:00:36. > :00:39.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:46.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:47. > :00:48.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:49. > :00:54.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:55. > :00:57.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:58. > :01:01.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:02. > :01:05.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:06. > :01:07.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:08. > :01:14.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:15. > :01:16.And on Sunday Politics, Scotland I'll be talking to two
:01:17. > :01:19.political leaders looking to make inroads into the SNP vote.
:01:20. > :01:21.Scottish Labour's Kezia Dugdale and the Scottish
:01:22. > :01:35.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:36. > :01:37.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:38. > :01:42.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:43. > :01:50.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:51. > :01:53.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:54. > :01:59.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:02:00. > :02:03.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:04. > :02:08.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:09. > :02:10.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:11. > :02:15.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:16. > :02:17.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:18. > :02:24.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:25. > :02:27.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:28. > :02:30.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:31. > :02:34.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:35. > :02:37.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:38. > :02:47.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:48. > :02:49.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:50. > :02:52.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:53. > :02:54.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:55. > :02:57.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:58. > :03:04.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:05. > :03:11.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:12. > :03:14.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:15. > :03:16.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:17. > :03:20.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:21. > :03:22.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:23. > :03:24.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:25. > :03:27.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:28. > :03:29.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:30. > :03:38.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:39. > :03:46.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:47. > :03:50.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:51. > :03:53.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:54. > :03:58.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:59. > :04:05.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:06. > :04:11.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:12. > :04:16.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:17. > :04:19.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:20. > :04:25.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:26. > :04:28.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:29. > :04:39.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:40. > :04:42.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:43. > :04:48.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:49. > :04:53.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:54. > :04:57.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:58. > :05:00.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:01. > :05:04.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:05. > :05:10.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:11. > :05:14.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:15. > :05:21.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:22. > :05:25.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:26. > :05:31.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:32. > :05:35.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:36. > :05:40.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:41. > :05:44.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:45. > :05:50.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:51. > :05:52.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:53. > :05:57.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:58. > :06:03.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:04. > :06:06.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:07. > :06:09.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:10. > :06:16.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:17. > :06:19.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:20. > :06:23.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:24. > :06:29.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:30. > :06:33.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:34. > :06:36.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:37. > :06:41.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:42. > :06:49.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:50. > :06:53.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:54. > :07:00.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:01. > :07:05.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:06. > :07:08.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:09. > :07:12.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:13. > :07:20.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:21. > :07:24.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:25. > :07:31.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:32. > :07:34.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:35. > :07:39.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:40. > :07:45.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:46. > :07:51.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:52. > :07:56.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:57. > :07:59.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:08:00. > :08:05.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:06. > :08:10.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:11. > :08:13.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:14. > :08:18.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:19. > :08:23.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:24. > :08:26.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:27. > :08:30.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:31. > :08:33.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:34. > :08:37.greater. Do you think that is the polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:38. > :08:40.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:41. > :08:44.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:45. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:54.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:55. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:03.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:04. > :09:06.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:07. > :09:11.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:12. > :09:15.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:16. > :09:21.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:22. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:29.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:30. > :09:32.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:33. > :09:37.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:38. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:53.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:54. > :10:00.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:01. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:15.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:16. > :10:19.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:20. > :10:23.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:24. > :10:29.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:30. > :10:33.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:34. > :10:36.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:37. > :10:41.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:42. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:49.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:50. > :10:54.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:55. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:58.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:59. > :11:00.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:01. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:07.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:08. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:30.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:31. > :11:37.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:38. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:44.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:45. > :11:45.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:46. > :11:47.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:48. > :11:57.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:58. > :12:00.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:01. > :12:04.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:05. > :12:07.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:08. > :12:12.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:13. > :12:19.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:20. > :12:23.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:24. > :12:27.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:28. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:40.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:41. > :12:45.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:46. > :12:54.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:55. > :12:58.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:59. > :13:03.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:04. > :13:06.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:07. > :13:11.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:12. > :13:17.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:18. > :13:21.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:22. > :13:28.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:29. > :13:32.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:33. > :13:36.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:37. > :13:41.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:42. > :13:47.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:48. > :13:50.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:51. > :13:57.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:58. > :14:00.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:01. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:17.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:18. > :14:23.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:24. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:30.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:31. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:40.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:41. > :14:45.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:46. > :14:51.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:52. > :14:55.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:56. > :15:00.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:01. > :15:05.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:06. > :15:09.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:10. > :15:14.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:15. > :15:18.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:19. > :15:23.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:24. > :15:31.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:32. > :15:35.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:36. > :15:40.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:41. > :15:45.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:46. > :15:49.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:50. > :15:52.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:53. > :15:59.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:00. > :16:02.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:03. > :16:06.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:07. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:13.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:14. > :16:18.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:19. > :16:21.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:22. > :16:27.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:28. > :16:33.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:34. > :16:37.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:38. > :16:47.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:48. > :16:53.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:54. > :16:58.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:59. > :17:01.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:02. > :17:05.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:06. > :17:09.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:10. > :17:14.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:15. > :17:21.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:22. > :17:25.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:26. > :17:28.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:29. > :17:36.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:37. > :17:39.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:40. > :17:44.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:45. > :17:48.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:49. > :17:53.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:54. > :17:57.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:58. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:15.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:16. > :18:17.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:18. > :18:20.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:21. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:31.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:32. > :18:41.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:42. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:50.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:51. > :18:54.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:55. > :19:02.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:03. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:24.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:25. > :19:27.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:28. > :19:31.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:32. > :19:35.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:36. > :19:39.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:40. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:45.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:46. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:50.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:51. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:57.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:58. > :20:10.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:11. > :20:14.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:15. > :20:19.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:20. > :20:23.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:24. > :20:28.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:29. > :20:34.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:35. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:43.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:44. > :20:46.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:47. > :20:53.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:54. > :20:57.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:58. > :21:01.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:02. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:11.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:12. > :21:16.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:17. > :21:22.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:23. > :21:28.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:29. > :21:31.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:32. > :21:36.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:37. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:49.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:50. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:56.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:57. > :22:02.they will do that? They said, only a they will do that? They said, only a
