:00:37. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:47.After the Grenfell Tower disaster, 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas
:00:48. > :00:50.in England have failed emergency fire safety tests, but not
:00:51. > :00:52.every building that fails will be evacuated.
:00:53. > :00:58.The government promises Britain will be a strong global
:00:59. > :01:01.trading power after Brexit, as negotiations get under way,
:01:02. > :01:04.we'll ask the international trade minister how.
:01:05. > :01:08.As Jeremy Corbyn celebrates his new rock-star status
:01:09. > :01:13.with a trip to Glastonbury, will the Labour leader
:01:14. > :01:18.The new SNP leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, explains why
:01:19. > :01:20.he thinks it's only a matter of time before the Scottish Government get
:01:21. > :01:36.And with me throughout, our own supergroup of political
:01:37. > :01:38.pundits who'll be wowing the crowds throughout the programme,
:01:39. > :01:40.Helen Lewis, Tim Shipman and Isabel Oakeshott.
:01:41. > :01:43.They'll also be tweeting using the hashtag bbcsp.
:01:44. > :01:46.First, though, the government has confirmed that over 30 tower blocks
:01:47. > :01:50.across England have now failed an emergency fire safety test,
:01:51. > :01:53.following the Grenfall Tower disaster in which 79 people
:01:54. > :02:01.According to the government the cladding from 34 tower blocks
:02:02. > :02:04.has been tested and all of them have failed the combustibility test.
:02:05. > :02:08.The government plans to examine up to
:02:09. > :02:12.600 blocks and claim they can test 100 a day.
:02:13. > :02:16.The areas affected so far include Manchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth
:02:17. > :02:20.as well as the London boroughs of Barnet, Brent, Camden
:02:21. > :02:23.and Hounslow; all the relevant landlords and fire services
:02:24. > :02:29.Camden has already evacuated residents from
:02:30. > :02:33.650 flats whilst other councils have introduced interim measures such
:02:34. > :02:36.as 24-hour fire warden patrols to mitigate the risk before
:02:37. > :02:47.When you look at the national scale of this, this goes beyond austerity
:02:48. > :02:53.and finger-pointing at individual councils, this is a clear national
:02:54. > :02:56.system failure for the country. I'm surprised the response has been as
:02:57. > :03:01.muted as it has been, and initially there was a huge response. It is
:03:02. > :03:05.striking how every single building they test seems to fail these
:03:06. > :03:08.regulations, so people are slightly confused about whether this is the
:03:09. > :03:13.regulations at fault or the cladding that is at fault and I think what is
:03:14. > :03:17.most alarming to people, the insecurity. Some people have been
:03:18. > :03:21.told to evacuate and that is what happened in Camden and they were
:03:22. > :03:24.told until late at night. It is difficult for people to take pets
:03:25. > :03:29.outcome and other people have been told to stay in the commendation
:03:30. > :03:33.that may or may not be flammable. They have put fire wardens in
:03:34. > :03:39.instead. There is a problem that people feel this is a problem about
:03:40. > :03:43.social housing but not all of these are about social housing, but about
:03:44. > :03:48.the neglect to people that several successive governments have shown.
:03:49. > :03:52.People will wonder why the building regulations allow or the building
:03:53. > :03:57.regulations were flouted in a way that allowed so much inflammable
:03:58. > :04:01.material to clad our buildings. If you look in other countries,
:04:02. > :04:07.America, Germany, some of this is banned, and some people said some of
:04:08. > :04:10.the stuff has been put up in this country has also been banned and
:04:11. > :04:14.this shows what a disaster housing policy has been in this country for
:04:15. > :04:20.a generation. Neither party has been able to get a grip on it. There are
:04:21. > :04:24.several failures of the Tory council but Labour was in charge of putting
:04:25. > :04:27.this stuff into housing associations, where the controls
:04:28. > :04:31.have not been very good over long period, and what we need to do is
:04:32. > :04:34.build more homes and every government announces they are going
:04:35. > :04:39.to build more homes. Hopefully using the right material. Yes, but none of
:04:40. > :04:44.these governors have been able to build enough homes and we have a
:04:45. > :04:47.crisis of stock where people are put into houses like battery hens,
:04:48. > :04:52.frankly, in places where most people would not want to take a second
:04:53. > :04:56.look. Looking at Grenfell Tower, if that had not been clad, if they had
:04:57. > :05:01.kept the old concrete facade committee would not have gone up in
:05:02. > :05:06.fire. This has been a failure of government with a small G, national
:05:07. > :05:12.and local, Labour and Conservatives. Absolutely. It is not just about
:05:13. > :05:15.residential accommodation, hospitals might have this material, I'm
:05:16. > :05:19.hearing, and schools. Politically the challenge for the government,
:05:20. > :05:25.there is a huge logistical and humanitarian challenge but also the
:05:26. > :05:27.politics of it, as you rightly say, that this isn't just something which
:05:28. > :05:34.is linked directly to Tory austerity. The government now, the
:05:35. > :05:39.initial shock has worn off, and the challenge for the government is to
:05:40. > :05:42.make it clear that this is not just their direct responsibility and the
:05:43. > :05:47.result of the Tory cuts agenda and there are plenty of Labour councils
:05:48. > :05:51.who also have responsibility. Given the national crisis and the national
:05:52. > :05:56.failure, the government needs to be seen to get a grip on this.
:05:57. > :06:01.Absolutely. Most MPs would say they... Their response has been
:06:02. > :06:05.slightly more convincing than it was early on, but there are still huge
:06:06. > :06:07.potential for this to snowball especially if we have other
:06:08. > :06:13.buildings, not just residential, affected. There has been a change in
:06:14. > :06:16.the national mood, you see this in the Conservative Party. The word
:06:17. > :06:22.austerity was barely mentioned. Philip Hammond has relaxed his
:06:23. > :06:25.targets. Local councils bore the brunt of the cuts and they won't
:06:26. > :06:27.take any more, there is that sense, the people are tired of that.
:06:28. > :06:31.Indeed. OK. The Government says it will deliver
:06:32. > :06:34.a Brexit deal which will allow the UK to become a powerful global
:06:35. > :06:37.trading nation with the EU This morning the Brexit Secretary,
:06:38. > :06:41.David Davis, told the BBC he was certain he'd be able to get
:06:42. > :06:44.a good trade deal with Brussels, in part because of pressure
:06:45. > :06:49.from businesses within the EU. I mean it's not just
:06:50. > :06:52.the German car industry, it's Bavarian farmers,
:06:53. > :06:53.French farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers,
:06:54. > :06:58.you name it. The balance of trade basically
:06:59. > :07:01.is 230 billion from us to them, They have a very strong interest
:07:02. > :07:10.in getting a good deal, at the end of the day,
:07:11. > :07:12.on all sides on trade. And I've been joined
:07:13. > :07:17.by the Trade Minister Mark Price. Welcome to the programme. There are
:07:18. > :07:20.five main national business organisations in Britain and all of
:07:21. > :07:26.them want minimal custom checks after Brexit between the UK and the
:07:27. > :07:30.EU, how can you do that if we are leaving the customs union? There's a
:07:31. > :07:35.difference between the customs union and the customs arrangements. It is
:07:36. > :07:42.not that binary, you are not either in or out, you can work which with
:07:43. > :07:46.ever party you want, you have customs arrangements, which work to
:07:47. > :07:51.the benefit of business. That would need to cover all of the EU? You
:07:52. > :07:56.can't do that in bilateral business with members of the EU, it needs to
:07:57. > :07:59.be all of them? The negotiations will be with the commission and they
:08:00. > :08:04.will work on behalf of all EU members. I attend the trade
:08:05. > :08:08.ministers meeting and I've been four times since Brexit, and the mood is
:08:09. > :08:13.very positive about the relationship they want with the UK going forward.
