:00:35. > :00:37.It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:38. > :00:40.Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four
:00:41. > :00:43.extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up
:00:44. > :00:45.to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just
:00:46. > :00:51.Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -
:00:52. > :00:53.how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger
:00:54. > :01:00.I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.
:01:01. > :01:04.And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first
:01:05. > :01:08.round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact
:01:09. > :01:11.on the EU and Brexit of this most unpredictable of contests?
:01:12. > :01:12.Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland -
:01:13. > :01:15.As the campaign hots up already, we'll talk to the SNP's leader
:01:16. > :01:32.at Westminster and three of the opposition parties.
:01:33. > :01:39.And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap
:01:40. > :01:43.general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and
:01:44. > :01:43.brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly
:01:44. > :01:47.Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this
:01:48. > :01:49.morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank
:01:50. > :01:51.holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints
:01:52. > :01:54.of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be
:01:55. > :02:00.getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this
:02:01. > :02:05.morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister
:02:06. > :02:07.if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike
:02:08. > :02:10.on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,
:02:11. > :02:14.give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,
:02:15. > :02:16.tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you
:02:17. > :02:26.would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back
:02:27. > :02:28.to the whole point? Is the objective
:02:29. > :02:32.to start more strikes that may kill many innocent
:02:33. > :02:34.people, as has happened? Do you think killing
:02:35. > :02:36.the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not
:02:37. > :02:45.being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender
:02:46. > :02:47.in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that
:02:48. > :02:51.the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of
:02:52. > :02:55.Isis. So you've got to think
:02:56. > :03:01.about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his
:03:02. > :03:06.reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been
:03:07. > :03:10.freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of
:03:11. > :03:13.questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause
:03:14. > :03:18.to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut
:03:19. > :03:21.straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the
:03:22. > :03:24.letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister
:03:25. > :03:30.when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --
:03:31. > :03:33.or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he
:03:34. > :03:37.should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines
:03:38. > :03:41.and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question
:03:42. > :03:45.so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make
:03:46. > :03:50.these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or
:03:51. > :03:55.damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the
:03:56. > :03:58.sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's
:03:59. > :04:02.going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they
:04:03. > :04:05.will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't
:04:06. > :04:12.press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to
:04:13. > :04:15.deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think
:04:16. > :04:21.most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the
:04:22. > :04:25.country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would
:04:26. > :04:30.consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been
:04:31. > :04:32.on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's
:04:33. > :04:36.campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr
:04:37. > :04:40.let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or
:04:41. > :04:43.SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral
:04:44. > :04:49.damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the
:04:50. > :04:53.assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral
:04:54. > :04:56.damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the
:04:57. > :05:02.question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,
:05:03. > :05:05.the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It
:05:06. > :05:08.turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to
:05:09. > :05:12.be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about
:05:13. > :05:17.Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but
:05:18. > :05:18.not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course
:05:19. > :05:22.not have any nukes on them which is the Labour Party were forced soon
:05:23. > :05:27.after that interview to put out a statement saying it is Labour Party
:05:28. > :05:31.policy to renew Trident. So where are we? Do we know what the party's
:05:32. > :05:37.policy is? It is to renew Trident but he has started this review which
:05:38. > :05:41.involves looking at it all again. We know he is a unilateralist to start
:05:42. > :05:45.with but whether he can force this through is dubious. Does it matter,
:05:46. > :05:50.though, if the party policy is in favour of Trident, if the leader is
:05:51. > :05:54.not? The potential Prime Minister is not? They split three ways when they
:05:55. > :05:57.went to vote on it in the Commons. The party agreed they were
:05:58. > :06:02.pro-Trident and when it came to the vote they split three ways. I think
:06:03. > :06:07.it's difficult for them, it's always been a really difficult issue for
:06:08. > :06:11.Labour. The question is whether you want to seal off your negatives,
:06:12. > :06:14.whether you really want to try and reach out to people. There are an
:06:15. > :06:19.awful lot of people who will like what he said, there are an awful lot
:06:20. > :06:22.of people that think we have been involved in terrible wars, we have
:06:23. > :06:27.wasted a lot of money and blood and let's just get back from the whole
:06:28. > :06:30.thing, let's retreat from the world and not try punching above our
:06:31. > :06:33.weight. There is something to be said for that and it is a reasonable
:06:34. > :06:38.argument. He's been true to himself on this. I think he is and Polly is
:06:39. > :06:41.right, lots of people will agree with him, not enough to win a
:06:42. > :06:46.general election, the latest ComRes poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour
:06:47. > :06:49.on 25 and as my colleague James Forsyth in the Spectator said if
:06:50. > :06:52.this was a boxing match it would have been stopped by now by the
:06:53. > :06:54.revelry. We are not stopping, we are going on.
:06:55. > :06:56.So the political parties have had to move into election mode
:06:57. > :07:00.Stand by for battle buses, mail shots and your social media
:07:01. > :07:01.timeline being bombarded by political propoganda.
:07:02. > :07:07.But none of this comes cheap - Adam's been doing his sums.
:07:08. > :07:12.Democracy is priceless but those planes, trains and automobiles used
:07:13. > :07:14.in the last election cost money and we know exactly how much,
:07:15. > :07:20.thanks to the Electoral Commission database.
:07:21. > :07:24.The Conservatives flew David Cameron to every part of the UK in one day
:07:25. > :07:30.on a private plane costing ?29,000, in-flight meals extra.
:07:31. > :07:36.They shelled out ?1.2 million for adverts on Facebook.
:07:37. > :07:40.The most expensive item was their election guru Lynton Crosby.
:07:41. > :07:43.They bought ?2.4 million worth of advice and research from his firm
:07:44. > :07:50.Labour's biggest expenditure was on good old-fashioned leaflets,
:07:51. > :07:52.costing ?7.4 million to print and deliver.
:07:53. > :07:58.Hope they didn't go straight into the recycling.
:07:59. > :08:06.Cheap for all the enjoyment it gave us.
:08:07. > :08:09.To turn a normal minibus into Harriet Harman's pink bus
:08:10. > :08:15.Nick Clegg toured the country doing all manner of stunts transported
:08:16. > :08:28.although the party got a grand's discount when it broke down.
:08:29. > :08:30.Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage was accompanied by bodyguards
:08:31. > :08:39.Nicola Sturgeon's chopper cost the SNP ?35,450.
:08:40. > :08:43.Plaid Cymru spent just over ?1,000 on media training
:08:44. > :08:57.And the Greens spent ?6,912 promoting their tweets.
:08:58. > :09:01.It adds up to a grand total for all the parties of ?37,560,039.
:09:02. > :09:07.Jabbing at my calculator that works out at less than ?1 per voter.
:09:08. > :09:12.Adam Fleming there - and joining me now is the man
:09:13. > :09:16.responsible for the Conservative election campaigns -
:09:17. > :09:19.for the locals next month and the general election in June -
:09:20. > :09:26.Welcome to the programme. The Crown Prosecution Service is reviewing
:09:27. > :09:29.evidence from 14 police forces that your party breached election
:09:30. > :09:35.spending rules on multiple occasions in the last election. What are you
:09:36. > :09:39.going to do differently this time? Well, the battle buses are part of
:09:40. > :09:45.the National campaign spend. You saw them just on the shot that you did,
:09:46. > :09:48.all three parties had those battle buses so that's why we believe they
:09:49. > :09:53.were part of the national spend and it was declared that way. At least
:09:54. > :09:57.30 people in your party, MPs and agents, being investigated because
:09:58. > :10:00.they may not have been right to include it in the national spend.
:10:01. > :10:04.Are you saying you are going to do nothing differently this time? You
:10:05. > :10:11.asked me about last time and the way the position is... Was. I asked you
:10:12. > :10:15.about this time. We will take a careful count and make sure that
:10:16. > :10:21.everything that we do is within the law. But as I say, the last
:10:22. > :10:25.election, all three parties had battle buses. It is your party that
:10:26. > :10:31.above all has been investigated by 14 police forces. You must surely be
:10:32. > :10:34.taking stock of that and working out how to do some things differently.