:22:03. > :22:06.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:07. > :22:12.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:13. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:19.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:20. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:26.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:27. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:38.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:39. > :22:42.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:43. > :22:47.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:48. > :22:52.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:53. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:03.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:04. > :23:07.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:08. > :23:11.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:12. > :23:17.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:18. > :23:21.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:22. > :23:28.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:29. > :23:37.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:38. > :23:40.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:41. > :23:48.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:49. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:58.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:59. > :24:02.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:03. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:20.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:21. > :24:26.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:27. > :24:31.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:32. > :24:35.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:36. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:44.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:45. > :24:49.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:50. > :24:54.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:55. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:10.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:11. > :25:13.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:14. > :25:17.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:18. > :25:25.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:26. > :25:28.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:29. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:40.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:41. > :25:43.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:44. > :25:53.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:54. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:10.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:11. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:44.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:45. > :26:48.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:49. > :26:52.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:53. > :26:58.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:59. > :27:03.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:04. > :27:09.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:10. > :27:17.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:18. > :27:20.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:21. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:35.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:36. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:49.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:50. > :27:54.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:55. > :27:58.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:59. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:07.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:08. > :28:11.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:12. > :28:16.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:17. > :28:22.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:23. > :28:34.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:35. > :28:36.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:37. > :28:44.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:45. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:52.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:53. > :28:53.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:54. > :28:55.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:56. > :28:57.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:58. > :28:59.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:29:00. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:05.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:06. > :29:10.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:11. > :29:28.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:29. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:33.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:34. > :29:40.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:41. > :29:44.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:45. > :29:51.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:52. > :29:55.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:56. > :29:58.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:59. > :30:06.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:07. > :30:10.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:11. > :30:18.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:19. > :30:21.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:22. > :30:25.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:26. > :30:29.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:30. > :30:35.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:36. > :30:45.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:46. > :30:53.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:54. > :31:00.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:01. > :31:03.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:04. > :31:08.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:09. > :31:12.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:13. > :31:15.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:16. > :31:18.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:19. > :31:27.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:28. > :31:30.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:31. > :31:34.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:35. > :31:40.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:41. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:59.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:32:00. > :32:06.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:07. > :32:16.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:17. > :32:25.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:26. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:37.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:38. > :32:41.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:42. > :32:46.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:47. > :32:51.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:55. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:05.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:06. > :33:11.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:12. > :33:17.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:18. > :33:26.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:27. > :33:34.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:35. > :33:38.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:39. > :33:42.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:43. > :33:48.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:49. > :33:51.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:52. > :33:56.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:57. > :34:03.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:04. > :34:07.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:08. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:15.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:16. > :34:18.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:19. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:26.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:27. > :34:28.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:29. > :34:34.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:35. > :34:38.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:39. > :34:44.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:45. > :34:47.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:48. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:57.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:58. > :35:01.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:02. > :35:04.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:05. > :35:09.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:10. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:16.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:17. > :35:22.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:23. > :35:27.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:28. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:38.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:39. > :35:42.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:43. > :35:45.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:46. > :35:49.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:50. > :35:55.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:56. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:05.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:06. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:17.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:18. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:26.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:27. > :36:31.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:32. > :36:35.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:36. > :36:43.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:44. > :36:47.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:48. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :36:58.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:36:59. > :37:04.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:05. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:16.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:17. > :37:19.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:20. > :37:26.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:27. > :37:32.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:33. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our
:37:40. > :37:41.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:42. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:49.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:50. > :37:56.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:57. > :38:00.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:01. > :38:04.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:05. > :38:11.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:12. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:21.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:22. > :38:25.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:26. > :38:29.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:30. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:39.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:40. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:50.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:51. > :38:51.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:52. > :38:53.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:54. > :39:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:39:01. > :39:02.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:39:03. > :39:09.With 11 days to go and campaigning having resumed by all the parties,
:39:10. > :39:12.I'll be asking Labour's Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson
:39:13. > :39:13.of the Conservatives to assess their prospects
:39:14. > :39:22.Well, we now know the details of all the party's general
:39:23. > :39:23.election pledges, bar one, the SNP who'll launch
:39:24. > :39:27.Shortly, I'll be speaking to Kezia Dugdale to see how
:39:28. > :39:30.she views Scottish Labour's prospects but first our reporter
:39:31. > :39:40.Andrew Black has been looking at some of Labour's promises.
:39:41. > :39:48.Labour's fight in this election with a key pledge to end austerity. It
:39:49. > :39:51.also says it is going to oppose a second referendum on Scottish
:39:52. > :39:55.independence at the same time as arguing for a more federalised
:39:56. > :40:03.country. On the economy, Labour wants to cut loopholes and increase
:40:04. > :40:07.business tax to end austerity and public services. It is time to
:40:08. > :40:12.accept the result of the referendum and strike a deal in the national
:40:13. > :40:16.interest, Labour says. That includes guaranteeing the rights of EU
:40:17. > :40:21.nationals living in Scotland as well as the rights of Scots living
:40:22. > :40:26.elsewhere in the EU. On energy, Labour wants to ban onshore fracking
:40:27. > :40:31.and cap energy prices to keep average bills under ?1000 a year.
:40:32. > :40:35.When it comes to transport, the party wants private rail companies
:40:36. > :40:39.brought back into public ownership, that would include the likes of
:40:40. > :40:44.ScotRail, and it wants the HS2 high-speed rail line to move beyond
:40:45. > :40:49.the North of England into Glasgow and Edinburgh. On the issue of
:40:50. > :40:53.welfare, Labour would scrap the benefits sanctions system, end the
:40:54. > :41:03.so-called bedroom tax, and bring back housing benefit for under 21s.
