:00:38. > :00:42.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:43. > :00:44.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:45. > :00:53.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:54. > :00:56.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:57. > :01:02.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:03. > :01:07.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:08. > :01:09.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:10. > :01:15.And on Sunday Politics Scotland, Alex Salmond joins me live -
:01:16. > :01:16.we may mention the word 'referendum'.
:01:17. > :01:20.And, we speak to two farmers on either side of the Brexit divided
:01:21. > :01:30.about their hopes and fears for the future.
:01:31. > :01:33.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:34. > :01:39.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:40. > :01:45.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:46. > :01:48.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:49. > :01:54.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:55. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:02. > :02:03.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:04. > :02:20.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:21. > :02:25.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:26. > :02:28.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:29. > :02:33.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:34. > :02:35.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:36. > :02:38.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:39. > :02:49.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:50. > :02:54.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:55. > :02:57.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:02:58. > :03:02.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:03. > :03:07.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:08. > :03:14.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:15. > :03:23.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:24. > :03:29.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:30. > :03:32.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:33. > :03:36.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:37. > :03:41.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:42. > :03:44.commentary on all the issues that negotiations, workers' rights,
:03:45. > :03:49.immigration, trade policy, everyone maternity leave got a hat tip from
:03:50. > :03:55.him. He would be a very well prepared Brexit minister if
:03:56. > :03:59.attendance needs a colleague -- David Davis needs a colleague. I
:04:00. > :04:02.don't think this story makes his position untenable, what does is the
:04:03. > :04:08.wired pattern of behaviour of excessive candour on his political
:04:09. > :04:16.views, going back years, this is a guy who when the Queen visited
:04:17. > :04:21.Parliament described her as theical lied scope Queen. He had a running
:04:22. > :04:27.argument with David Cameron. We know his views on Brexit, we know his
:04:28. > :04:35.views on Donald Trump. . He has given interviews, none of the views
:04:36. > :04:40.are illegitimate but the candour which they are expressed with is
:04:41. > :04:45.scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a class accuse. He is the Deputy
:04:46. > :04:50.Speaker. And a fairly ready replacement, whether there is more
:04:51. > :04:54.of a movement to say, maybe not force Bercow out but acknowledge he
:04:55. > :04:59.has had a few years in the job and the question of successor ship comes
:05:00. > :05:04.into play. Has he concluded he is untouchable? What I can definitely
:05:05. > :05:08.say, is that he is determined to fight this one out, and not go of
:05:09. > :05:14.his own volition, so if he goes he will have to be forced out. He wants
:05:15. > :05:19.to stay. Which will be tough. It will be tough. Likely as things
:05:20. > :05:22.stand. I would say this, I speak to someone who likes the way he has
:05:23. > :05:27.brought the House of Commons to life, held ministers to account,
:05:28. > :05:30.forced them into explain thing, whenever there is a topical issue
:05:31. > :05:37.you know it will be in the House of Commons. He has changed that. He
:05:38. > :05:42.has. Time has been courageous, Ied a mire the way he has been a speaker.
:05:43. > :05:48.I would say this, during the referendum campaign, he asked me
:05:49. > :05:51.Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to debate Brexit if his constituency.
:05:52. > :05:56.It was a packed out meeting. He chaired it. I said don't you want to
:05:57. > :06:04.join in? He didn't. He showed no desire to join in, he was impartial.
:06:05. > :06:10.He goes out to universities and kind of demyth GCSEs Parliament by
:06:11. > :06:17.speaking to them in a way, he doesn't gets credit for it and stays
:06:18. > :06:22.on after and drinks with them. Sometimes he, you know, it is
:06:23. > :06:25.clearly a mistake to have gone into his views retrospectively on that
:06:26. > :06:28.referendum campaign, I don't think that, did he try and stop Article 50
:06:29. > :06:33.from being triggered in the House of Commons? That would be a scandal.
:06:34. > :06:36.Even that would be beyond him. Briefly, yes or no, could you
:06:37. > :06:42.imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving like that? Not at all. None of the
:06:43. > :06:48.recent speakers I could imagine doing that. It is good he is
:06:49. > :06:52.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:53. > :06:54.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:55. > :06:59.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:00. > :07:00.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:01. > :07:03.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:04. > :07:06.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:07. > :07:11.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:12. > :07:13.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:14. > :07:15.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:16. > :07:21.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:22. > :07:29.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:30. > :07:31.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:32. > :07:40.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:41. > :07:42.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:43. > :07:44.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:45. > :07:48.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:49. > :08:04.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:05. > :08:06.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:07. > :08:08.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:09. > :08:11.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:12. > :08:13.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:14. > :08:15.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:16. > :08:18.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:19. > :08:20.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:21. > :08:22.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:23. > :08:24.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:25. > :08:38.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:39. > :08:40.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:41. > :08:43.He's got a book out next month called
:08:44. > :08:45.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:46. > :08:54.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:55. > :08:57.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:08:58. > :09:02.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:03. > :09:06.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:07. > :09:10.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:11. > :09:15.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:16. > :09:18.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:19. > :09:23.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:24. > :09:29.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:30. > :09:34.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:35. > :09:38.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:39. > :09:42.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:43. > :09:46.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:47. > :09:52.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:53. > :09:59.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:00. > :10:03.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:04. > :10:07.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:08. > :10:11.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:12. > :10:15.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:16. > :10:19.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:20. > :10:25.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:26. > :10:28.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:29. > :10:33.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:34. > :10:38.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:39. > :10:42.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:43. > :10:46.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:47. > :10:52.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:53. > :10:56.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:57. > :10:59.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:00. > :11:03.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:04. > :11:06.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:07. > :11:11.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:12. > :11:18.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:19. > :11:21.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:22. > :11:27.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:28. > :11:31.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:32. > :11:35.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:36. > :11:39.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:40. > :11:46.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:47. > :11:48.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:49. > :11:53.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:54. > :12:00.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:01. > :12:03.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:04. > :12:08.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:09. > :12:13.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:14. > :12:18.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:19. > :12:24.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:25. > :12:28.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:29. > :12:33.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:34. > :12:39.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:40. > :12:43.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:44. > :12:47.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:48. > :12:52.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:53. > :12:57.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:58. > :12:58.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:12:59. > :13:01.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:02. > :13:04.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:05. > :13:06.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:07. > :13:10.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:11. > :13:12.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:13. > :13:14.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:15. > :13:16.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:17. > :13:18.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:19. > :13:26.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:27. > :13:29.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:30. > :13:32.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:33. > :13:35.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:36. > :13:45.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:46. > :13:58.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:13:59. > :14:02.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:03. > :14:06.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:07. > :14:11.