:00:37. > :00:39.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership
:00:44. > :00:46.of the EU's single market and its customs union?
:00:47. > :00:49.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country
:00:50. > :00:56.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?
:00:57. > :00:59.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one
:01:00. > :01:03.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.
:01:04. > :01:09.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?
:01:10. > :01:14.Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.
:01:15. > :01:15.In London this week: With the rail and Tube strikes bringing
:01:16. > :01:20.I'll ask the deputy leader of Scottish Labour whether there's
:01:21. > :01:31.any future for his party north of the border - or south.
:01:32. > :01:35.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest
:01:36. > :01:37.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,
:01:38. > :01:45.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join
:01:46. > :01:52.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,
:01:53. > :01:55.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"
:01:56. > :01:59.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".
:02:00. > :02:02.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go
:02:03. > :02:05.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big
:02:06. > :02:09.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister
:02:10. > :02:12.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership
:02:13. > :02:17.of the single market and customs union.
:02:18. > :02:19.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -
:02:20. > :02:22.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".
:02:23. > :02:25.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper
:02:26. > :02:29.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.
:02:30. > :02:32.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",
:02:33. > :02:34.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels
:02:35. > :02:37.and call for an end to free movement.
:02:38. > :02:39.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.
:02:40. > :02:41.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader
:02:42. > :02:48.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:02:49. > :02:54.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says
:02:55. > :02:57.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.
:02:58. > :03:04.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view
:03:05. > :03:07.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside
:03:08. > :03:11.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on
:03:12. > :03:15.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is
:03:16. > :03:20.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship
:03:21. > :03:24.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to
:03:25. > :03:27.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the
:03:28. > :03:30.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the
:03:31. > :03:35.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced
:03:36. > :03:39.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual
:03:40. > :03:42.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market
:03:43. > :03:48.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't
:03:49. > :03:52.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and
:03:53. > :03:56.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site
:03:57. > :04:01.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who
:04:02. > :04:05.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single
:04:06. > :04:10.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the
:04:11. > :04:14.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you
:04:15. > :04:17.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there
:04:18. > :04:23.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and
:04:24. > :04:27.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave
:04:28. > :04:31.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the
:04:32. > :04:34.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the
:04:35. > :04:40.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against
:04:41. > :04:46.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out
:04:47. > :04:49.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have
:04:50. > :04:53.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will
:04:54. > :04:58.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.
:04:59. > :05:00.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil
:05:01. > :05:04.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final
:05:05. > :05:08.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have
:05:09. > :05:15.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear
:05:16. > :05:17.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.
:05:18. > :05:20.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the
:05:21. > :05:23.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement
:05:24. > :05:29.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So
:05:30. > :05:34.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a
:05:35. > :05:37.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe
:05:38. > :05:41.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,
:05:42. > :05:44.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the
:05:45. > :05:49.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean
:05:50. > :05:53.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs
:05:54. > :05:56.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the
:05:57. > :06:00.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley
:06:01. > :06:03.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of
:06:04. > :06:07.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the
:06:08. > :06:12.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,
:06:13. > :06:15.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in
:06:16. > :06:18.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really
:06:19. > :06:23.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best
:06:24. > :06:29.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the
:06:30. > :06:33.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,
:06:34. > :06:38.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is
:06:39. > :06:42.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under
:06:43. > :06:46.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of
:06:47. > :06:48.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that
:06:49. > :06:54.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do
:06:55. > :06:58.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.
:06:59. > :07:02.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British
:07:03. > :07:06.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as
:07:07. > :07:11.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but
:07:12. > :07:16.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that
:07:17. > :07:20.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are
:07:21. > :07:25.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,
:07:26. > :07:28.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market
:07:29. > :07:34.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It
:07:35. > :07:37.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the
:07:38. > :07:42.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white
:07:43. > :07:45.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's
:07:46. > :07:48.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure
:07:49. > :07:55.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,
:07:56. > :08:01.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction
:08:02. > :08:05.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,
:08:06. > :08:08.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,
:08:09. > :08:11.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should
:08:12. > :08:15.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries
:08:16. > :08:18.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is
:08:19. > :08:23.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are
:08:24. > :08:27.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the
:08:28. > :08:33.answer to my question, you haven't answered it
:08:34. > :08:37.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best
:08:38. > :08:42.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the
:08:43. > :08:47.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,
:08:48. > :08:50.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm
:08:51. > :08:54.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.
:08:55. > :09:00.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that
:09:01. > :09:08.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in
:09:09. > :09:12.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more
:09:13. > :09:15.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's
:09:16. > :09:18.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really
:09:19. > :09:25.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything
:09:26. > :09:29.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of
:09:30. > :09:32.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact
:09:33. > :09:36.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that
:09:37. > :09:39.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the
:09:40. > :09:43.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly
:09:44. > :09:45.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I
:09:46. > :09:48.don't think she will go into the Farron is right about one thing, I
:09:49. > :09:56.speech planning to absolutely definitively say, we are leaving
:09:57. > :09:59.those things. Because even if there is a 1% chance of a miracle deal,
:10:00. > :10:01.where you stay in the Single Market, somehow get exempted from free
:10:02. > :10:05.movement, it is prudent to keep hopes on that option as a Prime
:10:06. > :10:10.Minister. -- to keep open that option. She is being advised both by
:10:11. > :10:12.the diplomatic corps and her personal advisers, don't concede on
:10:13. > :10:16.membership of the Single Market yet. We know it's not going to happen,
:10:17. > :10:25.but let them Europeans knock us back on that,... That is probably the
:10:26. > :10:29.right strategy for all of the reasons that Jarlan outlined there.
:10:30. > :10:32.What we learned a bit today is the possibility of some kind of
:10:33. > :10:36.transition or arrangements, which David Davies has been talking about
:10:37. > :10:39.in a comment piece for one of the Sunday papers. My sense from
:10:40. > :10:46.Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they are very happy with 90% of the
:10:47. > :10:51.rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The rhetoric has not been dampened down
:10:52. > :10:55.by MPs, apart from this transitional arrangement, which they feel and two
:10:56. > :10:59.France, on the one front will encourage the very dilatory EU to
:11:00. > :11:03.spend longer than ever negotiating a deal, and on the other hand will
:11:04. > :11:07.also be exactly what our civil service looks for in stringing
:11:08. > :11:10.things out. What wasn't explained this morning is what David Davies
:11:11. > :11:14.means by transitional is not that you negotiate what you can in two
:11:15. > :11:17.years and then spend another five years on the matter is that a lot of
:11:18. > :11:24.the soul. He thinks everything has to be done in the two years, -- of
:11:25. > :11:28.the matter are hard to solve. But it would include transitional
:11:29. > :11:31.arrangements over the five years. What we are seeing in the build-up
:11:32. > :11:37.is the danger of making these kind of speeches. In a way, I kind of
:11:38. > :11:41.admired her not feeding the media machine over the autumn and the end
:11:42. > :11:46.of last year cars, as Janan has pointed out in his columns, she has
:11:47. > :11:50.actually said quite a lot from it, you would extrapolate quite a lot.
:11:51. > :11:54.We won't be members of the Single Market? She said that in the party
:11:55. > :12:00.conference speech, we are out of European court. Her red line is the
:12:01. > :12:05.end of free movement, so we are out of the Single Market. Why has she
:12:06. > :12:09.sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of these other deals, not that he will
:12:10. > :12:13.succeed necessarily, but that is the intention? We are still in the
:12:14. > :12:16.customs union. You can extrapolate what she will say perhaps more
:12:17. > :12:20.cautiously in the headlines on Tuesday. But the grammar of a big
:12:21. > :12:24.speech raises expectations, gets the markets worked up. So she is doing
:12:25. > :12:27.it because people have said that she doesn't know what she's on about.
