:01:07. > :01:10.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven
:01:11. > :01:13.mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.
:01:14. > :01:16.The President says "it's working out very nicely"
:01:17. > :01:18.And Sunday Politics Scotland is on earlier at 11.25,
:01:19. > :01:19.when Scottish Liberal Democrat leader
:01:20. > :01:23.Willie Rennie says he'll push it to an election if they don't get
:01:24. > :01:29.what they want on the Scottish Budget.
:01:30. > :01:30.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's
:01:31. > :01:33.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:01:34. > :01:35.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze
:01:36. > :01:37.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.
:01:38. > :01:39.And with me, the best and brightest political
:01:40. > :01:41.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia
:01:42. > :01:44.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:45. > :01:47.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that
:01:48. > :01:50.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven
:01:51. > :01:56.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,
:01:57. > :01:59.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from
:02:00. > :02:03.where refugees are banned from until further notice.
:02:04. > :02:06.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban
:02:07. > :02:11.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.
:02:12. > :02:15.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out
:02:16. > :02:24.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,
:02:25. > :02:26.as people affected and already in the air were detained
:02:27. > :02:30.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many
:02:31. > :02:36.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked
:02:37. > :02:41.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...
:02:42. > :02:43.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'
:02:44. > :02:49.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy
:02:50. > :02:52.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number
:02:53. > :02:55.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.
:02:56. > :03:09.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:
:03:10. > :03:12.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why
:03:13. > :03:14.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's
:03:15. > :03:20.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip
:03:21. > :03:25.She wants to see the evidence, she wants
:03:26. > :03:29.to understand precisely what the implications are.
:03:30. > :03:32.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with
:03:33. > :03:36.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and
:03:37. > :03:39.understand it, and then will respond to that.
:03:40. > :03:42.I think there are times where, you know, there's always
:03:43. > :03:45.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.
:03:46. > :03:48.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it
:03:49. > :03:51.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative
:03:52. > :04:03.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more
:04:04. > :04:12.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David
:04:13. > :04:15.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an
:04:16. > :04:19.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I
:04:20. > :04:26.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects
:04:27. > :04:30.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it
:04:31. > :04:37.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with
:04:38. > :04:41.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but
:04:42. > :04:45.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism
:04:46. > :04:51.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in
:04:52. > :04:54.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street
:04:55. > :04:57.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have
:04:58. > :05:01.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of
:05:02. > :05:06.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,
:05:07. > :05:09.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I
:05:10. > :05:13.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the
:05:14. > :05:19.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address
:05:20. > :05:22.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the
:05:23. > :05:30.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you
:05:31. > :05:33.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is
:05:34. > :05:37.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she
:05:38. > :05:40.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would
:05:41. > :05:43.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald
:05:44. > :05:46.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to
:05:47. > :05:50.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with
:05:51. > :05:54.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would
:05:55. > :05:58.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day
:05:59. > :06:04.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority
:06:05. > :06:09.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the
:06:10. > :06:14.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this
:06:15. > :06:19.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is
:06:20. > :06:24.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through
:06:25. > :06:27.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.
:06:28. > :06:31.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can
:06:32. > :06:36.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already
:06:37. > :06:41.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach
:06:42. > :06:46.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by
:06:47. > :06:59.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?
:07:00. > :07:04.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by
:07:05. > :07:09.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are
:07:10. > :07:12.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by
:07:13. > :07:16.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only
:07:17. > :07:19.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it
:07:20. > :07:23.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do
:07:24. > :07:30.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is
:07:31. > :07:33.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work
:07:34. > :07:37.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was
:07:38. > :07:40.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our
:07:41. > :07:46.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is
:07:47. > :07:50.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate
:07:51. > :07:54.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,
:07:55. > :07:58.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,
:07:59. > :08:01.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a
:08:02. > :08:08.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of
:08:09. > :08:10.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the
:08:11. > :08:15.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I
:08:16. > :08:20.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have
:08:21. > :08:25.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a
:08:26. > :08:28.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am
:08:29. > :08:31.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege
:08:32. > :08:36.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places
:08:37. > :08:40.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the
:08:41. > :08:50.right place. Thank you for joining us.
