:53. > :07:58.take on foreign, rather than British, staff, faced a backlash
:07:59. > :08:00.from business and political opponents.
:08:01. > :08:05.There was also a range of mood music about life as we head for the door.
:08:06. > :08:07.Chancellor Philip Hammond was at one end, warning the country
:08:08. > :08:12.to brace for a roller-coaster ride ahead.
:08:13. > :08:14.But Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson attacked what he called
:08:15. > :08:17.gloomadon poppers and said Britain would be more active on the world
:08:18. > :08:24.Well, I'm joined now by the Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron.
:08:25. > :08:27.And the former Conservative Cabinet minister, Iain Duncan Smith.
:08:28. > :08:40.Let me come straight to the point, first of all with you, Iain Duncan
:08:41. > :08:44.Smith. Is it now clear that whatever relationship we will have with the
:08:45. > :08:51.single market, we will not be a member of the single market when
:08:52. > :08:55.Brexit is complete? I think when you add all these things together, it
:08:56. > :08:59.becomes, I believe, is pretty clear that what the Prime Minister said,
:09:00. > :09:07.what has been said by a number of Cabinet ministers, if the centre of
:09:08. > :09:11.our negotiations is that we intend to control our borders and the flow
:09:12. > :09:15.of migrants from the European Union, which has caused, in some cases, a
:09:16. > :09:20.great deal of damage to workers and their incomes at the bottom level,
:09:21. > :09:23.the skilled level, that means there is no way that the European Union
:09:24. > :09:30.will be able to allow us to be a member of the single market. That is
:09:31. > :09:35.not the same as access. Tim Farron, do you accept that is the way we are
:09:36. > :09:40.going? Whatever access arrangements we have, and we will have some
:09:41. > :09:46.arrangements. Even North Korea has access to the single market. But we
:09:47. > :09:51.won't be a member. That looks to be the way the Government is taking us.
:09:52. > :09:55.It is a massive mistake. I think Ian is wrong to say there has been a
:09:56. > :09:59.massive decision in favour of us leaving the single market and if
:10:00. > :10:13.that is what he is implying. It is given that a small majority voted to
:10:14. > :10:16.leave the EU but no one voted to leave the common or single market.
:10:17. > :10:18.It seems to me to be flying in the face of all the economic indicators
:10:19. > :10:20.of whatever the British people want, or is best for British jobs. It
:10:21. > :10:23.seems, for the Conservative Party, to be a reinterpretation of the
:10:24. > :10:31.result for a hard Brexit that nobody voted for. That is strong point. We
:10:32. > :10:35.do not have too much time this morning, so I'm going to try to keep
:10:36. > :10:39.this moving quickly. How do respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith? It is
:10:40. > :10:45.utter rubbish. The British people made it clear decision. They were
:10:46. > :10:50.asked a simple question. Do you want to stay in or leave the European
:10:51. > :10:54.Union? Were they asked whether they wanted to leave the single market?
:10:55. > :10:57.You need to have a look at the rules around this. The single market as
:10:58. > :11:05.part of the European Union, whether you like it or not. Do you think we
:11:06. > :11:12.should be in the single market? Do you agree with the overwhelming
:11:13. > :11:15.majority? No, no. I am sorry. The massive benefits which exist are
:11:16. > :11:19.asked to be able to trade with the European Union and have access.
:11:20. > :11:24.America has access. They sell more to the European Union than we do.
:11:25. > :11:29.Hold on. There is no point talking over each other because you are too
:11:30. > :11:34.far-away. Let me come to Tim Farron. If you want to be in the single
:11:35. > :11:38.market, you have to accept free movement. You have to accept the
:11:39. > :11:43.jurisdiction of the European port. In effect, that is membership of the
:11:44. > :11:56.EU. Isn't that what we voted against? -- the European Court. Tim
:11:57. > :12:02.Farron I am talking to. The reality is, and I accept the result of the
:12:03. > :12:06.referendum. It is the direction of the United Kingdom being towards the
:12:07. > :12:16.European Union as we stand. The deal we get at the end, as Lord Kurt, the
:12:17. > :12:20.writer of Article 50, agreed with me overnight because destination is not
:12:21. > :12:24.the same. You cannot start this process with democracy and end up
:12:25. > :12:28.with a stitch up, which is what the British people will get. Many people
:12:29. > :12:32.around the country voted to leave the European Union but there will
:12:33. > :12:37.not agree, I am certain, with having imposed upon them complete exit from
:12:38. > :12:42.any relationship with the nearest market and friends and neighbours,
:12:43. > :12:48.which will cost tens and hundreds of thousands of jobs. Let me get you to
:12:49. > :12:53.respond to that, Iain Duncan Smith. When article 50 was drafted, he did
:12:54. > :12:56.not mean it to help any country leave, he deliberately designed it
:12:57. > :13:00.so it would make it so difficult to leave it would almost be nigh on
:13:01. > :13:04.impossible. The second thing about the point that Tim makes, which is
:13:05. > :13:14.complete nonsense, is the added that we will lose tens of thousands of
:13:15. > :13:16.jobs. What we are looking for is a free trade relationship with the
:13:17. > :13:18.European Union. That is the key point. We are not leaving Europe, we
:13:19. > :13:24.are leaving the European Union. This is the problem. There is not a
:13:25. > :13:30.problem in that for common-sense and decent people. Hold on, Tim Farron.
:13:31. > :13:37.Sterling has slumped at the prospect of hard Brexit as it has dawned on
:13:38. > :13:42.the markets that the Government is heading for a so-called hard Brexit.
:13:43. > :13:47.Doesn't that give you pause for thought? Doesn't it make you think
:13:48. > :13:52.it might not be the right course? If you go to the airport at the moment,
:13:53. > :13:58.you would be lucky to get 1 euro for ?1. Doesn't that make you think? Not
:13:59. > :14:02.really. What you know about the free-flowing currency is it will
:14:03. > :14:05.fall and rise in accordance with what people speculate about and the
:14:06. > :14:12.prospects for the future. The point to look at is what the underlying
:14:13. > :14:15.story is for UK business. It used to be that the BBC generally spent its
:14:16. > :14:21.whole time telling us how terrible things work if you look at the FTSE
:14:22. > :14:27.250 or the FTSE 100. In the same period we have seen the FTSE 250,
:14:28. > :14:31.the small and medium companies, at record levels high. Much higher than
:14:32. > :14:36.before we decided to leave the European Union. Here is the other
:14:37. > :14:41.point. There is hugely a story about a strong dollar. The pound rose
:14:42. > :14:48.against the yen was the dollar rose against the euro, the yen, and the
:14:49. > :14:56.pout. Here is the deal. The pound is doing our supporters a of good. --
:14:57. > :15:03.the pound. There is no point heckling. That is my job. The point
:15:04. > :15:09.is that the pound having fallen means British business is doing very
:15:10. > :15:14.well. And that is a very good thing. Other than the slump in Stirling,
:15:15. > :15:21.what has gone wrong for the UK economy since the 23rd of June?
:15:22. > :15:28.First of all, I am not saying everything is completely calamitous.
:15:29. > :15:31.I take the views of all of the business leaders, people who wrote
:15:32. > :15:35.to the Financial Times yesterday, people who are former members of the
:15:36. > :15:39.Prime Minister's business advisory council, who say that whatever your
:15:40. > :15:44.view on leaving the European Union, departure from the single market
:15:45. > :15:50.would be calamitous. Really worrying indicator, this 31 year low drop in
:15:51. > :15:53.the pound, and we have not even left yet. That is what worries me. And
:15:54. > :15:58.what worries me more than anything else is that you've got the British
:15:59. > :16:03.business community, who now feel that the Conservative Party are
:16:04. > :16:06.listening to the English nationalist forces that have taken over the Tory
:16:07. > :16:10.party, rather than to good common-sense business practice. When
:16:11. > :16:16.Roger, who, the Ukip MEP, tells you that you have gone too far here,
:16:17. > :16:20.then you probably have gone too far. Iain Duncan Smith, let me bring you
:16:21. > :16:24.back in. We haven't got time for speeches this morning, from either
:16:25. > :16:29.of you. Iain Duncan Smith - don't we need to give just a bit on free
:16:30. > :16:33.movement, to secure open access? If we want really good access to the
:16:34. > :16:38.single market, we will have to give something on free movement?
