:00:36. > :00:39.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:41.Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
:00:42. > :00:44."just about managing" - so should she reverse
:00:45. > :00:47.George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
:00:48. > :00:53.Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
:00:54. > :00:57.says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
:00:58. > :01:02.So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
:01:03. > :01:06.Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
:01:07. > :01:10.into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
:01:11. > :01:14.Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?
:01:15. > :01:19.We'll be asking the Scottish Government's Higher Education
:01:20. > :01:22.minister how she plans to ensure students from poorer backgrounds
:01:23. > :01:34.And haunting the studio on this Halloween weekend,
:01:35. > :01:36.the most terrifying political panel in the business -
:01:37. > :01:40.Tim 'Ghost' Shipman, 'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and
:01:41. > :01:48.First this morning, two new models of car to be built,
:01:49. > :01:51.securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant in Sunderland and a further 28,000
:01:52. > :01:58.The news from Nissan on Thursday was seized on by Leave campaigners
:01:59. > :02:00.as evidence that the British economy is in rude health
:02:01. > :02:04.This morning, the Business Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked
:02:05. > :02:08.what assurances were given to the Japanese firm's bosses
:02:09. > :02:14.Well, it's in no-one's the interest for there to be tariff
:02:15. > :02:19.barriers to the continent and vice versa.
:02:20. > :02:23.So, what I said is that our objective would be to ensure that we
:02:24. > :02:28.have continued access to the markets in Europe and vice versa, without
:02:29. > :02:32.tariffs and without bureaucratic impediments.
:02:33. > :02:35.That is how we will approach those negotiations.
:02:36. > :02:38.We're joined now from Newcastle by the Shadow Business
:02:39. > :02:51.Welcome to the programme. Labour has been a bit sceptical about this
:02:52. > :02:55.Nissan decision. Can we begin by making it clear just what a great
:02:56. > :03:01.achievement this is, above all for the workers of Sunderland who have
:03:02. > :03:05.some of the highest productivity in the world, have never been on strike
:03:06. > :03:12.for 30 years, and produce cars of incredible quality. This is their
:03:13. > :03:15.victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are absolutely right. The Nissan plant
:03:16. > :03:20.in Sunderland is among the most productive in the world. The workers
:03:21. > :03:27.of Nissan are amongst the most productive as well. And it's really
:03:28. > :03:29.a victory for them and for the trade unions and the business
:03:30. > :03:32.organisations, and everybody who campaigned to make sure that the
:03:33. > :03:40.government couldn't ignore their future. It's our future. I'm the MP
:03:41. > :03:43.for Newcastle. It makes a huge difference to the region. We are a
:03:44. > :03:46.region that still likes to make things that work. It is a huge part
:03:47. > :03:53.of our advanced manufacturing sector. So it's really something we
:03:54. > :03:58.welcome as well as the job security. I'm glad we have got that on the
:03:59. > :04:02.record from the Labour shadow business secretary. But your Shadow
:04:03. > :04:06.Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims the government is ignoring
:04:07. > :04:11.manufacturers and cares only about a small banking elite. In what way is
:04:12. > :04:15.safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs in the North safeguarding a
:04:16. > :04:20.financial elite? As I said, we're really pleased that the campaigning
:04:21. > :04:23.by trade unions and the workforce, and business organisations, meant
:04:24. > :04:27.the government felt they couldn't ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be
:04:28. > :04:31.clear that we want that kind of job security for all of those working in
:04:32. > :04:36.manufacturing and in other sectors as well. And sweetheart deals for
:04:37. > :04:42.one company, no matter how important they are, that does not an
:04:43. > :04:49.industrial strategy make. Why'd you say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg
:04:50. > :04:51.Clark told the BBC this morning that what was assured to Nissan is an
:04:52. > :04:56.assurance he gives to the whole industrial sector? I was really
:04:57. > :05:02.pleased to see Greg Clark felt he had to say something, even though
:05:03. > :05:07.it's sad that we having our industrial strategy, you like, or
:05:08. > :05:12.our approach to Brexit delivered piecemeal to the media rather than
:05:13. > :05:16.to the British people and Nissan, actually. But he want published the
:05:17. > :05:20.letter. He said he has told us what is in the letter and that
:05:21. > :05:25.reassurances given on training, on science and on supporting the supply
:05:26. > :05:31.chain for the automated sector. You must be in favour all -- of all of
:05:32. > :05:36.that? We are in favour of an industrial strategy. Greg Clark,
:05:37. > :05:42.unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say industrial strategy. I'm still
:05:43. > :05:47.puzzling to find out what it is you disagree with. Let me put the
:05:48. > :05:53.question. You said the assurances he has given to Nissan are available to
:05:54. > :05:58.the car manufacturing sector in general and indeed to industry in
:05:59. > :06:03.general. What is your problem with that? Two things. Let him publish
:06:04. > :06:09.the letter so we can see that, let him have the transparency he's
:06:10. > :06:13.pretending to offer. But also, we need an industrial strategy that
:06:14. > :06:20.joined. He talked about electric joined. He talked about electric
:06:21. > :06:25.cars and supporting green cars. That was in regard to Nissan. At the same
:06:26. > :06:30.time the government has slashed support for other areas of green
:06:31. > :06:37.technology. So what is it? That is not to do with the Nissan deal.
:06:38. > :06:40.Labour implied at some stage there was some financial inducement, some
:06:41. > :06:45.secret bribes, that doesn't seem to be the case. You are not claiming
:06:46. > :06:49.that any more -- any more. Then you claimed it was a sweetheart deal for
:06:50. > :06:57.one company. That turns out not to be the case. What criticism are you
:06:58. > :07:02.left with on this Nissan deal? I would be really surprised if all
:07:03. > :07:06.that Nissan got was the reassurances that Greg Clark is shared with us.
:07:07. > :07:12.He didn't answer the question of what happens if we can't get
:07:13. > :07:15.continued tariff free access to the single market, if we are not within
:07:16. > :07:21.the single market or the Customs Union. Do you really think a
:07:22. > :07:25.negotiator like Nissan, who are very good at negotiating, they would have
:07:26. > :07:30.excepted making this significant investment without some further
:07:31. > :07:34.reassurances? Do you think there is some kind of financial bride and if
:07:35. > :07:38.so what is the evidence? I would like to see the letter published and
:07:39. > :07:43.I would also like to understand what would happen... There are 27
:07:44. > :07:49.countries which need to agree with the deal we have from Brexit. What
:07:50. > :07:54.will Nissan, how will Nissan remain competitive? How will the automotive
:07:55. > :07:59.industry remain competitive? Greg Clark says he reassured them on
:08:00. > :08:07.that. But how will that be so if we do not get access? We haven't heard
:08:08. > :08:11.anything about that. He talks about reassurances given to Nissan. We
:08:12. > :08:15.need to make -- to know where we're going to make sure Brexit is in the
:08:16. > :08:19.interest of all workers, not only those who work for a Nissan and not
:08:20. > :08:25.only those who can get the attention of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan
:08:26. > :08:29.that Britain would remain a competitive place to do business.
:08:30. > :08:32.That was the main assurance he gave them. He would help with skills and
:08:33. > :08:38.infrastructure and all the rest. Since you are -- intend to repeal
:08:39. > :08:42.the trade union laws that have made strikes in Britain largely a thing
:08:43. > :08:44.of the past, and you plan to raise corporation tax, you couldn't give
:08:45. > :08:51.Nissan the same assurance, could you? We could absolutely give Nissan
:08:52. > :08:54.the assurance that we will be, our vision of the future of the UK, is
:08:55. > :09:07.based on having a strong manufacturing sector. Repealing
:09:08. > :09:10.trade union laws? As we have seen at Nissan, the industrial sector is
:09:11. > :09:16.dependent on having highly trained, well skilled workers. -- highly
:09:17. > :09:22.skilled, well-trained. You don't have that by getting -- having an
:09:23. > :09:26.aggressive policy and trade union laws or by slashing corporation tax
:09:27. > :09:29.and not supporting manufacturing investment. Remember, the last
:09:30. > :09:35.government took away the Manufacturing allowances which
:09:36. > :09:39.supported Manufacturing and slashed corporation tax. That is their
:09:40. > :09:45.solution. It is a low tax, low skill economy they want.