:08:51. > :08:56.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald
:08:57. > :09:00.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,
:09:01. > :09:05.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going
:09:06. > :09:11.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on
:09:12. > :09:15.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa
:09:16. > :09:21.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time
:09:22. > :09:26.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.
:09:27. > :09:34.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and
:09:35. > :09:38.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying
:09:39. > :09:42.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing
:09:43. > :09:46.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going
:09:47. > :09:49.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's
:09:50. > :09:54.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It
:09:55. > :09:59.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special
:10:00. > :10:03.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven
:10:04. > :10:08.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.
:10:09. > :10:13.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for
:10:14. > :10:16.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what
:10:17. > :10:22.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why
:10:23. > :10:25.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has
:10:26. > :10:30.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was
:10:31. > :10:36.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real
:10:37. > :10:39.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the
:10:40. > :10:45.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a
:10:46. > :10:50.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day
:10:51. > :10:55.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,
:10:56. > :10:59.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.
:11:00. > :11:03.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in
:11:04. > :11:11.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with
:11:12. > :11:15.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned
:11:16. > :11:20.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not
:11:21. > :11:23.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in
:11:24. > :11:26.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal
:11:27. > :11:36.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It
:11:37. > :11:41.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge
:11:42. > :11:46.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue
:11:47. > :11:52.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree
:11:53. > :11:56.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa
:11:57. > :12:01.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is
:12:02. > :12:07.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is
:12:08. > :12:11.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with
:12:12. > :12:17.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time
:12:18. > :12:21.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee
:12:22. > :12:27.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as
:12:28. > :12:31.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this
:12:32. > :12:35.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she
:12:36. > :12:39.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.
:12:40. > :12:43.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does
:12:44. > :12:48.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her
:12:49. > :12:52.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical
:12:53. > :12:57.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in
:12:58. > :13:01.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.
:13:02. > :13:04.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless
:13:05. > :13:08.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for
:13:09. > :13:12.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't
:13:13. > :13:16.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via
:13:17. > :13:20.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible
:13:21. > :13:24.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than
:13:25. > :13:29.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with
:13:30. > :13:33.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of
:13:34. > :13:36.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is
:13:37. > :13:42.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't
:13:43. > :13:45.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky
:13:46. > :13:49.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first
:13:50. > :13:51.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit
:13:52. > :13:54.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,
:13:55. > :13:56.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States
:13:57. > :13:58.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated
:13:59. > :14:00.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"
:14:01. > :14:03.but might not have intended to be pictured walking
:14:04. > :14:05.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping
:14:06. > :14:09.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade
:14:10. > :14:12.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President
:14:13. > :14:20.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister
:14:21. > :14:24.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries
:14:25. > :14:27.increased their defence spending It's been announced
:14:28. > :14:33.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,
:14:34. > :14:35.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead
:14:36. > :14:40.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as
:14:41. > :14:45.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's
:14:46. > :14:48.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear
:14:49. > :14:50.to Donald Trump her continued
:14:51. > :14:56.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over
:14:57. > :14:58.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer
:14:59. > :15:01.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues
:15:02. > :15:04.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former
:15:05. > :15:20.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's
:15:21. > :15:25.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the
:15:26. > :15:29.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which
:15:30. > :15:33.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He
:15:34. > :15:37.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to
:15:38. > :15:45.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven
:15:46. > :15:51.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if
:15:52. > :15:57.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just
:15:58. > :16:00.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela
:16:01. > :16:06.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,
:16:07. > :16:10.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all
:16:11. > :16:15.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria
:16:16. > :16:20.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in
:16:21. > :16:23.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have
:16:24. > :16:29.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of
:16:30. > :16:34.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of
:16:35. > :16:38.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But
:16:39. > :16:42.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you
:16:43. > :16:46.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing
:16:47. > :16:53.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees
:16:54. > :17:01.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.
