:00:43. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:54.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:55. > :00:57.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:58. > :01:03.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:04. > :01:07.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:08. > :01:09.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:10. > :01:13.And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...
:01:14. > :01:14.Labour prepares to discuss Kezia Dugdale's federal
:01:15. > :01:29.I'll be asking - is the idea really a runner?
:01:30. > :01:32.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:35.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:36. > :01:41.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:42. > :01:43.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:44. > :01:49.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:50. > :01:53.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:54. > :01:55.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:56. > :01:58.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:59. > :02:01.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:02. > :02:05.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:06. > :02:07.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:08. > :02:15.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:16. > :02:23.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:24. > :02:27.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:28. > :02:30.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:31. > :02:35.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:36. > :02:38.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:39. > :02:43.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:44. > :02:46.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:47. > :02:52.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:53. > :02:56.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:57. > :03:01.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:03:02. > :03:05.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:06. > :03:09.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:10. > :03:13.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:14. > :03:19.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:20. > :03:22.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:23. > :03:27.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:28. > :03:32.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:33. > :03:35.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:36. > :03:40.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:41. > :03:45.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:46. > :03:49.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:50. > :03:54.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:55. > :03:59.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:04:00. > :04:03.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:04. > :04:09.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:10. > :04:15.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:16. > :04:19.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:20. > :04:24.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:25. > :04:27.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:28. > :04:34.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:35. > :04:38.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:39. > :04:42.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:43. > :04:46.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:47. > :04:49.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:50. > :04:52.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:53. > :04:55.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:56. > :05:00.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:05:01. > :05:05.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:06. > :05:07.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:08. > :05:14.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:15. > :05:18.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:19. > :05:29.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:30. > :05:34.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:35. > :05:36."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:37. > :05:39.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:40. > :05:42.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:43. > :05:45.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:46. > :05:48.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:49. > :05:51.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:52. > :05:58.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:59. > :06:04.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:05. > :06:06.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:07. > :06:09.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:10. > :06:12.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:13. > :06:16.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:17. > :06:25.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:26. > :06:27.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:28. > :06:29.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:30. > :06:31.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:32. > :06:35.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:36. > :06:37.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:38. > :06:41.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:42. > :06:49...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:50. > :06:52.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:53. > :06:57.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:58. > :07:05.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:06. > :07:08.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:09. > :07:12.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:13. > :07:16.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:17. > :07:20.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:21. > :07:24.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:25. > :07:28.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:29. > :07:32.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:33. > :07:40.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:41. > :07:42.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:43. > :07:47.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:48. > :07:51.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:52. > :07:54.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:55. > :08:00.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:08:01. > :08:04.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:05. > :08:07.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:08. > :08:13.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:14. > :08:18.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:19. > :08:24.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:25. > :08:28.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:29. > :08:32.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:33. > :08:35.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:36. > :08:39.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:40. > :08:43.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:44. > :08:47.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:48. > :08:51.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:52. > :08:56.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:57. > :09:01.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:02. > :09:06.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:07. > :09:11.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:12. > :09:16.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:17. > :09:21.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:22. > :09:25.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:26. > :09:30.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:31. > :09:35.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:36. > :09:39.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:40. > :09:44.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:45. > :09:48.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:49. > :09:53.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:54. > :09:57.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:58. > :10:01.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:02. > :10:06.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:07. > :10:10.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:11. > :10:13.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:14. > :10:18.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:19. > :10:23.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:24. > :10:27.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:28. > :10:30.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:31. > :10:37.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:38. > :10:41.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:42. > :10:45.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:46. > :10:49.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:50. > :10:52.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:53. > :10:56.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:57. > :11:00.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:11:01. > :11:05.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:06. > :11:09.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:10. > :11:12.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:13. > :11:15.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:16. > :11:23.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:24. > :11:28.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:29. > :11:36.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:37. > :11:39.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:40. > :11:43.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:44. > :11:49.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:50. > :11:51.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:52. > :11:56.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:57. > :11:58.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:59. > :12:01.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:12:02. > :12:08.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:09. > :12:11.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:12. > :12:20.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:21. > :12:25.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:26. > :12:28.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:29. > :12:35.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:36. > :12:41.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:42. > :12:49.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:50. > :12:52.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:55.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:56. > :12:59.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:13:00. > :13:04.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:05. > :13:08.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:09. > :13:11.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:12. > :13:17.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:18. > :13:20.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:21. > :13:26.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:27. > :13:31.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:32. > :13:38.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:39. > :13:42.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:43. > :13:46.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:47. > :13:50.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:51. > :13:56.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:57. > :14:01.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:14:02. > :14:06.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:07. > :14:12.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:13. > :14:16.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:17. > :14:20.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:21. > :14:23.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:24. > :14:29.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:30. > :14:33.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:34. > :14:38.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:39. > :14:44.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:45. > :14:48.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:49. > :14:55.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:56. > :15:01.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:15:02. > :15:05.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:06. > :15:07.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:08. > :15:13.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:14. > :15:19.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:20. > :15:23.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:24. > :15:29.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:30. > :15:33.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:34. > :15:38.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:39. > :15:42.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:43. > :15:46.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:47. > :15:50.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:51. > :15:55.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:56. > :15:58.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:59. > :16:02.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:03. > :16:11.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:12. > :16:15.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:16. > :16:20.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:21. > :16:24.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:25. > :16:29.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:30. > :16:35.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:36. > :16:39.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:40. > :16:49.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:50. > :16:53.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:54. > :17:01.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:02. > :17:07.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:08. > :17:13.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:14. > :17:17.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:18. > :17:22.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:23. > :17:25.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:26. > :17:32.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:33. > :17:39.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:40. > :17:43.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:44. > :17:49.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:50. > :17:53.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:54. > :18:00.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:18:01. > :18:04.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:05. > :18:17.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:18. > :18:22.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:23. > :18:25.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:26. > :18:29.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:30. > :18:33.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:34. > :18:40.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:41. > :18:43.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:44. > :18:49.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:50. > :18:53.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:54. > :18:57.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:58. > :19:01.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:19:02. > :19:06.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:07. > :19:11.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:12. > :19:16.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:17. > :19:21.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:22. > :19:25.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:26. > :19:30.