:00:33. > :00:37.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:38. > :00:42.David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,
:00:43. > :00:44.ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process
:00:45. > :00:49.We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.
:00:50. > :00:52.Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise
:00:53. > :01:00.But how should we tax those who work for themselves?
:01:01. > :01:02.And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered
:01:03. > :01:14.We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.
:01:15. > :01:17.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland, Willie Rennie tells us
:01:18. > :01:19.Lib Dems MPs at Westminster will try to block a section
:01:20. > :01:28.30 order for a second independence referendum.
:01:29. > :01:30.And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists
:01:31. > :01:34.who definitely don't deserve a tax break.
:01:35. > :01:35.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer
:01:36. > :01:39.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree
:01:40. > :01:48.abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.
:01:49. > :01:50.BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!
:01:51. > :01:53.So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,
:01:54. > :01:56.perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's
:01:57. > :01:59.Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons
:02:00. > :02:01.getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.
:02:02. > :02:04.Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme
:02:05. > :02:06.earlier this morning and he was asked what happens
:02:07. > :02:16.Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal
:02:17. > :02:21.There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.
:02:22. > :02:24.That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make
:02:25. > :02:32.The British people decided on June the 23rd last year
:02:33. > :02:37.My job, and the job of the government, is to make
:02:38. > :02:47.the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.
:02:48. > :02:55.There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when
:02:56. > :02:58.it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the
:02:59. > :03:00.government means by a meaningful vote.
:03:01. > :03:06.I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right
:03:07. > :03:10.for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I
:03:11. > :03:13.think it would be politically impossible for the government to
:03:14. > :03:17.reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of
:03:18. > :03:19.politics will be completely different by then. I take David
:03:20. > :03:25.Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as
:03:26. > :03:29.being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.
:03:30. > :03:32.Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the
:03:33. > :03:35.three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it
:03:36. > :03:40.is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was
:03:41. > :03:44.floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate
:03:45. > :03:48.than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I
:03:49. > :03:53.would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is
:03:54. > :03:59.still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind
:04:00. > :04:02.of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is
:04:03. > :04:04.the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan
:04:05. > :04:08.for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst
:04:09. > :04:13.case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the
:04:14. > :04:18.EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of
:04:19. > :04:21.the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these
:04:22. > :04:26.countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are
:04:27. > :04:29.not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the
:04:30. > :04:33.EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but
:04:34. > :04:37.the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They
:04:38. > :04:40.have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from
:04:41. > :04:44.Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the
:04:45. > :04:48.government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no
:04:49. > :04:52.deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David
:04:53. > :04:55.Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of
:04:56. > :05:00.the process but there won't be a third option to send the government
:05:01. > :05:05.back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave
:05:06. > :05:09.without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't
:05:10. > :05:14.know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get
:05:15. > :05:19.one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the
:05:20. > :05:24.Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is
:05:25. > :05:28.worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.
:05:29. > :05:36.But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,
:05:37. > :05:40.if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,
:05:41. > :05:43.the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what
:05:44. > :05:48.is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the
:05:49. > :05:55.two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the
:05:56. > :05:59.vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,
:06:00. > :06:05.if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the
:06:06. > :06:09.government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the
:06:10. > :06:12.government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if
:06:13. > :06:18.it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,
:06:19. > :06:22.we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second
:06:23. > :06:25.referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the
:06:26. > :06:28.government. You've got to assume that unless something massively
:06:29. > :06:32.changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel
:06:33. > :06:37.fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the
:06:38. > :06:41.deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...
:06:42. > :06:44.The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no
:06:45. > :06:50.deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not
:06:51. > :06:55.a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any
:06:56. > :06:57.holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.
:06:58. > :07:00.So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.
:07:01. > :07:04.That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared
:07:05. > :07:06.to vote against their government on two key issues.
:07:07. > :07:10.Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European
:07:11. > :07:12.partners within days, but there may be some
:07:13. > :07:14.wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.
:07:15. > :07:18.Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.
:07:19. > :07:20.The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably
:07:21. > :07:29.But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure
:07:30. > :07:33.the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.
:07:34. > :07:36.Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament
:07:37. > :07:41.a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.
:07:42. > :07:45.But remember those numbers, they're important.
:07:46. > :07:49.On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have
:07:50. > :07:51.been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from
:07:52. > :07:56.I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion
:07:57. > :07:59.on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses
:08:00. > :08:03.And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before
:08:04. > :08:10.the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.
:08:11. > :08:16.When the government was criticised for reeling back
:08:17. > :08:19.from when and what it would offer a vote on.
:08:20. > :08:22.The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it
:08:23. > :08:30.And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms
:08:31. > :08:33.of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there
:08:34. > :08:37.The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons
:08:38. > :08:41.Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken
:08:42. > :08:44.the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.
:08:45. > :08:49.But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.
:08:50. > :08:51.Theresa May has a working majority of 17.
:08:52. > :08:55.On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.
:08:56. > :08:58.At least six Labour MPs generally vote with
:08:59. > :09:02.Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party
:09:03. > :09:08.If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,
:09:09. > :09:14.Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be
:09:15. > :09:21.So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?
:09:22. > :09:23.What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?
:09:24. > :09:26.I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested
:09:27. > :09:29.This building is a really important building.
:09:30. > :09:31.It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.
:09:32. > :09:35.And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,
:09:36. > :09:42.But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful
:09:43. > :09:48.vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.
:09:49. > :09:50.It was already said about David Jones.
:09:51. > :09:52.It's slightly unravelled a little bit during
:09:53. > :09:57.I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity
:09:58. > :10:00.through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get
:10:01. > :10:04.We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote
:10:05. > :10:08.One said the situation was sad and depressing.
:10:09. > :10:11.The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't
:10:12. > :10:18.A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility
:10:19. > :10:22.of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.
:10:23. > :10:24.But that its position was unlikely to change.
:10:25. > :10:26.And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not
:10:27. > :10:34.That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time
:10:35. > :10:37.round would look silly if they did, this time.
:10:38. > :10:40.It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds
:10:41. > :10:43.about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,
:10:44. > :10:48.last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.
:10:49. > :10:50.There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.
:10:51. > :10:53.Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory
:10:54. > :10:56.rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.
:10:57. > :10:59.The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact
:11:00. > :11:02.that this is the last chance to have a say on this.
:11:03. > :11:06.If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.
:11:07. > :11:08.Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,
:11:09. > :11:11.it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers
:11:12. > :11:14.have already indicated they won't block it again.
:11:15. > :11:18.It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May
:11:19. > :11:21.would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.
:11:22. > :11:23.Her own deadline was the end of this month.
:11:24. > :11:30.But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.
:11:31. > :11:33.We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.
:11:34. > :11:35.She's previously voted against the government on the question
:11:36. > :11:42.of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.
:11:43. > :11:48.Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that
:11:49. > :11:51.what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful
:11:52. > :11:56.vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote
:11:57. > :11:59.for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade
:12:00. > :12:06.Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he
:12:07. > :12:10.accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't
:12:11. > :12:14.think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is
:12:15. > :12:18.that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the
:12:19. > :12:22.event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that
:12:23. > :12:27.in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It
:12:28. > :12:30.means through your elected representatives, the people of this
:12:31. > :12:35.country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't
:12:36. > :12:38.get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on
:12:39. > :12:43.Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I
:12:44. > :12:49.want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...