:17:02. > :17:05.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those
:17:06. > :17:09.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's
:17:10. > :17:14.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is
:17:15. > :17:17.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this
:17:18. > :17:27.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any
:17:28. > :17:32.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have
:17:33. > :17:36.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have
:17:37. > :17:41.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why
:17:42. > :17:45.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people
:17:46. > :17:48.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into
:17:49. > :17:54.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not
:17:55. > :17:58.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening
:17:59. > :18:03.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with
:18:04. > :18:07.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to
:18:08. > :18:11.America, they then go through biometric screening, database
:18:12. > :18:22.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence
:18:23. > :18:29.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It
:18:30. > :18:33.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we
:18:34. > :18:36.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald
:18:37. > :18:42.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and
:18:43. > :18:46.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned
:18:47. > :18:52.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since
:18:53. > :18:57.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing
:18:58. > :19:01.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not
:19:02. > :19:05.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you
:19:06. > :19:11.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,
:19:12. > :19:14.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in
:19:15. > :19:19.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say
:19:20. > :19:22.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the
:19:23. > :19:26.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made
:19:27. > :19:31.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about
:19:32. > :19:37.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him
:19:38. > :19:42.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you
:19:43. > :19:46.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total
:19:47. > :19:51.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that
:19:52. > :19:55.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be
:19:56. > :20:02.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We
:20:03. > :20:08.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What
:20:09. > :20:14.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa
:20:15. > :20:18.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the
:20:19. > :20:22.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been
:20:23. > :20:27.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who
:20:28. > :20:31.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make
:20:32. > :20:35.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can
:20:36. > :20:39.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister
:20:40. > :20:45.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally
:20:46. > :20:50.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial
:20:51. > :20:54.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building
:20:55. > :20:58.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking
:20:59. > :21:03.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is
:21:04. > :21:08.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke
:21:09. > :21:13.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it
:21:14. > :21:16.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the
:21:17. > :21:20.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I
:21:21. > :21:24.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in
:21:25. > :21:29.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato
:21:30. > :21:35.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there
:21:36. > :21:39.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the
:21:40. > :21:43.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms
:21:44. > :21:51.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good
:21:52. > :21:54.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying
:21:55. > :21:59.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control
:22:00. > :22:03.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good
:22:04. > :22:07.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I
:22:08. > :22:10.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying
:22:11. > :22:17.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have
:22:18. > :22:20.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can
:22:21. > :22:25.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a
:22:26. > :22:28.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French
:22:29. > :22:34.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I
:22:35. > :22:37.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress
:22:38. > :22:43.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.
:22:44. > :22:48.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say
:22:49. > :22:51.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough
:22:52. > :22:58.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a
:22:59. > :23:01.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot
:23:02. > :23:07.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,
:23:08. > :23:11.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,
:23:12. > :23:16.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until
:23:17. > :23:20.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will
:23:21. > :23:24.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and
:23:25. > :23:28.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that
:23:29. > :23:33.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the
:23:34. > :23:36.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you
:23:37. > :23:40.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.
:23:41. > :23:45.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you
:23:46. > :23:50.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any
:23:51. > :23:56.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,
:23:57. > :23:59.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip
:24:00. > :24:04.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,
:24:05. > :24:09.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and
:24:10. > :24:13.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that
:24:14. > :24:16.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen
:24:17. > :24:21.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the
:24:22. > :24:26.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over
:24:27. > :24:31.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition
:24:32. > :24:36.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's
:24:37. > :24:39.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of
:24:40. > :24:46.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to
:24:47. > :24:55.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.
