:00:38. > :00:41.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:46. > :00:48.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:49. > :00:52.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:53. > :00:54.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:55. > :00:58.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:59. > :01:09.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:10. > :01:13.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:14. > :01:16.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:17. > :01:18.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:19. > :01:20.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:21. > :01:23.Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:24. > :01:28.And on Sunday Politics Scotland, John Swinney calls for an SFA
:01:29. > :01:33.inquiry into historic child abuse, and assures parents they won't lose
:01:34. > :01:53.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:54. > :01:55.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:56. > :01:57.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:58. > :01:59.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:02:00. > :02:01.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:02. > :02:09.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:10. > :02:14.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:15. > :02:20.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:21. > :02:23.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:24. > :02:26.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:27. > :02:31.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:32. > :02:36.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:37. > :02:38.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:39. > :02:45.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:46. > :02:52.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:53. > :02:57.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:58. > :03:07.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:08. > :03:11.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:12. > :03:14.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:15. > :03:23.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:24. > :03:30.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:31. > :03:35.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:36. > :03:37.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:38. > :03:39."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:40. > :03:53.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:54. > :03:58.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:59. > :04:03.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:04. > :04:05.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:06. > :04:21.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:22. > :04:25.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:26. > :04:28.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:29. > :04:32.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:33. > :04:35.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:36. > :04:40.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:41. > :04:45.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:46. > :04:48.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:49. > :04:56.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:57. > :05:00.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:05:01. > :05:07.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:08. > :05:16.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:17. > :05:19.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:20. > :05:25.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:26. > :05:31.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:32. > :05:36.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:37. > :05:40.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:41. > :05:46.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:47. > :05:52.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:53. > :05:57.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:58. > :06:01.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:02. > :06:05.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:06. > :06:09.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:10. > :06:14.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:15. > :06:17.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:18. > :06:23.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:24. > :06:27.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:28. > :06:30.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:31. > :06:35.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:36. > :06:42.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:43. > :06:46.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:47. > :06:51.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:52. > :06:56.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:57. > :07:02.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:03. > :07:07.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:08. > :07:10.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:11. > :07:15.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:16. > :07:18.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:19. > :07:24.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:25. > :07:30.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:31. > :07:33.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:34. > :07:37.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:38. > :07:43.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:44. > :07:47.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:48. > :07:51.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:52. > :07:58.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:59. > :08:02.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:03. > :08:07.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:08. > :08:12.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:13. > :08:19.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:20. > :08:23.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:24. > :08:26.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:27. > :08:32.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:33. > :08:37.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:38. > :08:41.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:42. > :08:46.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:47. > :08:48.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:49. > :08:51.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:52. > :08:54.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:55. > :08:56.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:57. > :08:58.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:59. > :09:00.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:09:01. > :09:02.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:03. > :09:12.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:13. > :09:14.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:15. > :09:17.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:18. > :09:19.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:20. > :09:21.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:22. > :09:26.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:27. > :09:35.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:36. > :09:38.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:39. > :09:41.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:42. > :09:46.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:47. > :09:51.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:52. > :09:54.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:55. > :09:56.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:57. > :09:59.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:10:00. > :10:04.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:05. > :10:12.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:13. > :10:15.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:16. > :10:17.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:18. > :10:20.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:21. > :10:22.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:23. > :10:25.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:26. > :10:29.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:30. > :10:31.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:32. > :10:33.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:34. > :10:36.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:37. > :10:43.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:44. > :10:46.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:47. > :10:50.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:51. > :10:52.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:53. > :10:58.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:59. > :11:01.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:02. > :11:03.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:04. > :11:08.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:09. > :11:11.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:12. > :11:14.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:15. > :11:16.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:17. > :11:18.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:19. > :11:22.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:23. > :11:24.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:25. > :11:32.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:33. > :11:35.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:36. > :11:39.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:40. > :11:41.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:42. > :11:43.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:44. > :11:49.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:50. > :11:51.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:52. > :11:54.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:55. > :11:56.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:57. > :11:58.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:59. > :12:15.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:16. > :12:18.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:19. > :12:19.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:20. > :12:24.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:25. > :12:26.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:27. > :12:35.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:36. > :12:41.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:42. > :12:43.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:44. > :12:46.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:47. > :12:50.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:51. > :12:54.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:55. > :13:00.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:13:01. > :13:04.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:05. > :13:11.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:12. > :13:16.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:17. > :13:21.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:22. > :13:25.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:26. > :13:28.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:29. > :13:34.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:35. > :13:39.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:40. > :13:42.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:43. > :13:45.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:46. > :13:51.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:52. > :13:57.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:58. > :14:00.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:14:01. > :14:04.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:05. > :14:08.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:09. > :14:11.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:12. > :14:16.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:17. > :14:20.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:21. > :14:24.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:25. > :14:29.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:30. > :14:32.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:33. > :14:37.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:38. > :14:42.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:43. > :14:46.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:47. > :14:50.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:51. > :14:58.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:59. > :15:02.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:03. > :15:10.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:11. > :15:13.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:14. > :15:16.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:17. > :15:20.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:21. > :15:32.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:33. > :15:39.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:40. > :15:45.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:46. > :15:49.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:50. > :15:53.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:54. > :15:57.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:58. > :16:02.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:03. > :16:05.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:06. > :16:09.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:10. > :16:16.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:17. > :16:20.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:21. > :16:30.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:31. > :16:36.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:37. > :16:40.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:41. > :16:43.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:44. > :16:49.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:50. > :16:54.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:55. > :16:58.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:59. > :17:02.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:03. > :17:07.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:08. > :17:13.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:14. > :17:18.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:19. > :17:21.the Prime Minister won't survive so the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:22. > :17:27.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:28. > :17:31.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:32. > :17:35.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:36. > :17:39.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:40. > :17:45.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:46. > :17:53.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:54. > :18:00.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:18:01. > :18:07.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:08. > :18:12.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:13. > :18:20.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:21. > :18:23.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:24. > :18:30.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:31. > :18:34.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:35. > :18:38.