:09:46. > :09:49.Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you. I'm grateful for you joining us.
:09:50. > :09:57.I'm still struggling to see what is left of Labour's criticism? Yeah,
:09:58. > :10:01.except for this. This was a valid point she just made. What we know
:10:02. > :10:07.for sure is that Greg Clark could say to Nissan, my aim is to get
:10:08. > :10:11.tariff free deal. There is no way he could guarantee that. None of us
:10:12. > :10:19.know that. I don't think that was enough. I think clearly there was a
:10:20. > :10:23.more detailed package involving training and other things. He has
:10:24. > :10:27.acknowledged this, albeit we do not know the precise mechanism. What I
:10:28. > :10:30.think is interesting about this is if you reverse what happened this
:10:31. > :10:33.week, at a time when the government says Britain is open for business
:10:34. > :10:38.and it is going to have an industrial strategy, so far it is a
:10:39. > :10:43.bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't made this commitment. Imagine what
:10:44. > :10:46.would have happened? It is an impossible scenario. The government
:10:47. > :10:52.seems to me was obliged to make sure this didn't happen. Let's not forget
:10:53. > :10:56.Nissan has invested hundreds of millions in the north-east. It has
:10:57. > :11:00.been a huge success story. When I spoke to workers from Nissan, they
:11:01. > :11:04.were so proud because they went to Japan to teach the Japanese had to
:11:05. > :11:08.be more productive. The idea that Nissan was just going to walk away
:11:09. > :11:13.from this given its track record, its importance, wasn't really
:11:14. > :11:17.credible. The government had some bargaining chips. Absolutely, of
:11:18. > :11:22.course they weren't going to walk away. The majority of people in the
:11:23. > :11:27.area in which Nissan is braced -- based, voted for Brexit. Nissan
:11:28. > :11:30.knows it is in a powerful position because it is an emotive sector.
:11:31. > :11:34.Clearly the government didn't want to have some big showdown. I
:11:35. > :11:40.honestly don't think this is a smoking gun. The Labour Shadow
:11:41. > :11:43.minister really struggled to articulate what exactly she thinks
:11:44. > :11:48.the government is hiding. I think the reassurances were given were
:11:49. > :11:51.pretty anodyne, really. They were anodyne and general. And what Greg
:11:52. > :11:55.Clark was setting out was an objective and he made the right
:11:56. > :11:59.noises, and Nissan exercised its right to sabre rattle. It does have
:12:00. > :12:04.a history of doing that. The one thing that would now be clear given
:12:05. > :12:07.Greg Clark's performance this morning on the BBC, is that if we
:12:08. > :12:12.were to discover some kind of financial incentive directly linked
:12:13. > :12:17.to this investment, not more for skills or infrastructure, that is
:12:18. > :12:20.fine, but some direct financial investment, compensation for
:12:21. > :12:23.tariffs, which would be illegal under World Trade Organisation
:12:24. > :12:28.rules, what you might call a financial bride, the sect -- the
:12:29. > :12:33.business Secretary's position would be untenable? He would be in a very
:12:34. > :12:37.difficult position indeed. Just released the letter. There is
:12:38. > :12:40.nothing to hide. Put it out there. The most revealing thing is that
:12:41. > :12:45.people are getting wildly excited about the fact Greg Clark announced
:12:46. > :12:50.Britain's negotiating position would be that we would like tariff free
:12:51. > :12:53.trade with Europe. This is regarded as an insight into what this comment
:12:54. > :12:55.is doing and it says a great deal about how little we have been told
:12:56. > :13:01.in Parliament and the media about what they are up. Do you think it is
:13:02. > :13:08.exciting we are going for tariff free trade? We're easily excited
:13:09. > :13:13.these days. We don't know. This is where these things are at such a
:13:14. > :13:16.tentative phase. We don't know how the rest of the European Union is
:13:17. > :13:24.going to respond to Britain's negotiating hand. We know Britain
:13:25. > :13:30.once the best of everything, please. It is a starting point. But that is
:13:31. > :13:31.not how it is going to end up. We are getting wider than that. We have
:13:32. > :13:33.will have to see. Now, Universal Credit,
:13:34. > :13:35.a single payment made to welfare claimants that would roll together
:13:36. > :13:38.a plethora of benefits whilst encouraging people into work
:13:39. > :13:41.by making work pay. But have cuts to the flagship
:13:42. > :13:43.welfare scheme reduced work incentives and hit the incomes
:13:44. > :13:48.of the least well-off? Well, some of the government's
:13:49. > :13:50.own MPs think so, and, as Mark Lobel reports,
:13:51. > :13:57.want the cuts reversed. Theresa May says she wants
:13:58. > :14:00.a country that works for everyone, that's on the side
:14:01. > :14:04.of ordinary, working people. It means never writing off people
:14:05. > :14:07.who can work and consigning them to a life on benefits,
:14:08. > :14:10.but giving them the chance to go out and earn a living and to enjoy
:14:11. > :14:13.the dignity that comes But now some in her party
:14:14. > :14:19.are worried that the low earners will be hit by changes
:14:20. > :14:24.to Universal Credit benefit system originally set up to encourage
:14:25. > :14:26.more people into work. We also need to focus tax credits
:14:27. > :14:29.and Universal Credit Concern centred on the Government's
:14:30. > :14:36.decision in the July 2015 budget to find ?3 billion worth of savings
:14:37. > :14:45.from the Universal Credit bill. Conservative MP Heidi Allen
:14:46. > :14:48.is working on a campaign to get MPs in her party to urge
:14:49. > :14:56.the Prime Minister to think again. I want her to understand for herself
:14:57. > :14:58.what the outcomes might be if we press ahead
:14:59. > :15:00.with the Universal Credit, Do you think Theresa May, right now,
:15:01. > :15:05.understands what you understand? To be fair, unless you really
:15:06. > :15:07.get into the detail, and I have through my work
:15:08. > :15:10.on the Work and Pensions Select Committee, I don't
:15:11. > :15:12.think anybody does. Independent economic analysts
:15:13. > :15:18.at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan that cuts to Universal Credit weaken
:15:19. > :15:22.incentives to work. One of the key parts
:15:23. > :15:24.of the Universal Credit system That is how much you can
:15:25. > :15:28.earn before your credit As the Government has
:15:29. > :15:31.sought to save money, both under the Coalition and now
:15:32. > :15:33.they Conservative Government, both under the Coalition and now
:15:34. > :15:35.the Conservative Government, that work allowance has been cut,
:15:36. > :15:38.time and time again. The biggest cuts happened
:15:39. > :15:40.in the summer budget of 2015. That basically reduces the amount
:15:41. > :15:43.of earnings you get to keep It weakens the incentive people have
:15:44. > :15:46.to move into work. What do changes to the Universal
:15:47. > :15:48.Credit system mean? The Resolution Foundation think-tank
:15:49. > :15:51.has crunched the numbers. If you compare what would have
:15:52. > :15:55.happened before the July 2015 summer budget to what will happen by 2020,
:15:56. > :15:59.even if you take into account gains in the National Living Wage
:16:00. > :16:01.and income tax cuts, recipients will be hit
:16:02. > :16:06.by annual deductions. Couples and parents would receive,
:16:07. > :16:09.on average, ?1000 less. A dual-earning couple with two
:16:10. > :16:11.children under four, with one partner working full-time
:16:12. > :16:14.on ?10.50 an hour and the other working part-time on the minimum
:16:15. > :16:17.wage for around 20 hours a week, they would
:16:18. > :16:24.receive ?1800 less. Hit most by the changes
:16:25. > :16:27.would be a single parent with a child under four,
:16:28. > :16:28.working full-time I think, if I'm honest,
:16:29. > :16:42.it is unrealistic, given the economic climate,
:16:43. > :16:45.to expect everything to be reversed. What I would like to see
:16:46. > :16:51.is an increase in the work allowances to those people
:16:52. > :16:54.who will be hardest hit. That is single parents and second
:16:55. > :16:57.earners hoping to return to work, because they are the people we need
:16:58. > :16:59.to absolutely make The Sunday Politics understands that
:17:00. > :17:04.about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs are pushing for changes ahead
:17:05. > :17:08.of the Autumn Statement. A former cabinet minister told us
:17:09. > :17:11.that they believed further impact analysis should be done to find out
:17:12. > :17:14.if any mitigation measures Former Work and Pensions Secretary
:17:15. > :17:20.Iain Duncan Smith, an architect of the system, now says
:17:21. > :17:25.the cuts should be reversed. But his former department has told
:17:26. > :17:29.us that it has no plans to revisit the work allowance changes announced
:17:30. > :17:34.in the budget last year. What I would say to Heidi Allen
:17:35. > :17:38.and IDS, they got it right the first time and they should stick
:17:39. > :17:41.to the vote they cast last year, because these reforms actually
:17:42. > :17:42.do make sense. What interests me is the fact
:17:43. > :17:45.we are trying to move people off welfare into work,
:17:46. > :17:48.we are raising the wages people earn by massively increasing
:17:49. > :17:50.the minimum wage and this People are coming off
:17:51. > :17:53.welfare and into work. Campaigners are pushing for savings
:17:54. > :17:56.to come from other areas to relieve The other thing we have to start
:17:57. > :18:02.looking at is the triple Financially it has been a great
:18:03. > :18:06.policy, and it was absolutely right that we lifted pensioners
:18:07. > :18:08.who were significantly behind, for many years, in terms of income
:18:09. > :18:11.levels, but they have I think it is time for us to look
:18:12. > :18:16.at that policy again, because is costing us an awful
:18:17. > :18:18.lot of money. With just over three weeks to wait
:18:19. > :18:21.until the Conservative leadership's new economic plan is unveiled
:18:22. > :18:24.in the Autumn Statement, its top team is under pressure
:18:25. > :18:28.from within its own ranks to use it And I'm joined now by former Work
:18:29. > :18:44.and Pensions Secretary, Welcome back to the programme.