:08:14. > :08:16.We have frictionless trade by being in the customs union at the moment,
:08:17. > :08:22.you can import into this country, and then they go seamlessly to the
:08:23. > :08:26.rest of the EU because everything coming into the EU comes in on the
:08:27. > :08:31.same terms, but if we are not in the customs union any more, how can you
:08:32. > :08:34.have that frictionless trade? You look at Harris first of all, and at
:08:35. > :08:38.the moment we are tariff free, but if you look at the arrangement like
:08:39. > :08:51.the Canadian trade Guild, it is 98% tariff free, -- the trade deal. The
:08:52. > :08:56.Canadian deal is not a customs deal. What I'm asking you is about the
:08:57. > :09:01.stuff coming into Britain which at the moment can then go seamlessly to
:09:02. > :09:05.the rest of the EU, and will not be able to do so if we are not in the
:09:06. > :09:12.customs union. I'm trying to explain the preconditions for having a
:09:13. > :09:24.customs arrangements, the first is, can tariff the parable of the -- the
:09:25. > :09:28.first is tariff, and then at the moment we take 56% of our goods from
:09:29. > :09:33.outside the EU. We have electronic passing of documentation and I'm
:09:34. > :09:37.told that 96% will go through within six seconds, and so we are not a
:09:38. > :09:41.novice to this and we all be do this with countries all over the world.
:09:42. > :09:47.We trade with 163 countries around the world, we are not building from
:09:48. > :09:51.no experience and no base. We have a place that we are working from. To
:09:52. > :09:54.do it sector by sector could take a long wire which is maybe why the
:09:55. > :10:00.Chancellor is now talking about a transitional period for single
:10:01. > :10:03.market access may be membership, and the customs union, how long a
:10:04. > :10:12.transition period are we looking at? Who knows. We will see how we get
:10:13. > :10:17.on. One year, two years? Who knows. From the European and UK perspective
:10:18. > :10:20.we want a smooth transition and this is what trade ministers are saying
:10:21. > :10:24.across Europe, this is not just a British desire. I have heard
:10:25. > :10:27.interviews with several European parliamentarians who say they want
:10:28. > :10:30.to move to a smooth transition and they would like a period of time to
:10:31. > :10:36.do that if we can't do that inside the initial period. Will we be able
:10:37. > :10:41.to make free trade deals with countries outside the EU in this
:10:42. > :10:45.transition period? We have a host of arrangements at the moment, but it
:10:46. > :10:50.is not that simple. With the EU we are party to about 40 trade deals by
:10:51. > :10:54.the time we go, and we will work with those countries to transition
:10:55. > :11:00.them. But in the transition period, can we make a free-trade deal with
:11:01. > :11:04.America or China? Can we do that? We have set up nine working groups at
:11:05. > :11:08.the moment with 15 different countries and what we are working
:11:09. > :11:11.through is how do we make sure when we leave the EU that the current
:11:12. > :11:16.arrangements that we have are carried forward, Liam Fox last week
:11:17. > :11:19.was in America and there are 20 agreements with America. We can talk
:11:20. > :11:23.about the current trading relationship, how do we make things
:11:24. > :11:27.better for our businesses in those countries in the way that customs
:11:28. > :11:29.work and the way their businesses are handled and then we can start
:11:30. > :11:35.thinking about how do we shape a future deal. In a transition period,
:11:36. > :11:43.can we strike a free-trade deal with a third party? No, we can't. We
:11:44. > :11:49.can't sign or negotiate. During the transition period? This is during
:11:50. > :11:53.the two-year period, but in the transition period that depends what
:11:54. > :11:58.we agree with the EU. Businesses want tariff free trade to continue
:11:59. > :12:06.between the EU and the UK. What indications have you had that the EU
:12:07. > :12:13.will agree to this? Businesses who want tariff free trade to continue.
:12:14. > :12:17.Between the UK and the EU. In all the discussion that I've had with
:12:18. > :12:21.trade ministers, and I've spoken to them all over the last year, there
:12:22. > :12:29.is a great appetite to impose tariffs where none exist today and
:12:30. > :12:32.as I've mentioned, the Canadian deal is 98% tariff free but also today,
:12:33. > :12:36.what we have said, we will make sure that for the least developed
:12:37. > :12:40.country, 48 of them, we give them preferential access to the UK, no
:12:41. > :12:48.tariffs or rotors, and there's another group of countries that we
:12:49. > :12:53.give reduced access to as well. What about tariff free trade between the
:12:54. > :12:58.EU and the UK? I think they will be keen to give us that. But no yes,
:12:59. > :13:03.despite all these meetings. We have got to sit down and negotiate, but
:13:04. > :13:07.the spirit is a good one. People in Europe want to get into a good place
:13:08. > :13:17.with us, why? Because the trade surplus with the UK is... I know all
:13:18. > :13:21.the reasons. Euro France only runs a surplus with four countries and we
:13:22. > :13:26.are one of them. So the indications are good? Yes, around the world,
:13:27. > :13:34.since Brexit, I visited 31 countries and I've met with 70 ministers and I
:13:35. > :13:43.have seen this. Let me come onto immigration. Businesses have also
:13:44. > :13:48.called for a flexible system of skills and Labour, so what system do
:13:49. > :13:53.you imagine? You have heard from the government that we don't want to
:13:54. > :13:56.harm our economy, and in Europe we have heard very loud and clear that
:13:57. > :14:02.people want to be able to source the right people for their businesses.
:14:03. > :14:07.What will the system be? Tomorrow the Prime Minister is going to make
:14:08. > :14:12.an announcement. That is about EU citizens already here, but what will
:14:13. > :14:17.the broad principles be under which people from the EU can come here to
:14:18. > :14:20.work? That will be in the paper that will be set up, we have the
:14:21. > :14:25.immigration bill coming forward, but we don't want to harm the UK
:14:26. > :14:30.economy. What is the priority? In your manifesto you had a policy of
:14:31. > :14:33.reducing net migration to the tens of thousands, so what is the
:14:34. > :14:40.priority, hitting Matt Targett or a system that meets the flexible needs
:14:41. > :14:44.of the economy? -- that target. It is a difficult call. I would say
:14:45. > :14:49.meeting the needs of the economy are hugely important. What is more
:14:50. > :14:53.important? The part of the jigsaw that is missing is what happens to
:14:54. > :14:57.the shape of the Labour force in the UK as we move into the digital
:14:58. > :15:03.error. The British consortium have said they will need 900,000 fewer
:15:04. > :15:07.workers in retail in ten years' time in every industry is being reshaped,
:15:08. > :15:12.and to take a point in time and say this is right... I'm asking for a
:15:13. > :15:16.general principle, what is more important, hitting the target or
:15:17. > :15:22.keeping immigration that is flexible to the economy? If you asked me as a
:15:23. > :15:25.businessman, for 30 years, I would say it is through the success of
:15:26. > :15:30.business and the success of our economy that we can afford the
:15:31. > :15:32.social services that we want. As a government minister we need to work
:15:33. > :15:36.through over the course of the next 2-3 years, but Bill through
:15:37. > :15:41.Parliament and decide where we get to, we have said there is a target
:15:42. > :15:45.of tens of thousands, and my personal view, given the digital
:15:46. > :15:51.changes, that is a perfectly reasonable target for us.