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:12. > :14:16.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:17. > :14:24.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:25. > :14:27.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:28. > :14:30.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:31. > :14:37.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:38. > :14:41.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:42. > :14:46.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:47. > :14:49.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:50. > :14:53.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:54. > :15:00.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:01. > :15:04.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:05. > :15:12.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:13. > :15:16.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:17. > :15:22.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:23. > :15:26.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:27. > :15:31.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:32. > :15:35.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:36. > :15:40.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:41. > :15:46.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:47. > :15:50.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:51. > :15:54.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:55. > :15:58.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:15:59. > :16:02.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:03. > :16:07.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:08. > :16:11.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:12. > :16:22.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:23. > :16:27.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:28. > :16:34.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:35. > :16:41.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:42. > :16:46.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:47. > :16:49.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:50. > :16:54.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:55. > :16:58.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:16:59. > :17:02.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:03. > :17:06.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:07. > :17:13.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:14. > :17:19.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:20. > :17:27.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:28. > :17:31.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:32. > :17:36.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:37. > :17:41.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:42. > :17:44.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:45. > :17:50.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:51. > :17:55.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:56. > :17:58.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:17:59. > :18:03.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:04. > :18:06.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:07. > :18:12.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:13. > :18:17.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:18. > :18:21.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:22. > :18:27.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:28. > :18:29.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:30. > :18:33.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:34. > :18:40.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:41. > :18:45.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:46. > :18:50.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:51. > :18:53.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:54. > :18:58.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:18:59. > :19:02.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:03. > :19:08.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:09. > :19:12.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:13. > :19:17.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:18. > :19:21.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:22. > :19:26.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:27. > :19:33.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:34. > :19:37.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:38. > :19:41.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:42. > :19:45.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:46. > :19:51.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:52. > :19:56.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:57. > :19:59.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:00. > :20:04.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:05. > :20:09.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:10. > :20:15.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:16. > :20:18.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:19. > :20:24.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:25. > :20:30.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:31. > :20:35.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:36. > :20:39.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:40. > :20:45.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:46. > :20:48.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:49. > :20:52.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:53. > :20:55.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:56. > :20:59.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:00. > :21:02.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:03. > :21:07.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:08. > :21:13.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:14. > :21:18.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:19. > :21:23.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:24. > :21:27.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:28. > :21:33.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:34. > :21:39.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:40. > :21:43.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:44. > :21:46.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:47. > :21:50.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:51. > :21:54.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:55. > :22:00.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:01. > :22:04.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:05. > :22:08.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:09. > :22:14.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:15. > :22:18.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:19. > :22:22.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:23. > :22:25.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:26. > :22:29.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:30. > :22:33.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:34. > :22:37.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:38. > :22:43.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:44. > :22:46.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:47. > :22:51.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:52. > :22:56.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:57. > :23:00.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:01. > :23:04.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:05. > :23:08.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:09. > :23:12.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:13. > :23:17.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:18. > :23:30.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:31. > :23:34.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:35. > :23:37.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:38. > :23:40.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:41. > :23:43.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:44. > :23:47.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:48. > :23:52.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:53. > :23:57.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:23:58. > :24:03.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:04. > :24:08.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:09. > :24:13.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:14. > :24:16.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:17. > :24:22.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:23. > :24:28.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:29. > :24:30.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:31. > :24:34.again to look at those issues if again to look at those issues if
:24:35. > :24:38.that is what the House of Lords decides. Bit of the House of Commons
:24:39. > :24:42.says we looked, we are sticking with what we voted for, we rejected every
:24:43. > :24:48.amendment by at least 30 votes on all occasions, the Lords then have
:24:49. > :24:51.to buckle, is that what you are saying? Some point I think it is
:24:52. > :24:54.clear the House of Commons have to have its say. I think it is
:24:55. > :25:00.inconceivable that having had a referendum, which was not
:25:01. > :25:03.overwhelming, but it was a clear result, the House of Lords has no
:25:04. > :25:06.intention of sabotaging that but there are things which are not good
:25:07. > :25:12.about the process that we think could be improved. We have not just
:25:13. > :25:16.have the result of the referendum which voted to leave, but we have
:25:17. > :25:23.had the will of the Commons that passed this legislation by a
:25:24. > :25:27.majority of 372. And I am not contesting that for a second! Could
:25:28. > :25:33.you cite a precedent for the upper house amending a bill which passed
:25:34. > :25:36.by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite other things will come to the House
:25:37. > :25:40.of Lords with big majorities from the Commons and quite often the
:25:41. > :25:47.amendments we get, with that then forward and the government sees it
:25:48. > :25:49.could do better. Though not necessarily saying the government
:25:50. > :25:51.has got things wrong, but they could do things better. That happens time
:25:52. > :25:57.and time again and it is not unusual. If you were seen to thwart
:25:58. > :26:02.the referendum result and the vote in the Commons, the elected chamber
:26:03. > :26:07.of parliament, is the threat of abolition hanging over you? I think
:26:08. > :26:11.that is really ridiculous and absolute nonsense. We are not tying
:26:12. > :26:14.to what the decision of the House of Commons, we are trying to do better.
:26:15. > :26:19.It is a bit rich of the government and Oliver Letwin to complain about
:26:20. > :26:24.getting things through in time when the House of Commons spent -- the
:26:25. > :26:28.government spent three months trying to debate this issue. There have
:26:29. > :26:30.been some strong questions put to the government from the House of
:26:31. > :26:34.Lords on all sides. I don't know if the amendments have been passed or
:26:35. > :26:47.not. I think we have a good case for the government to get debate the
:26:48. > :26:50.point. If a traditional MP like Oliver Letwin is calling for the
:26:51. > :26:54.abolition of the hereditary and appointed chamber, and the Labour
:26:55. > :27:00.person like yourself was trying to defend that, that would not be a
:27:01. > :27:03.sustainable position, I would suggest! We saw this with the
:27:04. > :27:05.Strathclyde report as well, this is a government like no other. It is
:27:06. > :27:09.the first Conservative government in history not to have an automatic
:27:10. > :27:15.majority. They do not like challenge or scrutiny. But you get my point,
:27:16. > :27:19.Labour cannot go to the wire in defending and an elected second
:27:20. > :27:23.chamber, can it? Actually, Labour can go to the wire in saying the
:27:24. > :27:26.government does not get it right every time. House of Lords is going
:27:27. > :27:32.to normal processes and people like Oliver Letwin are really getting a
:27:33. > :27:36.little bit over excited, and people who have been anonymously briefing.
