:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:49.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:50. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:13.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:14. > :01:15.And on Sunday Politics Scotland, I'll be speaking to the Scottish
:01:16. > :01:17.Secretary David Mundell about the Autumn Statement,
:01:18. > :01:20.And we'll take a look at how Stirling will benefit
:01:21. > :01:35.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:36. > :01:38.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:39. > :01:45.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:46. > :01:47.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:48. > :01:51.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:52. > :01:56.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:57. > :01:59.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:02:00. > :02:03.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:04. > :02:05.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:06. > :02:10.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:11. > :02:13.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:14. > :02:17.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:18. > :02:21.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:22. > :02:23.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:24. > :02:26.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:27. > :02:29.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:30. > :02:44.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:45. > :02:49.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:50. > :02:56.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:57. > :03:00.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:01. > :03:04.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:05. > :03:07.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:08. > :03:11.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:12. > :03:16.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:17. > :03:20.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:21. > :03:25.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:26. > :03:31.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:32. > :03:34.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:35. > :03:40.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:41. > :03:44.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:45. > :03:49.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:50. > :03:56.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:57. > :03:59.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:04:00. > :04:01.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:02. > :04:08.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:09. > :04:12.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:13. > :04:18.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:19. > :04:22.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:23. > :04:29.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:30. > :04:33.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:34. > :04:41.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:42. > :04:52.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:53. > :04:55.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:56. > :05:04.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:05. > :05:09.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:10. > :05:13.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:14. > :05:17.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:18. > :05:23.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:24. > :05:27.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:28. > :05:34.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:35. > :05:42.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:43. > :05:48.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:49. > :05:54.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:55. > :06:01.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:02. > :06:05.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:06. > :06:11.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:12. > :06:28.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:29. > :06:34.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:35. > :06:41.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:42. > :06:45.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:46. > :06:49.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:50. > :06:56.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:57. > :07:01.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:02. > :07:04.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:05. > :07:09.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:10. > :07:15.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:16. > :07:19.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:20. > :07:24.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:25. > :07:28.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:29. > :07:35.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:36. > :07:42.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:43. > :07:46.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:47. > :07:55.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:56. > :07:58.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:59. > :07:59.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:00. > :08:03.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:04. > :08:07.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:08. > :08:10.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:11. > :08:17.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:18. > :08:20."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:21. > :08:26.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:27. > :08:29.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:30. > :08:35.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:36. > :08:38.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:39. > :08:43.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:44. > :08:50.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:51. > :08:52.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:53. > :08:58.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:59. > :09:00.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:01. > :09:03.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:04. > :09:06.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:07. > :09:12.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:13. > :09:25.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:26. > :09:27.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:28. > :09:29.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:30. > :09:33.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:34. > :09:37.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:38. > :09:40.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:41. > :09:42.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:43. > :09:50.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:51. > :09:55.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:56. > :09:57.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:58. > :10:01.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:02. > :10:03.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:04. > :10:07.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:08. > :10:11.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:12. > :10:17.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:18. > :10:20.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:21. > :10:27.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:28. > :10:33.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:34. > :10:35.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:36. > :10:38.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:39. > :10:40.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:41. > :10:44.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:45. > :10:48.provide better services and save money.
:10:49. > :10:53.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:54. > :10:55.in the health service and local government,
:10:56. > :11:02.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:03. > :11:05.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:06. > :11:11.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:12. > :11:18.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:19. > :11:23.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:24. > :11:26.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:27. > :11:30.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:31. > :11:38.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:39. > :11:42.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:43. > :11:44.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:45. > :11:47.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:48. > :11:56.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:57. > :12:01.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:02. > :12:04.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:05. > :12:10.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:11. > :12:12.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:13. > :12:17.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:18. > :12:21.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:22. > :12:24.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:25. > :12:29.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:30. > :12:35.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:36. > :12:40.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:41. > :12:43.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:44. > :12:48.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:49. > :12:50.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:51. > :12:56.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:57. > :13:03.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:04. > :13:05.are in the interests of local people.
:13:06. > :13:07.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:08. > :13:09.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:10. > :13:16.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:17. > :13:21.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:22. > :13:24.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:25. > :13:41.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:42. > :13:45.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:46. > :13:50.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:51. > :13:54.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:55. > :13:57.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:58. > :14:01.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:02. > :14:05.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:06. > :14:08.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:09. > :14:13.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:14. > :14:17.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:18. > :14:25.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:26. > :14:31.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:32. > :14:34.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:35. > :14:42.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:43. > :14:48.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:49. > :14:51.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:52. > :14:56.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:57. > :14:58.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:59. > :15:05.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:06. > :15:09.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:10. > :15:14.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:15. > :15:17.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:18. > :15:23.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:24. > :15:26.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:27. > :15:30.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:31. > :15:35.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:36. > :15:40.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:41. > :15:47.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:48. > :15:54.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:55. > :15:59.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:00. > :16:04.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:05. > :16:10.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:11. > :16:15.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:16. > :16:21.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:22. > :16:25.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:26. > :16:30.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:31. > :16:34.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:35. > :16:38.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:39. > :16:42.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:43. > :16:47.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:48. > :16:54.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:55. > :17:00.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:01. > :17:04.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:05. > :17:07.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:08. > :17:13.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:14. > :17:20.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:21. > :17:26.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:27. > :17:31.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:32. > :17:36.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:37. > :17:41.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:42. > :17:48.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:49. > :17:59.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:18:00. > :18:05.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:06. > :18:09.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:10. > :18:15.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:16. > :18:20.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:21. > :18:24.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:25. > :18:28.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:29. > :18:35.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:36. > :18:47.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:48. > :18:50.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:51. > :18:59.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:19:00. > :19:03.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:04. > :19:07.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:08. > :19:12.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:13. > :19:16.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:17. > :19:20.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:21. > :19:24.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:25. > :19:30.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:31. > :19:33.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:34. > :19:36.