:16:39. > :16:42.Actually, I wrote about a week ago in a paper which set out how you
:16:43. > :16:46.have control of your migration policy which is flexible enough to
:16:47. > :16:50.allow people to come into jobs inside the UK or outside the UK. And
:16:51. > :16:54.that is the kind of flexibility which leaves the British Government
:16:55. > :16:57.controlling the idea about how you access work through work permits.
:16:58. > :17:00.That means for higher skilled people, it will be a very light
:17:01. > :17:04.touch regime, but for the low skilled, which is where the most
:17:05. > :17:08.damage has been done, you have tight regime. You say, listen to British
:17:09. > :17:11.businesses - these are the self appointed losers of British
:17:12. > :17:16.business. That meet you something - these are the same people who told
:17:17. > :17:21.us before that Brexit... They told us, just like you did, Tim, that we
:17:22. > :17:24.would crash and burn afterwards, there would be a calamitous fall,
:17:25. > :17:32.the British economy would be destroyed. Some of us had a more
:17:33. > :17:41.lofty view. I wish everybody would get calm because what we want is
:17:42. > :17:44.Britain to do well. It is not my party... I have got one more
:17:45. > :17:52.question for you, Tim Farron - why have you now lost a second here in
:17:53. > :17:55.the House of Lords, Baroness Manzoor, who says you are not
:17:56. > :17:58.recognising the will of the people in the referendum by calling for a
:17:59. > :18:06.second referendum? She has joined the Tories, so that's Brive - how
:18:07. > :18:10.many more to go? Well, we are 20,000 up, Andrew. It is a peculiar
:18:11. > :18:14.decision which I totally respect. You only need to look at what's
:18:15. > :18:18.happened since June, with the Liberal Democrats gaining 20,000
:18:19. > :18:21.members. Thousands of them from the Conservatives, hundreds since their
:18:22. > :18:25.conference last week. You look at the by-election gains, the Liberal
:18:26. > :18:32.Democrats winning 18 in the last few months, and half of them... You are
:18:33. > :18:40.not set to lose her? I am always sad to lose people, but I am joined
:18:41. > :18:44.overjoyed to have gained 20,000. Come and joiners in the studio next
:18:45. > :18:47.time, where we can get a proper grip on this debate!
:18:48. > :18:50.With Parliament returning tomorrow, Jeremy Corbyn has been
:18:51. > :18:52.reshuffling his Shadow Cabinet, following his thumping win in this
:18:53. > :18:55.And unlike previous reshuffles, it's been a pretty decisive affair,
:18:56. > :18:58.which has seen him give big jobs to his supporters.
:18:59. > :19:02.Mr Corbyn has moved ally Dianne Abbott to Shadow
:19:03. > :19:05.Home Secretary, keeping Emily Thornberry at Shadow
:19:06. > :19:07.Foreign Secretary and moving Clive Lewis to Business.
:19:08. > :19:18.He's been replaced on the Defence brief by Nia Griffith,
:19:19. > :19:23.There's also a job for new Labour peer Shami Chakrabarti,
:19:24. > :19:26.who recently carried out a report into anti-semitism in the party.
:19:27. > :19:28.And chief whip Rosie Winterton is out.
:19:29. > :19:34.She's replaced by the veteran whip Nick Brown.
:19:35. > :19:39.You may remember him from the Gordon Brown years.
:19:40. > :19:41.Mr Corbyn has also brought back a number
:19:42. > :19:43.of Shadow Cabinet members, who resigned in protest
:19:44. > :19:46.They include Jon Ashworth, as Shadow Health Secretary.
:19:47. > :19:48.Although he's also been removed from the National Executive
:19:49. > :19:50.Committee, Labour's ruling body, where power has been finely balanced
:19:51. > :20:01.Well, to discuss this, we're joined by the Labour MP, John Mann.
:20:02. > :20:08.John Mann, who is a Corbynite critic. Mr Corbyn says this is the
:20:09. > :20:12.most diverse shadow cabinet ever, the best team to take Labour forward
:20:13. > :20:16.- what do you say? Well, it's his choice of team. And I think we
:20:17. > :20:20.should get on with the job now. Think he has won, whether people
:20:21. > :20:29.like it or not. And the last and we want I think is a year of
:20:30. > :20:35.internalised, inward looking navel-gazing. Like the last year?
:20:36. > :20:39.Like the last year. And I have said, I was not in favour of the timing of
:20:40. > :20:43.this challenge, but we actually have to get to grips with the referendum
:20:44. > :20:47.result and the fact that quite a lot of Labour voters voted to leave,
:20:48. > :20:51.unlike the general view in the Labour Party. There's lots of issues
:20:52. > :20:54.we should be looking at, but we should not be looking inwards. Is
:20:55. > :20:57.there much of an olive branch from Mr Corbyn to the Parliamentary
:20:58. > :21:02.Labour Party in this? I would not call it an olive branch. But if I
:21:03. > :21:08.was him, I would have done pretty much what he has done. He's won the
:21:09. > :21:11.election. If I was leader, I might choose different people. That
:21:12. > :21:15.probably goes for everyone of the 200-plus members of the
:21:16. > :21:21.Parliamentary party. But I think there is a bit of a... The idea you
:21:22. > :21:27.can negotiate a shadow cabinet or cabinet, I mean, it's important that
:21:28. > :21:30.he has all viewpoints represented somewhere, otherwise we'll be much
:21:31. > :21:34.weaker. And so we wait to see whether every view is going to get
:21:35. > :21:43.proper Leanne Wood. That's vital. But he's got to make the choices. --
:21:44. > :21:51.every view is going to get properly aired.. Quite a lot of London
:21:52. > :21:54.representation - how does that help people like you in the north and the
:21:55. > :21:59.Midlands? It's following the trends of Tony Blair, was always keen on
:22:00. > :22:04.having lots of people who worked in London, and Ed Miliband even more
:22:05. > :22:08.so. So it is not a new trait. He's chosen the people, but what's
:22:09. > :22:11.crucial is, with ceremony people from the metropolitan area, that
:22:12. > :22:16.they spend a lot of time out in areas like mean, not talking to the
:22:17. > :22:21.members, not doing photocalls, they can do that if they want, but going
:22:22. > :22:25.and talking to voters. If they do that, I've got no objection. If they
:22:26. > :22:28.don't, then that will mean that there is not sufficient knowledge of
:22:29. > :22:33.what the wider electorate is thinking. Those shadow cabinet
:22:34. > :22:39.members, every week, should be out there knocking on real doors, in
:22:40. > :22:44.areas that perhaps they are not too familiar with. Keir Starmer, your
:22:45. > :22:50.new shadow Brexit secretary, he has said that there should be a vote on
:22:51. > :22:54.article 50, that when the Government moves it, Parliament should vote.
:22:55. > :22:58.What do you think of that? Well, let's see what... We are quite a way
:22:59. > :23:02.away from seeing what Google is going to do. I think what is vital
:23:03. > :23:10.in terms of Brexit is actually to get into the detail, because there's
:23:11. > :23:15.a lot of slogans, the full Brexit, the soft Brexit, the hard Brexit...
:23:16. > :23:21.Actually, the issue is, what access do we get to markets, what access do
:23:22. > :23:26.we give to our markets? And is there any form of restriction on the free
:23:27. > :23:31.movement of labour? They are the three big issues. We need detail.
:23:32. > :23:34.And it's the negotiation not in the British Parliament but with the
:23:35. > :23:39.Germans and the French in particular that is vital. And of course that
:23:40. > :23:41.hasn't begun. Mr Corbyn told us at the Labour Party conference that he
:23:42. > :23:46.was not really that interested in controlling immigration. Keir
:23:47. > :23:52.Starmer said this morning on the BBC that immigration has become down -
:23:53. > :23:55.you must encouraged by that? What a coalition! Keir Starmer as the
:23:56. > :24:00.person responsible I hope we'll be talking to those of us who supported
:24:01. > :24:05.the Leave campaign in the Vale, and more fundamentally, getting out of
:24:06. > :24:10.those areas where the vast majority of Labour voters voted to leave. If
:24:11. > :24:15.he's going to do his job properly, that is critical. I'm confident that
:24:16. > :24:18.he will do that. Do you know yet what the party policy is on
:24:19. > :24:22.immigration? I'm sure that will emerge over the time. I do not know
:24:23. > :24:27.what the Conservative Party's ease, either. We do not know what the
:24:28. > :24:32.response of the Germans and the French will be. They have got
:24:33. > :24:36.elections next year. This is rather a movable feast in those countries.