:12:28. > :12:30.But maybe she should have resisted it. Very well, and she hasn't. The
:12:31. > :12:33.speech is on Tuesday morning. Now, the public consultation
:12:34. > :12:35.on press regulation closed this week, and soon ministers will have
:12:36. > :12:38.to decide whether to enact a controversial
:12:39. > :12:39.piece of legislation. Section 40 of the Crime
:12:40. > :12:41.and Courts Act, if implemented, could see newspapers forced to pay
:12:42. > :12:44.legal costs in libel and privacy If they don't sign up to an
:12:45. > :12:54.officially approved regulator. The newspapers say it's
:12:55. > :12:57.an affront to a free press, while pro-privacy campaigners say
:12:58. > :12:59.it's the only way to ensure a scandal like phone-hacking
:13:00. > :13:01.can't happen again. Ellie Price has been
:13:02. > :13:07.reading all about it. It was the biggest news
:13:08. > :13:11.about the news for decades, a scandal that involved household
:13:12. > :13:16.names, but not just celebrities. They've even hacked the phone
:13:17. > :13:19.of a murdered schoolgirl. It led to the closure
:13:20. > :13:21.of the News Of The World, a year-long public inquiry headed up
:13:22. > :13:31.by the judge Lord Justice Leveson, and in the end, a new press watchdog
:13:32. > :13:34.set up by Royal Charter, which could impose, among other
:13:35. > :13:36.things, million-pound fines. If this system is implemented,
:13:37. > :13:39.the country should have confidence that the terrible suffering
:13:40. > :13:40.of innocent victims like the Dowlers, the McCanns
:13:41. > :13:42.and Christopher Jefferies should To get this new plan rolling,
:13:43. > :13:49.the Government also passed the Crime and Courts Act,
:13:50. > :13:53.Section 40 of which would force publications who didn't sign up
:13:54. > :13:56.to the new regulator to pay legal costs in libel and privacy
:13:57. > :13:59.cases, even if they won. It's waiting for sign-off
:14:00. > :14:03.from the Culture Secretary. We've got about 50 publications
:14:04. > :14:07.that have signed up... This is Impress, the press regulator
:14:08. > :14:09.that's got the backing of the Royal Charter,
:14:10. > :14:15.so its members are protected from the penalties that would be
:14:16. > :14:18.imposed by Section 40. It's funded by the Formula One
:14:19. > :14:23.tycoon Max Mosley's I think the danger if we don't
:14:24. > :14:29.get Section 40 is that you have an incomplete
:14:30. > :14:31.Leveson project. I think it's very, very likely that
:14:32. > :14:34.within the next five or ten years there will be a scandal,
:14:35. > :14:37.there'll be a crisis in press standards, everyone will be
:14:38. > :14:39.saying to the Government, "Why on Earth didn't you sort things
:14:40. > :14:42.out when you had the chance?" Isn't Section 40 essentially
:14:43. > :14:44.just a big stick to beat We hear a lot about the stick part,
:14:45. > :14:52.but there's also a big juicy carrot for publishers and their journalists
:14:53. > :14:55.who are members of an They get huge new protections
:14:56. > :14:58.from libel threats, from privacy actions,
:14:59. > :15:00.which actually means they've got a lot more opportunity to run
:15:01. > :15:09.investigative stories. Impress has a big image problem -
:15:10. > :15:11.not a single national Instead, many of them
:15:12. > :15:16.are members of Ipso, the independent regulator set up
:15:17. > :15:19.and funded by the industry that doesn't seek the recognition
:15:20. > :15:25.of the Royal Charter. The male cells around 22,000 each
:15:26. > :15:29.day... There are regional titles too, who,
:15:30. > :15:31.like the Birmingham Mail, won't sign up to Impress,
:15:32. > :15:34.even if they say the costs are associated with Section 40
:15:35. > :15:38.could put them out of business. Impress has an umbilical cord that
:15:39. > :15:40.goes directly back to Government through the recognition setup
:15:41. > :15:42.that it has. Now, we broke free of the shackles
:15:43. > :15:45.of the regulated press when the stamp duty was revealed
:15:46. > :15:48.150 years ago. If we go back to this level
:15:49. > :15:55.of oversight, then I think we turn the clock back,
:15:56. > :16:00.150 years of press freedom. The responses from the public have
:16:01. > :16:02.been coming thick and fast since the Government
:16:03. > :16:04.launched its consultation In fact, by the time
:16:05. > :16:07.it closed on Tuesday, And for that reason alone,
:16:08. > :16:11.it could take months before a decision on what happens
:16:12. > :16:16.next is taken. The Government will also be minded
:16:17. > :16:19.to listen to its own MPs, One described it to me as Draconian
:16:20. > :16:25.and hugely damaging. So, will the current
:16:26. > :16:27.Culture Secretary's thinking be I don't think the Government
:16:28. > :16:35.will repeal section 40. What I'm arguing for is not
:16:36. > :16:39.to implement it, but it will remain on the statute book and if it then
:16:40. > :16:43.became apparent that Ipso simply was failing to work,
:16:44. > :16:46.was not delivering effective regulation and the press
:16:47. > :16:50.were behaving in a way which was wholly unacceptable,
:16:51. > :16:55.as they were ten years ago, then there might be an argument
:16:56. > :16:58.at that time to think well in that case we are going to have
:16:59. > :17:01.to take further measures, The future of section 40 might not
:17:02. > :17:06.be so black and white. I'm told a compromise could be met
:17:07. > :17:09.whereby the punitive parts about legal costs are dropped,
:17:10. > :17:13.but the incentives to join a recognised
:17:14. > :17:16.regulator are beefed up. But it could yet be some time
:17:17. > :17:18.until the issue of press freedom I'm joined now by Max Mosley -
:17:19. > :17:29.he won a legal case against the News Of The World after it revealed
:17:30. > :17:32.details about his private life, and he now campaigns
:17:33. > :17:41.for more press regulation. Are welcome to the programme. Let me
:17:42. > :17:47.ask you this, how can it be right that you, who many folk think have a
:17:48. > :17:52.clear vendetta against the British press, can bankroll a government
:17:53. > :17:56.approved regulator of the press? If we hadn't done it, nobody would,
:17:57. > :18:00.section 40 would never have come into force because there would never
:18:01. > :18:04.have been a regulator. It is absolutely wrong that a family trust
:18:05. > :18:09.should have to finance something like this. It should be financed by
:18:10. > :18:13.the press or the Government. If we hadn't done it there would be no
:18:14. > :18:37.possibility of regulation. But it means we end up with a
:18:38. > :18:41.regulator financed by you, as I say many people think you have a clear
:18:42. > :18:44.vendetta against the press. Where does the money come from? From a
:18:45. > :18:46.family trust, it is family money. You have to understand that somebody
:18:47. > :18:49.had to do this. I understand that. People like to know where the money
:18:50. > :18:52.comes from, I think you said it came from Brixton Steyn at one stage.
:18:53. > :18:56.Ages ago my father had a trust there but now all my money is in the UK.
:18:57. > :19:01.We are clear about that, but this is money that was put together by your
:19:02. > :19:05.father. Yes, my father inherited it from his father and his father. The
:19:06. > :19:10.whole of Manchester once belonged to the family, that's why there is a
:19:11. > :19:15.Mosley Street. That is irrelevant because as we have given the money,
:19:16. > :19:19.I have no control. If you do the most elementary checks into the
:19:20. > :19:29.contract between my family trust, the trust but finances Impress, it
:19:30. > :19:34.is impossible for me to exert any influence. It is just the same as if
:19:35. > :19:40.it had come from the National lottery. People will find it ironic
:19:41. > :19:48.that the money has come from historically Britain's best-known
:19:49. > :19:53.fascist. No, it has come from my family, the Mosley family. This is
:19:54. > :19:57.complete drivel because we have no control. Where the money comes from
:19:58. > :20:03.doesn't matter, if it had come from the national lottery it would be
:20:04. > :20:07.exactly the same. Impress was completely independent. But it
:20:08. > :20:11.wouldn't exist without your money, wouldn't it? But that doesn't give
:20:12. > :20:17.you influence. It might exist because it was founded before I was
:20:18. > :20:22.ever in contact with them. Isn't it curious then that so many leading
:20:23. > :20:27.light show your hostile views of the press? I don't think it is because I
:20:28. > :20:32.don't know a single member of the Impress board. The chairman I have
:20:33. > :20:40.met months. The only person I know is Jonathan Hayward who you had on
:20:41. > :20:44.just now. In one recent months he tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily
:20:45. > :20:51.Mail, including some calling for an advertising boycott of the paper. He
:20:52. > :20:58.also liked a Twitter post calling me Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are
:20:59. > :21:01.these fitting for what is meant to be impartial regulator? The person
:21:02. > :21:04.you should ask about that is the press regulatory panel and they are
:21:05. > :21:09.completely independent, they reviewed the whole thing. You have
:21:10. > :21:13.probably produced something very selective, I have no idea but I am
:21:14. > :21:17.certain that these people are absolutely trustworthy and
:21:18. > :21:22.independent. It is not just Mr Hayward, we have a tonne of things
:21:23. > :21:26.he has tweeted calling for boycotts, remember this is the man that would
:21:27. > :21:32.be the regulator of these papers. He's the chief executive, that is a
:21:33. > :21:41.separate thing. The administration, the regulator. Many leading light
:21:42. > :21:49.show your vendetta of the press. I do not have a vendetta. Let's take
:21:50. > :22:03.another one. This person is on the code committee. Have a look at this.