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:37. > :19:41.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:42. > :19:46.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:47. > :19:51.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:52. > :19:55.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:56. > :20:00.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:01. > :20:05.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:06. > :20:08.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:09. > :20:17.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:18. > :20:22.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:23. > :20:27.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:28. > :20:33.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:34. > :20:38.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:39. > :20:42.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:43. > :20:50.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:51. > :20:56.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:57. > :21:03.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:04. > :21:07.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:08. > :21:11.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:12. > :21:15.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:16. > :21:21.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:22. > :21:28.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:29. > :21:32.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:33. > :21:36.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:37. > :21:40.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:41. > :21:45.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:46. > :21:48.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:49. > :21:52.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:53. > :21:56.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:57. > :22:04.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:05. > :22:09.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:10. > :22:13.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:14. > :22:17.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:18. > :22:21.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:22. > :22:25.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:26. > :22:28.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:29. > :22:33.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:34. > :22:40.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:41. > :22:47.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:48. > :22:53.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:54. > :22:57.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:58. > :23:01.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:02. > :23:05.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:06. > :23:09.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:10. > :23:12.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:13. > :23:16.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:17. > :23:20.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:21. > :23:24.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:25. > :23:30.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:31. > :23:34.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:35. > :23:40.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:41. > :23:46.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:47. > :23:49.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:50. > :23:54.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:55. > :23:59.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:24:00. > :24:02.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:03. > :24:08.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:09. > :24:13.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:14. > :24:19.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:20. > :24:24.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:25. > :24:30.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:31. > :24:36.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:37. > :24:40.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:41. > :24:44.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:45. > :24:47.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:48. > :24:54.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:55. > :24:56.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:57. > :25:00.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:01. > :25:05.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:06. > :25:10.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:11. > :25:12.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:13. > :25:15.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:16. > :25:17.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:18. > :25:20.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:21. > :25:23.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:24. > :25:26.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:27. > :25:28.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:29. > :25:31.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:32. > :25:34.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:35. > :25:38.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:39. > :25:41.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:42. > :25:43.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:44. > :25:50.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:51. > :25:52.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:53. > :25:54.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:55. > :25:56.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:57. > :26:00.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:01. > :26:04.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:05. > :26:06.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:07. > :26:08.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:09. > :26:13.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:14. > :26:17.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:18. > :26:21.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:22. > :26:25.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:26. > :26:28.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:29. > :26:31.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:32. > :26:35.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:36. > :26:40.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:41. > :26:44.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:45. > :26:47.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:48. > :26:49."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:50. > :26:57.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:58. > :27:00.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:01. > :27:04.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:05. > :27:05.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:06. > :27:18.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:19. > :27:23.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:24. > :27:30.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:31. > :27:33.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:34. > :27:38.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:39. > :27:44.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:45. > :27:51.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:52. > :27:58.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:59. > :28:02.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:03. > :28:06.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:07. > :28:11.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:12. > :28:19.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:20. > :28:25.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:26. > :28:29.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:30. > :28:34.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:35. > :28:38.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:39. > :28:42.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:43. > :28:47.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:48. > :28:51.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:52. > :28:55.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:56. > :29:00.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:01. > :29:06.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:07. > :29:10.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:11. > :29:14.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:15. > :29:17.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:18. > :29:25.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:26. > :29:30.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:31. > :29:34.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:35. > :29:39.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:40. > :29:43.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:44. > :29:49.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:50. > :29:53.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:54. > :29:56.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:57. > :30:00.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:01. > :30:06.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:07. > :30:11.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:12. > :30:16.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:17. > :30:20.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:21. > :30:25.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:26. > :30:29.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:30. > :30:31.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:32. > :30:41.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:42. > :30:45.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:46. > :30:47.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:48. > :30:49.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:50. > :30:55.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:56. > :30:59.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:31:00. > :31:02.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:03. > :31:06.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:07. > :31:10.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:11. > :31:16.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:17. > :31:19.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:20. > :31:24.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:25. > :31:28.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:29. > :31:31.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:32. > :31:37.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:38. > :31:44.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:45. > :31:51.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:52. > :31:54.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:55. > :32:01.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:02. > :32:06.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:07. > :32:10.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:11. > :32:17.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:18. > :32:21.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:22. > :32:26.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:27. > :32:32.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:33. > :32:42.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:43. > :32:50.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:51. > :32:55.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:56. > :32:59.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:00. > :33:02.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:03. > :33:10.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:11. > :33:13.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:14. > :33:21.keep asking, when are you going to that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson
:33:22. > :33:22.has obviously not been paying attention. You ask me that question
:33:23. > :33:33.has obviously not been paying at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:34. > :33:36.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:37. > :33:42.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:43. > :33:46.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:47. > :33:51.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:52. > :34:03.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:04. > :34:07.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:08. > :34:16.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:17. > :34:27.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:28. > :34:32.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:33. > :34:34.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:35. > :34:43.I don't remember when he said that. I don't remember when he said that.
:34:44. > :34:49.-- you have to put that in context. Independent, 19th of September. That
:34:50. > :34:52.is a decision on the outcome. The central point is that the British
:34:53. > :34:58.people voted for departure, not a destination. In response to the
:34:59. > :35:03.claim that this is undemocratic, if it is democratic to have one
:35:04. > :35:06.referendum, how can it be undemocratic to have two?
:35:07. > :35:08.referendum, how can it be Paterson, the British government, on
:35:09. > :35:13.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:14. > :35:19.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:20. > :35:24.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:25. > :35:26.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:27. > :35:30.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:31. > :35:36.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:37. > :35:43.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:44. > :35:50.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:51. > :35:53.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:54. > :36:00.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:01. > :36:03.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:04. > :36:09.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:10. > :36:14.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:15. > :36:18.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:19. > :36:26.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:27. > :36:28.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:29. > :36:32.very Brussels elite - were ask your answer, we will keep asking the
:36:33. > :36:39.question. Did it with the Irish and French. It is... It would really
:36:40. > :36:46.anger the British people, would it not? That is an interesting
:36:47. > :36:50.question, Andrew. I don't think it would. All the evidence I see in
:36:51. > :36:53.public meetings I attended, and I think it is beginning to show in the
:36:54. > :36:56.opinion polls, although there hasn't been a proper one on this yet, I
:36:57. > :37:00.suspect there is a majority in Britain who would wish to see a
:37:01. > :37:05.second referendum on the outcome. They take the same view as I do.
