:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:44. > :00:47.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:48. > :00:49.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:50. > :01:02.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:03. > :01:08.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:09. > :01:13.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:14. > :01:15.Now the second UKIP leadership election this year
:01:16. > :01:19.Amid delays and growing frustration among passengers,
:01:20. > :01:22.I'll be asking the Transport Minister Humza Yousaf if he thinks
:01:23. > :01:29.Abellio are still fit to run ScotRail.
:01:30. > :01:37.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:38. > :01:40.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:41. > :01:45.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:46. > :01:47.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:48. > :01:50.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:51. > :01:56.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:57. > :01:58."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:01:59. > :02:01.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:02. > :02:09.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:10. > :02:16.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:17. > :02:26.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:27. > :02:32.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:33. > :02:35.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:36. > :02:39.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:40. > :02:43.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:44. > :02:50.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:51. > :02:54.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:55. > :02:57.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:58. > :03:04.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:05. > :03:10.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:11. > :03:16.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:17. > :03:19.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:20. > :03:23.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:24. > :03:28.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:29. > :03:31.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:32. > :03:36.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:37. > :03:44.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:45. > :03:46.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:47. > :03:51.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:52. > :03:55.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:56. > :04:02.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:03. > :04:06.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:07. > :04:11.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:12. > :04:15.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:16. > :04:19.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:20. > :04:25.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:26. > :04:27.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:28. > :04:33.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:34. > :04:43.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:44. > :04:46.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:47. > :04:52.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:53. > :04:56.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:57. > :05:00.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:01. > :05:04.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:05. > :05:08.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:09. > :05:14.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:15. > :05:18.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:19. > :05:22.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:23. > :05:28.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:29. > :05:32.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:33. > :05:37.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:38. > :05:41.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:42. > :05:46.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:47. > :05:54.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:55. > :05:59.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:00. > :06:02.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:03. > :06:09.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:10. > :06:17.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:18. > :06:21.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:22. > :06:25.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:26. > :06:29.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:30. > :06:34.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:35. > :06:39.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:40. > :06:55.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:56. > :06:59.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:00. > :07:02.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:03. > :07:05.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:06. > :07:11.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:12. > :07:19.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:20. > :07:23.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:24. > :07:27.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:28. > :07:32.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:33. > :07:36.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:37. > :07:40.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:41. > :07:46.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:47. > :07:50.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:51. > :07:56.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:57. > :08:00.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:01. > :08:05.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:06. > :08:09.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:10. > :08:18.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:19. > :08:22.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:23. > :08:27.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:28. > :08:34.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:35. > :08:37.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:38. > :08:43.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:44. > :08:49.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:50. > :08:50.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:51. > :08:59.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:00. > :09:03.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:04. > :09:09.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:10. > :09:14.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:15. > :09:19.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:20. > :09:24.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:25. > :09:27.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:28. > :09:33.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:34. > :09:38.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:39. > :09:42.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:43. > :09:46.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:47. > :09:51.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:52. > :09:57.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:58. > :10:00.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:01. > :10:07.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:08. > :10:10.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:11. > :10:16.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:17. > :10:20.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:21. > :10:24.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:25. > :10:30.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:31. > :10:34.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:35. > :10:37.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:38. > :10:45.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:46. > :10:48.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:49. > :10:55.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:56. > :11:05.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:06. > :11:09.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:10. > :11:13.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:14. > :11:26.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:27. > :11:32.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:33. > :11:37.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:38. > :11:42.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:43. > :11:47.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:48. > :11:54.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:55. > :11:56.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:57. > :11:57.also means quitting the
:11:58. > :12:00.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:01. > :12:01.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:02. > :12:03.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:04. > :12:05.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:06. > :12:08.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:09. > :12:17.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:18. > :12:22.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:23. > :12:25."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:26. > :12:28.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:29. > :12:29.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:30. > :12:41.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:42. > :12:44.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:45. > :12:47.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:48. > :12:50.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:51. > :12:52.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:53. > :12:59.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:00. > :13:04.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:05. > :13:06.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:07. > :13:11.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:12. > :13:17.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:18. > :13:20.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:21. > :13:34.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:35. > :13:37.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:38. > :13:45.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:46. > :13:49.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:50. > :13:53.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:54. > :13:58.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:59. > :14:01.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:02. > :14:07.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:08. > :14:10.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:11. > :14:14.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:15. > :14:19.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:20. > :14:22.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:23. > :14:27.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:28. > :14:32.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:33. > :14:35.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:36. > :14:40.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:41. > :14:44.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:45. > :14:49.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:50. > :14:55.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:56. > :14:58.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:14:59. > :15:03.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:04. > :15:06.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:07. > :15:13.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:14. > :15:17.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:18. > :15:21.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:22. > :15:25.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:26. > :15:29.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:30. > :15:32.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:33. > :15:38.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:39. > :15:44.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:45. > :15:49.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:50. > :15:56.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:57. > :15:58.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:15:59. > :16:00.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:01. > :16:07.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:08. > :16:11.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:12. > :16:13.It's not the EU which is
:16:14. > :16:16.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:17. > :16:19.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:20. > :16:22.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:23. > :16:25.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:26. > :16:27.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:28. > :16:29.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:30. > :16:33.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:34. > :16:47.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:48. > :16:51.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:52. > :16:54.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:55. > :16:58.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:59. > :17:02.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:03. > :17:05.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:06. > :17:10.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:11. > :17:11.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:12. > :17:30.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:31. > :17:32.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:33. > :17:35.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:36. > :17:38.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:39. > :17:40.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:41. > :17:43.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:44. > :17:45.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:46. > :17:47.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:48. > :17:49.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:50. > :17:52.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:53. > :17:54.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:55. > :17:58.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:17:59. > :18:02.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:03. > :18:05.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:06. > :18:07.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:08. > :18:10.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:11. > :18:13.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:14. > :18:25.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:26. > :18:27.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:28. > :18:32.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:33. > :18:35.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:36. > :18:39.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:40. > :18:43.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:44. > :18:47.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:48. > :18:54.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:55. > :18:58.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:18:59. > :19:01.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:02. > :19:03.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:04. > :19:06.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:07. > :19:14.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:15. > :19:15.run. There is absolutely