:12:50. > :12:54.They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what
:12:55. > :13:00.he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either
:13:01. > :13:06.to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel
:13:07. > :13:11.on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will
:13:12. > :13:14.have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we
:13:15. > :13:18.will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows
:13:19. > :13:22.what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter
:13:23. > :13:25.which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has
:13:26. > :13:32.said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I
:13:33. > :13:36.don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important
:13:37. > :13:39.matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that
:13:40. > :13:43.if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if
:13:44. > :13:50.there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to
:13:51. > :13:52.vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to
:13:53. > :13:58.what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.
:13:59. > :14:01.Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back
:14:02. > :14:05.with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,
:14:06. > :14:09.which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To
:14:10. > :14:13.speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.
:14:14. > :14:17.I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are
:14:18. > :14:25.about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords
:14:26. > :14:27.amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we
:14:28. > :14:30.call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the
:14:31. > :14:32.agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,
:14:33. > :14:36.Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The
:14:37. > :14:42.Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no
:14:43. > :14:46.deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are
:14:47. > :14:50.complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do
:14:51. > :14:55.you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary
:14:56. > :14:59.process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment
:15:00. > :15:02.from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament
:15:03. > :15:10.and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in
:15:11. > :15:13.the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into
:15:14. > :15:17.WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There
:15:18. > :15:22.might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the
:15:23. > :15:24.government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask
:15:25. > :15:35.is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is
:15:36. > :15:40.asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately
:15:41. > :15:45.ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we
:15:46. > :15:49.jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country
:15:50. > :15:56.and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did
:15:57. > :16:00.not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to
:16:01. > :16:06.have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the
:16:07. > :16:11.WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about
:16:12. > :16:12.what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens
:16:13. > :16:19.tomorrow. What will you do if you want to find out what happens
:16:20. > :16:24.don't get that assurance? I will either abstain, or I will vote to
:16:25. > :16:28.keep this amendment within the Bill. I will either vote against my
:16:29. > :16:32.government, which I do not do likely, I have never voted against
:16:33. > :16:36.my government until the Chris Leslie clause when the Bill was going
:16:37. > :16:40.through, or I will abstain, which has pretty much the same effect
:16:41. > :16:44.because it comes into the Commons with both amendments so you have
:16:45. > :16:48.positively to vote to take the map. Can you give us an idea of how many
:16:49. > :16:56.like-minded conservative colleagues there are. I genuinely do not know.
:16:57. > :17:01.You must talk to each other. I do not talk to every member of my
:17:02. > :17:09.party. You know people who are like-minded. I do. I am not doing
:17:10. > :17:13.numbers games. I know you want that but I genuinely do not know the
:17:14. > :17:20.figure. I think this is an uncomfortable truth. People have to
:17:21. > :17:23.understand what has happened in our country, two particular newspapers,
:17:24. > :17:27.creating an atmosphere and setting an agenda and I think many people
:17:28. > :17:33.are rather concerned, some frightened, to put their head over
:17:34. > :17:35.the parapet. There are many millions of people who feel totally excluded
:17:36. > :17:40.the parapet. There are many millions from this process. Many of them
:17:41. > :17:43.voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the
:17:44. > :17:44.ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP
:17:45. > :17:57.and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving
:17:58. > :18:01.the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to
:18:02. > :18:05.complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the
:18:06. > :18:09.triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm
:18:10. > :18:14.not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the
:18:15. > :18:17.summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to
:18:18. > :18:21.give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is
:18:22. > :18:26.what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are
:18:27. > :18:31.under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in
:18:32. > :18:35.Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote
:18:36. > :18:39.in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the
:18:40. > :18:43.biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens
:18:44. > :18:49.in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament
:18:50. > :18:53.could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different
:18:54. > :18:56.approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of
:18:57. > :19:02.Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking
:19:03. > :19:06.to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as
:19:07. > :19:10.much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to
:19:11. > :19:14.come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than
:19:15. > :19:22.ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any
:19:23. > :19:25.different from your own? I am delighted there are people now
:19:26. > :19:33.adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like
:19:34. > :19:39.Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning
:19:40. > :19:44.reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every
:19:45. > :19:47.performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a
:19:48. > :19:53.heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I
:19:54. > :20:00.am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You
:20:01. > :20:03.described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated
:20:04. > :20:10.around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain
:20:11. > :20:18.that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we
:20:19. > :20:23.voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30
:20:24. > :20:27.billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I
:20:28. > :20:32.do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce
:20:33. > :20:40.Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing
:20:41. > :20:45.commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are
:20:46. > :20:50.frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to
:20:51. > :20:55.accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We
:20:56. > :20:58.have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share
:20:59. > :21:05.of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a
:21:06. > :21:10.transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the
:21:11. > :21:15.divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at
:21:16. > :21:20.the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.
:21:21. > :21:26.We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of
:21:27. > :21:32.what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked
:21:33. > :21:35.about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an
:21:36. > :21:40.expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the
:21:41. > :21:46.government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in
:21:47. > :21:48.parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general
:21:49. > :21:54.election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the
:21:55. > :21:59.two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot
:22:00. > :22:03.better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of
:22:04. > :22:07.regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what
:22:08. > :22:14.would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the
:22:15. > :22:20.negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports
:22:21. > :22:26.this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to
:22:27. > :22:30.police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the
:22:31. > :22:36.seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in
:22:37. > :22:39.the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not
:22:40. > :22:46.aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the
:22:47. > :22:52.dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to
:22:53. > :22:57.whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this
:22:58. > :23:05.wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place
:23:06. > :23:11.in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it
:23:12. > :23:17.done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence
:23:18. > :23:24.about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no
:23:25. > :23:28.evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been
:23:29. > :23:34.making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and
:23:35. > :23:41.other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to
:23:42. > :23:45.result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be
:23:46. > :23:50.fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You
:23:51. > :23:56.probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your
:23:57. > :23:59.eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post
:24:00. > :24:02.is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like
:24:03. > :24:08.to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication
:24:09. > :24:12.of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what
:24:13. > :24:18.Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process
:24:19. > :24:22.whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a
:24:23. > :24:27.general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.
:24:28. > :24:30.The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other
:24:31. > :24:39.than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be
:24:40. > :24:43.unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would
:24:44. > :24:48.be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,
:24:49. > :24:53.more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60
:24:54. > :24:57.billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the
:24:58. > :25:01.Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for
:25:02. > :25:06.money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be
:25:07. > :25:12.crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as
:25:13. > :25:18.six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from
:25:19. > :25:22.the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six
:25:23. > :25:27.months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and
:25:28. > :25:31.people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told
:25:32. > :25:35.it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is
:25:36. > :25:40.happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the
:25:41. > :25:45.bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that
:25:46. > :25:50.cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year
:25:51. > :25:55.process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my
:25:56. > :26:00.fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by
:26:01. > :26:07.someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.