:22:04. > :22:09.As someone with these views fit to be involved in the regulation of the
:22:10. > :22:13.press? You said I have a vendetta against the press, I do not, I
:22:14. > :22:19.didn't say that and it is completely wrong to say I have a vendetta. What
:22:20. > :22:25.do you think of that? I don't agree, I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I
:22:26. > :22:37.think it's a dreadful paper but I wouldn't ban it. Another Impress
:22:38. > :22:42.code committee said I hate the Daily Mail, I couldn't agree more, others
:22:43. > :22:46.have called for a boycott. Other people can say what they want and
:22:47. > :22:52.many people may think they are right but surely these views make them
:22:53. > :22:57.unfit to be partial regulators? I have no influence over Impress
:22:58. > :23:04.therefore I cannot say anything about it. You should ask them, not
:23:05. > :23:09.me. All I have done is make it possible for Impress to exist and
:23:10. > :23:14.that was the right thing to do. I'm asking you if people with these kind
:23:15. > :23:19.of views are fit to be regulators of the press. You would have to ask
:23:20. > :23:25.about all of their views, these are some of their views. A lot of people
:23:26. > :23:30.have a downer on the Daily Mail and the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make
:23:31. > :23:37.them party pre-. Why would newspapers sign up to a regulator
:23:38. > :23:41.run by what they think is run by enemies out to ruin them. If they
:23:42. > :23:47.don't like it they should start their own section 40 regulator. They
:23:48. > :23:52.could make it so recognised, if only they would make it independent of
:23:53. > :24:04.the big newspaper barons but they won't -- they could make Ipso
:24:05. > :24:11.recognised. Is the Daily Mail fascist? It certainly was in the
:24:12. > :24:15.1930s. Me and my father are relevant, this whole section 40
:24:16. > :24:20.issue is about access to justice. The press don't want ordinary people
:24:21. > :24:24.who cannot afford to bring an action against the press, don't want them
:24:25. > :24:29.to have access to justice. I can understand that but I don't
:24:30. > :24:33.sympathise. What would happen to the boss of Ofcom, which regulates
:24:34. > :24:41.broadcasters, if it described Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If
:24:42. > :24:55.the press don't want to sign up to Impress they can create their own
:24:56. > :25:00.regulator. If you were to listen we would get a lot further. The press
:25:01. > :25:04.should make their own Levenson compliant regulator, then they would
:25:05. > :25:08.have no complaints at all. Even papers like the Guardian, the
:25:09. > :25:14.Independent, the Financial Times, they show your hostility to tabloid
:25:15. > :25:20.journalism. They have refused to be regulated by Impress. I will say it
:25:21. > :25:25.again, the press could start their own regulator, they do not have to
:25:26. > :25:29.sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant one giving access to justice so
:25:30. > :25:34.people who cannot afford an expensive legal action have a proper
:25:35. > :25:38.arbitration service. The Guardian, the Independent, the Financial
:25:39. > :25:42.Times, they don't want to do that either. That would suggest there is
:25:43. > :25:53.something fatally flawed about your approach. Even these kind of papers,
:25:54. > :26:00.the Guardian, Impress is hardly independent, the head of... Andrew,
:26:01. > :26:08.I am sorry, you are like a dog with a bone. The press could start their
:26:09. > :26:11.own regulator, then people like the Financial Times, the Guardian and so
:26:12. > :26:15.one could decide whether they wanted to join or not but what is
:26:16. > :26:19.absolutely vital is that we should have a proper arbitration service so
:26:20. > :26:24.that people who cannot afford an expensive action have somewhere to
:26:25. > :26:28.go. This business of section 40 which you want to be triggered which
:26:29. > :26:32.would mean papers that didn't sign up to Impress could be sued in any
:26:33. > :26:40.case and they would have to pay potentially massive legal costs,
:26:41. > :26:44.even if they win. Yes. This is what the number of papers have said about
:26:45. > :26:51.this, if section 40 was triggered, the Guardian wouldn't even think of
:26:52. > :26:56.investigation. The Sunday Times said it would not have even started to
:26:57. > :26:58.expose Lance Armstrong. The Times journalist said he couldn't have
:26:59. > :27:05.done the Rotherham child abuse scandal. What they all come it is a
:27:06. > :27:12.full reading of section 40 because that cost shifting will only apply
:27:13. > :27:16.if, and I quote, it is just and equitable in all the circumstances.
:27:17. > :27:20.I cannot conceive of any High Court judge, for example the Lance
:27:21. > :27:24.Armstrong case or the child abuse, saying it is just as equitable in
:27:25. > :27:30.all circumstances the newspaper should pay these costs. Even the
:27:31. > :27:35.editor of index on censorship, which is hardly the Sun, said this would
:27:36. > :27:42.be oppressive and they couldn't do what they do, they would risk being
:27:43. > :27:46.sued by warlords. No because if something unfortunate, some really
:27:47. > :27:49.bad person sues them, what would happen is the judge would say it is
:27:50. > :27:53.just inequitable normal circumstances that person should
:27:54. > :27:57.pay. Section 40 is for the person that comes along and says to a big
:27:58. > :28:02.newspaper, can we go to arbitration because I cannot afford to go to
:28:03. > :28:07.court. The big newspaper says no. That leaves less than 1% of the
:28:08. > :28:13.population with any remedy if the newspapers traduce them. It cannot
:28:14. > :28:18.be right. From the Guardian to the Sun, and including Index On
:28:19. > :28:23.Censorship, all of these media outlets think you are proposing a
:28:24. > :28:26.charter for conmen, warlords, crime bosses, dodgy politicians,
:28:27. > :28:36.celebrities with a grievance against the press. I will give you the final
:28:37. > :28:40.word to address that. It is pure guff and the reason is they want to
:28:41. > :28:44.go on marking their own homework. The press don't want anyone to make
:28:45. > :28:48.sure life is fair. All I want is somebody who has got no money to be
:28:49. > :28:51.able to sue in just the way that I can. All right, thanks for being
:28:52. > :28:55.with us. The doctors' union,
:28:56. > :28:56.the British Medical Association, has said the Government
:28:57. > :28:58.is scapegoating GPs in England The Government has said GP surgeries
:28:59. > :29:02.must try harder to stay open from 8am to 8pm,
:29:03. > :29:05.or they could lose out on funding. The pressure on A services
:29:06. > :29:08.in recent weeks has been intense. It emerged this week that 65
:29:09. > :29:11.of the 152 Health Trusts in England had issued an operational pressure
:29:12. > :29:13.alert in the first At either level three,
:29:14. > :29:20.meaning major pressures, or level four, indicating
:29:21. > :29:22.an inability to deliver On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy
:29:23. > :29:27.Hunt told the Commons that the number of people using A
:29:28. > :29:31.had increased by 9 million But that 30% of those
:29:32. > :29:39.visits were unnecessary. He said that the situation
:29:40. > :29:41.at a number of Trusts On Tuesday, the Royal College
:29:42. > :29:46.of Physicians wrote to the Prime Minister saying
:29:47. > :29:48.the health service was being paralysed by spiralling demand,
:29:49. > :29:54.and urging greater investment. On Wednesday, the Chief Executive
:29:55. > :29:57.of NHS England, Simon Stevens, told a Select Committee that NHS
:29:58. > :30:03.funding will be highly constrained. And from 2018, real-terms spending
:30:04. > :30:07.per person would fall. The Prime Minister described
:30:08. > :30:11.the Red Cross's claim that A was facing a "humanitarian crisis"
:30:12. > :30:15.as "irresponsible and overblown". And the National Audit Office issued
:30:16. > :30:18.a report that found almost half, 46%, of GP surgeries closed at some
:30:19. > :30:25.point during core hours. Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her
:30:26. > :30:29.support for doctors' surgeries opening from 8am to 8pm every day
:30:30. > :30:32.of the week, in order to divert To discuss this, I'm joined
:30:33. > :30:39.now by the Conservative MP Maria Caulfield -
:30:40. > :30:42.she was an NHS nurse in a former life - and Clare Gerada,
:30:43. > :30:53.a former chair of the Royal College Welcome to you both. So, Maria
:30:54. > :30:57.Caulfield, what the Government is saying, Downing Street in effect is
:30:58. > :31:01.saying that GPs do not work hard enough and that's the reason why A
:31:02. > :31:05.was under such pressure? No, I don't think that is the message, I think
:31:06. > :31:08.that is the message that the media have taken up. That is not the
:31:09. > :31:14.expression that we want to give. I still work as a nurse, I know how
:31:15. > :31:18.hard doctors work in hospitals and GP practices. When the rose 30% of
:31:19. > :31:23.people turning up at A for neither an accident or an emergency, we do
:31:24. > :31:28.need to look at alternative. Where is the GPs' operability in this? We
:31:29. > :31:31.know from patients that if they cannot get access to GPs, they will
:31:32. > :31:34.do one of three things. They will wait two or three weeks until they
:31:35. > :31:39.can get an appointment, they will forget about the problem altogether,
