:00:42. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:48.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:49. > :00:50.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:51. > :00:51.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:52. > :00:53.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:54. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:57. > :00:58.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:00:59. > :01:08.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:09. > :01:14.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:15. > :01:17.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact
:01:18. > :01:19.of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this
:01:20. > :01:25.week, did the US president have the last laugh?
:01:26. > :01:27.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:
:01:28. > :01:28.More from the Scottish Labour conference.
:01:29. > :01:30.And are whole life prison terms needed in Scotland?
:01:31. > :01:39.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:40. > :01:42.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:43. > :01:50.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:51. > :01:54.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:55. > :01:57.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:58. > :02:07.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:08. > :02:12.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:13. > :02:16.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:17. > :02:21.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:22. > :02:26.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:27. > :02:31.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:32. > :02:35.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:36. > :02:39.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:40. > :02:43.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:44. > :02:47.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:48. > :02:53.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:54. > :03:00.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:03:01. > :03:04.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:05. > :03:09.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:10. > :03:13.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:14. > :03:19.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:20. > :03:23.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:24. > :03:28.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:29. > :03:34.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:35. > :03:41.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:42. > :03:46.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:47. > :03:50.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:51. > :03:54.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:55. > :04:00.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:04:01. > :04:05.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:06. > :04:09.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:10. > :04:13.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:14. > :04:19.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:20. > :04:22.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:23. > :04:27.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:28. > :04:30.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:31. > :04:34.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:35. > :04:41.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:42. > :04:44.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:45. > :04:49.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:50. > :04:52.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:53. > :04:56.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:57. > :05:02.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:03. > :05:06.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:07. > :05:13.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:14. > :05:15.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:16. > :05:19.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:20. > :05:25.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:26. > :05:29.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:30. > :05:33.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:34. > :05:37.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:38. > :05:42.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:43. > :05:45.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:46. > :05:46.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:47. > :05:48.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:49. > :05:53.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:54. > :06:01.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:02. > :06:06.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:07. > :06:10.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:11. > :06:13.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:14. > :06:17.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:18. > :06:23.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:24. > :06:26.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:27. > :06:28.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:29. > :06:31.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:32. > :06:34.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:35. > :06:39.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:40. > :06:47.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:48. > :06:50.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:51. > :06:51.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:52. > :06:54.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:55. > :06:57.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:58. > :07:01.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:02. > :07:04.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:05. > :07:12.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:13. > :07:19.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:20. > :07:22.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:23. > :07:28.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:29. > :07:31.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:32. > :07:40.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:41. > :07:43.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:44. > :07:48.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:49. > :07:52.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:53. > :08:04.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:05. > :08:08.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:09. > :08:10.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:11. > :08:22.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:23. > :08:26.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:27. > :08:30.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:31. > :08:34.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:35. > :08:37.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:38. > :08:44.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:45. > :08:47.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:48. > :08:51.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:52. > :08:54.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:55. > :09:03.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:04. > :09:06.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:07. > :09:08.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:09. > :09:13.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:14. > :09:16.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:17. > :09:19.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:20. > :09:24.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:25. > :09:27.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:28. > :09:29.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:30. > :09:36.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:37. > :09:39.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:40. > :09:42.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:43. > :09:47.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:48. > :09:54.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:55. > :09:57.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:58. > :10:03.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:04. > :10:08.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:09. > :10:19.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:20. > :10:22.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:23. > :10:24.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:25. > :10:29.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:30. > :10:31.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:32. > :10:34.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:35. > :10:50.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:51. > :10:53.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:54. > :10:58.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:10:59. > :11:06.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:07. > :11:08.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:09. > :11:12.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:13. > :11:15.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:16. > :11:19.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:20. > :11:26.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:27. > :11:29.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:30. > :11:34.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:35. > :11:38.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:39. > :11:44.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:45. > :11:49.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:50. > :11:55.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:56. > :12:00.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:12:01. > :12:05.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:06. > :12:09.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:10. > :12:13.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:14. > :12:16.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:17. > :12:20.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:21. > :12:23.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:24. > :12:28.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:29. > :12:31.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:32. > :12:38.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:39. > :12:41.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:42. > :12:46.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:47. > :12:50.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:51. > :12:54.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:55. > :13:01.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:02. > :13:07.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:08. > :13:11.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:12. > :13:16.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:17. > :13:22.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:23. > :13:29.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:30. > :13:33.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:34. > :13:36.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:37. > :13:40.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:41. > :13:45.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:46. > :13:49.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:50. > :13:53.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:54. > :13:57.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:58. > :14:02.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:03. > :14:07.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:08. > :14:10.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:11. > :14:16.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:17. > :14:21.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:22. > :14:24.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:25. > :14:30.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:31. > :14:34.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:35. > :14:38.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:39. > :14:41.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:42. > :14:46.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:47. > :14:49.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:50. > :14:53.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:54. > :14:56.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:57. > :15:01.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:02. > :15:09.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:10. > :15:12.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:13. > :15:14.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:15. > :15:17.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:18. > :15:21.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:22. > :15:22.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:23. > :15:32.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:33. > :15:36.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:37. > :15:41.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:42. > :15:44.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:45. > :15:50.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:51. > :15:53.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:54. > :15:58.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:59. > :16:02.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:03. > :16:07.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:08. > :16:30.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:31. > :16:34.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:35. > :16:36.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:37. > :16:38.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:39. > :16:41.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:42. > :16:43.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:44. > :16:45.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:46. > :16:48.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:49. > :16:50.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:51. > :16:53.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:54. > :16:56.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:57. > :17:00.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:17:01. > :17:05.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:06. > :17:09.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:10. > :17:14.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:15. > :17:18.