:37:06. > :37:10.What began with an open democratic process cannot end with a government
:37:11. > :37:15.stitch up. Contrary to what Owen suggests, there is public support
:37:16. > :37:20.for this. And far from damaging the government and the political class,
:37:21. > :37:27.it showed that we are prepared to listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown,
:37:28. > :37:35.have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew, as you well know, I have eaten five
:37:36. > :37:38.hats. You cannot have a second referendum until you eat your hat on
:37:39. > :37:45.my programme. We will leave it there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen
:37:46. > :37:48.Paterson, thank you much. I have eaten a hat on your programme. I
:37:49. > :37:50.don't remember! It's just gone 11.35,
:37:51. > :37:58.you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome
:37:59. > :38:00.to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme,
:38:01. > :38:03.in a moment, I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary,
:38:04. > :38:04.David Mundell, which powers he thinks should be devolved
:38:05. > :38:09.to Scotland as a result of Brexit. Nicola Sturgeon heads to Dublin this
:38:10. > :38:12.week to talk Business and Brexit with Irish politicians,
:38:13. > :38:14.but is this Scottish government diplomatic offensive
:38:15. > :38:19.really getting anywhere? And will a new city deal mean
:38:20. > :38:28.a new renaissance for Stirling? Could even more powers be devolved
:38:29. > :38:31.to Holyrood as a result of the UK's That appears to be the indication
:38:32. > :38:37.from the Scottish Secretary It comes against the backdrop
:38:38. > :38:40.of more capital investment for Scotland, which was announced
:38:41. > :38:58.in this week's Autumn Statement. David Mundell, first of all, on the
:38:59. > :39:02.Autumn Statement, there was much fuss made about helping ordinary
:39:03. > :39:05.families, wasn't there? The issue for fiscal studies reckons that
:39:06. > :39:08.families, wasn't there? The issue people on average earnings are still
:39:09. > :39:12.not earning as much as they did before the financial crash, and will
:39:13. > :39:17.not be earning as much as they did before the financial crash by the
:39:18. > :39:22.end of the forecasting period, which is 2020-21. That can't be something
:39:23. > :39:28.you are particularly proud of. What we've tried to do in the Autumn
:39:29. > :39:33.Statement is specifically help those people and help those people by
:39:34. > :39:38.increasing the personal allowance, help people on the lowest wages by
:39:39. > :39:45.increasing the national living wage, by changing the taper on universal
:39:46. > :39:50.credit. But nobody is denying, and the Chancellor didn't deny in his
:39:51. > :39:54.Autumn Statement, the challenging circumstances that we face. He
:39:55. > :39:58.didn't deny the Prime minister's statement that more needs to be done
:39:59. > :40:03.to support those very people, people who are just getting by. And that
:40:04. > :40:07.will be very much the focus of her government and its policies. The
:40:08. > :40:11.Resolution Foundation estimates all the budget measures, including the
:40:12. > :40:15.ones you mentioned, only take away 7% of the cuts that people on
:40:16. > :40:22.universal credit face because of the freezing of benefits. How is that
:40:23. > :40:28.helping ordinary people? Well, it is a change to the taper, so that it
:40:29. > :40:34.is, I think, fairer. It means that the incentive and benefit of being
:40:35. > :40:39.in work is clear, which is what universal credit is all about.
:40:40. > :40:43.That's what the focus of Theresa May's government is going to be on,
:40:44. > :40:49.it's going to be on helping people who are just getting by. That's why
:40:50. > :40:53.the budget sought to take a greater proportion of income tax from those
:40:54. > :40:58.on the highest earnings, closing down even more tax avoidance, tax
:40:59. > :41:02.evasion schemes, so that there was a greater fairness in the system. Of
:41:03. > :41:07.course, what the Chancellor also made absolutely clear is that there
:41:08. > :41:10.would be no changes to existing benefit proposals that have been
:41:11. > :41:15.previously announced, there will be no further cuts to benefits, which
:41:16. > :41:21.is something that should be welcomed. You've been talking in an
:41:22. > :41:24.interview in the Sunday Times today about how more powers could come to
:41:25. > :41:29.the Scottish Parliament as a result of Brexit. Can you give us any
:41:30. > :41:37.specific examples of what you have in mind? What I think, Gordon,
:41:38. > :41:42.hasn't been fully understood and is only just beginning to be debated,
:41:43. > :41:47.which is what I want to encourage, is that by leaving the EU, that will
:41:48. > :41:52.have a fundamental change and the devolved settlement here in Scotland
:41:53. > :41:55.and, indeed, elsewhere in the United Kingdom because these settlements
:41:56. > :42:00.were predicated on the basis that the UK was in the EU. Therefore,
:42:01. > :42:03.there are a number of powers and responsibilities which are currently
:42:04. > :42:10.exercised by the EU which will have to return to the UK or to Scotland
:42:11. > :42:16.and the other devolved nations. Can you give us any specific examples
:42:17. > :42:19.relating to Scotland? What I want to do is encourage debate, and
:42:20. > :42:24.discussion, on these issues because that is how we've always proceeded
:42:25. > :42:28.in relation to powers in the Scottish Parliament. Self evidently,
:42:29. > :42:35.agriculture and fisheries are two of the issues currently exercised at
:42:36. > :42:38.European level. Both the NFU in Scotland and the Scottish fishermen
:42:39. > :42:42.'s Federation are coming forward with their views as to how these
:42:43. > :42:47.sorts of powers should be taken forward, leaving the EU, but there
:42:48. > :42:50.will be significant powers in the area of the environment, and there
:42:51. > :42:57.will be powers in relation to the criminal justice system as well. And
:42:58. > :43:03.we are at an early stage because we don't know the shape of the final
:43:04. > :43:08.deal. There are areas of other important is that might be included.