:27:37. > :27:43.Who has been anonymously briefing? I don't know, they are anonymous! I
:27:44. > :27:46.understand people want to make amendments, that is the role of the
:27:47. > :27:50.House of Lords, but can I just for the avoidance of doubt, is it still
:27:51. > :27:55.your case that whatever amendments to make, whatever may go back and
:27:56. > :28:01.forward, it is not your intention to stop Article 50 being triggered by
:28:02. > :28:05.the end of March? I have been saying that, exactly that for months and
:28:06. > :28:09.months and months. It is inconceivable that an unelected
:28:10. > :28:11.House will thwart the will of the House of Commons and a referendum on
:28:12. > :28:16.this issue. But that does not mean we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin
:28:17. > :28:21.and others. But the triggering will happen by the end of March? I very
:28:22. > :28:24.much suspect so unless Theresa May has second thoughts, I suspect that
:28:25. > :28:27.will happen. Thank you. Now, just because it's
:28:28. > :28:29.parliamentary recess next week There are two by-elections
:28:30. > :28:33.round the corner - one in Copeland, and another
:28:34. > :28:35.in Stoke-on-Trent Central where the former Shadow
:28:36. > :28:36.Education Secretary, Tristram Hunt, vacated his
:28:37. > :28:39.seat to take up a role as Director of the Victoria
:28:40. > :28:42.Albert Museum in London. But Labour are facing a fight
:28:43. > :28:45.to hold onto the constituency Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has
:28:46. > :28:51.stepped into the ring as their candidate in
:28:52. > :28:53.a by-election bout to see At the last election Ukip
:28:54. > :29:00.came second to Labour here But now they are confident they can
:29:01. > :29:05.land a knockout blow, because this place is packed with
:29:06. > :29:12.people that voted to leave the EU. 70% of people voted to leave
:29:13. > :29:15.the European Union. I'm the only candidate
:29:16. > :29:23.standing in this election who is a true Brexiteer,
:29:24. > :29:25.who has always campaigned to leave the EU and therefore I believe
:29:26. > :29:28.I would be the best person But he has had to fight off
:29:29. > :29:31.allegations he wasn't living in the constituency
:29:32. > :29:34.when he entered the contest. Explain to me what is going
:29:35. > :29:37.on with this issue about your house? Well, we took up the lease
:29:38. > :29:39.the day before nominations. Everything we've done is perfectly
:29:40. > :29:42.legal and within the law. The Labour Party are trying to get
:29:43. > :29:47.off the real issues in this election and focus on something
:29:48. > :29:54.which is banal nonsense. And there's been trouble as well
:29:55. > :30:00.for the Labour contender. He's been labelled a Remoaner
:30:01. > :30:02.after he sent a series of anti-Brexit tweets,
:30:03. > :30:05.filled with words I can't believe I'm about to ask
:30:06. > :30:15.this question in a nursery on a Sunday morning TV programme,
:30:16. > :30:18.but did you really tweet that I tweeted many things about Brexit,
:30:19. > :30:23.that's tweet is out there. It was done quite after
:30:24. > :30:26.the referendum result and it was my way of showing my frustration
:30:27. > :30:29.at the fact that months after the result we hadn't had
:30:30. > :30:34.anything from the government. Theresa May had failed
:30:35. > :30:35.to produce any plan, she had failed to give
:30:36. > :30:37.any meaningful statement about what Brexit meant other
:30:38. > :30:40.than bland statements about Brexit is Brexit, and it's
:30:41. > :30:42.a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit. The context of it was it
:30:43. > :30:47.was out of frustration. So you didn't mean to insult the 70%
:30:48. > :30:50.of the people who live here I never mean to insult
:30:51. > :30:53.anybody and you know, I've made it quite clear,
:30:54. > :30:56.if I'm elected as the member of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent
:30:57. > :30:58.Central, I will absolutely respect the wishes of the people
:30:59. > :31:00.of Stoke Central. I will make sure my vote in
:31:01. > :31:04.parliament is to trigger Article 50. While the Tories' man has done
:31:05. > :31:07.little bit of rebranding too. I voted Remain and I've been open
:31:08. > :31:10.about that, but my top priority is about the economy and to ensure
:31:11. > :31:13.we still have an Theresa May has set out clear
:31:14. > :31:16.proposal to ensure we develop a trade relationship with Europe
:31:17. > :31:26.and make that a success. It means the Lib Dems and the Greens
:31:27. > :31:29.are the ones battling Brexit. Well, when the Lib Dem
:31:30. > :31:31.candidate is actually here. The candidate is a
:31:32. > :31:37.consultant cardiologist. He is actually at work today doing
:31:38. > :31:40.very important heart surgery. He will be back tomorrow, back
:31:41. > :31:43.on the campaign trail working hard. 30% of people voted
:31:44. > :31:47.to Remain and nobody else is representing them, so, you know,
:31:48. > :31:51.it is still a live issue. It is still something
:31:52. > :31:52.people care about. We are only at the start
:31:53. > :31:55.of the Article 50 process We are very a clear
:31:56. > :32:00.that we are standing up for those who want to remain in the single
:32:01. > :32:03.market, who want to protect jobs Labour have taken people for granted
:32:04. > :32:08.in this area for a great many years. Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer
:32:09. > :32:10.to politics is division. I've covered a lot of by-elections
:32:11. > :32:13.where Ukip have come second. We'll find out if they really got
:32:14. > :32:16.Labour on the ropes this And here is a full list
:32:17. > :32:36.of all the candidates standing in the Stoke-on-Trent Central
:32:37. > :32:52.by-election. They do atract lots of candidates.
:32:53. > :33:00.You can get that on the BBC website as well. I was trying to think back,
:33:01. > :33:05.here we have the main opposition party defending two seats in
:33:06. > :33:09.by-elections in the midterm of a government.
:33:10. > :33:15.All the speculation is where the opposition party can hold on, that
:33:16. > :33:21.is unprecedented. I can't give of an equivalent. You wouldn't just expect
:33:22. > :33:27.them to win seats they have held traditionally, you would expect hem
:33:28. > :33:31.to make inroads into seats held by the other party, I wonder if they
:33:32. > :33:36.fail to hold on to just one of these, whether it accelerates the
:33:37. > :33:40.momentum and criticism of the leadership of the moment. I think
:33:41. > :33:45.they are interesting constituencies. Matthew good win was talking about
:33:46. > :33:51.the left win coalition over the years, almost being too broad for
:33:52. > :33:56.its own good, including places like Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big
:33:57. > :34:03.university towns in Manchester, Bristol. Diverse ethnically and
:34:04. > :34:12.included places like Stoke which are more Conservative. With a small c.