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:19. > :17:24.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:25. > :17:27.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:28. > :17:32.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:33. > :17:47.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:48. > :17:51.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:52. > :17:53.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:54. > :17:56.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:57. > :17:58.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:17:59. > :18:02.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:03. > :18:06.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:07. > :18:14.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:15. > :18:18.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:19. > :18:22.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:23. > :18:28.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:29. > :18:33.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:34. > :18:38.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:39. > :18:42.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:43. > :18:48.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:49. > :18:53.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:54. > :18:56.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:57. > :19:02.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:03. > :19:05.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:06. > :19:10.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:11. > :19:15.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:16. > :19:23.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:24. > :19:27.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:28. > :19:31.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:32. > :19:35.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:36. > :19:39.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:40. > :19:44.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:45. > :19:50.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:51. > :19:56.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:57. > :20:00.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:20:01. > :20:04.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:05. > :20:08.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:09. > :20:12.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:13. > :20:13.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:14. > :20:15.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:16. > :20:17.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:18. > :20:20.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:21. > :20:22.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:23. > :20:32.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:33. > :20:36.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:37. > :20:42.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:43. > :20:47.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:48. > :20:50.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:51. > :20:54.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:55. > :21:00.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:21:01. > :21:06.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:07. > :21:11.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:12. > :21:16.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:17. > :21:21.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:22. > :21:26.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:27. > :21:30.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:31. > :21:35.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:36. > :21:37.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:38. > :21:54.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:55. > :21:56.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:57. > :21:58.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:21:59. > :22:01.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:02. > :22:03.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:04. > :22:07.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:08. > :22:13.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:14. > :22:19.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:20. > :22:26.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:27. > :22:30.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:31. > :22:34.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:35. > :22:40.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:41. > :22:45.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:46. > :22:50.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:51. > :22:54.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:55. > :22:56.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:57. > :23:13.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:14. > :23:15.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:16. > :23:17.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:18. > :23:19.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:20. > :23:22.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:23. > :23:25.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:26. > :23:30.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:31. > :23:34.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:35. > :23:38.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:39. > :23:42.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:43. > :23:45.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:46. > :23:51.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:52. > :23:57.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:58. > :24:03.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:04. > :24:06.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:07. > :24:11.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:12. > :24:15.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:16. > :24:20.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:21. > :24:25.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:26. > :24:33.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:34. > :24:36.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:37. > :24:39.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:40. > :24:43.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:44. > :24:47.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:48. > :24:51.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:52. > :24:55.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:56. > :25:00.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:25:01. > :25:05.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:06. > :25:10.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:11. > :25:14.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:15. > :25:18.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:19. > :25:25.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:26. > :25:31.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:32. > :25:34.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:35. > :25:41.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:42. > :25:46.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:47. > :25:49.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:50. > :25:53.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:54. > :25:59.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:26:00. > :26:02.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:03. > :26:08.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:09. > :26:13.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:14. > :26:16.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:17. > :26:22.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:23. > :26:25.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:26. > :26:30.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:31. > :26:34.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:35. > :26:40.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:41. > :26:43.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:44. > :26:48.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:49. > :26:52.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:53. > :26:59.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:27:00. > :27:04.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:05. > :27:07.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:08. > :27:12.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:13. > :27:17.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:18. > :27:20.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:21. > :27:25.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:26. > :27:30.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:31. > :27:33.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:34. > :27:38.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:39. > :27:43.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:44. > :27:48.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:49. > :27:52.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:53. > :27:57.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:58. > :28:02.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:03. > :28:06.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:07. > :28:11.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:12. > :28:14.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:15. > :28:16.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:17. > :28:17.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:18. > :28:21.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:22. > :28:22.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:23. > :28:31.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:32. > :28:34.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:35. > :28:38.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:39. > :28:40.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:41. > :28:44.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:45. > :28:46.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:47. > :28:49.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:50. > :28:51.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:52. > :29:01.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:02. > :29:04.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:05. > :29:10.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:11. > :29:12.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:13. > :29:20.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:21. > :29:23.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:24. > :29:31.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:32. > :29:34.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:35. > :29:36.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:37. > :29:38.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:39. > :29:44.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:45. > :29:46.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:47. > :29:52.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:53. > :29:55.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:56. > :30:08.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:09. > :30:10.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:11. > :30:26.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:27. > :30:30.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:31. > :30:35.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:36. > :30:39.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:40. > :30:44.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:45. > :30:48.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:49. > :30:52.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:53. > :31:00.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:31:01. > :31:04.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:05. > :31:10.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:11. > :31:15.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:16. > :31:22.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:23. > :31:27.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:28. > :31:31.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:32. > :31:36.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:37. > :31:40.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:41. > :31:46.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:47. > :31:49.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:50. > :31:55.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:56. > :32:01.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:02. > :32:06.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:07. > :32:10.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:11. > :32:14.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:15. > :32:18.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:19. > :32:22.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:23. > :32:27.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:28. > :32:33.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:34. > :32:39.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:40. > :32:44.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:45. > :32:49.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:50. > :32:54.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:55. > :33:02.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:03. > :33:07.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:08. > :33:12.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:13. > :33:15.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:16. > :33:21.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:22. > :33:27.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:28. > :33:31.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:32. > :33:35.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:36. > :33:42.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:43. > :33:47.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:48. > :33:51.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:52. > :33:56.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:57. > :34:00.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:34:01. > :34:05.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:06. > :34:10.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:11. > :34:15.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:16. > :34:20.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:21. > :34:23.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it
:34:24. > :34:30.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.