:43:09. > :43:12.I think that we need to have a debate and discussion in Scotland on
:43:13. > :43:18.that. We have focused, rightly, in some regards to the single market
:43:19. > :43:22.migration, but one of the most significant differences we could
:43:23. > :43:29.feel in Scotland, post-Brexit, is in the changes to the devolution
:43:30. > :43:34.settlement. On this programme last June, shortly after the referendum,
:43:35. > :43:37.we were talking about another independence referendum, and you
:43:38. > :43:40.made it quite clear you think they should not be won, and I'm sure that
:43:41. > :43:44.is still your position. However, you also said that should the Scottish
:43:45. > :43:48.government decide to hold one, the British government shouldn't stop
:43:49. > :43:53.them doing it. I'll quote you. The people of Scotland ultimately
:43:54. > :43:59.determined they want to have another referendum, there will be one. Is
:44:00. > :44:03.that still your position? The position that I have set out and the
:44:04. > :44:06.Prime Minister has I think is absolutely consistent with that. Of
:44:07. > :44:16.course, there could be another referendum, that is a process issue.
:44:17. > :44:21.The British government should not stop it? Of course they shouldn't.
:44:22. > :44:25.We have had an independence referendum. I believe we should
:44:26. > :44:29.abide by the Edinburgh agreement and respect the outcome of that
:44:30. > :44:36.referendum. The Scottish government's own consultation paper
:44:37. > :44:38.on a referendum recognises that referendum would require an
:44:39. > :44:42.agreement of the UK Government and would require legislation in the
:44:43. > :44:49.Westminster Parliament. So, they know what the processes. I'm asking
:44:50. > :44:56.you... They want to pursue the issue of having another independence
:44:57. > :44:58.referendum, so another referendum -- independence referendum could only
:44:59. > :45:02.proceed with the agreement of both governments but at the moment the
:45:03. > :45:05.Scottish government haven't put that proposition on the table and I think
:45:06. > :45:10.the argument to continue to be that they be another independence
:45:11. > :45:14.referendum. The overwhelming number of people in Scotland don't want
:45:15. > :45:18.there to be a referendum. Fine, fine, but let me give you another
:45:19. > :45:24.quotation from Ruth Davidson who said on this programme last July,
:45:25. > :45:32."Constitutionally, the UK Government should not block it. No." Would you
:45:33. > :45:36.agree with that statement? What I say is that, you know, what the SNP
:45:37. > :45:44.Scottish government ought to do is they want to get into a process row
:45:45. > :45:48.about... You've said that... But we want to ask... What they
:45:49. > :45:51.shouldn't... They shouldn't be an independence referendum because the
:45:52. > :45:54.people of Scotland have made their decision and the overwhelming
:45:55. > :46:00.majority of people don't want it. But the process is quite clear if
:46:01. > :46:04.there were to be another independence referendum, and the
:46:05. > :46:07.consultation document acknowledges that that the two governments would
:46:08. > :46:15.have to agree on the basis... You've said that about five times now.
:46:16. > :46:19.Because it is the factual position! Ruth Davidson said constitutionally
:46:20. > :46:28.the UK Government should not block it, no. Would you agree with that
:46:29. > :46:31.statement? Yes or no? What I... My position isn't inconsistent with
:46:32. > :46:37.what Ruth's said. So, you do agree with that? Blocking it isn't the
:46:38. > :46:42.what Ruth's said. So, you do agree same as reaching an agreement on it.
:46:43. > :46:45.What we know that is in relation to having an independence referendum,
:46:46. > :46:51.that requires agreement between the two governments. That was the case
:46:52. > :46:52.in relation to the previous referendum, we had the Edinburgh
:46:53. > :46:58.agreement... You've said there is referendum, we had the Edinburgh
:46:59. > :47:02.now about six times. We have set out...! I'm afraid, Gordon, it is
:47:03. > :47:07.because it is the factual position! We know the process the having
:47:08. > :47:09.another referendum. If the Scottish government have a proposal to bring
:47:10. > :47:14.forward another referendum, then they come for to the UK Government
:47:15. > :47:17.and we look to reach agreement on that basis. There isn't such a
:47:18. > :47:19.proposal and I want to continue to argue that they shouldn't be such a
:47:20. > :47:23.proposal because the people of argue that they shouldn't be such a
:47:24. > :47:28.Scotland don't want another independence referendum. I redo the
:47:29. > :47:33.credit in. Constitutionally, the UK Government shouldn't block it, no.