:19:16. > :19:17.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:18. > :19:18.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:19. > :19:22.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:23. > :19:31.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:32. > :19:34.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:35. > :19:37.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:38. > :19:47.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:48. > :19:52.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:53. > :20:02.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:03. > :20:05.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:06. > :20:09.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:10. > :20:12.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:13. > :20:17.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:18. > :20:20.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:21. > :20:24.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:25. > :20:27.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:28. > :20:31.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:32. > :20:35.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:36. > :20:38.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:39. > :20:42.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:43. > :20:47.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:48. > :20:51.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:52. > :20:54.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:55. > :20:58.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:59. > :21:02.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:03. > :21:05.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:06. > :21:10.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:11. > :21:13.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:14. > :21:16.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:17. > :21:20.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:21. > :21:23.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:24. > :21:29.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:30. > :21:34.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:35. > :21:37.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:38. > :21:41.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:42. > :21:46.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:47. > :21:48.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:49. > :21:51.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:52. > :21:55.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:56. > :21:58.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:21:59. > :22:02.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:03. > :22:05.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:06. > :22:09.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:10. > :22:12.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:13. > :22:14.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:15. > :22:15.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:16. > :22:18.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:19. > :22:21.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:22. > :22:24.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:25. > :22:27.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:28. > :22:42.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:43. > :22:52.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:53. > :23:00.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:01. > :23:02.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:03. > :23:05.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:06. > :23:19.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:20. > :23:22.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:23. > :23:24.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:25. > :23:26.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:27. > :23:29.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:30. > :23:33.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:34. > :23:36.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:37. > :23:42.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:43. > :23:46.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:47. > :23:51.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:52. > :23:57.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:58. > :24:00.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:01. > :24:09.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:10. > :24:12.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:13. > :24:17.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:18. > :24:20.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:21. > :24:22.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:23. > :24:28.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:29. > :24:31.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:32. > :24:45.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:46. > :24:47.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:48. > :24:50.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:51. > :24:53.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:54. > :24:55.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:56. > :24:58.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:59. > :25:00.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:01. > :25:09.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:10. > :25:12.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:13. > :25:14.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:15. > :25:17.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:18. > :25:19.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:20. > :25:23.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:24. > :25:25.that is something that Our members are not
:25:26. > :25:31.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:32. > :25:33.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:34. > :25:35.the future What method would you use
:25:36. > :25:39.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:40. > :25:41.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:42. > :25:45.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:46. > :25:51.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:52. > :25:53.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:54. > :25:58.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:59. > :26:00.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:01. > :26:05.details. This is one vote that
:26:06. > :26:08.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:09. > :26:12.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:13. > :26:14.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:15. > :26:18.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:19. > :26:21.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:22. > :26:29.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:30. > :26:37.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:38. > :26:40.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:41. > :26:43.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:44. > :26:45.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:46. > :26:48.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:49. > :27:03.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:04. > :27:13.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:14. > :27:16.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:17. > :27:19.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:20. > :27:22.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:23. > :27:26.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:27. > :27:29.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:30. > :27:33.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:34. > :27:53.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:54. > :27:56.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:57. > :27:59.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:00. > :28:01.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:02. > :28:03.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:04. > :28:06.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:07. > :28:08.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:09. > :28:11.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:12. > :28:14.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:15. > :28:16.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:17. > :28:19.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:20. > :28:21.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:22. > :28:25.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:26. > :28:28.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:29. > :28:35.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:36. > :28:39.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:40. > :28:43.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:44. > :28:46.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:47. > :28:51.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:52. > :28:55.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:56. > :28:59.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:00. > :29:03.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:04. > :29:06.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:07. > :29:09.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:10. > :29:20.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:21. > :29:23.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:24. > :29:25.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:26. > :29:28.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:29. > :29:31.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:32. > :29:34.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:35. > :29:38.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:39. > :29:42.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:43. > :29:45.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:46. > :29:49.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:50. > :29:54.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:55. > :29:57.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:58. > :30:01.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:02. > :30:08.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:09. > :30:11.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:12. > :30:15.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:16. > :30:21.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:22. > :30:24.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:25. > :30:29.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:30. > :30:32.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:33. > :30:36.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:37. > :30:41.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:42. > :30:46.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:47. > :30:50.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:51. > :30:54.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:55. > :30:59.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:00. > :31:04.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:05. > :31:08.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:09. > :31:11.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:12. > :31:17.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:18. > :31:20.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:21. > :31:24.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:25. > :31:25.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:26. > :31:35.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:36. > :31:42.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:43. > :31:49.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:50. > :31:53.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:54. > :31:58.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:31:59. > :32:04.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:05. > :32:09.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:10. > :32:13.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:14. > :32:20.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:21. > :32:23.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:24. > :32:32.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:33. > :32:35.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:36. > :32:40.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:41. > :32:44.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:45. > :32:49.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:50. > :32:52.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:53. > :32:56.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:57. > :32:58.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:32:59. > :33:07.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:08. > :33:11.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:12. > :33:15.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:16. > :33:19.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:20. > :33:26.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:27. > :33:33.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:34. > :33:36.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:37. > :33:39.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:40. > :33:46.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:47. > :33:53.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:54. > :33:57.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:58. > :34:02.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:03. > :34:08.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:09. > :34:11.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:12. > :34:15.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:16. > :34:20.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:21. > :34:24.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:25. > :34:29.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:30. > :34:35.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:36. > :34:38.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:39. > :34:42.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:43. > :34:45.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:46. > :34:52.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:53. > :34:55.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:56. > :35:00.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:01. > :35:09.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:10. > :35:14.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:15. > :35:19.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:20. > :35:24.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:25. > :35:28.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:29. > :35:33.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:34. > :35:36.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:37. > :35:42.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:43. > :35:46.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:47. > :35:53.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:54. > :35:59.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:00. > :36:04.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:05. > :36:08.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:09. > :36:13.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:14. > :36:18.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:19. > :36:33.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:34. > :36:41.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:42. > :36:47.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:48. > :36:51.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:52. > :36:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:58. > :37:00.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:01. > :37:05.The Transport Minister tells there's a strong arguments
:37:06. > :37:09.for a unified railway system under public ownership.