:34:31. > :34:33.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do
:34:34. > :34:37.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other
:34:38. > :34:41.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you
:34:42. > :34:45.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country
:34:46. > :34:49.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live
:34:50. > :34:56.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start
:34:57. > :35:04.enterprise. Why have you not been good at integrating migrants? The
:35:05. > :35:08.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than
:35:09. > :35:13.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and
:35:14. > :35:18.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have
:35:19. > :35:22.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do
:35:23. > :35:26.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration
:35:27. > :35:31.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated
:35:32. > :35:33.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and
:35:34. > :35:42.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.
:35:43. > :35:48.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes
:35:49. > :35:53.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I
:35:54. > :35:56.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a
:35:57. > :36:01.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad
:36:02. > :36:05.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can
:36:06. > :36:10.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of
:36:11. > :36:17.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.
:36:18. > :36:22.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,
:36:23. > :36:27.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees
:36:28. > :36:32.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for
:36:33. > :36:35.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge
:36:36. > :36:41.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in
:36:42. > :36:45.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt
:36:46. > :36:49.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly
:36:50. > :36:54.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish
:36:55. > :37:05.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo
:37:06. > :37:14.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010
:37:15. > :37:19.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got
:37:20. > :37:25.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are
:37:26. > :37:29.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own
:37:30. > :37:35.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our
:37:36. > :37:39.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to
:37:40. > :37:43.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say
:37:44. > :37:47.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say
:37:48. > :37:52.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.
:37:53. > :37:57.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we
:37:58. > :38:02.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped
:38:03. > :38:07.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That
:38:08. > :38:10.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An
:38:11. > :38:14.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then
:38:15. > :38:19.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is
:38:20. > :38:22.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial
:38:23. > :38:27.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not
:38:28. > :38:34.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to
:38:35. > :38:41.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is
:38:42. > :38:45.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by
:38:46. > :38:51.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right
:38:52. > :38:54.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what
:38:55. > :38:59.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain
:39:00. > :39:02.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background
:39:03. > :39:06.of the people living there but rather because of different
:39:07. > :39:12.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows
:39:13. > :39:15.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish
:39:16. > :39:19.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and
:39:20. > :39:23.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the
:39:24. > :39:27.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual
:39:28. > :39:34.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to
:39:35. > :39:38.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out
:39:39. > :39:44.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum
:39:45. > :39:48.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in
:39:49. > :39:53.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on
:39:54. > :39:57.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do
:39:58. > :40:01.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course
:40:02. > :40:14.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also
:40:15. > :40:17.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for
:40:18. > :40:19.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big
:40:20. > :40:23.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am
:40:24. > :40:24.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.
:40:25. > :40:33.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:34. > :40:35.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:40:36. > :40:39.Scottish Labour promise to work to save the union,
:40:40. > :40:52.And they were here before. In the last government, everything they
:40:53. > :40:56.said was just lies. I think Jeremy Corbyn is a big problem for them and
:40:57. > :40:59.it's very sad that we haven't got a decent opposition.
:41:00. > :41:03.We take a look at whether whole life prison sentences really work.
:41:04. > :41:05.This weekend, delegates from Scottish Labour
:41:06. > :41:08.Its leader Kezia Dugdale's speech was full of promises to work
:41:09. > :41:11.tirelessly in support of the Union if there's a second
:41:12. > :41:14.But it was comments from the London Mayor Sadiq Khan
:41:15. > :41:28.And there is no difference between those who try to divide us on the
:41:29. > :41:32.basis of whether we are English or Scottish and those who try to divide
:41:33. > :41:38.us on the basis of our background, race or religion. Of course, I'm not
:41:39. > :41:43.saying that nationalists are somehow racist or bigoted, but no more than
:41:44. > :41:44.ever, what we don't need is more more division and separation.
:41:45. > :41:46.what we don't need is more more division and separation.
:41:47. > :41:48.The conference also voted to in favour of a
:41:49. > :41:49.People's Constitutional Convention to look
:41:50. > :41:52.at establishing a federal power plan for the UK.
:41:53. > :41:54.In a moment, we'll be speaking to the former
:41:55. > :41:55.leader of Scottish Labour, Ian Gray.
:41:56. > :41:59.But first, Huw Williams has been gauging the mood.
:42:00. > :42:07.A celebration of the nations of world on Perth pot high street this
:42:08. > :42:11.weekend, but the question for Scottish Labour, can he keep the red
:42:12. > :42:16.flag flying here? Especially when things seem to be going so badly for
:42:17. > :42:23.them. In the conference this morning, I think you would have
:42:24. > :42:28.realised that there is a lots of support for policies that are being
:42:29. > :42:34.brought forward and a general expectation that we will fight for
:42:35. > :42:40.these and starred the elections back again. Bigoted very, very difficult
:42:41. > :42:44.period for the Labour Party throughout the United Kingdom. I'm
:42:45. > :42:51.we will come back, we have in the past and I'm sure we will do again.
:42:52. > :42:57.No scientific survey, but a snapshot of opinion from the people we
:42:58. > :43:01.canvassed. I think they are in disarray. I don't know, the left
:43:02. > :43:05.hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time, I
:43:06. > :43:10.think. Is the last government, everything they said was just lies.
:43:11. > :43:14.I think Jeremy Corbyn is a big problem for them and it's very sad
:43:15. > :43:17.that we haven't got a decent opposition. It's much more
:43:18. > :43:23.orientated from England. Their policies are much more orientated
:43:24. > :43:33.around with that of there. The Labour Party... I think those
:43:34. > :43:39.fleeing... I'm not sure what they stand for any more. So what does the
:43:40. > :43:44.Labour Party have to say and do to rebuild trust and win back voters?