:47:34. > :47:42.All I'm inviting you to say is I agree with that statement. I don't
:47:43. > :47:47.disagree with the statement. I don't think the UK Government would block
:47:48. > :47:50.it. What the UK Government would do... OK, all right... Is seek to
:47:51. > :47:54.reach agreement about the referendum, which is what I have
:47:55. > :48:00.said on the last six or seven occasions. You are, in a sense,
:48:01. > :48:05.Scotland's representative in the Cabinet. You favoured remaining in
:48:06. > :48:06.the EU. And, as you know, most people in Scotland voted to remain
:48:07. > :48:12.in the EU. Are you arguing in the people in Scotland voted to remain
:48:13. > :48:20.Cabinet for staying in the single market? Firstly, the referendum that
:48:21. > :48:26.we had in relation to the EU, Gordon, was whether the UK stayed in
:48:27. > :48:30.the EU. That is what people in Scotland voted on, for the United
:48:31. > :48:34.Kingdom to stay in the EU. I voted that way. I didn't do it on the
:48:35. > :48:39.basis that if I didn't get my own way, Scotland would be dragged out
:48:40. > :48:43.of the United Kingdom and that the whole independence debate would be
:48:44. > :48:45.started up again. That is very regrettable. That isn't what I asked
:48:46. > :48:50.you. Of course, what I'm arguing for regrettable. That isn't what I asked
:48:51. > :48:54.is that Scotland gets the best possible access to the single
:48:55. > :49:00.market. That is access I'd want to see for the whole of the UK. Sorry,
:49:01. > :49:05.I'm not asking you... I don't think we will need to see a separate
:49:06. > :49:09.Scottish deal about access to the single market because I want to see
:49:10. > :49:13.a United Kingdom deal that gives the best possible access to that single
:49:14. > :49:17.market. Yes, I didn't ask you whether they should be a separate
:49:18. > :49:21.Scotland deal, I asked you as whether Scotland's representative in
:49:22. > :49:25.the Cabinet you are arguing for Britain to stay in the single
:49:26. > :49:29.market. I'm arguing for Britain to get the best possible access to that
:49:30. > :49:34.single market. As I've said, the Prime Minister and others have said,
:49:35. > :49:41.the UK is going to get a unique deal in terms of the arrangements that we
:49:42. > :49:46.reach with the EU, in relation to how our access to the market is
:49:47. > :49:51.structured. Our overriding priority is to get the best possible access
:49:52. > :49:55.without barriers and tariffs, which is what we are seeking to achieve
:49:56. > :49:58.because that is in the best interest of Britain and Scotland. There is an
:49:59. > :50:02.because that is in the best interest idea of having a transition period
:50:03. > :50:06.where we stay in the single market of 5-10 years. And that gives both
:50:07. > :50:11.David Davis Liam Fox time to do their trade deals. And it would also
:50:12. > :50:13.give a proper chance to negotiate something with the EU. Is that a
:50:14. > :50:22.good idea? I think we should look to ensure
:50:23. > :50:27.that we can complete the deal with the timescale, of course there are
:50:28. > :50:32.other eventualities and nothing has been ruled out. Nothing has been
:50:33. > :50:37.ruled in in that regard. I genuinely believe that other European
:50:38. > :50:42.countries will want to see is speedy resolution to this issue, they will
:50:43. > :50:46.want to see a definitive arrangement with the United Kingdom, and
:50:47. > :50:51.therefore I think that we will be able to achieve the objective of a
:50:52. > :50:56.deal within the two years of the triggering of article 50.
:50:57. > :50:57.David Mundell, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
:50:58. > :51:00.Later this week Nicola Sturgeon will become the first serving head
:51:01. > :51:03.of a government to address the upper house of the Irish Parliament.
:51:04. > :51:05.She'll also take the opportunity to hold talks with politicians
:51:06. > :51:08.and business leaders and is expected to remind them of the
:51:09. > :51:10."long tradition of co-operation" between Scotland and Ireland.
:51:11. > :51:12.Glenn Cooksley reports on the First Minister's continuing
:51:13. > :51:14.efforts to strengthen Scotland's ties with the EU
:51:15. > :51:27.Two days ago, Nicola Sturgeon was in Cardiff for the first meeting of the
:51:28. > :51:31.British, Irish Council since it convened in July to discuss the
:51:32. > :51:35.outcome of the UK's referendum on EU membership. She outlined her latest
:51:36. > :51:40.thinking on the way ahead for Scotland.
:51:41. > :51:43.There should be an approach that is about staying inside the single
:51:44. > :51:48.market because I think that is the best outcome, or other the least
:51:49. > :51:53.worst outcome, for businesses and a whole range of other interest in the
:51:54. > :51:58.UK and every single nation of the UK.
:51:59. > :52:00.This week she's in Dublin, and as well as addressing the upper house
:52:01. > :52:04.and talking to Irish business people, she is expected to meet the
:52:05. > :52:08.Irish president Michael Higdon 's, who was welcome to Scotland in June.
:52:09. > :52:13.Although it is believed there will be no direct over Brexit, the first
:52:14. > :52:14.list has said she's looking forward to using the Dublin visit to speak
:52:15. > :52:20.about her plans for Scotland but to using the Dublin visit to speak
:52:21. > :52:23.interest in the EU. It will be the latest in a long line of diplomacy
:52:24. > :52:27.by the Scottish Government of further its single market cause. The
:52:28. > :52:31.UK free trade Association and the European economic area, which
:52:32. > :52:37.includes lift and sewing, Iceland and Norway, are denied as potential
:52:38. > :52:40.routes. In addition, there are attempts to strengthen already
:52:41. > :52:45.established ties, including talks with ambassadors, dialogue with
:52:46. > :52:48.politicians abroad, and the formation of the standing Council in
:52:49. > :52:53.Europe, which is advising the Scottish Government in the aftermath
:52:54. > :52:57.of the Brexit vote. Dublin has been seen as the latest opportunity for
:52:58. > :52:59.the First Minister to outline her single market vision for Scotland.
:53:00. > :53:01.Well, I'm joined now by The Scottish Government's Cabinet Secretary
:53:02. > :53:14.This diplomatic offensive to stay in the single market, with a separate
:53:15. > :53:21.Scottish deal, so far you have managed to get the Spanish covenant
:53:22. > :53:24.to say, there is no way Scotland can have a separate deal. The First
:53:25. > :53:31.Minister of Wales has said Scotland cannot have a separate deal, and the
:53:32. > :53:35.trade Mr of Norway has said Scotland cannot join separate from the rest
:53:36. > :53:37.of the UK. If this is a diplomatic success, I would hate to think what
:53:38. > :53:42.of the UK. If this is a diplomatic a failure might look like.
:53:43. > :53:45.You are being offensive in terms of what we are trying to do here.
:53:46. > :53:49.Because you're putting words in the modes of others, you are not
:53:50. > :53:55.understanding... You are not understanding the process. Nobody is
:53:56. > :53:58.negotiating with anybody, because article 50 has not been triggered by
:53:59. > :54:02.the UK Government, and because the UK Government has not set out its
:54:03. > :54:09.own position, other countries are not negotiating. We are expanding
:54:10. > :54:11.Saughton's position. We are not negotiating, we are not saying to
:54:12. > :54:17.the Spanish, this is our position. What we are doing is talking to
:54:18. > :54:23.everybody who agrees with us, and had the BBC covered, has the BBC
:54:24. > :54:28.been at Cardiff, you would have heard what Carwyn Jones said. He was
:54:29. > :54:34.agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon on the importance of the single market but
:54:35. > :54:38.making sure that we have access and participation in the single market,
:54:39. > :54:45.including freedom of movement. That is where we are. That is his
:54:46. > :54:48.position, but what he also said, would you be bubbly don't
:54:49. > :54:51.understand, is that we have to be aware of the positions of the
:54:52. > :54:58.different parts of the United Kingdom. He is interested in what we
:54:59. > :55:01.are developing. That is the current position and it is important to
:55:02. > :55:06.understand that. Clearly I don't understand it. Can
:55:07. > :55:10.you give me some counterexamples to the offensive examples I gave? Can
:55:11. > :55:13.you tell me any politicians in Europe who have said, we think the
:55:14. > :55:17.Scottish Government should have a separate deal from the UK in Europe?