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:39. > :18:47.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:48. > :18:50.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:51. > :18:54.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:55. > :18:59.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:19:00. > :19:03.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:04. > :19:11.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:12. > :19:15.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:16. > :19:22.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:23. > :19:29.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:30. > :19:35.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:36. > :19:39.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:40. > :19:44.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:45. > :19:51.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:52. > :19:59.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:20:00. > :20:04.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:05. > :20:08.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:09. > :20:12.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:13. > :20:16.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:17. > :20:23.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:24. > :20:27.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:28. > :20:32.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:33. > :20:39.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:40. > :20:45.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:46. > :20:49.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:50. > :20:53.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:54. > :20:59.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:21:00. > :21:06.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:07. > :21:10.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:11. > :21:14.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:15. > :21:20.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:21. > :21:25.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:26. > :21:29.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:30. > :21:34.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:35. > :21:39.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:40. > :21:51.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:52. > :21:58.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:59. > :22:04.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:05. > :22:08.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:09. > :22:15.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:16. > :22:23.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:24. > :22:28.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:29. > :22:33.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:34. > :22:37.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:38. > :22:39.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:40. > :22:43.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:44. > :22:45.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:46. > :22:48.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:49. > :22:50.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:51. > :22:54.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:55. > :22:56.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:57. > :22:58.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:59. > :23:06.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:07. > :23:09.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:10. > :23:13.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:14. > :23:16.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:17. > :23:19.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:20. > :23:22.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:23. > :23:25.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:26. > :23:31.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:32. > :23:35.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:36. > :23:48.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:49. > :23:51.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:52. > :24:00.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:24:01. > :24:02.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:03. > :24:05.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:06. > :24:08.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:09. > :24:11.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:12. > :24:15.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:16. > :24:17.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:18. > :24:19.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:20. > :24:26.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:27. > :24:28.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:29. > :24:31.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:32. > :24:37.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:38. > :24:41.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:42. > :24:43.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:44. > :24:54.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:55. > :24:59.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:25:00. > :25:03.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:04. > :25:06.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:07. > :25:11.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:12. > :25:15.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:16. > :25:17.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:18. > :25:19.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:20. > :25:27.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:28. > :25:32.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:33. > :25:38.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:39. > :25:47.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:48. > :25:53.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:54. > :25:59.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:26:00. > :26:03.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:04. > :26:13.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:14. > :26:16.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:17. > :26:22.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:23. > :26:26.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:27. > :26:30.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:31. > :26:34.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:35. > :26:39.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:40. > :26:43.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:44. > :26:48.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:49. > :26:55.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:56. > :27:00.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:27:01. > :27:07.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:08. > :27:11.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:12. > :27:17.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:18. > :27:21.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:22. > :27:26.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:27. > :27:31.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:32. > :27:36.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:37. > :27:42.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:43. > :27:45.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:46. > :27:50.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:51. > :27:55.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:56. > :28:00.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:28:01. > :28:06.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:07. > :28:10.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:11. > :28:15.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:16. > :28:19.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:20. > :28:25.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:26. > :28:30.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:31. > :28:33.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:34. > :28:41.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:42. > :28:44.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:45. > :28:50.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:51. > :28:54.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:55. > :28:58.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:59. > :29:02.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:03. > :29:08.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:09. > :29:13.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:14. > :29:17.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:18. > :29:20.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:21. > :29:27.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:28. > :29:32.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:33. > :29:39.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:40. > :29:43.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:44. > :29:48.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:49. > :29:56.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:57. > :29:57.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:58. > :30:09.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:10. > :30:13.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:14. > :30:18.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:19. > :30:23.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:24. > :30:28.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:29. > :30:31.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:32. > :30:37.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:38. > :30:41.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:42. > :30:46.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:47. > :30:51.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:52. > :30:56.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:57. > :31:00.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:31:01. > :31:07.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:08. > :31:14.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:15. > :31:23.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:24. > :31:28.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:29. > :31:34.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:35. > :31:37.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:38. > :31:41.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:42. > :31:44.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:45. > :31:49.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:50. > :31:53.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:54. > :31:59.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:32:00. > :32:03.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:04. > :32:08.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:09. > :32:13.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:14. > :32:20.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:21. > :32:24.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:25. > :32:31.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:32. > :32:35.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:36. > :32:40.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:41. > :32:44.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:45. > :32:50.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:51. > :32:55.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:56. > :33:03.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:04. > :33:07.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:08. > :33:14.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:15. > :33:18.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:19. > :33:23.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:24. > :33:26.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:27. > :33:29.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:30. > :33:32.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:33. > :33:37.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:38. > :33:42.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:43. > :33:47.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:48. > :33:56.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:57. > :34:02.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:03. > :34:08.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:09. > :34:12.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:13. > :34:17.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:18. > :34:23.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:24. > :34:27.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:28. > :34:33.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:34. > :34:36.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:37. > :34:42.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:43. > :34:45.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:46. > :34:50.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:51. > :34:56.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:57. > :34:58.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:59. > :35:02.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:03. > :35:07.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:08. > :35:12.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:13. > :35:18.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:19. > :35:22.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:23. > :35:29.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:30. > :35:34.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:35. > :35:39.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:40. > :35:44.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:45. > :35:49.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:50. > :35:53.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:54. > :35:57.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:58. > :36:00.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:01. > :36:05.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:06. > :36:09.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:10. > :36:10.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:11. > :36:16.intervention. Final point, your stand up for humanitarian
:36:17. > :36:20.party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --
:36:21. > :36:26.Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if
:36:27. > :36:27.you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest
:36:28. > :36:31.you lose the north too, you are Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:32. > :36:35.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:36. > :36:38.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:39. > :36:44.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:45. > :36:47.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:48. > :36:50.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:51. > :36:55.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:56. > :37:00.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:37:01. > :37:02.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:03. > :37:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:08. > :37:09.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:10. > :37:12.Coming up on the programme: John Swinney says the SFA needs
:37:13. > :37:20.to set up an independent inquiry into historic child abuse.
:37:21. > :37:28.Also, how will the Scottish Government use its new tax powers
:37:29. > :37:37.And Brexit - the Christmas tree connection.