:26:08. > :26:13.It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date
:26:14. > :26:16.with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common
:26:17. > :26:21.market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed
:26:22. > :26:25.with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining
:26:26. > :26:34.a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an
:26:35. > :26:35.interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather
:26:36. > :26:39.than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first
:26:40. > :26:41.budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes
:26:42. > :26:48.affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared
:26:49. > :26:50.to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase
:26:51. > :26:52.in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see
:26:53. > :27:01.as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay
:27:02. > :27:03.more National Insurance The controversy centres
:27:04. > :27:06.on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make
:27:07. > :27:09.a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages
:27:10. > :27:16.from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one
:27:17. > :27:19.and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year
:27:20. > :27:24.more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,
:27:25. > :27:30.with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every
:27:31. > :27:32.voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto
:27:33. > :27:34.in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip
:27:35. > :27:39.Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget
:27:40. > :27:42."no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May
:27:43. > :27:45.said the government One of the first things I did
:27:46. > :27:51.as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights
:27:52. > :27:55.and protections that were available to self-employed workers
:27:56. > :27:58.and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look
:27:59. > :28:00.at the government paper when we produce it, showing
:28:01. > :28:03.all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will
:28:04. > :28:08.be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others
:28:09. > :28:12.to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned
:28:13. > :28:14.there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing
:28:15. > :28:28.a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided
:28:29. > :28:32.the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not
:28:33. > :28:37.the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your
:28:38. > :28:40.commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we
:28:41. > :28:47.are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of
:28:48. > :28:52.what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the
:28:53. > :28:56.quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and
:28:57. > :28:59.decent and all jobs give people scope for development and
:29:00. > :29:08.fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We
:29:09. > :29:10.will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive
:29:11. > :29:16.particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the
:29:17. > :29:21.general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the
:29:22. > :29:26.self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why
:29:27. > :29:31.are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John
:29:32. > :29:35.McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition
:29:36. > :29:39.parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax
:29:40. > :29:43.rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed
:29:44. > :29:48.people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league
:29:49. > :29:51.rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --
:29:52. > :29:57.economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government
:29:58. > :30:02.is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have
:30:03. > :30:07.not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax
:30:08. > :30:11.base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It
:30:12. > :30:18.is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have
:30:19. > :30:22.said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing
:30:23. > :30:27.politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said
:30:28. > :30:31.this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of
:30:32. > :30:36.you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a
:30:37. > :30:40.Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less
:30:41. > :30:43.tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.
:30:44. > :30:53.I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When
:30:54. > :30:57.people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no
:30:58. > :30:59.real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,
:31:00. > :31:04.they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the
:31:05. > :31:07.politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the
:31:08. > :31:09.turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,
:31:10. > :31:17.women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have
:31:18. > :31:21.the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking
:31:22. > :31:26.self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the
:31:27. > :31:30.tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into
:31:31. > :31:35.it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we
:31:36. > :31:41.know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and
:31:42. > :31:44.flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters
:31:45. > :31:48.enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a
:31:49. > :31:52.third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would
:31:53. > :31:55.like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they
:31:56. > :32:00.don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.
:32:01. > :32:04.And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some
:32:05. > :32:07.people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some
:32:08. > :32:12.people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --
:32:13. > :32:18.self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of
:32:19. > :32:22.tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over
:32:23. > :32:27.?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.
:32:28. > :32:30.If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference
:32:31. > :32:37.between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the
:32:38. > :32:41.employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much
:32:42. > :32:50.as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for
:32:51. > :32:54.the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is
:32:55. > :32:58.that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.
:32:59. > :33:02.We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really
:33:03. > :33:06.matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a
:33:07. > :33:11.self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener
:33:12. > :33:18.who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm
:33:19. > :33:22.side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with
:33:23. > :33:27.technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're
:33:28. > :33:31.taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is
:33:32. > :33:34.part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business
:33:35. > :33:39.models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the
:33:40. > :33:43.fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are
:33:44. > :33:45.tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?
:33:46. > :33:47.Yes. We say goodbye to viewers
:33:48. > :33:59.in Scotland, who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:34:00. > :34:01.to Sunday Politics Scotland. Should there be another
:34:02. > :34:05.independence referendum? Willie Rennie tells us
:34:06. > :34:07.Liberal Democrat MPs at Westminster will vote to stop
:34:08. > :34:15.the Scottish Parliament holding one. Jeremy Corbyn says another
:34:16. > :34:17.referendum is fine, but then Which is just as well,
:34:18. > :34:20.because that's not what his Shadow And we'll be asking the co-convenor
:34:21. > :34:26.of the Scottish Greens held their spring
:34:27. > :34:34.conferences this weekend. Their leader Willie Rennie pledged
:34:35. > :34:38.to fight to keep Scotland in the UK But yesterday the MSP
:34:39. > :34:44.Alex Cole-Hamilton said Lib Dem MPs at Westminster would block a second
:34:45. > :34:48.independence referendum. But is that REALLY
:34:49. > :34:51.Liberal Democrat policy? After all, their former
:34:52. > :34:55.leader Nick Clegg has said there should be no fatwa, as he put
:34:56. > :34:58.it, against another referendum. I spoke to Willie Rennie
:34:59. > :35:10.a little earlier. Yesterday I was talking on the radio
:35:11. > :35:15.to one of your MSPs, Alex Cole-Hamilton, and he said that
:35:16. > :35:22.Liberal Democrats at Westminster would vote against any authorisation
:35:23. > :35:27.for another Scottish independence referendum. Was he just overexcited
:35:28. > :35:31.because of the sheer thrill of your party conference, or is that
:35:32. > :35:36.actually Lib Dem policy? You should have joined us to see the
:35:37. > :35:42.excitement! But no, Alex was right. We stood on a platform when we said
:35:43. > :35:46.we would oppose independence and oppose another referendum. You and
:35:47. > :35:50.others have criticised us for not speaking to our work, we are
:35:51. > :35:58.absolutely going to stick to our world. -- for not sticking to our
:35:59. > :36:03.word. But it's one thing to say you are against having another
:36:04. > :36:08.independence referendum, it is another thing to say you would have
:36:09. > :36:12.the parliament in London block the parliament in Scotland from holding
:36:13. > :36:18.another referendum. You are asking me to go against what I believe. I
:36:19. > :36:22.believe we should not have another referendum because it is divisive.
:36:23. > :36:26.We've got a massive Brexit process that is going to cause economic
:36:27. > :36:31.chaos, and you are asking me to vote for even more chaos on top of that.