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:31. > :19:37.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:38. > :19:42.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:43. > :19:47.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:48. > :19:53.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:54. > :19:57.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:58. > :20:05.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:06. > :20:09.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:10. > :20:15.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:16. > :20:18.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:19. > :20:24.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:25. > :20:28.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:29. > :20:35.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:36. > :20:40.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:41. > :20:44.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:45. > :20:49.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:50. > :20:54.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:55. > :20:57.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:58. > :21:02.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:03. > :21:04.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:05. > :21:21.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:22. > :21:24.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:25. > :21:26.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:27. > :21:32.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:33. > :21:37.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:38. > :21:41.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:42. > :21:47.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:48. > :21:52.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:53. > :21:56.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:57. > :22:04.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:05. > :22:09.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:10. > :22:14.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:15. > :22:21.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:22. > :22:26.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:27. > :22:32.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:33. > :22:37.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:38. > :22:44.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:45. > :22:49.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:50. > :22:52.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:53. > :23:03.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:04. > :23:09.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:10. > :23:13.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:14. > :23:17.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:18. > :23:22.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:23. > :23:26.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:27. > :23:31.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:32. > :23:36.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:37. > :23:41.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:42. > :23:46.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:47. > :23:52.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:53. > :23:59.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:24:00. > :24:04.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:05. > :24:10.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:11. > :24:18.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:19. > :24:22.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:23. > :24:33.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:34. > :24:39.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:40. > :24:43.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:44. > :24:46.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:47. > :24:52.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:53. > :24:57.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:58. > :25:01.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:25:02. > :25:05.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:06. > :25:11.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:12. > :25:14.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:15. > :25:20.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:21. > :25:26.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:27. > :25:27.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:28. > :25:30.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:31. > :25:32.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:33. > :25:33.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:34. > :25:35.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:36. > :25:37.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:38. > :25:40."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:41. > :25:44.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:45. > :25:46.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:47. > :25:51.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:52. > :25:54.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:55. > :26:00.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:26:01. > :26:02.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:03. > :26:04.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:05. > :26:06.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:07. > :26:14.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:15. > :26:16.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:17. > :26:19.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:20. > :26:22.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:23. > :26:24.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:25. > :26:27.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:28. > :26:30."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:31. > :26:39.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:40. > :26:45.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:46. > :26:55.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:56. > :27:01.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:27:02. > :27:06.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:07. > :27:10.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:11. > :27:14.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:15. > :27:18.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:19. > :27:22.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:23. > :27:26.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:27. > :27:33.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:34. > :27:36.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:37. > :27:40.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:41. > :27:43.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:44. > :27:47.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:48. > :27:54.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:55. > :27:59.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:28:00. > :28:03.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:04. > :28:11.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:12. > :28:15.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:16. > :28:23.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:24. > :28:28.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:29. > :28:33.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:34. > :28:38.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:39. > :28:46.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:47. > :29:02.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:03. > :29:06.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:07. > :29:10.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:11. > :29:14.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:15. > :29:19.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:20. > :29:23.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:24. > :29:28.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:29. > :29:33.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:34. > :29:39.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:40. > :29:42.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:43. > :29:46.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:47. > :29:52.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:53. > :29:56.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:57. > :30:03.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:04. > :30:06.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:07. > :30:13.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:14. > :30:17.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:18. > :30:23.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:24. > :30:26.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:27. > :30:36.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:37. > :30:41.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:42. > :30:45.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:46. > :30:51.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:52. > :30:55.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:56. > :30:59.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:31:00. > :31:04.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:05. > :31:09.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:10. > :31:12.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:13. > :31:29.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:30. > :31:31.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:32. > :31:33.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:34. > :31:36.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:37. > :31:39.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:40. > :31:42.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:43. > :31:46.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:47. > :31:50.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:51. > :31:54.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:55. > :31:58.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:59. > :32:05.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:06. > :32:07.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:08. > :32:11.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:12. > :32:17.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:18. > :32:24.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:25. > :32:31.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:32. > :32:34.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:35. > :32:39.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:40. > :32:43.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:44. > :32:47.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:48. > :32:51.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:52. > :32:57.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:58. > :33:00.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:33:01. > :33:08.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:09. > :33:13.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:14. > :33:17.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:18. > :33:21.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:22. > :33:28.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:29. > :33:30.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:31. > :33:36.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:37. > :33:40.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:41. > :33:46.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:47. > :33:53.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:54. > :33:58.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:59. > :34:02.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:03. > :34:06.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:07. > :34:11.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:12. > :34:14.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:15. > :34:18.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:19. > :34:23.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:24. > :34:28.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:29. > :34:33.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:34. > :34:38.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:39. > :34:41.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:42. > :34:45.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:46. > :34:49.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:50. > :34:55.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:56. > :35:03.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:04. > :35:05.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:06. > :35:09.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:10. > :35:13.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:14. > :35:17.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:18. > :35:22.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:23. > :35:26.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:27. > :35:32.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:33. > :35:38.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:39. > :35:42.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:43. > :35:45.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:46. > :35:51.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:52. > :35:55.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:56. > :35:59.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:36:00. > :36:03.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:04. > :36:07.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:08. > :36:11.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:12. > :36:14.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:15. > :36:19.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:20. > :36:23.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:24. > :36:27.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:28. > :36:32.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:33. > :36:36.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:37. > :36:40.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:41. > :36:44.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:45. > :36:47.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:48. > :36:51.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:52. > :36:55.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:56. > :37:00.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:37:01. > :37:04.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:05. > :37:08.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:09. > :37:12.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:13. > :37:16.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:17. > :37:20.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:21. > :37:28.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:29. > :37:32.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:33. > :37:37.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:38. > :37:41.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:42. > :37:44.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:45. > :37:50.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:51. > :37:55.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:56. > :38:01.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:02. > :38:04.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:05. > :38:10.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:11. > :38:13.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:14. > :38:16.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:17. > :38:25.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:26. > :38:29.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:30. > :38:33.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:34. > :38:38.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:39. > :38:48.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:49. > :38:50.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:38:51. > :38:56.Kezia Dugdale wants a federal UK but will Labour help stop another
:38:57. > :38:59.independence referendum any time soon?