:37:38. > :37:42.I was treated like an equally here and I could work and live a study as
:37:43. > :37:46.much as I want to. The big question is what's going to happen now is
:37:47. > :37:49.back The Scottish Football Association
:37:50. > :37:53.into historic child abuse, says the Deputy First Minister and
:37:54. > :37:56.He says he won't extend a current inquiry into abuse
:37:57. > :37:59.of children in care to look at the latest allegations.
:38:00. > :38:01.He's also dismissed fears that a shake up of school inspections
:38:02. > :38:05.will give parents less information on standards and says, this week,
:38:06. > :38:07.more figures on Scotland's schools will be released.
:38:08. > :38:15.I spoke to John Swinney just before we came on air.
:38:16. > :38:23.can I start by asking about things in the papers this morning about
:38:24. > :38:27.changes to the inspection regime and worries that parents will not have
:38:28. > :38:32.as much information as they do now to enable them to know how this
:38:33. > :38:36.school is doing compared to other schools in the area? Is that going
:38:37. > :38:42.to happen or can you guarantee it will not happen? What were doing
:38:43. > :38:44.with the inspection approaches make and Europeans get more information
:38:45. > :38:48.with the inspection approaches make about performance of the young
:38:49. > :38:51.people within schools and the full inspections that take place just
:38:52. > :38:54.know it will continue to take place and all of the information that goes
:38:55. > :39:00.with that will be shared with parents. We have worked closely with
:39:01. > :39:04.the Scottish parent teacher Council to find additional ways in which we
:39:05. > :39:08.can assess the performance of schools and sure that information
:39:09. > :39:13.directly with parents. The heart of what I want to take forward is much
:39:14. > :39:16.more open information about the performance of schools in the whole
:39:17. > :39:21.education system in Scotland and at the heart of that means parents
:39:22. > :39:24.being well informed about the performance of schools. You can
:39:25. > :39:28.guarantee there will be nothing parents can know already about how
:39:29. > :39:33.their school is doing relative to others that they will not knowing
:39:34. > :39:41.the future? I can guarantee that, yes. The PISA results, you said they
:39:42. > :39:46.weren't a surprise because there have been bad figures recently in
:39:47. > :39:51.Scotland itself. You are keen not to blame curriculum for excellence. If
:39:52. > :39:53.it's not the fall of curriculum Freckleton -- excellence, can you
:39:54. > :40:01.explain why Scotland is falling down the league tables? The information
:40:02. > :40:05.that came out this week is information that reinforces what we
:40:06. > :40:10.find out in the spring of 2015 from the Scottish survey of literacy and
:40:11. > :40:14.numeracy which comes out on a periodic basis and the response to
:40:15. > :40:20.that, the Government took a number of steps, one of which to invite the
:40:21. > :40:23.OECD to review the curriculum of excellence and identify where we
:40:24. > :40:26.need to strengthen the implementation of performance of
:40:27. > :40:32.curriculum for excellence. The OECD gives that review in December 2015,
:40:33. > :40:34.it identified the fact that we need to simplify the curriculum and how
:40:35. > :40:38.we communicated that curriculum and we've gone ahead and done that. It
:40:39. > :40:43.set out how we needed to take measures to ensure we had more
:40:44. > :40:45.effective assessment approaches in place so we could track the progress
:40:46. > :40:50.of young people and support them to fulfil their puppet -- potential as
:40:51. > :40:58.we move forward. We also suggested we need to intensify efforts within
:40:59. > :41:02.Scottish education and those measures have been set oats and then
:41:03. > :41:11.by the Government. At the turn of the, it was well ahead of the
:41:12. > :41:14.average maths and reading and science and we're no average.
:41:15. > :41:21.England has got us up and overtaken us. You have spent the last seven
:41:22. > :41:26.months trying to get to grips with the education system. Why do you
:41:27. > :41:30.think this decline has happened? There are a couple of relevant
:41:31. > :41:33.things here. The first is that the PISA approach is one particular way
:41:34. > :41:38.of assessing the performance of young people within the education
:41:39. > :41:42.system and your right to highlight of the comparative performance going
:41:43. > :41:46.back to the year 2000 and has been a decline in that performance. On the
:41:47. > :41:52.PISA approach we are performing at a lower level than we were in 2006.
:41:53. > :41:55.The steps that I just set out to you in my previous answer that were
:41:56. > :41:58.suggested to us by the OECD are important steps for us to take to
:41:59. > :42:05.ensure we strengthen the performance and address the issues that arise
:42:06. > :42:07.out of the PISA... It will be difficult for parents watching Mr
:42:08. > :42:12.have much faith in measures she wanted it in the future to address
:42:13. > :42:16.this if you can't give them a pretty simple and clear explanation of why
:42:17. > :42:19.there has been such an alarming decline in performance of our
:42:20. > :42:24.schools since the turn of the century? What I said to you in my
:42:25. > :42:28.answer was that we went to the OECD to undertake a review of curriculum
:42:29. > :42:32.for excellence in 2015 and the suggested a number of things where
:42:33. > :42:38.we were not performing strongly enough into to take more action, an
:42:39. > :42:43.simple find the curriculum, strength of -- strengthening and empowering
:42:44. > :42:49.schools within Scotland. All of these measures the Government has
:42:50. > :42:52.now taken forward. Our process was informed by the OECD analysis of
:42:53. > :42:59.curriculum for excellence. The other point I was going to make to you is
:43:00. > :43:02.that the PISA statistics show as one snapshot of performance, there is a
:43:03. > :43:05.much broader range of performance information we need to see, a lot of
:43:06. > :43:09.which will become clear in the course of this week when I set out
:43:10. > :43:12.some further information to Parliament about that performance of
:43:13. > :43:17.information. It gives you much assessment of the performance of
:43:18. > :43:20.young people and the performance of schools. Although the PISA results
:43:21. > :43:24.are disappointing, what I've seen as they go around the country is an
:43:25. > :43:29.honest strength within our schools, education system, but what I would
:43:30. > :43:32.concede is that not all of that strength is systemic within Scottish
:43:33. > :43:36.dedication and I have to make sure that that's the case. Are you saying
:43:37. > :43:40.before you do should bring to Parliament this week will give a
:43:41. > :43:47.rosier picture than that painted by the PISA report? What they will do
:43:48. > :43:48.is give a broader picture of wider factors within Scottish education.