:41:04. > :41:05.On defence, Labour says it will continue to support the renewal of
:41:06. > :41:07.Trident nuclear weapons even though the party leader Jeremy Corbyn is a
:41:08. > :41:08.long-standing opponent. Well, joining me now
:41:09. > :41:15.is the Scottish Labour Let's start on Manchester and the
:41:16. > :41:19.speech on foreign policy Jeremy Corbyn made after it. You've been
:41:20. > :41:26.saying this morning it is reasonable to ask for an open debate and to
:41:27. > :41:30.have no issues, but what gave offence was when Mr Corbyn said many
:41:31. > :41:35.experts, including professionals in our security services have pointed
:41:36. > :41:39.to the connections between wars our government has fought in other
:41:40. > :41:43.countries, such as Libya, and terrorism at home. It is that
:41:44. > :41:47.implication that somehow we are to blame for what happened in
:41:48. > :41:57.Manchester that gave offence. Would you distance from that? That any one
:41:58. > :42:01.person to blame for the event in Manchester, and that is the
:42:02. > :42:06.terrorist, the man who strapped a suicide bomb at a pop concert,
:42:07. > :42:10.surrounded by young teenage girls, enjoying a music concert. There is
:42:11. > :42:14.no excuse for that, there is no explaining it away, he is 100%
:42:15. > :42:18.responsible for those actions. Jeremy Corbyn use the first day of
:42:19. > :42:22.the general election campaign resuming to make a serious speech
:42:23. > :42:25.about foreign policy... That particular statement, would you
:42:26. > :42:32.distance yourself from that? Could you read it to me again? Many
:42:33. > :42:36.experts have pointed to the connections between wars our
:42:37. > :42:40.governments have supported or fought in other countries, such as Libya,
:42:41. > :42:44.and terrorism at home. The implication that has been drawn from
:42:45. > :42:48.that is that Mr Corbyn is suggesting we are responsible for what has
:42:49. > :42:54.happened. He hasn't said that at all. I just read it to you. It is
:42:55. > :42:57.very clear Jeremy Corbyn and I and everyone across this country
:42:58. > :43:01.recognises the only person responsible for what happened in
:43:02. > :43:05.Manchester was that terrorist. What Jeremy said on Friday was that
:43:06. > :43:08.previous decisions around foreign policy have had an impact on the
:43:09. > :43:12.growth of terrorist organisations around the world and most people
:43:13. > :43:16.would recognise it has had an impact. Nobody is suggesting that as
:43:17. > :43:22.an excuse for the type of event we witnessed. When you asked why people
:43:23. > :43:27.should vote Labour in Scotland, the first reason you gave was to oppose
:43:28. > :43:31.another independence referendum. It seems to me the Tories are
:43:32. > :43:35.benefiting from that sentiment. Why do you think people are not turning
:43:36. > :43:42.to Labour when they want independence? That is what people
:43:43. > :43:46.tell me as I travel the length and breadth of this country. I'm the
:43:47. > :43:49.only leader who has travelled from Stornoway to Lockerbie, and I meet
:43:50. > :43:53.people everywhere that are distressed and worried about the
:43:54. > :43:56.instability that a second independence referendum would cause
:43:57. > :44:02.and the damage it would do, in the form of ?15 billion worth of cuts. I
:44:03. > :44:06.say we stand firmly against independence... The Tories are
:44:07. > :44:10.benefiting from that. I'm making an argument on how to invest in public
:44:11. > :44:18.services. You've been ambiguous on this. I don't accept that. You said
:44:19. > :44:22.in September 2015 that Labour MSPs should be free to campaign for
:44:23. > :44:25.independence and you said you might consider voting on independence
:44:26. > :44:32.should Scotland being forced out of the EU. I've been absolutely
:44:33. > :44:36.clear... So, would you like to say now you rather regret some of those
:44:37. > :44:41.statements he made earlier? I want to say the same thing I've said
:44:42. > :44:45.every single interview is I am opposed to independence and a second
:44:46. > :44:49.independence referendum as is the Labour party in the UK and Scotland.
:44:50. > :44:57.The cause of the damage it would do... So when you said Labour SNP 's
:44:58. > :45:00.should campaign for independence, did you miss beat? We are opposed to
:45:01. > :45:05.independence and a second independence referendum. You
:45:06. > :45:10.suggested there should be a new active union. It doesn't seem to be
:45:11. > :45:14.in the manifesto. What we have in the UK wide manifesto... It isn't in
:45:15. > :45:21.your Scottish manifesto. We are talking about a federal solution...
:45:22. > :45:29.Why doesn't it mention an active union cuisine you keep interrupting
:45:30. > :45:37.me. We can prevent a hard breaks it. You can oppose independence and you
:45:38. > :45:42.don't have to accept the status quo which is why want to see the vast
:45:43. > :45:46.majority of powers come to the Scottish Parliament. The phrase you
:45:47. > :45:51.see is a presumption of devolution. The direction of travel towards a
:45:52. > :45:54.federalised UK. I don't understand why your own Scottish manifesto
:45:55. > :46:00.doesn't mention the policy you've been promoting of a new active
:46:01. > :46:03.union. We've been promoting a Scottish Convention, Scotland's
:46:04. > :46:10.creation ship with the UK changing, having more powers in the Scottish
:46:11. > :46:15.Parliament. What we haven't had in the UK is a similar debate about
:46:16. > :46:22.devolution in England or Wales. Those words are not even in the
:46:23. > :46:26.Scottish manifesto. There is a presumption of devolution, all those
:46:27. > :46:30.powers coming back to the Scottish Parliament and that we need further
:46:31. > :46:36.powers from Westminster to Holyrood. Let me give you an example. Leaving
:46:37. > :46:39.the EU means an end to the social chapter, workers' rights, maternity
:46:40. > :46:42.leave, paternity leave, they are going to be coming back from
:46:43. > :46:46.Brussels and I'd like those pals to come to the Scottish Parliament so
:46:47. > :46:51.we can make different choices from the Tories which will require more
:46:52. > :46:55.devolution. These are complex issues that are not aided by is that
:46:56. > :46:59.general election. What there is is a clear commitment to the presumption
:47:00. > :47:04.of devolution and a radical reform in the UK so you can reject the
:47:05. > :47:09.extremes of the SNP and hard right Tory Brexit. The SNP say they want
:47:10. > :47:14.another referendum of independence, it was in the manifesto in 2016...