:39:00. > :39:02.I'll be asking Scotland's only remaining Labour MP Ian Murray.
:39:03. > :39:05.Why can't the groups tasked with tackling wildlife crime agree
:39:06. > :39:12.And in the week of the attack on Westminster, how do
:39:13. > :39:20.we balance our safety with civil liberties?
:39:21. > :39:25.Mass surveillance has been proven time and again not to prevent
:39:26. > :39:28.attacks like what happened on Wednesday. What does work is
:39:29. > :39:33.targeted surveillance where you have someone in mind, you have a
:39:34. > :39:36.committee that they could be doing, criminal activity, anything, but it
:39:37. > :39:40.is targeted and when the resources go into that it is much better.
:39:41. > :39:43.They say a week is a long time in politics and in the coming week
:39:44. > :39:45.we're expecting some of the most significant political
:39:46. > :39:49.On Tuesday the Scottish Parliament is expected to back a call for
:39:50. > :39:53.And on Wednesday the Prime Minister, Theresa May, will trigger Article
:39:54. > :39:55.50, kicking off the process of the UK leaving
:39:56. > :39:58.The Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones has warned of disengagement
:39:59. > :40:01.moving from Brussels to London after Brexit has been completed.
:40:02. > :40:12.He spoke to BBC Wales' political editor Nick Servini.
:40:13. > :40:20.How concerned are you about the Brexit negotiations? I am concerned
:40:21. > :40:23.because I want to make sure that the UK Government is listening and
:40:24. > :40:27.understands that the UK is not what it was in 1972, one government and
:40:28. > :40:31.one country but a partnership of four nations that work together for
:40:32. > :40:36.a common purpose and that must be deflected in the UK's strategy
:40:37. > :40:39.before it leaves. You have hinted at this engagement with Brussels could
:40:40. > :40:45.move to London after the Brexit this engagement with Brussels could
:40:46. > :40:50.process. Do you feel that this could result in a greater degree of
:40:51. > :40:55.nationalism in Wales and what does it mean for Scotland? I think there
:40:56. > :41:00.is a severe danger that if the UK Government mishandled this, that it
:41:01. > :41:04.will pose a threat to the rest of the UK. It does not have to but it
:41:05. > :41:07.depends how they handle it. For example, they take the view that
:41:08. > :41:11.where power is written to Brussels, they will rest with Westminster. We
:41:12. > :41:16.where power is written to Brussels, disagree with that, we think in
:41:17. > :41:19.areas like agriculture, fisheries, those powers should bypass London
:41:20. > :41:27.and come straight to Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The
:41:28. > :41:30.idea of a federal UK put forward by Kezia Dugdale, the Scottish Labour
:41:31. > :41:35.Leader and yourself, will it make a difference? It will make a big
:41:36. > :41:39.difference. The big question is the English question, England is so big,
:41:40. > :41:45.how do you resolve the question of devolution in England? Many will ask
:41:46. > :41:48.what does it mean for England. People in England must understand
:41:49. > :41:56.they are part of the partnership as well and that is why this week
:41:57. > :41:58.coming we will have the Labour Party Constitutional Convention in Cardiff
:41:59. > :42:01.looking at what it means in the 21st century to have governments in
:42:02. > :42:03.Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland and what it means for
:42:04. > :42:05.English regional governments. Now, as Carwyn Jones
:42:06. > :42:07.was saying there, some major names in Labour -
:42:08. > :42:09.past and present, including Scottish Labour leader
:42:10. > :42:12.Kezia Dugdale and former Prime Minister Gordon Brown -
:42:13. > :42:14.will meet in Cardiff this week Scotland's only Labour MP
:42:15. > :42:32.Ian Murray is in our Edinburgh Good morning. Good morning. You said
:42:33. > :42:38.in your speech to the Labour Party, the Scottish Labour Party Conference
:42:39. > :42:43.a few weeks ago that the SNP has absolutely no mandate for another
:42:44. > :42:47.independence referendum. Given it says in black and white in the
:42:48. > :42:53.manifesto that they have, what were you talking about? Well, it is quite
:42:54. > :42:57.clear that in 2014, 80 5% of the Scottish population voted in the
:42:58. > :43:02.independence referendum and 55% voted to remain as part of the UK.
:43:03. > :43:06.What it said in the SNP manifesto is that they would ask for the power to
:43:07. > :43:09.call another referendum should there be a material change in
:43:10. > :43:14.circumstances and this is what this debate is about, it is about how the
:43:15. > :43:17.UK manages itself any constitutional sense post-Brexit and that is what
:43:18. > :43:23.Carwyn Jones has just said, we must deal with the English question...