:10:35. > :10:39.You are being investigated because you put stuff on the National Ledger
:10:40. > :10:42.which should have been on the local constituency ledger. Are you looking
:10:43. > :10:46.at that again? All of the parties had battle buses and they all put
:10:47. > :10:49.them on their national spend. I don't think any of the parties put
:10:50. > :10:55.them on the local spend. The other battle buses were not full of their
:10:56. > :10:58.party activists. Your party stuffed these battle buses with activists
:10:59. > :11:04.and took them to constituencies. That's the difference. And I ask
:11:05. > :11:09.again, what is different this time? Are you going to run the risk of
:11:10. > :11:12.being investigated yet again? We believe that we fully compliant with
:11:13. > :11:18.the electoral law as it was. What will happen if one of these, or two
:11:19. > :11:21.or three or four or five of these 30 people, Tory MPs, or agents running
:11:22. > :11:27.campaigns are charged during the campaign? As I say I believe we
:11:28. > :11:32.properly declared our election expenses. What happens if they are
:11:33. > :11:34.charged? You asking me a hypothetical question, the
:11:35. > :11:38.importance of this election is about who is in Downing Street in seven
:11:39. > :11:42.weeks' time. Let me clarify this, you maintain that in 2015 you did
:11:43. > :11:46.nothing wrong with how you allocated the cost and the activities of the
:11:47. > :11:50.battle buses and you would do exactly the same this time round?
:11:51. > :11:56.What we did at the last election we believe fully complied with the law.
:11:57. > :11:59.So the battle buses this time, stocked full of activists, will
:12:00. > :12:04.still be charged to the national campaign even when they go to local
:12:05. > :12:10.constituencies? Will they? We will be looking at the way we do it,
:12:11. > :12:16.there is new guidance from the Electoral Commission out and we will
:12:17. > :12:19.look at that guidance. It is not the guidance, it is the lawful stop the
:12:20. > :12:23.Electoral Commission said that, if you look at the report they did on
:12:24. > :12:26.us, they said there was one area where we had over claimed, over
:12:27. > :12:30.declared, and another area we had and declared.
:12:31. > :12:33.We haven't worked out what to do yet, have you?
:12:34. > :12:36.We will get on with the campaign and start the campaign and I'm looking
:12:37. > :12:39.forward to the campaign. I'm trying to work out of the
:12:40. > :12:41.campaign is going to be legal or not because last time it seems it could
:12:42. > :12:45.have been illegal. I am sure the campaign will be
:12:46. > :12:48.legal. You started the campaign warning
:12:49. > :12:52.about the prospect of, the coalition of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a
:12:53. > :13:00.post-election coalition with the SNP and so have the Lib Dems so who is
:13:01. > :13:02.going to be in this coalition? Vince Cable said he was looking
:13:03. > :13:05.towards a possible coalition trying to stop a Conservative government.
:13:06. > :13:11.Is not the leader of the Lib Dems. He's an important voice in the Lib
:13:12. > :13:14.Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see because of the Conservative Party is
:13:15. > :13:17.not re-elected with a strong majority, what will happen? There
:13:18. > :13:21.will be a coalition stopping us doing the things we need to do. Who
:13:22. > :13:26.will be in it? It will be a coalition of the Labour Party, the
:13:27. > :13:30.SNP and the Liberal party. They have ruled it out. I think they would not
:13:31. > :13:32.rule it out if that was the situation. Like Theresa May not
:13:33. > :13:37.ruling out an election and then changing her mind? The things the
:13:38. > :13:40.Prime Minister said were very clear, once she had served Article 50 there
:13:41. > :13:45.was an opportunity, as we know today, there is going to be the
:13:46. > :13:48.start of a new government formed in France and in September we have the
:13:49. > :13:51.German elections. So it was quite right that we didn't get ourselves
:13:52. > :13:57.boxed into a timetable. That is why the Prime Minister took the view
:13:58. > :14:02.that they should be a general election to give her full strength
:14:03. > :14:06.of an electoral mandate when it comes to those negotiations. What
:14:07. > :14:12.about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new bank holidays, good idea? I'm not...
:14:13. > :14:16.If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St we will have a permanent bank
:14:17. > :14:21.holiday of the United Kingdom. We will have fewer bank holidays of
:14:22. > :14:26.most other major nations, most about major wealthy nations. What about at
:14:27. > :14:31.least one more? Well, look, he's talked about four bank holidays.
:14:32. > :14:35.Today would be a bank holiday and next Monday would be a bank holiday
:14:36. > :14:39.and the other week was a bank holiday too. I don't think it's very
:14:40. > :14:43.well thought out. It sounded more to me something like you get in school
:14:44. > :14:46.mock elections rather than proper elections. Your party is the
:14:47. > :14:50.self-styled party of the workers and you have no plans to give the
:14:51. > :14:55.workers even one extra bank holiday? What we want to do is ensure Britain
:14:56. > :14:59.is a strong economy and building on the jobs that we have created since
:15:00. > :15:05.2010. We were told that by reducing public expenditure unemployment in
:15:06. > :15:08.this country would go up, unemployment has gone down and the
:15:09. > :15:12.number of jobs have gone up substantially. But no more bank
:15:13. > :15:16.holidays? Well, we will make our manifesto in due course but I don't
:15:17. > :15:22.think four bank holidays held in April, March and November are very
:15:23. > :15:25.attractive to people. When Ed Miliband as leader of the Labour
:15:26. > :15:35.Party suggested the government should control energy prices by
:15:36. > :15:39.capping them, the Conservatives described that as almost Communist
:15:40. > :15:42.and central planning. Do still take that view? You'll see what we have
:15:43. > :15:48.to say on energy prices. I didn't you about that, I asked you if you
:15:49. > :15:51.take the view... The Prime Minister made a speech at the Conservative
:15:52. > :15:54.Spring conference in which she outlined her dissatisfaction about
:15:55. > :15:56.people who are kept locked on a standard tariff and those are the
:15:57. > :15:58.issues we will address in the next few weeks when the manifesto was
:15:59. > :16:08.published. Would that be an act of communism?
:16:09. > :16:13.You will need to see what we say when we set out the policies. It
:16:14. > :16:19.could be. You could put a Communist act into your manifesto? I don't
:16:20. > :16:22.think you'll find a Communist manifesto in a Conservative
:16:23. > :16:26.manifesto which will be launched... You are planning to control prices?
:16:27. > :16:30.We will address what we think is unfairness in the energy market. Mr
:16:31. > :16:34.Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this morning to sanction a drone strike.
:16:35. > :16:40.You heard us talking about it earlier against the leader of
:16:41. > :16:44.Islamic State if our intelligence services identified him. What would
:16:45. > :16:49.it achieve? When the Prime Minister gets certain advice in the national
:16:50. > :16:53.interests, she has to act been that. We've seen with Theresa May in her
:16:54. > :16:56.time as Home Secretary and Prime Minister, she's not afraid to take
:16:57. > :17:01.those very difficult decisions. What we say this morning from Jeremy
:17:02. > :17:05.Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance. I don't think that serves the
:17:06. > :17:10.country well. What would it achieve if we take out the head of Islamic
:17:11. > :17:16.State he's replaced by somebody else. It brings their organisation
:17:17. > :17:21.into difficulties. It undermines their organisation. It shows we'll
:17:22. > :17:24.take every measure to undo an organisation which has organised
:17:25. > :17:28.terrorism in different parts of Europe, the UK. I think it is
:17:29. > :17:31.absolutely right the Prime Minister is prepared to take those kind of
:17:32. > :17:36.measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he wasn't prepared to take that.
:17:37. > :17:42.Because he wasn't sure what it would achieve. The Obama administration
:17:43. > :17:46.launched hundreds of drone strikes in various war zones and we in the
:17:47. > :17:54.west are still under attack on a regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was
:17:55. > :17:59.what would it achieve? It would achieve a safer position for the UK
:18:00. > :18:02.overall. The war on terrorists. But the Westminster attack, Paris has
:18:03. > :18:07.just been attacked again? There's been attacks which have been stopped
:18:08. > :18:11.by the intelligence services. We must do all we can to support them.