:18:45. > :18:49.Theresa May said she is on the side of the just managing, the working
:18:50. > :18:53.poor. But they are about to be hit from all sides. Their modest living
:18:54. > :18:56.standards are going to be squeezed as inflation overtakes pay rises,
:18:57. > :19:00.they will be further squeezed because top-up benefits in work are
:19:01. > :19:04.frozen. Incentives to work are going to be reduced by the cuts in
:19:05. > :19:10.universal benefits. So much for being on the side of those just
:19:11. > :19:17.managing? Theresa was right to focus on this group. The definition has to
:19:18. > :19:20.be the bottom half, in economic terms, of the social structure. It
:19:21. > :19:24.doesn't look good for them? This is the point I am making, it is an
:19:25. > :19:27.opportunity to put some of this right. One of the reasons I resigned
:19:28. > :19:30.in March is because I felt the direction of travel we had been
:19:31. > :19:34.going in had been to take far too much money out of that group of
:19:35. > :19:38.people when there are other areas which, if you need to make some of
:19:39. > :19:42.those savings, you can. The key bit is that the group needs to be helped
:19:43. > :19:46.through into work and encouraged to stay in work. There was a report
:19:47. > :19:50.done with the IFS, when we were there, at Universal Credit. It said
:19:51. > :19:55.Universal Credit rolled out, as it should have been before the cuts,
:19:56. > :19:59.people would be much more likely to stay in work longer and earn more
:20:00. > :20:04.money. It is a net positive, but that is now called into question.
:20:05. > :20:07.Let's unpick some of the detail, but first, do you accept the words of
:20:08. > :20:12.David Willets? It says on the basis of the things I read out to you that
:20:13. > :20:20.the just managing face a significant and painful cut in real terms if we
:20:21. > :20:27.continue on the way we are going. I do, in essence. That is the reason
:20:28. > :20:32.why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised that issue as well, that we got the
:20:33. > :20:35.balance wrong. It is right that pensioners get to a certain point,
:20:36. > :20:41.when they are on a level par, doing the right thing over five years.
:20:42. > :20:49.Staying with that process has cost us ?18 billion extra this year, in
:20:50. > :20:54.total. It will go on costing another 5 billion. Then there is the issue
:20:55. > :20:57.of tax allowances. I want to remind you and viewers what David Cameron
:20:58. > :21:04.told the Conservative conference in 2009. If you are a single mother
:21:05. > :21:09.with two children, earning ?150 a week, the withdrawal of your
:21:10. > :21:15.benefits and the additional taxes that you pay me on that for every
:21:16. > :21:22.extra you earn, you keep just 4p. What kind of incentive is that? 30
:21:23. > :21:29.years ago, this party won and election fighting against 98% tax
:21:30. > :21:35.rates for the Rex richest. I want us today to show even more anger about
:21:36. > :21:41.96% tax rates for the very poorest in our country. Real anger, and
:21:42. > :21:47.effective rate of over 90%. Universal Credit reduces that. Some
:21:48. > :21:52.will still face, as they lose benefits and pay tax, a marginal
:21:53. > :21:56.rate of over 75%. That is still too high? Yes, it is the collision
:21:57. > :22:00.between those going into work at the moment they start paying tax. A
:22:01. > :22:06.racial Universal Credit is set at 65%. You can call that the base
:22:07. > :22:11.marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will face 75%? That is the point about
:22:12. > :22:15.why the allowances are so important. The point about the allowances which
:22:16. > :22:19.viewers might not fully understand is that it was set, as part of
:22:20. > :22:22.Universal Credit, to allow you to get certain people, with certain
:22:23. > :22:29.difficulties, as they cross into work, to retain more benefit before
:22:30. > :22:33.it is tapered away as they go up in hours. A lone parent, who might have
:22:34. > :22:36.various issues, you want her to have a bigger incentive than a single
:22:37. > :22:40.person that does not have the same commitments. It is structured so
:22:41. > :22:43.that somebody who has difficulty going to work, they all have
:22:44. > :22:45.slightly different rates. What happened is that last year a
:22:46. > :22:48.decision was taken to reduce tax decision was taken to reduce tax
:22:49. > :22:52.credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe,
:22:53. > :22:58.given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point
:22:59. > :23:01.where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,
:23:02. > :23:06.it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the
:23:07. > :23:10.summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise
:23:11. > :23:13.the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being
:23:14. > :23:19.higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the
:23:20. > :23:21.consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take
:23:22. > :23:25.collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,
:23:26. > :23:28.but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.
:23:29. > :23:32.There was another attempt before the spending review last year to
:23:33. > :23:37.increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed
:23:38. > :23:41.to stop that. I'm Sibley saying, what we made as a decision last
:23:42. > :23:46.year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of
:23:47. > :23:50.that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if
:23:51. > :23:54.we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is
:23:55. > :23:57.singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the
:23:58. > :24:02.paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of
:24:03. > :24:09.the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a
:24:10. > :24:14.diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate
:24:15. > :24:19.will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I
:24:20. > :24:23.will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you
:24:24. > :24:26.put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed
:24:27. > :24:31.it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed
:24:32. > :24:34.circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne
:24:35. > :24:40.introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe
:24:41. > :24:43.so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending. I
:24:44. > :24:47.don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax
:24:48. > :24:55.threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is
:24:56. > :25:01.in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,
:25:02. > :25:06.and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to
:25:07. > :25:10.improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green
:25:11. > :25:13.paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes
:25:14. > :25:17.necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be
:25:18. > :25:20.done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work
:25:21. > :25:24.and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort
:25:25. > :25:30.our people that live in poverty, Universal Credit. We need to make
:25:31. > :25:33.sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what
:25:34. > :25:37.you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would
:25:38. > :25:43.that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on
:25:44. > :25:50.in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would
:25:51. > :25:53.it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is,
:25:54. > :25:58.first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where
:25:59. > :26:02.they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the
:26:03. > :26:07.re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the
:26:08. > :26:12.IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,
:26:13. > :26:15.and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,
:26:16. > :26:19.because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less
:26:20. > :26:25.incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We
:26:26. > :26:29.don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I
:26:30. > :26:38.would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.
