:00:37. > :00:38.Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Not good enough - that is Theresa May's
:00:42. > :00:45.own verdict on the response to the Grenfell Tower fire,
:00:46. > :00:48.but that is also what a growing number are saying about her
:00:49. > :00:52.Having failed to win a majority, Mrs May will face a daily battle
:00:53. > :00:57.to win the votes she needs in Parliament, which is maybe why
:00:58. > :01:00.the new Leader of the Commons has already cancelled next year's
:01:01. > :01:08.And Labour are claiming the Government isn't legitimate.
:01:09. > :01:10.Have they forgotten that, despite defying
:01:11. > :01:13.all expectations in the election, they didn't actually win?
:01:14. > :01:15.He's back and, this time, he's not alone.
:01:16. > :01:19.So, how in tune is David Mundell with the new Scottish intake and how
:01:20. > :01:21.much sway are they likely to have on a beleaguered
:01:22. > :01:32.And with me to discuss all of that and more,
:01:33. > :01:36.three journalists who always defy expectations - Steve Richards,
:01:37. > :01:38.Julia Hartley-Brewer, and Tom Newton Dunn.
:01:39. > :01:43.And they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:44. > :01:45.Theresa May's authority was already in freefall even
:01:46. > :01:48.before her faltering handling of the appalling disaster
:01:49. > :01:53.Yesterday she admitted the official response had not been good enough.
:01:54. > :01:59.This morning's front pages, as well as reflecting the full
:02:00. > :02:01.horror of that tragedy, are also full of claims
:02:02. > :02:03.that her critics are circling and ready to pounce,
:02:04. > :02:10.though none, as yet, have come out publicly.
:02:11. > :02:12.Her Chancellor, Philip Hammond, was asked about the Prime Minister's
:02:13. > :02:16.position on the Andrew Marr Show earlier.
:02:17. > :02:23.I think what the country needs now is a period of calm while we get on
:02:24. > :02:26.with the job in hand. We've got some very serious issues to address,
:02:27. > :02:32.including the Brexit negotiations are just starting. Theresa is
:02:33. > :02:36.leading the Government and I think the Government needs to get on with
:02:37. > :02:39.his job. The you know what? I think that is what most people in the
:02:40. > :02:44.country will think - the Government needs to get on with the day job of
:02:45. > :02:51.Government. Get on with the day job, Tom - is that what they are saying
:02:52. > :02:54.in private? Some are. I was at lunch with a minister on Thursday who
:02:55. > :02:58.said, we need to get this thing sorted now because if we go one like
:02:59. > :03:01.this with the Prime Minister without any power at all, we will end up in
:03:02. > :03:05.a John Major situation and it will only get worse. Talking to people
:03:06. > :03:10.this week, I don't think that is the predominant view. That seems to be
:03:11. > :03:14.that she has to stay for the time being, at least until conference,
:03:15. > :03:17.and possibly as far as the end of the Brexit negotiations, because
:03:18. > :03:23.there is no real alternative, no obvious person who can come in. The
:03:24. > :03:25.last thing they want to do now is have an unbelievably divisive
:03:26. > :03:30.leadership contest and rip up the very thin consensus that currently
:03:31. > :03:35.still exist on Brexit and go back to square one. Journalist in London are
:03:36. > :03:42.now searching for whom Tom had lunch with on Thursday. Julia, is that
:03:43. > :03:45.sustainable in public? The Prime Minister's authority was already in
:03:46. > :03:51.free fall and she has not handled this disaster well. After the 1922
:03:52. > :03:55.committee meeting, they said, she handled this well and can handle
:03:56. > :04:03.this stuff. It was astoundingly poorly handled. Both practically and
:04:04. > :04:07.in terms of PR. The question is, is she capable of changing and behaving
:04:08. > :04:15.in a different way? Her selling point running for the leadership
:04:16. > :04:22.was, I don't do emotion and I am steady as she goes. It has not been,
:04:23. > :04:24.so if you don't have the touchy-feely Tony Blair David
:04:25. > :04:28.Cameron stuff, and you don't have strong and stable, you are kind of
:04:29. > :04:34.left with nothing. It's not that people don't want her, they just
:04:35. > :04:43.don't want the alternative. Steve, you have studied and lived through
:04:44. > :04:49.many of these situations that cannot go on, but often it does. For one
:04:50. > :04:52.thing, there is a fear of an early election, where MPs will think, we
:04:53. > :04:58.might lose our seats, so we must stop that from happening. Fear the
:04:59. > :05:09.leadership contest by which some freakish sequence they elect another
:05:10. > :05:16.dud. 74-79, Gordon Brown after the nonelection, and he survived several
:05:17. > :05:21.coups. This is a hung parliament where she has lost an overall
:05:22. > :05:26.majority, and I think there are questions about whether she herself
:05:27. > :05:30.is ready for the mountainous, daunting assent to come. One of the
:05:31. > :05:35.reasons that Gordon Brown succeeded and carried on, Steve, was that
:05:36. > :05:40.other people concluded they might not be better at the big job in
:05:41. > :05:44.hand, then the economic crisis. Is there a chance that now, for all the
:05:45. > :05:51.criticism of her, people say, know what, she is the best handle Brexit?
:05:52. > :05:55.They want her to carry the can for Brexit and everything. No one wants
:05:56. > :06:01.the leadership, whether it is Boris Johnson, David Davis or anyone else,
:06:02. > :06:05.unless they can ride up on their white steed and save the day. Also,
:06:06. > :06:10.Brexit will not be the most beautiful experience. There will be
:06:11. > :06:14.compromises and pain. A lot of people think, we will get her to
:06:15. > :06:19.sign the ?50 billion cheque, someone else can come in on a white horse
:06:20. > :06:23.and save the day. Bets from journalists are not a clever thing
:06:24. > :06:28.to do, but are you all saying that you think she will survive for some
:06:29. > :06:34.time? I think she will, but I'm not sure how long. Philip Hammond didn't
:06:35. > :06:38.answer the question because he doesn't know either. I think she
:06:39. > :06:44.will for some time. A week ago, I thought there would be an election
:06:45. > :06:46.in the autumn. I didn't make a prediction of the election outcome,
:06:47. > :06:52.so I didn't get it wrong, but I didn't get it right either. If she
:06:53. > :06:54.doesn't screw up, she will probably last until the end of Brexit. For
:06:55. > :06:57.the moment, thank you very much. Theresa May's failure to win
:06:58. > :07:00.a majority after a disastrous election campaign has
:07:01. > :07:02.left her critics returning to that famous phrase once used
:07:03. > :07:04.by Norman Lamont to describe John Major - in office,
:07:05. > :07:06.but not in power. Short of MPs and shorn
:07:07. > :07:08.of her closest advisers, she now faces a disgruntled party,
:07:09. > :07:12.an emboldened opposition, the start of Brexit negotiations and,
:07:13. > :07:19.as we've been saying, claims that she has mishandled
:07:20. > :07:21.a national crisis. When Theresa May finally visited
:07:22. > :07:23.residents at the scene of the Grenfell Tower fire,
:07:24. > :07:26.she was jeered by some residents, Many questions have been raised,
:07:27. > :07:32.of course, about successive Governments' approach to fire
:07:33. > :07:35.regulation, as well as the speed and scale of the official
:07:36. > :07:39.response to the disaster. This crisis comes at a time
:07:40. > :07:42.when the Prime Minister is still trying to construct
:07:43. > :07:46.a Commons majority by securing the support of the ten MPs
:07:47. > :07:48.of Northern Ireland's The DUP is demanding more funding
:07:49. > :07:52.for Northern Ireland and is thought to want a series of Conservative
:07:53. > :08:04.manifesto promises dropped. This means that Wednesday's Queen's
:08:05. > :08:06.Speech, when the Government sets out its plans for the year, will -
:08:07. > :08:09.in the words of one Controversial plans like reversing
:08:10. > :08:13.the ban on opening new grammar schools, ending free lunches
:08:14. > :08:15.at English primary schools, and the scheme designed to reform
:08:16. > :08:17.social care funding are all likely to be scaled down or
:08:18. > :08:20.dropped altogether. The Government has scrapped next
:08:21. > :08:26.year's Queen's speech and is planning a rare
:08:27. > :08:31.two-year Parliament say the Government
:08:32. > :08:34.is running scared. Because, of course, what hangs over
:08:35. > :08:36.everything the Government now does is the small matter
:08:37. > :08:39.of negotiating our way out Well, to discuss all of this,
:08:40. > :08:49.I'm joined by the newly appointed leader of the Commons,
:08:50. > :08:58.Andrea Leadsom. Good morning, and thanks for coming
:08:59. > :09:05.on the programme. The election seems a lifetime ago, but then, the
:09:06. > :09:07.Conservative Party promised strong and stable leadership. It's not
:09:08. > :09:13.unreasonable to say that you don't look strong or stable and there's
:09:14. > :09:17.not a lot of leadership. The last couple of weeks have been extremely
:09:18. > :09:21.devastating, and I think the real focus of the Government over the
:09:22. > :09:26.last week since that awful tragedy at Grenfell Tower has been trying to
:09:27. > :09:30.ensure that everything is being done for the victims. I know there has
:09:31. > :09:33.been a big narrative about what could have been done better and so
:09:34. > :09:37.on, but in truth, the Prime Minister has had a job to do, and she really
:09:38. > :09:43.has focused on trying to make sure that the residents are taking care
:09:44. > :09:46.of, and that's got to be the priority. Why did you go and meet
:09:47. > :09:51.them to hear their anger and pain but she initially did not? I was
:09:52. > :09:55.there as the new Leader of the House of Commons and had helped to arrange
:09:56. > :10:00.an emergency briefing for MPs and peers the previous day, and it was
:10:01. > :10:05.so apparent how desperately moved and sympathetic and distraught all
:10:06. > :10:09.MPs were, right across the House. Which raises the question of why the
:10:10. > :10:20.Prime Minister did not go. She had a job to do. Too busy? No, but she
:10:21. > :10:24.needed to ensure that what the residents needed, sorting out bank
:10:25. > :10:27.accounts, mobile phones, trauma counselling and accommodation, she
:10:28. > :10:32.was trying to get a handle on all of that to make sure that those things
:10:33. > :10:35.were taking care of. She issued a statement yesterday saying the
:10:36. > :10:41.response was not good enough. The one nudges and winks from her
:10:42. > :10:45.advisers that it was not done properly. Do you think the Prime
:10:46. > :10:49.Minister did not get this right? I think we are all very conscious that
:10:50. > :10:55.the support wasn't good enough in the first couple of days. Obviously,
:10:56. > :11:01.all local councils are geared up to try and deal with the relief from
:11:02. > :11:06.disasters such as this, but this is unprecedented, this is absolutely
:11:07. > :11:10.harrowing, and I know that the council did everything they could
:11:11. > :11:15.with massive support. People are furious, and with good reason. I
:11:16. > :11:19.hear you say that you understand and you feel people's pain. The Prime
:11:20. > :11:25.Minister was busy, the council did their bit, so who got it wrong?