:24:56. > :24:59.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,
:25:00. > :25:03.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always
:25:04. > :25:09.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't
:25:10. > :25:15.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it
:25:16. > :25:19.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and
:25:20. > :25:21.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for
:25:22. > :25:23.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,
:25:24. > :25:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome
:25:36. > :25:36.to Sunday Politics Scotland. The smallest party in
:25:37. > :25:40.the Scottish Parliament could offer the Scottish Government the only
:25:41. > :25:42.chance to pass its Budget. If they can't reach a deal,
:25:43. > :25:46.there could be a snap election. If I do not get what our voters
:25:47. > :25:49.want, then there will be no deal. Also, after the collapse
:25:50. > :25:52.of the Airdrie Savings Bank, we'll ask what next for local
:25:53. > :25:54.banking in Scotland? And we look back at the career
:25:55. > :25:58.of Tam Dalyell, one of Scotland's most respected MPs,
:25:59. > :26:02.who died on Thursday. Well, more talks will be held
:26:03. > :26:05.on the Scottish Budget next week. For now, there are few signs
:26:06. > :26:08.of a compromise deal. Two parties are seen
:26:09. > :26:15.as likely to do a deal, are insisting on tax rises the SNP
:26:16. > :26:37.are not prepared to contemplate. Let me get your reaction to the
:26:38. > :26:45.story of this woman, the passport holding vet from a scroll and, who
:26:46. > :26:50.is stuck in Costa Rica because of dull troubles-macro executive orders
:26:51. > :26:57.on immigration. I think for those who wish hopes that Trump may not be
:26:58. > :27:00.governing in the way he campaigned for Abbey face in the harsh reality
:27:01. > :27:05.this morning. This is an individual who is now a threat to anybody and
:27:06. > :27:08.is in fact a compassionate and caring individual who has been
:27:09. > :27:12.prevented from returning home through the United States. She's not
:27:13. > :27:18.alone. There are thousands across the world similar to her and I think
:27:19. > :27:26.it shows what a harsh, cruel leader Donald Trump has become. The
:27:27. > :27:31.Scottish Budget. The SNP need the support of someone, most
:27:32. > :27:36.realistically, you or the Greens to get that Budget through. You close
:27:37. > :27:41.to agreement? We've had some constructive talks recently, but I
:27:42. > :27:48.have to say, the gap is growing wider and it's not looking good for
:27:49. > :28:00.this week. Why'd you say that? Let me explain why. Since last May's
:28:01. > :28:03.elections with a Brexit and it shows Scottish education is slipping
:28:04. > :28:07.further down the international rankings. Without stagnating growth
:28:08. > :28:12.and unemployment has gone up. The child health report came last week
:28:13. > :28:16.and showed that Government action is required, more Government action, to
:28:17. > :28:20.deal with the problems facing our country, so the case we put forward
:28:21. > :28:25.last May which was a modest 1p on income tax to invest in education to
:28:26. > :28:28.get back up to being the best in the world again, actually, I think it is
:28:29. > :28:32.now needed rather than less and that is why I think the gap has grown
:28:33. > :28:36.since the election last year. Butcher would not insist on a rising
:28:37. > :28:43.taxation before you'd agreed to the Budget, would you? What we've put
:28:44. > :28:47.forward as a package, a compromise package, which is less the more we
:28:48. > :28:54.asked for in our manifesto or ?400 million. That was Foyle Cup big
:28:55. > :29:00.ticket items. One for mental health services, roughly ?200 million for
:29:01. > :29:04.that, then another ?160 million for colleges and for schools to get
:29:05. > :29:08.Scottish education back up. Both of those would help the economy,
:29:09. > :29:12.because it would invest in the talents and skills and health of
:29:13. > :29:17.people. That would help as worthy challengers that we face. It is much
:29:18. > :29:21.less than what we'd asked for, but certainly something that we believe
:29:22. > :29:28.the Scottish Government should implement. I want to know about this
:29:29. > :29:32.issue of tax rises. Explain to viewers, there will be two separate
:29:33. > :29:36.votes on tax rises or falls and one on the spending proposals, weren't
:29:37. > :29:40.they? The Greens seem to be digging in their heels and wants tax rises
:29:41. > :29:46.and weren't back the Budget unless they get that. You're not saying
:29:47. > :29:50.that, are you? We are saying that we do believe we need to increase the
:29:51. > :29:57.size of the cake, not just cut up the cake. Began making as a
:29:58. > :30:00.conditional support on a Budget? We've set out what our spending
:30:01. > :30:05.priorities should be and how we believe we should pay for it. If the
:30:06. > :30:09.SNP do not want to increase taxation will have to find a money from
:30:10. > :30:14.somewhere else that we believe would not impact on our priorities, which
:30:15. > :30:22.is to invest in young people and in the economy. Burglar Bill sign up
:30:23. > :30:26.money? If taxes aren't going to go up, then rationally, if you want
:30:27. > :30:33.money spent elsewhere, but can they could to provide that? That's a good
:30:34. > :30:38.question. That is why we set out we should invest a modest penny on
:30:39. > :30:42.income tax. That is why we set out our priority. But if the SNP believe
:30:43. > :30:52.they can get it elsewhere, let them explain it. So far they haven't.