:34:13. > :34:17.Less economically well-off, more diverse, can the left hang on to
:34:18. > :34:20.both bits of country. Recent evidence suggests it cannot and the
:34:21. > :34:23.opportunity for Ukip is to pick up the second of those two types of
:34:24. > :34:27.community, the Stokes and the cope lands. That what makes the
:34:28. > :34:31.by-elections interest I would suggest. It is not just about Mr
:34:32. > :34:37.Corbyn's future about which we hear too much, it is about this
:34:38. > :34:41.traditional Labour coalition, can it still survive, particularly in
:34:42. > :34:47.places like Stoke? Europe clearly is a test. I think it's a myth by the
:34:48. > :34:53.way that Labour are only split now, over Europe and it has always been a
:34:54. > :34:59.Tory problem, last time I was on I mentioned it. That is why we had a
:35:00. > :35:04.referendum in 75. That is why they had a round then. But they were in
:35:05. > :35:09.chaos behind the scenes over what they thought about the euro,
:35:10. > :35:14.skillful leadership can paper over the cracks, and to address the wider
:35:15. > :35:16.issue of whether we are now in an era where left right issues have
:35:17. > :35:20.disappeared, and there is more of a era where left right issues have
:35:21. > :35:27.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:28. > :35:31.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:32. > :35:37.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:38. > :35:42.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:43. > :35:46.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:47. > :35:51.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:52. > :35:56.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:57. > :35:57.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:35:58. > :36:01.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:02. > :36:04.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:05. > :36:10.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:11. > :36:14.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:15. > :36:18.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:19. > :36:22.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:23. > :36:28.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:29. > :36:34.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:35. > :36:38.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:39. > :36:42.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:43. > :36:46.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:47. > :36:51.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:52. > :36:54.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:55. > :36:56.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:36:57. > :37:03.are we spending enough, are we That will be a test of what you were
:37:04. > :37:06.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:07. > :37:10.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:11. > :37:14.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:15. > :37:18.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:19. > :37:24.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:25. > :37:30.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:31. > :37:33.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:34. > :37:37.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:38. > :37:41.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:42. > :37:46.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:47. > :37:50.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:51. > :37:51.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:52. > :37:55.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:56. > :38:04.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:05. > :38:06.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:38:07. > :38:11.The former First Minister Alex Salmond will be
:38:12. > :38:23.We hear from farmers about their hopes and fears for Brexit.
:38:24. > :38:29.For every reason to stay I could find another to leave.
:38:30. > :38:33.In the NFL, what is affecting me, right now?
:38:34. > :38:36.says it'll mean opportunities for his members
:38:37. > :38:52.Well, just about everyone now seems to think there will be another
:38:53. > :39:00.We were going to speak to Alex Salmond, but we have a few technical
:39:01. > :39:06.problems will stop and talk about farming.
:39:07. > :39:08.We'll talk to Andrew McCorninck in a few minutes.
:39:09. > :39:11.But first Huw Williams has been to meet a hipster who sells his milk
:39:12. > :39:14.direct to his customers, and a hill farmer who breeds prize
:39:15. > :39:23.They both work hard and love the ground. They are both found a niche
:39:24. > :39:28.market and made the most of it. But there are big differences between
:39:29. > :39:35.them. That is in German is. Does he live up to his name? Heated over the
:39:36. > :39:38.family farm on his father died just over two years ago, the
:39:39. > :39:44.third-generation to farm the land in Ayrshire. But he walked into a
:39:45. > :39:50.perfect storm. The sickly I was so sickened by the fact I was attracted
:39:51. > :39:59.to the family legacy going, the milk price collapsed so badly to
:40:00. > :40:02.generations' work, I said to myself, there is no way I will let anyone
:40:03. > :40:06.dictate the price to me again. I wanted a sustainable future for the
:40:07. > :40:11.farm. I wanted people drinking the milk to know where it came from,
:40:12. > :40:16.basically reinvent the food chain. Reinvent your people and their food
:40:17. > :40:27.comes from and re-engage with farming. That said, good girls. She
:40:28. > :40:32.is first generation farmer working on a rented hill farm in the
:40:33. > :40:39.Galloway hills. With her husband she has built up a prize-winning herd of
:40:40. > :40:42.heritage cattle. These are belted Galloway. They are native here,
:40:43. > :40:48.there are tremendous for hill farming. They are good for
:40:49. > :40:51.conservation land as well. They are also a tourist attraction although
:40:52. > :41:00.this area does not have so many tourists yet. We are a hidden
:41:01. > :41:03.corner. But tremendous meat. In the referendum, Brice voted to leave the
:41:04. > :41:06.European Union, although it was not an easy decision. Every reason I
:41:07. > :41:12.could find to stay I could find another to leave. I took it upon
:41:13. > :41:17.myself to think, what is affecting me now? At the time I was only
:41:18. > :41:21.getting 9.7 p per litre for milk, were losing money and just could not
:41:22. > :41:28.stay farming. I looked at why that was happening. Basically worldwide
:41:29. > :41:33.there was too much milk. In the UK we actually don't produce enough
:41:34. > :41:38.milk in the UK to supply the UK. And I found out that the larger dairy
:41:39. > :41:49.items are sold in supermarkets are not British anymore. But, for
:41:50. > :41:54.example. -- batter for example. Jane voted to remain in the EU. Although
:41:55. > :41:58.there are a lot of rules, we know where we are. My biggest worry is
:41:59. > :42:06.that hill farmers with Brexit will be forgotten about, and there are
:42:07. > :42:09.not many ways you can diversified. We cannot change any more than what
:42:10. > :42:12.we already have. We have to work with what we have got and I'm
:42:13. > :42:18.frightened we will be forgotten about. What about the future? Rice
:42:19. > :42:24.thinks we may have to re-engineer the whole structure of agriculture.
:42:25. > :42:28.In Scotland we are unique. We have crafts, small herds and agriculture
:42:29. > :42:32.systems. Whether we have to change the way subsidies are paid or change
:42:33. > :42:35.the way we farm to become more profitable, and not speaking for
:42:36. > :42:39.every farmer, but I'm pretty sure a large proportion of them would
:42:40. > :42:42.rather have a profitable business that did not depend on subsidies
:42:43. > :42:48.rather than having to rely on it. The latest figure was something like
:42:49. > :42:53.45 present of all European farmers' income a subsidy. I'm sure farmers
:42:54. > :42:56.would rather have a profitable and sustainable business that works with
:42:57. > :43:02.the community and customers rather than depending on hand-outs to keep
:43:03. > :43:06.the business alive. Jane is worried and wants politicians to take
:43:07. > :43:12.farming seriously. Nothing seems to be thought out. Most people were
:43:13. > :43:16.leaving because of immigration, and that took over. For me there was not
:43:17. > :43:23.enough plans put in place to assure us that it was worth leaving, but as
:43:24. > :43:28.it happens we are. I would say they need to listen to the agriculture,
:43:29. > :43:32.because food is a main thing in this country, and if we don't look after
:43:33. > :43:35.it, then we don't know what our market is for buying him. And the
:43:36. > :43:40.strength of the pound and everything. I think we need to
:43:41. > :43:46.seriously realise that agriculture is a big thing for Britain. Whatever
:43:47. > :43:52.we do, we need to get this right. 65,000 jobs, and ?615 million in the
:43:53. > :43:54.Scottish economy depend on agriculture.
:43:55. > :44:00.Shortly before we came on air I spoke to the new President of NFU
:44:01. > :44:12.I'm sure many would agree with the sentiment expressed their that it
:44:13. > :44:15.would be nice to have a farming industry that did not rely on
:44:16. > :44:21.subsidies, but realistically for lots of hill farmers, crofters in
:44:22. > :44:24.the Highlands and Islands, there will have to be subsidies are simply
:44:25. > :44:29.would not be possible to keep them going. The support payment will have
:44:30. > :44:35.to be a big part of it. They are the sectors most endangered with Brexit.