:37:10. > :37:12.The Scottish and Welsh Governments win the right to intervene
:37:13. > :37:16.in the Supreme Court Appeal over Article 50 - but with growing
:37:17. > :37:18.pressure on Prime Minister May to abandon the appeal altogether,
:37:19. > :37:26.And after picking-up mysterious signals emanating from Westminster,
:37:27. > :37:33.our reporter Huw Williams goes beyond the final frontier.
:37:34. > :37:35.Worth over ?7 billion the ScotRail franchise is the single biggest
:37:36. > :37:42.The current recipient of this handsome public purse
:37:43. > :38:00.All does not seem to be going well. In a moment we will hear from the
:38:01. > :38:04.transport minister saying he is holding a meeting next week to
:38:05. > :38:11.create a public sector company to bid to run the railways. On Thursday
:38:12. > :38:14.morning a train broke down between Haymarket and Waverley, causing
:38:15. > :38:19.chaos. Here are some views of the passengers. It is a shambles. A
:38:20. > :38:24.joke. We were on the train for over three hours. We were coming from
:38:25. > :38:34.Livingston. It took two and have ours. I had better go. I am late for
:38:35. > :38:37.work. We had to stand there and no one told us what was going on. We
:38:38. > :38:38.were told there were replacement bus services but they never came.
:38:39. > :38:40.Well, later the same day under questioning
:38:41. > :38:41.from Labour's Kezia Dugdale, the First Minister apologised
:38:42. > :38:43.for Abellio's performance and accepted it's not good enough.
:38:44. > :38:49.I am sorry for the disruption that was caused this morning and any
:38:50. > :38:54.disruption that any passenger faces on any day of the week. That is
:38:55. > :38:58.ScotRail's position and it is mine. I accept things are not good enough
:38:59. > :39:02.and that is why the improvement plan is in place and we will stick with
:39:03. > :39:05.that until things are running to a standard the public have a right to
:39:06. > :39:05.accept two expect. I'll be speaking with the Transport
:39:06. > :39:08.Minister Humza Yousaf shortly, but first, here's Robert Samson
:39:09. > :39:10.from the rail passengers lobby group Transport Focus and I asked him
:39:11. > :39:23.if things are getting worse Yes. Passengers are experiencing
:39:24. > :39:28.poor journeys, punctuality is going down. They are going from 90% down
:39:29. > :39:34.to 80%. Passengers are suffering right now. Is this a problem to do
:39:35. > :39:38.it with Abellio or is it a more generalised problem? We have met
:39:39. > :39:44.with senior management from Abellio last week and there is a problem
:39:45. > :39:50.with punctuality but there is not one major issue. That are a number
:39:51. > :39:54.of issues, such as trains breaking down, infrastructure problems. It is
:39:55. > :39:58.attention to detail that is required to resolve it and hopefully the
:39:59. > :40:03.performance improvement plan over the next couple of months will see
:40:04. > :40:07.that punctuality get back up to 90%. Is the problem that Abellio have not
:40:08. > :40:13.been paying that detailed attention in way that first were when they
:40:14. > :40:17.were running it? They have been paying attention to the detail but
:40:18. > :40:25.there have been a number of other factors as well, such as industrial
:40:26. > :40:28.disputes. Even the problems such as the fourth road works closure meant
:40:29. > :40:31.that poor performance for ScotRail because they had to amend their
:40:32. > :40:34.that poor performance for ScotRail timetables to deal with passengers
:40:35. > :40:39.getting in from Fife to Edinburgh. What they would say is that a lot of
:40:40. > :40:42.these things you mentioned where beyond their control. Yes, there are
:40:43. > :40:47.a number of that terrorists that are beyond the control but there are
:40:48. > :40:55.numbers of factors that are within their control. -- a number of
:40:56. > :41:00.factors. Such as Saint Mel 's not failing and points failing not
:41:01. > :41:05.failing. Both those are in control of Network Rail and within the
:41:06. > :41:08.ScotRail Alliance. We hope the attention to detail with this
:41:09. > :41:13.performance improvement plan will give passengers the train service
:41:14. > :41:17.that they want. Some of the issues they mention their sound to me like
:41:18. > :41:24.Network Rail issues, rather than Abellio issues. Passengers do not
:41:25. > :41:28.care if they are Network Rail issues or ScotRail issues and there is an
:41:29. > :41:33.alliance that is coming together, ScotRail and Network Rail, it is up
:41:34. > :41:37.to the them together to solve the problem and deliver the railway
:41:38. > :41:41.system that passengers want. Passengers do not want to hear
:41:42. > :41:45.excuses. It is the infrastructure owners fault, they do not care. Just
:41:46. > :41:51.fix the problem. Take me through this. If you are someone who relies
:41:52. > :41:58.on the trains to commute from Glasgow to Edinburgh or Dundee to
:41:59. > :42:05.Aberdeen or whatever, what are the sort of common problems that regular
:42:06. > :42:08.commuters are coming across? Regular problems are trains being delayed
:42:09. > :42:14.and even the performance measure. Commuters especially notice if
:42:15. > :42:22.trains are two or three minutes late. They want the trains to be on
:42:23. > :42:26.time. We have done research and high ratings are punctuality and being
:42:27. > :42:30.able to get a seat. A lot of times in the morning and evening rush hour
:42:31. > :42:32.passengers are unable to get a seat. Those are the basics that we want to
:42:33. > :42:40.passengers are unable to get a seat. deliver. What about the state of the
:42:41. > :42:42.trains themselves? The trains in the morning and evening are overcrowded
:42:43. > :42:47.and that is a problem for passengers. When things do or wrong,
:42:48. > :42:51.they want a good level of information to see how long the
:42:52. > :42:56.delay is going to be and what alternatives are in place. When it
:42:57. > :42:58.works, it is good. It is patchy and what we want as consistent delivery
:42:59. > :43:01.of information so that passengers can make an informed choice. Thank
:43:02. > :43:03.you very much indeed. Well, the man hopefully with a plan
:43:04. > :43:06.to get Scottish rail back on the right tracks
:43:07. > :43:17.is Transport Minister Humza Yousaf. First of all, when the Abellio
:43:18. > :43:23.contract was awarded your Government described it as world leading. Could
:43:24. > :43:27.you explain to me in what ways Scotland's railways are better than
:43:28. > :43:33.any others in the world. World leading in terms of what it offered
:43:34. > :43:38.workers at the time. No compulsory redundancies, the living wage. Let's
:43:39. > :43:43.be clear, ScotRail's performance has been not good enough. The understand
:43:44. > :43:47.that I have told them and two in no uncertain terms that the performance
:43:48. > :43:50.must improve and if it does not improve, there will be serious
:43:51. > :43:55.consequences. It is not world class yet. It is a franchise and we will
:43:56. > :43:58.be working to get it the best railways on these islands. It is not
:43:59. > :44:04.good enough. ScotRail know it is not good enough. Is it world leading in
:44:05. > :44:10.any respect? Some of the protections it gives employees are unmatched
:44:11. > :44:13.across these islands. You will understand that people are
:44:14. > :44:19.frustrated at not being able to do their commute. There are criteria in
:44:20. > :44:24.using it as the best in the world is not the staff being made redundant.