:26:39. > :26:42.-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would
:26:43. > :26:49.prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold
:26:50. > :26:55.razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,
:26:56. > :26:57.getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal
:26:58. > :27:01.Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written
:27:02. > :27:05.by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic
:27:06. > :27:09.and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that
:27:10. > :27:16.people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take
:27:17. > :27:22.on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 65%?
:27:23. > :27:27.This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that
:27:28. > :27:32.enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five
:27:33. > :27:34.deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to
:27:35. > :27:41.Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,
:27:42. > :27:44.genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to
:27:45. > :27:48.make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think
:27:49. > :27:54.she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have
:27:55. > :27:57.a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto
:27:58. > :28:03.commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the
:28:04. > :28:05.personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to
:28:06. > :28:11.an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock
:28:12. > :28:17.that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?
:28:18. > :28:21.What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now
:28:22. > :28:24.the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations.
:28:25. > :28:28.Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as
:28:29. > :28:35.a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.
:28:36. > :28:39.It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about
:28:40. > :28:44.ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but
:28:45. > :28:47.after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and
:28:48. > :28:52.allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the
:28:53. > :28:56.triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under
:28:57. > :29:00.pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money
:29:01. > :29:04.out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on
:29:05. > :29:08.the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are
:29:09. > :29:11.up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by
:29:12. > :29:16.Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay
:29:17. > :29:28.for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock
:29:29. > :29:32.and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?
:29:33. > :29:34.As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the
:29:35. > :29:37.intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.
:29:38. > :29:39.Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -
:29:40. > :29:42.who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.
:29:43. > :29:45.That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took
:29:46. > :29:48.against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist
:29:49. > :29:52.Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November
:29:53. > :29:55.2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council
:29:56. > :29:57.of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British
:29:58. > :30:03.In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker
:30:04. > :30:06.who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.
:30:07. > :30:09.From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been
:30:10. > :30:13.involved in a number of community organisations, including
:30:14. > :30:16.the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,
:30:17. > :30:21.Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education
:30:22. > :30:23.and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.
:30:24. > :30:29.But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called
:30:30. > :30:32.Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local
:30:33. > :30:35.community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences
:30:36. > :30:40.he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.
:30:41. > :30:43.The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally
:30:44. > :30:46.outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses
:30:47. > :30:49.terrorists - as particularly sinister.
:30:50. > :30:52.The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise
:30:53. > :30:58.Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that
:30:59. > :31:02.Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.
:31:03. > :31:06.We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer
:31:07. > :31:07.on their Religious Education Committee.
:31:08. > :31:09.The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that
:31:10. > :31:14.Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group
:31:15. > :31:24.in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.
:31:25. > :31:28.I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam
:31:29. > :31:35.Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a
:31:36. > :31:41.statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject
:31:42. > :31:43.the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and
:31:44. > :31:50.unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam.
:31:51. > :31:54.What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At
:31:55. > :31:58.the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he
:31:59. > :32:03.belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque
:32:04. > :32:09.would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be
:32:10. > :32:12.saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and
:32:13. > :32:17.extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very
:32:18. > :32:24.important decision and a very important judgment by the judge.
:32:25. > :32:28.First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer
:32:29. > :32:33.of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of
:32:34. > :32:37.things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand
:32:38. > :32:44.by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody
:32:45. > :32:48.who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential
:32:49. > :32:53.libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and
:32:54. > :32:58.people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's
:32:59. > :33:02.some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who
:33:03. > :33:06.promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a
:33:07. > :33:10.step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing
:33:11. > :33:19.within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really
:33:20. > :33:24.concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were
:33:25. > :33:31.consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What
:33:32. > :33:40.is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It
:33:41. > :33:43.comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for
:33:44. > :33:52.them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist
:33:53. > :33:55.to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a
:33:56. > :33:58.revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview. And
:33:59. > :34:06.then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.
:34:07. > :34:09.We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,
:34:10. > :34:14.growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political
:34:15. > :34:19.ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular
:34:20. > :34:25.problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the
:34:26. > :34:27.theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that
:34:28. > :34:32.excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good
:34:33. > :34:36.to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi
:34:37. > :34:44.problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of
:34:45. > :34:49.mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on
:34:50. > :34:54.the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll
:34:55. > :35:00.and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are
:35:01. > :35:05.speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we
:35:06. > :35:09.have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in
:35:10. > :35:13.prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But
:35:14. > :35:17.there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will
:35:18. > :35:22.show one face to the community because they actually need that for
:35:23. > :35:25.a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to
:35:26. > :35:30.operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their
:35:31. > :35:35.constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these
:35:36. > :35:37.people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.
:35:38. > :35:44.people believe. It is an increasing And we're going to carry on seeing
:35:45. > :35:49.it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque stuck by him, but given the clarity
:35:50. > :35:52.of the judge's ruling, are you surprised that the Metropolitan
:35:53. > :35:56.police would wish to continue with Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm
:35:57. > :35:59.absolutely shocked that that decision. What Uzzy going to do?
:36:00. > :36:04.Advise them on how to deal with extremist preachers and promote
:36:05. > :36:09.religiously motivated violence? I don't know what he's going to advise
:36:10. > :36:14.them on. Because we now have a judge that has ruled against him and
:36:15. > :36:18.actually classified him as an extremist and somebody who promotes
:36:19. > :36:21.religious violence, we actually have a possibility for the CPS to
:36:22. > :36:26.actually prosecute him. There is a law that has been in place since
:36:27. > :36:31.2005 called religiously motivated violence. If he has been classified
:36:32. > :36:36.as somebody who promotes this, there is a potential for the CPS to
:36:37. > :36:38.prosecute. I want to called into question other organisations,
:36:39. > :36:42.interfaith organisations, other Muslims groups, who say they want to
:36:43. > :36:47.interfaith organisations, other fight extremism, I call on them to
:36:48. > :36:57.say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties
:36:58. > :37:01.from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure
:37:02. > :37:07.could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make
:37:08. > :37:12.it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg
:37:13. > :37:16.has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have
:37:17. > :37:23.to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they
:37:24. > :37:28.say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.
:37:29. > :37:32.But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner
:37:33. > :37:36.and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose
:37:37. > :37:38.them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.
:37:39. > :37:41.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:42. > :37:43.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:44. > :37:51.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:52. > :37:55.Coming up on the programme: As student grants fall and loans
:37:56. > :37:58.increase, I'll ask the minister responsible how that squared
:37:59. > :38:03.with the SNP's pledge to reduce inequality of access to education.
:38:04. > :38:06.And with Brexit and talk of Indyref2 still looming large,
:38:07. > :38:09.is the Scottish government taking its eye off the ball
:38:10. > :38:19.The Scottish Government's announced a review of the system which helps
:38:20. > :38:21.fund people from less-well off backgrounds to go to
:38:22. > :38:25.Official figures out this week showed the number of students
:38:26. > :38:28.getting bursaries or grants has fallen by 35% since the SNP
:38:29. > :38:33.And elsewhere, higher education is facing continuing
:38:34. > :38:37.One university principal has warned its effect
:38:38. > :38:59.This college would have its campus and Galashiels have, like many other
:39:00. > :39:03.further education institutions has Scotland look-mac students from less
:39:04. > :39:08.well off backgrounds who made the vital financial support. Is the
:39:09. > :39:12.system working as well as it should? The principal ones to see college
:39:13. > :39:17.and university students treated on an equal basis.
:39:18. > :39:22.There is a gap for people who come from families who do not quite
:39:23. > :39:27.qualify for means testing, the bursary, but who cannot actually
:39:28. > :39:32.afford to fund their college place and in the college system loans are
:39:33. > :39:37.not available to those students. Someone who wants to train to be a
:39:38. > :39:41.teacher can access a loan and go to university but someone who wants to
:39:42. > :39:46.be a joiner does not have that opportunity.