:43:24. > :43:31.But even from how you have just described the SNP manifesto, they
:43:32. > :43:33.clearly have a mandate. The boat on Wednesday for the Scottish
:43:34. > :43:37.Parliament comes up then and they have to get the powers to call a
:43:38. > :43:40.second independence referendum. We should take this off the table, I do
:43:41. > :43:43.not think that the Scottish people wanted at the moment and the polls
:43:44. > :43:47.have shown consistently that the Scottish people do not wanted and I
:43:48. > :43:54.think the way that Carwyn Jones, Sadiq Khan and Kezia Dugdale
:43:55. > :43:57.talking... I understand that you do not want another referendum and I
:43:58. > :44:01.understand you think it does not address the main issue, the point I
:44:02. > :44:04.am getting at is that, you know, we operate in politics with the idea
:44:05. > :44:09.that party say things in the manifesto and then get elected, they
:44:10. > :44:13.then have a mandate to do that, you seem to be questioning that of the
:44:14. > :44:16.SNP. Well, if it is about people going with their manifesto
:44:17. > :44:20.commitments, surely the Green Party will not support the SNP on Tuesday
:44:21. > :44:23.when it comes to the port in the Scottish Parliament because they had
:44:24. > :44:27.a plethora of things in the manifesto that would trigger a
:44:28. > :44:31.second independence referendum, one being 1 million signatures, that is
:44:32. > :44:36.clearly not the case. There is no mandate to bring forward another
:44:37. > :44:40.independence referendum when we have already had 85% voting just a few
:44:41. > :44:43.years ago and what was classed as a once in a lifetime, generation
:44:44. > :44:45.opportunity for Scotland to have independence and we should not bring
:44:46. > :44:50.that uncertainty about the Scottish economy. That is what is important.
:44:51. > :44:55.Should the Scottish Parliament vote on Tuesday for a Section 30 order or
:44:56. > :45:00.another referendum, does that mean there is a mandate for another
:45:01. > :45:04.referendum? That depends on what you look at in terms of the Scottish
:45:05. > :45:07.Parliament's mandate. The Scottish Parliament will have voted but the
:45:08. > :45:10.Parliament has voted in the last year against fracking, against the
:45:11. > :45:15.SNP's Management of education, against cuts to the NHS and the
:45:16. > :45:18.First Minister has completely ignored those. It seems only six
:45:19. > :45:22.occasions that the government has been defeated at the Scottish
:45:23. > :45:25.Parliament, the First Minister has ignored that. The mandate for the
:45:26. > :45:31.Scottish Parliament appears to only suit them at certain times.
:45:32. > :45:35.Westminster should not be blocking, however, another referendum in
:45:36. > :45:39.Scotland, but the timing of that and when it should happen is the key
:45:40. > :45:45.component. Jeremy Corbyn was interviewed by Robert Preston this
:45:46. > :45:50.morning. He said of the timing that it could not be worse and implied
:45:51. > :45:54.that his position seems similar to that of Theresa May's which is I am
:45:55. > :45:57.not ruling out a referendum, it should not be entirely blocked by
:45:58. > :46:04.Westminster but you are not having one at the moment. Presumably on
:46:05. > :46:07.this issue, you and Jeremy Corbyn would agree with each other. Our
:46:08. > :46:10.position is exactly seen as the majority of the Scottish people who
:46:11. > :46:13.do not want another independence referendum. We are also saying that
:46:14. > :46:16.if Brexit is going to bring uncertainty to the country, which
:46:17. > :46:21.undoubtedly it will and studies have shown it well in terms of the
:46:22. > :46:27.economy, in terms of the way that post-Brexit Button looks, we should
:46:28. > :46:29.not compound that uncertainty with another independence referendum that
:46:30. > :46:33.has been made clear by the Fraser of an -- which has been made clear by
:46:34. > :46:37.the Fraser of Allander Institute last week that that would certainly
:46:38. > :46:41.be the case. If there is another referendum at some point, what
:46:42. > :46:46.should be on the paper? There was some talk actual conference that
:46:47. > :46:49.perhaps your idea of a federal duty or some variant of it should be on
:46:50. > :46:54.perhaps your idea of a federal duty the ballot paper. Actually, the
:46:55. > :46:56.discussions are much more nuanced than that in terms of where we
:46:57. > :47:01.currently are in this particular process. We will have to speak in
:47:02. > :47:06.Wales, we will have Carwyn Jones, Kezia Dugdale, Gordon Brown, the
:47:07. > :47:13.Shadow Welsh Secretary Christina Rees, Andy Burnham who is standing
:47:14. > :47:17.in Manchester, another candidate in Merseyside and a host of people in
:47:18. > :47:19.England who will be looking at how we should plan the constitutional
:47:20. > :47:22.settlement in the post-Brexit Briton, that is an incredibly
:47:23. > :47:26.important step forward because breaking up the UK is not in the
:47:27. > :47:31.best interest of either the UK or Scotland, so we need another
:47:32. > :47:34.formulation of pixels forward as to what a post-Brexit Briton looks
:47:35. > :47:37.like. This is an exciting way to do it and it is great that Kezia
:47:38. > :47:40.Dugdale has brought this forward and that everyone else has bought into
:47:41. > :47:43.it but we have to develop that process as to what it means and let
:47:44. > :47:48.people into that process, which is very important. I come back to the
:47:49. > :47:52.point, would you support having that, what you have just described,
:47:53. > :47:55.whatever comes out of it, as an option, if there is another
:47:56. > :47:59.independence referendum at some point? It is too early to say on
:48:00. > :48:03.this particular issues, this is a process that will run through all
:48:04. > :48:06.for a fairly medium to long term period of time because it is about
:48:07. > :48:13.having a People's Convention, letting the people into this process
:48:14. > :48:17.as to how they want a post-Brexit process to be governed. It could
:48:18. > :48:21.look at the voting system, a very clear way of looking at a
:48:22. > :48:24.post-Brexit Briton. This is not just a Scottish issue, this is about
:48:25. > :48:30.dealing with 85% of the country which is England and making sure
:48:31. > :48:34.that Scottish devolution, demolition and Wales and Northern Ireland all
:48:35. > :48:40.come together under an agreement. I understand that on Tuesday they will
:48:41. > :48:43.decide regards whether they should be another referendum but it does
:48:44. > :48:46.not necessarily mean but if you want independence or not. It is too early
:48:47. > :48:52.to have that kind of discussion, I am not sure whether the Section 30
:48:53. > :48:57.order discussions will include any other option other than EDS or No
:48:58. > :49:03.vote, or to remain or leave. We need to concentrate on what we can offer
:49:04. > :49:06.the Scottish people in terms of, and also the English, Welsh and Northern
:49:07. > :49:10.Irish people, in terms of what this agreement means. It is people coming
:49:11. > :49:12.together in Wales next week and there is a fundamental
:49:13. > :49:15.transformation of the way that the UK works, we are coming together to
:49:16. > :49:21.discuss what works best for the regions and nations of the UK to
:49:22. > :49:24.make sure that a post-Brexit Button works for everyone and that the four
:49:25. > :49:27.nations work together as a family. If what you have just described to
:49:28. > :49:31.us is to be credible as an alternative to the proposals of the
:49:32. > :49:34.SNP, there must be some credible prospect of a Labour government
:49:35. > :49:40.coming along to implement it, whether it be at Westminster or
:49:41. > :49:45.Edinburgh or both. You seem so disunited at the moment. Again, when
:49:46. > :49:49.Jeremy Corbyn was here a few weeks ago, it took him a few days to get
:49:50. > :49:57.the lines right on your attitude to a referendum, you tweeted out, and
:49:58. > :50:02.you get -- you did not just tell us can ever made you what our position
:50:03. > :50:05.is, you said why he would not be joining Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow
:50:06. > :50:10.Cabinet, he has given a good example, he is destroying the Labour
:50:11. > :50:14.Party. How can anyone watching this take seriously the right gear that
:50:15. > :50:17.Labour will deliver a federal Britain when you cannot even be
:50:18. > :50:22.civil to your own party leader when he is addressing your own party
:50:23. > :50:25.conference? You have to look at what is happening next week, the entire
:50:26. > :50:33.Labour families coming together the Shadow Welsh Secretary is meeting at
:50:34. > :50:38.the UK level. Kezia Dugdale, Carwyn Jones, they are all coming together.