:44:25. > :44:29.I would agree. Passengers have been frustrated. Passengers tell me they
:44:30. > :44:33.are angry. I was that the really at peak time and I have heard that.
:44:34. > :44:37.When they go on the morning travels are back in the evening, I am on top
:44:38. > :44:41.of ScotRail to improve the performance. It is not at your level
:44:42. > :44:48.that is acceptable. Everyday when passengers go on their commute, I R
:44:49. > :44:53.two and on top of ScotRail to make sure they are improving. Your
:44:54. > :44:56.Government promised to deliver a world leading railway, which means
:44:57. > :45:00.the best in the world and you have just sat there and told me that the
:45:01. > :45:05.is no way in which it is the best really in the world. That is your
:45:06. > :45:10.responsibility. Yes, it is my responsibility. Why do you not
:45:11. > :45:16.resign? The only people calling for that are the party and Labour unions
:45:17. > :45:20.affiliated with Labour. People want a transport minister... Are you
:45:21. > :45:24.inviting passengers to call for your resignation? No. I am on top of the
:45:25. > :45:29.job and listening to what passengers have to say and monitoring
:45:30. > :45:34.ScotRail's performance. I demand a per two improvement. I will be
:45:35. > :45:38.clear, there are very serious consequences for ScotRail and
:45:39. > :45:41.Abellio if they do not improve their performance. Nicola Sturgeon said
:45:42. > :45:46.the other day that you would keep the option of stripping Abellio of
:45:47. > :45:52.the ScotRail franchise. That could happen when's there are a few ways
:45:53. > :45:58.that could happen. One is performance dips between 83.4% for
:45:59. > :46:02.three consecutive months. That is one way it could happen. What I
:46:03. > :46:06.would also say it is that alternatives in terms of the public
:46:07. > :46:11.sector bed is something I am exploring and looking at committing
:46:12. > :46:17.to bring forward. When could that happen? The contract could be
:46:18. > :46:20.terminated if performance falls below 83.4% that is when you would
:46:21. > :46:23.start discussions about stripping the contract. You would have a
:46:24. > :46:28.period of time whereby we would have to put other measures in place. We
:46:29. > :46:31.have the operator of last resort if the Scottish Government and
:46:32. > :46:37.transport Scotland had to dig over the railways tomorrow. We have
:46:38. > :46:40.contingency in place. -- take over. We have the operator of last resort
:46:41. > :46:47.to do that. If it came to that point, you would resign. If it came
:46:48. > :46:51.to the point that you had to strip a world leading railway operator of
:46:52. > :46:54.its contract and you either transport minister, could hardly
:46:55. > :47:00.say, I have been a great success and I am going to continue. My job is to
:47:01. > :47:05.make sure that Abellio make an live up to the standards of that
:47:06. > :47:09.contract. If they do not and if they underperform, I will hold them to
:47:10. > :47:13.account. That is my job. Abellio's job is to run the railway and the
:47:14. > :47:19.franchise. My job is to hold them to account. If they do not perform and
:47:20. > :47:26.if the fault below that threshold, of course their contract will be
:47:27. > :47:28.terminated. -- fall below. Either no circumstances in which she would
:47:29. > :47:34.resign? No, I am not suggesting that. I am not here to discuss
:47:35. > :47:41.whether I will resign. This is not about me. This is about making sure
:47:42. > :47:43.Abellio... It is about you. You either transport minister. It is
:47:44. > :47:48.about making sure Abellio live up to the obligations in the contract. I
:47:49. > :47:52.am responsible for making sure that happens. I am monitoring that daily
:47:53. > :47:56.to make sure it happens. If it does not happen, I will and we will as a
:47:57. > :47:58.Scottish Government take a very serious measures. That could include
:47:59. > :48:14.stripping them of the contract. Is it your current
:48:15. > :48:16.intention that Abellio will not be re-awarded the contract to run
:48:17. > :48:19.ScotRail? Our current position is they have signed a contract until
:48:20. > :48:22.the end of the franchise. There is a break clause in 2020. We're going to
:48:23. > :48:25.put together a public sector bed. I am going to be calling the unions
:48:26. > :48:29.this week and other political parties to join with me any
:48:30. > :48:33.discussion about how we make and put together a viable public sector bed
:48:34. > :48:39.that will be viable and competitive and that is what the alternative
:48:40. > :48:45.that we have put forward will be. That could be ready for 2020. What,
:48:46. > :48:48.Abellio do not get re-awarded the contract? That is not what I am
:48:49. > :48:53.saying. We have a legal contract that we had to procure. We would
:48:54. > :49:01.have liked the feel devilish and of railway powers. That was blocked by
:49:02. > :49:19.other parties in the Smith position. Labour Party
:49:20. > :49:26.Labour are calling for nationalising the railways in Scotland. Due
:49:27. > :49:31.against that? We don't have the powers do so. I would love to have
:49:32. > :49:36.full Devil lotion and full control over the railways. I would like to
:49:37. > :49:42.have the full power, full control over railway powers. Why would you
:49:43. > :49:48.not like to rationalise the railways? No. What's wrong with
:49:49. > :49:52.saying nationalised the railways? I'm not saying I'm entirely against
:49:53. > :49:58.the proposal. I will put together a public sector bed. Why is it wrong
:49:59. > :50:04.to say nationalise the railways? What we have said... You have
:50:05. > :50:12.explained that. Explain to me why it is wrong to... There is an argument
:50:13. > :50:17.that integrating the railways to use the jargon, integrating the
:50:18. > :50:20.operating company and infrastructure... I think it is a
:50:21. > :50:25.very good argument that the railways can be in public ownership and that
:50:26. > :50:29.has been something I have been committed to putting forward. What I