:36:32. > :36:37.I believe that we should be getting on with the day job. But hang on a
:36:38. > :36:41.second. I'm sure you don't believe there should be a Conservative
:36:42. > :36:45.Government, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't authorise another
:36:46. > :36:51.General Election. I would vote against the Conservatives at every
:36:52. > :36:55.possible opportunity. But you wouldn't vote against having another
:36:56. > :36:59.General Election on the grounds they might win it. I would vote against
:37:00. > :37:03.the Conservatives at every opportunity. Of course I'm not
:37:04. > :37:08.against democracy, three years ago we decided we wanted to stay. We've
:37:09. > :37:13.got the Brexit process. I actually think Kenny MacAskill and Jim
:37:14. > :37:18.Sellers are people that Nicola Sturgeon should listen to today, Jim
:37:19. > :37:22.saying yes, he wants all the referendum but not now, and Kenny
:37:23. > :37:28.saying there is too much rhetoric and not enough action from the SNP
:37:29. > :37:35.Government. So forget about the referendum, get on with the day job.
:37:36. > :37:41.I come back to this point, if Lib Dem MPs in Westminster vote against
:37:42. > :37:46.the section 30 order -- Section 30 order, that puts you in a less
:37:47. > :37:50.liberal position than the Conservatives. They may argue about
:37:51. > :37:53.the timing and the question, but they are not saying that in
:37:54. > :37:59.principle they will not authorise the Scottish parliament to have
:38:00. > :38:03.another independence referendum. Don't try and define what liberalism
:38:04. > :38:08.means, liberalism to me is about the referendum result from three years
:38:09. > :38:15.ago, and Nicola Sargent -- Sturgeon said it would be once in a lifetime.
:38:16. > :38:20.It is about focusing on the big issues that the country faces now,
:38:21. > :38:25.with declining educational standards, a mental health strategy
:38:26. > :38:29.that is slipping right back. Those are the big issues that liberalism
:38:30. > :38:32.will focus on. I am an internationalist. I want to oppose
:38:33. > :38:40.Brexit and keep the United Kingdom together. But you will be accused by
:38:41. > :38:46.the SNP, but not just buy them, of being anti-democratic. Come on.
:38:47. > :38:53.Anti-democratic? When we have been the ones who have advocated
:38:54. > :38:58.electoral reform, we are the ones who have been advocating to make
:38:59. > :39:03.sure that the country pays heed to the majority of people in this
:39:04. > :39:08.country. The SNP will always decry any party that believes in the UK. I
:39:09. > :39:10.don't believe to them any more. What did you make of Jeremy Corbyn said
:39:11. > :39:18.don't believe to them any more. What another independence referendum is
:39:19. > :39:22.fine -- is fine? It was the same kind of casual indifference, he
:39:23. > :39:26.doesn't seem to care about the United Kingdom sticking together. I
:39:27. > :39:29.know that is not the view of my colleagues in the Scottish Labour
:39:30. > :39:32.Party, they must be telling their hair out this morning at what he
:39:33. > :39:36.said yesterday. I find it astonishing that he can be so casual
:39:37. > :39:41.about the future of the United Kingdom, just as he's being so
:39:42. > :39:46.casual about the future of the EU. Why is it that when you are against
:39:47. > :39:47.having another independence referendum, to such an extent that
:39:48. > :39:51.you MPs at Westminster will vote for referendum, to such an extent that
:39:52. > :39:59.the Westminster Parliament to stop the Scottish Parliament holding one,
:40:00. > :40:03.yet it is absolutely vital apparently that we have another
:40:04. > :40:07.referendum on the EU? Gordon, Brexit is one of the most monumental things
:40:08. > :40:14.that has happened to this country probably since the war -- Second
:40:15. > :40:19.World War. The very least that we can do is, once we have seen the
:40:20. > :40:24.detail of the deal that the Conservatives agreed, that the
:40:25. > :40:28.British people sign it off. I mean, our grandchildren will look back at
:40:29. > :40:30.this and say, what on earth were you doing? Why did you just let it go
:40:31. > :40:36.past without any question, in such a doing? Why did you just let it go
:40:37. > :40:40.casual manner? We need to make sure that we protect the security, the
:40:41. > :40:44.environment, the economy of this country, and if we are just going to
:40:45. > :40:49.casually let Brexit go through, with no question, that is not looking
:40:50. > :40:52.after our country. But does it mean nothing that the SNP in the last
:40:53. > :40:57.Scottish election said in their manifesto that, should Scotland vote
:40:58. > :41:03.to stay in the EU and the rest of the UK food to leave, they wanted
:41:04. > :41:08.approval to hold another referendum, they then won that election- does
:41:09. > :41:14.that give them no mandate at all? They didn't win the election, they
:41:15. > :41:18.lost the majority. They won in more than the Tories and Westminster won
:41:19. > :41:25.the election. A lot more than the Lib Dems did in the last Government.
:41:26. > :41:27.-- they were in the last Government. But they didn't win a majority in
:41:28. > :41:31.-- they were in the last Government. the Scottish election. They said at
:41:32. > :41:36.the last independence referendum that it would be once in a lifetime,
:41:37. > :41:40.maybe once in this generation, so now they are saying they want yet
:41:41. > :41:45.another independence referendum, to cause more division in our country,
:41:46. > :41:49.cause more economic chaos. We have already had Andrew Wilson admitting
:41:50. > :41:54.that they misled people at the last independence referendum about oil.
:41:55. > :41:57.The last thing we need is to impose another independence referendum of
:41:58. > :42:00.Scotland, that would be divisive, unhelpful, not good for our
:42:01. > :42:04.security, our environment and our future. Thank you, Willie Rennie,
:42:05. > :42:06.for joining us. Well, the Scottish Greens also held
:42:07. > :42:09.a conference this weekend. Like the Liberal Democrats, they
:42:10. > :42:12.want to grow their MSP numbers - Yet even though they remain
:42:13. > :42:15.Holyrood's smallest parties, both Willie Rennie and Patrick Harvie say
:42:16. > :42:18.they aren't minnows in the political stream, but big fish whose
:42:19. > :42:35.cooperation the other Spring conference for the Scottish
:42:36. > :42:38.Lib Dems. It is the party which was until recently in coalition
:42:39. > :42:42.Government with the Conservatives in Westminster. He is now the former
:42:43. > :42:48.Deputy Prime Minister, but despite the diminished implements --
:42:49. > :42:52.influence, still fighting for what he believes in. In this case, EU
:42:53. > :43:02.membership. These are dark times for liberalism. But the thing that we
:43:03. > :43:06.must be -- beware of is despair and defeatism. Mr Clegg's message was
:43:07. > :43:12.well received, and party members are optimistic. You cannot see the SNP
:43:13. > :43:18.or the Tories having anything positive to say, and obviously the
:43:19. > :43:20.Labour Party are in total disarray. So it leaves the whole field open to
:43:21. > :43:25.the Lib Dems to provide a positive So it leaves the whole field open to
:43:26. > :43:28.vision for everybody. Yes, Brexit is important and we may face another
:43:29. > :43:34.independence referendum, but what people want is good schools, get the
:43:35. > :43:38.streetlights fixed, get the roads fixed. We are the party who can
:43:39. > :43:44.deliver on that. The Scottish Lib Dems are holding their Spring
:43:45. > :43:47.conference here, which is also home to a dedicated curling team. The
:43:48. > :43:51.sport can take energy and commitment, but for those who do not
:43:52. > :43:58.take to the ice, it can seem like a majority -- minority pastime. The
:43:59. > :44:02.Scottish Lib Dems say, though, that they are definitely heading for the
:44:03. > :44:05.big league. Against the juggernaut of the SNP
:44:06. > :44:10.and the larger Tory and Labour parties, though, what difference can
:44:11. > :44:14.a smaller party really make? If you consider that the SNP are short of a
:44:15. > :44:19.majority by two, that means really everything is to play for. Every
:44:20. > :44:21.party is theoretically as powerful as the next one, because you need to
:44:22. > :44:26.build a coalition of parties to get build a coalition of parties to get
:44:27. > :44:29.-- power to get anything through the Scottish Parliament. We've already
:44:30. > :44:32.be doing that in the last ten months.