:47:15. > :47:18.People don't want another referendum. Are you saying the SNP
:47:19. > :47:24.have no mandate? I'm saying very clearly wherever I go, people... Are
:47:25. > :47:30.using the SNP have no mandate to call another referendum? The SNP
:47:31. > :47:36.told us the last referendum a once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.
:47:37. > :47:42.The particular culmination of circumstances that has arisen that
:47:43. > :47:45.was mentioned in the SNP manifesto last year, they say they have a
:47:46. > :47:49.mandate for another referendum. If it is in the manifesto, you'd
:47:50. > :47:53.normally agree they'd have a mandate. Are using they don't have a
:47:54. > :48:01.mandate for another referendum? It is clear that after the EU
:48:02. > :48:04.referendum Nicola Sturgeon used Brexit to fight for another
:48:05. > :48:09.referendum. I'm asking whether you accept they have a mandate. Once
:48:10. > :48:13.again you've not allowed me to provide a substantive answer. She's
:48:14. > :48:16.a Brexit was the excuse for another independence referendum but the
:48:17. > :48:21.problem the SNP have is they can't tellers whether Scotland stays,
:48:22. > :48:25.whether we have to reapply for the EU, or whether we will have a noise
:48:26. > :48:29.style arrangement. Her manifesto commitment for a referendum has
:48:30. > :48:33.fallen apart because she can't be clear on Europe. More importantly,
:48:34. > :48:37.the people of Scotland don't want to be dragged back to the arguments of
:48:38. > :48:41.the past. We have to leave it behind us. We were told it was
:48:42. > :48:45.once-in-a-lifetime and it should be respected. That's why I am opposed
:48:46. > :48:51.to a second referendum and why I'm also trying to get this debate to be
:48:52. > :48:56.about investment in public services. You've given a substantive answer.
:48:57. > :49:00.But you haven't answered the question. Are you saying the SNP
:49:01. > :49:05.have no mandate to call another referendum, yes or no? I don't want
:49:06. > :49:11.one... I know but do they have a mandate? The mandate I have is to
:49:12. > :49:16.oppose a second referendum. People will say that it might be reasonable
:49:17. > :49:23.to leave another independence referendum until that Brexit
:49:24. > :49:27.solution is worked out. I am not anti democratic but it was a
:49:28. > :49:33.once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. You then suggest Brexit gives us another
:49:34. > :49:36.referendum. The SNP have three different positions but they
:49:37. > :49:39.continue to bang on about independence when they can't be
:49:40. > :49:44.clear to the electorate which is why 70 people are angry at the SNP and
:49:45. > :49:50.it is going in a bad direction for them. Ie ruling it out? Yes, we are
:49:51. > :50:00.against a second independence referendum. It is annoying when
:50:01. > :50:05.people interrupt you, isn't it? Will Labour MPs voted against it? We have
:50:06. > :50:08.been very clear we are opposed to independence and a second
:50:09. > :50:12.referendum. In hypothetical scenario you are doing, we would be well into
:50:13. > :50:15.processes, the UK Government would have had to have gone into the
:50:16. > :50:18.detail, the franchise and the rest of it. The Tories would have to
:50:19. > :50:22.expect there will be a referendum. We are a far cry away from that.
:50:23. > :50:24.It's Ruth Davidson that accepted in that scenario that she would rocket.
:50:25. > :50:40.Our job to do now is to block a referendum the people of Scotland
:50:41. > :50:42.don't want it, nor do they want independence. In the UK Labour
:50:43. > :50:45.manifesto, they say they want to guarantee there will be no tax hikes
:50:46. > :50:47.to middle and low earners. Why are they wrong? I'm not suggesting there
:50:48. > :50:50.are wrong. Yes, you are. That's not true. Income tax is devolved
:50:51. > :50:55.Scottish parliament. That's why we have a different position in the
:50:56. > :51:00.Scottish Parliament, in the Scottish Labour Party. The tax proposals I
:51:01. > :51:03.put forward to the electorate last year released ?690 million. That's
:51:04. > :51:06.the amount of money we needed to be able to credibly say we could oppose
:51:07. > :51:11.any further cuts to local services, we could fulfil the commitment we
:51:12. > :51:16.made to increase child benefit, ?20 a month by 2020, raising 30,000
:51:17. > :51:22.children out of poverty, and to address things like the nurses'
:51:23. > :51:26.pick-up. If you apply the policies to Scotland, it would generate
:51:27. > :51:31.around ?330 million, so we'll be able to fulfil those commitments to
:51:32. > :51:34.be opposed to Tory austerities and pay for child benefit increases. The
:51:35. > :51:37.wealth in England and Wales resides in London in the south-east. We just
:51:38. > :51:42.don't have as many people in Scotland and whether a year. So I
:51:43. > :51:44.have to use the powers of the Scottish Parliament differently.