:43:45. > :43:49.Connected with the Labour Party if everything went right. Clearly
:43:50. > :43:53.connected with grassroots, the working class of this country and
:43:54. > :43:58.people do the work for our duties, but the NHS, for our teachers. The
:43:59. > :44:01.seven strong and putting our policies which contained a letter to
:44:02. > :44:10.the VIP party of the people want more. Libyans to close the gap
:44:11. > :44:17.between 30 again. SNP have not lived up to their promises, Labour will. -
:44:18. > :44:21.fantastic record for what they have done the last five years, is about
:44:22. > :44:25.the constant austerity. I have to call it that the tide and Tories,
:44:26. > :44:30.from the Scottish national Government. We have held our heads
:44:31. > :44:34.up, kept spending much as we can, particularly for education and
:44:35. > :44:37.social care. Those have been our priorities, but we have also been
:44:38. > :44:43.building Council houses and have just about reached our target for
:44:44. > :44:48.the last five years. People argue that the Labour Party is dying. When
:44:49. > :44:53.I first joined the Labour Party back in 1959, people were saying it then.
:44:54. > :44:59.People will keep claiming that they are dead or dying, but we ourselves
:45:00. > :45:07.here. Labour in power examining external and 15 in beginning, but
:45:08. > :45:10.Jeremy Corbyn will be addressing the conference later today.
:45:11. > :45:13.In the meantime, at the conference in Perth this morning is the former
:45:14. > :45:26.and morning. First of all, Sadiq Khan has dominated a lot of the
:45:27. > :45:29.attention given to a conference. I don't really want to get into a
:45:30. > :45:35.discussion about what exactly is meant by what he said, but who the
:45:36. > :45:39.benefit of hindsight think that the way particularly in the article but
:45:40. > :45:42.the daily record, could have been put in the article but the daily
:45:43. > :45:44.record, could- but it bit more sensibly? Paving the way record,
:45:45. > :45:47.could put a little bit more sensibly? Eventuate have been
:45:48. > :45:54.construed haven't necessarily in that very helpful. He is clear about
:45:55. > :45:58.what he said. But he said was that the politics of nationalism is
:45:59. > :46:02.divisive and they think anybody who has lived through Scottish politics
:46:03. > :46:06.in recent years would have taken that that is the case. And I asked
:46:07. > :46:13.the question is that almost all people pursuing the conference has
:46:14. > :46:18.been working set and the SNP and the response. It made as well have been
:46:19. > :46:25.an SNP conference the publicity it has got and not a Labour conference.
:46:26. > :46:32.Do not agree with that. I have looked through the papers today" a
:46:33. > :46:37.lot of the coverage look at Kezia Dugdale's opinion on a second
:46:38. > :46:40.referendum and the very important announcement that we are seeing an
:46:41. > :46:44.increase on child benefit, which could lose as many as 30,000
:46:45. > :46:50.children out of poverty. That is really important method. And noted
:46:51. > :46:55.that if there is a second referendum that Labour in Scotland will be
:46:56. > :47:03.followed through, 100% in favour of the United Kingdom? Yes. I think
:47:04. > :47:09.Kezia Dugdale mood that as clear as she possibly could yesterday. She
:47:10. > :47:13.said that in Labour Party that she said would never support
:47:14. > :47:19.independence, because it is a fundamental principle that together
:47:20. > :47:23.we are a stronger. The whole campaign to win independent kingdom.
:47:24. > :47:32.There is a second independence referendum, we don't want to see it.
:47:33. > :47:38.What it is doing is costing a great deal of difficulty. Michael
:47:39. > :47:43.Rasztovits and should put that question to rest. She does not have
:47:44. > :47:47.a mandate for a second referendum, so let's stop that and get on with
:47:48. > :47:53.things like improving our schools, health service and losing children
:47:54. > :47:57.out of poverty. Does that mean that if you are thinking of joining a
:47:58. > :48:02.political party and you're in favour of independence, you should not join
:48:03. > :48:06.the Labour Party? People join the Labour Party because they believe
:48:07. > :48:11.and our slogan sums it up that together we are stronger, we can
:48:12. > :48:15.make Scotland but about moving out of poverty, but even on the
:48:16. > :48:19.constitution, who now have a verse on offer moving towards a federal
:48:20. > :48:29.foolish and the United Kingdom as a whole. -- a federal solution.
:48:30. > :48:36.Neither a complete commitment to the state is closed nor the obsession
:48:37. > :48:41.with independence that scene from the SNP. Perhaps the key word used
:48:42. > :48:49.in that answer is no, because until very recently that wasn't your
:48:50. > :48:52.position. Kezia Dugdale was worth and review earlier. In case people
:48:53. > :48:58.are missing her, I thought we would play one of her greatest hits. Here
:48:59. > :49:04.is what she had to say on the actor who gave a year ago. If there is
:49:05. > :49:15.another independence referendum, should Labour independence and PSP
:49:16. > :49:22.fans can pay for it? -- MPs. If they believe that, I'm not going to down
:49:23. > :49:28.debate. So Kezia Dugdale believed they should be free to campaign for
:49:29. > :49:32.it. Kezia Dugdale was answering a question in your go about discipline
:49:33. > :49:35.in the party and whether she was going to expel people are talking
:49:36. > :49:43.about the possibility of independence... I'm not sure that is
:49:44. > :49:47.what I asked her. I asked if you could be a member of the Labour
:49:48. > :49:54.Party and campaign for independence and she said absolutely, yes. I
:49:55. > :50:01.didn't say anything about expelling people buy that. Her position was
:50:02. > :50:05.absolutely crystal clear yesterday that she opposes independence, that
:50:06. > :50:13.the Labour Party opposes independence. They should not be
:50:14. > :50:17.such a referendum. The problem you have got is that given the Scottish
:50:18. > :50:21.Conservatives have got being in favour of the UK pretty much sewn
:50:22. > :50:24.up, why should people who are thinking of supporting Labour
:50:25. > :50:26.believe that what you have just said that Kezia Dugdale's position is
:50:27. > :50:31.absolutely crystal clear? We have that Kezia Dugdale's position is
:50:32. > :50:34.just heard her say year ago that her position was absolutely crystal
:50:35. > :50:44.clear. The only problem is, they are opposite positions.