:44:33. > :44:37.You had a significant reversal of the Scottish budget, though,
:44:38. > :44:42.recently. We started trying to negotiate. We asked for significant
:44:43. > :44:44.things, like doubling of child and adolescent mental health spending,
:44:45. > :44:49.they were not willing to meet us on this. We decided to walk away. The
:44:50. > :44:54.big issue of the Lib Dems want to put on ice, of course, is
:44:55. > :44:59.independence. That is where the influence of Hollywood's other
:45:00. > :45:02.minority parties is potentially the greatest. At their Spring
:45:03. > :45:06.conference, the Scottish Greens reasserted their desire to see
:45:07. > :45:11.Scotland rule itself, and they condemned Brexit. The party's
:45:12. > :45:15.co-convenor says they are happy to work with the SNP, but they have
:45:16. > :45:19.their own demands as well. Can you see your party almost giving
:45:20. > :45:24.the SNP a bit of backbone on issues like the monarchy and the currency?
:45:25. > :45:27.I think we have been told the conscience of the Scottish
:45:28. > :45:33.Parliament before, I think that is absolutely what we set out to do. To
:45:34. > :45:38.make sure we are as bold as we can be in our political endeavours,
:45:39. > :45:42.whether that is at Holyrood, local authorities, local councils. It is
:45:43. > :45:46.about making sure we push the boundaries of the status quo. The
:45:47. > :45:50.status quo is not delivering for people, it is not helping those who
:45:51. > :45:54.are homeless or who are facing benefit sanctions.
:45:55. > :45:58.We need to be doing better. For these delegates, the future's
:45:59. > :46:04.definitely green. Grassroots politics, it's the best way to get
:46:05. > :46:08.out to get votes and make your voice heard. We are on the up, whereas
:46:09. > :46:10.Labour is on the down. Co-convenor of the Scottish Greens
:46:11. > :46:22.Patrick Harvie is with me now. What do you make of the Lib Dems
:46:23. > :46:24.saying they would try to stop authorisation for another
:46:25. > :46:29.independence referendum? I think it would be profoundly damaging and
:46:30. > :46:35.disrespectful for any Westminster party to block a referendum if that
:46:36. > :46:39.is what Scotland decides. But their position is, as I think you tried to
:46:40. > :46:43.tease out, quite contradictory, with their demand for a second Brexit
:46:44. > :46:47.referendum. I can understand why some people south of the border
:46:48. > :46:51.would want that, my own colleagues in Wales make the same case, but it
:46:52. > :46:55.doesn't answer the question, what would be there to prevent exactly
:46:56. > :47:00.the same outcome happening, with the rest of the UK voting to leave and
:47:01. > :47:03.Scotland voted to remain, and Scotland's view being entirely
:47:04. > :47:10.overwritten? That's what happened last time, the Lib Dems seem to have
:47:11. > :47:15.no solution to that conundrum. Jeremy Corbyn, referendum absolutely
:47:16. > :47:20.fine? Clarification later? Do you think Labour have a clear policy on
:47:21. > :47:24.this? Do I think Labour have a clear policy on anything at the moment?
:47:25. > :47:27.I'm not sure they know how to resolve the fundamental problems
:47:28. > :47:31.north or south of the border. Trying in Scotland to win back those who
:47:32. > :47:35.left them for a yes vote, and can't go back to the Labour Party because
:47:36. > :47:43.of that, as well as those who have left them because of a no vote, and
:47:44. > :47:48.have moved to Ruth Davidson. I don't think they can put that puzzle back
:47:49. > :47:54.together. You have said you would support another referendum. I am
:47:55. > :48:00.curious as to your attitude to Europe. There is some discussion as
:48:01. > :48:03.you know within the Yes camp and the SNP about whether another campaign
:48:04. > :48:08.for independence should argue for joining or rejoining the European
:48:09. > :48:13.union, with some arguing that because maybe something like 30% of
:48:14. > :48:17.yes voters voted to leave, it would be better to say, we will join EFTA,
:48:18. > :48:21.maybe not join the customs be better to say, we will join EFTA,
:48:22. > :48:24.there would be no barrier between Scotland and England for trade.
:48:25. > :48:30.Would you support a yes campaign, which would be saying, we just want
:48:31. > :48:36.to join the European free trade area? It remains to be seen whether
:48:37. > :48:41.there is going to be a call for a referendum in the near future. Many
:48:42. > :48:45.people are anticipating that article 50 will be involved, and the UK
:48:46. > :48:51.Government will refuse even to discuss bespoke arrangements for
:48:52. > :48:56.Scotland. Once we see how that situation shakes out, we will know
:48:57. > :48:59.what the likelihood is, and the timing of any future referendum. We
:49:00. > :49:03.have got some really important decisions to make first of all in
:49:04. > :49:10.Scotland about how we deal with our domestic issues. This weekend we are
:49:11. > :49:14.talking about the local elections in eight weeks' time. But would you
:49:15. > :49:18.support a yes campaign or a campaign for independence that was not
:49:19. > :49:24.explicitly saying that Scotland should rejoin the EU? If that
:49:25. > :49:29.campaign does get under way, I don't think the main campaign bodies on
:49:30. > :49:33.either side should be endorsing one party's position on anything, from
:49:34. > :49:39.oil policy to Nato membership... My party will continue to argue for EU
:49:40. > :49:44.oil policy to Nato membership... My membership. But what should the
:49:45. > :49:47.independence -- but after all, the reason for calling another
:49:48. > :49:51.referendum according to both yourself and Nicola Sturgeon is
:49:52. > :49:54.because of Scotland voting to stay in the EU and Britain voted to
:49:55. > :49:59.leave. If we are going to have an independence campaign that is not
:50:00. > :50:16.calling for rejoining or joining the EU, does that make another -- any
:50:17. > :50:23.sense in your view? The campaign bodies on both sides should be
:50:24. > :50:29.focused on the question being asked, not on trying to promote one party
:50:30. > :50:36.'s view on issues. There could be arguments from the conservative
:50:37. > :50:40.Garver and in London, they may argue, in principle you are going to
:50:41. > :50:46.have another independence referendum, but no. We are in the
:50:47. > :50:53.middle of negotiating Brexit. It would be in the interest of the
:50:54. > :50:59.United Kingdom and Scotland if another independence referendum was
:51:00. > :51:11.held after we knew what the final Brexit deal is. We can expect from
:51:12. > :51:14.the UK Government and other abuse of their power. They say that they want
:51:15. > :51:16.to prevent a second independence referendum but they are doing
:51:17. > :51:23.everything they can to close down any discussion at all about how
:51:24. > :51:29.Scotland voted. They are demanding in the Scottish Parliament that
:51:30. > :51:34.everybody focused on the day job but they are going out around every