:43:49. > :43:53.is give a broader picture of wider Will it look better? I can't tell
:43:54. > :43:58.you that information because I have to show that was Parliament. The
:43:59. > :44:05.PISA information looks at science, reading, mathematics. It's important
:44:06. > :44:08.we look at a much wider variety of indicators about the performance of
:44:09. > :44:12.young people within Scottish education and that is essentially
:44:13. > :44:16.what curriculum for excellence at -- Abe enables us to do. A creepy much
:44:17. > :44:20.broader expense of learning for young people and ensures the much
:44:21. > :44:25.better equipped to the world of work and equip them for their lifetime.
:44:26. > :44:28.Parents watching this must be thinking, we had these figures
:44:29. > :44:32.earlier this year within Scotland itself showing things were getting
:44:33. > :44:37.worse. We've got the PISA figures which have shown an alarming
:44:38. > :44:41.decline, which show that England had caught up Scotland and overtaking it
:44:42. > :44:47.and it's all very well talking about these broader measures and having
:44:48. > :44:52.broader measurement and the rest of it, but you don't seem to be able to
:44:53. > :45:01.give us a simple explanation of what is going wrong. I've done that twice
:45:02. > :45:05.already. No, you haven't. You said about the issues you want to
:45:06. > :45:09.address. With the greatest of respect, I have. The Government
:45:10. > :45:14.commissioned the OECD to look at the performance of curriculum for
:45:15. > :45:18.excellence and the OECD, the authors of the PISA statistics, they told us
:45:19. > :45:21.a number of things when we needed to strengthen our performance. The flip
:45:22. > :45:25.side of that is that obviously we weren't good enough at taking those
:45:26. > :45:29.things forward before that. That is where the problems arise from. We
:45:30. > :45:31.are now ticking action on attainment, assessment, simple
:45:32. > :45:38.finally curriculum, strengthening the leadership in education and
:45:39. > :45:41.ensuring schools are at the heart of education system. All of these
:45:42. > :45:46.measures have been taken forward but I would also point out due to
:45:47. > :45:50.reassure parents that we do have a situation where an examination
:45:51. > :45:54.performance we delivered in August the 2nd highest attainment levels of
:45:55. > :46:00.any year performance in the examination system and we also saw
:46:01. > :46:03.25% increase in vocational qualifications within Scottish
:46:04. > :46:06.education. The PISA statistics are one snapshot and yes they are
:46:07. > :46:12.disappointing but there are other measures of performance which are
:46:13. > :46:15.very encouraging. To other measures of encouragement, the SNP Government
:46:16. > :46:19.withdrew from. Will you give a commitment that you will rejoin
:46:20. > :46:25.withdrew from. Will you give a those? We are involved in the PISA
:46:26. > :46:29.analysis... You withdrew from two others. Yes, there is going to be
:46:30. > :46:33.plenty of performance information coming out. The Scottish Government
:46:34. > :46:35.has committed itself to standardised assessment performance of young
:46:36. > :46:45.people within Scottish education that we can map the progress of
:46:46. > :46:49.young people. Why not join the Saudis... We are already part of the
:46:50. > :46:55.PISA study which is a recognised international survey of opinion. You
:46:56. > :46:59.withdrew from two others. Yes, we did. What I consider to be
:47:00. > :47:03.international adequate expertise and analysis of performance of Scottish
:47:04. > :47:08.education already available to us by our participation within PISA and
:47:09. > :47:11.the work and advice we get from the International Council for education
:47:12. > :47:14.advisers and we've already sought the intervention and involvement of
:47:15. > :47:20.the OECD in reviewing curriculum for excellence. There is plenty of
:47:21. > :47:25.analysis around, plenty of analysis, the key thing is to focus on
:47:26. > :47:29.delivering the improvements and the measures that will strengthen the
:47:30. > :47:33.performance of Scottish education and fulfil the needs of young people
:47:34. > :47:36.within Scotland. At the Scottish National as education minister, do
:47:37. > :47:39.you feel a little embarrassed or even ashamed when you see the
:47:40. > :47:43.outgoing Chief inspector of schools in England Sir Michael will shop
:47:44. > :47:49.complained that Scotland is dragging down in the UK average in the PISA
:47:50. > :47:52.results? I don't think anyone looking at what I've said in the
:47:53. > :47:55.course of this week could in any way suggest I am anything other than
:47:56. > :48:00.focused on improving performance in Scottish education and I'm accepting
:48:01. > :48:04.openly and can delete the PISA results are not good enough within
:48:05. > :48:07.Scotland. No, I don't find unacceptable but I made that
:48:08. > :48:11.absolutely clear to Parliament the other day. I am focused on
:48:12. > :48:14.delivering improvement and I want to enable everybody in the education
:48:15. > :48:19.system in Scotland to work collaboratively to ensure we do that
:48:20. > :48:24.for the young people. The more we separate out from the rest of the
:48:25. > :48:28.UK, the better we'll do, and here we have a situation for education in
:48:29. > :48:29.Scotland was much better in England at the turn-of-the-century and now
:48:30. > :48:34.it's worse. From an SNP point of at the turn-of-the-century and now
:48:35. > :48:40.view, that is pretty awful, isn't it? There is a whole variety of
:48:41. > :48:45.areas of performance in Scotland that is superior to performance and
:48:46. > :48:49.the rest of the UK. I could show you that in relation to performance and
:48:50. > :48:51.health service for our health service is admittedly performing
:48:52. > :48:55.head of the rest of the United Kingdom. You can single out any
:48:56. > :49:00.example you want to substantiate the point you're making to make but...
:49:01. > :49:04.It's what your Government says is the most important policy for you.