:31:40. > :31:42.which is not good, we want patients to be getting investigations at
:31:43. > :31:51.early stages, or they will go to A And that is a problem. I'm not
:31:52. > :31:54.quite sure what the role that GPs play in this. What is your response
:31:55. > :31:57.in that? I think about 70% of patients that I see should not be
:31:58. > :32:01.seen by me but should still be seen by hospital consultants. If we look
:32:02. > :32:06.at it from GPs' eyes and not from hospital's eyes, because that is
:32:07. > :32:10.what it is, we might get somewhere. Tomorrow morning, every practice in
:32:11. > :32:14.England will have about 1.5 GPs shot, that's not even counting if
:32:15. > :32:19.there is traffic problems, sickness or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot
:32:20. > :32:26.work any harder, I cannot physically, emotionally work any
:32:27. > :32:29.harder. We are open 12 hours a day, most of us, I run practices open 365
:32:30. > :32:34.days per year 24 hours a day. I don't understand this. It is one
:32:35. > :32:38.thing attacking me as a GP from working hard enough, but it is
:32:39. > :32:41.another thing saying that GPs as a profession and doing what they
:32:42. > :32:46.should be doing. Let me in National Audit Office has coming up with
:32:47. > :32:53.these figures showing that almost half of doctors' practices are not
:32:54. > :32:57.open during core hours at some part of the week. That's where the
:32:58. > :33:02.implication comes, that they are not working hard enough. What do you say
:33:03. > :33:06.to that? I don't recognise this. I'm not being defensive, I'm just don't
:33:07. > :33:09.recognise it. There are practices working palliative care services,
:33:10. > :33:13.practices have to close home visits if they are single-handed, some of
:33:14. > :33:16.us are working in care homes during the day. They may shot for an hour
:33:17. > :33:23.in the middle of the data will sort out some of the prescriptions and
:33:24. > :33:25.admin -- they may shot. My practice runs a number of practices across
:33:26. > :33:30.London. If we shut during our contractual hours we would have NHS
:33:31. > :33:33.England coming down on us like a tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield,
:33:34. > :33:37.I'm struggling to understand, given the problems the NHS faces,
:33:38. > :33:42.particularly in our hospitals, what this has got to do with the
:33:43. > :33:46.solution? Obviously there are GP practices that are working, you
:33:47. > :33:49.know, over and above the hours. But there are some GP practices, we know
:33:50. > :33:54.from National Audit Office, there are particular black sports --
:33:55. > :33:57.blackspots in the country that only offer services for three hours a
:33:58. > :34:02.week. That's causing problems if they cannot get to see a GP they
:34:03. > :34:06.will go and use A Nobody is saying that this measure would solve
:34:07. > :34:09.problems at A, it would address one small part of its top blog we
:34:10. > :34:15.shouldn't be starting this, as I keep saying, please to this from
:34:16. > :34:18.solving the problems at A We should be starting it from solving
:34:19. > :34:23.the problems of the patients in their totality, the best place they
:34:24. > :34:29.should go, not from A This really upsets me, as a GP I am there to be
:34:30. > :34:33.a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a highly skilled doctor, looking after
:34:34. > :34:39.patients from cradle to grave across the physical, psychological and
:34:40. > :34:42.social, I am not an A doctor. I don't disagree with that, nobody is
:34:43. > :34:47.saying that GPs are not working hard enough. You just did, actually,
:34:48. > :34:53.about some of them. In some practices, what we need to see, it's
:34:54. > :34:55.not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is advanced nurse practitioners,
:34:56. > :35:00.pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily need to be all on the GPs. I think
:35:01. > :35:05.advanced nurse practitioners are in short supply. Position associate or
:35:06. > :35:09.go to hospital, -- physician associates. We have very few
:35:10. > :35:12.trainees, junior doctors in general practice, unlike hospitals, which
:35:13. > :35:17.tend to have some slack with the junior doctor community and
:35:18. > :35:20.workforce. This isn't an argument, this is about saying, let's stop
:35:21. > :35:26.looking at the National health system as a National hospital
:35:27. > :35:30.system. GPs tomorrow will see about 1.3 million patients. That is a lot
:35:31. > :35:36.of thoughtful. A lot of activity with no resources. If you wanted the
:35:37. > :35:40.GPs to behave better, in your terms, when you allocated more money to
:35:41. > :35:43.GPs, part of the reforms, because that's where it went, shouldn't you
:35:44. > :35:47.have targeted it more closely to where they want to operate? That is
:35:48. > :35:52.exactly what the Prime Minister is saying, extra funding is being made
:35:53. > :35:55.available by GPs to extend hours and services. If certain GP practices
:35:56. > :35:59.cannot do that, the money will follow the patient to where they
:36:00. > :36:03.move onto. We have no doctors to do it. I was on a coach last week, the
:36:04. > :36:06.coach driver stopped in the service station for an hour, they were
:36:07. > :36:15.stopping for a rest. We cannot do it. Even if you gave us millions
:36:16. > :36:17.more money, and thankfully NHS is recognising that we need a solution
:36:18. > :36:20.through the five-day week, we haven't got the doctors to deliver
:36:21. > :36:23.this. It would take a while to get them? That's my point, that's why we
:36:24. > :36:27.need to be using all how care professional. Even if you got this
:36:28. > :36:31.right, would it make a difference to what many regard as the crisis in
:36:32. > :36:35.our hospitals? I think it would. If you look at patients, they just want
:36:36. > :36:39.to go to a service that will address the problems. In Scotland for
:36:40. > :36:43.example, pharmacists have their own patient list. Patients go and see
:36:44. > :36:47.the pharmacists first. There are lots of conditions, for example if
:36:48. > :36:51.you want anticoagulants, you don't necessarily need to see a doctor, a
:36:52. > :36:56.pharmacist can manage that and free up the doctor in other ways. The
:36:57. > :36:58.Prime Minister has said that if things do not change she is
:36:59. > :37:01.threatening to reduce funding to things do not change she is
:37:02. > :37:04.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an
:37:05. > :37:09.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.
:37:10. > :37:13.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in
:37:14. > :37:17.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into
:37:18. > :37:21.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely
:37:22. > :37:25.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are
:37:26. > :37:29.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.
:37:30. > :37:32.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the
:37:33. > :37:34.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,
:37:35. > :37:37.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:38. > :37:43.in Scotland, who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:37:44. > :37:44.to Sunday Politics Scotland. Both Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy Corbyn
:37:45. > :37:49.want to relaunch their respective bits of the Labour Party -
:37:50. > :37:51.but will the public I'll be speaking to
:37:52. > :37:56.the deputy leader of The head of the BMA tells us the NHS
:37:57. > :38:03.is approaching system breakdown. And new rules to stop
:38:04. > :38:06.the concentration of betting shops But is it enough to stop
:38:07. > :38:13.problem gambling? After being relegated to the third
:38:14. > :38:16.party in the Scottish Parliament, Labour have been looking
:38:17. > :38:18.to rebuild their support. But with the negative headlines
:38:19. > :38:21.about the party down south and the party up here struggling
:38:22. > :38:24.to gain a hearing from its former supporters, is there a future
:38:25. > :38:27.for Scottish Labour? With council elections coming up,
:38:28. > :38:30.it's rather an urgent I'm joined now by the Deputy leader
:38:31. > :38:43.of Scottish Labour, Alex Rowley. Can I just ask you something quickly
:38:44. > :38:50.about this Constitutional Convention idea that you'd got -
:38:51. > :38:55.is this going to be set up now? Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn is in Scotland
:38:56. > :39:00.this week, it he will be setting out his view in terms of a UK
:39:01. > :39:02.constitutional convention. The Scottish Labour Party will input
:39:03. > :39:06.constitutional convention. The into that. We've said we need to
:39:07. > :39:10.look at, not Scotland, but the rest of the United Kingdom, so yes, that
:39:11. > :39:16.will come forward. He did an interview with Andrew Marr
:39:17. > :39:19.this morning, and he said, we're going to be continuing with
:39:20. > :39:24.discussions in Scotland next Friday, we're setting up a constitutional
:39:25. > :39:31.convention, is that when we get towards the general election, we
:39:32. > :39:35.will be in some degree of consensus. It was Labour who set up their
:39:36. > :39:38.Constitutional Convention in Scotland which led to the Scottish
:39:39. > :39:45.parliament. What is clear is that the UK constitution is no longer in
:39:46. > :39:48.line with where Government right across the UK is.