:30:53. > :30:59.Half orgy push this? -- how far should you push this? If the Greens
:31:00. > :31:02.fall, then they have to be another snap election. Would you even
:31:03. > :31:14.countenance that? What would Craig think? Is not looking good. If
:31:15. > :31:17.anything, reaction I'm getting from people on the doorsteps and people
:31:18. > :31:21.contacting me through e-mail and other means, they are saying, yes,
:31:22. > :31:27.we should an election, because we like to get it through the SNP
:31:28. > :31:34.Government. -- get bored of the SNP Government. There may be people out
:31:35. > :31:38.there saying that, I'm not fearful of an election but I don't want one
:31:39. > :31:41.because I do not think he would be in the interest of the country was
:31:42. > :31:47.trying to deal with Brexit and also many other issues around the economy
:31:48. > :31:52.and education. I don't want war. But people do not seem to feel honoured.
:31:53. > :31:55.If you don't get what you want and there is room for negotiation, if
:31:56. > :31:58.you don't get a substantial amount of what she wants, would you,
:31:59. > :32:03.despite what you said, be prepared to push this so that there was
:32:04. > :32:09.another election? If we don't get what our voters backed us for in
:32:10. > :32:17.May, then I'm afraid we just have to walk away. We have learned and I'm
:32:18. > :32:21.sure you've criticised me before and commented us on having agreed to
:32:22. > :32:24.something we didn't say was a priority in our manifesto, I'm not
:32:25. > :32:29.going to give up too easily on this, I want to make sure our voters get
:32:30. > :32:33.what they wanted last May. I have a duty just as the SNP have a duty to
:32:34. > :32:37.represent their voters. If they don't have a majority and they need
:32:38. > :32:43.our support, they will have to move. How would you reply to people who
:32:44. > :32:50.say, oh, this is brinkmanship. Capitulation is the Lib Dems middle
:32:51. > :32:58.name. Of course he will cave in, he's just saying this for the
:32:59. > :33:01.effect. Just wait and see. We've had constructive and reasonable and
:33:02. > :33:06.measured talks and we've not made enough progress. If I do not get
:33:07. > :33:11.what our voters want, then I'm afraid there will be no deal. I'm
:33:12. > :33:15.not quite sure why you are so against an election. There's an
:33:16. > :33:19.imbalance. Let's say there was an honour and the SNP swept all before
:33:20. > :33:22.it. In terms of another referendum, the situation would be as now,
:33:23. > :33:26.because the Greens have made clear they were by the SNP in the
:33:27. > :33:31.referendum whenever they want one. On the other hand, if the SNP lost
:33:32. > :33:36.seats, the referendum will be off the agenda until at least the 20s. I
:33:37. > :33:41.would offer you might be keen the idea of another election? Don't get
:33:42. > :33:50.me wrong, I love elections. Even as a Lib Dem?! Oh, I absolutely love
:33:51. > :33:54.them! I don't know if you could tell from last May's elections, but I
:33:55. > :34:01.love the campaign that we were running. That was a Freudian slip.
:34:02. > :34:07.Go on anyway. No, we enjoy campaigns. And if you look at what
:34:08. > :34:15.we managed to do... But the point I was making was the prize for you and
:34:16. > :34:18.Labour and the Conservatives of another Scottish election way to
:34:19. > :34:23.balance is any advantage of not having one. Because you could be
:34:24. > :34:27.potentially the idea of another independence referendum off the
:34:28. > :34:35.agenda indefinitely. That's possible. But the real challenge
:34:36. > :34:37.we've got is an audience with the education challenges and Brexit and
:34:38. > :34:42.it wouldn't be right unless we can avoid it to have an election. I
:34:43. > :34:47.think it is important to do with the big challenges the country faces and
:34:48. > :34:52.that's why we want the SNP to be more reasonable than they've been so
:34:53. > :34:56.far. Message to them is we were pushing toward an election unless
:34:57. > :35:00.you give us a substantial amount of what we want? Yes. Willie Rennie,
:35:01. > :35:01.thank you. We've learned in the past couple
:35:02. > :35:04.of weeks that Scotland's last independant bank,
:35:05. > :35:05.the Airdrie Savings Bank Its headquarters and two
:35:06. > :35:08.remaining branches in Bellshill and
:35:09. > :35:10.Coatbridge are to shut. That's despite the bank insisting