:50:45. > :50:53.I don't think that is true at all. Across this weekend, she has made
:50:54. > :51:02.the position crystal clear, we have now a unique position between the
:51:03. > :51:04.three major parties on the constitution, which is we are in
:51:05. > :51:09.favour of People's Convention to develop a federal solution for the
:51:10. > :51:17.United Kingdom. I think that is in line with the thinking of a
:51:18. > :51:23.significant majority of Scots who are maybe fed up with this debate
:51:24. > :51:29.being so polarised between the Tory position and the SNP's of session...
:51:30. > :51:38.If there is another referendum and you say to people vote to stick with
:51:39. > :51:42.the United Kingdom, because we are proposing a federal UK, it would be
:51:43. > :51:47.helpful if that was the position of the Labour Party in England and if
:51:48. > :51:52.there was any remote chance of labour actually winning the next
:51:53. > :51:55.general election. It is the position of the UK Labour Party, we saw Tom
:51:56. > :52:09.Watson the deputy leader talking about this. To have a federal
:52:10. > :52:10.England? To look at how it is distributed throughout United
:52:11. > :52:12.Kingdom. Sadiq Khan, talked about distributed throughout United
:52:13. > :52:19.this as well. What is a federal England going to look like? Just a
:52:20. > :52:21.minute, Gordon. In recent months, Kezia Dugdale and Gerry McCann and
:52:22. > :52:37.have worked together to agree to work towards a federal - might
:52:38. > :52:39.people's convention. It it is the business of that people's
:52:40. > :52:45.convention. Part of the problem of this debate is that for 20 years we
:52:46. > :52:49.have carried out this debate solely in Scotland and I do think that
:52:50. > :52:52.there are many people in England who feel that they have been left behind
:52:53. > :53:03.by that devolution debate and that they should have a debate -- C N
:53:04. > :53:12.Howe C and how power is set out in England. Do you think generally
:53:13. > :53:16.Corbyn will win the next general election? I think he can. I am not
:53:17. > :53:18.going to pretend we are not in a difficult position right now and in
:53:19. > :53:21.the polls and in the by-election we saw earlier this week. But a general
:53:22. > :53:29.election is some distance away and I do believe these things can be
:53:30. > :53:31.turned around. . You almost got there at one point. Thank you very
:53:32. > :53:32.much indeed. When should a life
:53:33. > :53:34.sentence mean life? It's a long running debate,
:53:35. > :53:37.but should whole life orders be The issue was raised this week
:53:38. > :53:40.during First Minister's Questions, after the killer of teenager
:53:41. > :53:52.Paige Docherty had One that we have heard several times
:53:53. > :53:55.before from this government, as it stands our judges do not have the
:53:56. > :53:59.tool of a whole life tariff at their disposal and we see that they
:54:00. > :54:03.should. We can sit in this Parliament and we can express
:54:04. > :54:10.outrage every time something like this happens we can do something
:54:11. > :54:16.about it. And I want to do something about it. If the Scottish Government
:54:17. > :54:23.will not act, I can say today that the Scottish Conservatives will push
:54:24. > :54:25.through with the members Bill pushing for a case of whole life
:54:26. > :54:28.sentences in Scotland. We need to stand up for families who see
:54:29. > :54:32.sentences for murder cut after a year they have been handed down and
:54:33. > :54:45.we should change the law so families like page Doherty's feel that the
:54:46. > :54:57.law is going back in their favour. We have waited too long. Isn't it
:54:58. > :55:00.time we all acted? First Minister. I do think it is important that we
:55:01. > :55:02.continue to look at these issues rationally. We have introduced over
:55:03. > :55:05.the course of the period that we have been in government a whole
:55:06. > :55:08.range of reforms to our justice system. I said earlier on that the
:55:09. > :55:10.fall in crime is partly in large part due to the good work over
:55:11. > :55:23.police officers, we are seeing in the increases in rates of conviction
:55:24. > :55:25.in some crimes. Much of that is down to the reforms that have been
:55:26. > :55:28.introduced to our justice system over the period of the last decade.
:55:29. > :55:29.We will continue to look with a novel mind up proposals brought
:55:30. > :55:30.forward for further As you heard there,
:55:31. > :55:32.the Scottish Conservatives say they'll bring a private
:55:33. > :55:34.members Bill, calling for whole-life sentences
:55:35. > :55:35.in the coming weeks. But how do these sentences
:55:36. > :55:37.work and how successful Andrew Coyle is Emeritus Professor
:55:38. > :55:55.of Prison Studies at University First of all, just explain how these
:55:56. > :56:00.orders work. A judge can say at sentencing, can he or she, you will
:56:01. > :56:05.spend the rest of your natural life in prison? Can I answer that by
:56:06. > :56:13.explaining the current situation in Scotland is that anyone who is
:56:14. > :56:25.convicted of murder will receive a life sentence. In addition the judge
:56:26. > :56:31.must define a minimum punishment tariff. That minimum punishment
:56:32. > :56:34.tariff is the minimum time that the person will spend in prison. After
:56:35. > :56:39.that period, however along, the case can be referred to the parole board
:56:40. > :56:42.to decide whether what the next step should be. That process, after the
:56:43. > :56:46.minimum period, can take a very long time and the parole board is very
:56:47. > :56:51.cautious about releasing anyone. There are instances where the parole
:56:52. > :56:54.board regularly refuses conditional release. There are a number of
:56:55. > :56:57.prisoners in Scotland at the moment to have tariffs of over 30 years.