:50:30. > :50:34.have said is that we will put forward a compat at a public sector
:50:35. > :50:39.bed. Let me finish. I will be calling out to other political
:50:40. > :50:45.parties this week and the unions to help us put forward a public sector
:50:46. > :50:51.bed. We do not have the powers to nationalise the mill with. What
:50:52. > :50:57.commuters want to know or are we on top of Abellio, will the performance
:50:58. > :51:00.improved and that is I am determined to do. If Abellio do not improve
:51:01. > :51:04.their performance, if the performance tips, they will be
:51:05. > :51:12.stripped of their contract. You have been asking the British government
:51:13. > :51:23.to devolve ownership over the railways. Would you think the best
:51:24. > :51:31.option would be to integrate the network railway Wescott rain, and
:51:32. > :51:46.make at one company? Network Rail is make at one company? Network Rail is
:51:47. > :51:53.-- why I asked for a full devil lotion of Network Rail was because
:51:54. > :52:02.we do not have control over them as they do real infrastructure projects
:52:03. > :52:05.which are overshooting by hundreds of thousands of pounds. What you are
:52:06. > :52:08.saying is that you would like one public sector company to run the
:52:09. > :52:10.whole infrastructure? You can have a public body to tender for the next
:52:11. > :52:13.round. That is not the same as nationalisation. They could lose
:52:14. > :52:16.after that. Currently we do not have the powerless. I would like the full
:52:17. > :52:25.powers over Network Rail. Currently water allows is for a public sector
:52:26. > :52:31.bed. We have shell companies. You say you want a public sector company
:52:32. > :52:32.to bid for it, a public sector operated company to bid for it. Is
:52:33. > :52:37.anything like that in existence? operated company to bid for it. Is
:52:38. > :52:43.That is the reason I am calling out to the Unionist... Does it exist?
:52:44. > :52:49.The shell companies that exist as the operators... Does a real company
:52:50. > :52:52.exist? No, the reason for that is to bring the unions and, other
:52:53. > :52:59.political parties, what came to company do they want to see setup?
:53:00. > :53:01.That takes time in order to put the bid together. We will be working on
:53:02. > :53:06.that and we have internal work on that, I want to reach out to the
:53:07. > :53:12.unions and other political parties to see if we can put together a
:53:13. > :53:25.public sector bed that is viable. Thank you.
:53:26. > :53:28.to intervene in the legal challenge at the Supreme Court over how
:53:29. > :53:31.And there's been much talk over whether Scotland can remain
:53:32. > :53:34.in the single market if it adopts the so-called "Norway model".
:53:35. > :53:37.It's all getting a bit complicated, so here to make it a bit
:53:38. > :53:38.easier to understand is Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott,
:53:39. > :53:41.who's Anniversary Chair in Law at Queen Mary's University of London
:53:42. > :53:44.and also a special adviser to the Scottish Parliament's European
:53:45. > :53:45.and external affairs committee Brexit inquiry.
:53:46. > :53:52.She speaks to me now in a personal capacity. First of all, the Supreme
:53:53. > :53:56.Court, the fact that the Scottish and Welsh governments, they are
:53:57. > :53:59.allowed to take part, what does that mean in practical terms, what can
:54:00. > :54:04.they do that they can do last week? It means that they can make some new
:54:05. > :54:08.arguments, these arguments were not considered in the High Court case
:54:09. > :54:12.which was won by the claimants, and some of these arguments I believe,
:54:13. > :54:17.although I have not seen the skeleton argument of the Scottish
:54:18. > :54:23.Government, might involve this issue of legislative consent. If approval
:54:24. > :54:29.is needed before the government can trickle and no Article 15 zero of,
:54:30. > :54:31.the argument will be that the Scottish Government, Scottish
:54:32. > :54:36.Parliament will also have to give its consent. This is an issue that
:54:37. > :54:43.has been raised by the Brexit minister, Mike Russell, on several
:54:44. > :54:48.occasions. If the Scottish Government refuse legislative
:54:49. > :54:51.consent, it is excepted that that will not stop Brexit happening. It
:54:52. > :54:57.might create some confusion and difficulties. The general agreement,
:54:58. > :55:02.the consensus seems to be that it is a convention, notwithstanding the
:55:03. > :55:06.parts of been written into the Scotland act 2016, but in the
:55:07. > :55:12.British constitution, the impact of governments ignoring conventions
:55:13. > :55:19.means that although legally they may be able to continue, that
:55:20. > :55:23.Westminster could still legislate, constitutionally that action would
:55:24. > :55:29.be unconstitutional. And that can have considerable consequences. Like
:55:30. > :55:36.what? For example, I give an example from Canada. Which has a legal
:55:37. > :55:42.system is similar in some parts to the British legal system, when the
:55:43. > :55:48.Canadian Prime Minister wanted to be repatriated the Canadian
:55:49. > :55:51.constitution, he ignored a constitutional requirement requiring
:55:52. > :55:56.the quiet -- legislation or consent of Qu bec. That triggered some
:55:57. > :56:03.of Quebec. That triggered some uncomfortable relations and to end
:56:04. > :56:04.the dens -- independence referendums and Qu bec. For the British
:56:05. > :56:07.and Quebec. For the British government to ignore the civil
:56:08. > :56:14.convention, and No vote, would be unconstitutional. We can say that it
:56:15. > :56:17.does not look good if governments act in a manner that is
:56:18. > :56:19.does not look good if governments unconstitutional. It has been
:56:20. > :56:25.suggested by one of the lawyers involved in the court case, that the
:56:26. > :56:28.Scottish Government and the Welsh government could go to the European
:56:29. > :56:37.court of justice and asked them for a ruling that the trigger laying of