:39:47. > :39:50.She also says there just is not enough money to help out all the
:39:51. > :39:54.students who need it but there is another concern.
:39:55. > :39:58.The other thing we must keep an eye on our changes to the welfare
:39:59. > :40:04.system. It can be the situation right now in Scotland where someone
:40:05. > :40:08.can be getting less from the bursary than if they were receiving welfare
:40:09. > :40:11.which is a huge barrier to education.
:40:12. > :40:15.Across Scotland, there were questions about whether students get
:40:16. > :40:26.their access to financial support. Official figures show the number of
:40:27. > :40:29.students getting bursaries or grants fell by almost 5% in a year and the
:40:30. > :40:31.Scottish Government has launched an enquiry into whether the system
:40:32. > :40:36.should be changed. Another concern which could affect the ability of
:40:37. > :40:43.University of Warwick, UK's vote to leave the EU. This week -- the
:40:44. > :40:47.university 's ability. There is a large amount of
:40:48. > :40:55.uncertainty and when you run the different models it ranges from bad
:40:56. > :40:59.to awful to catastrophic. University leaders say some progress has been
:41:00. > :41:05.made. We have an assured and current EU
:41:06. > :41:09.students and EU students entering in 2017 well have beer after Brexit
:41:10. > :41:15.three protected. We have had reassured us from the UK Government
:41:16. > :41:18.that if you apply for European research funding and your project
:41:19. > :41:25.plan is on beyond Brexit the UK Government will ensure that funding
:41:26. > :41:29.is still continued to be provided. But there is no way to tell how
:41:30. > :41:34.things are, they might go. Principles are in a different
:41:35. > :41:38.position because the UK Government cannot guarantee that they cannot
:41:39. > :41:44.give absolute assurances. They can advise people on entitlement and
:41:45. > :41:48.such things but there remains a fundamental uncertainty we do not
:41:49. > :41:53.know what the status of EU citizens in the UK will be a porcelain
:41:54. > :41:58.Brexit. These changing times for higher
:41:59. > :42:03.education gave rise to other concerns. This week students at the
:42:04. > :42:08.Glasgow School of Art protested at what they see as a plan to put
:42:09. > :42:14.expansion ahead of quality teaching, management says it wants to make
:42:15. > :42:19.things better for students. Higher education is moving quickly
:42:20. > :42:25.and we have been directly engaging with the students and we plan to do
:42:26. > :42:30.more of that. Back in Borders College things are
:42:31. > :42:33.more serene and over the next few years we could see change what
:42:34. > :42:36.affects the whole further and higher education sector.
:42:37. > :42:38.Well, a little earlier I spoke to Lucy Hunter Blackburn,
:42:39. > :42:41.a former civil servant who headed up Higher Education at
:42:42. > :42:59.Basically, Lucy, grants are down, loans are up, grants bound by around
:43:00. > :43:04.35% in the SNP came to power, -- drags down. Why? The reason is set
:43:05. > :43:11.out in a report the Government issued this week but said the reason
:43:12. > :43:18.grants have been cut in 2013 was to protect free tuition fees. In that
:43:19. > :43:22.sense, cutting grants is paying for not having tuition fees? That is
:43:23. > :43:27.very much what that report says and that would be a reasonable reading
:43:28. > :43:32.of the numbers published over the past few years, it explains why the
:43:33. > :43:38.Government had to go after grants, because it cannot touch the subsidy
:43:39. > :43:42.from the look-mac for free tuition. Critics say, of course, not having
:43:43. > :43:47.tuition fees does not benefit students from lower income
:43:48. > :43:50.backgrounds as much as having a proper grants system. Is there is
:43:51. > :43:55.merit in that argument? If what you are interested in it who
:43:56. > :44:00.ends up with all the depth and we should be interested in that, it is
:44:01. > :44:04.clear when he got grants the people who take on debt are the poorest
:44:05. > :44:15.students whose families cannot help them out and sort the more you push
:44:16. > :44:18.your money into the subsidies further up the income scale the less
:44:19. > :44:20.money you have to help people further down that scale from taking
:44:21. > :44:23.out larger student loans. The Scottish Government was quite
:44:24. > :44:26.vulnerable on this and recently but in England the amount they are
:44:27. > :44:31.abolishing grants and everyone will have a loan. I guess Scottish
:44:32. > :44:35.Government can say, grants may have been falling here, times are tough,
:44:36. > :44:42.but we are not doing anything as dramatic as an angler.
:44:43. > :44:45.That is fear, the in England is a very poor outcome for students and I
:44:46. > :44:50.completely agree. It is a shame the only ever look at include because
:44:51. > :44:53.you could look at the other devolved nations and they would find they
:44:54. > :45:00.have kept much higher levels of grants and we now have.
:45:01. > :45:04.You did a report earlier this year on the broader question of access to
:45:05. > :45:10.higher education and you showed access to higher education for young
:45:11. > :45:16.people for the most deprived areas in Scotland lags other nations of
:45:17. > :45:23.the UK, particularly in God. To give a figure, if you are from --
:45:24. > :45:26.particular in England. If you are from the well of patronage or four
:45:27. > :45:33.particular in England. If you are times more likely to go to
:45:34. > :45:40.university, the figure was 2.4 times in England. Why is the gap so big
:45:41. > :45:44.between Scotland and England? A lot of our young people who come from
:45:45. > :45:50.disadvantaged areas go to college instead of University and some of
:45:51. > :45:55.them will move to university. What we have not done in Scotland is
:45:56. > :46:00.expand the opportunities for direct entry to university as much as they
:46:01. > :46:03.have done in England so it is clear the chance of getting into
:46:04. > :46:10.universities suffer here and the entrance requirements are higher and
:46:11. > :46:14.we have far more courses were high requirements.
:46:15. > :46:18.The figures for young people from lower income backgrounds pipping
:46:19. > :46:23.straight into universities are better not just in England but also
:46:24. > :46:28.in Wales and Northern Ireland. -- getting straight into. All the other
:46:29. > :46:34.UK nations have a higher proportion of disadvantaged children going
:46:35. > :46:39.straight to university. There has been a fast improvement in
:46:40. > :46:44.Scotland even though we lag behind other UK nations, but you found
:46:45. > :46:47.almost all of that increase in young people into higher education from
:46:48. > :46:53.lower income backgrounds, they were going into sub degree courses in
:46:54. > :46:59.college. There is anything that looked at the
:47:00. > :47:04.all entrances into higher education up to the age of 30 and when you
:47:05. > :47:11.look at that the growth has been an entry into college-level courses. So
:47:12. > :47:14.look at that the growth has been an higher National diploma which are an
:47:15. > :47:18.important part of the Scottish education system, but the change in
:47:19. > :47:24.proportion of people getting into university by the age of 30, going
:47:25. > :47:29.directly into university, had been a very small and rather static.
:47:30. > :47:32.There is a plan in England to increase the number of universities,
:47:33. > :47:40.the Government outlined various proposals on this. They have not
:47:41. > :47:45.been taken up in Scotland but what the given what you just said would
:47:46. > :47:49.it not be a good idea to have an expansion of universities in
:47:50. > :47:53.Scotland? There are two things. You need either new institutions or more
:47:54. > :48:01.space in the coloured ones. In England it is to allow, make it
:48:02. > :48:05.easier for private providers to come into the education sector. -- or
:48:06. > :48:11.more space in the current universities.