:49:05. > :49:09.I'm contradicting the evidence you're putting in front of me. I am
:49:10. > :49:12.focused unreservedly an improvement in Scottish education to make sure
:49:13. > :49:15.we can fulfil the life chances of young people in Scotland. That's
:49:16. > :49:20.what people would expect of me and that's what I'm doing. There is a
:49:21. > :49:25.general problem here that the OECD report, not the PISA results, but
:49:26. > :49:30.the one you commissioned makes a big point of saying there are not robust
:49:31. > :49:34.measures in so that we can tell whether curriculum for excellence is
:49:35. > :49:38.a success or not. It's only a few weeks since we had ordered Scotland
:49:39. > :49:40.saying much the same thing about integrating the NHS with social
:49:41. > :49:45.care, saying there are no measures in place so we know whether it's
:49:46. > :49:50.working or not. It seems to be a systemic problem in Scotland that we
:49:51. > :49:53.come up with these great schemes, like curriculum for excellence, but
:49:54. > :49:57.we don't actually have proper benchmarks in place so that we can
:49:58. > :50:00.turn right after a few years and see that either works or it didn't work.
:50:01. > :50:05.Would you accept that the problem here? With the greatest of respect,
:50:06. > :50:08.that's the point to be making to use this interview. It's one of the
:50:09. > :50:12.things the OECD said to us we need to strengthen. That's why we're
:50:13. > :50:15.taking forward to standardised assessment to inform teacher
:50:16. > :50:19.judgments we can see that performance of young people and we
:50:20. > :50:23.can intervene and young people to enable them to fulfil their
:50:24. > :50:26.potential. Yes, that information is required, that's what were putting
:50:27. > :50:30.in place and were not disputing that employees in response to the PISA
:50:31. > :50:33.statistics, were putting it in place in response to the review that we
:50:34. > :50:36.commissioned by the OECD of curriculum for excellence to make
:50:37. > :50:39.sure we were in the strongest possible position to deliver the
:50:40. > :50:45.best performance we could for young people.
:50:46. > :50:53.Can I just change the subject for a moment. Child abuse. There are
:50:54. > :50:57.demands from some victims groups and opposition politicians that the
:50:58. > :51:04.inquiry you set up into child abuse should be extended to football. Will
:51:05. > :51:09.you reconsider and perhaps do that? No, I will not do that. I have
:51:10. > :51:13.listened carefully to survivor groups who are involved in the
:51:14. > :51:18.establishment of the Scottish Government's child abuse inquiry,
:51:19. > :51:23.The Independent inquiry into the abuse of young people in care, where
:51:24. > :51:26.young people were failed by the state. Jack McConnell gave an
:51:27. > :51:32.apology on behalf of the state to those young people many years ago.
:51:33. > :51:36.The Scottish Government is now conducting an independent inquiry
:51:37. > :51:41.into that experience. Survivors groups want that to proceed. Not all
:51:42. > :51:48.of them have the same view that they say they wanted to proceed, they do
:51:49. > :51:52.not want the timescale extended. I want to make sure that the
:51:53. > :51:58.commitments that we have given to the survivors, young people who have
:51:59. > :52:03.been in care in our system, who were badly failed by the state, are
:52:04. > :52:08.properly addressed by an independent inquiry. If you do not want to
:52:09. > :52:13.extend the existing one should the SFA have an inquiry into what is
:52:14. > :52:17.going on? I do think that. First and foremost the police have got to be
:52:18. > :52:22.given the time and the space to address any complaints that are made
:52:23. > :52:26.by any individual that has had the awful experience of being affected
:52:27. > :52:31.by child abuse within football. They must go to the police. They are
:52:32. > :52:35.helplines available to assist people to make that contact and I encourage
:52:36. > :52:39.people to do that. The police must have the time and space to address
:52:40. > :52:45.that issue. But I think the SFA should recognise the extent of the
:52:46. > :52:50.actions that various clubs have taken individually, and various
:52:51. > :52:54.clubs have taken action individually, to examine previous
:52:55. > :52:57.conduct in handling these issues, but the existence of that
:52:58. > :53:01.information is now so widespread that the SFA has got to consider
:53:02. > :53:05.setting up an independent inquiry that will satisfy these issues, but
:53:06. > :53:13.they are properly addressed in football. I understand what you are
:53:14. > :53:16.saying about not wanting to extend the existing inquiry because these
:53:17. > :53:21.things are always very problematic and make it more problematic, I
:53:22. > :53:25.understand that, but some people would say, and I cast no aspersions
:53:26. > :53:31.on the SFA, some people would say given the issues at stake, it is how
:53:32. > :53:37.the authorities and football hands of the allegations in the past, and
:53:38. > :53:42.the SFA is not the appropriate body, it should be somebody independent
:53:43. > :53:46.from the SFA. That is what I said. The SFA should establish an
:53:47. > :53:53.independent inquiry. They should do it but that should be independent of
:53:54. > :53:55.them? Absolutely. It should be conducted via an authoritative
:53:56. > :53:59.independent respected figure who will be able to look at these issues
:54:00. > :54:03.without fear or favour and to examine all of the issues to the
:54:04. > :54:07.satisfaction of the wider debate within Scotland. But as a necessity
:54:08. > :54:08.of the current situation but football and Scotland finds itself
:54:09. > :54:10.in. Thank you very much. And in response to that interview,
:54:11. > :54:13.the SFA have released a statement saying they're "open minded
:54:14. > :54:18.to an independent review, but with the right scope
:54:19. > :54:26.and terms of reference." A government's budget is something
:54:27. > :54:28.few people get excited about. But as Derek Mackay puts the final
:54:29. > :54:32.touches to his plans for the next year, speculation is growing -
:54:33. > :54:34.slowly - about what he This is the first time
:54:35. > :54:38.the Scottish Government will set out how it'll use new income tax powers,
:54:39. > :54:40.which were devolved Charlotte Barbour is Director of tax
:54:41. > :54:44.at ICAS and is in our Edinburgh studio and Professor Murray Pittock
:54:45. > :54:59.is from Glasgow University. Give us something to get excited
:55:00. > :55:03.about because we already know about the change in tax relief. We will
:55:04. > :55:05.return to that. Income tax is a tax, the change in tax relief. We will
:55:06. > :55:09.it is almost impossible to introduce the change in tax relief. We will
:55:10. > :55:13.it, but they have some things to play with, apart from the much
:55:14. > :55:16.heralded changes to Air Passenger Duty, they will have about ?1
:55:17. > :55:23.billion to play with potentially from the restriction on the higher
:55:24. > :55:29.rate tax threshold, which they are putting going to cost of living,
:55:30. > :55:32.rather than a collective in place of the limitation. But that is not
:55:33. > :55:39.extra money. It simply means they do not lose money. It is extra money
:55:40. > :55:43.compared to what the tax take would be if the tax take was on a UK wide
:55:44. > :55:48.basis. Effectively it is potentially extra money. The issue is, and this
:55:49. > :55:53.again is a problem for the way the extra money. The issue is, and this
:55:54. > :55:56.taxes are going to be collected in the longer term, if the Scottish
:55:57. > :56:02.growth rate continues to trail the UK growth rate, never mind the
:56:03. > :56:07.Barnett Formula, there will be more and more tax on a lower and lower
:56:08. > :56:11.base. There will be quite a big slug of tax fixing higher rate owners
:56:12. > :56:15.because of the council tax bands at the top, that is due to be raised as
:56:16. > :56:20.well, that'll have a significant effect. I am still Cubist make this
:56:21. > :56:26.extra money, Charlotte Barbour. I would of thought if they do not
:56:27. > :56:33.implement what is being committed in England, it does not get extra
:56:34. > :56:38.money,... One of the things interesting to me is the difference
:56:39. > :56:41.in presentation between how things operate and how you might see them
:56:42. > :56:46.from a more political perspective. That is two ways of seeing things.