:24:37. > :24:40.Therefore, we should be in 20 new negotiations, as Labour. It's
:24:41. > :24:47.crucial that our leadership talks and listens to Labour voters and to
:24:48. > :24:50.those who have voted Labour in the past.
:24:51. > :24:55.Jeremy Corbyn's re-shuffle has upset the Chair
:24:56. > :24:59.He represents the party's backbench MPs.
:25:00. > :25:02.In an e-mail, John Cryer said Mr Corbyn "did not
:25:03. > :25:05.engage" in a promised plan to reunite the party by allowing MPs
:25:06. > :25:10.Mr Cryer said he had been in talks with the leadership
:25:11. > :25:14.with the aim of "striking an agreement which would allow
:25:15. > :25:16.some places to be filled through elections, while the leader
:25:17. > :25:20.But on Wednesday it became clear "a reshuffle was under way,
:25:21. > :25:27.which had not been discussed or mentioned".
:25:28. > :25:29.Well, we're joined now by Barry Gardiner.
:25:30. > :25:39.He's kept his job as Shadow International Trade Secretary.
:25:40. > :25:45.What happened to the idea of electing at least part of the Shadow
:25:46. > :25:50.Cabinet? Well, I was part of the discussions in the Shadow Cabinet,
:25:51. > :25:54.with Rosie Winterton, who was the chief whip. And she made it very
:25:55. > :25:58.clear that what would need to happen is, there would need to be a vote
:25:59. > :26:04.first of all at the NEC to change the party rules. So I don't think
:26:05. > :26:07.anybody was under any illusion that we could have direct elections now
:26:08. > :26:11.to the Shadow Cabinet without that change in the party rules. Is the
:26:12. > :26:16.idea dead for the foreseeable future? Doormen, is the honest
:26:17. > :26:21.answer. That is for Jeremy to decide. But I think what would be
:26:22. > :26:27.clearly wrong is, if we now going to almost rerunning what was the
:26:28. > :26:31.election contest. And it would be foolish to saddle a leader with a
:26:32. > :26:35.group of people in the Shadow Cabinet that were out of sympathy.
:26:36. > :26:41.And indeed, that was why the Parliamentary Labour Party, when Ed
:26:42. > :26:43.Miliband asked us to give him the right to appoint the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:44. > :26:49.rather than the previous system, which had been elected... What do
:26:50. > :26:54.you make of the chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party, Mr
:26:55. > :26:58.Cryer, complaining that Mr Corbyn did not engage with him in this
:26:59. > :27:05.reshuffle? Look, I don't know what discussions took place. John is a
:27:06. > :27:10.very good friend. He's a very good representative of the PLP, as its
:27:11. > :27:13.chair. But he's one of the best connected people in the party, and
:27:14. > :27:20.the idea that anything took face without his knowledge I find it
:27:21. > :27:24.difficult to believe. He says, Niall Quinn OMP backing him up was a
:27:25. > :27:29.charades in the negotiations? That is a separate question. And I don't
:27:30. > :27:35.think that's true at all. Because the Shadow Cabinet said to the
:27:36. > :27:40.previous NEC meeting delegation, to actually initiate those
:27:41. > :27:46.negotiations. But I think John Mann, who sat here just a few moments ago,
:27:47. > :27:49.got it absolutely right - the Labour Party now must not look inwards for
:27:50. > :27:53.the next year, it must begin to look outwards. It must be challenging the
:27:54. > :28:00.government on what it is doing in our education system and saying, it
:28:01. > :28:01.is wrong to segregate our children. They must be challenging the
:28:02. > :28:07.government on housing and homelessness. I am delighted that
:28:08. > :28:10.John has come back into the Shadow Cabinet, nobody better to take
:28:11. > :28:14.forward our fight for housing in this country. If you want to appeal
:28:15. > :28:18.across the country, are there not too many London metropolitan types
:28:19. > :28:22.at the top? The four great Shadow offices of state all seemed to come
:28:23. > :28:29.from within walking distance of each other. It's a kind of shadow cabinet
:28:30. > :28:32.of all BMW one talents? Well, you could ever welcomed the fact that
:28:33. > :28:49.two of those great offices of state, for the first time ever, are held by
:28:50. > :28:54.women. -- NW1 talents. Broomstick is, it is very London centric. It is
:28:55. > :28:59.not because you have got five MPs from the north-east in the Shadow
:29:00. > :29:02.Cabinet, four from Greater Manchester, all of whom are women.
:29:03. > :29:06.You've got five from Yorkshire. In terms of the population of the
:29:07. > :29:15.country as a whole, it's very representative of whether Labour
:29:16. > :29:20.votes are. John Ashworth accepted the Shadow bridge but is no longer
:29:21. > :29:26.on the National Executive Committee. Does Mr Corbyn now have a majority
:29:27. > :29:31.on the NEC, the ruling body of the Labour Party? The majority would
:29:32. > :29:36.always be on issue by issue. I don't think anybody goes to the NEC
:29:37. > :29:40.determined to wage wall or battle. I assure that people go there to
:29:41. > :29:44.listen to arguments and decide what is in the best interest of the party
:29:45. > :29:48.and the country and take Ossetians accordingly. Why was it important
:29:49. > :29:56.that Mr Ashworth stepped down? I don't know whether it was important.
:29:57. > :30:00.John has been a superb member of the Shadow Cabinet. He has always
:30:01. > :30:05.represented very clearly the views of party members, and I think he
:30:06. > :30:16.will do a fantastic job at health. We will leave it there.
:30:17. > :30:23.I still have energy and can. When we last spoke, I put it to you that we
:30:24. > :30:30.were massive importers of energy including gas. I came here primed
:30:31. > :30:36.for that. Next time I will bring the power with meat!
:30:37. > :30:41.The party with the third highest vote share at the general election
:30:42. > :30:43.has, just since Tuesday, lost a leader, seen
:30:44. > :30:46.the return of Nigel Farage - even if only temporarily -
:30:47. > :30:48.and seen the favourite to take over end up in hospital
:30:49. > :30:50.after an altercation in the European Parliament.
:30:51. > :31:02.Our Ellie's been watching the soap opera unfold.
:31:03. > :31:06.So, we've all heard the rumours about the internal
:31:07. > :31:10.Well, this week, they played out in front of our very eyes on the TV
:31:11. > :31:13.screens in the most dramatic of ways.
:31:14. > :31:21.It was only just over three weeks ago.
:31:22. > :31:33.18 days later, she realised that wasn't going to happen.
:31:34. > :31:35.In her resignation statement, she said she didn't have
:31:36. > :31:37.sufficient authority, nor the full support, of her MEP
:31:38. > :31:41.colleagues and party officers to continue.
:31:42. > :31:43.There was also this clue in the official form she filled
:31:44. > :31:46.in for the Electoral Commission, where she signed her name
:31:47. > :31:53.In the meantime, Nigel Farage seemed pretty chipper, explaining
:31:54. > :32:00.I keep getting over the wall and running for the hills.
:32:01. > :32:03.Before I am finally free, they drag me back.
:32:04. > :32:09.It doesn't have one because she's resigned.
:32:10. > :32:12.The Ukip constitution is quite clear.
:32:13. > :32:14.In these circumstances, the National Executive Committee has
:32:15. > :32:18.the right to appoint an interim leader, which I presume it will do
:32:19. > :32:22.at its meeting on the 17th of October.
:32:23. > :32:25.I'm told the NEC might have met earlier but someone
:32:26. > :32:27.is on is on a cruise, so it wouldn't be quorate.
:32:28. > :32:30.It was starting to feel a bit like a soap opera.
:32:31. > :32:36.It's almost like being a part of Dynasty.
:32:37. > :32:39.By close of play, this man, who probably would have been leader
:32:40. > :32:42.last time if he hadn't been barred from standing had thrown
:32:43. > :32:47.But then things went really off script, when he, Steven Woolfe,
:32:48. > :32:51.after a meeting with colleagues that went...
:32:52. > :32:55.There are mixed accounts of what happened.
:32:56. > :32:57.It's two grown men getting involved in an altercation.
:32:58. > :33:05.We're talking about a dispute that finished up physically.
:33:06. > :33:10.I understand there was an argument between some MEPs and Steven,
:33:11. > :33:16.I think, picked a fight with one of them, and came off worst.
:33:17. > :33:19.It later transpired that the MEPs had been arguing about reports that
:33:20. > :33:23.Mr Woolfe had considered defecting to the Tories.