:15:52. > :15:57.Business says what they really need is clarity. One year after we voted
:15:58. > :16:01.to leave, what clarity have you brought to these issues this
:16:02. > :16:07.morning? That is a very good question. I think we have set out
:16:08. > :16:11.the principles. You cannot tell me the principles of immigration, the
:16:12. > :16:15.principles on which the customs union will operate, or the economy
:16:16. > :16:21.or hitting a target will be more important for immigration. The Prime
:16:22. > :16:25.Minister has set out what we intend to achieve. Through the Queen's
:16:26. > :16:30.speech will bring a different bills that address these issues. They will
:16:31. > :16:34.be there for Parliament to discuss, there will be consultation papers
:16:35. > :16:39.and business can be involved with that. We will be consulting and
:16:40. > :16:45.there will be a vote. That is process. I'm afraid we have run out
:16:46. > :16:49.of time, but that is processed. What you want us to do is to be able to
:16:50. > :16:56.say this is definitively what we will be able to get, but there are
:16:57. > :17:01.two site. If I was buying a business in Waitrose, I couldn't tell you
:17:02. > :17:08.what the outcome would be. I was simply asking what the Government's
:17:09. > :17:09.aim was. That has clearly been set out by the Prime Minister. Thank
:17:10. > :17:13.you. Jeremy Corbyn confounded his critics
:17:14. > :17:15.in the general election, increasing Labour's share
:17:16. > :17:17.of the vote and securing So will the Corbynistas use
:17:18. > :17:20.the result to strengthen Our reporter Emma Vardy
:17:21. > :17:23.has been finding out. Enjoying superstar
:17:24. > :17:28.status at Glastonbury. Since when did being
:17:29. > :17:32.a politician become this cool? Do you know, politics is actually
:17:33. > :17:38.about everyday life. It's about all of us
:17:39. > :17:41.and what we dream and what we want and what we achieve and what we want
:17:42. > :17:44.for everybody else. # Staying out for the summer,
:17:45. > :17:53.playing games in the rain It's looking like the summer
:17:54. > :18:03.of love for Jeremy Corbyn. As he basks in his post-election
:18:04. > :18:06.glow, well, as much as you can bask So, is all that bitter infighting
:18:07. > :18:13.in the party a distant memory Jeremy will stay the Labour leader
:18:14. > :18:21.now as long as he wants to do so. He's come back from the dead
:18:22. > :18:24.in terms of the predictions and so he will remain Labour leader
:18:25. > :18:29.for as long as he wants. Let's recognise that another world
:18:30. > :18:40.is possible if we come together. Former Corbyn critics like John Mann
:18:41. > :18:43.MP have been eating humble pie. The big issue for Jeremy now is,
:18:44. > :18:46.is he going to hold his people in and stop any factional battling
:18:47. > :18:49.in the Labour Party, and there are people on both
:18:50. > :18:51.sides of the old divide in the Labour Party who love nothing
:18:52. > :18:55.better than internal wrangling. Or is he going to consolidate his
:18:56. > :18:58.position and bring the Labour Party together and be a potential
:18:59. > :19:02.Prime Minister in waiting? The centrist Labour group Progress
:19:03. > :19:04.which had been associated with some of Corbyn's harshest critics says
:19:05. > :19:07.now the party is more In the general election,
:19:08. > :19:27.the Labour Party worked together, Labour MPs put their strongest foot
:19:28. > :19:29.forward in getting re-elected in their seats the national campaign
:19:30. > :19:32.pulled through and party staff We have shown that when we pull
:19:33. > :19:36.together we are a strong force. # Staying out for the summer,
:19:37. > :19:39.staying up for the summer #. Before the election,
:19:40. > :19:41.a number of party rule changes had been up for debate as pro and
:19:42. > :19:44.anti-Corbyn factions looked for ways So has all that now being kicked
:19:45. > :19:48.into the long grass? Any attempts to try and undermine
:19:49. > :19:50.Tom Watson as deputy leader, appoint a second deputy leader,
:19:51. > :19:53.attack the party staff, change the party rules,
:19:54. > :19:55.will show the public out there that the Labour Party is more
:19:56. > :19:57.interested in itself rather But will also put at risk that
:19:58. > :20:02.unity, that is fragile and quite frankly now,
:20:03. > :20:06.is led from the top. The way in which internal
:20:07. > :20:10.hostilities would recommend The way in which internal
:20:11. > :20:13.hostilities would recommence would be if there was a return
:20:14. > :20:17.to some of the sectarianism that we So if there were attempts
:20:18. > :20:21.to deselect MPs and councillors, those MPs and councillors
:20:22. > :20:23.are going to fight If there are attempts to cross
:20:24. > :20:31.a limited number of policy red lines on things like Trident renewal,
:20:32. > :20:33.again that would cause And if there are attempts to change
:20:34. > :20:43.the rule book of the party in a way that just gives blatant partisan
:20:44. > :20:45.advantage, then again it would cause divisions to re-emerge,
:20:46. > :20:48.but there's no need for them to do On policy and personnel, the ball
:20:49. > :20:52.is in Jeremy Corbyn's court. There will be a debate
:20:53. > :20:55.at conference, though, on what some are calling
:20:56. > :20:57.the McDonnell Amendment. A rule change that would lower
:20:58. > :21:00.the number of nominations needed Those on the left of the party have
:21:01. > :21:06.been accused of plotting to make it easier for a left-wing candidate
:21:07. > :21:09.to stand for leadership to succeed I think that opinion at conference
:21:10. > :21:20.is finely balanced on that. Because the elections
:21:21. > :21:22.for constituency delegates seem to be on a knife edge
:21:23. > :21:26.between the left and the right. We will know the outcome of those
:21:27. > :21:29.around the 9th of July And then it all depends
:21:30. > :21:36.on the attitude taken by a couple of the big unions like
:21:37. > :21:38.the GMB and Unison, about this proposal than Unite
:21:39. > :21:46.and the more left-wing unions are. Meanwhile, here at the Jeremy Corbyn
:21:47. > :21:57.supporting Momentum HQ, they believe there could be another
:21:58. > :22:00.general election within six months and are remaining
:22:01. > :22:02.in full campaign mode. We're going to be targeting
:22:03. > :22:05.new marginals and we're going to be training thousands of activists
:22:06. > :22:07.in those marginal constituencies and we going to be developing
:22:08. > :22:09.new technological platforms to make it easy for people to get
:22:10. > :22:12.involved in the election. Safe to say, they're
:22:13. > :22:14.feeling rather vindicated. Many of those who were bitterly
:22:15. > :22:18.opposed to Jeremy Corbyn have eaten their words
:22:19. > :22:20.and have apologised. Look, in the general election
:22:21. > :22:24.campaign, we campaigned for all Labour candidates
:22:25. > :22:31.in our target seats and marginal seats, irrespective of where they
:22:32. > :22:36.stood in the past on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates
:22:37. > :22:40.who supported Progress, just as hard as we helped win seats
:22:41. > :22:46.for those who had always supported Jeremy and that's the way
:22:47. > :22:48.we are going to carry on. Well, I think that will last
:22:49. > :22:52.till the next election because we all want to
:22:53. > :22:54.win the next election. # Staying out for the summer,
:22:55. > :23:02.staying out for the summer #. For now, he's the man of the moment,
:23:03. > :23:07.but is this performance the peak of his popularity, or the precursor
:23:08. > :23:11.to Labour winning power? Before the general election
:23:12. > :23:19.was called, a proxy-battle for the future of the Labour party
:23:20. > :23:27.was played out in the election of the general secretary
:23:28. > :23:29.of Unite, the union, The incumbent, Len McClusky,
:23:30. > :23:36.who had put his weight behind Jeremy Corbyn,
:23:37. > :23:38.faced a challenge from Gerard Coyne, who was seen to be the Labour
:23:39. > :23:41.moderates' choice. Gerard Coyne narrowly lost,
:23:42. > :23:43.and this week he was sacked from his Unite position
:23:44. > :23:50.as a regional secretary. Good morning. You say you have been
:23:51. > :23:55.the victim of a kangaroo court and a short trial, what do you mean by
:23:56. > :24:01.that? After 29 years' service with the union I found myself dismissed
:24:02. > :24:05.for a trumped up charge that related to the election but was about
:24:06. > :24:10.nothing that relates directly to my role as a regional secretary so it
:24:11. > :24:16.showed to me that defence now cannot be tolerated inside Unite and that's
:24:17. > :24:19.a very concerning situation. The union says you were sacked for
:24:20. > :24:23.misuse of data during the leadership election campaign. You say it's
:24:24. > :24:27.because you have the audacity to challenge Len McCluskey. What's the
:24:28. > :24:33.evidence to support your side? The independent body appointed by the
:24:34. > :24:36.union to oversee the election this week produced a report that said in
:24:37. > :24:43.relation to the data issue there was no evidence I breached any rules and
:24:44. > :24:47.no evidence I breached the election guidance so actually the union's own
:24:48. > :24:52.independent body has exonerated me this week. You said "It's beyond
:24:53. > :25:02.parody that I is a 30 year member of the Labour Party should be accused
:25:03. > :25:09.of harming Unite Labour relations by Len McCluskey's chief of staff..."