:44:36. > :44:39.This is our issue, we have to be out there and fight for that corner and
:44:40. > :44:43.ensure this does not happen. It is not only the sentiment, there are
:44:44. > :44:47.whole communities that rely on agricultural and crofting activity
:44:48. > :44:51.in these areas. Are you satisfied that you have guarantees are hard
:44:52. > :44:56.commitments from either the British are Scottish Government that an
:44:57. > :45:03.equivalent level of subsidy will stay in place when we are outside
:45:04. > :45:06.the Common Agricultural Policy? This is why these two years, when article
:45:07. > :45:10.50 is triggered, we have to ensure our case is carried forward. And we
:45:11. > :45:15.have a very, very strong case to take forward. We employ 63,000
:45:16. > :45:19.people directly in farming and crofting, but there are 60,000 jobs
:45:20. > :45:24.down the line depending on us. We have to get a strong message. One in
:45:25. > :45:27.eight people in the UK are depending on the food and farming and drinks
:45:28. > :45:34.industry. We have a good message to take, and we will deliver that. But
:45:35. > :45:37.as of now, I want to be clear, you do not know what kind of regime will
:45:38. > :45:42.be in place after Brexit? Nothing definitive. We have been given
:45:43. > :45:49.guarantees of what they call the pillar to payments, one of the five
:45:50. > :45:52.years... Explain what they are. Pillar to other payments you apply
:45:53. > :46:00.for the likes of environmental programmes. They will continue after
:46:01. > :46:03.Brexit? Anyone that are signed up on a long-term agreement will continue
:46:04. > :46:07.payment, but that is only a small part of him, comes to farmers to
:46:08. > :46:10.support payments. On the more positive side, there are
:46:11. > :46:13.opportunities for Scottish farmers positive side, there are
:46:14. > :46:20.in particular, because we don't tend to have the kind of dog crop
:46:21. > :46:25.production -- the bulk production that you have done in England. What
:46:26. > :46:27.are the opportunities? If you look at the Scottish brand, this is
:46:28. > :46:32.something we can sell all over the world. I think we can promote and
:46:33. > :46:36.even more. We are recognised for the quality beef and Lamb. The whole of
:46:37. > :46:42.the sector depends on high-quality cereal industry. You think you could
:46:43. > :46:48.market Scottish beef and make it a niche thing, and Scottish lamb, and
:46:49. > :46:52.the fish farms could market Scottish salmon. Whisky, I'm not so sure.
:46:53. > :46:58.Because whisky production was up does not necessarily mean that helps
:46:59. > :47:04.farmers. It does. Is it mainly coming from Scotland, the Bali? This
:47:05. > :47:11.is one of the opportunities we have to take forward. -- the Bali.
:47:12. > :47:17.Preferably what you would like would be some commitment from the whisky
:47:18. > :47:23.industry to advertise their product as not just Koch whisky but Scotch
:47:24. > :47:27.whisky made from Scottish barley. It would be nice to see... We don't
:47:28. > :47:32.want to hamper or destroy the Scottish whisky industry and anyway,
:47:33. > :47:37.but we certainly believe it should be Scottish product first. If those
:47:38. > :47:41.are opportunities, there are risks. Presumably you would worry about
:47:42. > :47:48.cheap beef imports from countries like the United States. Again, this
:47:49. > :47:54.Scottish brand, we are producing at a far higher standard. Andrea
:47:55. > :47:57.Leadsom did say at this Conservative Party conference that we should not
:47:58. > :48:02.be allowed to be undermined and cheap imports that are not near our
:48:03. > :48:05.standard. This is an opportunity. That's fine, so you sit down with
:48:06. > :48:09.Donald Trump and try to negotiate a trade agreement, and he says, sorry,
:48:10. > :48:13.of course we will sell our beef in Britain. That's one of the
:48:14. > :48:16.challenges we have going forward. If we are selling a product as a far
:48:17. > :48:24.higher standard and quality, reducing it to the standard. But
:48:25. > :48:29.sticking with the issue of beef, and America has hormone treatments for
:48:30. > :48:36.cattle which are not allowed by the European Union, but that is not to
:48:37. > :48:41.say they would not be used by' -- would not be allowed in post-Brexit
:48:42. > :48:44.Britain. I believe we will be doing the majority of trade beyond this
:48:45. > :48:50.with Europe. And part the agreement with Europe will be the vital
:48:51. > :48:52.sanitary controls were talking about, if production is coming in at
:48:53. > :48:57.those standards and is not acceptable in our market. Your beef
:48:58. > :49:01.Bridger and they will have to be not genetically modified or treated if
:49:02. > :49:04.you want to sell it in Europe, but that is not mean that American beef
:49:05. > :49:09.coming in here could not be. I think it should be. We have to make sure
:49:10. > :49:13.we're bringing in an equivalent standard of what we are producing. I
:49:14. > :49:17.would not accept any of my membership to want the competition
:49:18. > :49:22.to come from, that would be an unfair trading practice, and should
:49:23. > :49:28.be things in place to prevent that. We should point out to viewers, they
:49:29. > :49:29.should look very closely, and they can notice that your tyres covered
:49:30. > :49:37.in tractors. Thank you! Well, just about everyone now seems
:49:38. > :49:40.to think there will be another independence referendum,
:49:41. > :49:42.possibly next year, but what exactly would independence
:49:43. > :49:44.campaigners argue for this time? Alex Salmond, the former
:49:45. > :49:46.First Minister, tweeted "Game on" last week when a poll suggested
:49:47. > :50:06.support for independence We will talk about independence in
:50:07. > :50:08.the moment, but first there is another row about John Bercow
:50:09. > :50:10.because of remarks he has made about Brexit. Do you think his position is
:50:11. > :50:29.tenable? Yes, I do. John Bercow has always
:50:30. > :50:38.had a handful of people gunning for him, not just because of remarks he
:50:39. > :50:42.made about Brexit. It is about his modernisation agenda, the fact he
:50:43. > :50:51.lets women and babies into the House of Commons and is taking weeks out.
:50:52. > :50:55.John Bercow, I think, is this significant in the most access in
:50:56. > :50:59.terms of a speaker in history. Certainly the most opportunity the
:51:00. > :51:03.backbenchers. That might be embarrassing for the government but
:51:04. > :51:08.it gives them a commanding support across all parties in the House of
:51:09. > :51:13.Commons. I am right behind John Bercow. I presume from your
:51:14. > :51:19.treating, game on, you would like another referendum. -- tweeting.
:51:20. > :51:30.What would be the most advantageous time to have it? I was in
:51:31. > :51:38.conversation with a Tory minister who asked me who the... There has
:51:39. > :51:43.been less comfortable assumption amongst the government despite the
:51:44. > :51:47.fact that there were 16 out of 17 opinion polls since Brexit which
:51:48. > :51:53.have shown support for independence higher than it was in September 20
:51:54. > :51:59.14th. There was this assumption that the support was under decline. When
:52:00. > :52:03.they saw the poll in the Herald early this week, it had a dramatic
:52:04. > :52:07.effect on matte government minister I was speaking to. He thought
:52:08. > :52:12.everything was in the bag and under control. When do you think there
:52:13. > :52:20.everything was in the bag and under should be one? It is significant
:52:21. > :52:24.because the government is still to respond to Nicola Sturgeon's
:52:25. > :52:29.compromised proposal. That will come over the next few weeks. Once that
:52:30. > :52:34.is done, if they reject it, then we will know there is no interest in
:52:35. > :52:37.the voice of Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon has said there would be
:52:38. > :52:44.another independence referendum very likely. If there is, the likely
:52:45. > :52:52.timescale will be the automatic next year. What would you say to people
:52:53. > :52:56.and there seems to be quite a lot of them, who set even if we are
:52:57. > :53:01.sympathetic to independence, we would rather wait and see what the
:53:02. > :53:06.British government comes up with as a result of the Brexit negotiations.