:48:12. > :48:19.We have a well established university system but the space in
:48:20. > :48:25.it is tight because we subsidised places so heavily and what that
:48:26. > :48:32.means is we could see the acceptance rate proportion of Scots being
:48:33. > :48:40.accepted hasn't not quite sharply through UCAS over the last nine or
:48:41. > :48:44.so years whereas we have not increased in the proportion of
:48:45. > :48:53.people from outside Scotland. -- win as we have increased. -- whereas we
:48:54. > :48:59.have increased. Should we build more universities, as is the plug on
:49:00. > :49:06.England's? I would expand the one we have got. For a small nation we have
:49:07. > :49:11.a number, 18 institutions designated as universities or higher education
:49:12. > :49:17.institutions, that is not a bad number for a country of 5 million,
:49:18. > :49:22.it is more about the space we have currently. They may need to expand
:49:23. > :49:28.to build more space but we are not talking about massive expansion,
:49:29. > :49:34.just a debt of breathing space means we can get back to the kind of
:49:35. > :49:38.success rates for applicants from Scotland to Scottish universities we
:49:39. > :49:40.would have seen nine or so years ago. -- just a bit of breathing
:49:41. > :49:42.space. Thank you. Well, the Scottish Government
:49:43. > :49:43.minister responsible for Higher Education is Shirley-Anne
:49:44. > :49:45.Somerville. I spoke to her
:49:46. > :49:53.earlier this morning. The figures out this week show the
:49:54. > :49:58.amount of money the Scottish Government is giving out in
:49:59. > :50:08.bursaries and grants has gone down by 35% since the SNP first came to
:50:09. > :50:11.power. Why is that? The changes we made in 2013 to the student support
:50:12. > :50:15.package was built with stakeholders at that time to ensure that students
:50:16. > :50:19.have the maximum amount of money in the pockets. That is what we
:50:20. > :50:22.delivered up time, and that is a combination of bursaries and loans.
:50:23. > :50:29.I know now that stakeholders have concerns that bad Allens has not
:50:30. > :50:32.reflected well on students and how they are experiencing this system,
:50:33. > :50:36.which is why we have launched a review of student support this week,
:50:37. > :50:40.to make sure we take a fresh look at what is going on. If you review says
:50:41. > :50:46.the balance is wrong, we need to give more money in bursaries and
:50:47. > :50:51.loans, a rebalancing, you will do that? The review group has to be
:50:52. > :50:56.aware of the financial context the government is working in. It has be
:50:57. > :50:58.based on a realistic view of the financial context we are in,
:50:59. > :51:02.particularly when we are going financial context we are in,
:51:03. > :51:05.through Brexit. I am not saying rebuke to have to deliberate one way
:51:06. > :51:13.or the other, the entire point of having a rebuke -- review group
:51:14. > :51:18.chaired by a review... As the figures show in England, you come
:51:19. > :51:20.chaired by a review... As the from a well-off backgrounds, you are
:51:21. > :51:26.four times more likely to go to university than someone from a
:51:27. > :51:31.low-income backgrounds. Sorry, in Scotland, you were four times more
:51:32. > :51:36.likely. In England, only 2.5 times. There is not just a big inequality
:51:37. > :51:39.in access to higher education, there is a big difference between Scotland
:51:40. > :51:45.and the other nations in the UK. We are the worst. Why do you think that
:51:46. > :51:49.is? We measure things differently appeared and we do down in England.
:51:50. > :51:55.I think that is why it is often difficult to have a cross boundary
:51:56. > :51:59.discussion on that. When I spoke to John Swinney about this recently, he
:52:00. > :52:05.expected that this gap was there, as I remember. So you can't just say it
:52:06. > :52:09.is down to a blizzard of statistics. No, we could get into a debate about
:52:10. > :52:15.whether we use a different measure of statistics. Lets not. If you are
:52:16. > :52:18.young person from a low-income in England, you are considerably more
:52:19. > :52:24.likely to get into university than you are in Scotland. Let's not put
:52:25. > :52:27.numbers on it. Why is that? There are a number of reasons why the
:52:28. > :52:30.Scottish education system is different. Many people here can
:52:31. > :52:33.going to college and turns university, and that's a different
:52:34. > :52:38.course of action Pennington. We can also just do a degree at a college
:52:39. > :52:42.in Scotland, but you don't get immigrants. We're not being
:52:43. > :52:46.complacent, and that's exactly why the Scottish Government has accepted
:52:47. > :52:48.the recommendations of the widening access commission, that was in the
:52:49. > :52:53.last Parliament, and we are now going for it to come up with
:52:54. > :52:56.stakeholders and universities, ensure that those recommendations
:52:57. > :53:00.are put in place. Are you saying that because of this difference that
:53:01. > :53:05.we have appear, or young people can sometimes go to college and then to
:53:06. > :53:11.university, that the difference between Scotland and England is an
:53:12. > :53:14.illusion, or you saying... No, I'm saying it is not as stark as the
:53:15. > :53:18.figures you presented. I accept that we do have more to do, and that's
:53:19. > :53:22.exactly why we are taking actions. There has been an improvement over
:53:23. > :53:24.the last few years. We are seeing more people from the most deprived
:53:25. > :53:31.communities gaining access to university. But that is entirely
:53:32. > :53:36.down to people going into sub degree courses and colleges. Not anything
:53:37. > :53:43.wrong with doing now, but that's what accounts for the improving
:53:44. > :53:46.figures. You're not getting more people straight into university. No,
:53:47. > :53:51.that I think one of the other aspects is looking at the murder
:53:52. > :53:53.journey. This idea of leaving school, going to university and if
:53:54. > :53:59.you don't make that decision you had your chance. Mass-mac the learner
:54:00. > :54:02.journey. We are looking to ensure that any person wants to go to
:54:03. > :54:08.college first and then university, or does a university degree or
:54:09. > :54:12.diploma at a college, that is equally as important and valid as
:54:13. > :54:17.someone that goes to university. We need to ensure we are developing the
:54:18. > :54:20.Scottish education system. It's not as linear as we might have had in
:54:21. > :54:28.the past, when you or I were at university. The problem for you is
:54:29. > :54:34.that Nicola Sturgeon has staked a reputation as first Minister on
:54:35. > :54:39.doing something about this issue. What targets do you have? Is it not
:54:40. > :54:43.by the end of your current period in office, you will be able to come
:54:44. > :54:49.back on this programme and tell me that, however you measure it, the
:54:50. > :54:53.gap in opportunity for young people from lower income backgrounds in
:54:54. > :54:59.Scotland's is now the same as in England? No, the commission that
:55:00. > :55:03.target the government has accepted, as has the stakeholders, too ensure
:55:04. > :55:08.that by 2020 we have many more people going from the most deprived
:55:09. > :55:11.communities will stop the targets are about the government and the
:55:12. > :55:16.universities. Why is it not your aspiration that people from lower
:55:17. > :55:20.income backgrounds should have the aspiration that people from lower
:55:21. > :55:24.same opportunities as in England? I want them to have better
:55:25. > :55:26.opportunities than England. But they have considerably worse
:55:27. > :55:31.opportunities at the moment, so wouldn't the benchmark -- a
:55:32. > :55:36.benchmark be to say we want it to be the same as it went? No, we are
:55:37. > :55:44.setting the benchmark -- benchmark higher. How will opportunities for
:55:45. > :55:47.young people from lower income backgrounds in Scotland differ from
:55:48. > :55:52.those in England by the end of the period in office? The commission
:55:53. > :55:58.looked at many examples, but one of them is to ensure that those who
:55:59. > :56:03.work from your areas and skills where they might not have the same
:56:04. > :56:07.attainment levels as those that are in more affluent backgrounds,
:56:08. > :56:10.actually have what is called a contextualised admissions into
:56:11. > :56:14.universities. One of the key areas we are looking at is that people who
:56:15. > :56:18.were in a high school from April backgrounds need to be able to get
:56:19. > :56:22.into university, and is not all about grades. The time when you
:56:23. > :56:28.could measure whether a student was good or bad simply by their graves
:56:29. > :56:30.has long gone. We are ensuring a contextualised admissions process is
:56:31. > :56:35.fair. Universities are doing this already. By the end of your period
:56:36. > :56:40.in office, through this contextualised admissions preceding
:56:41. > :56:44.that you have just described, a young person from a lower income
:56:45. > :56:47.background in Scotland will have more chance, because you said you
:56:48. > :56:51.wanted to do better, more chance of getting into university than they do
:56:52. > :56:58.in England? If that is the right decision for them. So that is the
:56:59. > :57:03.benchmark we should judge you on? The benchmark is set out in the
:57:04. > :57:05.commission report. That you have just said you want them to have
:57:06. > :57:08.better opportunities than just said you want them to have
:57:09. > :57:12.England, where they don't have that we can say you failed? The
:57:13. > :57:16.recommendations are there for all to see. Absolutely, they are there for
:57:17. > :57:20.myself and the government to be judged on. We are taking access
:57:21. > :57:24.within the commission's recommendations widening access
:57:25. > :57:28.already. But those with care experience, for example. We are
:57:29. > :57:33.already doing short-term measures to improve widening access to those
:57:34. > :57:38.with -- those within particular groups. This is a long-term issue.