:11:26. > :11:30.Someone has to be held responsible. Absolutely right, and as I am trying
:11:31. > :11:33.to explain, the council really... And I rang the chief executive to
:11:34. > :11:38.try and give specific feedback from some of the residents. He was
:11:39. > :11:42.absolutely trying to put the right people in place to deal with that.
:11:43. > :11:46.We had a lot of feedback from community leaders. So the council
:11:47. > :11:49.would be replaced? We are hearing talk of someone being drafted in to
:11:50. > :11:54.replace them because they are not doing well enough. The Prime
:11:55. > :11:57.Minister has decided to bring in very experienced civil servants to
:11:58. > :12:00.improve and to add to the resources of the local council so that issues
:12:01. > :12:05.can be addressed much more quickly and with greater experience and
:12:06. > :12:09.precision, quite rightly. Part of the problem with what may have led
:12:10. > :12:15.to the fire and what is happening now is that no one thinks anyone is
:12:16. > :12:20.in charge. When you talk about who could is -- who keeps people save,
:12:21. > :12:24.is it the council, the people who manage the block, is at the fire
:12:25. > :12:31.brigade, the people who inspect the work, the Government? No one knows
:12:32. > :12:35.who is in charge. In this specific case, the Prime Minister is now in
:12:36. > :12:39.charge of the committee that is bringing together all necessary
:12:40. > :12:43.resources, but I think you make a very good question, Nick - we do
:12:44. > :12:48.need to understand better how we can ensure that this just cannot happen
:12:49. > :12:52.again. By clear lines of responsibility. This is horrific.
:12:53. > :12:59.Yes, all those lessons need to be learnt about if I may, there are two
:13:00. > :13:03.aspects: Dealing with the very real, pressing, urgent needs of those
:13:04. > :13:06.poor, absolutely horrified and traumatised victims, and then this
:13:07. > :13:10.bigger question about who should be in charge and where the buck stops
:13:11. > :13:15.and who should be in control. They are two separate issues. When you
:13:16. > :13:24.hear the rage, and it is rage can I ask a personal question? Do you feel
:13:25. > :13:29.shame as a politician? Of course. We all think, what could we have done
:13:30. > :13:34.or should we have done? It's just unbearable. You know, this cannot
:13:35. > :13:38.happen in the 21st century, and yet it has. If it weren't for this, this
:13:39. > :13:42.would still be a huge week in politics, with the Queen 's speech
:13:43. > :13:45.coming, a new parliament, and you have been appointed Leader of the
:13:46. > :13:50.Commons, in charge of Government business. Why have you already,
:13:51. > :13:55.almost your first act as Leader of the Commons, scrapped the next Queen
:13:56. > :14:02.'s speech, next year's, to make sure that the parliament last for two
:14:03. > :14:07.years and not one, unusually? It happened in 2005 and 2010. It didn't
:14:08. > :14:11.happen during the war or during other crises. It is the rate of
:14:12. > :14:15.legislation rather than crises. There is a lot of legislation to go
:14:16. > :14:19.through. And we're leaving the EU at the end of March 2019, so having a
:14:20. > :14:24.two-year period in which to bring together parliament and Government
:14:25. > :14:28.to really make progress with legislation that is essential to
:14:29. > :14:31.making a real success of Brexit, there are some big advantages, it's
:14:32. > :14:36.all a bit technical, but as you will know, select committees don't have
:14:37. > :14:39.to ditch enquiries, bills don't have to be carried forward, and there
:14:40. > :14:44.will be more Parliamentary time for scrutiny... The advantages, you
:14:45. > :14:48.don't have to risk another Queen 's speech which you might lose. In
:14:49. > :14:51.other words, having two years makes it just a little bit easier for the
:14:52. > :14:57.Government to survive than it might otherwise be.