:51:45. > :51:49.What would you reply differently to people in middle incomes in
:51:50. > :51:59.Scotland. Hang on a minute, we spend 60% roughly per person more on
:52:00. > :52:01.public spending in Scotland. -- 16%. Some public services, particularly
:52:02. > :52:07.education, are doing better in England. Why should we have to pay
:52:08. > :52:11.more basic tax to pay for public services which we're already
:52:12. > :52:16.spending 16% more per person on? We have seen ?1.5 billion cut out of
:52:17. > :52:20.our local services. There has been much more cut in England. We are
:52:21. > :52:25.stealing that in the starting reality in the children of our
:52:26. > :52:31.schools, being failed by the SNP -- we are seeing that. Were already
:52:32. > :52:35.paying more, why should be taxed more? The median income is around
:52:36. > :52:42.?7,000 a year. In our proposals, someone earning that salary would
:52:43. > :52:46.pay around ?2.80 per week -- 20 ?7,000 a year. I'm not suggesting
:52:47. > :52:51.that that is insignificant. The price of doing that is increased
:52:52. > :52:54.cuts to public services, fewer teachers, support staff, the
:52:55. > :52:59.education record collapsing before our eyes and a failed generation. Is
:53:00. > :53:02.holding back our economy to not invest in public services. The
:53:03. > :53:08.Scottish parliament is immensely powerful, it has the power to make
:53:09. > :53:15.different decisions than Tories. If you want to invest in public
:53:16. > :53:20.services, grow the economy,... If you generated the same amount. Would
:53:21. > :53:25.you do that, what Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting? I would go for a
:53:26. > :53:28.progressive solution like that. Income tax is devolved to the
:53:29. > :53:32.Scottish parliament. I would introduce a 50p top rate and use the
:53:33. > :53:36.basic rate to generate the money we need to scrap the cats. We need to
:53:37. > :53:42.do that to raise the money we need to stop the cuts -- stop the cuts.
:53:43. > :53:45.When I produce proposals, assuming you were in power and Labour in
:53:46. > :53:50.power in the UK, they would pay an extra 1p in income tax, plus have a
:53:51. > :53:55.lower threshold for the 40p rate, now in force in Scotland. Plus
:53:56. > :54:01.whatever tax rises Jeremy Corbyn decides for people earning over
:54:02. > :54:09.?80,000. Plus a 50p rate for over 150,000? I pay less tax... I earn
:54:10. > :54:12.?60,000 a year, I pay less than I did in 2010 because of the tax cuts
:54:13. > :54:15.the Tories put in place. The price of that is community centres,
:54:16. > :54:19.libraries closing, teachers not having the resources they need. You
:54:20. > :54:22.can reject the programme from the Tories and choose Labour's instead,
:54:23. > :54:26.which is about investing in public services and helping grow the
:54:27. > :54:31.economy. Labour is committed to abolishing the so-called rape clause
:54:32. > :54:44.in the welfare system. Is Labour committed to abolishing the
:54:45. > :54:47.limitation of tax credits to two children? Yes. It's not clear in the
:54:48. > :54:50.UK manifesto whether you are committed to that. Is abundantly
:54:51. > :54:51.clear that Labour is going for additional investment in the
:54:52. > :54:54.security system. We would also reform it. We would introduce a real
:54:55. > :54:57.living wage of ?10 per hour, that would reduce the benefits bill. We
:54:58. > :54:59.are committed to ending that cap. We would have to leave it there.
:55:00. > :55:02.Well, in a moment, I'll be speaking to the leader
:55:03. > :55:04.of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson but first Andrew Black
:55:05. > :55:08.takes a brief look at some of the key Tory election pledges.
:55:09. > :55:15.The Conservative manifesto points to what it calls the giant challenges
:55:16. > :55:22.facing the country. These include, says the party, strengthening the
:55:23. > :55:25.economy and adjusting to life in a post-Brexit Britain. On the economy,
:55:26. > :55:31.the Tories want to increase the amount of money you earn before
:55:32. > :55:35.paying income tax to ?12,500 by 2020. The party also wants to cut
:55:36. > :55:42.net migration to below 100,000 across the UK. On energy, the
:55:43. > :55:47.Scottish Conservatives want to boost support for Scotland's shale gas
:55:48. > :55:50.industry, that is essentially fracking. As well as support
:55:51. > :55:56.offshore wind projects. There would be fewer large-scale offshore wind
:55:57. > :56:00.farms. When it comes to welfare benefits, the Conservatives say they
:56:01. > :56:03.will ditch the pensions triple lock under which pension rises are
:56:04. > :56:07.calculated, opting instead for a double lock. The Scottish
:56:08. > :56:11.Conservatives want to protect universal winter fuel payments for
:56:12. > :56:16.all pensioners in Scotland with no means testing, unlike party policy
:56:17. > :56:21.south of the border. On the fishing industry, a pledge to support
:56:22. > :56:25.workers after Britain need the EU. And the Conservatives say the second
:56:26. > :56:29.Scottish independence referendum will not be held unless there is
:56:30. > :56:32.public consent for it to happen. And that there won't be a vote on the
:56:33. > :56:40.issue until the Brexit process has played out. Well, I'm joined by the
:56:41. > :56:48.leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Can we start with
:56:49. > :56:52.Manchester. Jeremy Corbyn 's speech was described by Boris Johnson as
:56:53. > :56:54.absolutely monstrous. He said it was absolutely extraordinary and
:56:55. > :56:58.inexplicable in this week of all weeks, that there should be any
:56:59. > :57:04.attempt to justify or register make the actions of terrorism in this
:57:05. > :57:07.way. Would you distance yourself from that? You know, having a
:57:08. > :57:12.sensible level-headed debate without that kind of language is arguably
:57:13. > :57:15.what we need at the moment. I think Isis said themselves what was behind
:57:16. > :57:23.this attack, they set themselves that Britain's foreign policy was
:57:24. > :57:27.secondary, they said it was attacked because this is not a Muslim
:57:28. > :57:31.country, not a country of believers. In terms of who perpetrated this,
:57:32. > :57:38.whose fault it is, this is the coward -- this is not a country of
:57:39. > :57:41.believers. Streams of teenage girls were leaving, and detonated a bomb.