:57:39. > :57:43.By 2020, we will see great development. Can you point to any
:57:44. > :57:46.evidence from Scottish Government researchers which shows that the
:57:47. > :57:53.policy of having no tuition fees is leading to greater access to
:57:54. > :57:57.university, or indeed to college, for students from lower income
:57:58. > :58:02.backgrounds? The figures have shown in the last few years that the
:58:03. > :58:07.number of people from disadvantaged backgrounds that are applying to
:58:08. > :58:11.university has increased, and the number of entrants has also
:58:12. > :58:15.increased. Can you point to any research which shows that that is
:58:16. > :58:20.connected in anyway with adding low -- having no tuition fees? I can
:58:21. > :58:25.point to an absolute printable as to why tuition is there. So this
:58:26. > :58:32.principle doesn't require any evidence? No, it is a founding
:58:33. > :58:36.principle of the education policy. Even if it could be demonstrated, as
:58:37. > :58:40.Lucy Hunter Blackburn argued, that having a policy of no tuition fees
:58:41. > :58:43.was meaning that grants would be cut, making it more difficult than
:58:44. > :58:47.people from lower income backgrounds to get to university, it is the
:58:48. > :58:53.principal overriding any evidence that could count against it? She has
:58:54. > :59:00.given her opinion. You have said it is a principle which you have just
:59:01. > :59:03.accepted, you can point to any evidence that shows no tuition fees
:59:04. > :59:08.is increasing the chances for a lower income young people. There is
:59:09. > :59:14.no evidence to suggest that free tuition fees are preventing people
:59:15. > :59:18.from lower backgrounds. At best it is neutral? It is a matter of
:59:19. > :59:21.opinion. We have a principle within the SNP that you should be able to
:59:22. > :59:26.go to university based on your ability to learn and not your
:59:27. > :59:34.ability to pay. Is the defining policy of your governments is to
:59:35. > :59:37.reduce inequalities in access, surely to say it is a matter of
:59:38. > :59:44.principle which overrides evidence, or a matter of opinion, isn't good
:59:45. > :59:48.enough? There is no evidence to say that free tuition is putting people
:59:49. > :59:56.off. She gave her opinion and she is privately entitled to it. I believe
:59:57. > :00:01.that the free education... Wouldn't it be a priority for you to go to
:00:02. > :00:05.your civil servants, the once you are still bear, not ones like Lizzie
:00:06. > :00:11.Hunter Blackburn who have left, and said, we have this policy, at least
:00:12. > :00:14.to put my mind at rest, can we find out if there is any evidence that it
:00:15. > :00:20.is doing anything to increase access? You don't seem to have done.
:00:21. > :00:24.I look at the evidence of the amount of people coming from worst of
:00:25. > :00:30.backgrounds and I look at what is happening down south. Will you
:00:31. > :00:34.commission such a study now? I look at what is happening down elsewhere
:00:35. > :00:38.they do have 27 thousand pounds worth of debt that it could link the
:00:39. > :00:45.ball. And access to university for young people from low background is
:00:46. > :00:50.utterly better. -- considerably better. It will be interesting to
:00:51. > :00:57.see what happens now that they have abolished maintenance grants. I
:00:58. > :01:06.don't think England's as a policy that we would support here. That is
:01:07. > :01:10.a different issue. I accept that they're doing now is, but there is
:01:11. > :01:16.no evidence that having the tuition fees -- having no tuition these is
:01:17. > :01:19.to tearing people from lower income backgrounds. You have a better
:01:20. > :01:24.chance of going to university in England only do in Scotland. There
:01:25. > :01:27.are myriad of reasons why these things will happen. One of the
:01:28. > :01:33.reasons is that we have an entirely different type of education system.
:01:34. > :01:38.People will go to college to study and use... People have to end, but
:01:39. > :01:41.it seems slightly extraordinary that you haven't commissioned your civil
:01:42. > :01:44.servants to look at the evidence in England and here and find out
:01:45. > :01:50.whether there is any connection chewing tuition fee policy and...
:01:51. > :01:53.Our government policy is that free education is integral and you should
:01:54. > :01:56.be able to go to university regardless of how much money your
:01:57. > :01:57.parents have all stop we will have to leave it there. Thank you very
:01:58. > :02:08.much. Now, as well as higher education,
:02:09. > :02:10.problems have also been mounting in other areas
:02:11. > :02:12.like health and policing. Analysis of the National Health
:02:13. > :02:15.Service here by Audit Scotland found that only one its targets
:02:16. > :02:17.was met last year. Meanwhile, Police Scotland
:02:18. > :02:19.are looking at a likely overspend in their budget for this
:02:20. > :02:21.year of ?17.5 million. I'm joined now by George Adam
:02:22. > :02:29.from the SNP and Miles Briggs I wonder, is the Scottish Government
:02:30. > :02:35.focusing too much on independence and neglecting its duties to run
:02:36. > :02:41.Scotland's? I am taking a wild guess here, but I suspect you'd think they
:02:42. > :02:45.are. Absolutely. I think this week's audit report has demonstrated that
:02:46. > :02:49.more than ever. The government has now missed seven out of eight of its
:02:50. > :02:55.NHS targets. It has been in power for ten years, and patients are
:02:56. > :02:59.suffering. I think it's clear from that that the Scottish Government
:03:00. > :03:04.have taken their eye off the job. I think you have to look at this and
:03:05. > :03:08.the actual context, which is that there are 18 pieces of legislation
:03:09. > :03:12.currently being consulted on, that the government is dealing with a lot
:03:13. > :03:16.of the issues and the day-to-day and the day job. One of the biggest
:03:17. > :03:25.issues is the fact that Brexit is going to take ?11.2 billion, if it
:03:26. > :03:31.is a Tory had exit. We have to stand up Scotland and make sure we that.
:03:32. > :03:36.Brexit doesn't explain why your party can't run the health service.
:03:37. > :03:40.That's not true. The health service got ?13 billion of funding this
:03:41. > :03:44.year, more than ever. The patient surveys say there are more patients
:03:45. > :03:48.saying the service is working better than ever before. This is the Tories
:03:49. > :03:53.once again trying to take away from the issues that we need to discuss,
:03:54. > :04:02.which is the day-to-day life which Brexit files cars are trying to move
:04:03. > :04:04.away. Why is that wrong? Look at the facts that for ten years we have not
:04:05. > :04:08.had an NHS workforce plan. Maybe facts that for ten years we have not
:04:09. > :04:13.Gordon would like to... Maybe George would like to say why that is? I'm
:04:14. > :04:19.not them to say, I don't have a clue! The first Minister failed to
:04:20. > :04:24.answer that question. Like you have just seen earlier in your piece
:04:25. > :04:27.about education, in each area where the SNP are responsible, we have
:04:28. > :04:30.seen Scotland go backwards. Gomis ministers need to start to get a
:04:31. > :04:40.grip of what they are responsible for. -- Scottish ministers. In that
:04:41. > :04:43.audit reports, one of the big policies of the SNP government, and
:04:44. > :04:50.one that many would agree with, is to try to integrate the NHS with
:04:51. > :04:54.social care. That helps both patients and could potentially save
:04:55. > :04:58.a massive amount of money. According to that reports, despite this being
:04:59. > :05:03.talked about not just by the SNP but by previous governments for over a
:05:04. > :05:07.decade, the SNP government has got no system of benchmarks in place to
:05:08. > :05:13.know whether this policy will actually be implemented or not. It
:05:14. > :05:16.has no idea how much it would cost and no plan in place for staff.