:33:24. > :33:25.That had ended in a scuffle with this man.
:33:26. > :33:36.It was, as people in Hull would say, handbags at dawn.
:33:37. > :33:39.He even tweeted a picture of his hands to prove it.
:33:40. > :33:43.But Mr Woolfe's team questioned that version of events and said his
:33:44. > :33:47.Either way, the two men have been in touch and say
:33:48. > :33:49.they want to meet - handbags and all -
:33:50. > :33:54.But that might not be the end of the story.
:33:55. > :33:57.So, part of Ukip's charm has always been to say and do
:33:58. > :33:59.things the other party would never even dream of.
:34:00. > :34:02.But this week has been different and a number of senior Ukip sources
:34:03. > :34:08.have told me that what happens next will be make or break for the party.
:34:09. > :34:11.They say that will depend on who the next leader is.
:34:12. > :34:13.Before all this happens, Steven Woolfe, seen
:34:14. > :34:16.as a disciple of Nigel Farage, would have been favourite.
:34:17. > :34:21.It must surely have been obvious to anybody, having seen this,
:34:22. > :34:24.that Steven Woolfe, and of course Mike Hookem,
:34:25. > :34:27.I don't think Mike would put his hat into the ring.
:34:28. > :34:31.Surely they can't now consider that either of them could stand
:34:32. > :34:37.The party's biggest donor, Arron Banks,
:34:38. > :34:43.It's fairly indicative of the party split between those who think
:34:44. > :34:45.the new leader should be moulded in Nigel Farage's image,
:34:46. > :34:49.and those who can think of little worse.
:34:50. > :34:54.The party is bigger than any one individual.
:34:55. > :34:56.Everybody has a responsibility within Ukip to safeguard
:34:57. > :35:06.its reputation and that's what I'm asking all people to do now
:35:07. > :35:12.The drama may be over for this week but with the leadership campaign
:35:13. > :35:14.looming, there will be plenty more episodes to come.
:35:15. > :35:16.And we're joined now by the Ukip MEP Bill Etheridge.
:35:17. > :35:18.He was at the meeting where the "altercation"
:35:19. > :35:22.between Steven Woolfe and Mike Hookem took place,
:35:23. > :35:26.and he stood to be leader in the party's last
:35:27. > :35:32.leadership contest, which only finished in September.
:35:33. > :35:43.We have learned, while on-air, that Steven Woolfe has left the hospital
:35:44. > :35:52.in Strasbourg. Bill Etheridge, were punches thrown? First of all, as all
:35:53. > :35:55.MEPs we should apologise to our member ship and supporters for all
:35:56. > :36:00.this nonsense. With regards to punches thrown, I was first on the
:36:01. > :36:07.scene. I did not see punches thrown. I saw Mike with his hands down his
:36:08. > :36:13.side and is Steven Wolfe halfway through and unlatched door. --
:36:14. > :36:18.Steven Woolfe. He was on the floor. Before you got on the scene, there
:36:19. > :36:22.could have been blows exchanged? In the 15 to 30 seconds before I got
:36:23. > :36:26.there, there is a possibility but Mike has denied that there were any
:36:27. > :36:33.punches thrown and I have not seen any evidence that their world. The
:36:34. > :36:36.friends of Steven Woolfe has said independent medical examinations
:36:37. > :36:40.suggests he does have wounds and bruising which cannot be explained
:36:41. > :36:44.by simply a fall to the floor. I am sure the chairman of the party will
:36:45. > :36:48.look into that and see the exact information being discussed. When it
:36:49. > :36:56.is something put out by sources or friends, let's wait and see the
:36:57. > :36:59.actual information. Was it the idea of Steven Woolfe that the dispute
:37:00. > :37:04.should be settled outside? Yes, Stephen stood up and said, if this
:37:05. > :37:09.is the temperature of your comments, I think we should sort out
:37:10. > :37:14.man-to-man. He took off his jacket and walked outside. Unfortunately,
:37:15. > :37:17.and he has said he regrets it, Mike went outside and did the same thing
:37:18. > :37:24.himself was that neither of them should have done it. It was foolish.
:37:25. > :37:28.If that is response by Steven Woolfe to an argument, no matter how
:37:29. > :37:33.heated, among his own MEPs, does that disqualify him to stand as
:37:34. > :37:42.leader? It does not disqualify him. It says something about his
:37:43. > :37:44.temperament. What I will say is it was not heated argument at the
:37:45. > :37:46.start. We were discussing the fact he had been in a conversation with
:37:47. > :37:49.the Conservative Party about joining. Only a day or two earlier
:37:50. > :37:53.he had said he was not going to join for that we asked if that was to do
:37:54. > :37:58.with the fact that he heard Diane James was standing down. That was
:37:59. > :38:03.the purpose of the meeting, to find out what Steven Woolfe was doing
:38:04. > :38:06.about the Conservative Party. Due to this altercation, we never got an
:38:07. > :38:12.answer. I personally would like need to know what he was doing. What was
:38:13. > :38:19.said? I and stand this happened quite quickly into the meeting. What
:38:20. > :38:25.was it that was said which meant, take the jacket off, we will settle
:38:26. > :38:29.this outside? Steven Woolfe had said about how upset he was that he could
:38:30. > :38:35.not stand in the summer, his form were late by 17 minutes. Mike said
:38:36. > :38:39.whether it is your fault and no one else's. Steven Woolfe reacted
:38:40. > :38:43.angrily and we could get no further conversation. That was the extent of
:38:44. > :38:50.the provocation, to say it was your fault. He was not swearing but he
:38:51. > :38:54.basically said, that's your fault, it is your responsibility. Are you
:38:55. > :38:59.going to stand in this leadership contest now? Up until this happens,
:39:00. > :39:02.I was seriously considering rolling in to try to make sure we did not
:39:03. > :39:07.have people who had been negative towards the party and towards Nigel
:39:08. > :39:12.taking over. Now I do not feel I can support Steven Woolfe and, yes, I
:39:13. > :39:17.will be standing. Isn't the bitter truth, your previously the last for
:39:18. > :39:22.18 days. Two MPs have now said to step outside and we will sort this
:39:23. > :39:28.with jackets. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Ukip is not a
:39:29. > :39:34.proper, functioning party without Nigel Farage at the helm? You cannot
:39:35. > :39:39.survive without him. Nigel is a fantastic leader. He has led us very
:39:40. > :39:42.strongly and powerfully. It is up to us to take responsibility. That is
:39:43. > :39:48.one reason I want to do it to bring the party together. Every time he
:39:49. > :39:52.goes quickly fall apart. There is no functioning Ukip I would suggest
:39:53. > :39:56.without Nigel Farage. Up to us to make sure we get systems in place
:39:57. > :40:00.and make sure we have strong leadership and pull the party
:40:01. > :40:04.together. We can do it. We have 4 million voters than 30,000 members.
:40:05. > :40:08.They must be feeling very let down. It is up to us to make sure we do
:40:09. > :40:09.the right thing and look after them and be there to represent them.