:14:58. > :15:04.I want to be clear, that is not any reason for doing this. There are
:15:05. > :15:10.plenty of opportunities if you want to speculate on problems for the
:15:11. > :15:17.Government. The point about this two year Parliament is it enables us to
:15:18. > :15:22.get the work of leaving the EU done, but the same time we have a
:15:23. > :15:25.legislative programme to tackle the issues of inequality, lack of
:15:26. > :15:30.opportunity, and we want to have a good run at that at this difficult
:15:31. > :15:36.time. You have yet to unveil the deal with the DUP, I assume we will
:15:37. > :15:41.see that tomorrow, we do, how many parts of the manifesto will have to
:15:42. > :15:48.be ditched? There are lengthy conversations now with the DUP and
:15:49. > :15:53.we share a number of interests in common, ensuring we make a success
:15:54. > :15:59.of Brexit and there's no hard border between the Republic of Ireland and
:16:00. > :16:02.Northern Ireland. They will brace against hard austerity, so some of
:16:03. > :16:07.the tough things you're doing in your manifesto like scrapping all
:16:08. > :16:11.meals in England for example, changing the social care system,
:16:12. > :16:16.ending the winter fuel allowance for some people, they will go, won't
:16:17. > :16:21.they? We don't ever talk about the Queen's speech in advance, the Queen
:16:22. > :16:25.will make those announcements on Wednesday. I'm preparing people for
:16:26. > :16:30.the fact that some of the things you said in the manifesto will have to
:16:31. > :16:37.go? The issue is that we have an enormous job to do to make a success
:16:38. > :16:41.of Brexit and we have huge ambitions for a social, domestic legislative
:16:42. > :16:45.programme that will improve life opportunities and reduce
:16:46. > :16:51.inequalities in this nation. Is that's a long winded way of saying
:16:52. > :16:57.yes? We will prioritise those things. You went to the country and
:16:58. > :17:01.Theresa May went to the country asking for a Brexit mandate and you
:17:02. > :17:10.didn't get one, the country didn't give you a majority. As one of the
:17:11. > :17:16.leading campaigners for Leave, does that make you conclude something has
:17:17. > :17:20.to change? Overrated percent voted for parties who stood on manifestos
:17:21. > :17:26.for leaving the EU so I don't recognise what you say that we don't
:17:27. > :17:30.have a mandate for Brexit. We do. At the referendum last year and also
:17:31. > :17:34.the results of the general election. As I say, over 80% of people voting
:17:35. > :17:39.for parties that will respect the result of the referendum. Had on
:17:40. > :17:43.television this morning Kier Starmer of the Labour Party saying he wanted
:17:44. > :17:53.to stay in the customs union, in other words you may have a majority
:17:54. > :17:55.for the headlines, but the detail there is no majority for, no
:17:56. > :18:00.agreement on and what I'm really asking you is whether you will have
:18:01. > :18:04.to reach out to find that sort of agreement. In my new job as Leader
:18:05. > :18:10.of the House of Commons, it will be important to listen to all members
:18:11. > :18:14.right across The House, but I think it is extremely clear that in
:18:15. > :18:19.leaving the EU we will be taking back control of our laws, our
:18:20. > :18:25.borders, our money, and that means leaving the single market, it means
:18:26. > :18:29.giving up on free movement. It means taking back those laws, putting them
:18:30. > :18:38.into UK law and being able to change them. If it takes time, in other
:18:39. > :18:42.words if that is the agreed and objective but to take some time and
:18:43. > :18:46.the Chancellor says, you know what, we need two or three years for
:18:47. > :18:56.business to be clear, for there to be no so-called cliff edges, do you
:18:57. > :19:01.say you have the time? The negotiation begins tomorrow. It is
:19:02. > :19:07.going to be very, you know, strong on all sides, but certainly my
:19:08. > :19:11.experience from talking to other EU politicians is that they absolutely
:19:12. > :19:18.recognise the desire as we do for a strong partnership and for there to
:19:19. > :19:23.be low tariff... I asked about time, and the reason is let's not use the
:19:24. > :19:29.word speculation, the Chancellor on the television this morning said
:19:30. > :19:33.time, no cliff edges, time. Where you have politicians across the EU
:19:34. > :19:40.and the UK who share the desire for a successful outcome with lower
:19:41. > :19:43.tariffs, zero nontariff barriers, free trade between ourselves, it
:19:44. > :19:49.should be possible to meet the time frame. In other words no
:19:50. > :19:55.transitional arrangements? I am extremely optimistic there is a lot
:19:56. > :19:59.we can agree on. I am just saying to you, my expectation is there will be
:20:00. > :20:03.a lot we can agree on and that will facilitate a smooth transition. It
:20:04. > :20:07.is clear Theresa May will not be running as your leader at the next
:20:08. > :20:12.general election, so when is the right time for the party to consider
:20:13. > :20:20.who will be leading next? Before or after Brexit? That is absolutely a
:20:21. > :20:25.statement I would reject. You cannot see into the future. We have seen a
:20:26. > :20:29.lot of change in recent weeks and months. The Prime Minister has done
:20:30. > :20:33.a fantastic job in bringing the country back to a good place since
:20:34. > :20:40.she has been the leader and Prime Minister. She is determined to
:20:41. > :20:45.continue... She might lead the party into another election. I don't look
:20:46. > :20:51.into the future. Let's put it another way, do you think there is a
:20:52. > :20:55.chance some of the Conservative will lead the Brexit negotiations? I
:20:56. > :21:02.think the Prime Minister will lead the Brexit negotiations. She has led
:21:03. > :21:09.preparations extremely well and determinedly on behalf of the whole
:21:10. > :21:13.country. And in that two years for the negotiation, it may be in need
:21:14. > :21:18.time to save can look ahead to who our next leader is. I think it is
:21:19. > :21:22.unhelpful to speculate on the future in that way. We need a coming
:21:23. > :21:28.together, a recognition that all people need to have their say, and
:21:29. > :21:33.strong leadership that can take us forward. Theresa May with her
:21:34. > :21:40.Cabinet are determined to provide that. Are you believed you didn't
:21:41. > :21:49.get the job? I supported the Prime Minister. -- are you relieve you
:21:50. > :21:52.didn't get the job? I am completely backing Theresa May as our Prime
:21:53. > :21:58.Minister. Thank you for taking the time to join does.
:21:59. > :22:00.Whilst Theresa May and the Government have been struggling
:22:01. > :22:02.to deal with the disaster at Grenfell Tower, Jeremy Corbyn
:22:03. > :22:05.was hailed by residents after his visit to the area on Thursday.
:22:06. > :22:07.Is Labour properly reflecting and channelling the public's anger,
:22:08. > :22:10.or are they exploiting it - playing political games,
:22:11. > :22:14.I'm joined now by the Shadow Local Government Secretary and Labour's
:22:15. > :22:26.Good morning. There is a lot of anger on the streets, much of it
:22:27. > :22:31.understandable that other people will share, but as the main
:22:32. > :22:37.opposition party, do you have a responsibility to calm it down
:22:38. > :22:43.rather than turn it up? I don't think we are stirring it up, I would
:22:44. > :22:47.hope that we have been fully responsible in reflecting the
:22:48. > :22:53.concerns, the anxieties, the hurt and worry of those residents in
:22:54. > :22:58.Kensington. I want to pay tribute to the community that pulls together in
:22:59. > :23:04.the face of adversity. Can't even begin to think of the pain that
:23:05. > :23:08.people are going through, the hurt that community is going through, and
:23:09. > :23:12.yet they have pulled together to look after one another to do some of
:23:13. > :23:17.the things that statutory authorities should be doing, and I
:23:18. > :23:21.think it is right and proper that we get to the bottom of what has
:23:22. > :23:26.happened in this dreadful tragedy, and make sure we put right
:23:27. > :23:30.everything that needs putting right so we never, ever experienced
:23:31. > :23:36.anything as horrific as this again. I want to talk about how that might
:23:37. > :23:44.be done in a second. You safe Labour are coming down. Clive Lewis tweeted
:23:45. > :23:49.Burn Neo Liberalism not People, do you think that is responsible at a
:23:50. > :23:56.time like this? I think it is important we are measured in our
:23:57. > :24:02.approach here. Is that measured? Clive will answer for what he has
:24:03. > :24:07.tweeted. There is an issue here that we have had seven years of cuts to
:24:08. > :24:11.our public services. Local authorities don't have the resources
:24:12. > :24:18.that they need to be able to provide some of the most basic services. The
:24:19. > :24:23.Fire Service is under resourced as well, and there are issues. This
:24:24. > :24:26.probably isn't the time to go into them, but there are issues that need
:24:27. > :24:30.to be resolved about how we make sure that health and safety
:24:31. > :24:35.regulation isn't seen as a burden on business, isn't seen as unnecessary
:24:36. > :24:40.red tape, it's about saving lives and protecting people. Your
:24:41. > :24:46.implication, almost your statement, is austerity was the reason for the
:24:47. > :24:51.fire. It may turn out to be true, and plenty of people believe it, but
:24:52. > :24:58.what is your evidence for saying austerity caused this fire? I
:24:59. > :25:03.haven't said that. I said there are number of issues here. Health and
:25:04. > :25:08.safety regulation is one, building regulations are another. The role of
:25:09. > :25:11.government is important in this, how local authorities are able to fund
:25:12. > :25:18.under resourced civil contingencies emergency planning. But your leader
:25:19. > :25:24.said if you cut local authority expenditure, the price is paid
:25:25. > :25:28.somehow. The implication was clear that the cuts lead to the fire and
:25:29. > :25:31.it could be that this was bad regulation, it could be that the
:25:32. > :25:36.regulation was fine but not followed, it could be criminal
:25:37. > :25:42.negligence, it may not turn out to be cuts at all. It could be all of
:25:43. > :25:46.those things and the important thing is we get the inquiry. We have as
:25:47. > :25:52.wide as possible terms of reference for the inquiry, we ensure the
:25:53. > :25:56.residents, victims and local community have a full voice in that
:25:57. > :26:01.inquiry and we make sure the actions which are required both that we
:26:02. > :26:06.already know from previous incidents but also the recommendations that,
:26:07. > :26:12.of this inquiry are acted upon. We cannot ever have situation again
:26:13. > :26:17.where we have recommendations from previous reports that have not been
:26:18. > :26:25.acted on by government or local government. There has been a focus
:26:26. > :26:29.of criticism on Kensington Council but there are many Labour councils
:26:30. > :26:35.with this kind of cladding on the residential tower blocks. Do you now
:26:36. > :26:38.know how many it is? No, but we do know every local authority and
:26:39. > :26:43.housing association in the country are now urgently investigating their
:26:44. > :26:48.own housing stock and we very clearly have to know that. I have
:26:49. > :26:57.got tower blocks in my own constituency that have recently been
:26:58. > :27:00.re-clad and I have contacted my housing providers because I want
:27:01. > :27:06.assurances on behalf of my constituents that they are living in
:27:07. > :27:13.safe housing. We understand me that carried out the work in Grenfell
:27:14. > :27:18.also carried out work in Labour run Camden so it's possible this sort of
:27:19. > :27:26.fire, God help us that it doesn't, it might happen in another borough
:27:27. > :27:29.and in an area where the parties opposed to austerity. Absolutely and
:27:30. > :27:35.we have got to make sure we identify precisely which housing stock does
:27:36. > :27:40.not meet modern requirements, does not meet the safety minimum
:27:41. > :27:44.standards, and that we urgently put that right. We cannot ever have a
:27:45. > :27:50.catastrophe like this again, and I have been in this job as shadow
:27:51. > :27:55.community Secretary for four days now. It pains me to see what has
:27:56. > :28:00.happened in Kensington. This is awful, these are human lives and we
:28:01. > :28:05.have got to start treating people and communities with the respect and
:28:06. > :28:08.with the humanity that they deserve. You were careful at the top to say
:28:09. > :28:16.it's important to be responsible, what do you think the fourth of the
:28:17. > :28:24.call for a day of rage, not by the Labour Party, the day of rage on
:28:25. > :28:30.Wednesday and quote, the Tories have blood on their hands? I don't
:28:31. > :28:34.associate myself with those kind of comments. I think if we are going to
:28:35. > :28:38.do something on Wednesday it is a vigil for those people who have lost
:28:39. > :28:44.their lives because this is a tragedy and we cannot ever have that
:28:45. > :28:48.happen again. The reason I ask is John McDonnell, the Shadow
:28:49. > :28:54.Chancellor, said, and I quote, I don't think this Government is a
:28:55. > :28:59.legitimate government. Do you think it is?