:56:47. > :56:49.You can compare where we sit in relation to England and the rest of
:56:50. > :56:55.the UK under their special school up they will have more tax relief, pay
:56:56. > :57:04.less tax, if our officials do not go up, correspondingly we will pay
:57:05. > :57:13.more. Very clear, thank you for that. Let me ask you something else.
:57:14. > :57:18.In England and the rest of the UK are these thresholds going to be
:57:19. > :57:23.indexed as well as entities to 50,000 or are they just going to go
:57:24. > :57:28.with the programme of increasing the higher rate threshold to 50,000? If
:57:29. > :57:31.it is just going to go to 50,000 it would mean that the higher inflation
:57:32. > :57:35.is the less difference there would be between Scotland and England, or
:57:36. > :57:41.is that wrong? Why do we not take a step back for a moment? The whole
:57:42. > :57:46.point about income tax rates and band is to allow Scottish Parliament
:57:47. > :57:48.and the rest of the UK to go in different directions and perhaps we
:57:49. > :57:53.need to question why the starting point should always be a comparison
:57:54. > :57:57.with the rest of the UK. If you go back to the Smith Commission and his
:57:58. > :57:59.report, the income tax powers offer sheared powers across income tax
:58:00. > :58:02.because that is the other thing you sheared powers across income tax
:58:03. > :58:08.had to bear in mind is that income tax is not totally devolved, the
:58:09. > :58:14.income from editors, but not the actual underlying tax. If you look
:58:15. > :58:17.at the tax itself, things like what is income, still sits with UK
:58:18. > :58:23.legislation. In Scotland we are going to be able to raise rates of
:58:24. > :58:30.bans on earnings, pensions, those kind of earnings, but for savings
:58:31. > :58:33.and dividends, that'll stay with the UK, Sobel personal allowances. There
:58:34. > :58:41.is not a huge amount of room for manoeuvre. What about my point about
:58:42. > :58:44.inflation, is that wrong? Inflation, the rates me the inflation indexed
:58:45. > :58:48.or you might want to raise them beyond that. What is happening in
:58:49. > :58:53.the rest of the UK is that rates are going beyond inflation. They are not
:58:54. > :58:59.actually being index. That 50 K is a commitment to the end of this
:59:00. > :59:06.Parliament. It is 50 K nominal, not 50 K index. It is not indexed. My
:59:07. > :59:08.point is if you are going to indexed officials in Scotland, the higher
:59:09. > :59:14.inflation goes, then either you come to the English rate. Right, but it
:59:15. > :59:16.will take quite a bit of time because the jumps are quite
:59:17. > :59:23.significant in the rest of the UK bands and I think the issue of tax
:59:24. > :59:27.and diverging scrum appeared angled, it is difficult to do anything with
:59:28. > :59:34.income tax, no UK Government has increased basic rate income tax
:59:35. > :59:42.since the 1974-79 Labour Government, it is a toxic tax to increase, the
:59:43. > :59:46.SNP propose that in 1999, it was a disaster, the Labour Government
:59:47. > :59:51.suggested an extra penny, it was not good for them. Social attitudes
:59:52. > :59:54.survey, people will say we want a more egalitarian society in
:59:55. > :00:00.Scotland, a gap between what they say and in the rest of the UK, that
:00:01. > :00:02.is more of an identity expression. If you say that we are going to
:00:03. > :00:09.increase the rate of basic income If you say that we are going to
:00:10. > :00:15.tax, that is an electoral loser. There are also a number of issues
:00:16. > :00:18.about elsewhere in the budget which relate back to the discussion we
:00:19. > :00:23.were having earlier about targets. The sense in the future of
:00:24. > :00:30.Scotland's getting a significant proportion of VAT receipts, how
:00:31. > :00:35.would that be impacted by increasing council tax bands and effectively
:00:36. > :00:40.increasing the top rates of tax, will Scotland's lagging growth
:00:41. > :00:44.distress # will depress the VAT tax take, do we know what the measures
:00:45. > :00:50.are? We are running out of time. Charlotte Barbour, something else,
:00:51. > :00:56.are the new borrowing powers for the Scottish Government this time? There
:00:57. > :01:01.are new borrowing powers and one feature of this is to help manage
:01:02. > :01:04.the tax side of things because once you devolved tax powers the take
:01:05. > :01:10.from the tax becomes less certain not just in total amount you take
:01:11. > :01:14.but in fluctuation so when it comes in, so they may need to ease
:01:15. > :01:18.borrowing across that. They need to put the money away for a rainy day
:01:19. > :01:23.in case the tax take turns out to be less than they expect. You need to
:01:24. > :01:27.have it across that, or more specifically, month by month. They
:01:28. > :01:30.cannot just max out borrowing and start building new roads and
:01:31. > :01:38.airports. I do not like to pass comment on that. You would? I
:01:39. > :01:45.certainly would. It is their Corbin policy down south but the question
:01:46. > :01:49.is is it sustainable? Two questions. Do they want to hype offer Kate the
:01:50. > :01:58.restriction on the higher rate of tax to help? To prevent criticism do
:01:59. > :02:05.they want to quantify the impact of airport passenger duty change? Lots
:02:06. > :02:08.more the impact measurement has to be quantified because there is a
:02:09. > :02:15.risk of a medium-term downturn in the Scottish tax take. Hype offer
:02:16. > :02:17.Keating means raising a specific tax for a specific purpose. We will have