:50:39. > :50:41.Why did you send that that tweet? The Labour family is coming
:50:42. > :50:46.together... But why did you send out that tweet? Jeremy Corbyn has
:50:47. > :50:51.clarified his position with regards to what he said... You said he was
:50:52. > :50:55.destroying the Labour Party, is he destroying the Labour Party? I have
:50:56. > :51:00.destroying the Labour Party, is he consistently said, Gordon, on your
:51:01. > :51:03.show and many others that the public decide who the leaders are of
:51:04. > :51:07.political parties because they decide at the ballot box and that
:51:08. > :51:09.elections and the approval ratings of Jeremy Corbyn are not
:51:10. > :51:14.particularly positive and he has to come forward but the strategy, along
:51:15. > :51:17.with his colleagues in parliament in the Labour Party. I look forward to
:51:18. > :51:21.seeing that the strategy of which these discussions of a federal
:51:22. > :51:30.post-Brexit Briton are part of that strategy because it is equally
:51:31. > :51:33.exciting time to look at what powers the regions and nations of the UK
:51:34. > :51:35.can get. This is the basic problem that you have, I'm afraid. Saying
:51:36. > :51:38.that you would encourage Jeremy Corbyn to come up with the strategy
:51:39. > :51:42.is not the same thing as saying, as you said at the time, he was in
:51:43. > :51:46.Scotland addressing a conference. This man is destroying the Labour
:51:47. > :51:50.Party. Well, he got it wrong and he has clarified his position. We are
:51:51. > :51:54.on the same page now in terms of where we are for our attitude to a
:51:55. > :51:57.second independence referendum and I cannot understand why they cannot
:51:58. > :52:01.get into a conversation about positive this federal agenda could
:52:02. > :52:06.possibly be. The entire Labour families coming together, it is
:52:07. > :52:09.unprecedented, next week in Cardiff, to look at what we can do in terms
:52:10. > :52:13.of the constitutional settlement across the whole UK post-Brexit.
:52:14. > :52:16.That is the entire family coming together with the positive strategy
:52:17. > :52:21.for the future that Jeremy is driving forward with members of the
:52:22. > :52:24.Shadow Cabinet being represented. That is a positive unifying thing
:52:25. > :52:28.that we can take forward with great enthusiasm and I am delighted that
:52:29. > :52:36.Jeremy is back. This sounds wonderful. I assume you will now
:52:37. > :52:41.agreed to become shadow Scottish Secretary? I have not agreed that
:52:42. > :52:43.and I would have to have a long conversation with Jeremy Corbyn.
:52:44. > :52:46.and I would have to have a long Would you consider it? Of course, I
:52:47. > :52:51.have never ruled that out. But we must look at the big issues and I am
:52:52. > :52:54.involved in these processes such as federalism, I will win the Scottish
:52:55. > :52:57.Labour Party Conference and having working" Carwyn Jones, Gordon Brown
:52:58. > :53:03.and John Prescott on taking some of this forward with Kezia Dugdale. We
:53:04. > :53:11.are all involved in this particular process, the semantics in terms of
:53:12. > :53:13.where we are going post-Brexit are minor in terms of the fact that we
:53:14. > :53:16.have an exciting opportunity post-Brexit. We will have to leave
:53:17. > :53:31.it there, thank you for joining us, Ian Murray.
:53:32. > :53:31.But Holyrood's Environment Committee says that an alarming distrust
:53:32. > :53:32.were tensions between some groups on the Partnership For Action
:53:33. > :53:36.The SNP MSP Graeme Dey is the committee's convenor
:53:37. > :54:08.and I spoke to him just before we came on air.
:54:09. > :54:25.First of all you have written this letter to Roseanna Cunningham saying
:54:26. > :54:28.you are concerned about protecting wildlife because the various groups
:54:29. > :54:31.involved don't seem to get on with each other or agree with each other.