:55:18. > :55:24.Nobody is talking about any deals because the UK has not, as the
:55:25. > :55:26.member state... Can you caught me anyone who has
:55:27. > :55:36.said they can? The pony is -- diplomacy is
:55:37. > :55:42.something you do. We have spoken to ministers in Paris, the Italian
:55:43. > :55:45.government, we have been in Austria, Slovakia, the Czech Republic. People
:55:46. > :55:49.are very sympathetic and understanding of the position
:55:50. > :55:57.Scotland is in, six to 2% of this country voted to remain -- 62%. We
:55:58. > :56:04.want to have the best possible proposition for the UK as a whole,
:56:05. > :56:09.that is our position. We want to see the strongest position for the UK.
:56:10. > :56:15.If they were to visit that back -- put a position forward including
:56:16. > :56:17.freedom of movement, vital to our economic interest, that is what
:56:18. > :56:22.we're trying to the UK Government to do.
:56:23. > :56:27.You can quote me a single person in Europe who has come out and said
:56:28. > :56:35.that is a good idea. -- cannot. If you understood where the EU are,
:56:36. > :56:38.they are operating as a block, they are not saying anything about
:56:39. > :56:42.Scotland. But neither are they saying anything about the UK,
:56:43. > :56:46.because the UK has not set out its position.
:56:47. > :56:49.Except some of them are seeing things about a special deal for
:56:50. > :56:53.Scotland. We have not set out a special deal
:56:54. > :56:57.for Scotland, so how can we comment on something that has not been set
:56:58. > :57:01.out. In this incredibly complex process,
:57:02. > :57:04.what are you hoping to get in Ireland this week?
:57:05. > :57:09.We're building on the continuing relationship we have that we have
:57:10. > :57:13.been building up over a number of years. We have had 12 ministerial
:57:14. > :57:17.visits in Ireland and Scotland over the past year, a lot of business and
:57:18. > :57:20.government interest, and we have spoken to the Irish government in
:57:21. > :57:28.relation to our interest. What did they say?
:57:29. > :57:34.I have also met... What would you like to say?
:57:35. > :57:37.That's the UK Government as a whole should get the best in terms of
:57:38. > :57:39.That's the UK Government as a whole participation in the single market,
:57:40. > :57:45.that protects our economic interest. If that is not possible, to be
:57:46. > :57:49.open-minded to consider a situation that there could be a differentiated
:57:50. > :57:53.deal with in the United Kingdom in terms of what they put forward for
:57:54. > :57:57.article 50. You do want them to say they are
:57:58. > :58:04.sympathetic to that? Remember, the EU 27, with most of
:58:05. > :58:10.the government representatives, ministers and ambassadors of all of
:58:11. > :58:16.the EU 27, they are not prepared to make any statement about any deal,
:58:17. > :58:22.either for the United Kingdom or for Scotland, until Article 50 has been
:58:23. > :58:25.triggered. That is the basic ABC as to what has been happening as part
:58:26. > :58:29.of the process. Your massive unprecedented
:58:30. > :58:34.consultation with the people of Scotland, that comes to an end in a
:58:35. > :58:40.few weeks' time, doesn't it? Tell us what some of the results are.
:58:41. > :58:43.I don't know, I am not counting or allocating looking at the results.
:58:44. > :58:48.But my experience is a lot of interest from people that voted no
:58:49. > :58:53.for Scottish independence but voted to remain in the EU. Very
:58:54. > :58:57.disenchanted with the fact that against their will very likely to be
:58:58. > :59:04.taken out of the EU. A lot of people are rethinking their position.
:59:05. > :59:08.But you don't know the final results?
:59:09. > :59:14.I don't know the final results. When will they be published?
:59:15. > :59:19.It is a listening in the party exercise. I am not part of the
:59:20. > :59:25.consultation process. I am expecting to have the results of what comes
:59:26. > :59:28.forward... There have been suggestions it will
:59:29. > :59:34.not be published. I am not part of the party operation
:59:35. > :59:36.doing that. There has been a lot of campaigning, we have had so many
:59:37. > :59:40.elections and referendums over the last five years.
:59:41. > :59:44.What is the point of view listening if you don't tell the public what
:59:45. > :59:46.you hear? I have spent my time talking to the
:59:47. > :59:51.different governments and nations and ambassadors. I am looking
:59:52. > :59:56.forward to hearing what the results are, but I am not sure what point
:59:57. > :59:59.that will be. What will be interesting is to hear the
:00:00. > :00:05.priorities people have, whether it is the economy, or in terms of
:00:06. > :00:11.services, or Social Security, etc. The independence referendum number
:00:12. > :00:14.two, it is your position still that you will not have another one until
:00:15. > :00:21.the polls show for a substantial period of time that you will win it?
:00:22. > :00:24.The first one was quite clear, there had to be some material change, but
:00:25. > :00:29.also distinct support for independence. We are quite aware
:00:30. > :00:32.that in this very fluctuating period of time, as we know from the EU
:00:33. > :00:38.referendum, and a lack of certainty for what the UK is setting out, that
:00:39. > :00:43.we need a bit more certainty. You still want the polls to be seen,
:00:44. > :00:47.people want this? We want to persuade the UK as a
:00:48. > :00:54.whole, in relation to the... But you still want the polls?