:53:07. > :53:13.We know what it is we are voting to leave, should we vote, yes. I am
:53:14. > :53:20.guessing there is quite a few people like that where you are speaking to
:53:21. > :53:30.us from now, who were sympathetic to independence but Vote Leave. That is
:53:31. > :53:37.not compatible with what I have been trying to say. There polls that say
:53:38. > :53:47.do you want a referendum right now? Or do you want one after the Brexit
:53:48. > :53:50.negotiations? Some unscrupulous newspapers and on the second
:53:51. > :53:54.percentage. If you are talking about a referendum in 18 months' time, the
:53:55. > :53:59.negotiations will then be crystallised. You will be able to
:54:00. > :54:03.tell what the deal or no Deal will be and certainly that is after the
:54:04. > :54:08.timescale the government was talking about with bringing the deal back to
:54:09. > :54:12.the House of Commons for a vote. I don't see that as incompatible
:54:13. > :54:17.whatsoever. Nicola Sturgeon has been correct in putting forward a
:54:18. > :54:21.compromised proposal and we have to see if the UK Government will pay
:54:22. > :54:24.attention to the interests of Scotland and whether Theresa May
:54:25. > :54:31.will on her commitment of the 15th of July last year. She said she was
:54:32. > :54:36.looking for an agreed UK position back by Scotland on the other
:54:37. > :54:41.devolved administrations. If there is another referendum, what should
:54:42. > :54:46.the SNP argue for? There is some discussion with the party about
:54:47. > :54:50.whether to go for Scotland in Europe or whether to argue for what Nicola
:54:51. > :54:55.Sturgeon is arguing should happen even if we stay in the UK, an
:54:56. > :54:58.independent Scotland should not immediately join the European Union
:54:59. > :55:03.but should be part of the European free trade area. It would be in the
:55:04. > :55:07.single market but not be part of the customs union. You could say there
:55:08. > :55:12.is no question of the border between Scotland and England. Do you think
:55:13. > :55:18.that is what the SNP should argue or should you stick to the leaving the
:55:19. > :55:26.UK and immediately tried to join the European Union? The SNP will
:55:27. > :55:30.continue to argue that Scotland is a member of the European Union. Why
:55:31. > :55:37.shouldn't we? The mainstream media have made fools of themselves by
:55:38. > :55:39.deliberately missing ten -- misinterpreting the European
:55:40. > :55:45.Commission's representative of the UK. As we know from an interview
:55:46. > :55:53.yesterday, it was the opposite of what the mainstream media Andrew
:55:54. > :56:00.Neill was claiming. That will be a strong position that the SNP will
:56:01. > :56:05.argue. In terms of timescale, the key matter, as was enunciated in a
:56:06. > :56:08.compromised proposal, in terms of protecting the Scottish economy and
:56:09. > :56:14.saving Scottish jobs and saving investment, it is for uninterrupted
:56:15. > :56:17.member show of -- membership of the economic area. That can be secured
:56:18. > :56:24.by membership of the European Union but there are other ways to secure
:56:25. > :56:30.it. The SNP's position would be to be a member of the European Union.
:56:31. > :56:36.In the key negotiating, it is the staying within the economic area.
:56:37. > :56:40.That suggests that the key battle ground in terms of economics or any
:56:41. > :56:44.future independence referendum is not going to be as it was the last
:56:45. > :56:49.time like the currency but there will be trade and access to trade
:56:50. > :56:53.and access to markets. That is what the UK Government is jeopardising
:56:54. > :56:57.and what an independent Scotland should secure. To answer a question
:56:58. > :57:03.that you asked at the beginning of that and set, the answer to why
:57:04. > :57:11.perhaps change the position in Europe. We know a lot of yes voters
:57:12. > :57:16.voted to leave the European Union. It is a difficult sell for you to
:57:17. > :57:20.say that you won the Brexit vote even though you were sympathetic to
:57:21. > :57:23.independence. We want you to vote to break up the UK and join the
:57:24. > :57:32.European Union you've just voted to leave. Independent membership of the
:57:33. > :57:37.European Union and Scotland has was been the most popular of the range
:57:38. > :57:42.of constitutional options available to the country. I don't think it is
:57:43. > :57:48.a difficult sell at all. Nicola Sturgeon emphasised as a priority,
:57:49. > :57:52.continuing membership of the European economic area. I saw one of
:57:53. > :57:58.your programmes a few weeks ago when Kevin Pringle made them -- made a
:57:59. > :58:01.point in terms of company of independent Scotland and people who
:58:02. > :58:03.independent -- believe in independence, believe that the
:58:04. > :58:10.highest priority. Therefore should be much more amenable to being
:58:11. > :58:14.galvanised for an independence campaign and people who bought other
:58:15. > :58:19.priorities first. I would be confident that the progress we are
:58:20. > :58:26.seeing in support of independents can continue if the campaign is
:58:27. > :58:35.pitched in the right way. Should there be another yes campaign nor
:58:36. > :58:39.should it run itself? There should be another campaign. There should be
:58:40. > :58:44.cross-party and open to people of no party. There will be some lessons to
:58:45. > :58:48.learn from a first campaign. I don't share the view and you will
:58:49. > :58:56.understand why. We didn't win the vote that we put on 15% that the yes
:58:57. > :59:00.vote Gerry McCann pain. If we put on another 15%, the result will be
:59:01. > :59:04.overwhelming. I don't think we should beat ourselves up about the
:59:05. > :59:08.structure of the campaign. There are some key lessons to learn and no
:59:09. > :59:12.doubt let Nicola Sturgeon will learn them and deploy them if we get into
:59:13. > :59:17.the situation of the second independence referendum. One lesson
:59:18. > :59:20.is you will not argue that keeping the pound no matter how the British
:59:21. > :59:25.government says you are not going to.
:59:26. > :59:32.If you call the second debate, the BBC debate with Alistair Darling,
:59:33. > :59:36.the position I outlined in that was rather more successful than the
:59:37. > :59:40.earlier position. Nicola Sturgeon knows her own mind and should be
:59:41. > :59:45.able to outline the range of currency options open to Scotland.