:56:38. > :56:43.Article 30 is revoke a ball. -- article 50. If MPs did not like what
:56:44. > :56:47.was going on they could vote against what was going on and that would
:56:48. > :56:53.cancel the triggering of article 50. Does that seem plausible to you or
:56:54. > :56:58.desirable? It is a vexed question, whether the article 50 trigger is
:56:59. > :57:04.reversible or not. There is no wording on it either way. The only
:57:05. > :57:10.institution that can decide that question is the European Tour to
:57:11. > :57:13.justice. If the Institute is raised in the Supreme Court by the Scottish
:57:14. > :57:16.Government, then the question is whether the Supreme Court thinks
:57:17. > :57:21.that a decision on that matter is necessary to determine the case. It
:57:22. > :57:25.might think that and make a reference to the Luxembourg, the
:57:26. > :57:32.European Court of Justice, and that the delayed matters further. And
:57:33. > :57:36.there would be effects of that, of deciding that article 50 was after
:57:37. > :57:41.all reversible. One might be that of two years down the line, the British
:57:42. > :57:48.governments decide after all that Brexit did not mean Brexit, then
:57:49. > :57:53.Britain would not be perhaps out on its knees without any deal at all.
:57:54. > :57:56.So there are also some consequences that could follow. Briefly, there
:57:57. > :58:00.has been much talk of Scotland perhaps being able to Norway stale
:58:01. > :58:06.deal, even if the rest of the UK is perhaps being able to Norway stale
:58:07. > :58:12.out of the single market. Is that plausible? It is perhaps possible
:58:13. > :58:17.but difficult. The first problem is that for that to happen, they would
:58:18. > :58:20.have to be some agreements from the UK Government, because it is the UK
:58:21. > :58:26.Government that negotiates. There would have to be agreement on the
:58:27. > :58:32.side of the EU. I can see that there are sums technical legal problems
:58:33. > :58:34.arising about borders, for example what about classifications of goods
:58:35. > :58:41.if they cross from England into Scotland? And there will be customs
:58:42. > :58:47.unions issues and there would be issues of free movement. In Scotland
:58:48. > :58:52.is in the single market, allowing for free movement of persons, but
:58:53. > :58:55.England and perhaps the rest of the UK is not, then Scottish residents
:58:56. > :59:03.would have rates of free movement that the rest of the UK would not.
:59:04. > :59:08.Would that mean a change of UK passports. So there are some
:59:09. > :59:10.technical problems. All right, we will have to leave it there. Thank
:59:11. > :59:12.you very much for joining us. Expect to hear more
:59:13. > :59:14.about the prospects of Scotland hosting the UK's spaceport later
:59:15. > :59:16.in the week. A Conservative MP is due to ask
:59:17. > :59:19.the Secretary of State David Mundell about discussions with other
:59:20. > :59:20.Government departments on the benefits of locating
:59:21. > :59:22.the facility here. If you were cynical,
:59:23. > :59:25.you might see it as an opportunity for the Westminster government
:59:26. > :59:28.to highlight the opportunities they Be that as it may, it is a reminder
:59:29. > :59:35.that right now there are around 5500 scientists and engineers working
:59:36. > :59:38.in the space sector in Scotland. And many see a spaceport as the next
:59:39. > :00:00.logical development. Scotland is in space, not just the
:00:01. > :00:02.pipes as a tribute to a collie, but in a commercial programme that has
:00:03. > :00:09.been growing over the past few years. With Glasgow alone, there are
:00:10. > :00:18.three companies. One company building five or six spacecraft a
:00:19. > :00:21.month. And another small company has come through and they will be
:00:22. > :00:24.launching their first spacecraft this year and that is within
:00:25. > :00:28.launching their first spacecraft Glasgow. They join the 30,000 or so
:00:29. > :00:36.man-made objects in orbit around Earth. This is the structure, it
:00:37. > :00:40.would be filled with components and some are much larger, a few times is
:00:41. > :00:45.all. My research focuses on how those satellites and objects would
:00:46. > :00:51.actually re-enter our atmosphere and whether they are not whether they
:00:52. > :00:56.hit the ground. But before they can come down, they have to go up. At
:00:57. > :01:02.the moment, launching a Scottish built satellite into space means
:01:03. > :01:04.putting it onto a rocket in the former Soviet Union or French
:01:05. > :01:10.Guiana, but that could change of Scotland gets its own spaceport.
:01:11. > :01:16.Ultimately it's about having that end-to-end capability. We are
:01:17. > :01:20.greater coming up with ideas, we can build the spacecraft, we cannot
:01:21. > :01:23.launch them. There is a gap in the middle that we as the UK need to
:01:24. > :01:28.fill in Scotland is quite well-positioned for that by the
:01:29. > :01:32.nature of the geography of the UK, Scotland has potential locations for
:01:33. > :01:38.that. One personal menu is Prestwick. A satellite is just a
:01:39. > :01:43.different type of cargo. Why do we need a spaceport? At the moment we
:01:44. > :01:49.have no choice to go to Kazakhstan or French Guyana. It is very
:01:50. > :01:52.uncertain to go there, costs a lot of money and it is limiting the
:01:53. > :01:57.growth of the sector. And the main growth is coming from satellites in
:01:58. > :02:02.space. There has been a lot of that in recent years and is being held
:02:03. > :02:06.back. So why should it be on the Ayrshire coast? Affordability is a
:02:07. > :02:09.factor because we do not need to have the same level of investment
:02:10. > :02:14.that some of these places would have to have, but we do have around us is
:02:15. > :02:19.a cluster of aerospace industries which are supporting us, which means
:02:20. > :02:24.that as a business plan, going forward, we can be fairly certain
:02:25. > :02:28.that we can actually make this work. But there are other contenders.