:02:18. > :02:19.two there. The National Farmers Union has
:02:20. > :02:21.written to the First Minister and to the Prime Minister seeking
:02:22. > :02:23.guarantees for agriculture, horticulture and food processers
:02:24. > :02:26.after we leave the EU. One of their key demands is for
:02:27. > :02:29.a scheme to allow seasonal workers - primarily from Eastern Europe -
:02:30. > :02:32.to continue to work here We're used, in Scotland,
:02:33. > :02:36.to thinking that mainly means in the summer to harvest
:02:37. > :02:38.soft fruit in the likes But it turns out that's
:02:39. > :02:41.not all they do. Huw Williams reports now on Brexit -
:02:42. > :02:54.the Christmas tree connection. Packing Christmas trees to sell in
:02:55. > :03:01.the farm shop here and at sites across Scotland. His surname sounds
:03:02. > :03:07.Scottish but it is complicated. I was born in the States. We moved to
:03:08. > :03:12.Denmark. From Denmark I grew up in Germany. Most of my life I have
:03:13. > :03:17.spent in Germany. I am actually French. In 2009 I came to Scotland
:03:18. > :03:21.to study. I fell in love with the police and have worked and lived
:03:22. > :03:27.here ever since. The Christmas tree job is seasonal work. In between
:03:28. > :03:31.being an outdoor instructor and a mountain bike guide, all possible
:03:32. > :03:34.because of freedom of movement while the UK is in the EU. It is great
:03:35. > :03:39.having a French passport because you can travel and work. I came to
:03:40. > :03:42.Scotland and got a National Insurance number and was treated
:03:43. > :03:46.like an equal, I can live and work and study as much as I want to. The
:03:47. > :03:52.question is what is going to happen now? The boss says his business and
:03:53. > :03:56.industry as a whole relies on seasonal workers. That reality is
:03:57. > :04:01.they come from countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and the
:04:02. > :04:04.Baltic States. We have advertised and we still advertise locally to
:04:05. > :04:08.try to get people to work these long hours and work hard in the cold
:04:09. > :04:12.conditions on the farm and it is not easy to find them. We do have local
:04:13. > :04:19.people that work for us but we still need a top up because there are so
:04:20. > :04:23.many hours and so many days. In fact if you are lucky enough to have a
:04:24. > :04:25.traditional family Christmas this year you would be hard-pressed to
:04:26. > :04:32.think of an element which has not been brought to you at least in part
:04:33. > :04:35.by seasonal workers from Europe. Traditionally we think of people
:04:36. > :04:39.from Eastern Europe and other parts of Europe working in the fields,
:04:40. > :04:45.sprouts this time of year, Christmas tree harvest, which employs quite a
:04:46. > :04:50.lot of Eastern European Labour as well. Quite a lot of these companies
:04:51. > :04:52.are Danish companies, we are integrated with that. And the
:04:53. > :04:57.poultry industry and turkey production. That includes this
:04:58. > :05:02.sprouts and the cabbages although the boss here can see some benefits
:05:03. > :05:08.from Brexit, if the right policies are put in space. It is always great
:05:09. > :05:10.to have control. The fact there is freedom of movement, that has
:05:11. > :05:19.allowed workers to come in and settle in the country. That has had
:05:20. > :05:23.its own issues and problems on the national Health Service and things
:05:24. > :05:28.like that. Where as if there is a properly implemented seasonal
:05:29. > :05:31.workers scheme put in place where there is control of movement in and
:05:32. > :05:34.a note of the country, but is going to mean agriculture can continue to
:05:35. > :05:45.operate. The industry has a ready made moves
:05:46. > :05:50.to be less reliant on seasonal workers, production of fruit and veg
:05:51. > :05:55.was up between 6% fruit and 9% vegetables in the last year. The
:05:56. > :06:01.seasonal worker requirement was down by about 6.5%. We are continually
:06:02. > :06:08.recognising the industry and making better use of the Labour that we are
:06:09. > :06:12.bringing in. For now at least the industry wants Government to allow
:06:13. > :06:15.it access to the workers it needs. We need the Government to understand
:06:16. > :06:21.what the challenges are and the requirements of a fragile industry,
:06:22. > :06:25.which agriculture currently is. The question was raised in the House of
:06:26. > :06:29.Commons this week. Will the Government commit to protecting
:06:30. > :06:35.access for seasonal workers from the EU to safeguard our agricultural
:06:36. > :06:39.sector? We are necessary how -- we are aware how necessary is to have a
:06:40. > :06:44.seasonal scheme in place and we are looking at. A pointed question for
:06:45. > :06:50.politicians. If we're going to have people come into the farm and
:06:51. > :06:53.harvest when we're busy and need additional labour for the rest of
:06:54. > :06:57.the year, we are we going to get these people from? We're going to
:06:58. > :07:07.come from? And are going to come from Scotland or Britain? Where
:07:08. > :07:16.else? I know. Could Brexit change everything, even Christmas? We had
:07:17. > :07:17.to get the Christmas music in somewhere.
:07:18. > :07:20.It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's
:07:21. > :07:27.And my guests this week are Kathleen Nutt, a freelance
:07:28. > :07:29.journalist, who writes for The National and
:07:30. > :07:36.the former special advisor for Labour, Paul Sinclair.