:54:32. > :54:38.Explain briefly if you could, what the problem is? This is not a new
:54:39. > :54:41.problem. Essentially there is attention and suspicion among some
:54:42. > :54:47.of the groups, we need to work together to this issue. The point
:54:48. > :54:53.the committee is making is that they need to be prepared to call operate
:54:54. > :55:00.more fully with each other and Police Scotland. But the RSPB is one
:55:01. > :55:07.organisation that has admitted it is not following the protocols that are
:55:08. > :55:10.agreed. It is quoted in your letter, is that lets say a raptor is a
:55:11. > :55:14.legally killed or trapped, they are not going to go straight to the big
:55:15. > :55:16.house as they put it and say, we are investigating theirs. Because it
:55:17. > :55:23.would alert, it could have been the egg house that was responsible, it
:55:24. > :55:29.could alert them that the courts of the raptor. They see, call operate,
:55:30. > :55:32.could alert them that the courts of yes, but up to a point? Yes. On one
:55:33. > :55:35.level you can understand where they are coming from. But this language
:55:36. > :55:41.and approach is not helpful. The way we have worked up until now hasn't
:55:42. > :55:48.addressed the problem. The protocols are there to help bring about the
:55:49. > :55:59.change. The danger of course is if the RS PPE persist with this
:56:00. > :56:05.approach, you may find that the landowners, the gamekeepers use this
:56:06. > :56:08.as a reason or excuse to walk away from it all. That would be
:56:09. > :56:11.unhelpful. We are not just pointing the finger at the RSPB. If you look
:56:12. > :56:13.at the SGA, the landowners. It is great we are seeing more condemning
:56:14. > :56:15.as such activities but we need more cooperation with Police Scotland,
:56:16. > :56:19.proactive wobbler oration to move forward on this. If I was the RSPB,
:56:20. > :56:21.I would say that is all very well. But what you are saying that just
:56:22. > :56:23.because the landowners and gamekeepers agree to have meetings,
:56:24. > :56:26.that means we should not investigate them properly. That is not what we
:56:27. > :56:31.are seeing that at all. This is an unacceptable practice. They do not
:56:32. > :56:33.want to alert the people who made quite possibly have been
:56:34. > :56:36.responsible. That is what they are saying. That is the point they make.
:56:37. > :56:38.The question here is how do we move forward. What do we need to tackle
:56:39. > :57:01.this? There are a lot of additional resources needed to the Police
:57:02. > :57:03.Scotland and Crown Office to get raptor prosecution. There is a lot
:57:04. > :57:06.of other wildlife crime, a lot of different types. The point the
:57:07. > :57:09.committee is making, and it may be simplistic on one level, we cannot
:57:10. > :57:11.have this constant tension and battling between these sectors. We
:57:12. > :57:17.did appear to be making progress and a year, 18 months ago. We appear to
:57:18. > :57:20.be taking a step back now. There is no point interesting, we need to
:57:21. > :57:26.work together. Is it just the RSPB or are there other bodies at odds
:57:27. > :57:32.with each other? I think the kind of tension around raptor persecution is
:57:33. > :57:35.the main area of difficulties. We have seen, for example, as well,
:57:36. > :57:42.Scottish badgers have had an issue with Police Scotland whereby they
:57:43. > :57:44.would assert that there were 40 claims in a particular period but
:57:45. > :57:47.yet only five have been recorded as such. However, those two groups,
:57:48. > :58:05.Police Scotland and Scottish badgers are
:58:06. > :58:09.working together very well since the committee have been session in last
:58:10. > :58:11.year. I think there is a will there amongst most of the stakeholders to
:58:12. > :58:15.work together and work with Police Scotland. I think everyone wants to
:58:16. > :58:22.tackle those, I think we need to have a different approach. I accept
:58:23. > :58:24.the point is that the RSPB are making and you are making today,
:58:25. > :58:30.what else do we need to do to move forward with this? Something like a
:58:31. > :58:32.third of alleged wildlife crime is in fact poaching. Many people, again
:58:33. > :58:35.as you acknowledge and the letter, many people will see that as a claim
:58:36. > :58:38.against property. It has nothing to do with wildlife protection. It is
:58:39. > :58:45.whether the salmon is Cobb I approach which would otherwise be
:58:46. > :58:52.cot by a gamekeeper. -- cot by a butcher. Wildlife crime is wildlife
:58:53. > :58:54.crime. I think it is indicative of the challenges that are faced in
:58:55. > :59:07.crime. I think it is indicative of tackling these issues. This figure
:59:08. > :59:14.for 2014-15, 121 poaching claims. 58% of those resulted in a
:59:15. > :59:17.conviction. I think the point there is the is where you have a good
:59:18. > :59:28.example of cooperation between Gillies and Police Scotland. These
:59:29. > :59:28.are difficult crimes to address and that
:59:29. > :59:42.is why the best approach we have got is
:59:43. > :59:43.everyone working together. And the public drawing attention to police.
:59:44. > :59:45.One of the groups which is tasked with preventing wildlife
:59:46. > :59:49.Its head of investigations is Ian Thomson and he's
:59:50. > :00:08.RSPB has welcomed many initiatives brought forward by various Scottish
:00:09. > :00:10.governments. We are a long-standing partner and one of the founder
:00:11. > :00:11.governments. We are a long-standing members. What he is getting at is
:00:12. > :00:19.that you admitted before his committee that you have not be the
:00:20. > :00:31.protocols that were laid down by this pause organisation. To be
:00:32. > :00:43.honest we are being represented there. There is a satellite protocol
:00:44. > :00:46.that says that if a bird goes down, the organisations monitoring that
:00:47. > :00:49.animals should have ordered. But it was saying that you might be
:00:50. > :00:57.informing landowners who were responsible. What the protocol is a
:00:58. > :00:58.dispensation as the circumstances of our bird disappearing or at all
:00:59. > :01:50.suspicious, FA board goes down in suspicious
:01:51. > :01:54.circumstances, what the protocol says is that landowners should not
:01:55. > :01:58.be informed. We are following the protocols to the letter, so I am
:01:59. > :02:02.actually disappointed that the committee have got the impression
:02:03. > :02:09.that we are doing otherwise. What is it you think that they want you to
:02:10. > :02:13.do? I think they want us to follow the protocol. The protocol is
:02:14. > :02:17.currently up for review in that it was written back in 2013 and all the
:02:18. > :02:23.Paws partners on the group have submitted their comments to the
:02:24. > :02:28.secretariat and we will discuss what the actual protocol needs changed.