:18:12. > :18:15.The question was about drone strikes. Whether it is drone strikes
:18:16. > :18:21.or other action, we have to be prepared to act. Let's move on to
:18:22. > :18:25.Brexit. It is the major reason the Prime Minister's called the
:18:26. > :18:29.election? Not the only within but the main reason? It is one of the
:18:30. > :18:33.reasons. Now we start the two-year negotiations and then a year
:18:34. > :18:37.afterwards. Also the way in which certain people said they would try
:18:38. > :18:42.to use in the House of Lords or House of Commons to prevent us
:18:43. > :18:47.making progress. I think you'll put in your manifesto, it is the
:18:48. > :18:53.Government's policy, the Brexit negotiating position will be no more
:18:54. > :19:00.freedom of movement. Leave the single market and no longer under
:19:01. > :19:05.the jurisdiction Europe. You expect every Tory MP to fight on that
:19:06. > :19:10.manifesto. What will you do with Ken Clarke and Anna? They will have
:19:11. > :19:13.fought on their manifesto. They will understand the Prime Minister has
:19:14. > :19:17.the authority of the ballot box behind them. Will they fight the
:19:18. > :19:23.election on these positions? I'm sure they'll fight the election
:19:24. > :19:26.supporting the election of a Conservative Government and it's
:19:27. > :19:32.manifesto will quite clearly set out... You know they're against
:19:33. > :19:36.these positions. Ken Clarke has a prod tradition of expressing a
:19:37. > :19:39.certain view. Overall, the party's manifesto, it is not just
:19:40. > :19:43.individuals like Ken Clarke, it is what happens as far as the House of
:19:44. > :19:48.Lords are concerned, people said they'd use the House of Lords to
:19:49. > :19:51.prevent certain measures. You're the party chairman, will it be possible
:19:52. > :19:57.for people like Ken Clarke to fight this election under the Conservative
:19:58. > :20:04.ticket without sub describing to all -- subscribing to all of these
:20:05. > :20:07.Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will fight as Conservative candidates.
:20:08. > :20:12.That wasn't my question. I know that. Will they be allowed to fight
:20:13. > :20:17.it on their own ticket and not subscribe to what is in your
:20:18. > :20:21.manifesto? The manifesto will be what the Conservative Party fights
:20:22. > :20:24.the General Election on. There will always be cases where people have
:20:25. > :20:29.had different views on different parts of the manifesto. That will be
:20:30. > :20:36.the guiding principles for the party. Philip Hammond says your
:20:37. > :20:41.election promises in 2015, in your manifesto not to raise taxes tied
:20:42. > :20:46.his hands when it came to managing the economy. Do you agree with him?
:20:47. > :20:51.No. The simple fact is we have to do the best things for the economy.
:20:52. > :20:56.We'll set out in our manifesto in a few weeks' time, what the policies
:20:57. > :21:00.will be for the next Parliament. Can I clarify, you don't agree with your
:21:01. > :21:04.Chancellor? What Philip was saying was some of the areas we wants to
:21:05. > :21:09.address as Chancellor, what the party will do, it will set out all
:21:10. > :21:13.the issues we're fighting on. It will set out clearly the choice we
:21:14. > :21:17.have in this country. That's the important thing. Let me put the
:21:18. > :21:22.question to you again. Philip Hammond said this week your election
:21:23. > :21:26.promise in 2015 not to raise taxes had tied his hands when it came to
:21:27. > :21:31.managing the economy. I ask you, do you agree with him? You said no.
:21:32. > :21:36.Philip expressed his view as to what he would like. What I'm saying is in
:21:37. > :21:40.a few weeks' time we'll set the manifesto which will set the
:21:41. > :21:45.policies, agreed with the the Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he
:21:46. > :21:49.determine what the economic part of the manifesto is? We'll talk about
:21:50. > :21:54.that in due course. Will you have a lock on the taxes that you locked in
:21:55. > :22:02.2015 on income tax, VAT, national insurance? That will be decided.
:22:03. > :22:06.You'll see that when we publish the manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will
:22:07. > :22:10.you rule out the possibility taxes may have to rise under a future
:22:11. > :22:18.Conservative Party? Conservative Government. We've taken four million
:22:19. > :22:19.people out of tax. Now, on average, people are paying ?1200 less tax
:22:20. > :22:25.than they were on the same salaries than they were on the same salaries
:22:26. > :22:28.in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative
:22:29. > :22:31.Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party
:22:32. > :22:37.which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.
:22:38. > :22:43.Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden
:22:44. > :22:49.as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level
:22:50. > :22:54.since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax
:22:55. > :22:57.burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more
:22:58. > :23:00.people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing
:23:01. > :23:05.economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you
:23:06. > :23:11.reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We
:23:12. > :23:15.have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start
:23:16. > :23:21.paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax
:23:22. > :23:26.rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax
:23:27. > :23:34.rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again
:23:35. > :23:36.between now and June Is France now about to make it
:23:37. > :23:40.a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies
:23:41. > :23:43.the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared
:23:44. > :23:46.in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean
:23:47. > :23:48.for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact
:23:49. > :24:08.on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting
:24:09. > :24:10.the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward
:24:11. > :24:16.to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De
:24:17. > :24:21.Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that
:24:22. > :24:25.no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the
:24:26. > :24:28.centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by
:24:29. > :24:35.the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected
:24:36. > :24:42.to anything and only started his own party
:24:43. > :24:45.a few months ago. And the far left in the form
:24:46. > :24:47.of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged
:24:48. > :24:51.in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the
:24:52. > :24:54.traditional governing parties is the centre-right's
:24:55. > :24:57.Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in
:24:58. > :25:00.the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid
:25:01. > :25:06.at generous public expense for a job I've just come across
:25:07. > :25:20.this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood
:25:21. > :25:23.of the French people. It's got the five main candidates
:25:24. > :25:27.for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,
:25:28. > :25:30.the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,
:25:31. > :25:33.and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,
:25:34. > :25:43.Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance
:25:44. > :25:46.of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates
:25:47. > :25:49.them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's
:25:50. > :25:55.going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that
:25:56. > :26:00.two of them may be President But the two of them may not find
:26:01. > :26:13.themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or
:26:14. > :26:27.woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing
:26:28. > :26:30.who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are
:26:31. > :26:37.the more you may be wrong. The country has largely
:26:38. > :26:42.stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,
:26:43. > :26:45.one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is
:26:46. > :26:49.the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come
:26:50. > :26:57.to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in
:26:58. > :27:03.particular the political elite. And an element of
:27:04. > :27:09.nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive
:27:10. > :27:13.in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in
:27:14. > :27:25.the French election. Identity and security has been
:27:26. > :27:28.as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries
:27:29. > :27:35.about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how
:27:36. > :27:40.to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of
:27:41. > :27:43.which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by
:27:44. > :27:54.the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before
:27:55. > :27:57.voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge
:27:58. > :28:08.victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon
:28:09. > :28:12.will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will
:28:13. > :28:16.not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the
:28:17. > :28:19.National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc
:28:20. > :28:25.Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French
:28:26. > :28:28.nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal
:28:29. > :28:31.discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace
:28:32. > :28:40.would represent an existential Brexit would simply become
:28:41. > :28:49.a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels
:28:50. > :28:54.and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from
:28:55. > :29:05.Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.
:29:06. > :29:09.Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist
:29:10. > :29:16.attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how
:29:17. > :29:20.that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this
:29:21. > :29:25.has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One
:29:26. > :29:29.policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd
:29:30. > :29:35.with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the
:29:36. > :29:41.election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a
:29:42. > :29:46.young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the
:29:47. > :29:53.terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was
:29:54. > :30:00.promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's
:30:01. > :30:05.one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But
:30:06. > :30:11.now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least
:30:12. > :30:18.at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might
:30:19. > :30:22.benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely
:30:23. > :30:27.anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she
:30:28. > :30:30.immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if
:30:31. > :30:34.she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in
:30:35. > :30:42.France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years
:30:43. > :30:46.ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan
:30:47. > :30:50.in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was
:30:51. > :30:55.asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream
:30:56. > :30:59.up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,
:31:00. > :31:02.that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened
:31:03. > :31:08.overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.