:07:37. > :07:48.Education, what do you make of all this PISA stuff? Yanuyanutawa of the
:07:49. > :07:52.first time the SNP Government has looked truly weak. For the results
:07:53. > :07:57.to be down over a decade steadily and for John Swinney to see the
:07:58. > :07:59.found out about in OECD when you pointed it out. They have been in
:08:00. > :08:03.Government three years and didn't know this is going to happen? The
:08:04. > :08:08.decline is not entirely on the SNP because the decline has been since
:08:09. > :08:11.the turn-of-the-century and labour and the Liberal Democrats were in
:08:12. > :08:18.power for much of that time. The presiding over some of this. The
:08:19. > :08:21.inventive curriculum for excellence as well. The point I would make is
:08:22. > :08:25.the SNP have been for nearly a decade and apparently didn't notice
:08:26. > :08:27.this decline having got rid of two international studies on Scottish
:08:28. > :08:34.education, they didn't notice it until 2015. We are in in error of
:08:35. > :08:38.identity politics. Edit -- education as part of the Scottish identity and
:08:39. > :08:43.it's no worse than it is in the rest of the UK. That's not acceptable.
:08:44. > :08:47.What do you make of it? I would agree with Paul. It is really bad
:08:48. > :08:54.news for everyone in Scotland and these results were terrible.
:08:55. > :08:59.Education in Scotland was seen as a beacon of excellence. People in
:09:00. > :09:04.Northern Ireland would talk about how wonderful the Scottish education
:09:05. > :09:08.system is. Issues like curriculum for excellence, has come up and it's
:09:09. > :09:11.been blamed perhaps by some for excellence, has come up and it's
:09:12. > :09:20.commentators for the decline, that may well be an element of that,
:09:21. > :09:24.there is also the wider issue about resources in education. When the SNP
:09:25. > :09:31.came to parliament in 2007, they had a manifesto commitment of a primary
:09:32. > :09:35.one class having no more than 18 children it. That has fallen by the
:09:36. > :09:41.wayside and there have been cuts to education in terms of fewer
:09:42. > :09:45.teachers, class sizes are bigger, and there is a very few teaching
:09:46. > :09:50.assistants known in class. I've been looking at education, one of the top
:09:51. > :09:56.performers were actually some of the small independent state in Europe,
:09:57. > :10:01.Finland, Ireland, Estonia. In Finland and Estonia, children start
:10:02. > :10:06.school a little later. That seems to be one of the lessons, having
:10:07. > :10:09.children start school later is perhaps a good thing. Curriculum for
:10:10. > :10:15.excellence, the Government is desperate not to blame that. It's
:10:16. > :10:19.kind of alluded to in the OECD report. If he had just said let's
:10:20. > :10:26.teach children basic subjects and have some interdisciplinary bits
:10:27. > :10:32.added on. As you are doing a class in history but there is geographical
:10:33. > :10:37.aspects there as well. Instead of this enormous upheaval and this
:10:38. > :10:39.completely new thing. I don't know... I've read some of the
:10:40. > :10:44.documents issued to teachers on this and I don't know how the teachers
:10:45. > :10:49.manage. I frankly find the stuff unintelligible. I find much of the
:10:50. > :10:51.OECD report that the Scottish Government commissioned pretty
:10:52. > :11:00.unintelligible. I absolutely agree that I find it remarkable that we've
:11:01. > :11:03.been going through this for more than ten years. Teachers anecdotally
:11:04. > :11:07.saying this isn't working, not aside implemented but it isn't working at
:11:08. > :11:14.all. We don't do anything about it until we come up with this report.
:11:15. > :11:18.Child abuse, you have heard a John Swinney saying the thing-mac have
:11:19. > :11:27.set up an independent enquiry presumably under a QC. -- SFA. The
:11:28. > :11:31.SFA are also saying they are open to that and I think that is something
:11:32. > :11:38.to be welcomed. It has been a horrendous problem and reading the
:11:39. > :11:43.stories of what people went through, it is really harrowing. I don't
:11:44. > :11:46.think it should go into the enquiry... It should not be fed into
:11:47. > :11:54.the institutional base enquiry that is going on a moment. You think John
:11:55. > :11:58.Swinney is right? I think you're quite right. This institutional
:11:59. > :12:01.abuse enquiry dates back to the 1950s, there are victims there who I
:12:02. > :12:06.really elderly who want to see justice in a lifetime and the
:12:07. > :12:10.campaigners have been demanding an enquiry since about 2002. It's
:12:11. > :12:13.finally got off the ground and I think the remit was widened, it
:12:14. > :12:21.would overcomplicate it, it could lose focus. There have been problems
:12:22. > :12:24.with the one here already and be won in England. It would say that the
:12:25. > :12:28.enquiries that have been successful, the one in the Republic of Ireland,
:12:29. > :12:34.has been focused very much an institutional abuse and have not
:12:35. > :12:37.lost their focus. John Swinney is right and the analogy with England
:12:38. > :12:45.is absolutely right. It's far too broad and not working. I wouldn't
:12:46. > :12:48.send the... The idea they can set up some kind of enquiry, the setup
:12:49. > :12:53.enquiry after enquiry into how the play football and leave all field
:12:54. > :12:57.and the game is failing. They should be an independent enquiry but maybe
:12:58. > :13:02.the Government could add a bit of steel that the SFA won't. Sadly for
:13:03. > :13:06.you were not quite out of times were going to talk about the Labour
:13:07. > :13:11.Party. Scottish Labour relaunch this week, were you massively impressed?
:13:12. > :13:15.It was a brave speech by Kezia Dugdale. I don't know if we won the
:13:16. > :13:19.second act of union, Alistair Brown and Gordon Brown back it but it
:13:20. > :13:26.seems to hit hinge on a couple of things. It is one that England want.
:13:27. > :13:30.Crucially, Jeremy Corbyn winning an election and I don't think anybody
:13:31. > :13:37.really think that's going to happen any time soon. Where you were out?
:13:38. > :13:41.Not at all. It was probably the right move for Labour to do this but
:13:42. > :13:46.it should have been done years ago, rather than now. It is a bit of
:13:47. > :13:48.desperation he had to do something quickly to try and bring back
:13:49. > :13:50.voters. Thank you both very much. I'll be back at the
:13:51. > :13:55.same time next week.