:57:42. > :57:44.He is at fault for this. We can talk about foreign policy all we like,
:57:45. > :57:48.but to suggest that when such terror attacks have happened in countries
:57:49. > :57:51.like Belgium, like Sweden, who haven't shared the foreign policy
:57:52. > :57:54.Britain. Are you suggesting what Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting? You
:57:55. > :57:59.would say he didn't mean that at all. If you read the text and look
:58:00. > :58:03.at the very quote that you read out to Kezia Dugdale just a few moments
:58:04. > :58:07.ago, he is saying that it is part of the issue of why people are
:58:08. > :58:12.attacking us. We were not involved in Afghanistan or Iraq before the
:58:13. > :58:16.911 bombing. Sweden wasn't involved in these sorts of conflict either.
:58:17. > :58:20.Yet they have still been subject to the same attack. This is about a
:58:21. > :58:23.death cult that hate our freedoms, our democracy and the fact that we
:58:24. > :58:26.tell our young girls, it's all right to go to a pop concert, it's all
:58:27. > :58:29.right to dream that you can be the woman on the stage. The way we beat
:58:30. > :58:32.them is to continue to tell our young women that that's exactly what
:58:33. > :58:38.they can do. There's nothing to stop them. Independence, your number one
:58:39. > :58:41.issue this election. In your manifesto, you introduced new
:58:42. > :58:44.criteria for whether or not there could be another referendum. You
:58:45. > :58:49.said it would need public consent. What does that mean? It's not new.
:58:50. > :58:52.Nicola Sturgeon said she was forcing through in March this year this idea
:58:53. > :58:54.that she was going to Apennines Brexit to try and drag us back to
:58:55. > :59:01.another referendum on independence. another referendum on independence.
:59:02. > :59:04.-- going to use Brexit. There are two principles here. Scotland can be
:59:05. > :59:07.dragged back to another independence referendum when we don't know what
:59:08. > :59:10.the options look like, because we do not Brexit looks like, we don't know
:59:11. > :59:15.what independence looks like because she won't even tell as it should be
:59:16. > :59:19.in the art of the EU. Nor should we be dragged back there when the
:59:20. > :59:25.people of Scotland -- in or out of the EU. I have an ally on that,
:59:26. > :59:29.Nicola Sturgeon. Before the 2016 election, I was standing next to her
:59:30. > :59:32.on a platform during one of the TV debates and she said time and time
:59:33. > :59:35.again that if the people of Scotland didn't want a referendum, there
:59:36. > :59:38.would not be won. If they hadn't changed their mind, she wouldn't
:59:39. > :59:42.have a right to call one, and they haven't changed their minds. The S
:59:43. > :59:48.said they have it in their manifesto, they won the Scottish
:59:49. > :59:50.elections last year, -- the SNP. What are you saying? Are using the
:59:51. > :59:55.opinion polls have to go different way? They had conditional statement
:59:56. > :00:00.in the manifesto, they lost their majority. They also told the public
:00:01. > :00:05.that if there wasn't a change in public will for this, then they
:00:06. > :00:09.wouldn't drag us now. Also, we saw in 2011 what public consent looked
:00:10. > :00:12.like, we saw that there was broad agreement across all parties, even
:00:13. > :00:15.people like Kezia Dugdale and myself, recognise there was a
:00:16. > :00:21.mandate for a referendum and voted for it. You're not suggesting that
:00:22. > :00:24.the SNP don't have legitimacy in arguing for another referendum
:00:25. > :00:27.unless you agree with it? They will argue for another referendum until
:00:28. > :00:34.the cows come home. You as them any question at all, and their answers
:00:35. > :00:38.are always independence. They have a mandate for it. I don't accept when
:00:39. > :00:41.they do. When you lose your majority, when you have a
:00:42. > :00:46.conditional statement in your manifesto... They won the election.
:00:47. > :00:49.Not only did they sign an agreement that said, you know, we won't come
:00:50. > :00:52.back here, we will respect the result, there are clearly not
:00:53. > :00:55.respecting it. They also said, Nicola Sturgeon of the people of
:00:56. > :00:59.Scotland in the eye and said if there wasn't a change in public
:01:00. > :01:02.opinion, she wouldn't drag us back there. And she is dragging us back
:01:03. > :01:06.there, and I will stop out. People out there will help me stop by
:01:07. > :01:13.voting for my party. Let's say you achieved your dream, and you are in
:01:14. > :01:16.a position to become First Minister. Let's say the Scottish Conservatives
:01:17. > :01:19.got the number of seats and MSPs that the SNP got last year. And you
:01:20. > :01:23.had something in your manifesto that you wanted to implement, and
:01:24. > :01:27.everyone else turned round and said, "Even though you've won, almost an
:01:28. > :01:32.absolute but not quite majority, you've got no mandate for that." You
:01:33. > :01:40.before US, the first person saying that is attack Dhaka you would be
:01:41. > :01:46.furious. So attacks on democracy are OK? You have to have a variety of
:01:47. > :01:49.opinion, there has to be political and public consent. You said last
:01:50. > :01:52.year that if the Scottish parliament voted for another referendum, the UK
:01:53. > :01:56.Government should not stand on its way. I have never said it should be
:01:57. > :02:00.denied. That's a direct quote. I did and said the last time either in
:02:01. > :02:04.2014. Why have you changed your mind? The Prime Minister and myself
:02:05. > :02:08.and the Secretary of State have said exactly the same thing. This is the
:02:09. > :02:16.criteria... Had never said the UK Parliament should deny the Scottish
:02:17. > :02:18.parliament the right. You decide there's never going to be another
:02:19. > :02:22.referendum ever again. There cannot be one when the people of Scotland
:02:23. > :02:25.do not what the options look like. Nor should there be one when the
:02:26. > :02:28.people of Scotland don't want one. It is very clear that the people of
:02:29. > :02:32.Scotland don't want one, that's why you're seeing some of the panic
:02:33. > :02:36.reactions is become the SNP, because they are realising they started the
:02:37. > :02:40.campaign putting independence at the heart of it, but now they're talking
:02:41. > :02:43.about it less because they know the people of Scotland are telling them
:02:44. > :02:47.to fix our schools and hospitals, and stop dragging it appears we
:02:48. > :02:51.don't want to go. I accept this is not you, there cannot be another
:02:52. > :02:55.referendum until the Brexit prices have played out. What does that
:02:56. > :02:59.mean? Until we know how it works on the ground. There will be a primary
:03:00. > :03:06.transfer of powers as we leave the EU from Brussels to Westminster. But
:03:07. > :03:09.there's also then going to be secondary transfer of powers to the
:03:10. > :03:15.devolved administrations, and even to local authorities in England, to.