:59:46. > :59:50.The key argument I see coming in this referendum, in terms of
:59:51. > :59:56.economics, will be what secures Scotland's trains -- trade, our
:59:57. > :00:01.access to markets. Independence has a winning argument, framework. I
:00:02. > :00:08.expect to see it deployed by Nicola a winning argument, framework. I
:00:09. > :00:09.Sturgeon. It looks like you have cut the grass already but maybe do some
:00:10. > :00:16.streaming at the back there. Scottish Labour found itself at odds
:00:17. > :00:17.with the national party this week. In Westminster, in defiance
:00:18. > :00:20.of Jeremy Corbyn's three line whip, the party's only Scottish MP
:00:21. > :00:22.Ian Murray voted against In a symbolic vote at Holyrood
:00:23. > :00:25.the party's MSPs did likewise. Well, I'm joined now
:00:26. > :00:37.by former Labour special Labour's problems. Where do you
:00:38. > :00:47.start? Used with Jeremy Corbyn who was biggest problem. -- you start.
:00:48. > :00:54.Showing the difficulty, you want to be in touch with what public opinion
:00:55. > :00:58.is that you don't need to follow it. They look quite cowardly in what
:00:59. > :01:03.they have done. There should have been more amendments and they should
:01:04. > :01:07.have pushed for a second vote if not a second referendum. They didn't do
:01:08. > :01:14.that. That is a big problem for people like Ian Murray. Jeremy
:01:15. > :01:19.Corbyn causes them huge problems. Do you think Ian Murray is justified in
:01:20. > :01:23.staying outside Jeremy Corbyn's team? If you want to get Labour to
:01:24. > :01:26.get his act together, the fact that they can't have the Secretary of
:01:27. > :01:31.State for Scotland or a shadow Secretary of State was a Scottish
:01:32. > :01:35.MP, looks ridiculous. It would be difficult for it Ian Murray to stick
:01:36. > :01:40.to his principles and join Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a ridiculous
:01:41. > :01:44.position. Jeremy Corbyn is a disaster for the Labour Party. You
:01:45. > :01:50.look at whether polls are. The difficulty you have... A lot of
:01:51. > :01:54.people who support Corbyn would say it is all very well sitting there
:01:55. > :01:58.saying the polls are disastrous for Corbyn but the reason they are
:01:59. > :02:03.disastrous is his own Labour MPs take every opportunity they can to
:02:04. > :02:11.appear in television studios and on the radio saying how rubbish years.
:02:12. > :02:15.Because they are telling the truth. Members voted that Owen Smith and
:02:16. > :02:22.not Jeremy Corbyn to be the leader. He doesn't have any purchase with
:02:23. > :02:26.the Scottish Labour Party membership. It was suggested in this
:02:27. > :02:31.mythical world in which we live in where Scotland is a left-wing
:02:32. > :02:37.country and people respond to Jeremy Corbyn and vote for him. In the last
:02:38. > :02:44.poll I saw in Scotland, we were down to 12%. There is a point where we
:02:45. > :02:49.have to ask the question, is the Labour Party passed the point of no
:02:50. > :02:53.return? On mat, there was a professor of politics talking to
:02:54. > :02:56.Andrew Neil earlier and he was making the point that there is a
:02:57. > :03:06.real problem for the Labour Party now. There is two different
:03:07. > :03:09.constituencies. They are socially conservative and is economic li
:03:10. > :03:16.conservative. It has a metropolitan constituency and university towns.
:03:17. > :03:19.London is quite heavily Labour. Those two constituencies which used
:03:20. > :03:24.to coexist quite happily and vote Labour are now at odds with each
:03:25. > :03:28.other. His point was getting rid of Jeremy Corbyn isn't going to solve
:03:29. > :03:33.the fundamental problem. It won't. There needs to be thinking about how
:03:34. > :03:38.you build that coalition. Every political party if it winds is a
:03:39. > :03:45.coalition. If you look at the SNP, they have a coalition of people. The
:03:46. > :03:49.SNP coalition has a fractured in the way that Labour has. How you don't
:03:50. > :03:56.respond to that is by doing what Jeremy Corbyn has done and pander to
:03:57. > :04:00.one side, the people who voted leave. The difficulty that the
:04:01. > :04:03.Labour Party has come I found this during the referendum, like wind --
:04:04. > :04:09.I find this astonishing that there were Labour voters in traditional
:04:10. > :04:13.Labour heartlands who didn't know where Scotland, where the Labour
:04:14. > :04:16.Party stored on the question of Scottish independence. I think the
:04:17. > :04:22.difficulty is what the Labour Party doesn't do, either in the UK in
:04:23. > :04:28.Scotland, is argue its position. For too long just accepted the support
:04:29. > :04:33.without actually making an argument about why they believed in things
:04:34. > :04:34.like being in the European Union. Will get there. Thank you very much
:04:35. > :04:38.indeed. Scottish education used
:04:39. > :04:40.to be regarded as one Well, it came to terms with no
:04:41. > :04:45.longer being in the top tier some years ago, but is it now
:04:46. > :04:48.going to have to come to terms This week, at First Minister's
:04:49. > :04:51.Questions, opposition parties seized on the latest nail in the Scottish
:04:52. > :04:54.education quality coffin, The Sutton Report -
:04:55. > :05:04.accusing the Scottish Government And Scottish and being left behind
:05:05. > :05:09.in the race for qualifications in future jobs. Scotland used to lead
:05:10. > :05:14.the world in education. Why under this Government are we always
:05:15. > :05:17.playing catch-up? Time and time again I have come here and argued
:05:18. > :05:22.that the SNP are leaving behind the poorest children. This report shows
:05:23. > :05:28.they are also holding back the brightest children. In our education
:05:29. > :05:32.system today we have record high exam passes. We have record numbers
:05:33. > :05:39.of young people going into positive destinations after they leave
:05:40. > :05:43.school, and we also do see signs of positive destinations, for example
:05:44. > :05:44.as is, or access to university, signs of the narrowing attainment
:05:45. > :05:45.gap. I'm joined now by three members
:05:46. > :05:48.of Holyrood's Education Committee. They include, here with me,
:05:49. > :05:50.its convenor the SNP's James Dornan. And in Edinburgh the
:05:51. > :06:04.Conservative's Elizabeth Smith Liz Smith, this Sutton Report was
:06:05. > :06:08.just the latest in a series of statistics reports saying that
:06:09. > :06:13.Scotland is sliding down international tables and is not
:06:14. > :06:17.doing well compared to schools in England. Everyone always says, it is
:06:18. > :06:23.nothing to do with the Curriculum for Excellence. Is that wearing a
:06:24. > :06:27.bit thin? Yes, I think it is wearing very thin. All of us in the
:06:28. > :06:31.education committee have listened carefully to a lot of evidence that
:06:32. > :06:38.has been presented to us in recent years the' -- weeks and months, and
:06:39. > :06:41.I think there is problem with the delivery of the curriculum, but
:06:42. > :06:45.let's be in no doubt, this is a decline that is taking place over a
:06:46. > :06:49.10-year period, and I have to say that the SNP is responsible for some
:06:50. > :06:54.of the problems within that 10-year period, not least of which is
:06:55. > :06:58.turning a blind eye to some of the very strong criticism that has been
:06:59. > :07:04.made by teachers and parents in the system. It is something we have
:07:05. > :07:07.listened to at the education committee, and to be fair to James
:07:08. > :07:13.Dornan, he has been blunt in a way that some of his colleagues in the
:07:14. > :07:17.SNP have not. Are you been blunt? I'm being honest. We are trying to
:07:18. > :07:23.get to the bottom of any issues we have and how we can move forward.