:29:00. > :29:06.In the sense that Theresa May went to the country asking for a bigger
:29:07. > :29:09.Parliamentary majority and a mandate from the people, and she came out on
:29:10. > :29:14.the 8th of June with no Parliamentary majority at all, so it
:29:15. > :29:16.does raise questions about the legitimacy of this Government's
:29:17. > :29:22.ability to put forward a programme that they stood for election on.
:29:23. > :29:27.That is a different point. I asked a simple question: Is this a
:29:28. > :29:31.legitimate Government? Did they win more votes and seats under the rules
:29:32. > :29:39.and therefore is your message to anyone taking to the streets to
:29:40. > :29:43.claim that they are not legitimate? We are a democracy, we have
:29:44. > :29:50.elections, and the Conservatives won 42% of the vote in the election. The
:29:51. > :29:57.Tories lost seats, and the Labour Party gain seats. We are in a
:29:58. > :30:02.Parliamentary democracy and we will hold the Government to account for
:30:03. > :30:10.as long as little as it survives. Why did Mr McDonnell not say what
:30:11. > :30:14.you have said, that you will beat them in the House of Commons? He
:30:15. > :30:18.went on to say, we need as many as 1 million people on the streets of
:30:19. > :30:21.London. He wasn't talking about this fire, to be fair, but about a
:30:22. > :30:24.protest planned for the start of July. He said we need a million
:30:25. > :30:32.people on the streets of London to force the Tories out. Is that
:30:33. > :30:34.democracy? Clearly, peaceful demonstration is part of our
:30:35. > :30:38.democratic rights, and people feel very strongly that this Government
:30:39. > :30:42.has lost a mandate because Theresa May went to the country asking for a
:30:43. > :30:47.bigger majority, and the country said no. They took that majority
:30:48. > :30:53.that she had away from her. I want to make sure we hold this Government
:30:54. > :30:57.to account, and at the earliest opportunity defeat this Government
:30:58. > :31:02.so that we can put into practice our positive agenda for a fairer,
:31:03. > :31:04.better, more recall Britain that works for the many, not the few.
:31:05. > :31:05.Thank you for joining us. Will the Government's Brexit
:31:06. > :31:09.plans have to change following the election
:31:10. > :31:11.after they failed to get the mandate Theresa May demanded,
:31:12. > :31:13.leaving them with no Lots of attention has focused
:31:14. > :31:16.on whether Britain's future does lie That makes it easy for firms
:31:17. > :31:22.to trade within the EU, but prevents Britain
:31:23. > :31:25.striking its own free trade deals Let's have a listen
:31:26. > :31:32.to Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, and the Chancellor,
:31:33. > :31:35.Philip Hammond, speaking earlier. Well, I think that should
:31:36. > :31:40.be left on the table. So, we could stay
:31:41. > :31:42.inside the customs union? We are leaving the EU,
:31:43. > :31:46.and because we are leaving the EU we will be leaving the single
:31:47. > :31:49.market, and by the way we will be The question is not whether we are
:31:50. > :31:53.leaving the customs union, the question is what we put
:31:54. > :31:55.in its place in order to deliver the objectives
:31:56. > :32:00.the Prime Minister set out. Well, to see what two
:32:01. > :32:03.people from the world of business make of this,
:32:04. > :32:06.I'm joined by the former director general of the CBI and one-time
:32:07. > :32:10.trade minister Digby Jones, and by the fund manager
:32:11. > :32:22.Nicola Horlick. Good morning to you both. Digby,
:32:23. > :32:27.before we get bogged down in what people should or shouldn't do in the
:32:28. > :32:32.Government, from a business perspective, the customs union -
:32:33. > :32:38.what exactly is it can provide does it matter to businesses? -- what
:32:39. > :32:42.exactly is it and why does it matter to businesses? People are saying we
:32:43. > :32:50.need to stay in the single market, but why then they say the other
:32:51. > :32:57.words - Britain's judges don't have control over the law? The customs
:32:58. > :33:02.union is something where you can be within a trading relationship, not
:33:03. > :33:07.as integrated as the single market, but the big problem we will have
:33:08. > :33:14.coming out of the single market is not tariffs, I don't think, because
:33:15. > :33:21.that will hurt Europe, the problem is the bureaucracy, the regulatory
:33:22. > :33:28.burden of getting goods and services across borders. Crudely, businesses
:33:29. > :33:33.are worried about being delayed on the border by paperwork, deliberate
:33:34. > :33:36.paperwork, perhaps, making it harder for our businesses to do business.
:33:37. > :33:47.That is what the issue is. That is the biggest part. The other part is
:33:48. > :33:51.that you get this sense of being in something, so that investors from
:33:52. > :33:55.Japan, America and China who come to Britain for good reasons get the
:33:56. > :33:59.advantage of being within this trading relationship. There are two
:34:00. > :34:03.big downsides to it. One is that you have to pay money for it. It doesn't
:34:04. > :34:10.come free. There is a check to write. And the second one, the big
:34:11. > :34:14.one, in all my years at the CBI and as a Trade Minister, you find that
:34:15. > :34:17.we are well known for trading openly around the world with good-quality
:34:18. > :34:22.traders will stop we don't do the protectionism of America and France,
:34:23. > :34:23.we are actually good at this. This forbid you from going around the
:34:24. > :34:30.we are actually good at this. This world and dealing with Singapore,
:34:31. > :34:33.America or China, or whoever. You have two at brussels do it and you
:34:34. > :34:37.are forbidden from being part of the global economy. I think that will be
:34:38. > :34:40.the big thing that stops things. Thank you for the moment. Nicola, in
:34:41. > :34:44.the end, if you could get the advantages of a border that was
:34:45. > :34:49.simple to do business across, wouldn't it make sense, as Digby
:34:50. > :34:52.Jones says, to get out of the customs union and be able to trade
:34:53. > :34:58.around the world freely, without waiting for Brussels to do some deal
:34:59. > :35:03.that would take many years? The problem is, striking trade deals
:35:04. > :35:06.takes many years, as we've seen. There are many examples likely where
:35:07. > :35:10.the EU has been trying to negotiate something, or the US has, and it
:35:11. > :35:15.takes years and then sometimes stumbles at the last hurdle. The
:35:16. > :35:20.idea that we can suddenly strike our own trade deals is nonsense, in my
:35:21. > :35:27.view. It will take years. We will be cutting off our nose to spite our
:35:28. > :35:29.face if we shun the EU. There are 500 million people in the EU,
:35:30. > :35:34.including Britain, so it goes down a bit if we come out. The point is, we
:35:35. > :35:39.can trade freely with that block currently with no constraints. You
:35:40. > :35:43.are cheering on Labour's Kia Starmer when he says, we are getting out of
:35:44. > :35:49.the EU, but we might be able to stay in the customs union? As Digby said,
:35:50. > :35:52.if you stay in the customs union, you cannot do your own trade deals.