:31:09. > :31:13.Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the
:31:14. > :31:19.second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics
:31:20. > :31:22.will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange
:31:23. > :31:27.thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go
:31:28. > :31:31.anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger
:31:32. > :31:38.that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as
:31:39. > :31:42.for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people
:31:43. > :31:48.were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to
:31:49. > :31:54.change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will
:31:55. > :31:59.be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time
:32:00. > :32:00.tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your
:32:01. > :32:04.city. Now, the Green Party currently has
:32:05. > :32:07.one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June
:32:08. > :32:10.as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in
:32:11. > :32:12.the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign
:32:13. > :32:14.on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made
:32:15. > :32:16.a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young
:32:17. > :32:18.people they've been But one crucial way they've been
:32:19. > :32:23.betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous
:32:24. > :32:27.ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year
:32:28. > :32:31.on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does
:32:32. > :32:34.the environment need to be doing All the signs are there
:32:35. > :32:37.and it is young people who are going to be bearing
:32:38. > :32:40.the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important
:32:41. > :32:44.that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large
:32:45. > :32:47.but to young people in particular, I think climate change,
:32:48. > :32:49.the environment, looking after our precious resources,
:32:50. > :32:53.has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green
:32:54. > :33:08.MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.
:33:09. > :33:11.Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback
:33:12. > :33:15.cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would
:33:16. > :33:18.you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed
:33:19. > :33:21.manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so
:33:22. > :33:25.I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every
:33:26. > :33:31.party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last
:33:32. > :33:34.time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a
:33:35. > :33:39.position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would
:33:40. > :33:43.you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes
:33:44. > :33:48.for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount
:33:49. > :33:51.of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not
:33:52. > :33:58.entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000
:33:59. > :34:01.people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real
:34:02. > :34:04.focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on
:34:05. > :34:07.that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an
:34:08. > :34:11.enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from
:34:12. > :34:14.country to country and we need European corporation to make that
:34:15. > :34:20.successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of
:34:21. > :34:24.changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in
:34:25. > :34:28.taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the
:34:29. > :34:32.competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change
:34:33. > :34:38.the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.
:34:39. > :34:41.Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending
:34:42. > :34:45.programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.
:34:46. > :34:48.If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and
:34:49. > :34:52.also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10
:34:53. > :34:55.billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the
:34:56. > :34:59.upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a
:35:00. > :35:03.year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not
:35:04. > :35:07.vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on
:35:08. > :35:14.the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...
:35:15. > :35:18.People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above
:35:19. > :35:24.42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate
:35:25. > :35:28.changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion
:35:29. > :35:32.raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of
:35:33. > :35:36.40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would
:35:37. > :35:40.put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on
:35:41. > :35:44.lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,
:35:45. > :35:50.60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?
:35:51. > :35:55.It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you
:35:56. > :35:58.look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,
:35:59. > :36:01.longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also
:36:02. > :36:05.older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost
:36:06. > :36:09.anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The
:36:10. > :36:12.mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the
:36:13. > :36:13.mental arithmetic seems clear but we Progressive Alliance coming? It is
:36:14. > :36:17.going well, I have heard of a lot of Progressive Alliance coming? It is
:36:18. > :36:23.interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of
:36:24. > :36:27.progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,
:36:28. > :36:31.social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they
:36:32. > :36:36.are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has
:36:37. > :36:39.given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with
:36:40. > :36:42.backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small
:36:43. > :36:46.majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must
:36:47. > :36:48.come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using
:36:49. > :36:54.the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.
:36:55. > :36:56.Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the
:36:57. > :37:01.government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen
:37:02. > :37:04.otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the
:37:05. > :37:08.primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium
:37:09. > :37:12.government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that
:37:13. > :37:15.is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you
:37:16. > :37:18.accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical
:37:19. > :37:20.Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat
:37:21. > :37:23.Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I to the country than Theresa May, she
:37:24. > :37:30.has shown herself to be an authoritarian leader and she has
:37:31. > :37:32.said she doesn't want to have dissidents, which I would say is
:37:33. > :37:35.reasonable opposition, and what we are suggesting at the moment is
:37:36. > :37:38.there is a way of avoiding that very hard Brexit and damage to public
:37:39. > :37:42.services. You'd be happy to pay the price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime
:37:43. > :37:45.Minister? I do not see that as a price. People have the choice of
:37:46. > :37:48.Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as Prime Minister, that's the system
:37:49. > :37:54.that works. You would prefer Mr Corbyn? I would but votes are
:37:55. > :37:54.translated into seats and the Progressive Alliance is a step
:37:55. > :37:56.towards It's just gone 3:50pm,
:37:57. > :38:06.you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good afternoon and welcome
:38:07. > :38:08.to Sunday Politics Scotland. Just months after Theresa
:38:09. > :38:11.May ruled it out - It led to
:38:12. > :38:18.heated exchanges at this week's I'll be talking to the SNP's
:38:19. > :38:22.leader at Westminster - and to three of the parties
:38:23. > :38:25.which hope to make a dent It's not even a week
:38:26. > :38:33.since Theresa May announced she wanted a snap general
:38:34. > :38:35.election in June. But already the parties
:38:36. > :38:37.are in full election mode, with candidates being selected
:38:38. > :38:39.and campaigning underway. And there are some interesting
:38:40. > :38:42.polls this weekend. In the studio with me is the polling
:38:43. > :38:45.expert and professor of Politics at the University of
:38:46. > :38:58.Strathclyde, John Curtice. Restored to the Scottish schools.
:38:59. > :39:06.Two today, they would seem to indicate that the Tory surge is more
:39:07. > :39:10.than just imaginary. Evidence since last year's Holyrood elections
:39:11. > :39:15.suggest the Conservatives are advancing in Scotland. We can point
:39:16. > :39:23.to a poll for the Sunday Times which has the Tories at 33%, the highest
:39:24. > :39:33.for years. The same Paul last month had them at 28. It is quite a while
:39:34. > :39:36.since they last pulled so certainly a Conservative revival in Scotland,
:39:37. > :39:44.it looks like it has strengthened further. The SNP, that said are
:39:45. > :39:56.still dominant in the polls but are running at 43%. That is six points
:39:57. > :40:02.below the high level of 2015. It will be difficult for the SNP to
:40:03. > :40:08.hang onto as many as 50 62nd time around, they are inevitably on the
:40:09. > :40:13.defensive and these polls show a marginal drop in support. What does
:40:14. > :40:19.this rising support for the Tories mean in terms of seats? If you take
:40:20. > :40:25.the average today, it suggests the Conservatives will pick up eight
:40:26. > :40:28.seats of the SNP so we are still not talking about the Conservatives
:40:29. > :40:37.having a large representation in Scotland. Any gain in seats north of
:40:38. > :40:39.the border potentially adds to Theresa May's objective which is to
:40:40. > :40:44.get as big a majority inside the Theresa May's objective which is to
:40:45. > :40:48.House of Commons as possible. For so long Scotland as dominated by the
:40:49. > :40:54.SNP, that agenda is more difficult. There has been talk about today is
:40:55. > :41:03.only getting a 100 seat majority, is that the gays? If the Tories pick up
:41:04. > :41:14.seats from Labour? -- is that the case? Could it not cancel out if the
:41:15. > :41:20.Liberal Democrats make inroads? That would be an optimistic scenario for
:41:21. > :41:25.opposition parties. The truth is Labour are 20 points behind. That
:41:26. > :41:36.means you are looking at a majority of around 120 up to 140. There has
:41:37. > :41:38.been seen a rise in Conservative support by squeezing Ukip. Even
:41:39. > :41:43.been seen a rise in Conservative then, it becomes more difficult for
:41:44. > :41:48.any party, including the Liberal Democrats to take seats of the
:41:49. > :41:55.Conservatives. There clearly are some seats, one can point to seats
:41:56. > :42:01.in London where the Liberal Democrats won until 2015 and still
:42:02. > :42:04.have a substantial base. At the moment, if the Liberal Democrats
:42:05. > :42:07.were to do as much as double their representation, they will be doing
:42:08. > :42:12.were to do as much as double their well and nine extra seats is not
:42:13. > :42:20.going to make a major dent in to Theresa May's position. Can leave a
:42:21. > :42:25.turn around and defy the polls? The cute but even if they defy the
:42:26. > :42:33.polls, they will still end up losing because they are just so far behind
:42:34. > :42:37.in the polls. The polls, although inaccurate sometimes, have never
:42:38. > :42:44.been so inaccurate to suggest that a 20 point lead is some kind of myth.