:39:49. > :39:53.I thought it was an idea that you might do a few won an election. But
:39:54. > :39:59.you say this is great to be set up in your starting to plan for it?
:40:00. > :40:01.Absolutely, we will be asking other political parties, and Jeremy Corbyn
:40:02. > :40:04.will say some thing about that. This is the approach that Labour took to
:40:05. > :40:09.set up a Scottish parliament, to set is the approach that Labour took to
:40:10. > :40:17.up and all Haydn party convention and for the wider society.
:40:18. > :40:21.This would be up in morning when? Jeremy Corbyn will speak for himself
:40:22. > :40:25.later in the week, the discussions within Scottish Labour is that we
:40:26. > :40:31.need to get that convention up and running as soon as possible.
:40:32. > :40:36.OK. Jeremy Corbyn said this week he was not wedded to free movement of
:40:37. > :40:43.labour, something you don't seem to agree with? Emily Thornley said this
:40:44. > :40:48.morning, Labour wouldn't die in a ditch for it?
:40:49. > :40:51.There is concern right across the United Kingdom in terms of
:40:52. > :40:56.immigration. What politicians should learn is that we should not run away
:40:57. > :41:00.from that discussion or debate. What I and Scottish Labour has said is
:41:01. > :41:05.that, in Scotland, economic migration has been good for
:41:06. > :41:10.Scotland. Looking ahead, we need to have economic migration in Scotland.
:41:11. > :41:14.Having that discussion about post-Brexit, what is the best way
:41:15. > :41:20.forward, what we're saying, the migration for Scotland is actually
:41:21. > :41:24.something our economy needs. So if Nicola Sturgeon and the
:41:25. > :41:28.Scottish Government try to get some sort of control over immigration as
:41:29. > :41:31.part of a deal in Brexit, you would support them?
:41:32. > :41:34.We need to see what Theresa may has to say this week. We need to see
:41:35. > :41:39.what the Brexit deal will be on the table. Scotland had input into that
:41:40. > :41:45.discussion. In principle, it you wouldn't mind
:41:46. > :41:48.Scotland having some sort of control over immigration?
:41:49. > :41:51.We know we're going to be leaving the European Union, we don't know
:41:52. > :41:55.what that deal will mean, it may mean there is some kind of
:41:56. > :42:00.immigration policy. We need to look at what Scotland's interests were,
:42:01. > :42:04.and how best Scotland but that our interests of forward in terms of
:42:05. > :42:08.economic migrations, which we need in Scotland.
:42:09. > :42:11.You wouldn't, in principle, be against Scotland having some sort of
:42:12. > :42:16.control over immigration? We can look at that. There was a
:42:17. > :42:26.group of MPs last week suggested that may be possible. We need to be
:42:27. > :42:28.clear that, in Scotland, we do need to have more people coming to work
:42:29. > :42:31.in Scotland. Economic migration has been good for Scotland. It is a
:42:32. > :42:35.necessary step, moving forward. We need to have up policy which best
:42:36. > :42:38.suits Scotland within the United Kingdom.
:42:39. > :42:43.The news agenda has been dominated by the speech from Theresa May where
:42:44. > :42:46.it is said she's good at wind policy that means that Britain leads the
:42:47. > :42:50.single market and customs union. Do you support the Scottish
:42:51. > :42:55.Government's efforts to get some, I don't UK deal to get the UK to stay
:42:56. > :43:00.in the single market, or failing that, Scotland to remain?
:43:01. > :43:04.I feel in the best interests of the United Kingdom we need to remain in
:43:05. > :43:09.the single market. Failing that, we need to look at the options for
:43:10. > :43:13.Scotland. We need to recognise that our biggest market is the rest of
:43:14. > :43:19.the United Kingdom. Sure, but I'm not arguing about
:43:20. > :43:24.independence, I'm asking you whether you support the efforts to get a
:43:25. > :43:32.deal for Scotland? It would be best have a balance we
:43:33. > :43:35.can achieve both. We have said to the Scottish Government we will work
:43:36. > :43:39.alongside them to get the best deal possible for Scotland within the
:43:40. > :43:46.United Kingdom. You said in July last year, you
:43:47. > :43:51.wouldn't be opposed to having another independence referendum. If
:43:52. > :43:55.that still your view? We get caught up too much in the
:43:56. > :43:59.question of referendum. We just had Brexit, we need to regret the best
:44:00. > :44:04.deal, going forward, for Scotland in the United Kingdom.
:44:05. > :44:09.But the Scottish Government has said it is highly likely?
:44:10. > :44:12.We need to listen to the Scottish people, since Brexit, poll after
:44:13. > :44:18.poll has shown the Scottish people don't want another referendum now.
:44:19. > :44:23.I use an you've change your mind? No, what're singers we need the best
:44:24. > :44:24.possible deal for Brexit, and we can do that by ruling out the
:44:25. > :44:27.possibility of a referendum within do that by ruling out the
:44:28. > :44:29.the lifetime of this Parliament, so you can see what the best deal for
:44:30. > :44:34.Scotland, coming out of the European Union.
:44:35. > :44:38.Let me reiterate to you what you said, you said, I would not oppose
:44:39. > :44:43.another independence referendum. I accept that the SNP were clear and
:44:44. > :44:48.there is manifesto that the Scottish parliament would have the right to
:44:49. > :44:53.hold one it was a change in circumstances since 2014, such as
:44:54. > :44:55.Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will?
:44:56. > :44:58.And I accept that the majority of people in Scotland had made clear
:44:59. > :45:02.time and time again since that referendum, since the European
:45:03. > :45:06.referendum, that we should take another referendum off the table for
:45:07. > :45:12.now, and should be looking at getting the best deal possible for
:45:13. > :45:16.Scotland within the United Kingdom. But you don't contradict that the
:45:17. > :45:22.SNP have the right to hold one? Not a contradiction, but we should
:45:23. > :45:27.listen to the people of Scotland. Poll after poll, and indeed on the
:45:28. > :45:29.doorsteps, I was on the doorsteps of Fife yesterday, campaigning, and
:45:30. > :45:33.people are saying that we should not have another referendum. We should
:45:34. > :45:36.find out what the best way forward is for Scotland as part of the
:45:37. > :45:40.Brexit deal. Kezia Dugdale said on this programme
:45:41. > :45:47.in September 2015 that she didn't want to shut down debate in the and
:45:48. > :45:50.collected Labour members and is politicians should be able to
:45:51. > :45:53.campaign for independence there is another referendum. Is that still
:45:54. > :45:57.the case? What the Labour Party in Scotland
:45:58. > :46:01.are saying is that we should take the question of referendum off the
:46:02. > :46:06.table for this Parliament. But there is another one, and Nicola
:46:07. > :46:11.Sturgeon says it is highly likely. If I'm a Labour MSP, can I campaign
:46:12. > :46:14.for independence? What we're saying is that there are
:46:15. > :46:17.two polar opposite is being presented. The SNP want
:46:18. > :46:22.independence, which we don't believe would be in Scotland's best
:46:23. > :46:27.interests. But Kezia Dugdale says Webber MSPs
:46:28. > :46:32.will be able to campaign for it? If I'm Labour Party member, will I be
:46:33. > :46:34.allowed to campaign for independence?
:46:35. > :46:37.In February, we will go to conference and put forward an
:46:38. > :46:40.alternative to both those point of use, which will be that we need to
:46:41. > :46:45.move forward and Scotland needs to remain part of the United Kingdom,
:46:46. > :46:48.reject independence, reject the status quo in Westminster and go for
:46:49. > :46:56.a more federal system. We're going to be asking our conference...
:46:57. > :47:01.But if I'm a Labour MSP remember, can I campaign for independence?
:47:02. > :47:04.I would expect Labour members and MSPs to support the position our
:47:05. > :47:09.conference takes on fabric. So they don't come to favour
:47:10. > :47:12.independence, you're not allowed to campaign for its?