:25:10. > :25:12.What do you mean by that? The investigation and the decision
:25:13. > :25:18.reached actually shows a much more concerning element about the
:25:19. > :25:22.involvement in the campaign and election that reflects badly in
:25:23. > :25:27.terms of his position as a member of the Communist Party and the sort of
:25:28. > :25:32.quite frankly Stalinist approach to the treatment I have received. So
:25:33. > :25:35.actually it was a show trial I endured recently and I don't believe
:25:36. > :25:42.I have received a fair process at all. And in this, in your words show
:25:43. > :25:47.trial, did this Unite leadership regard you as an enemy of the
:25:48. > :25:52.proletariat? The truth is they were very keen to see the descent and the
:25:53. > :25:56.different vision I have got for Unite which was focused on our
:25:57. > :26:01.members and protecting them in a difficult set of circumstances. They
:26:02. > :26:05.wanted to stamp out that voice which was one which was articulated in a
:26:06. > :26:12.different way for the union to go in the future. But you had lost. Yes
:26:13. > :26:16.but on a very small majority, and there were thousands of Unite voters
:26:17. > :26:20.that didn't have a chance to vote, which is why I'm now mounting a
:26:21. > :26:25.legal challenge to the election results and we are going to make
:26:26. > :26:30.sure it is rerun and given the opportunity to those members. So you
:26:31. > :26:35.think you have a claim in law? To put a ten point claim into the
:26:36. > :26:39.certification Officer, that has already gone in challenging the
:26:40. > :26:45.result on ten individual counts as to how it was not properly run in
:26:46. > :26:48.the first place. Do you have confidence in the certification
:26:49. > :26:52.Officer in that process or do you think you might end up in the High
:26:53. > :27:00.Court? If the certification Officer doesn't rule in favour of what I
:27:01. > :27:04.think is a strong case coming have to ask the question what is this
:27:05. > :27:10.certification Officer for, in that case I will be considering the High
:27:11. > :27:14.Court. If you are right about the way you were treated, what does it
:27:15. > :27:17.say about British trade unionism in the 21st-century that you can be
:27:18. > :27:25.sacked by your union for standing up to the boss? I expect to have a
:27:26. > :27:32.robust debate in a democratic election and not to be punished for
:27:33. > :27:36.it. I did engage in what was quite an interesting debate through the
:27:37. > :27:40.election campaign, but I've also served the union the 29 years and
:27:41. > :27:45.for most employees if they have had that length of service, some
:27:46. > :27:51.consideration would have been given to that. But Len McCluskey has been
:27:52. > :27:56.re-elected leader, Jeremy Corbyn now rules the Labour Party unchallenged.
:27:57. > :28:01.Andrew Murray, who you say mounted the show trial against you, was a
:28:02. > :28:07.key part of Jeremy Corbyn's election campaign. It does look like you've
:28:08. > :28:11.lost on all fronts. Jeremy did exceptionally well in the general
:28:12. > :28:15.election campaign, he got young people involved, and it's not about
:28:16. > :28:20.a left or right issue in terms of the party, it's about where the
:28:21. > :28:25.party goes. My fear is that the way I've treated will start to give an
:28:26. > :28:29.influence in the Labour movement or generally in the Labour Party that
:28:30. > :28:34.starts to look like purges are acceptable. If Labour does that, the
:28:35. > :28:37.electorate will never forgive them for an internal battle rather than
:28:38. > :28:42.being the effective opposition they need to be. Are you saying that what
:28:43. > :28:46.you believe happened to you could happen to other people now in the
:28:47. > :28:51.Labour Party itself? I think there is a real danger of that. The
:28:52. > :28:57.reality is the very people involved at the top of Unite, involved in the
:28:58. > :29:01.disciplinary process with myself, they are influential figures in
:29:02. > :29:04.Labour and part of my campaign is that Unite is too intrinsically
:29:05. > :29:08.linked with the top of the Labour Party and ready to be focusing on a
:29:09. > :29:12.much stronger industrial agenda for the future. If you have been a
:29:13. > :29:16.member of the Labour Party for 30 years. We have now been dismissed
:29:17. > :29:23.from your job is regional secretary I think in the West Midlands area?
:29:24. > :29:28.That's right. Have you heard from the Labour leadership on this issue?
:29:29. > :29:32.I haven't, and in terms of the leadership it would be nice to hear
:29:33. > :29:39.from them because we lost seats in the West Midlands, we should have
:29:40. > :29:43.felt onto, where working-class vote did not stay with Labour and it's
:29:44. > :29:46.important we reach out to and engage with those communities and make sure
:29:47. > :29:51.they support Labour in the future. Gerard Coyne, thank you for being
:29:52. > :29:55.with us. I've been joined now from Leeds
:29:56. > :30:07.by Labour's Jon Trickett, Welcome to the programme. Jeremy
:30:08. > :30:10.Corbyn says he wants to unite the party behind him, so why didn't he
:30:11. > :30:18.use the Shadow Cabinet reshuffle to do just that? First of all, why
:30:19. > :30:23.would he change a winning team? We did a very good election campaign,
:30:24. > :30:26.if we did not -- even if we did not quite get over the line. The Shadow
:30:27. > :30:30.Cabinet worked very hard to get their result, but there are
:30:31. > :30:34.vacancies and they were used to reach out and we have brought in the
:30:35. > :30:40.man who stood against Jeremy not that long ago in a tough battle for
:30:41. > :30:44.the leadership. I think that shows a leader who is reaching out, but also
:30:45. > :30:48.wanting to make sure that he keeps a winning team. That is a reasonable
:30:49. > :30:53.decision for him to make. What do you say to Gerard Coyne, Labour
:30:54. > :31:00.member 30 years, who believes he has been purged from the Unite union and
:31:01. > :31:06.that could be about to happen to Labour moderates in the party? There
:31:07. > :31:11.will be no purge. We want everyone together, what is remarkable is,
:31:12. > :31:15.when the so-called coup happened last year, when the PLP turned
:31:16. > :31:20.against Jeremy, our poll rating collapsed and as soon as the party
:31:21. > :31:25.reunited for the election the poll rating began to increase and that is
:31:26. > :31:29.a lesson for everyone. The lesson has been learned by all of us and we
:31:30. > :31:33.will work together as United party moving forward, but what should be
:31:34. > :31:37.clear to everyone, we cannot go back to the Labour Party as it was
:31:38. > :31:40.previously. He had got to move forward with Jeremy in the direction
:31:41. > :31:44.in which he has laid out for the party and the country. What do you
:31:45. > :31:50.say to Paul Mason, former journalists. -- former journalist.