:42:45. > :42:49.This means that Labour Party is facing a series defeat, perhaps more
:42:50. > :42:56.seriously than back in 1993 when Michael foot led the party and also
:42:57. > :43:00.the party is at risk of ending up with nothing in Scotland, they have
:43:01. > :43:04.Edinburgh South. Both the Conservatives and Labour are eyeing
:43:05. > :43:07.that seat. Thank you very much indeed.
:43:08. > :43:08.So what does that mean for the politicians?
:43:09. > :43:11.Joining me now from Moray is the deputy leader of the SNP
:43:12. > :43:18.and the party's Westminster leader Angus Robertson.
:43:19. > :43:24.This progressive alliance that Nicola Sturgeon was talking about,
:43:25. > :43:35.given the attitude of labour and the Liberal Democrats, has that no gone?
:43:36. > :43:39.I think all the indications are that there are no circumstances that
:43:40. > :43:44.suggest there might be an opportunity to work across parties
:43:45. > :43:47.to thwart this ever more extreme right-wing Tory government. Whilst
:43:48. > :43:51.always stressing that we are prepared to work with other parties,
:43:52. > :43:57.it is totally dependent on the numbers and looks like Labour are
:43:58. > :44:02.heading for a bad -- I defeat in England so I think the question is
:44:03. > :44:06.academic at this stage. I should apologise to people watching because
:44:07. > :44:13.that is a long delay on this satellite link. Brexit, what are you
:44:14. > :44:16.going to see? There are areas, especially in the north-east, your
:44:17. > :44:21.constituency in fact, where people were glad to get out of the European
:44:22. > :44:27.union, are you going to be is telling them to vote SNP so we can
:44:28. > :44:34.have an independence referendum and go straight back in again? I think
:44:35. > :44:38.the key point, even for leave voters throughout Scotland and this part of
:44:39. > :44:42.the world, if they were not voting for the hard Brexit the UK
:44:43. > :44:48.Government is voting. Membership of the single market really matters, in
:44:49. > :44:52.this part of the world for example for the fish processors or she is in
:44:53. > :44:57.Speyside where we are known as the centre of the food and drink
:44:58. > :45:03.industry for Scotland. -- or here in Speyside. A lot of people who voted
:45:04. > :45:07.leave in the referendum are very concerned about the prospect of hard
:45:08. > :45:11.Brexit that Theresa May is proceeding which is why a vote for
:45:12. > :45:16.the SNP will be a vote for protecting our place in Europe and
:45:17. > :45:22.ourselves against the dangers and excesses of the Brexit position
:45:23. > :45:23.being pursued by the government in Westminster. It is SNP policy to
:45:24. > :45:28.become a full member of the European Westminster. It is SNP policy to
:45:29. > :45:33.union, so you're in the -- message to fishermen for example, you might
:45:34. > :45:37.be glad to get out of the Common fisheries policy but our policy as
:45:38. > :45:44.the SNP is to have an independent Scotland which will go straight back
:45:45. > :45:49.into the Common fisheries? The first thing to understand is that the UK
:45:50. > :45:53.Government has listed fishing is a low priority in its Brexit
:45:54. > :45:57.negotiations so fishermen in this part of the world have long memories
:45:58. > :46:02.and remembered it was the Tories who sold out the fishing industry and
:46:03. > :46:05.caused devastation to jobs right around the Scottish coast. We're not
:46:06. > :46:10.going to take lessons and protecting the fishing industry from the
:46:11. > :46:14.Tories. It will be important to the next parliament that strong voices
:46:15. > :46:19.will be standing up for fishing communities which is what we will do
:46:20. > :46:24.and that is why membership of the single market really matters. It is
:46:25. > :46:30.not just the offshore sector, it is the onshore sector, like food
:46:31. > :46:34.processing which matter so much to our economy. The SNP will be
:46:35. > :46:39.protecting coastal communities well the Tories suggest they are low
:46:40. > :46:46.priority. This new model approach is not what I stood SNP policy to be. I
:46:47. > :46:48.priority. This new model approach is thought the policy was another
:46:49. > :46:52.independence referendum, you want to win it and become a full member of
:46:53. > :47:01.the European union which would involve joining the Common Fisheries
:47:02. > :47:07.Policy? The first thing on this election campaign is that it is
:47:08. > :47:10.about electing a parliament at Westminster and a UK government. On
:47:11. > :47:17.the question of the independence referendum, the SNP already has a
:47:18. > :47:23.mandate to hold such a referendum, the Scottish Parliament has already
:47:24. > :47:28.voted for it. Specifically on the fishing industry, I would repeat the
:47:29. > :47:33.point that the UK Government says fishing is a low priority. I would
:47:34. > :47:38.have real concerns, given that we know the Tories have not committed
:47:39. > :47:40.to repatriating all powers of the fisheries, notwithstanding the fact
:47:41. > :47:45.to repatriating all powers of the that it is devolved. Having sold out
:47:46. > :47:49.the fishing industry once, I think people in coastal communities should
:47:50. > :47:55.be cautious about the Tories suggesting they are friends of the
:47:56. > :47:58.fishing industry when they are not. I was not asking what you will see
:47:59. > :48:03.to the Tories but what you will see to your own elected it. I have asked
:48:04. > :48:06.you three times to state that it is the SNP policy to have an
:48:07. > :48:11.independence referendum and become a full member of the European union
:48:12. > :48:18.and therefore the Common Fisheries Policy but you still have not said
:48:19. > :48:23.yes, that is the SNP policy? Yes, it is the SNP policy, we are in favour
:48:24. > :48:26.of Scotland being a member state member of the European union and a
:48:27. > :48:32.member of the Common Fisheries Policy but I am seeing this election
:48:33. > :48:38.is about Brexit negotiations and the UK Government approach to fishing.
:48:39. > :48:41.We have ascertained that the UK Government regards fishing and
:48:42. > :48:45.fishing communities as a low priority and they are not prepared
:48:46. > :48:49.to ensure that all of the powers that should be exercised over
:48:50. > :48:59.fishing in Scotland are exercised in Scotland. So if people are going to
:49:00. > :49:02.stand up for Scotland in the next general election, it will be the SNP
:49:03. > :49:06.that do it, not the Tories. On this issue about limiting tax credit to
:49:07. > :49:14.two children, will it be your policy to stop that happening in Scotland
:49:15. > :49:25.by effectively keeping the existing situation on tax credits or not? You
:49:26. > :49:30.are talking about what is more generally understood as the Reaper
:49:31. > :49:33.clause which unfortunately, the Tories in Scotland have been running
:49:34. > :49:41.away from ever since it was passed. away from ever since it was passed.