:35:53. > :35:58.We heard from the Chancellor this morning that there was a middle
:35:59. > :36:01.position, where we get out of the customs union but over a period of
:36:02. > :36:04.years, to stop businesses having the worry is that you set out, there
:36:05. > :36:10.would be some sort of transition. Are you up for that? What business
:36:11. > :36:15.needs is certainty, boring predictability. And the next couple
:36:16. > :36:19.of years are going to deliver precisely the opposite. Anyone who
:36:20. > :36:23.thinks otherwise is for the birds. If it were set out as a timetable
:36:24. > :36:29.and everyone knew that by this date, this date and this date, things will
:36:30. > :36:35.happen, then I am up for that. We have to make sure that people
:36:36. > :36:39.understand, and this is so important, that the European union
:36:40. > :36:44.is big trading bloc, Nicola is right, but it is only one. This is
:36:45. > :36:54.Asia's century, not America's or Europe's. You have Brussels marching
:36:55. > :36:58.valiantly towards 1970. We need to hit our wagon to the world. A civil
:36:59. > :37:02.servant used a phrase many years ago servant used a phrase many years ago
:37:03. > :37:06.- we don't want to chain ourselves to a corpse. He said that about
:37:07. > :37:14.Europe. The future is elsewhere, Nicola? The fact is, it is not only
:37:15. > :37:18.a huge area with 500 million people, but it is also very prosperous. You
:37:19. > :37:21.would have to do an awful lot of trade deals across many territories
:37:22. > :37:25.to actually replicate what we currently have, which is free access
:37:26. > :37:30.to a huge trade block with no constraints, and that has been
:37:31. > :37:34.beneficial to our economy. I want to be clear that you didn't want to
:37:35. > :37:38.leave, and you would love to reverse it now if you could, I suspect, but
:37:39. > :37:42.do you think it is possible to get out as the people voted for, but
:37:43. > :37:49.still have the advantages of the customs union? I think that is very.
:37:50. > :37:54.In or out? Yes. If you look at what happened during the election, there
:37:55. > :37:57.has been a huge thing about 80% of people voting for parties that want
:37:58. > :38:02.a Brexit. I don't think that's true. If you look at what happened, a lot
:38:03. > :38:05.of younger people voted who were expected to vote, and they are
:38:06. > :38:11.certainly not in favour of leaving the EU, the single market, the
:38:12. > :38:15.customs union or any of it. Would be, when you describe the advantages
:38:16. > :38:18.of the customs union, many people watching with thing, and therefore
:38:19. > :38:24.the end of your sentence would be, and that is why we should stay in,
:38:25. > :38:28.but you want to come out - why would you take such a risk? I think the
:38:29. > :38:34.negotiations over the next two years should be unique. We are the fifth
:38:35. > :38:39.or sixth biggest economy on earth. We ought to have a quality
:38:40. > :38:43.relationship with Europe for all the reasons that Nicola has said, and
:38:44. > :38:49.she's right, and at the same time reach out to the world. If it is
:38:50. > :38:53.achievable along with Philip Hammond's idea of feathering over
:38:54. > :38:59.the years, it is in Europe's interests. We need humility and less
:39:00. > :39:05.arrogance, but we have got to get there. Briefly, what is the
:39:06. > :39:10.nightmare, the fear, if we are not in the customs union? I believe it
:39:11. > :39:13.will be very detrimental to our economy, and also one thing: The
:39:14. > :39:20.fact of the matter is that Germany is in the EU. Germany does seven
:39:21. > :39:24.times as much trade with China as we do. The idea that the EU stops as
:39:25. > :39:29.trading with other countries is nonsense. A brief last sentence,
:39:30. > :39:34.Digby. The German example is rubbish. They dominate the EU and
:39:35. > :39:43.they use that as a way of enhancing their competitiveness in China. What
:39:44. > :39:48.is true, and you are right, that is coming out of the customs union done
:39:49. > :39:53.badly willed deny us the access we have spoken of, but done well, it
:39:54. > :39:58.will have the best of both worlds. Thank you both very much indeed.
:39:59. > :40:04.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:05. > :40:09.Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:40:10. > :40:13.the Scottish Secretary is no longer alone.
:40:14. > :40:16.I will be asking David Mundell if the new group of Tories
:40:17. > :40:19.here can find a single voice and make their presence
:40:20. > :40:24.And wholesale reforms to the way our schools are run.
:40:25. > :40:26.I will be asking the Education Secretary whether it is enough
:40:27. > :40:29.to counter the widespread perception that his government
:40:30. > :40:38.Now, the election was great news for the Scottish Tories,
:40:39. > :40:40.but not so much for their colleagues down south.
:40:41. > :40:42.In fact it is largely due to the new block
:40:43. > :40:47.of Scottish Conservative MPs that Theresa May is still maintaining
:40:48. > :40:48.her rather precarious occupation of Downing Street.
:40:49. > :40:55.The Prime Minister has faced furious criticism over her reactionn
:40:56. > :40:57.to the Grenfell Tower fire and there are reports this morning
:40:58. > :41:00.that some Tory backbenchers are plotting to remove her.
:41:01. > :41:02.And the Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond,
:41:03. > :41:05.who reports say would have been sacked had the Conservatives won
:41:06. > :41:06.a handsome majority, is clearly not happy
:41:07. > :41:15.Here is what he told Andrew Marr earlier this morning.
:41:16. > :41:23.It's true that my role in the election campaign was not the one I
:41:24. > :41:27.would have liked it to be. I did a lot of travelling around, I met
:41:28. > :41:30.interesting people and heard interesting stories.
:41:31. > :41:37.I would have liked to make much more of our economic record which I think
:41:38. > :41:42.is an excellent one. The end result is, that in my judgment, we didn't
:41:43. > :41:45.talk about the economy as much as we should have done.
:41:46. > :41:50.Do you think Theresa May recognises that was a mistake?
:41:51. > :41:54.We didn't put enough energy into dismantling Jeremy Corbyn's economic
:41:55. > :41:55.proposals and that would have been catastrophic for the country.
:41:56. > :41:58.I am joined from London now by the Secretary
:41:59. > :42:00.of State for Scotland, David Mundell.
:42:01. > :42:09.First of all, Philip Hammond is clearly unhappy with the way the
:42:10. > :42:13.campaign was run. He said the Conservatives failed to put forward
:42:14. > :42:18.what they see as they are advantages on the economy, failed to take
:42:19. > :42:23.Jeremy Corbyn's deliberate economic posers, do you agree with that?
:42:24. > :42:28.It's self-evident that in England and Wales it wasn't a is accessible
:42:29. > :42:32.campaign. We lost seats, compared to Scotland where we fought our own
:42:33. > :42:36.campaign and picked up those 12 additional seats.
:42:37. > :42:42.I wish it were, themselves, they will be a full drained up as to why
:42:43. > :42:46.the election campaign was not one that resulted in a successful
:42:47. > :42:53.outcome. The outcome the Prime Minister had sought, which was a
:42:54. > :42:57.bigger majority. I'm pleased, as you referenced in the opening, our
:42:58. > :43:02.campaign in Scotland was successful. We focused directly on the issues
:43:03. > :43:06.which were of most concern to people across Scotland.
:43:07. > :43:09.That was taking the issue of a divisive second independence
:43:10. > :43:14.referendum off the table. Sending a clear message to the Scottish
:43:15. > :43:17.Government to get on with the day job.
:43:18. > :43:20.I want to come onto the independence referendum in a moment, but first of
:43:21. > :43:25.all, they're almost certainly is going to be a deal, a confidence to
:43:26. > :43:29.supply deal between your government and the Democratic Unionist Party in
:43:30. > :43:33.Northern Ireland. That will certainly involve extra money being
:43:34. > :43:38.given to Northern Ireland a condition of the deal. Are you happy
:43:39. > :43:44.to prove that extra money, or will you demand a separate deal for
:43:45. > :43:50.Scotland, that it come to Scotland as well?
:43:51. > :43:57.There are rules about funding, if there is additional funding for
:43:58. > :44:01.unauthorised and and it is within the Barnett rules, then additional
:44:02. > :44:05.funding will come to Scotland. That's how the system works. There
:44:06. > :44:09.is a clearly established system in relation to the Barnett rules, they
:44:10. > :44:13.will be followed. Talk is they will find some way of giving money to
:44:14. > :44:19.Northern Ireland outside the Barnett rules in Scotland and Wales, and
:44:20. > :44:25.places in England, won't get it. I be making clear that whatever deal
:44:26. > :44:30.is agreed, or support mechanism, and it is very important we do have as
:44:31. > :44:35.much stability as we can, as we go forward with the new minority
:44:36. > :44:39.government. Any funds go through the appropriate, well-established
:44:40. > :44:43.procedures, and Barnett consequential is due to Scotland,
:44:44. > :44:50.they should be paid to Scotland. Let's be clear on this. Are you
:44:51. > :44:53.saying, if there is any money extra given to Northern Ireland, as a
:44:54. > :44:57.result of the deal with the Conservative Party, the Conservative
:44:58. > :45:01.government, you will want that to come to Scotland, or at least some
:45:02. > :45:07.equivalent to come to Scotland? I want the normal rules in relation
:45:08. > :45:11.to Barnett consequential to apply. I won't support funding which is
:45:12. > :45:15.deliberately sought to subvert the Barnett rules.