:02:29. > :02:37.Airfields in Stornoway and Mac Hannah show. They are lengthening
:02:38. > :02:39.the airstrip. Plans for a rocket range in the Outer Hebrides were
:02:40. > :02:44.once controversial. Though no there isn't easy as for being home to a
:02:45. > :02:49.spaceport. Britain is going to need a spaceport in future for commercial
:02:50. > :02:56.space vehicles and Stornoway is certainly in the running for that.
:02:57. > :03:01.It has advantages over others. You can launch over the sea without any
:03:02. > :03:03.land getting in the week and various other advantages as well. And the
:03:04. > :03:08.hope is that wherever the spaceport ends up, it will become a hub,
:03:09. > :03:13.attracting more activity and expertise. This spaceport will be an
:03:14. > :03:19.economic boost to the area that comes to. But that will in turn
:03:20. > :03:22.attract other people to the local area to use the test facilities and
:03:23. > :03:27.to just have the access to the engineers and all the other people
:03:28. > :03:29.who will be working in and around that site. That will create a circle
:03:30. > :03:36.that will continue to build the sector. And experts hope that once
:03:37. > :03:42.we have cracked the delivery of satellites into space, it will not
:03:43. > :03:49.be too long before space tourism becomes a reality. That was Hugh
:03:50. > :03:52.Williams reporting. This week the Chancellor Phillip
:03:53. > :03:53.Hammond will deliver his first Autumn Statement, where he updates
:03:54. > :03:56.the UK Government's Mr Hammond has already
:03:57. > :03:58.abandoned his predecessor's plan to achieve a budget surplus by 2020
:03:59. > :04:02.and there's no sign of the emergency budget threatened before
:04:03. > :04:03.the vote for Brexit, I'm joined now by David Phillips
:04:04. > :04:07.who's a Senior Research Economist at The I F S expect a deterioration in
:04:08. > :04:25.the public finances over the next The I F S expect a deterioration in
:04:26. > :04:31.couple of years. How much is this a direct result of Brexit? We have
:04:32. > :04:36.crunched the numbers and we think, given tax revenues are coming in the
:04:37. > :04:40.forecast, about 6 billion deterioration in the public finances
:04:41. > :04:44.will be the result of things happening before Brexit. A far
:04:45. > :04:49.larger part is downgrading the growth forecast over the next couple
:04:50. > :04:54.of years. If we follow suit with an independent forecasters and the
:04:55. > :05:01.growth forecasts. That'll be a bigger impact on the Government tax
:05:02. > :05:06.spending. We found about ?25 billion lower revenues and ?5 billion higher
:05:07. > :05:11.spending as a result of this law economy. That follows on from the
:05:12. > :05:16.Brexit boat. The problem with this is that there has been all sorts of
:05:17. > :05:20.talk about a big programme of investing in infrastructure to
:05:21. > :05:27.create a fiscal stimulus. That becomes less possible as the budget
:05:28. > :05:32.deteriorates anyway. Indeed. When you have a large stock of debt, the
:05:33. > :05:37.Government debt is over 80% of GDP and we have a budget deficit, is
:05:38. > :05:40.harder to find more money to spend an infrastructure or to boost
:05:41. > :05:43.spending. On the other hand, interest rates are low at the
:05:44. > :05:49.moment. We might see it's a good time to take advantage of that and
:05:50. > :05:52.invest in infrastructure and also to provide a longer term based in
:05:53. > :05:57.productivity. I think what we have seen so far from the drip feed of
:05:58. > :06:06.information from the Treasury is that we are not looking at a very
:06:07. > :06:08.large fiscal stimulus. We're not looking at tens of billions of
:06:09. > :06:13.pounds but is smaller stimulus. We have seen measures on transport on
:06:14. > :06:17.roads in England and housing... The problem here though is that there is
:06:18. > :06:25.smoke and mirrors, couldn't there be? The chancellors and out every
:06:26. > :06:31.year that that is going to big spending envelope structure. George
:06:32. > :06:36.Osborne was always on about it. -- infrastructure. Governments would
:06:37. > :06:42.announce capital spending projects. They do not amount to a fiscal
:06:43. > :06:48.stimulus. I think that is the big question. How much of this is a
:06:49. > :06:53.boost to underlying spending? Is it new spending measures or is it just
:06:54. > :06:58.putting labels to be spending already announced? I think there
:06:59. > :07:01.will be a small boost in the short-term but I think you are right
:07:02. > :07:06.in saying that this is not the end of a sturdy. What this is is a
:07:07. > :07:15.potential slowing down of austerity. They are targeting a surplus budget
:07:16. > :07:16.for 2020. The longer term plan is for a budget surplus. Delayed rather
:07:17. > :07:22.than abandoned. Very briefly, jam is for a budget surplus. Delayed rather
:07:23. > :07:26.the new thing we have to talk about. These are people who are just making
:07:27. > :07:31.it through. Theresa May would like to do something for them, it is sad.
:07:32. > :07:38.10 million of them and it is very expensive. Is there anything she can
:07:39. > :07:42.do. I do not agree with the big measures on tax year. We not
:07:43. > :07:46.expecting that in the statement. What we might see is a small
:07:47. > :07:50.increase in personal allowance. That would impact on Scotland because
:07:51. > :07:56.that has not been devolved. We might see something on air passenger duty
:07:57. > :08:00.and fuel duty. Also the cuts to benefits. The real term free...