:49:42. > :49:47.-- rape clause. We voted for its repeal at Westminster. If ever we
:49:48. > :49:52.wanted a timely memory that the Tories are the nasty party, an
:49:53. > :49:57.epithet that was coined by Theresa May, it is this rape clause. Every
:49:58. > :50:03.SNP parliamentarian and I would say the opportunity to thank my
:50:04. > :50:09.colleague who has been spearheading the campaign against rape clause,
:50:10. > :50:11.the more SNP MPs that are at Westminster, the louder the voice
:50:12. > :50:16.against the rape clause. Anyone voting against will be contributing
:50:17. > :50:19.to the idea this is an inappropriate policy and it is not. Thank you very
:50:20. > :50:20.much. In the studio now -
:50:21. > :50:22.we have the deputy leader of Scottish Labour, Alex Rowley,
:50:23. > :50:25.the deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Jackson Carlaw -
:50:26. > :50:27.and in our Edinburgh studio is the Scottish Liberal Democrat MSP
:50:28. > :50:37.Alex Cole Hamilton. And so-called rape clause, the
:50:38. > :50:42.Scottish Tories have themselves in a right mess over this, and how will
:50:43. > :50:46.you get out of it? Any form of welfare reform is difficult, it
:50:47. > :50:50.touches on sensitive issues. In 2015 beware committed to welfare reform
:50:51. > :50:54.and one of the reforms was that would be -- there would be a tax
:50:55. > :51:03.credit for the first two children in each family had we felt was that
:51:04. > :51:06.they would be provisos. This includes children that were born as
:51:07. > :51:10.a result of nonconsensual sex. We think it is right the benefit is
:51:11. > :51:16.attached but I send that it is an awkward policy. And should be gotten
:51:17. > :51:21.rid of? I don't think so, because we agree that the reform is
:51:22. > :51:24.necessary... If you are in a room thinking about this you wonder how
:51:25. > :51:29.on earth did someone actually think this was a good idea? When we put
:51:30. > :51:33.this before Parliament that child tax credits should be for the first
:51:34. > :51:37.two children in a family we spoke to other parties to establish what
:51:38. > :51:41.exemptions should exist in those circumstances and this was one of
:51:42. > :51:46.the exemptions. Harriet Harman in principle supported that this should
:51:47. > :51:51.be one of the exemptions pursued. It isn't appropriate that additional
:51:52. > :51:56.benefits goes to the families. Alec, what ambitions do you have? You are
:51:57. > :52:00.20 points behind in the pool. We have just had angered Robertson be
:52:01. > :52:03.very clear that his party the SNP want to take Scotland out all our
:52:04. > :52:08.largest single market which is the want to take Scotland out all our
:52:09. > :52:13.UK, in order to get us into the European single market by remaining
:52:14. > :52:17.part of the European Union and in terms of the Tories, this next six
:52:18. > :52:22.or seven weeks we need to examine not just the hard Brexit but the
:52:23. > :52:26.record, we need to examine the record... Have you any confidence
:52:27. > :52:31.that Jeremy Corbyn the Labour Party can overturn a 20 point deficit in
:52:32. > :52:34.the polls in seven days -- seven weeks? I support Jeremy Corbyn and
:52:35. > :52:37.he can offer a different kind of politics. People in this country
:52:38. > :52:42.want change and that is what's Jeremy Corbyn offers. The permit to
:52:43. > :52:46.be able to ask what kind of society to be one? One of the same with the
:52:47. > :52:50.Tories or do we want ripped out of the largest single market... You
:52:51. > :52:52.have been single for two years and it has made no difference. What do
:52:53. > :52:57.have been single for two years and you do to change it? In these next
:52:58. > :53:00.six and seven weeks there are important issues in terms of Brexit
:53:01. > :53:04.and the SNP want to dig is out of our largest in the market but let's
:53:05. > :53:08.look at our record with the Tories in the table Scotland that we want.
:53:09. > :53:12.I am confident that if we can do that and we can narrow those polls
:53:13. > :53:18.and Labour can win seats in Scotland as well as across the United
:53:19. > :53:20.Kingdom. Alex Cole Hamilton, I'm curious about your position on
:53:21. > :53:26.another referendum on the European Union. You're seeing now that there
:53:27. > :53:32.should only be one when there is -- when the negotiations have come to a
:53:33. > :53:35.final deal, is that correct? That is correct, we are offering a
:53:36. > :53:40.referendum on the exit deal with remain being an option on that
:53:41. > :53:42.ballot paper, we believe that when the league campaign took the case to
:53:43. > :53:44.the British people on the 23rd of June that it was based on a
:53:45. > :53:47.prospectus which has been found out June that it was based on a
:53:48. > :53:51.to be profoundly flawed and indeed June that it was based on a
:53:52. > :53:55.in some cases concluded depositors, everyone members... Just to be
:53:56. > :53:59.clear, the British government to negotiate a deal and the Liberal
:54:00. > :54:01.Democrats seem to accept that the British government will not be a
:54:02. > :54:06.Liberal Democrat one-handed then has to have a referendum but to be clear
:54:07. > :54:11.Liberal Democrat one-handed then has you're seeing if the deal was
:54:12. > :54:16.rejected we do what? Stay in the EU? Absolutely and I think that is a
:54:17. > :54:19.message that is really resonating with 40s across the country. We have
:54:20. > :54:25.seen Liberal Democrat membership search by 15,000 across the country.
:54:26. > :54:28.We have taken in ?1.6 million in donations in that time goes this is
:54:29. > :54:33.a message that makes it unique among the other parties. We want to have
:54:34. > :54:35.Scotland remain at the heart of the United Kingdom and the United
:54:36. > :54:40.Kingdom remain in the heart of Europe. We will put that to the
:54:41. > :54:46.people in a very compelling perspective for us to remain.
:54:47. > :54:49.Jackson Karl, by calling of a general election, since Theresa May
:54:50. > :54:51.completely undermine the position that you can have another
:54:52. > :54:55.independence referendum in Scotland? If you can have another general
:54:56. > :54:59.election when we don't have the faintest idea where the Brexit
:55:00. > :55:02.negotiations will lead them why not have another independence
:55:03. > :55:05.referendum? And independence referendum is something that would
:55:06. > :55:07.take one year or two years or longer and I think would paralyse Scotland
:55:08. > :55:10.through the process. The general and I think would paralyse Scotland
:55:11. > :55:15.election will be resolved by June eight. That is not the argument
:55:16. > :55:17.Theresa May, she said you can't have another independence referendum
:55:18. > :55:21.because we don't know what the final Brexit deal is and it would not be
:55:22. > :55:24.fair to the people of Scotland to ask them to me the choice but the
:55:25. > :55:30.people of Britain are being asked to make a choice. The people and were
:55:31. > :55:33.asked to make a choice last year... She wants a mandate for her former
:55:34. > :55:38.Brexit that we haven't the faintest idea what it is. She wants a mandate
:55:39. > :55:42.to make sure that it is she, Theresa May, negotiating on behalf of the UK
:55:43. > :55:47.through the whole process. Why does she need a mandate for that? That is
:55:48. > :55:50.the situation we are in. Many people have come to realise that the
:55:51. > :55:53.negotiations would be coming to a conclusion at the point where
:55:54. > :55:57.another general election might be about to take place are we not to
:55:58. > :56:00.seek a fresh mandate. Following up on Alex Cole Hamilton's point in the
:56:01. > :56:04.pond Theresa May is making, if what you're doing is advertising in
:56:05. > :56:07.advance that you are going to have another referendum, which of course
:56:08. > :56:10.we would encourage not to negotiate seriously or to negotiate a bad
:56:11. > :56:15.deal, or if you are at the point where there is another election and
:56:16. > :56:19.maybe in the of those not to try and negotiate seriously to get the deal
:56:20. > :56:21.we need then I think that would be a problem. The Prime Minister is
:56:22. > :56:25.seeking to get a clear mandate for five years, which would take us
:56:26. > :56:28.through the whole Brexit negotiation process and the clear decision for
:56:29. > :56:36.people on the 8th of June is whether or not they want to read the Jeremy