:47:13. > :47:20.I would expect MSPs to endorse the position our conference takes in
:47:21. > :47:23.February. We're Democratic party. You've had dozens of positions on
:47:24. > :47:28.independence, both you and Kezia Dugdale, over the past 12 months. At
:47:29. > :47:32.one point, Kezia Dugdale said you might even vote for independence.
:47:33. > :47:40.You're oh over the place. What we need is an alternative to
:47:41. > :47:43.the status quo in Westminster. Can you understand the public
:47:44. > :47:46.thinking you aren't part of the debate?
:47:47. > :47:54.We are looking towards a position on as federal setup. I would expect
:47:55. > :47:58.that if that's Labour Party policy is decided on their break, that MSPs
:47:59. > :48:02.would support that policy. So they can to campaign for
:48:03. > :48:08.independence. Would expect them to support party
:48:09. > :48:12.policy. We will put forward a proposal, in fabric, for a federal
:48:13. > :48:16.approach to the United Kingdom. If you want to get back on the
:48:17. > :48:21.agenda for Labour in Scotland, there are things you to sort out. The
:48:22. > :48:26.Scottish Secretary, David Anderson, wonderful chap I'm surely years,
:48:27. > :48:28.represent a constituency in Newcastle. Is that a satisfactory
:48:29. > :48:31.state of affairs? The first thing we need to do is
:48:32. > :48:37.have a clear policy on the constitution.
:48:38. > :48:40.Is it acceptable that Labour's shadow Scottish Secretary is from
:48:41. > :48:46.Newcastle? As the result of a general election
:48:47. > :48:49.will be lost all but one seat in Scotland, we don't have that
:48:50. > :48:53.position. We are in that position because we have not been consistent
:48:54. > :48:57.on policy on the constitution. That is the first and we need to address,
:48:58. > :49:00.and we will address it at our conference and debris, where we set
:49:01. > :49:06.out very clearly our position on the constitution.
:49:07. > :49:10.But if you're all going to come together, wouldn't be more sensible
:49:11. > :49:13.for Ian Murray to rejoin Jeremy Corbyn's team?
:49:14. > :49:20.That is the matter for those two gentlemen. We are where we are and
:49:21. > :49:24.in a situation we are in. We've got one MP in Scotland, and it is for
:49:25. > :49:28.that MP and the leader of the party at UK level to decide if he is bound
:49:29. > :49:36.to be part of that Shadow Cabinet. Banca very much.
:49:37. > :49:39.This week the Health Secretary Shona Robison will make a statement
:49:40. > :49:41.to MSPs about the delay in the opening of a network
:49:42. > :49:44.The issue prompted some lively exchanges at last week's
:49:45. > :49:48.But, after weeks of headlines detailing problems at NHS
:49:49. > :49:49.hospitals in England, what is the state of
:49:50. > :49:54.Just before we came on air, I spoke to Dr Peter Bennie, who's the chair
:49:55. > :50:08.You have spoken about how spending on the health service has stagnated
:50:09. > :50:12.since the financial crash. Politicians say it has increased in
:50:13. > :50:15.real terms. I assume what you mean is that that may be true but it is
:50:16. > :50:22.not increasing in a way that the demand of the services increasing?
:50:23. > :50:28.Yes. The requirement that health service has is at least 4% increase
:50:29. > :50:32.just a standstill, that is primarily because of the cost of drugs and the
:50:33. > :50:37.cost of new technology. Factoring also that as each year goes by, the
:50:38. > :50:44.population grows and multiple illnesses and we do not have the to
:50:45. > :50:47.keep doing everything we are doing now. But realistically in current
:50:48. > :50:51.times, 4% per annum increase is just not going to happen. That is at
:50:52. > :50:58.least the case that since the austerity policies from the UK
:50:59. > :51:01.Government came into place in 2010, health service across the UK has
:51:02. > :51:06.felt the brunt of that, yes. What is the solution to this? If you give
:51:07. > :51:13.focus to the health service and its current situation, and where other
:51:14. > :51:16.services are being cut more than the health service even further. First
:51:17. > :51:21.and foremost we want politicians across all parties to be honest
:51:22. > :51:26.about this. If you look at the recruitment position, we're running
:51:27. > :51:33.vacancies right across the country, urban, rural, GP and we are fed up
:51:34. > :51:37.with a mantra that says coming from the government we have more doctors
:51:38. > :51:39.than ever before. The point is we need more again in order for people
:51:40. > :51:45.to provide the service that people require. So why are you fed up? It
:51:46. > :51:49.is true that there are more doctors than ever before. Because that court
:51:50. > :51:55.is not relevant. The relevant question is do we have enough
:51:56. > :52:04.doctors? Do we have enough nurses, do we have enough staff out of the
:52:05. > :52:07.health service to provide the care that people need? At present we do
:52:08. > :52:13.not. Because that goes up year on year. Is the problem that we are not
:52:14. > :52:13.training enough doctors and nurses to get the numbers even if the money
:52:14. > :52:18.was there or what? Training in some areas of the health service
:52:19. > :52:20.need to improve. But for doctors we are training enough and we are going
:52:21. > :52:26.to train more and their own initiatives to try and increase the
:52:27. > :52:30.intake from the poorer sectors of society as well. All of that is
:52:31. > :52:37.good. But the jobs themselves need to be more attractive than they are
:52:38. > :52:40.at present. What does that mean? It means if you take general practice
:52:41. > :52:42.for instance, right now general practitioners are stretched to
:52:43. > :52:49.breaking point and a lot of what they're doing is work that could and
:52:50. > :52:52.should be done by other members of the community staff, but that staff
:52:53. > :52:56.isn't there. Now the government is working with the BMA with no real be
:52:57. > :53:03.casting of primary care so that general practitioners are doing much
:53:04. > :53:05.more of the complex care for patients in the community and the
:53:06. > :53:09.more basic tasks are being done others. But the funding has to flow
:53:10. > :53:14.to provide those extra staff in order to do it will stop that makes
:53:15. > :53:21.the GP job far more rewarding and effective and we think it will
:53:22. > :53:24.improve recruitment. Ayew simply saying, give us more money. Order
:53:25. > :53:29.using money coming into the NHS could be spent on a better way? What
:53:30. > :53:33.using money coming into the NHS we are saying is if there isn't
:53:34. > :53:40.substantially more money then we want all politicians to open up an
:53:41. > :53:44.honest debate with the public about what the hell services going to be
:53:45. > :53:47.doing, because it cannot be doing everything it is trying to do now.
:53:48. > :53:51.We simply do not have the resources in terms of the people and the money
:53:52. > :53:58.in order to do that. So there will have to be some treatments could not
:53:59. > :54:01.be carried out on the NHS? There are various different ways to look at
:54:02. > :54:04.it. And the first step is to move away from the impression that the
:54:05. > :54:12.government tries to give that things are OK just now. Because they are
:54:13. > :54:14.not. And where are they not? As I missing earlier, we simply do not
:54:15. > :54:22.have enough staffing and enough financing. To do everything the
:54:23. > :54:24.health service needs to do. We are stretched pretty much to breaking
:54:25. > :54:31.point just trying to keep things going. If you take the situation
:54:32. > :54:34.with consultant vacancies, we have consultant posts vacant for over six
:54:35. > :54:40.months that are advertised that cannot be filled. What happens when
:54:41. > :54:43.that is that all of the other staffs, consultants another doctors
:54:44. > :54:47.and nurses, are taking on more work to trying keep things going. The
:54:48. > :54:50.majority of staff in the health service are working way beyond what
:54:51. > :54:58.they're supposed to be doing just to keep things running. And that reads
:54:59. > :54:59.to personal breakdown and eventually leads to system breakdown. What does
:55:00. > :55:03.that mean? If you say you are leads to system breakdown. What does
:55:04. > :55:10.stretched to breaking point. What a system mean in the NHS? In effect
:55:11. > :55:15.what we are concerned about is that we will not real to recruit to the
:55:16. > :55:17.vacancies that we have. In fact the opposite, doctors will choose not to
:55:18. > :55:22.work in the health service and go abroad. It means that the system
:55:23. > :55:26.cannot do what it has to do, we cannot look after patients in a safe
:55:27. > :55:32.way. We are not at that point at the moment, but it is moving towards
:55:33. > :55:33.that. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed.
:55:34. > :55:36.Here to discuss are two MSPs from Holyrood's Health Committee.
:55:37. > :55:38.For the SNP, Ivan McKee, and in our Edinburgh
:55:39. > :55:42.studio is Miles Briggs, from the Scottish Conservatives.