:00:55. > :00:57.I want Scotland to be independent. But the polls are showing that at
:00:58. > :01:04.the moment. Yet you're still going around threatening that saying,
:01:05. > :01:08.promising, you will have a second referendum if you don't get your way
:01:09. > :01:11.in the European Union. But if the polls are still where they are now
:01:12. > :01:14.and you don't get your way in the European Union, the two things that
:01:15. > :01:18.you said, the material change plus support in the polls, both of them
:01:19. > :01:23.contradict each other. Not necessarily. The important thing
:01:24. > :01:27.is to persuade people not to threaten them. That is the point
:01:28. > :01:31.where we have got to make sure we're in a period of listening...
:01:32. > :01:35.Rouble not have an independence referendum even if you get your way
:01:36. > :01:40.in the European Union -- you will not.
:01:41. > :01:45.We want to make sure that we have the options to deliver the best deal
:01:46. > :01:48.for Scotland, and that is why we are consulting on an independence
:01:49. > :01:52.referendum. You will not hold that unless the
:01:53. > :01:57.polls are going your way. We're a long way from considering
:01:58. > :02:01.where we will be. What I am saying is that the two
:02:02. > :02:06.things contradict each other, and you need both of them, don't you?
:02:07. > :02:10.People should read the manifesto, I strongly believe that Scotland would
:02:11. > :02:13.prosper best as an independent nation.
:02:14. > :02:18.But that is not the question I am asking.
:02:19. > :02:20.The period of time we are in is very much fluctuating. People want
:02:21. > :02:24.certainty, the UK is not providing that. We do not know what the
:02:25. > :02:26.prospects for Scotland will be, whether we will be in the single
:02:27. > :02:34.market. You still won't propose to go your
:02:35. > :02:39.way, before the referendum? We were elected on a manifesto on
:02:40. > :02:46.the point of view. In the manifesto is said only if the
:02:47. > :02:49.polls go your way? You had a discussion with David
:02:50. > :02:54.Mundell about the context and the content of the proposition. Europe
:02:55. > :03:00.will be completely different in two years' time. We are living in a
:03:01. > :03:03.period of uncertainty, but we want to set out some certainty and we are
:03:04. > :03:08.trying to do that in the best we possibly, possibly internationally
:03:09. > :03:10.and in the terms of Scotland. Thank you.
:03:11. > :03:12.This week's Autumn Statement was, well, a little flat
:03:13. > :03:16.But one which was by and large welcomed was the proposal
:03:17. > :03:20.The UK government's now discussing schemes like this for each
:03:21. > :03:23.But what does it mean for these areas?
:03:24. > :03:48.If you're into urban regeneration, economic development and all that
:03:49. > :03:52.kind of stuff, then the big buzzword right now is city deal. Essentially
:03:53. > :03:57.it provides public cash to help get local project off the ground, to
:03:58. > :04:01.create jobs. Some parts of Scotland already have city deals, and those
:04:02. > :04:04.that don't have them are trying very hard to get them. This week,
:04:05. > :04:10.Stirling learned it was going to get a city deal from the Chancellor, but
:04:11. > :04:19.how will it work and will it do any good?
:04:20. > :04:23.One of the key projects that the city deal aims to deliver is a new
:04:24. > :04:29.digital district which is going to be based right here in the old
:04:30. > :04:32.headquarters Stirling Council. Local businesses hugely welcome that, they
:04:33. > :04:35.say that is exactly the kind of thing that is needed to grow the
:04:36. > :04:40.economy. This normal looking industrial Park on the edge of
:04:41. > :04:46.sterling is home to businesses of the future. The ploy is of the
:04:47. > :04:52.successful company do not spend all day playing games -- the employees.
:04:53. > :04:57.Most of the time they designed mobile phone apps for a wide range
:04:58. > :05:01.of clients across the UK and beyond. They say the Stirling city deal is a
:05:02. > :05:06.huge opportunity. Having a digital district in the
:05:07. > :05:10.centre will be really impactful. It will start to attract businesses
:05:11. > :05:14.similar to ourselves, technology businesses, into sterling, which
:05:15. > :05:22.will start to allow people to stay in sterling rather than having to
:05:23. > :05:25.leave, Aust -- they will be able to stay in the area. This is going to
:05:26. > :05:31.be one great big reason to come here.
:05:32. > :05:33.One of the key figures behind the bid said winning a city deal was
:05:34. > :05:38.crucial for the economy, and would bid said winning a city deal was
:05:39. > :05:42.provide something which nobody else does.
:05:43. > :05:47.If we didn't see the investment coming into the EU, I think there
:05:48. > :05:53.was a concern that economic growth might go into decline. That is not
:05:54. > :05:59.great for sterling. Neither is it great for the Scottish economy or
:06:00. > :06:04.the UK economy. I don't necessarily see that Stirling competence against
:06:05. > :06:09.the likes of Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, but it does have a niche
:06:10. > :06:13.part in terms of the broader economic growth we are all looking
:06:14. > :06:17.for. In other parts of Scotland, city
:06:18. > :06:20.deals have helped resurrect older projects, like the Glasgow airport
:06:21. > :06:26.rail link, scrapped seven years ago on cost grounds. Fresh plans have
:06:27. > :06:30.been unveiled thanks to Glasgow's billion pound city deal backed by
:06:31. > :06:37.the UK and Scottish governments. Back in Stirling, proposals are also
:06:38. > :06:40.underway to boost leisure and tourism and create a new Civic
:06:41. > :06:45.Quarter. The leader of the local council says now it is time to get
:06:46. > :06:48.on with it. Everyone wants the headline, this is
:06:49. > :06:53.now about how do we deliver on the ground? We spent 18 months building
:06:54. > :06:58.our business cases so that we would be ready to go, and I think it's
:06:59. > :07:01.because Stirling has done so much groundwork, and we are just ready to
:07:02. > :07:05.take those projects forward and make a change in people's lives, it is
:07:06. > :07:16.what it is all about. As more parts of Scotland bid for
:07:17. > :07:20.and win city deals, like Stirling, one concern as they become less
:07:21. > :07:23.about helping those most in need. Then there are areas that might be
:07:24. > :07:31.left out altogether because they can't get one. But, for now, city
:07:32. > :07:35.deals are here to stay, it seems. Let's look back at the events of the
:07:36. > :07:38.past we can see what's coming up in the Week Ahead.