:03:16. > :03:20.It has played out. Does that mean to note the final Brexit deal is, or a
:03:21. > :03:24.period after that? And we know how it's working out in practice? This
:03:25. > :03:29.is in response to Nicola Sturgeon, who is promoting this. The day after
:03:30. > :03:31.the Brexit Road, she stood up and said she had already instructed
:03:32. > :03:39.civil servants to draw up the legislation for a referendum. She
:03:40. > :03:44.wants her initial ask, was to have it within 16 months' time. We will
:03:45. > :03:47.know that by 2019. We will know what the focus of the deal is, we won't
:03:48. > :03:52.know the secondary transfer of powers. I have to say, a lot of
:03:53. > :03:55.people out there agree with me that we need to make sure we get this
:03:56. > :03:58.right. One way about getting it right is having different nations
:03:59. > :04:04.within the United Kingdom pulling apart just at the point the country
:04:05. > :04:07.needs to pull together to get a good deal on Brexit. Can you see the
:04:08. > :04:11.conditions that the Conservative Party bows UK wide and in the
:04:12. > :04:15.Scottish manifesto had laid down for another Scottish referendum being
:04:16. > :04:20.met before the next Scottish elections in 2021? I'm not going to
:04:21. > :04:25.absolutely, I'm not going to advocate for this to be held, not
:04:26. > :04:29.within the next generation, which is what the people of this country were
:04:30. > :04:35.promised. You have accepted that the SNP have some sort of mandate,
:04:36. > :04:38.you're not just saying no. It's a weak mandate. Can you see the
:04:39. > :04:43.conditions you have laid down in your manifesto being met before
:04:44. > :04:50.2021? With the current trajectory of support in this country going down
:04:51. > :04:53.for an under per -- for another referendum, I don't see it. The
:04:54. > :04:57.people don't want it, I'm going to stand up for them. At the moment,
:04:58. > :05:00.with the trajectory have seen over the last two years, there is no
:05:01. > :05:04.support for another independence referendum, it doesn't look like
:05:05. > :05:07.there will be support for it. As we see from Nicola Sturgeon trying
:05:08. > :05:13.quietly this week to did independence, as a campaigning
:05:14. > :05:16.tool... And your critics, not just the SNP will say again, you are
:05:17. > :05:19.tampering with democracy. What you're trying to do is put things
:05:20. > :05:23.off until after the next Scottish election in the hope that the SNP
:05:24. > :05:29.mandate runs out and they don't have a majority from their position.
:05:30. > :05:35.People know where the parties stand. Jeremy Corbyn says he is fine with
:05:36. > :05:39.another independence referendum. We've spoken to the Labour party
:05:40. > :05:44.leader in Scotland who is blocking deals in local government with a
:05:45. > :05:51.tourist or she can prop up and put the SNP in power. She says it is
:05:52. > :05:55.fine for her MSPs to campaign for independence. If you want to stop
:05:56. > :06:00.this, help me. I'm telling people at home help me stop this. Kezia
:06:01. > :06:08.Dugdale did go back on that. Should Nicola Sturgeon be given a seat at
:06:09. > :06:11.the Brexit talks? I want there to be work putting from Scotland which is
:06:12. > :06:15.why I've been helping facilitate people... She wants to be in the
:06:16. > :06:19.talks. Nicola Sturgeon wants Scotland to be out of the UK but in
:06:20. > :06:23.Europe so if she wants to sit at the table, which side of the table does
:06:24. > :06:30.she want to sit out? If you does not the UK to exist and Scotland back
:06:31. > :06:36.in? You say you are open to a review of the week clause. And you faced
:06:37. > :06:40.criticism for not calling for such a review to take place would you like
:06:41. > :06:45.to take the opportunity to rectify that call for a review of how it
:06:46. > :06:50.operates in practice? We've got to see how it in practice. You'd call
:06:51. > :06:53.on Theresa May to institute such a review? We haven't seen it work
:06:54. > :06:58.because it's just been brought in but this is a system and we've got
:06:59. > :07:02.to make clear... So, how are you open to a review? People have made
:07:03. > :07:05.criticisms of this and let me address them because this is a
:07:06. > :07:10.sensitive issue. This is about making sure people who have had
:07:11. > :07:13.children in the worst of circumstances get extra help so that
:07:14. > :07:23.there is a policy that has been brought in that says for the first
:07:24. > :07:26.to make children you don't. So people within the benefit system,
:07:27. > :07:30.they face the same questions. They are right to be exceptions of that,
:07:31. > :07:33.people who have had children born out of rape, this is getting them
:07:34. > :07:40.extra help. The criticism has been about how that is done. The system
:07:41. > :07:43.adopted by the DWP is the same system of having a third-party
:07:44. > :07:47.professional fill out the form in the same way that has cross-party
:07:48. > :07:51.support for domestic violence victims. If that can be improved and
:07:52. > :07:55.people have suggested before it was ruled out but it could let's have a
:07:56. > :07:58.look at that. That is what I have said. So if we see there are
:07:59. > :08:04.problems and complications once it is rolled out, we can review that I
:08:05. > :08:12.am open to that. Why not just oppose the underlying policy of restricting
:08:13. > :08:19.benefits to two children? You've defied Theresa May on winter fuel
:08:20. > :08:22.payments. There are many pensioners who are getting the winter fuel
:08:23. > :08:26.payment who can afford it. There are strong arguments to giving benefits
:08:27. > :08:32.to people with extra children, especially when we have a declining
:08:33. > :08:36.population. It seems an anti-Tory policies. To be fair this isn't
:08:37. > :08:40.about child benefit. You get child benefit how many children you have.