:51:35. > :51:39.community in Scotland campaigning in the local elections and saying one
:51:40. > :51:46.thing only, no independence referendum. They are the ones of
:51:47. > :51:56.Sastre with the issue. What you are seeing is vote in the local
:51:57. > :51:59.elections. You haven't again answered my question which is
:52:00. > :52:02.timing. Do you think it will make sense to say it, even if you are in
:52:03. > :52:04.favour of it, let's just wait until we know the Brexit deal? The
:52:05. > :52:15.question of timing is going to be one that the Scottish parliament and
:52:16. > :52:18.the UK Parliament have to debate. My view is it would be far better if
:52:19. > :52:21.this question is put before we are dragged out of the European Union
:52:22. > :52:25.against our will. So that people have the choice, that people in
:52:26. > :52:31.Scotland get to make their own decision, about whether, I regret
:52:32. > :52:33.usually that people are not going to be able to have both referendums
:52:34. > :52:43.respected. The UK Government can change its mind on that, they can
:52:44. > :52:48.say we will respect the 2014 result and the way they voted in 2016 to
:52:49. > :53:00.remain in Europe. But they are refusing to do that. Give me one
:53:01. > :53:03.sentence and how you want power to vault in Scotland. It is not just a
:53:04. > :53:05.prize to be one. It is about making change. We have got one of the most
:53:06. > :53:07.centralised systems of local democracy in Europe. It could be
:53:08. > :53:11.democratically much more powerful. Putting power back in people's
:53:12. > :53:23.hands, giving them the ability to make decisions about economic policy
:53:24. > :53:25.that rate for them. It should not be entirely about Westminster or
:53:26. > :53:30.Holyrood has power, it should be much broader? Absolutely. In the
:53:31. > :53:33.next eight weeks we will be setting out an agenda in the way that we do
:53:34. > :53:39.local government in this country, putting power back in people's
:53:40. > :53:45.hands, investing in public sensors. We want to make sure that our
:53:46. > :53:53.councils are equally creative, innovative and it and committed to
:53:54. > :53:59.protecting our public services. The Tories are trying to make this about
:54:00. > :54:04.the constitution, they would sell off your public services. Let's not
:54:05. > :54:09.give them the chance. Thank you for coming in this morning.
:54:10. > :54:09.Yesterday, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said it was absolutely
:54:10. > :54:12.fine to hold another vote on Scottish independence.
:54:13. > :54:14.was that although Labour opposes a second independence referendum,
:54:15. > :54:16.it would be wrong for Westminster to block it.
:54:17. > :54:19.Before all that, I spoke to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:54:20. > :54:25.at the Labour Economic conference in Glasgow.
:54:26. > :54:32.Economic policy up here, Labour is arguing for putting up income tax.
:54:33. > :54:43.Is that a very sensible way of trying to rebuild the Labour Party?
:54:44. > :54:49.The Labour Party in Scotland feel that now that the powers have been
:54:50. > :54:55.devolved, this is one way of using the powers effectively. What we're
:54:56. > :55:00.looking at is trying to halt tax cuts to the rich and corporations.
:55:01. > :55:01.The Scottish Labour Party is able to develop social policies like this
:55:02. > :55:06.and that is why it is in their develop social policies like this
:55:07. > :55:21.interest. Publics bending in Scotland is well above, 10% or more.
:55:22. > :55:27.Why is a good idea, where we are already spending more money in
:55:28. > :55:33.public service is, your taxes need to go up. Whereas Labour in England
:55:34. > :55:38.where spending is lower, are not seeing two people we need to
:55:39. > :55:39.increase income tax. This is the refreshing thing about the Scottish
:55:40. > :55:45.Labour Party. I understand. The refreshing thing about the Scottish
:55:46. > :55:50.substance of the issue is that the Scottish Labour Party can determine
:55:51. > :55:55.the specific needs of Scotland, the specific circumstances and develop
:55:56. > :56:01.the wrong policies. What I am looking out at the rest of the
:56:02. > :56:11.country is a form of power, to look at how they examine their taxes and
:56:12. > :56:18.that will be looking at local services eventually. That gives
:56:19. > :56:24.freedom to local groups. This idea of a federal Britain which Kezia
:56:25. > :56:29.Dugdale wants to be the answer. What is it? Way back in the 1980s when I
:56:30. > :56:34.was a civil servant, we were looking at different structures of
:56:35. > :56:39.government and how they worked. I was doing papers at that point of
:56:40. > :56:46.time forms of regional government and Scotland as well, and it would
:56:47. > :56:51.enable people to determine, first of all, what powers they needed to
:56:52. > :56:54.address the problems they saw in their community, what tax base they
:56:55. > :56:58.had that they could draw on, what partners they wanted to work with.
:56:59. > :57:00.That debate I was engaged with in the 1980s. The specifics of it will
:57:01. > :57:08.come from that dialogue and the 1980s. The specifics of it will
:57:09. > :57:15.discussion. , this idea of a federal Britain, is that something you are
:57:16. > :57:20.discussing? It is opening up this debate. That is why Kezia Dugdale is
:57:21. > :57:26.our game we should have a framework of some sort. Let's open up that
:57:27. > :57:31.debate now because people see there is a frustration and a bit of anger
:57:32. > :57:35.at times as well about the centralised decision-making that is
:57:36. > :57:37.taking place at Whitehall and Westminster. That is in some
:57:38. > :57:42.instances being biased against the regions. The problem you're going to
:57:43. > :57:46.have a here is we could be heading for another independence referendum
:57:47. > :57:51.have a here is we could be heading in the next year, 18 months. If
:57:52. > :57:53.Labour Party might argument as we do not want independence because we
:57:54. > :57:59.have this plan for a federal Britain, but it is not part of party
:58:00. > :58:04.policy, we are just King about. Our argument is that. We do not think
:58:05. > :58:09.the independence referendum as relevant today. The issues that the
:58:10. > :58:11.Scottish Government should be confronting our those raised in
:58:12. > :58:15.Scottish Government should be discussions. The point is that from
:58:16. > :58:17.Scottish Government should be Kezia Dugdale's point of view, is
:58:18. > :58:26.the people was my constitution, and the referendum was an answer. The
:58:27. > :58:28.point I am making to you if it is not Labour policy, there is no
:58:29. > :58:37.constitutional convention. But there will be, that is the whole point. We
:58:38. > :58:42.will see if that referendum comes at all. I hope it will not. I would
:58:43. > :58:48.hope that the SNP government would get on with the problems that are.