:31:51. > :31:54.He said to Blair writes that if you want a centrist party, this is not
:31:55. > :32:01.going to be it for the next ten years -- Blairites. He said you have
:32:02. > :32:08.got to form your own party. He did look a bit excitable when I saw a
:32:09. > :32:11.piece by him on the internet, but the centre of gravity, it has
:32:12. > :32:15.changed in politics, and what was the centre is no longer the centre.
:32:16. > :32:19.The idea that a country should be run for a few at the expense of the
:32:20. > :32:23.many is one which I think has been largely destroyed in this election
:32:24. > :32:27.campaign. The centre has moved and the party has recognised with the
:32:28. > :32:31.new centre is and we now need to unite and begin to roll out the
:32:32. > :32:36.changes. There are many which need to be done on Jeremy's agenda. I say
:32:37. > :32:40.this to the party committee of Jeremy and the leadership the tools
:32:41. > :32:50.and he will finish the job -- the party, give Jeremy and the
:32:51. > :32:53.leadership the tours. If they want a more centre-left party, they are not
:32:54. > :32:59.going to get it? They should follow Paul Mason's advice? If they want
:33:00. > :33:02.that. We have heard many of them repenting on their sins in the last
:33:03. > :33:09.couple of days. That is another matter! LAUGHTER
:33:10. > :33:13.They have recognised there are new ways of campaigning we have got to
:33:14. > :33:16.listen to young people and see how they organise, but also our politics
:33:17. > :33:20.has changed as a party and it has resonated with the country. Gerard
:33:21. > :33:26.Coyne spoke about working class voters. I began writing about the
:33:27. > :33:30.problem with working class voters in 2005 at the height of the Tony Blair
:33:31. > :33:34.years and the party has more work to do in those communities and across
:33:35. > :33:39.the country to win the trust of everybody's so that we can serve
:33:40. > :33:42.them in government. Working-class voters swung to the Tories in the
:33:43. > :33:48.last election, middle-class voters went your way. There has been a
:33:49. > :33:51.problem with manual workers for some time, I don't need to be told about
:33:52. > :33:57.that, I'd been writing about it for ten years. I was a building worker
:33:58. > :34:01.for a while and we have got more work to do to regain the trust of
:34:02. > :34:03.these people, but some of the proposals will work for those people
:34:04. > :34:09.and we have got to bring them back in. Do you back the left wing move
:34:10. > :34:15.to lower the threshold of MPs needed to stand for the leadership? We will
:34:16. > :34:19.see where we get to, I'm in favour of democratising the Labour Party.
:34:20. > :34:25.Are you in favour or not? We will see where we get to. It has been a
:34:26. > :34:28.long-running debate. Do you think the threshold for anyone who wants
:34:29. > :34:35.to run for leadership should be cut to 5% of MPs? I'm not going to
:34:36. > :34:38.express my view at the moment, but when there is a leadership election
:34:39. > :34:42.it is important that every tendency within the party is represented on
:34:43. > :34:47.the ballot paper. And the rule that prevents a section of the right or
:34:48. > :34:52.the left or the centre from being on the ballot paper is a bad rule. That
:34:53. > :34:56.is an argument for lowering the threshold. We have got to look
:34:57. > :35:00.carefully at how we conduct leadership elections and that debate
:35:01. > :35:07.will be had. That far left figure we had in that film there, he said the
:35:08. > :35:14.Corbyn way of doing things is a successful way, and that is
:35:15. > :35:17.suggesting that you join the Corbyn bandwagon, you don't try to change
:35:18. > :35:22.it, that's the way forward the Labour Party? All parties have
:35:23. > :35:27.different points of view, and so is the Labour Party. You test ideas in
:35:28. > :35:31.action and what happened in the general election showed the idea
:35:32. > :35:35.that Jeremy has had and are successful, we have more than
:35:36. > :35:41.doubled our size. Over 600,000 members. You lost the third election
:35:42. > :35:47.in a row. We got the highest share of the vote, the largest number of
:35:48. > :35:55.votes. No, you didn't. The Tories did. I haven't finished my sentence.
:35:56. > :36:02.Labour has received since 1997. You lost. Of course, and that is why I
:36:03. > :36:06.have said you we have got to work harder to build confidence in people
:36:07. > :36:11.especially working people in our politics and the way we are going.
:36:12. > :36:17.Can I clarify the Labour position on Brexit? Jeremy Corbyn and John
:36:18. > :36:20.McDonnell has said the Labour position is to leave membership of
:36:21. > :36:24.the single market, so why have over 50 Labour politicians signed a
:36:25. > :36:29.letter to the Guardian in favour of membership of the single market?
:36:30. > :36:34.That is not exactly where we are. We are taking the view that we need to
:36:35. > :36:38.have access to all of the tariff rearrangements which exist within
:36:39. > :36:43.the customs union and the single market. What is the policy on
:36:44. > :36:49.membership? Let me finish. It is important to answer the question. I
:36:50. > :36:54.will give you a full answer, and the answer is, we are not wedded to any
:36:55. > :37:01.particular institutional framework, we are pragmatic about it. We will
:37:02. > :37:05.see how the negotiations go. We do not have to do one thing or another
:37:06. > :37:08.in terms of institutional relationships but we need a Brexit
:37:09. > :37:12.which works for jobs and growth and also for the protections which
:37:13. > :37:19.working people have also how that comes remains to be seen. I was
:37:20. > :37:24.asking for clarification. Is the Labour policy to remain members of
:37:25. > :37:31.the single market or not? Alp policy is to secure all of the rights which
:37:32. > :37:35.exist, tariff free access, within the single market and the customs
:37:36. > :37:39.union, and we are not saying that a particular institutional form is
:37:40. > :37:45.something we've always ourselves to at this stage. Are you for or
:37:46. > :37:50.against remaining members of the single market? It is not a question
:37:51. > :37:57.of four it is about securing the best possible arrangement for our
:37:58. > :38:04.economy and working people -- it is not a question of for or against.