:08:41. > :08:44.You get the same benefit for your tenth as for your first, this is
:08:45. > :08:49.about child tax credit services about the same decisions for
:08:50. > :08:56.people... Why not say it is wrong? It is about making a fair system...
:08:57. > :09:00.Why is it right to restrict tax credits to children but wrong to
:09:01. > :09:04.means test winter fuel benefits? Well, Gordon, there are questions
:09:05. > :09:07.you have to ask when you start a family and your income doesn't go up
:09:08. > :09:11.automatically if you have another child and some of the questions that
:09:12. > :09:15.are being asked are the same for people not in that situation. In
:09:16. > :09:18.terms of the choice I made on devolution of winter fuel payments,
:09:19. > :09:23.if you want to speak about that, this is about the envelope.
:09:24. > :09:27.Millionaires get winter fuel benefits but poor people with more
:09:28. > :09:31.than two children don't get tax credits with yellow no, the decision
:09:32. > :09:35.my colleagues down south have made is all people over a certain age
:09:36. > :09:39.have help with their heating and fuel. They're going to means test
:09:40. > :09:44.that the money saved will be reinvested into social care. I'm
:09:45. > :09:47.choosing to say that within that envelope, and there is no extra
:09:48. > :09:51.investment either side of the border, to keep that with people who
:09:52. > :09:57.are over certain age to have that what they always wanted and what
:09:58. > :10:01.I've had before. Income tax. You want the rates to be seen in
:10:02. > :10:06.Scotland as an England rather than messing about with them, don't you?
:10:07. > :10:10.Yes. Given there is no commitment to not raising income tax in the Tory
:10:11. > :10:14.manifesto, if they raise it, will you support a rise in income tax in
:10:15. > :10:19.Scotland? There are no plans to raise that in the Conservative
:10:20. > :10:24.manifesto. It is not ruled out. Saying we've designated the skies
:10:25. > :10:32.green is not ruled out, either. So, Tories pledging no new taxes is
:10:33. > :10:35.normal and it is not there. We have raised the threshold for the lowest
:10:36. > :10:38.earners, we have a situation where Scotland is a contracting economy
:10:39. > :10:41.one quarter of a from recession. We shouldn't have higher taxes here
:10:42. > :10:43.because it is bad for the Scottish economy is. Thank you very much,
:10:44. > :10:44.Ruth Davidson. Well, listening to those interviews
:10:45. > :10:47.with Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson was our Political
:10:48. > :10:55.Editor Brian Taylor. What you make of the dynamic? The
:10:56. > :10:59.two elements coming from your interviews there, the Constitution,
:11:00. > :11:03.both independence and Brexit, and always the economy. You have a
:11:04. > :11:10.situation where you have the Labour Party and SNP competing as to who is
:11:11. > :11:14.the best to counter what they characterise as austerity policies
:11:15. > :11:19.and competing with the page they are putting forward to the electorate. I
:11:20. > :11:22.was struck by Ruth Davidson's remarks she didn't expect a
:11:23. > :11:27.referendum along any time soon, given that is at least partly in the
:11:28. > :11:32.hands of the UK Conservative leadership. She also said, didn't
:11:33. > :11:36.she, not before 2021, which is when the mandate the Scottish government
:11:37. > :11:41.have got runs out. Should try to avoid saying there's precise dates.
:11:42. > :11:45.She was saying allow Brexit to happen and then allow the roll-out
:11:46. > :11:48.of Brexit to happen. That is the return of domestic powers to
:11:49. > :11:53.Westminster in the first place and ultimately to Holyrood as well. That
:11:54. > :11:57.will take some time, that will really take quite some time. I cast
:11:58. > :12:01.my mind back to the period when this policy was launched by the Prime
:12:02. > :12:04.Minister, just a short time before that there was a short news
:12:05. > :12:08.conference with David Mundell and Ruth Davidson. David Mundell was
:12:09. > :12:15.keen to say we're not saying no, we're not saying never, we might get
:12:16. > :12:20.to this. He was stressing not now but he was not now, not never. Ruth
:12:21. > :12:26.Davidson was saying, I don't see this coming any time soon. Remember,
:12:27. > :12:29.also, in her introduction to the Scottish Labour manifesto, Kezia
:12:30. > :12:33.Dugdale use the phrase Labour would never be in favour of getting that
:12:34. > :12:39.way. What she was doing there was attempting to use a degree of
:12:40. > :12:44.certainty, whereas you rightly pointed out they had a fair degree
:12:45. > :12:51.of vacillation before that. The SNP are the only party to produce a
:12:52. > :12:56.manifesto. Everything has been dominated by security, because of
:12:57. > :12:59.Manchester. It has become Corbyn versus May and the SNP need to punch
:13:00. > :13:06.through that, breakthrough and get a hearing. I mean, we have in the
:13:07. > :13:09.coming week the Scottish Greens and the Scottish Liberal Democrats
:13:10. > :13:12.publishing their manifesto. The Scottish Greens standing in three
:13:13. > :13:21.constituencies, the Liberal Democrats are taking account of the
:13:22. > :13:25.devolved powers. The SNP due to publish their manifesto on Tuesday.
:13:26. > :13:29.They are fighting on a series of fronts, the primary one on the
:13:30. > :13:33.anti-austerity, anti-Tory pitch, they are the ones to stop...
:13:34. > :13:37.Presuming there is a Tory victory, they are the ones to defend
:13:38. > :13:41.Scotland's interests in those circumstances. Labour are seeking to
:13:42. > :13:43.remove that from their stance. Thank you very much indeed for that.
:13:44. > :13:47.I'll be back at the same time next week.
:13:48. > :14:07.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:08. > :14:12.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.