:56:58. > :57:06.There is one case of a prisoner who was sentenced to life in 1987 with a
:57:07. > :57:12.tariff of 15 years. He is still in prison today 30 years later. And the
:57:13. > :57:15.final point to be made is that there is no in law, there is no limit to
:57:16. > :57:23.the tariff which the judge can apply. Several prisoners, as I say,
:57:24. > :57:29.are serving over 30 years of the tariff. The longest tariff imposed
:57:30. > :57:33.in Scotland was on anger thing clear in 2014. A tariff of 37 years. That
:57:34. > :57:39.means that he will be 106 if you live is before his case is even
:57:40. > :57:46.considered. -- Angus Sinclair. In England, what is the difference? The
:57:47. > :57:51.judge can see it as an till the end of your natural life? What happens
:57:52. > :57:58.in David Blunkett's time as Home Secretary was that he introduced a
:57:59. > :58:03.provision where the judge could specifically say, imposed a whole
:58:04. > :58:10.life tariff. Previous to that, the Home Secretary himself, not the
:58:11. > :58:17.judge, the Home Secretary had imposed a number of home tariffs. --
:58:18. > :58:24.live tariffs. Scotland, Peter Tobin, who have whole life sentences. There
:58:25. > :58:31.is no legal prohibition on a judge imposing such a tariff. Other than
:58:32. > :58:36.proportionality, president and consideration of the individual
:58:37. > :58:40.case. There is no question in this particular case that the man
:58:41. > :58:44.concerned will has a 23 year sentence. He has a life sentence and
:58:45. > :58:48.will serve at least 23 years before he is considered and that
:58:49. > :58:54.consideration will run for many, many years. You seem to be saying
:58:55. > :59:01.there is no difference between the system in Scotland and the system in
:59:02. > :59:06.England because judges can impose minimum sentences before parole,
:59:07. > :59:14.that are so long, that they equate to whole life sentences in England?
:59:15. > :59:18.Yes. Arguably there was no need for that change in the law to be
:59:19. > :59:21.introduced in England because it hasn't really changed the situation.
:59:22. > :59:31.And at the moment people, the parole board is cautious about reducing,
:59:32. > :59:34.releasing anyone. I will give you the examples of Angus Sinclair who
:59:35. > :59:43.will be considered for release when he is 106. That in effect as a life
:59:44. > :59:47.tariff. Whole live tariffs are not necessarily whole life, are they?
:59:48. > :59:52.There have been some instances, one of the Kray brothers was one, he was
:59:53. > :59:55.let out that he had cancer and he died a few weeks after. But there is
:59:56. > :00:04.a procedure whereby someone can be released. There has always been and
:00:05. > :00:08.continues to be provision. What has been said in exceptional
:00:09. > :00:12.circumstances. The minister in England, the Justice Secretary, can
:00:13. > :00:16.order the release of someone in exceptional circumstances and are
:00:17. > :00:21.very obvious example, you gave the example of Ronnie Kray, he was
:00:22. > :00:24.released because he was approaching the point of death. So that
:00:25. > :00:29.provision remains there. And also when a person is released, that
:00:30. > :00:36.person remains on close supervision on the rest of his or her life. That
:00:37. > :00:40.is what the life sentence means. Andrew Coyle, thank you very much
:00:41. > :00:41.indeed for joining us. Well, let's discuss this
:00:42. > :00:43.with two members of In our Inverness studio
:00:44. > :00:47.is the Scottish Conservatives Justice Spokesperson Douglas Ross
:00:48. > :00:56.and Stewart Stevenson from the SNP Douglas Ross, many people would
:00:57. > :01:01.understand you wanting to advocate whole life tariffs. But you heard
:01:02. > :01:03.Andrew Coyle there's saying that in Scotland despite the technical
:01:04. > :01:07.differences, that amounts to the same thing as the system in England.
:01:08. > :01:12.In that sense there is no need to change. I would disagree with that.