:56:37. > :56:40.Corbyn conducting the station. What do you make of Alex Cole Hamilton's
:56:41. > :56:45.idea of another referendum? We have got to accept the outcome of the
:56:46. > :56:48.referendum, I campaigned to remain within Europe but we just can't have
:56:49. > :56:53.a time we have a referendum and don't like the result that have
:56:54. > :56:56.another one. I think the Tories... Labour position is that there should
:56:57. > :57:04.be a meaningful vote on the final deal. Yes. What does that mean? We
:57:05. > :57:08.need to get the best deal possible and that is about access to the
:57:09. > :57:14.single market. Let's say that doesn't happen in the House of
:57:15. > :57:16.Commons rises up under a, Labour vote against the final deal, at
:57:17. > :57:19.least what Alex Cole Hamilton are vote against the final deal, at
:57:20. > :57:26.seeing is clear, we would stay in the EU. I am not clear what labours
:57:27. > :57:30.idea is. We are seeing if you want a Brexit deal that isn't the best of
:57:31. > :57:35.Scotland and the UK and then vote Labour. The Tories want to spend
:57:36. > :57:38.this whole election talking about Brexit or independence, because they
:57:39. > :57:42.don't want to talk about the record, they don't want to talk about the
:57:43. > :57:45.big issues facing people in Scotland every day. So we need to have a
:57:46. > :57:48.discussion around Brexit, we certainly need to roll out another
:57:49. > :57:55.independence referendum in the lifetime of this Parliament -- rule
:57:56. > :57:59.out another referendum in the lifetime of this Parliament. Before
:58:00. > :58:06.Jackson Carl or Alex Cole Hamilton both set, the criticism of Labour on
:58:07. > :58:12.Brexit is that you don't have a clear line with the Lib Dems and
:58:13. > :58:14.Tories do. We accept the outcome of the referendum, and in that
:58:15. > :58:20.referendum it was never put forward that if you come out of Europe then
:58:21. > :58:23.you could not have access to the European free market. And we need to
:58:24. > :58:27.get the best deal possible that gives us access into Europe for
:58:28. > :58:30.trade and while at the same time retaining access to our largest
:58:31. > :58:36.single market which is the rest of the United Kingdom. Alex Cole
:58:37. > :58:41.Hamilton, as I am sure Alec rally will say there will be a research
:58:42. > :58:44.and support for Jeremy Corbyn and Labour will do quite well but not
:58:45. > :58:50.quite well enough. There are no circumstances whatsoever in which
:58:51. > :58:53.you would go into coalition? Not at all and Tim Farren made that
:58:54. > :58:57.clear. That is because everybody knows the Jeremy Corbyn is going to
:58:58. > :59:02.lose this election very badly but also... If you thought he would win
:59:03. > :59:07.then you might want to coalition? Because of the real vacillation in
:59:08. > :59:13.the Labour Party, we have just headed there, they don't believe
:59:14. > :59:16.that the process begun by a vote by the British people should "By the
:59:17. > :59:20.British people and that should be left Parliament, if Labour not get
:59:21. > :59:23.what they want the left out of this process and as such they will be as
:59:24. > :59:28.opposed Jeremy Corbyn as leadership opposed Jeremy Corbyn as leadership
:59:29. > :59:33.-- in his leadership, you'll be carping from the sidelines. We want
:59:34. > :59:40.to be the new opposition to the Tory government at Westminster. Alec, I
:59:41. > :59:47.can see already the pollsters, you know, of Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola
:59:48. > :59:49.Sturgeon's pocket appear in England. How will you convince voters in
:59:50. > :59:51.Sturgeon's pocket appear in England. England that should Jeremy Corbyn
:59:52. > :59:54.Sturgeon's pocket appear in England. reasonably well and have a chance of
:59:55. > :59:59.forming a government that he will not immediately having been rejected
:00:00. > :00:05.by Alex Cole Hamilton joined up with the SNP? That is why the need to
:00:06. > :00:09.campaign for every vote in Scotland that that the party that will stand
:00:10. > :00:14.up for Scotland in Westminster, the party that will... Would you roll
:00:15. > :00:18.out coalition with the SNP under any circumstances? Absolutely. We are
:00:19. > :00:21.the party that will stand up for Scotland and Westminster and will go
:00:22. > :00:25.to Westminster and fight for Scotland, so we are asking people in
:00:26. > :00:31.Scotland to vote Labour and said Labour MPs to Westminster to stand
:00:32. > :00:37.up for Scotland. The Mac will you be on the phone to Central office
:00:38. > :00:42.saying old printing those posters of Jeremy Corbyn and Nicola Sturgeon
:00:43. > :00:49.because we want to see in this campaign, not fake news that would
:00:50. > :00:53.be fake news. Produces Jeremy Corbyn will be in Scotland's pocket, he was
:00:54. > :00:57.not huge and the referendum in 2014, he said he's too busy and he said he
:00:58. > :01:03.is personally relaxed about having a second independent referendum.
:01:04. > :01:04.People in Scotland are not want a second independent referendum and
:01:05. > :01:09.already Scottish Conservatives have been consistent about this. That is
:01:10. > :01:15.interesting but it has nothing to do with the question I asked. That is
:01:16. > :01:18.the truth of the position. It damages the case for the union when
:01:19. > :01:22.PC pro UK parties like the Conservatives doing down the very
:01:23. > :01:30.hard efforts of our party Liberal Democrats would have been
:01:31. > :01:36.consistent. 12 months ago you said was not a condition of the
:01:37. > :01:41.letters... I won my election, I won my election in Edinburgh West on an
:01:42. > :01:45.absolute resolute commitment to oppose a second referendum. Alec
:01:46. > :01:49.appeared to interject and say... The oppose a second referendum. Alec
:01:50. > :01:54.Tories are the greatest threat to the union. The Tories want to
:01:55. > :02:02.continue, ... Labours policies that the Tories are a great asset to the
:02:03. > :02:04.UK? The Tories want to make the issue of the second referendum in
:02:05. > :02:06.UK? The Tories want to make the Scotland. I think you will find in
:02:07. > :02:08.UK? The Tories want to make the Parliament and elsewhere the Tories
:02:09. > :02:13.talk about independence more than any other party. The reason for that
:02:14. > :02:19.if the do not want to talk about the record. Talking about the rape
:02:20. > :02:22.clause, you said that it was like and member the word to use,
:02:23. > :02:28.unfortunate? It is an awkward policy but it is the right one. If it is
:02:29. > :02:30.not good policy then surely it should be repealed. We must support
:02:31. > :02:33.as I said earlier families where should be repealed. We must support
:02:34. > :02:37.there are multiple births, children are adopted from care and also
:02:38. > :02:41.children in those circumstances. It would be bad policy not to support
:02:42. > :02:47.them. Easy it is not good policies we have to change it. I am sorry,
:02:48. > :02:48.there will be many more opportunities, we have seven weeks
:02:49. > :02:50.of this. Now it's time to take look
:02:51. > :02:52.back over the last seven it's certainly been
:02:53. > :03:03.a tumultuous week. One minute we were all girding our
:03:04. > :03:06.loins for the local council elections, the next,
:03:07. > :03:08.Mrs May shook us out of our post-bank holiday complacency
:03:09. > :03:10.with a bombshell announcement. John McManus looks back
:03:11. > :03:24.at a momentous seven days. Delicious. Maybe you can have too
:03:25. > :03:28.much chocolate. But when we all came back from the Easter bank holiday on
:03:29. > :03:32.Tuesday we thought the only thing we had to look forward to was this.
:03:33. > :03:38.Scottish council elections. Hardly a sugar rush. Then... I have just
:03:39. > :03:40.chaired a meeting of the Cabinet sugar rush. Then... I have just
:03:41. > :03:43.where we agreed that the government sugar rush. Then... I have just
:03:44. > :03:50.should call a general election. To be held on the 8th of June. Brad
:03:51. > :03:54.Haddin she said... I am not going to be calling a snap election, I have
:03:55. > :03:57.been clear that I think we need the period of time and stability to be
:03:58. > :04:04.able to deal with the issues that the country is facing and have that
:04:05. > :04:06.election in 2020. That post holiday U-turn took everyone by surprise.