:35:11. > :35:12.it is financially strong. It's thought pressure from customers
:35:13. > :35:14.for more complex services, and the demands of regulators used
:35:15. > :35:17.to dealing with much bigger But the news has lead
:35:18. > :35:23.to renewed calls for new, So, what do you think
:35:24. > :35:40.of the prospect of council banks? The Reverend Henry Duncan plays
:35:41. > :35:47.important, if unexpected part in our story. It was dramatised last year
:35:48. > :35:58.in the parish where he served. 1810, I opened the bank. The first savings
:35:59. > :36:04.bank in the world. It was a local bank, for local people. I've got one
:36:05. > :36:08.shilling and 3/2 pennies. Is that enough to open an account? Of
:36:09. > :36:14.course, but you'll have deposit regular. His motivation was to help
:36:15. > :36:19.people to help themselves. Banking is only something for the rich. You
:36:20. > :36:24.had to have a certain amount to be able to make your initial deposit
:36:25. > :36:27.and it was really out with means of ordinary working folk. That was back
:36:28. > :36:35.in 1810 and it started here in this building. It's a tradition that
:36:36. > :36:37.lasted in Scotland until this month. When the final survivor, the Airdrie
:36:38. > :36:42.Savings Bank announced it would be closing and that prompted a renewed
:36:43. > :36:47.call for new alternatives to high street banks. But why? On both sides
:36:48. > :36:51.in terms of providing to the economy and the funds and loans that small
:36:52. > :36:55.businesses need and meeting the needs of customers, the big banks
:36:56. > :37:00.are not doing what they should. In Scotland, it is becoming
:37:01. > :37:04.increasingly the case that it is a duopoly, whereby RBS and the Bank of
:37:05. > :37:09.Scotland dominate 70% of the Scottish market and there's a lot --
:37:10. > :37:14.not the competition for loans that puts pressure on banks to bring down
:37:15. > :37:19.rates that you need for a healthy, thriving unsustainable financial
:37:20. > :37:25.sector. After the global financial crutch, there was much talk of the
:37:26. > :37:29.need for new, simple, boring banks. But frankly, nothing much has
:37:30. > :37:34.happened. Westminster has really failed in that sense to diversify
:37:35. > :37:38.banking. It said after the crisis of 2008, this was an important part of
:37:39. > :37:42.moving the sector forward and making it more resilient in future crises
:37:43. > :37:46.and it has failed to do that. It means if there another crisis,
:37:47. > :37:54.especially in Scotland, we are very vulnerable to the fact that two
:37:55. > :37:57.banks dominate the majority of the vulnerable to the fact that two
:37:58. > :38:01.sector. But for the past 50 years, there has been an alternative in
:38:02. > :38:03.Scotland. Credit unions. But how can it survive and thrive when the
:38:04. > :38:10.Airdrie Savings Bank was forced to close? We have slightly different
:38:11. > :38:14.regulation from a banking credit unions. That has been part of the
:38:15. > :38:19.advocacy we have made on behalf of credit unions. The Financial Conduct
:38:20. > :38:23.Authority recognise that we are different, structure different, the
:38:24. > :38:26.business model is different, the risks are different. The risk they
:38:27. > :38:30.would pose to the economy if they failed is different from the large
:38:31. > :38:34.banks we've seen in trouble over the last decade. Credit unions have a
:38:35. > :38:37.regulatory framework which is important for consumer protection,
:38:38. > :38:43.but vitally, it is proportionate and we must keep it that way. But a new
:38:44. > :38:48.call for a new network of local banks across Scotland. Set up and
:38:49. > :38:55.run by councils. Though perhaps don't have the skills now to do it,
:38:56. > :38:58.that's where you bring in people. I mean, the Scottish universities are
:38:59. > :39:04.training people in the skills, so we need to bring in an diversify. A lot
:39:05. > :39:07.of people don't trust the council to empty bins. We measured with a watch
:39:08. > :39:16.list them with our mortgages? That's a good point. What should we be
:39:17. > :39:19.looking at is re-engaging people with what local Government could be
:39:20. > :39:27.and how it could change and adapt and be much more useful for people
:39:28. > :39:33.in the local community. Your savings are safe, secure and guaranteed!