:02:29. > :02:32.But the protocol clearly states that when the board goes down, the first
:02:33. > :02:37.thing that should happen is that the police must be notified. We are
:02:38. > :02:41.running out of time. Is this problem, particularly with birds of
:02:42. > :02:45.prey, is it getting worse or better in your view because the data seemed
:02:46. > :02:51.to be unclear for reasons that remain somewhat mysterious? We
:02:52. > :02:56.should not be too fixated on a body count, what we have to go back is
:02:57. > :02:58.the population surveys and the science. That is very clearly
:02:59. > :03:03.the population surveys and the showing that over the extensive
:03:04. > :03:06.areas of uplands, particularly in areas managed for intensive crows
:03:07. > :03:13.shooting, boards like the golden eagle, hen harrier and the red Kite
:03:14. > :03:20.continued to do very badly. It is difficult to establish annual trends
:03:21. > :03:23.because the strands are finding a dead bird are very minimal. -- the
:03:24. > :03:27.trends. We will have to be it there, thank you for joining us.
:03:28. > :03:29.Time to look back, and forwards to the next seven days,
:03:30. > :03:34.Now before we speak to our guests, the terrorist attack in London
:03:35. > :03:36.on Wednesday has inevitably dominated the week's news.
:03:37. > :03:39.It comes just a few months after the UK Government gained
:03:40. > :03:41.enhanced spying powers in the form of the Investigatory Powers Act.
:03:42. > :03:44.This morning the Home Secretary said that messaging
:03:45. > :03:48.With the pressure on to prevent future attacks, where does
:03:49. > :03:50.the balance now lie between security and civil liberties?
:03:51. > :04:05.A ruthless attack right at the heart of our depth -- democratic
:04:06. > :04:09.institutions. It took just a few minutes for one man armed with just
:04:10. > :04:16.a car and a knife to demonstrate just how vulnerable our cities can
:04:17. > :04:17.be. Hundreds of people witnessed the events, including this journalist
:04:18. > :04:23.who was attending a security conference. We were half way through
:04:24. > :04:26.the afternoon session, indeed, one of the speakers at that precise
:04:27. > :04:30.point in time was talking about the radicalisation process ironically,
:04:31. > :04:33.when the proceedings were interrupted and we were ushered Stal
:04:34. > :04:38.Mr by armed response police officers. David reports on conflicts
:04:39. > :04:42.around the world, he has said that a number of fatalities from terror
:04:43. > :04:45.attacks in Western Europe remain small and although he thinks it is
:04:46. > :04:50.correct to look at civil liberties with a fresh eye, he is wary of the
:04:51. > :04:56.UK following some other countries' leads. In Europe, in Western Europe,
:04:57. > :04:59.many governments such as France and Belgium, the greater controls there
:05:00. > :05:02.at the moment and yes, there has been a lot of opposition amongst the
:05:03. > :05:06.population towards those increased controls. In other parts of the
:05:07. > :05:11.world it is a lot more heavy-handed. We are talking about places like
:05:12. > :05:17.Turkey or further afield into the Middle East itself. In an era of
:05:18. > :05:21.European peace, few countries have been left untouched white terrorist
:05:22. > :05:28.attacks. This was the attack on Glasgow Airport ten years ago.
:05:29. > :05:32.Nobody knows what's going on. It is no secret that the mood music has
:05:33. > :05:39.changed from Europe. Life does go on but we are aware of Iraqi threat.
:05:40. > :05:43.Our cities are full of memorials to the armies that fought the battle is
:05:44. > :05:49.for Britain over the centuries. But fighting that takes place within our
:05:50. > :05:51.cities is often unexpected. Despite the shock of sudden violence, we
:05:52. > :05:57.should try to keep things in perspective, says this philosopher.
:05:58. > :06:03.I think the amount of focus that has been put on attacks like the
:06:04. > :06:05.Westminster attack, which although, of course, very serious and the
:06:06. > :06:11.profound tragedy for those involved and for the families of those
:06:12. > :06:14.involved, involved a man killing four people and I think it is
:06:15. > :06:19.important to get that into proportion. And we should take a
:06:20. > :06:25.lesson from past security clamp-downs, such as in Northern
:06:26. > :06:29.Ireland. It was internment, for example, that much I do know and
:06:30. > :06:33.that seems like a serious violation of civil liberties and the points
:06:34. > :06:38.that I have made... But they did it work, that is the point? It is not
:06:39. > :06:45.clear to me that it did work. I think that actions such as that
:06:46. > :06:48.contributed. It is very hard to know what the counterfactual is, in other
:06:49. > :06:51.words, it is difficult to know how things would have turned out had
:06:52. > :06:55.that not been done. It can seem obvious to some that it did work
:06:56. > :07:00.because potentially dangerous people were put behind bars but that is not
:07:01. > :07:03.all that we need to take into account in a sensible assessment as
:07:04. > :07:08.to whether it works, the effect it would have had on the Republican
:07:09. > :07:12.national population in Northern Ireland would also need to be taken
:07:13. > :07:16.into account. One of the government's current weapons in the
:07:17. > :07:21.fight against terrorism is the Investigatory Powers Act, dubbed
:07:22. > :07:24.this diverse charter. It became law three months ago along for Bolt
:07:25. > :07:27.interception of private communications. The public are not
:07:28. > :07:32.aware of is ramifications see some campaigners. Mass surveillance time
:07:33. > :07:35.and again has been proven to not prevent attacks such as what
:07:36. > :07:39.happened on Wednesday. What works is targeted surveillance where you have
:07:40. > :07:43.someone in mind, you have activity that they are doing, it could be
:07:44. > :07:47.criminal activity, anything, but it is actually targeted and when the
:07:48. > :07:51.resources go into that it is much better. Campaigners have launched a
:07:52. > :07:53.legal challenge to the enhanced by powers of the government but they do
:07:54. > :07:56.not know just how much public support they can tap into.