:38:05. > :38:10.The labour MP Clive Lewis said Thatcher economic dogma was to blame
:38:11. > :38:16.for Grenfell Tower, but we know many tower blocks have been clad in the
:38:17. > :38:21.same material by Labour councils, was that also the fault of
:38:22. > :38:25.Thatcherite economic dogma? It is very difficult to say exactly what
:38:26. > :38:28.happened, and I worked in the building industry for many years and
:38:29. > :38:32.I know the regulations were very tight. It now looks as though
:38:33. > :38:39.something happened with the building regulations. And apart from that, we
:38:40. > :38:45.can't say exactly what lies behind this. By Tory and Labour councils,
:38:46. > :38:55.that is my point, both parties have questions to answer. Yes, but the
:38:56. > :38:56.government have sat on the recommendations, like the
:38:57. > :39:00.recommendation of this printer systems, they have sat on those
:39:01. > :39:08.documents for years. -- sprinkler systems. Do you think all parties
:39:09. > :39:14.should stop trying to make political capital out of what is effectively a
:39:15. > :39:18.national disaster? And tried to get to the bottom of a system explained
:39:19. > :39:23.the and try to do better regardless of the party? Yes, everyone should
:39:24. > :39:26.do the same. The sooner we get the results of the inquiry the better,
:39:27. > :39:29.but if there are decisions which can be made sooner than the public
:39:30. > :39:32.inquiry they should be made and implemented. Jon Trickett, thanks
:39:33. > :39:44.for joining us. Good morning, and welcome
:39:45. > :39:46.to Sunday Politics Scotland. The SNP's Westminster leader,
:39:47. > :39:51.Ian Blackford, says Scotland So, how exactly does he propose
:39:52. > :39:56.to help secure a place Michael Gove has called it
:39:57. > :40:01."a sea of opportunity", but is leaving Europe necessarily
:40:02. > :40:04.good news for all those And in a week where those Brexit
:40:05. > :40:12.talks finally got underway and Thersea May received an early
:40:13. > :40:15.rebuff from Donald Tusk, I'll be getting a Brussels'
:40:16. > :40:22.insider's view on the trials ahead. The SNP don't have their problems
:40:23. > :40:25.to seek after the election. They lost 21 seats and some leading
:40:26. > :40:28.figures in the party have accepted that their call for a second
:40:29. > :40:32.independence referendum didn't do them any favours -
:40:33. > :40:34.they've still to make clear whether they will continue
:40:35. > :40:37.to demand another referendum. But the party sees
:40:38. > :40:39.an opportunity with a minority It's now demanding that the Scottish
:40:40. > :40:43.Government should have a place But how do they plan
:40:44. > :40:47.to achieve that? I'm joined now by the new SNP leader
:40:48. > :40:51.at Westminster, Ian Blackford - he's the man who succeeds
:40:52. > :41:07.Angus Robertson, who lost his Usually not the Scottish Government
:41:08. > :41:11.involved in the direct negotiations, can we clarify that? Do you want
:41:12. > :41:15.negotiations with the joint ministerial committee or are you
:41:16. > :41:20.saying that you want a place at the table in Brussels in the
:41:21. > :41:28.negotiations? Bye what has to happen is that there has to be a meeting of
:41:29. > :41:30.the ministration in Edinburgh and hopefully the administration in
:41:31. > :41:35.Belfast as well. It's important that the government recognises that the
:41:36. > :41:40.devolved into ministration need to be involved. We are asking that the
:41:41. > :41:50.Scottish Government be represented wary are. -- where we are. She
:41:51. > :41:57.Theresa May got a bloody nose, she got defeated in the a minority in
:41:58. > :42:02.the Commons. We accept that the United Kingdom is coming out of the
:42:03. > :42:07.EU, but we wanted treaty to represent the interests of Scotland.
:42:08. > :42:15.I think that there is an indication that people do not want to lose the
:42:16. > :42:22.access to the single market. White on your idea of negotiations, I'm
:42:23. > :42:27.sure you're British government will say yes we will have joint meetings
:42:28. > :42:33.with the ministerial committee. An actual involvement in the talks in
:42:34. > :42:37.Brussels, they may possibly say no, we're not doing that it will all get
:42:38. > :42:42.too confusing. What do you do in that case? What pressure can you
:42:43. > :42:49.exert? I think the government has to recognise its position. It is a
:42:50. > :42:51.minority. But we are trained to do is seek a compromise that goes back
:42:52. > :42:58.to a document published by the Scottish Government in December. We
:42:59. > :43:02.haven't actually had a formal rejection. We need to say to the
:43:03. > :43:07.government, look you got a responsibility to try and bring the
:43:08. > :43:11.devolved nations of the UK together. We respect the position of the UK
:43:12. > :43:15.Government and respect the decision that was taken to come out of the
:43:16. > :43:20.EU, but we are equally tried to make sure that our demand to remain in
:43:21. > :43:22.the single market, for the different problems of defending an Arsenal
:43:23. > :43:27.interest in Scotland and the jobs and living standards is important. I
:43:28. > :43:31.think people in the country want that and the government of the
:43:32. > :43:35.United Kingdom should recognise that. If you did get your idea of
:43:36. > :43:42.Scottish representation in the next round of talks in Brussels, along
:43:43. > :43:46.with the rest of the bridges negotiating team that macro British
:43:47. > :43:53.Darts Organisation team prop Tom presumably you would request in
:43:54. > :43:58.advance. One thing the government would find intolerable is if
:43:59. > :44:05.representatives from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland who were
:44:06. > :44:08.disagreeing with their negotiators? I think there is a way of fashioning
:44:09. > :44:11.that and that is the position that the government had never taken. We
:44:12. > :44:17.are seeking a compromise with the UK Government in the interest of
:44:18. > :44:20.Scotland and to extent with the people of the United Kingdom as
:44:21. > :44:31.well. We need some humility, it is very clear that that the country
:44:32. > :44:36.want to be represented and that the only thoughts and that they have a
:44:37. > :44:40.say in these territories? One bit of pressure you could apply is to
:44:41. > :44:44.threaten to vote against a legislative consent motion for the
:44:45. > :44:50.Great Repeal Bill. The problem with this that the Supreme Court has
:44:51. > :44:56.already decided that Scotland can stop that Bill and can't stop
:44:57. > :44:59.Brexit, it's not much of a threat? Nobody is threatening anything at
:45:00. > :45:03.the moment. The important thing is that we now know that there is going
:45:04. > :45:07.to be a motion that will have to come from the Scottish Parliament.
:45:08. > :45:12.What we are saying to the government is let's work together and affect a
:45:13. > :45:16.compromise that respect your position and respect ours, as well.
:45:17. > :45:18.It's about trying to behave in a responsible manner, recognise a
:45:19. > :45:23.mandate we have from the people of Scotland and staging the UK
:45:24. > :45:27.Government, would you have to do is do the right thing. Acknowledge the
:45:28. > :45:30.position that you do not have this position for a hard Brexit. The UK
:45:31. > :45:36.Government says it wants to main trade with Europe, so do we, our
:45:37. > :45:39.point is that has to come through access to the single market and the
:45:40. > :45:43.customs union. Many other people, not just on the SNP, but in wider
:45:44. > :45:49.society and people who have been elevated to the last of that the
:45:50. > :45:54.House of Lords have liquidate the Scottish Government must be rest
:45:55. > :46:00.presented. I think that must be respected. In your new role you have
:46:01. > :46:03.said that the SNP group at Westminster would be happy to bring
:46:04. > :46:10.down the Tory government at any time. Are you really? When I have
:46:11. > :46:14.said is that we have a job to do to represent the people of Scotland.
:46:15. > :46:17.Brexit is of course a clear priority. The second thing of course
:46:18. > :46:20.is that there is no authority for posterity. One of the things that we
:46:21. > :46:24.are hearing is that there is likely to be a deal for Northern Ireland
:46:25. > :46:29.and if there is investment in Northern Ireland, which I would
:46:30. > :46:43.welcome, that Scotland's interest is properly defensive. Tee defended.
:46:44. > :46:53.Defended. How happy to bring them occurring in question are -- the
:46:54. > :46:55.Tory government? If the Tories are acting against a piece of Scotland
:46:56. > :47:00.and we would look at that at the time. But let's make sure that we
:47:01. > :47:03.can get effective opposition to government that we can challenge the
:47:04. > :47:06.austerity in general and if we can do the things I think we will have
:47:07. > :47:11.something that the people of Scotland can celebrate with us. Can
:47:12. > :47:17.expose my the SNP did not vote to bring down the last Tory government?