:04:07. > :04:12.And suddenly poetical journalists were burning of those Easter
:04:13. > :04:15.calories in a frenzy of comments. On Wednesday MPs gathered in the
:04:16. > :04:21.Commons to vote through the planned for June 's election with just 13
:04:22. > :04:26.opposed. The SNP abstained. The Prime Minister made clear that this
:04:27. > :04:30.was all about Brexit. I will ask the British people for the mandate to
:04:31. > :04:34.complete Brexit and make a success of it. Once they picked themselves
:04:35. > :04:36.up from the four political opponents of Mrs May in Scotland moved quickly
:04:37. > :04:42.to frame the coming election in the of Mrs May in Scotland moved quickly
:04:43. > :04:47.Thames. The key issue at this election is who is going to stand up
:04:48. > :04:53.for Scotland against an increasingly hardline Tory government? Ruth
:04:54. > :04:58.Davidson was not going to take that lying down. The fact is presiding
:04:59. > :05:02.officer that the way the SNP is readying itself to poor negativity
:05:03. > :05:07.on this country at this election is shameful. She might not like it, but
:05:08. > :05:10.on this country at this election is Scotland is part of this United
:05:11. > :05:15.Kingdom. And Kizzire Dugdale wanted to know why the SNP have abstained
:05:16. > :05:21.in the Commons vote. The First Minister has said that she wants an
:05:22. > :05:29.honest debate. So let's have it. It sits the SNP for the Tories to stay
:05:30. > :05:32.in power. And staying with Brexit, received uncertainty over whether
:05:33. > :05:33.SNP stand on membership of the EU has become a weapon for their
:05:34. > :05:46.opponents. The First Minister has a chance to
:05:47. > :05:51.influence this, does she want full membership of the European union in
:05:52. > :05:55.the SNP manifesto? Our policy is clear, we want Scotland to remain
:05:56. > :06:02.members of the European union. Nobody could have missed that. In
:06:03. > :06:06.2015 leave heard accusations it would be puppet of the SNP that
:06:07. > :06:10.2015 leave heard accusations it formed a minority government. At his
:06:11. > :06:15.campaign launch, Jeremy Corbyn quashed that idea and insisted the
:06:16. > :06:22.underdog could be top dog. They think there are rules and politics,
:06:23. > :06:27.which if you don't fall by doffing your cap to the powerful people, is
:06:28. > :06:33.accepting that things can change, then you cannot when but of course
:06:34. > :06:40.they do not want us to win because when we win it is the people, not
:06:41. > :06:45.the powerful who wins. Away from the election, the row over their rape
:06:46. > :06:49.clause was growing with Ruth Davidson repeatedly condemned for
:06:50. > :06:53.supporting it. Do you support the rape clause in principle or do you
:06:54. > :07:04.like we think it is utterly abhorrent, and so the question? --
:07:05. > :07:08.answer. I will answer the question the same way I answered it in the
:07:09. > :07:14.press, if the First Minister does not like the two child tax policy,
:07:15. > :07:18.she can change it. So the election is coming up, the starter in May and
:07:19. > :07:22.the main courses in June. All parties will try to say they are
:07:23. > :07:27.offering something fresh and distinctive. They are hoping the
:07:28. > :07:28.voters will not turn their noses up at them.
:07:29. > :07:32.My guests this week Moray MacDonald - the former director
:07:33. > :07:34.of Scottish Conservatives turned PR executive and Isobel Lindsay,
:07:35. > :07:42.who's the co-vice chair of Scottish CND.
:07:43. > :07:49.Stand back from this little bit, I can see why a lot of people
:07:50. > :07:54.including myself feel confused about the selection because people are
:07:55. > :08:00.saying it is an election about Brexit, it is not entirely clear it
:08:01. > :08:04.is. Another people see it an election about another in did --
:08:05. > :08:10.independence referendum but it is not clear on that either? It is an
:08:11. > :08:14.election because the Tories know there is a lot of nasty stuff coming
:08:15. > :08:19.down the line and decided on balance it would be better to try and have
:08:20. > :08:23.five straight years than face the electorate in three years from no so
:08:24. > :08:28.it is really about opportunism on the part of Theresa May's
:08:29. > :08:33.government. How it is framed by the other parties is another question.
:08:34. > :08:41.The Tories were already trying to run the local elections on the basis
:08:42. > :08:48.of anti-dot-mac no with a general election it is anti-referendum. I
:08:49. > :08:53.think the SNP has quite a good opportunity because they can both
:08:54. > :08:59.combine the case for independence implicitly by focusing on the damage
:09:00. > :09:04.that five years of a very right-wing Tory government can do to Scotland's
:09:05. > :09:08.and looking at past records. They can frame it that way. Sending out
:09:09. > :09:13.the message that the only way to get can frame it that way. Sending out
:09:14. > :09:21.out of this is independence but at the same time, can't talk about the
:09:22. > :09:26.issues. Should the SNP failed to win 56 seats, the opposition parties
:09:27. > :09:30.will laugh and say that Peak nationalism is over? Of course they
:09:31. > :09:36.will try and do that even if they lost three seats. The answer is the
:09:37. > :09:45.previous result was so outstanding... As you are a public
:09:46. > :09:50.relations man, what advice would you give Jackson Carlaw who was
:09:51. > :09:53.uncomfortable talking about the rape clause and said it was awkward, then
:09:54. > :10:00.he said it was the correct thing to do? It is awkward for the Tories.
:10:01. > :10:03.You can see why they have the policy because they are restricting
:10:04. > :10:13.benefits to make sure it is only for up to two children. To some people
:10:14. > :10:17.they look on what they perceive as a benefit culture, people who are
:10:18. > :10:21.producing children just to get benefits. I think it is a tiny
:10:22. > :10:26.percentage of the population that would apply to. I would argue we
:10:27. > :10:33.ought to be encouraging growth in the population, it is a slightly odd
:10:34. > :10:38.thing to come up with. Particularly in Scotland, we will have an issue
:10:39. > :10:40.in terms of the employment market, our population is declining so it is
:10:41. > :10:46.more difficult up year. our population is declining so it is
:10:47. > :10:48.realistically what could Jackson Carlaw do? Should the Tories in
:10:49. > :10:52.realistically what could Jackson Scotland say we disagree with
:10:53. > :10:57.Theresa May on this? If you say you are against the rape clause but in
:10:58. > :11:02.favour of the policy, the next question is so what? Women who are
:11:03. > :11:09.raped should not get tax credits for their children? It is a nightmare
:11:10. > :11:13.scenario. It is one of these issues, in the Scottish context, is
:11:14. > :11:19.impossible for the Scottish Tories to deal with, it a reserved matter.
:11:20. > :11:23.What you do is fix the problem in terms of PR, you fix the policy.
:11:24. > :11:29.This then you use will never get you out of that so they have to find a
:11:30. > :11:33.way of getting the cuts they want out of benefits without having
:11:34. > :11:39.this... What do you make about Isabel's talking about the way the
:11:40. > :11:46.SNP frames this implicitly? Building a talk by warning people about the
:11:47. > :11:50.dangers of a Tory Government? -- building it up. I think that is the
:11:51. > :11:57.right thing to do, in Scotland looks like a battle between the Tories
:11:58. > :12:05.against the SNP... Hang on, 28 up to 33 in the polls. In the battle
:12:06. > :12:09.between the SNP and Tories, according to the polls, labour and
:12:10. > :12:15.the Lib Dems remain apart to that so the more the SNP can label the
:12:16. > :12:26.Tories as a party that are hard on people, the less likely they are to
:12:27. > :12:30.get elected. The result was the sense that as a result of their own
:12:31. > :12:38.success last time, there is not a lot in this for the SNP? I think
:12:39. > :12:51.that is a strong case, if Labour had decided to oppose having another
:12:52. > :12:53.election, but given where we are? -- given where we are, it gives an
:12:54. > :13:00.opportunity for campaigning. A given where we are, it gives an
:13:01. > :13:06.of supporters, wider than the SNP, are looking for something to do. We
:13:07. > :13:12.want to be good up for another independence... So we have a general
:13:13. > :13:17.election? It was not the choice, they know have a focus and a
:13:18. > :13:23.purpose. There is that in it for them but also they can get this
:13:24. > :13:29.message home that the purchase of independence is not just an abstract
:13:30. > :13:31.one, but it is to determine socio- economic policies. Thank you both
:13:32. > :13:32.very much. Just before we go -
:13:33. > :13:43.lets take a look at one of funniest Winning was 56 seats will be a huge
:13:44. > :13:49.challenge for Nicola Sturgeon's party. They have suggested we have
:13:50. > :13:57.reached the peak for the SNP and the only way is down... There is a
:13:58. > :14:04.lesson there somewhere but I am not sure what it is. Keep an eye out for
:14:05. > :14:08.say hands up to Nicola Sturgeon but say hands up to Nicola Sturgeon but
:14:09. > :14:12.-- because I do say hands up to Nicola Sturgeon but
:14:13. > :14:17.politicians would do. They would have stepped back a bit but she
:14:18. > :14:22.handled very well. We look forward to tearful pieces to camera from
:14:23. > :14:30.there on. -- to tearful pieces.