:39:34. > :39:34.Council banking. I wonder what the Reverend Henry Duncan would have
:39:35. > :39:36.made of that. Now it's time to look back
:39:37. > :39:39.at the past week and what's coming With me this week are
:39:40. > :39:46.the Investigations editor at the Sunday Herald,
:39:47. > :39:48.Paul Hutcheon, and Lynsey Bews, who's Scottish Political reporter
:39:49. > :40:04.for the Press Association. Just before we talk, a vet living in
:40:05. > :40:06.Glasgow says President Ron's ban has left stranded in Costa Rica.
:40:07. > :40:07.Hamaseh Tayari, who holds an Iranian passport,
:40:08. > :40:10.was due to fly back to the UK, via New York, yesterday,
:40:11. > :40:13.but she said her transit visa had now been revoked.
:40:14. > :40:19.She told us how she was feeling last night.
:40:20. > :40:30.We arrived at 5am I wanted to check in for flights to New York which
:40:31. > :40:36.would take us to Glasgow when I realised the people at the check-in
:40:37. > :40:47.told me it was not allowed. I was not allowed to take the blame
:40:48. > :40:57.because of the new rules. I never expected it to happen to me just
:40:58. > :41:11.coming home. I was really upset. I'm angry and upset. And a little bit
:41:12. > :41:17.afraid. Quite a good example of an expected consequence of that
:41:18. > :41:21.policies can have? Yes. She is clearly very disturbed and very
:41:22. > :41:24.distressed by the circumstances she is facing, as I am sure are a lot of
:41:25. > :41:31.people who are trying to transit through America all who are living
:41:32. > :41:35.there are unsure if they can get back in again. One can Donald
:41:36. > :41:37.Trump's trying to do, but some woman who lives in Scotland who is on
:41:38. > :41:42.holiday in Costa Rica can't come who lives in Scotland who is on
:41:43. > :41:46.home by the boot... Just to bring things up today, she is now
:41:47. > :41:51.apparently travelling back on Tuesday via Madrid. I think money
:41:52. > :41:54.has been raised overnight to pay for the expenses. You could say this is
:41:55. > :41:58.what Trump is trying to achieve. But when you look at what he is doing
:41:59. > :42:04.and the countries he's decided to impose this blanket ban on, what he
:42:05. > :42:08.is trying to achieve is eradicate extreme terrorism in America and
:42:09. > :42:14.abroad doesn't actually make any sense. There was another classic
:42:15. > :42:21.example of unforeseen consequences. On Andrew Marr's show, a
:42:22. > :42:25.Conservative MP said he could not now travel to the United States. He
:42:26. > :42:28.says he hasn't discriminated against now travel to the United States. He
:42:29. > :42:33.in this way since he was a child. One imagines they were not sitting
:42:34. > :42:38.in the White House saying what could we do to ban Tory MPs from coming to
:42:39. > :42:46.the US? That's right. I think you now seen human face behind Donald
:42:47. > :42:51.Trump's policy. By with those who been caught up in this legal
:42:52. > :42:55.nightmare. We don't want to be too despondent, there have been signs of
:42:56. > :42:59.hope in the last few hours, particularly legal judgment handed
:43:00. > :43:04.down by US judge us. I would say that while we've seen the dark side
:43:05. > :43:07.of Donald Trump's character in the last 24 hours, one of the beauties
:43:08. > :43:11.of the US system is that checks and balances are that help individuals
:43:12. > :43:24.against the weight of the state. Baton the week? -- but are they not
:43:25. > :43:29.week? The President can't just do whatever he wants. There is a
:43:30. > :43:34.constitution there. I wonder if this is also him trying to say, look, I
:43:35. > :43:38.was elected to do this and I'm going to do it. With Mexico, OK, they
:43:39. > :43:43.cancelled the president of Mexico's to do it. With Mexico, OK, they
:43:44. > :43:48.visit. The behind-the-scenes, either in the Americans are Mexicans might
:43:49. > :43:52.be prepared to talk. We've seen the series of executive orders being
:43:53. > :43:57.signed off by Trump as it tries to assert his authority as president
:43:58. > :44:04.and make his mark. There are checks within that system, however, I think
:44:05. > :44:07.Willie Rennie in your interview earlier made the point that if
:44:08. > :44:13.people for that was just campaign Trump and it wasn't going to be
:44:14. > :44:19.president Trump, they were wrong. Tam Dalyell died this week. The
:44:20. > :44:24.question is that -- that is always asked is will we see his like again?