:45:16. > :45:19.We have clear rules about funding of different parts of the United
:45:20. > :45:22.Kingdom, those rules will need to apply.
:45:23. > :45:26.And if the funding falls within Barnett consequential is, then it
:45:27. > :45:29.should come to Scotland. They raise other funding, that has
:45:30. > :45:33.been the case over a period of time in Northern Ireland, which looks at
:45:34. > :45:41.the special circumstances of Northern Ireland and, particularly,
:45:42. > :45:43.the Belfast agreement, Good Friday Agreement, which would not be
:45:44. > :45:48.subject... OK, but the problem with that, the
:45:49. > :45:53.problem with that... The problem with that is that many people would
:45:54. > :45:56.say, look, we accept extra money should go to Northern Ireland
:45:57. > :46:00.because of the history on the troubles, that's not what we're
:46:01. > :46:03.talking about here. We are talking about money being given to Northern
:46:04. > :46:07.Ireland simply so that your government can do a deal with the
:46:08. > :46:11.DUP just a year in office. That's not the same thing. Money
:46:12. > :46:15.which goes to Northern Ireland will be the subject of the rules that
:46:16. > :46:18.currently apply in relation to Barnett consequential is.
:46:19. > :46:24.I'm not going to support just giving money to Northern Ireland. I'm going
:46:25. > :46:29.to support funding which, in which, the usual rules and requirements
:46:30. > :46:32.apply. Therefore, if the Barnett consequential supply money will come
:46:33. > :46:39.to Scotland. But you worry powerful bloc now, the
:46:40. > :46:45.Scottish Tories. You're not just David Mandel, the only Conservative
:46:46. > :46:50.MP, you're stepping into the shoes of Malcolm Rifkind, Ian Lang, they
:46:51. > :46:53.would have been in, saying, Prime Minister, I'm sorry, you can't do
:46:54. > :46:58.this in Northern Ireland. You've got to do something by us,
:46:59. > :47:01.even if it's by the back door. We're not doing anything by the back
:47:02. > :47:11.door in Northern Ireland or in Scotland. What we are getting is
:47:12. > :47:16.rules, applicability of rules, that are well-established in relation to
:47:17. > :47:22.Barnett consequential. We, the Conservatives, me, in my period as
:47:23. > :47:25.an MP over 12 years, I stood up to retain the Barnett Formula, against
:47:26. > :47:31.a whole lot of opposition from other parts of the United Kingdom, in
:47:32. > :47:37.particular in the SNP at some point in their history. The Barnett
:47:38. > :47:39.Formula is an extremely good deal for Scotland...
:47:40. > :47:49.Can Theresa May look forward to you having a quiet word?
:47:50. > :47:52.I often have, in my time, Sue David Cameron's premiership, sue Theresa
:47:53. > :47:56.May's premiership had a quiet word with the Prime Minister about issues
:47:57. > :48:02.of importance to Scotland. That's what I'm going to continue to do --
:48:03. > :48:07.through Theresa May's premiership. I believe are doing to the rules of
:48:08. > :48:09.the Barnett Formula is in Scotland's best interests.
:48:10. > :48:14.Given a result of the election I assume your government will continue
:48:15. > :48:20.to refuse a section 30 order so that the Scottish parliament can organise
:48:21. > :48:25.an independence referendum. Yes? Absolutely. We were very clear about
:48:26. > :48:28.our position, it would be unfair to the people of Scotland, and against
:48:29. > :48:35.the principles of the previous referendum to go ahead... In your
:48:36. > :48:39.food... To go ahead with a referendum until a process is played
:48:40. > :48:44.out. In your view should there be no independence referendum before, at
:48:45. > :48:49.least until before the next Scottish elections in 2021?
:48:50. > :48:54.I don't see that the Brexit browsers will have played out by then, I see
:48:55. > :48:57.that the people of Scotland sent it to Mr John B SNP a very clear
:48:58. > :49:04.message in last week's General Election. With a cataclysmic
:49:05. > :49:09.performers of the SNP compared to the 20 15th General Election. They
:49:10. > :49:13.want that threat of an independence referendum taken off the table.
:49:14. > :49:17.Nicola Sturgeon should not be in denial about that.
:49:18. > :49:21.She should wake up, smell be costly, and be clear with the people of
:49:22. > :49:26.Scotland, as members of her own party on indicating, and take the
:49:27. > :49:31.threat of the table. We don't waste so much time and effort talking
:49:32. > :49:36.about an independence referendum. Many people who voted Conservative
:49:37. > :49:39.in Scotland, as you know, who might not normally but Conservative,
:49:40. > :49:43.precisely because they don't want another independence referendum.
:49:44. > :49:55.They may well want something a little bit more definite from you on
:49:56. > :50:01.this. After all, Nicola Sturgeon cannot decide whether they would be
:50:02. > :50:11.an independence referendum before the next Scottish elections, but
:50:12. > :50:21.your Party can. Things could change, but at least till then? I do not
:50:22. > :50:25.think I could be more clear. I do not see any circumstances where
:50:26. > :50:30.there will be an independence referendum before the 2021 Scottish
:50:31. > :50:37.parliament elections. It is up to Nicola Sturgeon to take the issue
:50:38. > :50:47.off the table. She was the one who was calling for it a few hours after
:50:48. > :50:54.the Brexit referendum. She has had her vanity photographs taken signing
:50:55. > :51:00.a letter demanding an independence referendum. What people need to do
:51:01. > :51:05.note is get on with the important job for Scotland is to get the best
:51:06. > :51:12.of the deal for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in the
:51:13. > :51:18.Brexit negotiations. Ruth Davidson said the whole nature of Brexit
:51:19. > :51:26.needs to be reopened that there should be cross-party discussion on
:51:27. > :51:31.this. Will that happen? There has already been cross-party discussion
:51:32. > :51:35.in relation to Scotland. There has been a very accepted dialogue with
:51:36. > :51:38.the Scottish Government. I have been in touch with them since the
:51:39. > :51:45.election. I am committed to carrying on that dialogue. If we can work
:51:46. > :51:48.together, the United Kingdom government and the Scottish
:51:49. > :51:55.Government, that is the bases where we will get the best possible deal,
:51:56. > :52:02.the strongest basis of which we can enter negotiations. Ruth Davidson
:52:03. > :52:11.said she wanted them open Brexit. What is different to that than the
:52:12. > :52:19.Brexit that Theresa May was proposing in her speech at Lancaster
:52:20. > :52:30.house? And what way is it different? What we want to have is a Brexit
:52:31. > :52:34.which is focused on the outcome, the outcome which delivers the best
:52:35. > :52:43.possible result. When Ruth Davidson says she wants an open Brexit, she
:52:44. > :52:49.means exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister said? That is not
:52:50. > :52:58.what I said. She was making clear that as we move forward, we want to
:52:59. > :53:04.have an inclusive approach to the Brexit negotiations. In what way
:53:05. > :53:12.would be different? What we want to do is quick forward, but
:53:13. > :53:17.unfortunately in Scotland, we have got bogged down in the Constitution
:53:18. > :53:25.and the fate of another independence referendum. Although the Scottish,
:53:26. > :53:33.and for a very constructive document. I am just asking what is
:53:34. > :53:37.different from the Brexit proposed by Ruth Davidson and that proposed
:53:38. > :53:43.by the Prime Minister. My responses that in Scotland we get bogged down
:53:44. > :53:47.in the constitutional debate with the threat of another independence
:53:48. > :53:55.referendum and although that was a lot of good work and good ideas and
:53:56. > :54:03.thoughts in the document Scotland's place in Europe, it was ultimately
:54:04. > :54:07.centred on an ideological basis and recovered a separate arrangement for
:54:08. > :54:17.Scotland, which did not stack up. When Ruth Davidson say she wants an
:54:18. > :54:25.open Brexit, if that is the same as Theresa May, does that mean the
:54:26. > :54:29.Scottish Conservatives are committed to no single market, no customs
:54:30. > :54:33.union and no European Court of human justice? The Scottish Conservatives
:54:34. > :54:40.are committed to leaving the European Union. That is the result
:54:41. > :54:44.of the Fort taken across the United Kingdom. The things you are
:54:45. > :54:51.mentioning things that follow from leaving the European Union. We
:54:52. > :55:04.cannot be a member of the single market. What we are looking. Please
:55:05. > :55:08.let me finish. We are running out of time. We want the best possible
:55:09. > :55:11.access to the single market and we want to take on board the issues and
:55:12. > :55:19.concerns that there are in Scotland about ensuring we have the workforce
:55:20. > :55:25.that our economy needs, seasonal labour unskilled labour. We want to
:55:26. > :55:31.take on the issues which have been raised in Scotland and with
:55:32. > :55:35.Scotland. Ruth Davidson said there could be changes in the offer going
:55:36. > :55:53.forward. Could you give me one of them? The offer was not set in stone
:55:54. > :55:58.because... Just give me one change. These negotiations start tomorrow.