:47:18. > :47:21.Well, we had a ridiculous situation where there was known need for an
:47:22. > :47:24.election at that stage. We pointed that out. It really was about the
:47:25. > :47:33.Conservatives looking out of the own interest and that spectacularly
:47:34. > :47:37.backfired. We are not going to go against the mechanism that the
:47:38. > :47:42.Tories put in place. Even though we've lost seats, I'm delighted that
:47:43. > :47:45.we are still the largest party in Scotland, the Conservatives in the
:47:46. > :47:50.Westminster love to be in the position that we are... I'm sure
:47:51. > :47:54.they would, but the point is, when even the Tories voted to bring down
:47:55. > :48:04.the Tory government, the SNP didn't you have stained? -- abstinent. The
:48:05. > :48:11.Tories about than ever in their own interest. Many Labour MPs didn't. At
:48:12. > :48:13.the end of the day it was the Tories try to seek a narrow party advantage
:48:14. > :48:21.for themselves but it didn't work. It was a foolish thing to do and a
:48:22. > :48:25.game played at Westminster. The second independence referendum,
:48:26. > :48:30.people have said that that has played a role in the reduction of
:48:31. > :48:35.seats that you mentioned. What do think the SNP should do about that
:48:36. > :48:42.now? Nicola has made it very close that she is going to... She is
:48:43. > :48:44.consulting within the party now. I've been engaged in discussions
:48:45. > :48:49.with nickel and others and we will wait and see and other First
:48:50. > :48:54.Minister Israel to give a judgment. -- is rated a dozen. What is
:48:55. > :49:02.important is that we are going into negotiations. When you saying is it
:49:03. > :49:06.every other member of the European Union and Scotland should be able to
:49:07. > :49:15.have their say of the final exit the bracket. So you think that the SNP
:49:16. > :49:19.should still say... Use of the SNP should still say that this would be
:49:20. > :49:22.a second referendum customer once Nicola has reflected on the election
:49:23. > :49:25.results, of course we will come forward with our proposals and
:49:26. > :49:32.proposition on how we will move forward, both on the syllabus at --
:49:33. > :49:38.on Brexit and posterity. -- austerity. It does seem rather
:49:39. > :49:44.peculiar and ensure some of your critics with a ludicrous that as the
:49:45. > :49:49.leader of the Scottish National Party, at Westminster, that you can
:49:50. > :49:53.answer simple questions on of all issues the process of getting
:49:54. > :49:56.independence for Scotland? What I'm doing is concentrating on the job
:49:57. > :50:04.that I have along with my colleagues in Westminster which is can the
:50:05. > :50:08.upper Scotland -- standing up for Scotland. It's making sure that we
:50:09. > :50:16.get the offer Scotland on Brexit, challenging honours 30 -- on
:50:17. > :50:18.austerity. But I have said we will make a judgment based on what has
:50:19. > :50:22.happened in the election campaign and we have a strong message that we
:50:23. > :50:25.can take forward for the people of Scotland. The SNP is the party of
:50:26. > :50:31.Scottish independent, more than ever. But we must do more than ever
:50:32. > :50:37.is protecting Scottish interest in Brexit and make sure that there is
:50:38. > :50:40.an alternative to austerity. So, the policy from audio just said is to
:50:41. > :50:46.leave the idea of an independent referee and on the table... Hang on,
:50:47. > :50:57.you said earlier on... That they should never... I'm focusing on the
:50:58. > :51:01.short-term opportunities... So the policy is not to talk about it? What
:51:02. > :51:06.they said is that Nicola will reflect that and in due course that
:51:07. > :51:09.she will come out and say what the position of the SNP government is.
:51:10. > :51:13.We will have to leave it there, Ian Blackford, thank you very much.
:51:14. > :51:15.This week's Queen's Speech was pretty short by anybody's standards.
:51:16. > :51:17.Lacking a majority, with much of her election
:51:18. > :51:19.manifesto shredded and, at this point, without even a deal
:51:20. > :51:23.with the DUP to support her, Prime Minister Theresa May has
:51:24. > :51:27.decided that her two-year parliamentary programme should
:51:28. > :51:32.One of those bills that was announced concerned fishing -
:51:33. > :51:35.it will aim to set out a new way of regulating the industry.
:51:36. > :51:37.That may prove a slippery task, because not everybody
:51:38. > :51:55.In Peterhead on Friday, the UK's new Environment Secretary Michael Gove
:51:56. > :51:58.was treading carefully. He discussed the future of fishing post Brexit.
:51:59. > :52:07.As the country charts a new course, that is one bit of EU legislation
:52:08. > :52:09.the keen Brexiteer is happy to throw overboard. The Common fisheries
:52:10. > :52:11.policy has been an environmental and economic disaster, devastating for
:52:12. > :52:18.the industry, especially here. It also meant we have not been able to
:52:19. > :52:21.manage fish stocks to ensure the renewable resource is replenished
:52:22. > :52:26.for the future. Many in the industry agree with him on the common
:52:27. > :52:34.fisheries policy, but not all. The EU provides access to a huge market,
:52:35. > :52:40.particularly for creel fishermen on Scotland's West Coast. This is a
:52:41. > :52:47.very high premium shellfish. Some of them are concerned the valuable
:52:48. > :52:50.trade might start to dry up. This week's Queen's Speech included a new
:52:51. > :52:52.fisheries Bill, but there is precious little detail about how
:52:53. > :52:57.that will support fishing communities. They will want the
:52:58. > :53:07.backbone of the country, but have faced declining. -- they were once
:53:08. > :53:20.the backbone. Glasgow's Briggate, used to be big Fish market.
:53:21. > :53:23.Scotland's fishing industry is still going strong, though much reduced.
:53:24. > :53:33.Its leaders say that they want a place at the top table when Brexit
:53:34. > :53:58.The Fisherman Association represent 60% of the fishermen on the
:53:59. > :54:01.coast,... It is generally happy to say farewell to the EU, but wants
:54:02. > :54:04.its members to be at the heart of any new policies. People were making
:54:05. > :54:06.decisions in Brussels that could affect small communities, but they
:54:07. > :54:08.probably didn't realise how much it was affecting these small
:54:09. > :54:10.communities, and I think now we have a chance to change that, at that in
:54:11. > :54:12.the future both Westminster Government is a Scottish
:54:13. > :54:14.governments, regardless of who is in charge, will involve fishermen in
:54:15. > :54:16.going forward. The industry's members may sometimes want different
:54:17. > :54:19.things. Any new policies have to recognise that. Then, of course, it
:54:20. > :54:24.is not just about profit. There is also the environment. Fishing is a
:54:25. > :54:28.very complex business, and you have the inshore fishermen governed by
:54:29. > :54:31.rules set within the United Kingdom prematurely, and bigger offshore
:54:32. > :54:35.vessels primarily working within rules of the common fisheries
:54:36. > :54:41.policy. Of course there will be differences between those groups.