:44:25. > :44:26.Is relevant, because he was a thorn in the side of the Establishment,
:44:27. > :44:34.even though he came from the establishment. Most politicians are
:44:35. > :44:39.unremarkable people, faceless drones who take the work and don't really
:44:40. > :44:44.say anything that upsets their own political party. Tam Dalyell, like
:44:45. > :44:51.Margaret Macdonald, was a rare breed. He doggedly pursued his own
:44:52. > :44:59.causes without really taking... Who is left? Dennis Skinner? Outcome is
:45:00. > :45:06.still quite partisan label. Not an independent figure. Tam Dalyell
:45:07. > :45:14.really annoyed successive Labour prime ministers. He pursued his
:45:15. > :45:17.causes and similar issues. I don't see anyone in that mould. Either in
:45:18. > :45:25.the Scottish Parliament or at Westminster to be honest. It is rare
:45:26. > :45:31.to come across like that. Would you agree the loss of Tam Dalyell is the
:45:32. > :45:36.loss of something that he stood for? Yes, he really didn't care and said
:45:37. > :45:38.loss of something that he stood for? Tony Blair was the worst Prime
:45:39. > :45:43.Minister he'd ever see that that was somewhat from his own party. There
:45:44. > :45:46.was never like that at Holyrood and Westminster that springs to mind.
:45:47. > :45:49.You would struggle on the backbenchers to find anyone willing
:45:50. > :45:57.to speak out against the party at Holyrood. Can you imagine is an
:45:58. > :46:07.Nicola Sturgeon was the worst leader? Frankly, no. As in the whip
:46:08. > :46:12.would be withdrawn and he would be out the door. I think political
:46:13. > :46:17.parties low politicians who show up, read out the preprepared lines
:46:18. > :46:22.they've been given. But there was a tolerance of Tam Dalyell, and
:46:23. > :46:25.perhaps that is changing. To be fair to politicians, if there were like
:46:26. > :46:30.that, it would be total chaos. There was a willingness to have a few
:46:31. > :46:35.figures like that. Yes, he became almost untouchable. There would been
:46:36. > :46:43.an outcry, locally, in his party if Labour had tried to him. In that
:46:44. > :46:48.sense, I think he earned his reputation and he will be sadly
:46:49. > :46:57.missed. Scottish Budget? There doesn't seem to be a deal. It is
:46:58. > :47:06.brinkmanship? Yes, I it is. I think it will be signed off. Will be
:47:07. > :47:10.Willie Rennie or Patrick Harvie? Willie Rennie, because he is asking
:47:11. > :47:14.for concessions on spending and not tax. The Greens have said they
:47:15. > :47:21.wanted concessions on tykes and the SNP are not prepared to go there.
:47:22. > :47:32.If you are Willie Rennie, do you want to be seen as the... Is that
:47:33. > :47:36.what you want to be? I have a different view. Speaking to Lib
:47:37. > :47:40.greens today, on face value this is about pounds and pence, there's the
:47:41. > :47:43.Constitution salary lurking in the background. From a Lib Dem
:47:44. > :47:50.perspective, they are worried about being seen as the party that rose to
:47:51. > :47:53.the rescue of a party who second independence referendum. Similarly,
:47:54. > :47:58.with the Greens, they will feel pressure not to bring down a
:47:59. > :48:02.Government that wants a second independence referendum, a view they
:48:03. > :48:07.share. On balance, the Greens are probably more likely to do a deal
:48:08. > :48:12.with the Lib Dems. Bedelia thing they would have to give up the
:48:13. > :48:18.demands on tax? That's where they are seen as less likely at the
:48:19. > :48:21.moment. The current talks between the Greens and the SNP are
:48:22. > :48:29.difficult, but the deal is doable. The sticking point is a income tax.
:48:30. > :48:35.I've heard there's a compromise on the table. Not entirely sure about
:48:36. > :48:45.the details. I think the Greens have moved a little. Yes, no, possible?
:48:46. > :48:46.Anything is possible. That is all from us.
:48:47. > :48:49.I'll be back at the usual time of 11.35 next week.