:55:59. > :56:01.We want to ensure the rates of European Union citizens in Scotland
:56:02. > :56:02.and the European Union -- the rest of the United Kingdom. Thank you
:56:03. > :56:05.very much for joining us. This week, the Scottish government
:56:06. > :56:08.announced its latest move Basically, the idea
:56:09. > :56:10.is to give more powers It has been welcomed
:56:11. > :56:14.by members of the profession, but the council umbrella group Cosla
:56:15. > :56:17.says the plan will erode local So, how much resistance
:56:18. > :56:32.will there be? Education is the Scottish Government
:56:33. > :56:39.'s top priority. Closing the attainment gap between those from
:56:40. > :56:44.the most prosperous and most paved areas as the priority. The Education
:56:45. > :56:49.Secretary decided that giving more power to the schools is the way
:56:50. > :56:51.forward. Under the plan, headteachers will have
:56:52. > :56:57.responsibility for raising attainment. They will get more
:56:58. > :57:02.powers to choose stealth, choose curriculum content and have direct
:57:03. > :57:10.control over more school funding. How has this gone down with the
:57:11. > :57:17.profession? One headteacher says the hope that bureaucracy will be cut. A
:57:18. > :57:23.lot of educationalists can come from any background and not have a lot of
:57:24. > :57:27.understanding. What works best in schools is that there is a
:57:28. > :57:30.completely of management above the school that you have to address as
:57:31. > :57:36.the headteacher and that can often undermine the job you're trying to
:57:37. > :57:40.do. One education experts said more power for the teachers is a good
:57:41. > :57:46.thing. But he urges caution. They are in position to do things better.
:57:47. > :57:52.We tend to do it better than politicians and bureaucrats. It
:57:53. > :57:58.could lead to improvement, but teachers are extremely busy people.
:57:59. > :58:02.We cannot create new curricular directions as the policy directs
:58:03. > :58:12.them to. The neat advice and support. That is in this proposal is
:58:13. > :58:16.that while a low headteachers to do innovative things. But politicians
:58:17. > :58:22.are involved and education as a hard-fought topic as we saw during
:58:23. > :58:24.questions to the First Minister. The First Minister has taken teachers
:58:25. > :58:27.are involved and education as a hard-fought topic as we saw during
:58:28. > :58:29.questions to the First Minister. The First Minister has taken teachers
:58:30. > :58:35.were granted for years. Whenever we come forward with policies and ideas
:58:36. > :58:38.and initiatives to address these challenges, all the Labour Party
:58:39. > :58:43.does is oppose them. They hate of the biggest kitchen union says he
:58:44. > :58:47.hopes there will be less of that tape of conflict in the future. We
:58:48. > :58:59.need to get the consensus around Scotland. We need the political
:59:00. > :59:04.parties working together as to how best to support schools. This is
:59:05. > :59:12.part of a wider strategy in education. How long will it take
:59:13. > :59:18.before changes produce results. I am joined obeying the Education
:59:19. > :59:20.Secretary. Try and explain some of this.
:59:21. > :59:22.Well, joining me now from Dundee is the education
:59:23. > :59:36.Can the headteachers hire teachers and also fire them? They would have
:59:37. > :59:42.to go through the normal process of performance management and address
:59:43. > :59:46.issues of teachers of the one not satisfactory. In all the proposals,
:59:47. > :59:52.the local authority would remain the employer. They headteacher would
:59:53. > :00:00.have to collaborate with the individual local authorities to do
:00:01. > :00:05.that. In simple terms, if I may headteacher, I think someone is not
:00:06. > :00:08.up to it, I do not want them in my school, because I have new
:00:09. > :00:15.responsibilities over performance, can I get rid of them? You would
:00:16. > :00:20.have two discussed that with the local authority and go through the
:00:21. > :00:26.normal employment rates. It is important that we give headteachers
:00:27. > :00:29.the flexibility and opportunity to take the rate decisions within
:00:30. > :00:36.schools to make sure we can best meet the needs of young people. All
:00:37. > :00:43.evidence indicates that the course of the delivery to the education,
:00:44. > :00:47.the better for the young people involved. You want to give
:00:48. > :00:53.headteachers more control over a greater proportion of the school
:00:54. > :00:57.budget. You want to go beyond the pupil equity fund. What proportion
:00:58. > :01:03.do you think should be under the direct control of the headteachers?
:01:04. > :01:07.We will discuss with the profession. What is your view? We will undertake
:01:08. > :01:14.a consultation on that. The lesson aged the juice in funding is that we
:01:15. > :01:20.are seeing a very interesting set of examples where teachers have the
:01:21. > :01:27.flexibility to tackle directly issues the fees within their own
:01:28. > :01:31.schools. The likes of speech and language therapy which enhances
:01:32. > :01:38.communication ability at the very early stage in the education,
:01:39. > :01:45.investing in link workers, and in some other standards literacy and
:01:46. > :01:50.new Morrissey. The key point is that different approaches on the table
:01:51. > :01:58.will go to different parts of the country to ensure that young people
:01:59. > :02:05.are enhanced by the interaction with the education system. All the big
:02:06. > :02:11.teachers at the disposal? There was some aspects of the London challenge
:02:12. > :02:17.in this. With the "To send at the request of local authorities on
:02:18. > :02:21.themselves, if a school is underperforming, could the Saint
:02:22. > :02:26.teachers in to retrain the ones already be? This has to be a true
:02:27. > :02:31.collaborative. We want to bring together the best expertise we have.
:02:32. > :02:36.Could the intervene? The other to support the delivery of education in
:02:37. > :02:42.schools. I want schools to be able to determine what support they
:02:43. > :02:47.require. These regional collaborations will bring together
:02:48. > :02:52.our experts from within the Inspectorate of education Scotland.
:02:53. > :02:57.In the London challenge, what happened was that of the school was
:02:58. > :03:04.identified as underperforming, there were centralised teams not to ask
:03:05. > :03:08.get -- act against the teachers, but to integrate and retrain them. I am
:03:09. > :03:16.curious as to whether these regional bodies would be able to do that. It
:03:17. > :03:19.is not an abstract concept. It will be practical support available to
:03:20. > :03:26.schools across the country to enhance performance. The heart of
:03:27. > :03:29.the reforms is a relentless look at improving the education system. We
:03:30. > :03:35.really identify problems, the schools will be asked to improve.
:03:36. > :03:41.Whatever the problems, I want every school in the country to be able to
:03:42. > :03:45.access a quality resource to improve performance. It currently does not
:03:46. > :03:50.exist in every part of the country. I want to make sure that available.
:03:51. > :03:58.In the document you produced, you point out that local authorities
:03:59. > :04:03.have different modes to spend on pupils. Sometimes within the local
:04:04. > :04:07.authority, you see some areas which need higher spending on not getting
:04:08. > :04:17.it. I am not sure how any of the proposals could address that. I
:04:18. > :04:22.think the diversity in terms of education in Scotland, from rural to
:04:23. > :04:25.urban, large to small, it's difficult to establish a national
:04:26. > :04:29.funding approach. That's why want to make sure we have the maximum
:04:30. > :04:33.flexibility available and sustainable within the system.
:04:34. > :04:39.We will consult on those issues... How does that work? You say again in
:04:40. > :04:45.your document, the headteacher's Charter, they could be a Scotland
:04:46. > :04:48.wide approach to funding. Bringing consistency to the way local
:04:49. > :04:51.authorities run schools. But alas the money you give to local
:04:52. > :04:57.authorities is ring fenced I don't see how that can possibly work? At
:04:58. > :05:02.the moment they can decide that it's more important to spend that money
:05:03. > :05:06.on social care, for example, or the past apartment?
:05:07. > :05:09.The steps we have taken on the first Epsom this direction. We put in
:05:10. > :05:15.greater discretion in greater flexibility over the use of
:05:16. > :05:20.resources. How we build an pubertal funding will be the subject of the
:05:21. > :05:26.next element of our reforms. -- pubertal funding.
:05:27. > :05:34.I want to move up speed, and with pace, to make sure that we have, in
:05:35. > :05:38.place, the regional collaborations that could enhance performance. And
:05:39. > :05:42.meet the needs of young people. You said the last time you were on
:05:43. > :05:46.this programme you would produce a battery of targets, several at
:05:47. > :05:49.least, by which the electorate can judge whether any of this does
:05:50. > :05:52.anything to improve the education system.