:58:49. > :58:55.But will you have a policy? We will engage thoroughly in this debate,
:58:56. > :58:59.about where we want to go, how we arrive at tax bases which are
:59:00. > :59:02.sustainable in the long-term future and at same time secures the
:59:03. > :59:10.prospecting for all the people in the country. That debate is starting
:59:11. > :59:13.now. If the SNP are promoting and pushing for a referendum, my view is
:59:14. > :59:18.that it is a complete distraction from the issues they should be
:59:19. > :59:28.addressing and I do not understand the urgency on this. What about
:59:29. > :59:31.timing. There could be another referendum on independence but not
:59:32. > :59:38.until Rex that is finalised. I don't want one. But you will have to make
:59:39. > :59:42.a decision. I have said to the SNP and others. Get on with the job. But
:59:43. > :59:44.she will not vote against the section 30 in Parliament. We want to
:59:45. > :59:53.she will not vote against the see what the nature of the section
:59:54. > :59:53.30 is. We are staying, it is a hypothetical question, let's see
:59:54. > :59:55.30 is. We are staying, it is a what it is. People I meet are
:59:56. > :59:58.worried about their jobs. And the what it is. People I meet are
:59:59. > :00:08.education of their children. When you say let's see what it is, what
:00:09. > :00:12.do you mean? What would stop you voting for it? How can we make a
:00:13. > :00:15.decision on if we do not know what the content says. It would give the
:00:16. > :00:18.Scottish Government at the authorisation to hold another
:00:19. > :00:26.independence referendum. What other details, we cannot vote for
:00:27. > :00:31.something where we do not know the details are. RUC loosely suggesting
:00:32. > :00:36.that if you do not like the detours you will vote against them? No. You
:00:37. > :00:38.have asked me a hypothetical question and something that has not
:00:39. > :00:48.been hypothetically put forward yet. Let's see what it is. What is the
:00:49. > :00:53.detail of the question, do you know? Do you know what the overall
:00:54. > :00:57.referendum will look like? We don't know. What I am saying to the SNP,
:00:58. > :01:02.independence is not a big issue. The big job -- you is if people have a
:01:03. > :01:09.job. Get on with the job of tackling those issues. The real pragmatic
:01:10. > :01:13.bread and butter issues. Labour in Scotland can envy your position in
:01:14. > :01:25.England because they are way behind. If you are going to build Labour
:01:26. > :01:30.support, where would you start? You start doing what we have done today.
:01:31. > :01:33.In Scotland, this is first economic conference. You go and talk to
:01:34. > :01:37.people who have turned up today and there are large numbers, talking
:01:38. > :01:42.about the development of the Scottish economy, in detail. You
:01:43. > :01:48.start from that grassroots discussion about what the real
:01:49. > :01:52.issues facing people, what are the solutions and creativity we can
:01:53. > :01:54.unleash to let that happen. At the end of the day this is about
:01:55. > :01:59.people's lives and livelihoods living standards. What you are
:02:00. > :02:02.saying does not add up. Do you think you're going to keep Glasgow and the
:02:03. > :02:10.local elections? We will see how it goes. We will fight for every vote.
:02:11. > :02:13.We know how tough it is out there. But she rebuilt the Labour Party on
:02:14. > :02:15.the basis of engaging people with the real-world issues they are
:02:16. > :02:26.facing. And there are ideas for the future. You used to run this place.
:02:27. > :02:32.Jeremy Corbyn was elected 20 months ago, he is engaged in a process of
:02:33. > :02:37.new politics and honest politics in some respects. We are building a
:02:38. > :02:42.mass movement and the way we are doing that is in engaging. We know
:02:43. > :02:49.it is difficult. But that work has started now. It is building upon the
:02:50. > :02:54.enthusiasm of people saying we want to challenge the establishment, we
:02:55. > :02:59.want to look up visions of the future and we are harnessing the
:03:00. > :03:06.creativity with working people in discussions like this. But yesterday
:03:07. > :03:10.you were 16 points behind the Conservative Party. I take your
:03:11. > :03:12.point about building a mass movement and everyone knows that Ray Burke
:03:13. > :03:15.has a lot of young, enthusiastic members who have joined. It is not
:03:16. > :03:22.working in terms of building a potential government. It will take
:03:23. > :03:28.time, we know that. But if you look at what was happening last year, we
:03:29. > :03:33.won mayoral elections and we were level or ahead with the Tories in
:03:34. > :03:38.the poll. We went through another leadership election. They are
:03:39. > :03:40.contested and it shows differences of view within the party itself.
:03:41. > :03:44.Jeremy gets re-elected. Of course people will not fought for a divided
:03:45. > :03:56.party. We are united in love. We are engaging with them in the discussion
:03:57. > :04:00.of ideas. Today's conferences about the idea is that the people all
:04:01. > :04:08.clear that they want to implement for the future of our country. You
:04:09. > :04:10.know you have lost hundreds of thousands of voters a peer who
:04:11. > :04:13.habitually voted Labour don't do that. If one of them said to you,
:04:14. > :04:16.how do we take Labour is seriously. Just in Scotland we know Kezia
:04:17. > :04:21.Dugdale, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party isn't a fan of Jeremy
:04:22. > :04:23.Corbyn. She said despite being leader of the Scottish Labour Party,
:04:24. > :04:33.she came out publicly against them in the last leadership campaign. And
:04:34. > :04:36.now everyone is pretending to be hanged. But what if people say, we
:04:37. > :04:41.cannot take these people seriously. What holds us together is that we
:04:42. > :04:45.are Democrats. Jeremy had a renewed mandate, a bigger mandate and Kezia
:04:46. > :04:52.Dugdale respect that. What we will do know is how you would we build
:04:53. > :05:03.the party, you bring people part to the party together. You listen to
:05:04. > :05:04.them and you listen to the issues they face. Then you talk about the
:05:05. > :05:08.ideas. But there is nothing. What they face. Then you talk about the
:05:09. > :05:09.holds us together is a view we need to transform society. That we will
:05:10. > :05:11.not be dictated by an to transform society. That we will
:05:12. > :05:13.wherever they are, wait all Westminster. We will be build
:05:14. > :05:18.communities. We are going through some of the worst austerity measures
:05:19. > :05:29.that our country has faced in generations, cuts across the public
:05:30. > :05:40.services, people being treated on trolleys and hospitals. People are
:05:41. > :05:42.experiencing homelessness that we are not seen either skill in
:05:43. > :05:45.generations. What holds us together, is that we will not stand down and
:05:46. > :05:48.see those injustices. We will rebuild the Labour Party and it will
:05:49. > :05:49.be a long haul in parts of the country. We will listen to people,
:05:50. > :05:52.understanding their concerns, engaging them in developing the idea
:05:53. > :06:05.is to transform our society and in that weak tackling those real issues
:06:06. > :06:10.that people are experiencing. Are you going to be the next Chancellor
:06:11. > :06:20.of the Exchequer? I'm not sure how long Philip Hammond is going to hold
:06:21. > :06:24.on. I don't know how long he is going to survive after the Horlicks
:06:25. > :06:26.he made of this budget. After the next election, I will be the
:06:27. > :06:28.Chancellor. Well, this morning Labour
:06:29. > :06:30.have issued a statement "Scottish Labour is firmly opposed
:06:31. > :06:53.to a second referendum. Time now for a look back
:06:54. > :06:55.at the week gone by, and the next seven days,
:06:56. > :07:05.in The Week Ahead. I'm joined now by the Investigations
:07:06. > :07:07.Editor of The Herald, Paul Hutcheon, and Margaret Smith
:07:08. > :07:19.from Caledonia Public Affairs who's What did you make of what Willie
:07:20. > :07:25.Rennie had to say about the Liberal Democrats trying to block another
:07:26. > :07:29.referendum? I think he is looking at what was in their last manifesto and
:07:30. > :07:34.saying they are totally opposed to another referendum. He doesn't want
:07:35. > :07:38.to get caught out being accused of not going along with what was in his
:07:39. > :07:44.manifesto. So he is looking at it and saying, we don't want another
:07:45. > :07:49.referendum. But that's fine, it's another thing to say our MPs at
:07:50. > :07:54.Westminster will vote to stop authorisation for the Scottish
:07:55. > :07:55.Parliament to hold one. But his arguments for saying that because he
:07:56. > :08:00.says right now we are focused on arguments for saying that because he
:08:01. > :08:05.Brexit, we are focused on trying to actually deal with a calamitous
:08:06. > :08:11.decision by Theresa May to take us off a cliff into a hard Brexit. He
:08:12. > :08:15.is saying that's what Liberal Democrats and the country should be
:08:16. > :08:20.focusing on. What did you make of it? I can't imagine it's a position
:08:21. > :08:28.that will hold in the. Ruth Davidson is clearly most against a second
:08:29. > :08:33.referendum. Do you think Willie Rennie is trying to out Ruth
:08:34. > :08:36.Davidson Ruth Davidson? She has never said Westminster should block
:08:37. > :08:44.Davidson Ruth Davidson? She has a second independence referendum.