:01:13. > :01:18.I know he gave the example of Angus Sinclair. But there are other
:01:19. > :01:22.examples where people are given life sentences for despicable murders who
:01:23. > :01:34.go on to be released. And he also mentioned in his remarks, it is up
:01:35. > :01:37.to the parole board. What we want to do to the worst criminals in
:01:38. > :01:45.Scotland is to give the judges the opportunity to set sentencing and
:01:46. > :01:46.see you will not be released and that will give convert to the
:01:47. > :02:04.victims of crime. For those of us who are not lawyers,
:02:05. > :02:07.is the point you are making that in England if you get a whole life
:02:08. > :02:08.tariff, no one apart from the Home Secretary and an exceptional
:02:09. > :02:11.circumflex sizes can come along and say, we will reconsider that. Is
:02:12. > :02:21.that your point? Yes. In England and Wales, section 31 of the 1990
:02:22. > :02:22.sentencing bill allows the Justice Secretary under six action 's
:02:23. > :02:25.circumstances and compassionate grounds to believe someone who has
:02:26. > :02:27.been given a whole life tariff. There are 59 across England and
:02:28. > :02:30.Wales. It is important that element is in there. But it does also allow
:02:31. > :02:38.judges in England and Wales to pass down a sentence that they couldn't
:02:39. > :02:41.have the virgin unity to do. It is giving judges the tools if they wish
:02:42. > :02:48.to use them for the very worst criminals in Scotland. Stewart
:02:49. > :02:50.Stevenson, I do not know what your position is on this. Nicola Sturgeon
:02:51. > :02:52.seemed in part sympathetic to what Douglas Ross was saying when she was
:02:53. > :03:04.speaking at First Minister's Questions. I think we need to be
:03:05. > :03:06.very clear that the real sentence is borne by the relatives and friends
:03:07. > :03:08.of the person who has been murdered. Further in the sentences are matter
:03:09. > :03:10.of considerable importance. The case that Professor Coyle referred to
:03:11. > :03:13.other Angus Sinclair who Lord Matthews sentenced to 37 years of
:03:14. > :03:21.punishment. That will far exceed his life. I think that is a clear
:03:22. > :03:23.message that the Criminal Justice System system is taking seriously.
:03:24. > :03:26.The offences he committed. And that is the message to the family. Judges
:03:27. > :03:29.have the opportunity when they wish to impose a sentence that means
:03:30. > :03:46.someone will never ever be released. What I hear from
:03:47. > :03:49.Russell -- Douglas Ross, he wants to play politicians into sacking guess
:03:50. > :03:56.what judges say. That is a dangerous place to go. With the option of
:03:57. > :03:58.judges passing exemplary sentences that will exceed the span of
:03:59. > :04:01.someone's wife, we have a system that actually works. Judges could
:04:02. > :04:04.have the option that people should stay in jail for the natural life.
:04:05. > :04:10.In what way is that bringing politicians into it? It is giving
:04:11. > :04:12.judges an option, which in Scotland, which they have in England, which in
:04:13. > :04:18.Scotland they do not have. Douglas Ross appeared to make quite clear
:04:19. > :04:21.that he says the role of politicians and reviewing that in the fullness
:04:22. > :04:24.of time. I am not sure that that is where the public would want us to
:04:25. > :04:33.go. I am not sure the system in England is one that we would wish to
:04:34. > :04:50.copy. I have spoken to people on whole life sentences in visits to
:04:51. > :04:53.prisons in France and Wales. The prospect of a for those people was
:04:54. > :04:56.nil. They are following. In Scotland, the Sheriff, the pencil --
:04:57. > :05:02.then sentencing has the option of passing exemplary sentences beyond
:05:03. > :05:05.lie. That sends a strong signal to the people who have suffered a loss
:05:06. > :05:08.through the murder. If it is only a notch and for the judges, the judges
:05:09. > :05:15.are already passing sentences that are more draconian than simple whole
:05:16. > :05:20.life. Why would that be used as a system -- such as Angus Sinclair.
:05:21. > :05:24.Again, what exactly is the advantage of what you're proposing? I think it
:05:25. > :05:32.is interesting that we can only use one example in Scotland Angus
:05:33. > :05:34.Sinclair who took decades to be brought to serve justice. If he was
:05:35. > :05:38.convicted of the crimes when he did the crowds, he would have been given
:05:39. > :05:44.37 years and not a whole life sentence. You have to question, had
:05:45. > :05:46.not been the delay to bring him to justice, should he used as an
:05:47. > :06:01.example? But even at Kuyt change in judges
:06:02. > :06:06.rather than changing the law, surely? Even if they had the option
:06:07. > :06:10.to give Hall life character comedy wouldn't necessarily choose that
:06:11. > :06:16.option any more than they would use the option of giving 37 years to
:06:17. > :06:19.someone. That is an opportunity for the judges to use the powers and
:06:20. > :06:24.they can we do that if they are given to them. That is what I will
:06:25. > :06:33.be doing in my Private member's bill, give judges the opportunity to
:06:34. > :06:37.give Hall life tariffs. It means that Angus Robertson would be 136
:06:38. > :06:43.before he would ever be considered for release. There are a very small
:06:44. > :06:47.number of atrocious calories in this country, who I believe, if judges
:06:48. > :06:52.had the opportunity, they may wish to use a whole life tariff. Judges
:06:53. > :06:57.need to be given the opportunity to do their job. Presumably you would
:06:58. > :07:03.be against such a change in the law, but would you be in favour of some
:07:04. > :07:07.measures being taken to encourage judges to give some more of these
:07:08. > :07:12.exemplary tariffs than is happening at the moment? Just a mind people,
:07:13. > :07:18.the controversy this week was because someone who was a murderer
:07:19. > :07:25.has his sentence reduced from 27 to 22 years. Think we have to bear in
:07:26. > :07:29.mind that the Appeal Court could always set aside a whole life
:07:30. > :07:33.sentence in any event. It is a false thing to consider the role of the
:07:34. > :07:40.Appeal Court in looking at a particular sentence imposed. The
:07:41. > :07:43.bottom line is, families are entitled to see exemplary sentences