:40:10. > :40:11.Thank you. Good morning and welcome
:40:12. > :40:23.to Sunday Politics Scotland. The Government has a mandate
:40:24. > :40:26.for leaving Europe but does it have
:40:27. > :40:29.a mandate for a hard Brexit? Despite a vote
:40:30. > :40:31.of no confidence, the convener of
:40:32. > :40:32.the Crofting Commission tells this programme
:40:33. > :40:35.he refuses to stand down. Will the Scottish
:40:36. > :40:38.Government now intervene? And from 'banking
:40:39. > :40:40.collapse' to Brexit, we're in Hawick to see
:40:41. > :40:42.how one Scottish town has been coping
:40:43. > :40:48.with difficult times. Now, the meanings of 'Brexit means
:40:49. > :40:52.Brexit' proliferate by the moment. MPs right across
:40:53. > :40:55.the political spectrum are demanding they be given
:40:56. > :40:57.a vote on whether there should be
:40:58. > :41:00.a so-called Hard Brexit or whether Britain can stay
:41:01. > :41:04.in the single market, There have been threats
:41:05. > :41:07.from the Scottish Government to frustrate the process
:41:08. > :41:09.as much as possible. But does the Scottish Parliament
:41:10. > :41:12.have any power in this area? A little earlier, I spoke
:41:13. > :41:15.to Professor Alan Page, who has advised Holyrood,
:41:16. > :41:36.Westminster and the EU Well, the good all the Scottish
:41:37. > :41:39.Parliament and bought a's repeal bill the short answer to that
:41:40. > :41:43.question is no it could not. It could withhold its from the repeal
:41:44. > :41:54.Bill depending on its precise terms but that is not the same as blocking
:41:55. > :41:57.it. The Scottish Parliament would, however would it not have to pass
:41:58. > :41:59.legislation that means that it's all legislation does not have to comply
:42:00. > :42:03.with EU law I am not sure the Scottish Parliament would have to do
:42:04. > :42:08.that. But legislation would have to be passed by Westminster I think. In
:42:09. > :42:12.order to relieve the Scottish Parliament of the obligation to
:42:13. > :42:16.comply with EU law. And if they're anything the Scottish Parliament
:42:17. > :42:19.could do to block that it could as I said, with all that is there
:42:20. > :42:21.anything the Scottish Parliament could do to block that? It could, as
:42:22. > :42:24.I said, withhold its consent which would be underlining its opposition
:42:25. > :42:28.to the UK and Scotland leaving the European Union. But simply
:42:29. > :42:32.withholding its consent without war would not affect the validity of the
:42:33. > :42:38.amending legislation. That I think if the crucial point. It is also
:42:39. > :42:42.ambiguous is it not while the Scottish Government might want to
:42:43. > :42:44.vote against that in the Scottish Parliament, for political reasons
:42:45. > :42:49.there are other political reasons in favour of it. For example minimum
:42:50. > :42:52.pricing on alcohol would presumably be within the power of the Scottish
:42:53. > :43:00.Parliament if they did not have to comply with the UK law. Sorry EU
:43:01. > :43:04.law. Well that is a very good point point. Acts of the Scottish
:43:05. > :43:07.Parliament should no longer be open to challenge on grounds within
:43:08. > :43:13.incompatibility with EU law and that would mean for, assuming that the
:43:14. > :43:17.Scotland act was amended to that effect that legislation could no
:43:18. > :43:21.longer be blocked or its recommendation delayed on the
:43:22. > :43:25.grounds that it was incompatible with EU law and alcohol in pricing
:43:26. > :43:29.is the current example of that. Do you have any thoughts on a slightly
:43:30. > :43:33.different issue, which is rearing its head in some of the papers this
:43:34. > :43:37.morning which is members of Parliament not the Scottish
:43:38. > :43:41.Parliament, the hang on a minute we might not have a bowl on when to
:43:42. > :43:50.trigger article 50 but could we really have for example a Hard
:43:51. > :43:53.Brexit and we MPs at an point would have any say on what kind of leaving
:43:54. > :43:55.the European Union would take part in I think that is an absolutely
:43:56. > :44:03.compelling argument. It is a very powerful argument but what is needed
:44:04. > :44:08.clearly is an MPs to support it. You could say that Parliament sold the
:44:09. > :44:11.past once with the European Union referendum act in the sense that it
:44:12. > :44:19.did not make any provision for what was going to happen in the event
:44:20. > :44:23.that the electorate, the people the United Kingdom people both to leave.
:44:24. > :44:30.So that question was left completely open, which is why we are in the
:44:31. > :44:33.position we are today. But, having voted to leave people beginning to
:44:34. > :44:39.think about the actual implications of that, yes I think there is a case
:44:40. > :44:44.for saying do we agree or not agree with what has actually been proposed
:44:45. > :44:49.but as they say enough MPs would actually need to comment on and
:44:50. > :44:55.support that. But either in for the Scottish Parliament because even if
:44:56. > :44:58.you accept the argument that the referendum on the EU was a UK vote
:44:59. > :45:02.that Scotland had already voted to stay part of the UK so it applies in
:45:03. > :45:07.Scotland as much as anywhere else presumably members of the Scottish
:45:08. > :45:13.Parliament could say hang on we are being asked to accept a had breaks,
:45:14. > :45:16.we do not think you Westminster the British government have got any
:45:17. > :45:21.mandate. Scottish MSPs will undoubtedly see that. But, as I
:45:22. > :45:26.indicated earlier that will have no effect unless that argument
:45:27. > :45:31.resonates with Westminster, and in particular with a sufficient number
:45:32. > :45:33.of MPs at Westminster for them to do something about it. All right thank
:45:34. > :45:36.you very much indeed. I'm joined now by the Scottish
:45:37. > :45:37.Conservatives' constitution spokesperson Adam Tomkins,
:45:38. > :45:39.and in Dundee is the SNP's Europe spokesperson
:45:40. > :45:50.at Westminster, Stephen Gethins. Stephen, that was pretty on there is
:45:51. > :45:55.nothing the Scottish Parliament can do to block Brexit no matter what
:45:56. > :45:59.the Scottish Government says. Well, let's not forget we are going to go
:46:00. > :46:02.to one of the greatest constitutional crises, which huge
:46:03. > :46:05.impact on the Scottish Parliament's powers so it is right that is
:46:06. > :46:10.Scottish Parliament should have a say on this. Remember through this
:46:11. > :46:15.Scotland act but according to Alan Page, it does not have any say. I
:46:16. > :46:21.think the Scottish Parliament have to have a say. If we are to take to
:46:22. > :46:25.at her word when she is talking about involving the Scottish
:46:26. > :46:28.Government involving the Scottish Parliament then the Scottish
:46:29. > :46:31.Parliament should have a say and I hope that Westminster is not use its
:46:32. > :46:35.powers of at that we were told it did not exist last year during the
:46:36. > :46:39.Scotland act to force that on the Scottish Parliament. But the point
:46:40. > :46:49.Alan page is making is that she the British Government decided to go for
:46:50. > :46:52.a hard exit exit, no matter how much it may well have consulted the
:46:53. > :46:55.Scottish Government what that means there is nothing the Scottish
:46:56. > :46:56.Parliament can do to stop it. Well, it was clear from the Conservative
:46:57. > :47:00.party conference this week is that it was clear from the Conservative
:47:01. > :47:05.we are heading for the hardest of hard Brexits. We have not been told
:47:06. > :47:10.if it is soft or hard it is definitely a dog's Brexit because we
:47:11. > :47:14.have not had that many details. That is a joke you prepared earlier It
:47:15. > :47:20.have not had that many details. That was good was at not they need to be
:47:21. > :47:24.in. We are in a bit of a mess and I wonder whether Professor Tomkins can
:47:25. > :47:31.tell us whether we are going to be in the single market. We need more
:47:32. > :47:34.details from the government and the need to be respecting the will of
:47:35. > :47:35.the Scottish people and respecting the Scottish Parliament's
:47:36. > :47:39.responsibilities as well. Adam, what is your take on what will happen.
:47:40. > :47:43.Iain Duncan Smith spoke to and renewal earlier. He is was that the
:47:44. > :47:47.British people had voted to get out of the single market because they
:47:48. > :47:50.single market its part of the European Union and we voted to that
:47:51. > :47:54.out of the European Union. Arguably that is not what the people in
:47:55. > :47:59.favour of leaving the worst the campaign. The British people voted,
:48:00. > :48:06.70 but people, voted to leave the European Union. -- 17 point people.
:48:07. > :48:08.That is what Brexit means. The United Kingdom will leave
:48:09. > :48:14.institutions of the European Union. We will no longer be a member state
:48:15. > :48:18.that is what it means. So when you leaders of during the campaign, look
:48:19. > :48:20.exactly what relationship we have with the opinion is up for
:48:21. > :48:25.discussion afterwards, this boat is just about whether or not we are
:48:26. > :48:31.members actually what that meant was wear out of the single market we are
:48:32. > :48:35.out of the customs union and there will be no free movement of labour.
:48:36. > :48:39.You are arguing that actually we voted for all of that. I am not. I
:48:40. > :48:43.am simply arguing that we've voted to leave the European Union meaning
:48:44. > :48:50.that we will cease to be a member state. The live question now is what
:48:51. > :48:54.the of relationship with the Union, with the individual member states of
:48:55. > :48:59.the European Union but Iain Duncan Smith's argument says it means we
:49:00. > :49:03.cannot be part of the single market market.