:08:45. > :08:49.But Willie Rennie now has. Indeed, I think it is quite unadventurous
:08:50. > :08:54.position by the Lib Dems, I think ultimately if there is negotiation,
:08:55. > :08:59.I would imagine that the Lib Dem position will be modified. -- it is
:09:00. > :09:05.quite an adventurous position. We had John McDonnell saying there,
:09:06. > :09:09.talking about unity and how everybody is going to get together,
:09:10. > :09:15.then Jeremy Corbyn made his remarks saying it is absolutely fine. And a
:09:16. > :09:23.few hours later, Ian Murray, the only Labour MP, saying, often asked
:09:24. > :09:27.why I resigned from Shadow Cabinet, ladies and gentlemen, I give you
:09:28. > :09:32.Jeremy Corbyn. He is destroying the party. John McDonnell's position was
:09:33. > :09:35.perfectly consistent with what Scottish Labour has been saying, but
:09:36. > :09:42.Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday he was fine with a referendum. Kezia
:09:43. > :09:46.Dugdale wobbled on independence at the last Holyrood election, Ruth
:09:47. > :09:53.moved into second place. Over the last few months, she has tightened
:09:54. > :09:56.her position and opposition to a second referendum. Jeremy Corbyn has
:09:57. > :10:01.gone off on some stream of consciousness riff and undermined
:10:02. > :10:04.all the work that has been done. Maybe he is just saying, I am a
:10:05. > :10:08.Democrat. I am not in the Ben -- Maybe he is just saying, I am a
:10:09. > :10:13.business of stopping a second referendum. Second -- certainly
:10:14. > :10:17.Scottish Labour would agree it is not to be blocked, if that is what
:10:18. > :10:21.people want, but I think Labour's position has to be determined in
:10:22. > :10:25.Scotland. We've seen over the last couple of weeks Sadiq Khan come up,
:10:26. > :10:31.Jeremy Corbyn come up, saying things that are entirely unhelpful.
:10:32. > :10:38.Margaret? I think what comes over is just confusion. Scottish Labour
:10:39. > :10:45.wants to take ownership of this, and I think... But presumably it is that
:10:46. > :10:49.so much effort was put in by Kezia Dugdale to the party conference that
:10:50. > :10:54.they had a few weeks ago, to say we want this people's constitution
:10:55. > :10:56.Convention, we don't want another independence referendum. This is
:10:57. > :11:02.going to be our answer to this question that we haven't been
:11:03. > :11:05.answering, and that is all undermined. The exasperation will
:11:06. > :11:09.come from the fact that Kezia Dugdale has made some good
:11:10. > :11:10.apartments in the last few months, she is actually working really hard
:11:11. > :11:28.on these issues. And you can now see the total exasperation,
:11:29. > :11:31.because Jeremy Corbyn comes up, doesn't read the script, and
:11:32. > :11:33.suddenly goes off on one when he is on a walkabout. And I think you can
:11:34. > :11:36.understand where the Scottish Labour Party is coming from, they want to
:11:37. > :11:38.be clear in terms of where they stand on the Scottish referendum,
:11:39. > :11:41.and that they are opposed to independence. She did wobble a bit
:11:42. > :11:43.on this, and in fact Nicola still taunts her at First Minister 's
:11:44. > :11:46.question Time on this. So I think Labour needs to be clear where they
:11:47. > :11:50.stand in terms of independence referendums. When you are looking at
:11:51. > :11:54.the polls, there is no clarity with the Scottish people. Some people
:11:55. > :11:59.want it immediately, some people after 2021, some people never want
:12:00. > :12:04.it at all, some people want it in ten years' time. How do you say,
:12:05. > :12:10."This is what the Scottish people want"? At some point, Labour have to
:12:11. > :12:15.agree to disagree in a more friendly way. Because it is not just one
:12:16. > :12:21.side, no matter what you think of what Jeremy Corbyn said, to put out
:12:22. > :12:28.retweet light -- like Ian Murray's to say that he is destroying the
:12:29. > :12:36.Labour Party, that just reopens the winds, doesn't it? Yes, I think it
:12:37. > :12:40.is a proxy battle, there is no doubt that the Scottish leadership holds
:12:41. > :12:45.Jeremy Corbyn -- loathes Jeremy Corbyn and his agenda. What I think
:12:46. > :12:51.is interesting about the Lib Dem staff is that I can see the outlines
:12:52. > :12:55.of a second referendum, I can see a fairly united yes campaign under the
:12:56. > :13:00.command of Nicola Sturgeon, but if fractured and divided no campaign or
:13:01. > :13:05.pro-UK campaign, with different voices saying different things.
:13:06. > :13:09.There are signs of some within if not the SNP itself, the broad
:13:10. > :13:12.pro-independence movement, some of the things that Kenny MacAskill and
:13:13. > :13:15.Jim Sellers have been saying, there appears to be a debate about whether
:13:16. > :13:29.other pro-independence campaign should even be in
:13:30. > :13:32.favour of being in the European Union. Yes, this is a strange one.
:13:33. > :13:34.The reason that a second independence referendum is on the
:13:35. > :13:37.table, we are told, is because of Scotland's "Remain" quote. We are
:13:38. > :13:40.saying that immediately entry into the EU might not be part of the
:13:41. > :13:44.deal. That seems a huge contradiction and something that the
:13:45. > :13:49.Tories and Labour would pounce on. But Willie Rennie pounced on that
:13:50. > :13:50.yesterday and said, if you are internationalist, do not trust what
:13:51. > :13:51.the SNP are saying to you. That's all from us this week; I'll
:13:52. > :13:55.be back at the same time next week. Young people
:13:56. > :13:59.from all over the country have been getting involved
:14:00. > :14:03.in BBC School Report.