:07:44. > :07:50.passed. I do hope that in the criminal justice of eight feet entry
:07:51. > :07:55.justice spokesperson was right careful to say that we must leave
:07:56. > :08:00.this issue of sentencing to judges. They are the masters of the issues
:08:01. > :08:05.that surround a particular case. It is our peril that we make
:08:06. > :08:07.politicians decide. Are going to have to leave it there. Thank you
:08:08. > :08:08.both very much indeed. Now, a look back at the week gone
:08:09. > :08:11.by and the next seven days This week, the week ahead is from
:08:12. > :08:31.the Scottish Labour conference. Let's go back to the Scottish Labour
:08:32. > :08:34.Conference and joining me from Perth is the Scottish Political Editor
:08:35. > :08:36.of the Herald, Tom Gordon, and the former Labour MP Dame Anne
:08:37. > :08:40.McGuire. We're not just talking about
:08:41. > :08:46.politics this morning, we are talking about formal logic. We have
:08:47. > :08:48.just heard that Kezia Dugdale said that Labour MPs could campaign for
:08:49. > :08:54.independence and saying that Labour is now a solidly against that
:08:55. > :08:59.happening is not a contradiction. Well, there is a of opinion within
:09:00. > :09:04.the broader labour movement. We saw that during the referendum and
:09:05. > :09:07.during a lot of the trade unions referring from taking positions
:09:08. > :09:12.during the referendum, because they didn't want their membership to
:09:13. > :09:16.split of the constitution. It is a broad church. Those who want to
:09:17. > :09:19.prosper in the Labour Party in Scotland will probably have to sign
:09:20. > :09:26.up to the idea that an independence referendum will be opposed whilst
:09:27. > :09:32.Kezia Dugdale is the leader. And McGuire, do you think that Kezia
:09:33. > :09:35.Dugdale in her latest iteration of horror opinion of independence has
:09:36. > :09:40.got it right, that Labour should go back to being solidly
:09:41. > :09:47.anti-Independent? I think she had the right note yesterday announced
:09:48. > :09:52.in her previous comments. Not only did she emphasise our position
:09:53. > :09:55.against a second referendum, but she also highlighted, I think, the next
:09:56. > :09:58.against a second referendum, but she big issue in terms of the
:09:59. > :10:04.Constitution, but in Scotland and the UK. How we manage our
:10:05. > :10:08.constitutional arrangements post revolution. We have what used to be
:10:09. > :10:13.called asymmetrical demolition and the idea of a constitutional
:10:14. > :10:20.convention is actually a way forward to open up a conversation. What do
:10:21. > :10:25.you think from the conference, Tom, if Labour getting anywhere? I think
:10:26. > :10:30.they may be getting somewhere slowly. They have adopted a third
:10:31. > :10:35.way on the Constitution. They need a way out of this bind where they are
:10:36. > :10:38.caught between the SNP and nationalism on one side and the
:10:39. > :10:42.Conservatives and dealers on the other. They have dusted down the old
:10:43. > :10:46.Liberal Democrat idea of federalism. It has not got very fast so far. I
:10:47. > :10:53.think it will be a tough sell to voters. It is a pointed argument to
:10:54. > :10:55.make on the doorstep, especially during the forthcoming election
:10:56. > :11:01.campaign when things will be heated. I think it requires huge by yen from
:11:02. > :11:06.regions of England and so far, we have not seen much appetite for
:11:07. > :11:08.that. It was overwhelmingly rejected when John Prescott put it forward in
:11:09. > :11:12.the north-east. That was 20 years when John Prescott put it forward in
:11:13. > :11:18.ago and we have moved forward since then. To compare it with the
:11:19. > :11:26.Liberals 100 years ago is actually less misrepresenting the current
:11:27. > :11:30.environment in which we are working. There might be an independence
:11:31. > :11:35.referendum next year, I've Labour is going to say to people don't vote in
:11:36. > :11:38.the United Kingdom, because we have this fantastic plan for a federal
:11:39. > :11:44.UK, the obvious reply that people will be, Jeremy Corbyn isn't going
:11:45. > :11:50.to win the next general election, so therefore this is just fantasy
:11:51. > :11:53.politics. No, the arguments against separating Scotland from the vet of
:11:54. > :11:59.the United Kingdom are as valid today as they were two years ago,
:12:00. > :12:05.which is very much plainer subset of our major market, disrupting a
:12:06. > :12:11.single might get in the UK, which has been there for 300 years. There
:12:12. > :12:15.is an integration in terms of all sorts of industries and services, so
:12:16. > :12:21.I actually think the idea and still valid. Tom, it is a problem, isn't
:12:22. > :12:26.it? If you're going to make a runner, you little blue that this
:12:27. > :12:29.just gives Labour a way of talking about constitutional things that
:12:30. > :12:37.they haven't had the last ten years. If was massively popular in England,
:12:38. > :12:41.Labour in Scotland could say, just hang on until 2020, Labour will win
:12:42. > :12:45.the election and we will have a federal UK. Very few people even in
:12:46. > :12:49.the Labour Party seem to think that Labour will open in 2020 and in
:12:50. > :12:54.addition to that, it is far from clear that Labour in England have
:12:55. > :12:58.bought into the idea of federalism. Exactly. There are a big long-term
:12:59. > :13:05.problems with this idea. Kezia Dugdale has a valid point on one
:13:06. > :13:08.level that there will be repatriated of powers after Brexit. We had to
:13:09. > :13:12.decide how those powers of the distributed around the United
:13:13. > :13:18.Kingdom. People looking at John Cobb and not the future Prime Minister in
:13:19. > :13:24.waiting. If this plan is to be executed, it requires a more
:13:25. > :13:29.successful Labour opposition. A conflict getting a lot of traction
:13:30. > :13:34.until they become a credible electoral prospects. Hadn't been
:13:35. > :13:40.convicted of the idea that John Cobb and could win next election? I think
:13:41. > :13:44.we're in an interesting position. But me put it no stronger than that
:13:45. > :13:51.and I do think, like many other Labour Party spokespeople... I think
:13:52. > :13:53.we get the gist of that from the hesitation.