:55:43. > :55:53.Ivan, system breakdown sounds pretty alarming. Yes. You also heard the
:55:54. > :55:56.doctor saying the government is working with the BMA to move forward
:55:57. > :56:03.to resolve issues. The whole premise is that health expenditure has to
:56:04. > :56:08.rise to keep in pace with demand. The SNP Government has committed
:56:09. > :56:11.?500 million more than inflation over this government which more than
:56:12. > :56:17.any other government has committed to than in the election. That is the
:56:18. > :56:24.reality, we putting resources. So he is wrong to say that? We are putting
:56:25. > :56:28.more resources than. We recognise that as part of the issue. He says
:56:29. > :56:32.but as things stand at the moment, things are stretched to breaking
:56:33. > :56:40.point and could be a system breaking point in the NHS, so they cannot
:56:41. > :56:46.take care of patients safely. The government is working with the BMA.
:56:47. > :56:51.You are not addressing the point. Let me finish. We have put more
:56:52. > :56:53.resources and, we have committed ?500 million more than inflation
:56:54. > :57:03.more than any other party. We are also addressing the issues round
:57:04. > :57:06.about the health of the Seo/ Raqqa service. Which is what the BMA asked
:57:07. > :57:12.for us, to prevent that preventative side of things to be more effective.
:57:13. > :57:16.The shift to primary care which is imported and the integration of
:57:17. > :57:20.health and social is critically aborted. There are a number of
:57:21. > :57:25.things that are happening as well to make it more effective. System
:57:26. > :57:28.breakdown, do you find that alarming. What we have heard from
:57:29. > :57:31.Ivan is what the BMA have been complaining about, ministers are
:57:32. > :57:38.dictating what they think they should be doing. We need to have a
:57:39. > :57:42.wider discussion here. It is clear our health service in Scotland is
:57:43. > :57:49.struggling. Last week the city that Ivan represents, they had to turn
:57:50. > :57:52.away expectant mothers. We should be working across Parliament to resolve
:57:53. > :57:55.these. That is why we are forcing ministers to come to Parliament next
:57:56. > :57:58.week to tell us why trauma centres across Scotland have been delayed
:57:59. > :58:06.for three years. Nothing you are saying addresses Peter Bennie's
:58:07. > :58:13.point about system breakdown. You are not proposing to put any more
:58:14. > :58:24.money in by the Conservatives than the SNP are. We have said that we
:58:25. > :58:27.want to see that commitment. GPs are the first line in the health service
:58:28. > :58:32.and for two long they have been undervalued. You are talking about
:58:33. > :58:35.diverting existing money. While both of you are saying sounds like
:58:36. > :58:40.fiddling at the margins, whereas Doctor Bennie is saying is there is
:58:41. > :58:48.a potential serious crisis. If we'll look at the facts around this, since
:58:49. > :58:52.2010 the UK Government have increased health spending around the
:58:53. > :58:56.health service. Yes, what you're doing what Ivan dead. Peter Bennie
:58:57. > :59:09.said he was fed up about hearing about what politicians were doing.
:59:10. > :59:19.-- Ivan did.. We know we have an ageing population. That should not
:59:20. > :59:21.be a problem but an asset. How we look at redesigning services across
:59:22. > :59:27.Scotland to meet that challenge. That is something we have been
:59:28. > :59:33.putting ideas forward. The Scottish Government is not taking those on
:59:34. > :59:35.board. Do we need to have at some point, we put significant income tax
:59:36. > :59:44.significantly to pay for the needs of the NHS, or we say, look, we
:59:45. > :59:48.cannot do, the NHS cannot do everything it is expected to do. The
:59:49. > :59:52.debate is going all the time, there is lots going on to reshape the
:59:53. > :59:59.health service and move it forward. The SNP committed to fit ?500
:00:00. > :00:03.million. It is the fact that we have committed to increase the 11% then
:00:04. > :00:07.spend on primary care is all GPs have got that money. We have already
:00:08. > :00:11.committed to do that. We have done those things. In terms of reshaping
:00:12. > :00:21.the health service, that debate is going all the time. The reshaping of
:00:22. > :00:26.health and social is moving apace in Scotland. The refocus on primary
:00:27. > :00:29.care. The agenda around preventative Scotland. The refocus on primary
:00:30. > :00:36.spend which we talk about every week is critically important. From both
:00:37. > :00:40.of you, Peter Bennie said that the system are stretched to breaking
:00:41. > :00:44.point and that if this continues, he says we're not there but we could
:00:45. > :00:47.have a system breakdown. He says that what that means that the NHS
:00:48. > :00:54.will not be to care of patients safely. It is more money which we
:00:55. > :00:57.are doing. It is more doctors and nurses, which we are doing. And it
:00:58. > :01:00.is reshaping the health service. There is no magic one tier. There
:01:01. > :01:08.are a number of things that need to be done here. What are the BMA
:01:09. > :01:11.worried about? You pressed him on that. He said yes the government is
:01:12. > :01:16.working with the BMA to move this forward. We have agreed and signed
:01:17. > :01:25.up to 11% that we asked for. We are taking significant steps to recruit
:01:26. > :01:28.more doctors and nurses. In the last ten years since the SNP in
:01:29. > :01:33.government, numbers have troubled. You have just given us a number of
:01:34. > :01:39.what the Tories in London have been doing. Do you think the BMA are just
:01:40. > :01:42.Daft and do not understand all these wonderful things that politicians
:01:43. > :01:47.are doing further? Not at all. This is where the debate should start.
:01:48. > :01:51.Our health service does not depend on the SNP government. It depends on
:01:52. > :01:54.the people who work day in, day out to deliver it. We want to make their
:01:55. > :02:01.life easier. That is crisis point that the BMA are warning about is
:02:02. > :02:04.coming about because of the demands in health service and how our health
:02:05. > :02:08.services are managing to court. We are finding out every single week
:02:09. > :02:13.units which are not performing as well as they should be. Across
:02:14. > :02:17.Scotland how our health service and our workforce planning has been
:02:18. > :02:21.designed. Have not had a work force plan for ten years under this
:02:22. > :02:22.government, so how can we work out what health professionals we need
:02:23. > :02:26.and how we deliver health across what health professionals we need
:02:27. > :02:29.Scotland? We will need to leave it there. Thank you both very much.
:02:30. > :02:32.Councils are about to get new powers from Parliament to tackle concerns
:02:33. > :02:34.about betting shops opening multiple outlets and
:02:35. > :02:38.The rule change aims to make it easier for local authorities
:02:39. > :02:39.to reject future applications if they want.
:02:40. > :02:41.But the bookmakers body says the industry operates responsibly,
:02:42. > :02:43.under tough regulation, and supports local economies.
:02:44. > :02:45.Our reporter Andrew Black has been to West Dunbartonshire,
:02:46. > :02:56.which has Scotland's highest concentration of betting shops.
:02:57. > :03:04.Gambling became my be all and end all and it was the most important
:03:05. > :03:10.thing in my life. I gambled all my money and it was my mother's
:03:11. > :03:15.birthday and I could not buy her a gift. The guilt and remorse really
:03:16. > :03:18.hit home. Bob is gambling addict. It started off with the odd punt on the
:03:19. > :03:22.football and horses became something started off with the odd punt on the
:03:23. > :03:25.much worse serious. I ran my own business at the time and I should
:03:26. > :03:29.have been there since eight o'clock in the morning. But I had not left
:03:30. > :03:31.work until six o'clock that morning. I would sleep till 12 in the day and
:03:32. > :03:37.at 12 o'clock I would go to the I would sleep till 12 in the day and
:03:38. > :03:41.bookmakers again. I would be there until closing time or until I lost
:03:42. > :03:43.my money. Then I would go back to work and work through the night. And
:03:44. > :03:55.then the same routine perpetuated itself. So, yeah, it got bad. In
:03:56. > :03:58.Clydebank, there is concern is about bookmakers. This town is an West
:03:59. > :04:05.Dunbartonshire which has the highest number of betting shops per person
:04:06. > :04:08.in Scotland. Here we are in Clydebank town centre. To give you
:04:09. > :04:10.an idea of the concentration of bookmakers shops in the area, here
:04:11. > :04:30.is one of my shoulder. A second one just ran the corner,
:04:31. > :04:36.another just round the road. Up all of these within 100m of each other.
:04:37. > :04:39.The local planning chairman says that makers target less well off
:04:40. > :04:45.areas. I don't doubt that areas like
:04:46. > :04:51.Clydebank that have highly levels of deprivation are not able to say that
:04:52. > :04:56.they aren't feeding on the honourable. That's my opinion.