:07:24. > :07:26.The Cabinet Secretary has already said, we have accepted that things
:07:27. > :07:29.have to change. We have taken evidence from teachers. You have
:07:30. > :07:33.been in power for ten years and we have been going backwards. You focus
:07:34. > :07:37.on the attainment gap, but of the whole system is going down about
:07:38. > :07:40.other countries, that is not good. You had the First Minister talking
:07:41. > :07:44.about her results have improved over the last couple of years, but the
:07:45. > :07:47.important thing is we look back and decide we want to criticise
:07:48. > :07:50.everything or say, at least we now know the Government is taking this
:07:51. > :07:54.seriously and is moving forward with this review and will change things.
:07:55. > :08:01.But after ten things, can you point to one thing your Government plans
:08:02. > :08:05.to do that will make any difference? We have just seen that results have
:08:06. > :08:10.improved. We have serious action being taken on the attainment gap.
:08:11. > :08:13.We are devolving education down to the point where it should be, and
:08:14. > :08:18.that is in the schools, so that headteachers can make sure... Very
:08:19. > :08:22.few people would disagree with the idea of giving money to
:08:23. > :08:27.headteachers, maybe some would disagree, giving money to
:08:28. > :08:31.headteachers and saying, but it is not clear how giving them more money
:08:32. > :08:34.and not telling them what to do with it actually helps. By the time that
:08:35. > :08:38.money gets to the teachers there will be a framework within which it
:08:39. > :08:44.can be spent to help to improve attainment. By doing what? There are
:08:45. > :08:48.lots of things that are not just classroom learning can help
:08:49. > :08:51.children, but if it means you can bring in a classroom assistant if
:08:52. > :08:55.you think it is required, or whatever else the school requires,
:08:56. > :09:00.the beauty of it is Igls to the school, and the school then decides
:09:01. > :09:03.for their needs if that works. I see the beauty of that, the problem is
:09:04. > :09:07.that Nicola Sturgeon has staked her first ministership on dosing the
:09:08. > :09:12.attainment gap. While this might be a good idea, there is not
:09:13. > :09:15.necessarily any correlation between handing headteachers money and
:09:16. > :09:19.lowering the attainment gap. It might work, but equally it might
:09:20. > :09:23.not. That is the point of the review. We look to see what is
:09:24. > :09:27.working, we are looking to get feedback on the idea of clusters and
:09:28. > :09:34.making sure schools can work together and share best practice
:09:35. > :09:38.over a small geographic area. Daniel Johnson, what is your answer to this
:09:39. > :09:41.problem? Handing money to headteachers, Mayor may not be a
:09:42. > :09:48.good thing, but does not in itself mean that will reduce the attainment
:09:49. > :09:55.gap. No, and I think James is dancing around the elephant in the
:09:56. > :10:01.room. That is a new one! Years. It is funding. This Sutton Report is
:10:02. > :10:08.interesting, because it shows a clear change in performance around
:10:09. > :10:13.2006, exactly the point where the SNP started cutting funding to local
:10:14. > :10:17.authorities. Let's just take as read that things are not great but I want
:10:18. > :10:21.to focus on what can be done. Labour don't seem to have any proposals of
:10:22. > :10:23.doing anything different. You just keep saying give more money to
:10:24. > :10:27.schools or teachers or local authorities. It is clear that money
:10:28. > :10:31.is not the problem. We spend much more per capita on screwing the
:10:32. > :10:36.media in England, and England have caught up with us and are
:10:37. > :10:42.overtaking. I disagree with you. The reality is we have seen 4000
:10:43. > :10:46.teachers fewer teachers, 1000 fewer support staff, and these are
:10:47. > :10:54.critical resources that make all the difference to attainment and
:10:55. > :10:57.providing good education. We do spend much more than they do in
:10:58. > :11:02.England. I'm not saying what you are mentioning is not the problem, but
:11:03. > :11:05.what is England doing that means their education system appears on
:11:06. > :11:12.all the statistics to be overtaking hours with less money? The key thing
:11:13. > :11:16.is the direction of travel, and when you have declined and stuff like
:11:17. > :11:19.that it is pretty clear that will make it harder and harder for
:11:20. > :11:24.schools to deliver what they need to. But also the education committee
:11:25. > :11:30.has seen some pretty serious and worrying evidence that in terms of
:11:31. > :11:34.the introduction of a number of changes in terms of curriculum and
:11:35. > :11:39.qualifications, there has not been clear decision-making. There has not
:11:40. > :11:42.been an analysis and assessment of impact, and that is worrying. We
:11:43. > :11:49.have a combination of lack of resources and institutional failure.
:11:50. > :11:51.James Dornan was far too polite to point out that Curriculum for
:11:52. > :11:56.Excellence was an invention of the Labour Party. Liz Smith, would it be
:11:57. > :12:02.sensible to scrap the whole thing with that cause yet more disruption?
:12:03. > :12:06.I don't think anybody believes there is anything that is a problem with
:12:07. > :12:09.the principles of the Curriculum for Excellence. The argument is about
:12:10. > :12:14.the delivery, and that has been an utter mess. That is the strong
:12:15. > :12:17.message we have been getting from numerous presentations that have
:12:18. > :12:21.been made to us in the Holyrood committee. It is also a lot of the
:12:22. > :12:24.information that is coming through submissions to the governance
:12:25. > :12:28.review. And I think education agencies in Scotland obviously
:12:29. > :12:33.responsible for the implementation of the curriculum, there is
:12:34. > :12:37.something really wrong with the way this delivery has taken place. The
:12:38. > :12:45.very fact that John Swinney has had to scrap 20,000 pages of guidance,
:12:46. > :12:50.and the very people, may I finish this point? The very people who
:12:51. > :12:52.initiated these were the education agencies. There is something wrong
:12:53. > :13:01.if that system is going to break down. Is that right, James Dornan?
:13:02. > :13:05.There is a problem with the way... There is clearly something wrong
:13:06. > :13:08.when we have had to remove all the paperwork, remove all these
:13:09. > :13:12.different rules, because what seems to have happened is that things have
:13:13. > :13:16.improved on top of existing things instead of an ongoing process to
:13:17. > :13:24.make sure regulation was not needed any more. Can I go back briefly to
:13:25. > :13:28.appoint. Daniel said it is local authorities that are responsible for
:13:29. > :13:32.hiring or firing teachers. We have to leave it there.
:13:33. > :13:40.We're taking a break next Sunday because Parliament's in recess
:13:41. > :13:43.so I'll be back in two Sundays' time.