:49:04. > :49:07.A core part of that argument will be what kind of access or participation
:49:08. > :49:10.in the single market when now on. The Scottish Conservatives have been
:49:11. > :49:14.clear we won't have much access to the single market and as much part
:49:15. > :49:19.of in that, as is compatible with leaving the European Union. I am
:49:20. > :49:22.sorry, Ruth Davidson was on this programme last week saying all that
:49:23. > :49:26.and that she liked free movement of labour and wanted to be part of the
:49:27. > :49:30.single market. Iain Duncan Smith and his views seem to be a by the
:49:31. > :49:33.British Government is saying that we voted against all of the stuff that
:49:34. > :49:39.Ruth Davidson and Adam Tomkins said it was like to see. It is simply not
:49:40. > :49:45.going to happen. The... The... The board was not about membership the
:49:46. > :49:51.single market it was about ownership of the European Union Union. . --
:49:52. > :49:55.the. We will no longer be a member state and the question is what kind
:49:56. > :49:58.of relationship with the EU including what access to the single
:49:59. > :50:03.market and participation in the single market we will now seek to
:50:04. > :50:06.negotiate in the national interest. Stephen, there was also sorts of
:50:07. > :50:08.rhetoric from the Scottish Government immediately after the
:50:09. > :50:15.vote. Nicola Sturgeon went off to Brussels the role of that Scotland
:50:16. > :50:19.could from her stay in the single market as the rest did not. There
:50:20. > :50:21.was some desire that should Scotland vote for independence by European
:50:22. > :50:26.leaders it would be fast tracked back in. Absolutely nothing
:50:27. > :50:30.whatsoever has come of that. What you got from the Scottish Government
:50:31. > :50:33.after the vote was leadership. It was a setting up an expert group to
:50:34. > :50:37.look at the range of options. It was speaking to a European partners. It
:50:38. > :50:44.was on capital investment to offset the danger and damage that
:50:45. > :50:46.Conservatives are doing to our. And it was reassuring EU nationals about
:50:47. > :50:50.your future and that Scotland is their home. We have had none of that
:50:51. > :50:55.from the Conservatives. Now and on the single market now answers from
:50:56. > :50:59.EU nationals just more hard rhetoric at the conference that frankly they
:51:00. > :51:04.should be ashamed of. The Scottish Conservatives are arguing they have
:51:05. > :51:09.said others, nobody is listening to them you do not like the Tories we
:51:10. > :51:13.get the message! In terms of getting any commitments from Europe about
:51:14. > :51:15.anything to do with Brexit Nicola Sturgeon and anybody else in the SNP
:51:16. > :51:26.has got absolutely nowhere. getting we are still waiting for
:51:27. > :51:31.details. Our European partners don't know what they are planning to do
:51:32. > :51:38.next. The Scottish Government rightly came out and set clear
:51:39. > :51:41.leadership. We have had nothing from the UK Government, absolutely
:51:42. > :51:46.nothing, they can't even tell us if they have the objective of remaining
:51:47. > :51:52.part of the single market. Their newspaper reports this morning
:51:53. > :51:59.saying a lot of MPs, including many Tory MPs, want a vote on some of
:52:00. > :52:02.this, that are concerned. They accept they cannot overturn the
:52:03. > :52:05.referendum vote to leave the European Union, but they are worried
:52:06. > :52:10.that there will be no point at which MPs are allowed to say for example
:52:11. > :52:13.that they don't want a hard Brexit or something more like Stephen
:52:14. > :52:18.Gethins want or more like you want, and this is just wrong. I don't
:52:19. > :52:21.understand where that concern comes from. The Prime Minister made it
:52:22. > :52:26.clear in her first conference speech on Sunday last week in Birmingham
:52:27. > :52:32.that there will be a great Repeal Bill as she calls it, to recall the
:52:33. > :52:37.European communities act 1972, the instrument which took us into the EU
:52:38. > :52:40.in the first place in the 1970s. Only Parliament can repeal
:52:41. > :52:42.legislation. Neither the Prime Minister or the government can do
:52:43. > :52:46.legislation. Neither the Prime that. A vote on a bill is not the
:52:47. > :52:50.same as parliament being able to say, for example, we don't want a
:52:51. > :52:55.hard Brexit, we will accept some form of staying in the single
:52:56. > :53:00.market. I don't accept that. I think repealing the European Communities
:53:01. > :53:08.Act will require Parliament to have its say over what will replace it
:53:09. > :53:12.once it is repealed. Really? That is the nature of legislation. Let me be
:53:13. > :53:15.clear, there is an elementary constitutional point, only
:53:16. > :53:24.Parliament can repeal Parliament pod at --'s registration. It will be up
:53:25. > :53:28.to parliament not Theresa May. Stephen Gethins, do you accept that
:53:29. > :53:31.Parliament will have a vote on what kind of Brexit? Parliament should
:53:32. > :53:35.have a vote and the Scottish parliament and the UK Parliament
:53:36. > :53:41.because Professor Roy was setting out that tens of thousands of jobs
:53:42. > :53:49.could be affected. We are out of time. Will the SNP demand... Will be
:53:50. > :53:52.SNP demand along with people like Ed Miliband at Westminster and some
:53:53. > :53:56.conservatives that Parliament be given the right to decide what type
:53:57. > :54:00.of Brexit we are in for? Of course, and there has to be full
:54:01. > :54:05.Parliamentary scrutiny. I have put down an urgent question that Theresa
:54:06. > :54:08.May needs to come to the House tomorrow to talk about this
:54:09. > :54:10.triggering of article 50. We will have to leave it there, thank you
:54:11. > :54:11.both very much. The body responsible for protecting
:54:12. > :54:14.and regulating Scotland's crofting is embroiled in some dramatic
:54:15. > :54:17.internal politics of its own. pressure is increasing on the head
:54:18. > :54:21.of the Crofting Commission to resign after the Scottish Government
:54:22. > :54:33.became involved. Scotland has nearly 20,000 crofts
:54:34. > :54:38.overseen by the Crofting Commission. After suspending two local grazing
:54:39. > :54:41.committees in Lewis on the grounds of financial mismanagement it was
:54:42. > :54:44.forced into a U-turn. There were claims the commission was
:54:45. > :54:49.heavy-handed and may have acted illegally. The Scottish Government
:54:50. > :54:53.is now involved. It called on the commission and its convener, Colin
:54:54. > :54:57.Kennedy, to apologise. Last week Mr Kennedy walked out of the
:54:58. > :55:08.commissioners meeting. Those that remained issued that apology then
:55:09. > :55:10.passed a vote of in Mr Kennedy. The First Minister gave their take on
:55:11. > :55:12.events in Parliament earlier this week. I know crofting commissioners
:55:13. > :55:14.have unanimously called the convener to resign. The Scottish Government
:55:15. > :55:19.has requested more information in relation to the events. While the
:55:20. > :55:23.government would not ordinarily intervene in the operations of an
:55:24. > :55:28.independent statutory body, the legislation gives Scottish ministers
:55:29. > :55:32.power to act if required. MSPs are watching developments with interest.