:04:57. > :05:03.Traditionally, bookmakers have found it easy to open a location at a
:05:04. > :05:09.premises previously used by a bank on the grounds that provide a
:05:10. > :05:12.financial service. Councils are considering new powers for
:05:13. > :05:14.applications in their own right. West Dunbartonshire Council says it
:05:15. > :05:20.will use those powers to stop bookmakers opening up, whether a lot
:05:21. > :05:27.they wanted. Each application will be taken on
:05:28. > :05:32.its merits, the likelihood is that there is a good likelihood that they
:05:33. > :05:36.would not be allowed within town centres.
:05:37. > :05:43.Are a betting shop starting poor areas?
:05:44. > :05:47.Betting shops open in areas with high footfall undermanned. Since the
:05:48. > :05:51.2008 crash, where we had a lot of High Street names go bust, we had a
:05:52. > :05:58.situation where bookmakers made from secondary locations into prime, town
:05:59. > :06:02.centre, High Street locations. In doing so, they brought a vibrancy to
:06:03. > :06:04.our town centres, they brought jobs and investment into error
:06:05. > :06:08.communities. They are providing business rates. The number of
:06:09. > :06:12.bookmakers across Scotland has actually been a decline in recent
:06:13. > :06:17.years. If you look at the estate today, computer 1970s, it has almost
:06:18. > :06:22.halved. With lost 300 shops across the UK in the last year. Many of
:06:23. > :06:27.them small operators. The betting industry says it's
:06:28. > :06:31.already heavily regulate it and promotes responsible gambling.
:06:32. > :06:34.Meanwhile, councils like West Dunbartonshire says they're not
:06:35. > :06:36.opposed to betting shops out right, but say there's an important balance
:06:37. > :06:37.to be struck. If you're affected by gambling
:06:38. > :06:40.and would like more information, you can contact the Gamblers
:06:41. > :06:42.Anonymous Scotland helpline It's time to look back at the events
:06:43. > :06:51.of the past week and see what's And my guests this week
:06:52. > :07:02.are the political editor of the Press Association Scotland,
:07:03. > :07:04.Katrine Bussey and Tom Gordon who's Scottish political
:07:05. > :07:15.editor at the Herald. Let's start with Labour. Katrine,
:07:16. > :07:20.the idea that Kezia Dugdale, that you can be a Labour MSP or a member
:07:21. > :07:23.and campaign for independence as there's another referendum, that
:07:24. > :07:29.since gone out the window? It does with Alex Rowley's comments,
:07:30. > :07:34.yes. Basically, you'll do what we decide at party conference. In a
:07:35. > :07:39.way, it's good to see a clarity of message coming from Labour. I'm
:07:40. > :07:44.thinking about how they've had also serve opinions on independence in
:07:45. > :07:48.the last year or so, and recently Jackie Smith tweeting about the
:07:49. > :07:52.importance of clarity, saying it's like a good underwear. You don't
:07:53. > :07:57.want to wave it around, but you miss it when it's not there.
:07:58. > :07:59.I think the idea, when Kezia Dugdale may the initial proposal, was to say
:08:00. > :08:05.I think the idea, when Kezia Dugdale we want to be open to everyone and
:08:06. > :08:15.we realise that a lot of were people who vote Labour, voted yeah to
:08:16. > :08:18.independence. We might have the benefit of clarity, but the media
:08:19. > :08:23.price to pay as well. There might be, and it is a work in
:08:24. > :08:27.progress for Labour at the moment. They're putting together this
:08:28. > :08:34.constitutional framework together, and progress will continue in that
:08:35. > :08:37.quite quickly. Maybe, as Jeremy Corbyn says, by the time the next
:08:38. > :08:44.election comes around, they will have a package to pitch to voters.
:08:45. > :08:48.What are you policy of you will do what you are told?
:08:49. > :08:52.It is difficult for Labour, a number of the candidates they had in the
:08:53. > :08:57.election openly voted for Yes at the election, and they were slapped
:08:58. > :09:01.down, as part of the Broadchurch that Labour had. Since then, there
:09:02. > :09:08.been a problem with so many people freelancing.
:09:09. > :09:12.If that is the case that the party conference decides against test
:09:13. > :09:20.welcome he didn't suggest that, but let's assume it will,
:09:21. > :09:25.-, will Labour candidates Bay that instruction, do you think?
:09:26. > :09:31.It won't be long before the next Holyrood or general election comes
:09:32. > :09:37.to the test. Labour are groping their way towards a position. The
:09:38. > :09:40.SNP and Conservatives are unified on their possessions. Labour, with
:09:41. > :09:46.people and virtually every camp, or trying to arrive at a solution.
:09:47. > :09:50.The problem they have is that it would involve devolution in England.
:09:51. > :09:55.John Prescott tried that, not the wanted it. Jeremy Corbyn was talking
:09:56. > :09:57.about this morning. You need that English bets, to get a
:09:58. > :10:02.constitutional settlement for the entire UK?
:10:03. > :10:09.Libertad Gotze been banging on about it for decades and it hasn't come to
:10:10. > :10:16.pass. -- Liberal Democrats have been. The solution may never come to
:10:17. > :10:20.pass, but it may satisfy them politically in the short term.
:10:21. > :10:24.The problem they have, when it comes to nationalists, you can do better
:10:25. > :10:27.than the Scottish Nationalists. When it comes to unionism, the Tories
:10:28. > :10:30.have that stitched up. The Tories have defined themselves
:10:31. > :10:35.as the party of the union. The cool as the party of the union. The cool
:10:36. > :10:44.-- the clue is in the name, as Ruth Davidson would say. Labour have
:10:45. > :10:48.flip-flopped a bit. Brexit, Tom, if any of the stuff
:10:49. > :10:53.we're been hearing about all morning is true, about what Theresa May is
:10:54. > :10:56.going to say, this is not been focused on, but she's effectively
:10:57. > :11:03.saying to Nicola Sturgeon, you can just forget it?
:11:04. > :11:06.It does sound like that. She said the Conservative conference she
:11:07. > :11:12.wouldn't sign up to the ECG, she would prioritise immigration control
:11:13. > :11:21.over freedom of movement. All those things are the last thing that
:11:22. > :11:25.Nicola Sturgeon once to hear. So it looks like Theresa May, the small
:11:26. > :11:29.quotes we have from the speech, are talking about one nation will stop
:11:30. > :11:37.and people who were on the Remain side coming together and putting
:11:38. > :11:45.that behind them. So what do you do? Do you say we'll
:11:46. > :11:50.have a second referendum or do you fudge it a bit?
:11:51. > :11:54.It makes it very hard for Nicola Sturgeon to avoid having a second
:11:55. > :11:59.referendum. He had this very specific example in the SNP
:12:00. > :12:02.manifesto about what would trigger a second referendum. Theresa May is
:12:03. > :12:06.going to deliver an effectively big slap in the face to her plan, the
:12:07. > :12:13.colour sturgeon and around and say, the conditions were met from our
:12:14. > :12:15.manifesto, the conditions we have two endured are intolerable, and a
:12:16. > :12:20.thinker and troops want it to happen.
:12:21. > :12:25.This is getting tighter and tighter happen.
:12:26. > :12:30.issue, isn't it? The other side is presumably the SNP aren't
:12:31. > :12:36.entirely... There was talk last year they wanted 60 present in the polls
:12:37. > :12:40.for six months or so. The old line, you don't have a referendum in less
:12:41. > :12:44.you're absolutely certain you can win it. But like they can't be
:12:45. > :12:48.certain? Nicola Sturgeon might find herself
:12:49. > :12:52.painted into a corner. She came at very strongly and quickly after the
:12:53. > :12:56.European referendum and said, this makes another independence
:12:57. > :12:59.referendum highly likely. But since then, there has not been the shift
:13:00. > :13:05.in the polls she might perhaps have hoped to have seen.
:13:06. > :13:10.Let's briefly mention section 40, Andrew Neil was talking to Max
:13:11. > :13:16.Mosley, are you concerned about it? We have very little time.
:13:17. > :13:21.TA are very concerned about it, they have made a submission to the UK
:13:22. > :13:26.Government warning about the chilling threat this poses, it is an
:13:27. > :13:33.expensive unnecessary injustice. All journalists have to be concerned.
:13:34. > :13:39.The Herald not taking part? Where are not for it. It is a
:13:40. > :13:42.charlatan's charger, you get punished for telling the truth. It's
:13:43. > :13:45.outrageous. And they would convince the Herald
:13:46. > :13:47.to change its mind. We are very firmly against it.
:13:48. > :13:52.Thank you. I'll be back at the
:13:53. > :13:56.same time next week.