:05:53. > :05:57.Do you still intend to do that? We've done that already and will
:05:58. > :06:01.continue to focus on these things. We are publishing, school by school,
:06:02. > :06:04.the performance of young people at various teachers and education. That
:06:05. > :06:12.will be published every year based on teacher judgment deployed in our
:06:13. > :06:16.schools. There is a transparent approach to assessing education in
:06:17. > :06:19.Scotland on the widest data ever available. That's really important,
:06:20. > :06:23.to show our young people have the best chance to succeed.
:06:24. > :06:28.I'm sure you'll be disappointed if I let you go without asking you about
:06:29. > :06:33.a second independence referendum. We've got lots of people saying,
:06:34. > :06:35.look, come on, we've got to shelve this, at least until the 2021
:06:36. > :06:41.elections. Do you agree? The first thing I want
:06:42. > :06:45.to say is that the publication of the education proposals on Thursday
:06:46. > :06:49.demonstrated we are getting on with the day job, contrary to what the
:06:50. > :06:51.Secretary of State for Scotland was saying.
:06:52. > :06:56.One more sentence. Obviously, it will take time to reflect on the
:06:57. > :06:59.outcome of the election. But our proposal always was that an
:07:00. > :07:02.independence referendum would only be appropriate when we had the
:07:03. > :07:06.outcome of the breakfast negotiations. People in Scotland can
:07:07. > :07:10.make an informed choice. People want you to say it's off the
:07:11. > :07:14.table. We want stability. Our proposal was
:07:15. > :07:18.that we would have this referendum, if we have the end of the Brexit
:07:19. > :07:22.process. We will consider proposals in the light of the election.
:07:23. > :07:26.When do you think the end of the Brexit browsers will be?
:07:27. > :07:31.The Prime Minister has told as it's two years away from the triggering
:07:32. > :07:34.of Article 50. That's been admitted by the UK Government. We set out
:07:35. > :07:34.proposals on the basis of that commitment.
:07:35. > :07:36.Thank you very much indeed. And time now for a look
:07:37. > :07:44.at the Week Ahead. I'm joined now by the Karen Lindsay,
:07:45. > :07:50.editor of liberal Democrat voice. and Paul Hutcheon,
:07:51. > :08:00.Investigations Editor All is not well from what we have
:08:01. > :08:04.heard this morning, Paul. Philip Hammond's comments that he wasn't
:08:05. > :08:08.happy with the role he was given in the election, so on and so forth,
:08:09. > :08:13.rumours of plots, what do you think is happening?
:08:14. > :08:16.I think the wheels are coming off the bus. Obviously, Brexit
:08:17. > :08:20.negotiations are about to start. This is the key thing facing the
:08:21. > :08:25.Government. I think they are being pulled into different directions on
:08:26. > :08:31.that subject. You've got people like Philip Hammond Andrew Davidson, who
:08:32. > :08:34.are making noises about a softer Brexit, whatever that means, using
:08:35. > :08:38.their muscle. their muscle.
:08:39. > :08:45.-- Ruth Davidson. It didn't sound soft in Philip Hammond's words.
:08:46. > :08:49.Yes, he recalibrated it so its focus towards the economy. If he did tweak
:08:50. > :08:54.it, I think it would face a backlash from some of the committed
:08:55. > :08:58.Eurosceptics and backbenchers. But just a broader point.
:08:59. > :09:03.I remember John Major's comments, lurching from crisis to crisis, this
:09:04. > :09:08.is a John Major style government times ten. But through the hellish
:09:09. > :09:11.filter of social media. I'd be amazed if Theresa May was still
:09:12. > :09:16.Prime Minister by the end of the year.
:09:17. > :09:19.Would you be good macro I can't... I think the Conservative Party are in
:09:20. > :09:25.a mess regardless of who is leading them. What fascinates me is the
:09:26. > :09:30.position of the Scottish Tories. Two weeks ago they were defending
:09:31. > :09:34.the rain laws and the hardest Brexit. Now they are talking about
:09:35. > :09:39.this open Brexit. Of course the focus should be on the economy.
:09:40. > :09:43.It wasn't clear what the difference was. Are these Scottish Tories going
:09:44. > :09:46.to flex their muscle and work without other moderates across the
:09:47. > :09:52.Parliament to protect our economy and protect jobs.
:09:53. > :09:56.I'm not seeing evidence of that yet. Education, I was just talking to
:09:57. > :10:01.John Swinney about that. He's got all these detailed proposals, the
:10:02. > :10:05.problem he's got, is that communal, this isn't a motorbike, this is
:10:06. > :10:08.shifting an oil tanker. They don't have the time to shift an oil
:10:09. > :10:13.tanker. On one level I can understand why
:10:14. > :10:16.he's doing it. Their top domestic priority is
:10:17. > :10:20.closing the attainment gap. But under the status quo they would
:10:21. > :10:26.rely your and 32 different local authorities to do that job for them.
:10:27. > :10:30.It's clear he doesn't trust councils, so this rethink, this
:10:31. > :10:35.restructure, is about centralising control. But, I think the point I
:10:36. > :10:41.would make... But, clearly, some of these ideas,
:10:42. > :10:45.some of them are from Tony Blair's book on education. Some of them are
:10:46. > :10:47.similar to things the Tories have done in England. Our grubby, they
:10:48. > :10:53.don't have the courage or convictions. Blair went to the
:10:54. > :10:58.education system like a dose of salt. They sacked head teachers,
:10:59. > :11:02.said, right, we won't stop until we got demonstrable evidence. Things
:11:03. > :11:06.didn't improve, but it's not quite as radical here.
:11:07. > :11:11.It's not as radical as what Michael Forsyth did in the 90s or Tony Blair
:11:12. > :11:16.did in the last decade. The point I would make is its run councils to
:11:17. > :11:18.headteachers. Recently, he's giving headteachers the legal
:11:19. > :11:24.responsibility close the attainment gap.
:11:25. > :11:28.The point I'd make is that they are not sociologists. There is no
:11:29. > :11:32.consensus on why the attainment gap exists.
:11:33. > :11:36.There is no consensus. That's the difficult one to shift. You could
:11:37. > :11:40.argue that they get the ability of students to read up fairly quickly,
:11:41. > :11:44.but getting the attainment gap down, that's hard.
:11:45. > :11:48.We know what works. We know that a dedicated pupil premium is closing
:11:49. > :11:54.the gap in England. That was one of our ideas. But even
:11:55. > :11:58.that was an element of a whole load of different things.
:11:59. > :12:01.But also, what matters on the ground, is the number of teachers
:12:02. > :12:05.and support workers in schools. We've seen figures this week that
:12:06. > :12:08.showed there are fewer support workers in schools than in 2007.
:12:09. > :12:12.That is massive. They have a huge role in the
:12:13. > :12:18.classroom. I just want to ask you both about independence referendum
:12:19. > :12:22.to. John Swinney's line seemed to be, I don't know, can we talk about
:12:23. > :12:26.something else, but I won't take it off the table.
:12:27. > :12:30.Is that sustainable? I think they just need to take it off the table
:12:31. > :12:32.now, for the rest of this Parliament, but a motion to the
:12:33. > :12:37.Parliament but everyone votes on, that's it. Out of the way. Two
:12:38. > :12:40.thirds of people in Scotland rejected the idea. That's what it
:12:41. > :12:45.was about peer. The problem with that is there are a
:12:46. > :12:50.lot of people passionately supporting the idea of independence.
:12:51. > :12:53.If the SNP turned around and said independence was on the back burner,
:12:54. > :12:58.they will be very happy. They are in a bind. If they pursue
:12:59. > :13:01.the second independence referendum plan it's likely they will lose
:13:02. > :13:06.support in terms of Hollyrood and get kicked out of office. But if
:13:07. > :13:11.they ditched Indyref2, they'll probably puncture the we love the
:13:12. > :13:14.yes movement. They can't win regardless. If you were in their
:13:15. > :13:18.shoes, which has got the greatest risk?
:13:19. > :13:23.They should probably partied for a fuel use and make the best of
:13:24. > :13:30.Brexit. Ben is the... They could park it until 2021, then
:13:31. > :13:33.run on a platform, saying, if we win this will have another referendum.
:13:34. > :13:37.But the risk is they could haemorrhage more support.
:13:38. > :13:42.She should have been much shrewder after the Brexit Road. She was too
:13:43. > :13:46.quick at the traps. Public opinion has moved against the SNP. If she
:13:47. > :13:48.was shrewd and she should wait to see where public opinion is.
:13:49. > :13:49.We have to leave it there. I'll be back at the
:13:50. > :13:54.same time next week.