:07:39. > :07:41.With me now is Jenni Davidson of Holyrood Magazine and political
:07:42. > :07:45.commentator at the Sunday Herald, Iain Macwhirter.
:07:46. > :07:58.Let's start with this national... Survey. Competition would be more
:07:59. > :08:03.fun! This was built up to such an extent at the beginning of this
:08:04. > :08:11.year. It was. Hasn't been much talk about it sins. I don't think I heard
:08:12. > :08:19.anything about it. It seems to have fallen flat. I'd almost forgotten
:08:20. > :08:25.about it, it finishes in a few days' time, and there have been no
:08:26. > :08:29.balloons or celebrating. Some suggestions it might not even be
:08:30. > :08:34.public. My understanding is it was for internal use, research the SNP
:08:35. > :08:39.would use themselves, and isn't going to be published afterwards. I
:08:40. > :08:42.suppose it depends what the results are, whether or not they want to
:08:43. > :08:46.publish it, they might want to keep it quiet if they don't like the
:08:47. > :08:51.results. The original idea, Iain, is this would be a process of
:08:52. > :08:55.reformulating the proposal for independence and they would address
:08:56. > :09:03.things like the currency, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that.
:09:04. > :09:08.It was a result of a late-night brainstorm, a special adviser to
:09:09. > :09:13.Nicola Sturgeon. He denies that, but it has gone down in history as being
:09:14. > :09:17.an improvisation, if you like, that was introduced at the last minute to
:09:18. > :09:22.appeared to give something for all the SNP troops to do when they're
:09:23. > :09:27.not campaigning for a second independence referendum. So, it has
:09:28. > :09:32.performed that function. Clearly, it was never intended to be made public
:09:33. > :09:35.but everybody will be asking, obviously, after Friday, just what
:09:36. > :09:40.were the results, and if you're considering the results --
:09:41. > :09:46.concealing the results, they weren't very good, obviously. What about the
:09:47. > :09:53.policies? It is a sensible thing to do to have an inquiry into these key
:09:54. > :09:57.issues which were unresolved by the independence referendum campaign in
:09:58. > :10:00.2014, most notably things like currency, issues about border and
:10:01. > :10:06.relations with Europe. It makes sense. It's no secret that at a time
:10:07. > :10:11.like this, after having two referendums in two years and two
:10:12. > :10:16.Parliamentary elections, it's been an uphill struggle getting people to
:10:17. > :10:19.contemplate the prospect of another referendum under these
:10:20. > :10:31.circumstances. People are fed up with breaks and Trump. Repatriating
:10:32. > :10:35.powers to Scotland, that is... Is a an exaggeration? It is complex. I
:10:36. > :10:38.think the assumption would have been one of the advantages of Brexit is
:10:39. > :10:44.we will get all these powers back from Europe. It isn't necessarily
:10:45. > :10:46.the case that we, as in Scotland, will get them. They will get to the
:10:47. > :10:54.UK Government. There's no obvious will get them. They will get to the
:10:55. > :10:59.repatriation of powers over the environment, agriculture and.
:11:00. > :11:03.Although that is a devolved area. There is lots of international
:11:04. > :11:07.agreement that is involved in that that would be difficult to
:11:08. > :11:10.repatriate without giving the Scottish Parliament and government
:11:11. > :11:14.more powers to do international deals, so it'll be a big question.
:11:15. > :11:19.There are certain things that'll happen automatically. For example,
:11:20. > :11:24.agriculture's devolved so presumably whatever replaces... Whatever
:11:25. > :11:27.replaces the Common Agricultural Policy will be administered in
:11:28. > :11:31.Scotland, but possibly invented in Scotland as a different system using
:11:32. > :11:35.the block grant the Scottish government has, they could invent a
:11:36. > :11:39.different system from England, if they wanted to. It is up in the air
:11:40. > :11:42.and David Mundell was assuming there some kind of logical progression
:11:43. > :11:46.here that because Scotland has powers over these at the moment,
:11:47. > :11:50.when they are repatriated from the ultimate powers from Brussels, they
:11:51. > :11:57.will naturally go to Holyrood. There is no automaticity about that at
:11:58. > :12:00.all. That will have to be decided in this long process of reformulating
:12:01. > :12:04.what the Scottish Parliament's powers are because remember the
:12:05. > :12:12.European communities act is written into the Scotland Act. All Scottish
:12:13. > :12:18.legislation is written into that. It isn't automatic. It assumed things
:12:19. > :12:21.like agriculture and fisheries will devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
:12:22. > :12:25.What is the key question here is what happens to the funding of those
:12:26. > :12:31.policies. I don't think Westminster's going to say, OK,
:12:32. > :12:34.because 40% of the money that has been going into agriculture
:12:35. > :12:39.subsidies. I don't think Westminster is necessarily going to say, OK, you
:12:40. > :12:44.can handle all that revenue stream entirely on your own in future and
:12:45. > :12:50.decide what it is. That's why a lot of the amenities are getting anxious
:12:51. > :12:54.about this. They would drop a British agricultural policy which
:12:55. > :12:59.would not apply in Scotland and through the Barnett formula... That
:13:00. > :13:05.is what the farmers are worried about. Scotland gets 40% of the
:13:06. > :13:11.agricultural subsidies that come to the UK, they go to Scotland. Under
:13:12. > :13:18.the Barnett formula, that would be 8% - 9%, which is why farmers are
:13:19. > :13:22.worried. Briefly, Jenni, diplomatic offensive... I was being offensive
:13:23. > :13:27.by pointing that out! What is your impression of it? My impression is
:13:28. > :13:34.that is going to be difficult to make a case for Scotland having... A
:13:35. > :13:38.different set of international arrangements to be in the single
:13:39. > :13:44.market if the rest of the UK is not. That is clear from what Spain is
:13:45. > :13:46.saying. It would be difficult. We will have to leave it there, thank
:13:47. > :13:48.you very much. I'll be back at the
:13:49. > :13:52.same time next week.