:55:33. > :55:36.There is no doubt there has been fallout amongst commissioners caused
:55:37. > :55:40.by the behaviour of the convener of the Crofting Commission. This
:55:41. > :55:42.organisation needs a new convener and a reconstituted board with the
:55:43. > :55:47.ability to get back to doing what it is meant to do, work for crofters
:55:48. > :55:54.across Scotland. We understand Mr Kennedy has no plans to resign but
:55:55. > :55:55.would make no further comment. The implication is clear, will he jump
:55:56. > :55:57.or be pushed? a lawyer and blogger specialising
:55:58. > :56:07.in crofting matters. Well, the crofting commissioners
:56:08. > :56:13.have no confidence in their leader. He will not resign the Scottish
:56:14. > :56:17.have no confidence in their leader. Government has threatened to get
:56:18. > :56:23.involved, what is on? It all goes back to December last year when they
:56:24. > :56:39.decided to put out of office committee in Lewis. In 2016 they put
:56:40. > :56:43.out two other. -- two other committees. What I don't understand
:56:44. > :56:47.is that Mr Kennedy, the commissioner, is accused of issuing
:56:48. > :56:51.edicts over things like payments over common grazing, and people's
:56:52. > :56:56.backs are up about this, but how can he do that, surely the commissioners
:56:57. > :57:02.have to decide. The commission should decide. It looks as though he
:57:03. > :57:06.has been instrumental in pushing these issues forward. There are
:57:07. > :57:12.three main issues. The first one was the payment by the grazing committee
:57:13. > :57:18.to shareholders in common grazing is of money that had come into the
:57:19. > :57:22.grazing funds. His argument was the money needed to be paid immediately
:57:23. > :57:32.to the shareholders, and if monies were required back they would issue
:57:33. > :57:36.a levy on to the shareholders. Nowhere in the Lord does it say
:57:37. > :57:41.these payments had to be made, and indeed it didn't make logical or
:57:42. > :57:45.common sense to deal with it that way. Subsequently there were two
:57:46. > :57:51.other issues, one was that he was seeking to stop common grazing is
:57:52. > :57:57.committees receiving funding, grants from the government to assist in the
:57:58. > :58:02.maintenance of common grazing, and latterly there was an issue in
:58:03. > :58:07.registration where it was being said that common grazing could not be VAT
:58:08. > :58:12.registered whereas historically it always has been. What happened, at
:58:13. > :58:17.some point, the commissioners had a vote of no-confidence? That was just
:58:18. > :58:22.over a week ago, and that was on the back of Colin Kennedy walking out of
:58:23. > :58:25.a meeting. He closed the meeting and walked out on the basis that the
:58:26. > :58:30.commission from the Western Isles said he was no longer declaring an
:58:31. > :58:35.interest in the Western Isles cases, which he previously did, and now
:58:36. > :58:38.wanted to vote on any issues concerning the Western Isles. On the
:58:39. > :58:44.face of it you would think if the commissioners have no-confidence in
:58:45. > :58:47.has to go but he was elected. He was, and nothing in the law states
:58:48. > :58:54.if the commissioners have a vote of no confidence he must go. One would
:58:55. > :58:57.imagine that if all the commissioners are against you, if
:58:58. > :59:04.imagine that if all the the Scottish cup Max crofting
:59:05. > :59:09.Federation,, the NFU and the press are all saying it is time to go, it
:59:10. > :59:12.you would think, what is the point in clinging on here? The Scottish
:59:13. > :59:19.Government has threatened to get involved. What can they do? In terms
:59:20. > :59:24.of the Crofters Scotland act 1993 they have the power if they consider
:59:25. > :59:28.the Commissioner is unable or unfit to exercise the functions of the
:59:29. > :59:34.member or unsuitable to continue as a Member, they can then remove a
:59:35. > :59:40.Member from office. Just to give us a sense of what the background to
:59:41. > :59:43.this is, because it is complicated, the issue underlining this, is it to
:59:44. > :59:50.do with use of land and the fact that for example wind farms and
:59:51. > :59:55.housing want to commend, and it is about whether common ground is
:59:56. > :00:00.allocated to the community, funds from individuals... It is linked to
:00:01. > :00:04.funds coming into common grazing. As you mentioned wind farming, in
:00:05. > :00:08.recent times, the potential for larger sums of money to come into
:00:09. > :00:13.common grazing exists and it is linked to distribution of those
:00:14. > :00:16.monies. There an insistence on the part of the convener that those
:00:17. > :00:20.monies be paid out as soon as received, with no ability to hold
:00:21. > :00:25.onto the money and use it to spend on improvements within the common
:00:26. > :00:29.grazing. The Scottish Government said that was not the correct view
:00:30. > :00:33.at all. We have to leave it there, Brian Inkster, thank you very much.
:00:34. > :00:37.Well, earlier I spoke to Colin Kennedy on the phone from Coll.
:00:38. > :00:47.He is the Crofting Commission boss in the middle of this controversy.
:00:48. > :01:00.Will you stay in the post? I have no intention of resigning. Why not? As
:01:01. > :01:05.I understand, I believe the commission have acted wholly within
:01:06. > :01:11.the law at all times, and until such times as we have legal advice to the
:01:12. > :01:15.contrary, I will maintain my position. But the Scottish
:01:16. > :01:19.Government has said it has the power to get involved. If it does and says
:01:20. > :01:26.you have to go, you will have to go, won't you? That would be the case,
:01:27. > :01:29.yes. So just to be clear, is the Scottish Government says, given your
:01:30. > :01:33.commissioners have voted no confidence in you, we don't think
:01:34. > :01:48.you can stay in post, you will have to resign? That may be the case. Why
:01:49. > :01:50.are you so determined? You walked out of the meeting, didn't you, the
:01:51. > :01:53.other week? Why have you fallen out with all the commissioners? I didn't
:01:54. > :01:55.walk out, I formally declared the meeting closed in light of an
:01:56. > :02:01.advancement by the Commissioner supported out by the Deputy
:02:02. > :02:07.accountable officer that they obtain information from the standards
:02:08. > :02:12.commission I requested site of, which failed to materialise.
:02:13. > :02:16.Accordingly, given the nature of the business at hand, I have no
:02:17. > :02:21.alternative other than to formally close the meeting of the Crofting
:02:22. > :02:26.Commission -- I had no alternative. OK, but the commissioners have now
:02:27. > :02:30.said they have no confidence in you which is not brilliant from your
:02:31. > :02:35.point of view, is it? I am unaware of the commissioners saying they
:02:36. > :02:40.have no confidence in me. You are not aware of that? Correct. So as
:02:41. > :02:44.far as you are concerned, what, the Crofting Commission is carrying on
:02:45. > :02:52.as per normal? I would suggest at this moment the Crofting Commission
:02:53. > :02:55.conducted a meeting on the 28th of September which was in noncompliance
:02:56. > :03:01.are accordance with standing orders of the Crofting Commission,
:03:02. > :03:05.therefore in my view it would appear to be advisory. If they still have
:03:06. > :03:11.confidence in you why would they do that? I couldn't compact comment on
:03:12. > :03:17.what they do in an informal constitution. But they filed a
:03:18. > :03:26.meeting without you for reasons which are inexplicable. Correct. The
:03:27. > :03:29.substance of this is about... They allege you made various
:03:30. > :03:34.determinations about things like payments in the form of edicts that
:03:35. > :03:38.they weren't consulted on. Absolutely incorrect. At no time
:03:39. > :03:46.under my leadership have any decisions being taken without full
:03:47. > :03:52.endorsement of the board, and based on legal advice. And if I could
:03:53. > :03:56.comment, that prior to those decisions, the board minister on
:03:57. > :04:01.September 15, 2015, prior taking to those decisions, a formal request
:04:02. > :04:04.was made to the chief executive to obtain legal advice to support the
:04:05. > :04:08.papers presented to the board on which the board took the decision.
:04:09. > :04:11.Colin Kennedy, we have to leave it, thank you for joining us. Thank you.
:04:12. > :04:14.Now, four areas in Scotland have been selected to benefit
:04:15. > :04:16.from a new funding programme designed to stimulate
:04:17. > :04:19.The Scottish Government has allocated ?10 million to
:04:20. > :04:21.the new Local Economic Development Fund, with the bulk of the money
:04:22. > :04:26.When the financial crisis began in 2008, Hawick was quickly hit
:04:27. > :04:31.Like so many other towns across the country, its high street
:04:32. > :04:34.Our reporter Cameron Buttle has been to Hawick to see
:04:35. > :04:51.There is a saying here, a day out of Hawick is a day wasted. This is a
:04:52. > :04:55.passionate Borders town, passionate about its great history, passionate
:04:56. > :04:58.about tradition. But like so many other Scottish towns, its high
:04:59. > :05:03.street is really struggling. I walked down -- walked down Hawick
:05:04. > :05:07.high street this morning, 15 for sale or to let sign which gives you
:05:08. > :05:11.an indication of the pressures we have in our high street today. And
:05:12. > :05:16.there is a feeling something has to be done? Absolutely, there is a mood
:05:17. > :05:21.for people to come to Hawick. People living in the town want to see it
:05:22. > :05:26.regenerated, they want to see shops open and lights on. To help with
:05:27. > :05:29.that the town has to get more than ?3 million for regeneration projects
:05:30. > :05:35.from a new Scottish Government fund. I would like to see this money being
:05:36. > :05:38.spent encouraging new start-ups. It is important we channelled this
:05:39. > :05:45.money into encouraging people to start a new business. At the same
:05:46. > :05:48.time we must try to spend some of that money on protecting existing
:05:49. > :05:53.businesses as well. One new venture is the Hawick Paper, only eight
:05:54. > :05:55.editions in, it is seen as the vote of confidence in the ability of a
:05:56. > :06:00.town and its people to weather the of confidence in the ability of a
:06:01. > :06:04.bad times. There is a great sense of history and community. I think there
:06:05. > :06:09.are few places in Scotland with a sense of community Hawick has got.