:05:17. > :05:28.That's pretty shocking, isn't it? The idea is to integrate health and
:05:29. > :05:34.social care and ensure people get the service they need when they need
:05:35. > :05:36.it, that is important. We are working towards bats and there will
:05:37. > :05:40.be challenges but we are getting working towards bats and there will
:05:41. > :05:48.there and dealing with these issues. The point that Scotland makes is not
:05:49. > :05:53.just you are not getting there quickly it is because there are no
:05:54. > :05:57.proper benchmarks and planes you cannot have any idea if you are
:05:58. > :06:02.getting there or not. There are tests and benchmark and
:06:03. > :06:10.ordered Scotland have pointed to certain things we will take on
:06:11. > :06:14.boards -- Audit Scotland. They keep talking about that we keep talking
:06:15. > :06:19.about Brexit but that could potentially take 80,000 jobs away
:06:20. > :06:23.from Scotland. That is keeping an eye on the day job and standing up
:06:24. > :06:27.for Scotland. That is a reasonable point. It would
:06:28. > :06:31.be remiss of the Government not to print much of its time both
:06:32. > :06:36.analysing the possible effects print much of its time both
:06:37. > :06:41.Brexit and trying to argue with the UK Government for what it sees as
:06:42. > :06:53.the best way to handle it. It would be dereliction of duty not to do so.
:06:54. > :06:56.I have not mentioned at Brexit but is where the focus on policy is in
:06:57. > :06:58.Scotland and the UK Government want the Scottish Government to work
:06:59. > :07:03.together to deliver the best possible Brexit and I only wish SNP
:07:04. > :07:10.ministers would do that and stop was the grievance politics. Which we see
:07:11. > :07:15.everyday. The Scottish Government is trying to draw up detailed proposals
:07:16. > :07:26.for what it sees as a halfway house whereby Scotland could remain in the
:07:27. > :07:30.UK but not suffer hard Brexit. It is perfectly reasonable, given the way
:07:31. > :07:36.Scotland voted in the referendum and the mandate the Scottish Government
:07:37. > :07:40.has, for them to do that. Negotiations are taking place now
:07:41. > :07:47.and now is the time for these ideas to be put forward and the me said
:07:48. > :07:53.that is there but the clear message I hear, as someone who voted to
:07:54. > :07:57.remain, I do not want to see the Scottish Parliament use that to
:07:58. > :08:03.peddle an independent agenda once more which two years ago we voted to
:08:04. > :08:06.say no to. That is where we need to seek the Scottish Government move
:08:07. > :08:10.forward. This is the Tories obsession with
:08:11. > :08:16.independence. They are willing to discuss with the people in the
:08:17. > :08:20.Sunderland about the Nissan jobs, they voted to leave so they are
:08:21. > :08:28.willing to do that behind closed doors but the will not talk to the
:08:29. > :08:31.Scottish Government to do likewise. Thank you both very much.
:08:32. > :08:34.It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's
:08:35. > :08:45.With me now are the political editor of The Herald, Tom Gordon,
:08:46. > :08:48.and the former Labour MP for Glasgow North, Ann McKechin.
:08:49. > :08:59.What did you make of that last point, Tom? There clearly are
:09:00. > :09:02.mounting problems but it seems not unreasonable for the Government to
:09:03. > :09:10.focus a bet on Brexit so perhaps they are both right. It is not a
:09:11. > :09:14.binary choice, it just shows the business of Government is hard and
:09:15. > :09:19.Brexit has made it even harder so I think you have to cut the Government
:09:20. > :09:23.some slack. There are ?1 problems they must focus on the immediate
:09:24. > :09:31.circumstances, they must deal with Brexit. -- there are long term
:09:32. > :09:35.problems. If you take that Audit Scotland report, they have been in
:09:36. > :09:39.power since 2007, it is quite shocking.
:09:40. > :09:44.They were elected in 2007 on a promise of fighting for local
:09:45. > :09:48.services and now they are trying to undertake the reforms that were
:09:49. > :09:53.omitted about ten years ago. They have become the Labour Party. The
:09:54. > :09:58.face the same dilemma Labour faced a decade ago. It is not easy because
:09:59. > :10:03.labour did suffer from that because it is all very well talking about
:10:04. > :10:06.doing this and that is what the problem is everybody now accepts to
:10:07. > :10:11.rebalance the health service and promote this integration you must
:10:12. > :10:14.close some acute facilities and perhaps people will have to travel a
:10:15. > :10:24.bit more in order to release money you can put into care in the
:10:25. > :10:27.community but as soon as you experienced, there are people on the
:10:28. > :10:29.street saying you are closing our hospitals, this is outrageous. The
:10:30. > :10:30.Audit Scotland report is a wake-up call that there must be a serious
:10:31. > :10:36.debate about how we shift that call that there must be a serious
:10:37. > :10:40.budget from acute health care into social care and the Audit Scotland
:10:41. > :10:46.report says we have not even started that, despite the demographic
:10:47. > :10:54.problems, rising ageing population... The Audit Scotland
:10:55. > :10:57.report also makes the point, the Labour Liberal backed Government
:10:58. > :11:02.were talking about that long before then. We spoke before the 2010
:11:03. > :11:07.election about social care integration south of the border that
:11:08. > :11:11.has been a similar discussion about how we do that, but cutting local
:11:12. > :11:15.authority budgets by far greater extent than other public service
:11:16. > :11:20.budgets, and Scotland has had a consequence and that is we do not
:11:21. > :11:25.have the adequate level of care and our communities to care for a
:11:26. > :11:29.greater number of elderly people. Tom, this discussion earlier about
:11:30. > :11:35.how education, I think we may have got some pledges from Shirley but
:11:36. > :11:40.this is a difficult one for the Government because Nicola Sturgeon
:11:41. > :11:45.has staked her reputation on it. There is room for waffle is limited.
:11:46. > :11:51.They must come up with hard targets and demonstrate they have met them.
:11:52. > :11:55.She said Judge me at the end of this Parliament on whether I have
:11:56. > :11:59.narrowed the attainment gap. You picked up on the point of the
:12:00. > :12:03.principle of free education. This shows is a problem when the
:12:04. > :12:07.principal becomes a commandment because Alex Salmond had halved in
:12:08. > :12:13.stone but the rocks would melt before they got rid of this. They
:12:14. > :12:17.are not locked into it, what may. Government have to be flexible and
:12:18. > :12:21.pragmatic as conditions change and in the long term this principle may
:12:22. > :12:27.have to be flexed but right now they are stuck with it. Labour's position
:12:28. > :12:33.on tuition fees has been all over the place. I think you are against
:12:34. > :12:41.them again, aren't you? Having ?9,000 fees a year, like in England,
:12:42. > :12:47.is not sustainable. You think there could be smaller fees? There is a
:12:48. > :12:52.need, as Tom said, change in circumstances you need to look again
:12:53. > :12:59.at other ways in which to finance higher education. I am not here as a
:13:00. > :13:04.party spokesman today but I think both sides of the border we do not
:13:05. > :13:07.have a long-term and sustainable financial settlement in terms of
:13:08. > :13:12.have a long-term and sustainable undergraduate students. What you
:13:13. > :13:21.have just said, in the guide to what politicians say, the technical term
:13:22. > :13:26.for what you said is blather. The technical and if we need to be
:13:27. > :13:31.prepared for innovation and creative ways of resolving this and the
:13:32. > :13:34.Minister to be failed to accept your point about the evidence clearly
:13:35. > :13:40.showing we have not met the attainment gap and we are the worst
:13:41. > :13:42.of all the home nations and we need to do better.
:13:43. > :13:47.The danger for the Government is these things are so complicated and
:13:48. > :13:52.if you set targets omitting them is not easy, not simple.
:13:53. > :13:55.Something that came out in the health debate is we need a
:13:56. > :13:57.consensual cross-party debate but there is no chance before the local
:13:58. > :13:57.elections. I'll be back at the
:13:58. > :14:02.same time next week.