:07:57. > :08:00.So, with me this week is the former Labour MP
:08:01. > :08:02.Gemma Doyle and Richard Walker, the founding and consulting
:08:03. > :08:14.Gemma you were in Parliament when this happened, please tell us about
:08:15. > :08:19.it. Yes, I was about to walk out of Carriage Gate through the turnstile
:08:20. > :08:25.when I saw smoke, which I assumed was perhaps an explosion in
:08:26. > :08:29.Westminster Tube because that will it look like it was coming from. I
:08:30. > :08:34.stopped with my colleague to see what was actually happening and then
:08:35. > :08:37.saw people running and screaming. Then the commotion at the gate,
:08:38. > :08:44.which was the attacker coming through. He was armed with knives.
:08:45. > :08:51.Were you one of the people who was effectively kept in the area for
:08:52. > :08:56.several hours? Indeed, we heard, because of how close we were to
:08:57. > :09:03.Carriage Gate, we did not have a particularly good view and when I
:09:04. > :09:07.heard the gunshots I assumed it was an attacker with a gun, so I took my
:09:08. > :09:14.colleague and ran into the building and did not stop and told the... And
:09:15. > :09:21.be gotten into the chapel, because I thought it would be safe. Parliament
:09:22. > :09:26.moved over to Westminster Abbey and came out about eight o'clock that
:09:27. > :09:29.evening and I just have to say how enormously grateful I think all of
:09:30. > :09:34.us who were in the building that the are two PC Keith Palmer, who stood
:09:35. > :09:40.in front of a man with two knives and prevented him from getting any
:09:41. > :09:46.father. My condolences are with his family. Richard, the debate this
:09:47. > :09:50.morning is now turning to one about what could have been done, if
:09:51. > :09:54.anything, to stop this. Particularly the suggestion that the Home
:09:55. > :10:02.Secretary, Amber Rudd, who said earlier that these things like
:10:03. > :10:06.WhatsApp, which may be that Khalid Masood perhaps used before the
:10:07. > :10:09.attack, they are encrypted, she is suggesting that there should be some
:10:10. > :10:22.sort of access so that we know what is going on, what do you make of it.
:10:23. > :10:24.That is correct, but you do not want to impose Draconian measures on
:10:25. > :10:29.members of the public or undermine the democratic society and that we
:10:30. > :10:34.do the work of the terrorists for them. We must make sure that the
:10:35. > :10:39.rights of people to privacy are protected and I think while there is
:10:40. > :10:45.absolutely a case for maybe allowing security forces to look at some
:10:46. > :10:49.messages, I do not think it is a valid argument to allow Evelyn's
:10:50. > :10:53.messages to be open to slippers, for instance. I do not think that is the
:10:54. > :11:01.way to go, that is a dangerous development. Gemma Doyle, what do
:11:02. > :11:06.you think, I did a quick poll in the office and many of us your views
:11:07. > :11:11.WhatsApp, you can share messages, that is why they do it, she messages
:11:12. > :11:13.in groups, but is there an argument for saying that should not be
:11:14. > :11:18.encrypted with the kind of extremely high security that is currently
:11:19. > :11:23.used? I think the security services should have access to all of the
:11:24. > :11:27.communications that they need to be able to keep us safe. The real
:11:28. > :11:33.challenge and the thing that our security services are very, very
:11:34. > :11:37.good at is disrupting networks and stopping attacks before they happen
:11:38. > :11:42.and many people actually are surprised that we have not had an
:11:43. > :11:46.attack like we saw this week in recent years and that is because of
:11:47. > :11:50.how good our security services are at stopping these attacks. But to do
:11:51. > :11:55.that they need to have the powers to look at things like services like
:11:56. > :11:58.WhatsApp. I use it, lots of people use it and I want the police and our
:11:59. > :12:04.security services to have those powers. Quick change of subject, the
:12:05. > :12:07.vote on independence in the Scottish Parliament this week. I was not sure
:12:08. > :12:12.what Ian Murray was saying, he seemed to suggest that because
:12:13. > :12:15.partly because the Greens had it in the manifesto and have not followed
:12:16. > :12:21.other things that it was not legitimate. Clearly does not come as
:12:22. > :12:24.a surprise to anybody that the Green Party are supporters of
:12:25. > :12:29.independence, they were in the first independence campaign. But the
:12:30. > :12:36.argument is that they did not have it in the manifesto and the
:12:37. > :12:42.entitlement for the -- the entire admin for the SNP is that the debt
:12:43. > :12:49.habit in the years. I think it is utterly unreasonable to argue that
:12:50. > :12:54.they do not have a mandate for this. The SNP have huge support for a
:12:55. > :12:57.referendum. It is in their manifesto, they have huge support in
:12:58. > :13:03.the country and it is ridiculous to suggest there is no mandate for it.
:13:04. > :13:09.Gemma Doyle, your party, your ex-party, it will have to get its
:13:10. > :13:12.act together. Ian Murray is treating one minute that Jeremy Corbyn is
:13:13. > :13:15.destroying the Labour Party then trying to claim that it is all
:13:16. > :13:21.absolutely fabulous because they are having a meeting in Cardiff, that
:13:22. > :13:25.seems more Monty Python than serious politics, is it not? It is still my
:13:26. > :13:29.party, just to clarify and Ian Murray is a huge asset to the Labour
:13:30. > :13:33.Party in Scotland, whether he is the Shadow Secretary of State or not.
:13:34. > :13:39.Look, there is no doubt there have been challenges to what Jeremy
:13:40. > :13:43.Corbyn had said. But the point is that, insults like this, he did not
:13:44. > :13:46.have to put out that street, he could have just said, this is our
:13:47. > :13:50.position. People like Ian Murray will not have said something like
:13:51. > :13:53.that likely, there is a problem with the Bidisha in the Labour Party at
:13:54. > :13:56.the moment. Unfortunately we are out of time.
:13:57. > :14:00.I'll be back at the same time next week.