:06:10. > :06:13.It really helps the town recover from economic blows, but having said
:06:14. > :06:18.that, it can only take you so far. There comes a point when you
:06:19. > :06:23.Government assistance to bring about some sort of recovery, and that's
:06:24. > :06:30.what we have now. It has been a long time coming, you feel? Far too long.
:06:31. > :06:35.I remember when Pringle shut, that was nine or ten years ago now, and
:06:36. > :06:38.ever since, the town has been waiting and hoping for a new
:06:39. > :06:44.industry to commit to Hawick and it has never happened. Too late? I
:06:45. > :06:48.don't think is too late, we certainly have a workforce here in
:06:49. > :06:53.Hawick who can turn their hand to most things, it is just getting that
:06:54. > :06:57.new industry into the town. I know it's not easy but will make a hell
:06:58. > :07:01.of a difference to the town. Four communities will benefit from the
:07:02. > :07:06.Local Economic Development Fund, a total of ?10 million. Hawick will
:07:07. > :07:12.get the most common web than ?3.5 million, Fife will get more than
:07:13. > :07:19.?2.5 million, Clackmannanshire ?2 million and Irving more than ?1.5
:07:20. > :07:24.million. It is targeted money, but more widely we are trying to give a
:07:25. > :07:27.stimulus to capital funding to get the economy going, and we would
:07:28. > :07:32.certainly encourage the UK Government to do as much as it can
:07:33. > :07:38.in the Autumn Statement to expand spending in the economy and drive
:07:39. > :07:42.growth at this time. While the money has been welcomed, there are
:07:43. > :07:43.concerns about the timescale of the funding allocation and its long-term
:07:44. > :07:51.impact. Whatever they do how are we going to
:07:52. > :08:00.ensure for example if business hubs are created I will be ensure that
:08:01. > :08:03.they are funded in the long term to entice new industries to that time?
:08:04. > :08:06.We could go into it scenario where the money is pumped into these hubs
:08:07. > :08:10.but going forward who will pay to ensure that they are financed to
:08:11. > :08:14.attract the new jobs and investment I think there are concerns about
:08:15. > :08:18.whatever project are set how they are funded in the the long term.
:08:19. > :08:22.whatever project are set how they Hawick there is a sense of hope that
:08:23. > :08:26.they have been through the worst. And there are signs that some
:08:27. > :08:30.businesses are doing well well from others living in. People in Hawick
:08:31. > :08:36.have had their fair share of knock backs over the years. We are very
:08:37. > :08:40.strong proud community. But when we see what is going on in commercial
:08:41. > :08:46.Road we have got a new Hotel that opened stores last week the signs
:08:47. > :08:50.are encouraging. The seeds of prosperity are there but we need to
:08:51. > :08:52.focus at this particular time on a high street and do what we can do
:08:53. > :08:54.help the businesses. It's time to look back at the events
:08:55. > :08:57.of the past week and see what's I'm joined now by the journalists
:08:58. > :09:10.Lindsay McIntosh and Kevin McKenna. Let's talk about Europe. We are
:09:11. > :09:16.supposed to have great clarity where we not this week because of the Tory
:09:17. > :09:23.party conference. Is it any clearer? It is not. I like to Stephen's joke
:09:24. > :09:27.about it being a dog's Brexit. But he does have a very good point. As
:09:28. > :09:31.you say however many days at the Tory party conference and we seem to
:09:32. > :09:36.have mixed messages about we seem to be heading towards a Hard Brexit but
:09:37. > :09:39.the team to beat dissenting voices that the Tory party. It is unclear
:09:40. > :09:44.whether legally or politically we need a boat at Westminster about the
:09:45. > :09:46.type of Brexit we have. The one thing that is reasonably clear is
:09:47. > :09:50.that the Scottish Parliament will not be able to block it they can
:09:51. > :09:54.make an offer a lot of noise about it and store up a constitutional.
:09:55. > :09:58.But, realistically they will not block at. We urge hearing the
:09:59. > :10:01.arguments. Iain Duncan Smith seeing two and revealed that the single
:10:02. > :10:06.market as part of Europe and we voted to leave Europe therefore we
:10:07. > :10:12.voted to leave the single market. That was not during the referendum.
:10:13. > :10:17.No. And it is not what Adam Tomkins with about ten minutes ago. It is
:10:18. > :10:22.not been part of the aspirations of the Brexiteers since. It is as clear
:10:23. > :10:27.as mud, and it all feeds into feeling of the that they
:10:28. > :10:31.Conservatives are making it up as they go along on Brexit. But it is
:10:32. > :10:36.great it is joy for the SNP. They are heading into a conference this
:10:37. > :10:39.Thursday, their annual autumn conference in Glasgow where
:10:40. > :10:43.previously they would have expected to come under some pressure from the
:10:44. > :10:48.fundamentalist wing as to when Nicola is going to announce the date
:10:49. > :10:53.for a second referendum if that is what she wants to do. But this
:10:54. > :10:56.basically right her speech and writes the speech for just about
:10:57. > :11:01.every other Cabinet minister in Scotland how the Tories are in
:11:02. > :11:06.abject confusion three months after the 23rd of June on what Brexit
:11:07. > :11:09.means, when you can't even get the new people in the party agreeing
:11:10. > :11:15.what the policy is what the discussions are going to be and for
:11:16. > :11:19.heaven 's sake whether at they are going to have... Be able to debate
:11:20. > :11:25.it or be able to vote on some parts of it and if they were what parts it
:11:26. > :11:29.is an art confusion. I wonder if it is the case as Kevin suggests that
:11:30. > :11:32.the pressure will be entirely of Nicola Sturgeon. Presumably there
:11:33. > :11:36.will be a wing of the SNP saying that we want an independence
:11:37. > :11:40.referendum and we wanted it now, or at least one it is going to be. I
:11:41. > :11:43.think there is always going to be an element of the assembly that is
:11:44. > :11:47.going to want a referendum tomorrow. But I think it is right that they
:11:48. > :11:51.can over Brexit means there is a very clear line that Nicola Sturgeon
:11:52. > :11:54.can take which is, look we do not know what the constitutional
:11:55. > :11:58.position of the UK is going to be for at least two years come next
:11:59. > :12:03.year so let's wait until we get some clarity before we hold another vote.
:12:04. > :12:17.And we have seen some quite senior voices in the
:12:18. > :12:20.SNP that are moving towards that position. You know, think that we
:12:21. > :12:23.need to push those further down the road. Not least because they clearly
:12:24. > :12:26.don't have the majority for it at the moment and it would be self
:12:27. > :12:29.sabotage to go for it at the moment. Kevin, I get your point that it
:12:30. > :12:32.takes the pressure of them on one sense but the event are just putting
:12:33. > :12:35.them by, to some extent at the moment. There is all this debate is
:12:36. > :12:38.not really involved in and they are left on the sidelines saying if we
:12:39. > :12:41.do not get what we want we will have another independence referendum. Yes
:12:42. > :12:45.they came out of the traps immediately after the 20. Nicola
:12:46. > :12:47.Sturgeon and her party Nicola Sturgeon looked very statesman-like.
:12:48. > :12:52.She seemed to be offering leadership and she was talking about
:12:53. > :12:55.independence and people in England were saying in the midst of all this
:12:56. > :12:58.confusion this woman seems to know what she is doing this letter from
:12:59. > :13:05.Scotland. But in three months that has the Volvo. You're absolutely
:13:06. > :13:10.right. Where there is confusion at the upper echelons of the
:13:11. > :13:15.Conservatives about Europe there seems to be a degree of confusion in
:13:16. > :13:21.the same areas of the SNP as to how do we make something of this what...
:13:22. > :13:26.How is this an opportunity for us to advance the case for independence?
:13:27. > :13:30.And if so do we do it now or wait far closer to the day Mr Mark
:13:31. > :13:34.useful, in that case Lindsay would be if they got some commitments from
:13:35. > :13:39.anybody seen your in Europe on anything. They need lot of
:13:40. > :13:42.commitments from anybody seen you in Europe to make anything happen there
:13:43. > :13:46.and there was a big boost from Nicola Sturgeon are laid to try to
:13:47. > :13:50.get those commitments and they do not seem to have been forthcoming. I
:13:51. > :13:53.mean, let's be honest in Europe we have got a number of national
:13:54. > :13:55.elections we have got Brexit Scotland is Lord down the list.
:13:56. > :13:57.Thank you very much indeed. I'll be back at the
:13:58. > :14:01.same time next week.