:08:01. > :08:04.Sorry, the tax freeze has been an ounce because of the higher
:08:05. > :08:05.inflation. David Phillips, thank you very much indeed.
:08:06. > :08:09.It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's
:08:10. > :08:18.With me now is the Scotland Editor of the Guardian Severin Carrell
:08:19. > :08:25.and Investigations Editor at the Sunday Herald Paul Hutcheon.
:08:26. > :08:34.Severin Carrell, the politics of the Autumn Statement, do you think there
:08:35. > :08:37.is a chance that he is going to come out and say there is a big
:08:38. > :08:44.deterioration in finances because of Brexit and the hard Brexit, they
:08:45. > :08:50.were mixers out to be an attempt to counter to by Philip Hammond. They
:08:51. > :08:54.might do. The politics to them is as much as the Tory's position. They
:08:55. > :08:58.are going to be concerned about whether Philip Hammond is able to
:08:59. > :09:03.deal with the smaller topics that ordinary voters are concerned about.
:09:04. > :09:06.The quality of roads, the very detailed and mundane aspects of
:09:07. > :09:11.daily life. The macro politics around whether Brexit is going to be
:09:12. > :09:12.disastrous to the economy is something that put cold parties and
:09:13. > :09:17.disastrous to the economy is that cult leadership will feed on.
:09:18. > :09:20.What Philip Hammond knows is that his party 's trusted more than any
:09:21. > :09:26.other in Westminster with the economy. There was a poll today
:09:27. > :09:31.saying that 40% of voters trust the Tories with the economy. That'll
:09:32. > :09:39.make you feel much more confident. The old BR will be a serious issue
:09:40. > :09:41.with him. The Brexiteer is all when to rally around him rather than pick
:09:42. > :09:48.with him. The Brexiteer is all when a fight with them. The investigative
:09:49. > :09:52.powers Bill was passed by the House of Lords this week. The snapper
:09:53. > :09:59.charge at some call it. You are worried about this. What are your
:10:00. > :10:07.worried about? Following the Edward Snowden revelations, the Government
:10:08. > :10:12.want to get powers that the security services have had. We have gone
:10:13. > :10:16.further than people expected. What Internet service providers now have
:10:17. > :10:20.to do it legally is hold onto people's browser history for 12
:10:21. > :10:27.months, which can then be accessed by Lauren Forstmann agencies and
:10:28. > :10:34.MI5. Don't be do that already? -- law enforcement agencies. You have
:10:35. > :10:39.this collection of data but also this police power now that is God
:10:40. > :10:49.equipment interference and they can access your phone. -- police
:10:50. > :10:52.equipment interference. That story in the Herald last week, I wonder
:10:53. > :10:56.what he got that information, if they got the judge to improve and
:10:57. > :11:00.the sees the computers and go through it and get your Internet
:11:01. > :11:04.company to tell them where you have been browsing. There is a separate
:11:05. > :11:11.element for journalists. They have to get additional information. The
:11:12. > :11:16.journalist is not informed. It is all heard in private and the
:11:17. > :11:21.journalist would never know about it. I am guessing the Guardian are
:11:22. > :11:27.not mass of fans about this either? We are not fans of it either. We are
:11:28. > :11:30.unhappy it has gone through without any opposition. There has been very
:11:31. > :11:37.little debate about this. Like a lot of other things in daily particle
:11:38. > :11:42.life and the life of the Government, everything has been obscured by the
:11:43. > :11:44.EU referendum. I just wonder if this is... I happen to know that young
:11:45. > :11:48.EU referendum. I just wonder if this people are very interested in this
:11:49. > :11:54.particular issue and it is an issue with the media and the young people
:11:55. > :12:01.do seem to have very serious concerns. That is true but ordinary
:12:02. > :12:06.voters may be comfortable with this. We are already one of the most
:12:07. > :12:11.surveyed societies in the world. We have a higher level of CCTV
:12:12. > :12:14.surveillance in our ordinary life. It may be that the British
:12:15. > :12:19.electorate as a whole are relatively sanguine about it. People like
:12:20. > :12:23.myself and Paul and others whose job it is to challenge and investigate
:12:24. > :12:30.and probe feel deeply unhappy about it. We are making efforts to try and
:12:31. > :12:33.get past it. Brexit, Paul, shown that was very clear in expelling
:12:34. > :12:38.some of the legal things. Does this amount any more than tossing a load
:12:39. > :12:44.of spanners in the general direction and hoping they get caught up in it.
:12:45. > :12:48.I had a chat with a couple of civil servants this week you were speaking
:12:49. > :12:52.privately and anonymously they do not think that the Scottish
:12:53. > :12:53.intervention is going to amount to much at all. I think it is more
:12:54. > :12:58.intervention is going to amount to about the symbolism and gesture of
:12:59. > :13:05.it. Being seen to do something. In the final analysis built in the
:13:06. > :13:06.Scottish Parliament a say, will it be blocking Brexit? Of course it
:13:07. > :13:14.want. It is based and not legally be blocking Brexit? Of course it
:13:15. > :13:24.binding. I just wonder whether the legal rout of just triggering
:13:25. > :13:28.Article 50, having to decide on what Brexit will be when the British
:13:29. > :13:32.Government has finished its negotiations. Simply MPs will want
:13:33. > :13:36.to say we will decide that. There are some in a different actors MS
:13:37. > :13:42.that this could go on Sony different directions. The Supreme Court
:13:43. > :13:50.decision is expected early next year. Having European judges...
:13:51. > :13:54.Surely MPs are saying... This could go on and on. There is no doubt
:13:55. > :13:59.about it at all. The layers of complexity are so great that I think
:14:00. > :14:04.some people are strapping themselves in for some years of legal conflict.
:14:05. > :14:05.We will have to leave it there. Thank you to the both of you.
:14:06. > :14:09.I'll be back at the same time next week.
:14:10. > :14:22.is announcing the first Autumn Statement since the EU referendum.
:14:23. > :14:24.The BBC will explain what that means for you,
:14:25. > :14:28.with live coverage and expert analysis.