:54:42. > :54:47.What is really take bid key is that whatever the outcome of the
:54:48. > :54:57.negotiations, the fishing industry has the highest credentials. Fish
:54:58. > :54:58.stocks, jobs and export markets. As the sun sets, government and
:54:59. > :55:04.industry have a long journey ahead. Well, to discuss some of those
:55:05. > :55:05.issues in more detail are Bertie Armstrong,
:55:06. > :55:07.the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,
:55:08. > :55:09.and Chris Williams, project leader in fisheries and marine environment
:55:10. > :55:18.at the New Economics Foundation. Bertie Armstrong, can I ask you
:55:19. > :55:21.about how you think fisheries should operate? There has been a lot of
:55:22. > :55:27.political rhetoric about some people saying that all controllable
:55:28. > :55:30.fisheries should come to Scotland after Brexit, and others saying that
:55:31. > :55:35.bits of it should be with London and bits should be with Edinburgh. From
:55:36. > :55:38.a fishing point of view, would you want everything default, or are
:55:39. > :55:43.there aspects of the fishing industry that would be better run
:55:44. > :55:47.from the UK? The whole question is much more simple than that. The sea
:55:48. > :55:54.of opportunity represented by this needs to have five seconds of
:55:55. > :56:00.information. When we joined the Common fisheries industry, everyone
:56:01. > :56:04.did as much as the good, and that was due to common access to water
:56:05. > :56:08.is. When it became a downward spiral of overfishing and had to be limits,
:56:09. > :56:13.the opportunity was sheer dot proportionally with what your track
:56:14. > :56:23.record was when you've finished everywhere as hard as you like. So,
:56:24. > :56:28.60% of our fish leave with non-UK fishing nations, which needs fixing.
:56:29. > :56:37.That is the sea of opportunity. And the return of control and
:56:38. > :56:39.sovereignty, which will happen automatically, will be the advantage
:56:40. > :56:46.that comes to the entire fishing industry. I get that, what I am
:56:47. > :56:49.asking you is whether what you have just described would best be done
:56:50. > :56:53.entirely, I do not think anyone doubts that some control over
:56:54. > :56:59.fisheries will come to Edinburgh, but is it a good thing if all of it
:57:00. > :57:02.does? Or are there aspects that would be better if there were rules
:57:03. > :57:07.for fishing boats that were the same across the UK. There are two macro
:57:08. > :57:12.levels of government, one of them as day to day management which is
:57:13. > :57:17.devolved already and will stay default. The big bit is the
:57:18. > :57:21.international negotiations for fishing opportunity. We're talking
:57:22. > :57:27.about 1 million of mackerel, half a million tonnes of herring and so on.
:57:28. > :57:28.A really big or producing industry. Those negotiations on the
:57:29. > :57:34.international stage, and of scores international stage, and of scores
:57:35. > :57:40.-- of course Scotland's interest must be protected. When we're
:57:41. > :57:42.talking about mackerel or blue whiting, on the international stage,
:57:43. > :57:51.you would expect Scotland to lead and have a veto. If you're talking
:57:52. > :57:57.about channel cod or place in Seoul, it would be ridiculous for the
:57:58. > :58:03.Scottish voice to be in charge. -- plaice and sole. There are already
:58:04. > :58:07.established things in place. But we need to make sure the right voices
:58:08. > :58:14.at the table speaking for the right thing. We will not tolerate a
:58:15. > :58:16.constitutional arm wrestle, when one is not required. It is obvious how
:58:17. > :58:24.this should be organised, with the majority voice speaking on behalf of
:58:25. > :58:29.that Scott, and the minority voice speaking on behalf of the other. Are
:58:30. > :58:34.you concerned there may be a free for all? For all the criticism of
:58:35. > :58:39.the common fisheries policy but cod stocks have recovered dramatically.
:58:40. > :58:42.Is the danger that once Brexit happens, whatever the international
:58:43. > :58:47.agreements are, that there will be some sort of free for all? Yes,
:58:48. > :58:52.there are a few different things to say. The first is that over the last
:58:53. > :58:56.decade, as you rightly identified, lots of the Northern stocks are
:58:57. > :59:02.improving and I over the last ten years, the UK large-scale fleet is
:59:03. > :59:08.the most profitable in Europe, running at 15% years ago, by 2014
:59:09. > :59:14.they reach 35%. It is astounding and a success story in large part
:59:15. > :59:17.because of our shared management within the common fisheries policy.
:59:18. > :59:24.There is also a risk of overfishing when individual countries that do
:59:25. > :59:27.not have a shared management planning sure there are quarters.
:59:28. > :59:31.The final point is one that relate to the earlier point about
:59:32. > :59:36.differences in the industry. He's very correct in identifying the
:59:37. > :59:41.large pelagic stocks of the North of Scotland that represents a big sea
:59:42. > :59:46.of opportunity for his members but he also correctly identifies that in
:59:47. > :59:50.the English Channel there is a sea of risk for small-scale fishermen
:59:51. > :59:57.not own the rights. They represent three quarters of the fishing fleet,
:59:58. > :00:00.but they are scrapping it out for 1.5% of the quota. So they are
:00:01. > :00:06.concerned that fair distribution of quarter has devolved. Those same
:00:07. > :00:12.small-scale fishermen are very highly dependent on exports, as your
:00:13. > :00:15.piece identified, especially shellfish, to France, Italy and
:00:16. > :00:21.Spain, and they are concerned about the impact of tariffs and other
:00:22. > :00:23.things. Bertie Armstrong, what is venting your members doing what they
:00:24. > :00:30.have done in the past after breakfast and fishing out of the
:00:31. > :00:34.sea? That is dismissive, -- in the past after Brexit. That is
:00:35. > :00:38.dismissive and insulting. The Scottish fishing fleet has never
:00:39. > :00:42.been smaller, and the reduction in stocks is to do with sacrifices
:00:43. > :00:51.among the fleet. It has happened in spite of the common fishing policy.
:00:52. > :00:56.There is self-interest in that. Why on earth would we wish to destroy
:00:57. > :01:02.the means of only if lewd? The simple answer is it has happened
:01:03. > :01:05.before. The Canadians wiped out their own cod stock. Yes, but look
:01:06. > :01:11.at the record of the Scottish fishing industry over the last
:01:12. > :01:18.decade. You will see an entirely different position. It is not one
:01:19. > :01:21.hacking through lessons of history, it is solid evidence of what
:01:22. > :01:28.happened over the last decade and a half. So, the distribution of stocks
:01:29. > :01:36.between -- catching opportunity between sectors is a source of
:01:37. > :01:42.debate, which will continue. The important point to note is the will
:01:43. > :01:46.be more opportunity for distribution. Chris Williams,
:01:47. > :01:49.briefly, I think he has conceded there will be international
:01:50. > :01:55.negotiations, which will largely be with the EU because of its EU boats
:01:56. > :02:03.that want quotas in these waters. How will that work? Something like
:02:04. > :02:07.80% of Danish fish are caught in UK waters. They will lose their jobs if
:02:08. > :02:16.we didn't negotiate some deal with them? It is fair to say that there
:02:17. > :02:21.are lots of European countries that fish our waters, they are landing
:02:22. > :02:27.four times UK vessels within Audi exclusive economic zone. But if we
:02:28. > :02:32.were to man that additional 650,000 tonnes of ourselves, do we have the
:02:33. > :02:35.capacity to catch it and process it and market it? Those are questions
:02:36. > :02:43.Bertie will probably have the answer to. Briefly, Bertie. Yes, we have
:02:44. > :02:47.the capacity to catch. The law will change, and with the greatest regret
:02:48. > :02:51.and sympathy for Danish colleagues, what will happen to them will happen
:02:52. > :02:55.to us -- will be what happened two hours after excellent. The
:02:56. > :03:01.sovereignty of the resource changes so they are losers and winners. That
:03:02. > :03:06.is the consequence. The winners will sustainably be us, in the United
:03:07. > :03:10.Kingdom. Having said that... Sorry, we have to leave it there.
:03:11. > :03:11.Well, it's been quite a week in Europe.
:03:12. > :03:13.The long-awaited Brexit talks finally got underway,
:03:14. > :03:16.but there was a lukewarm response to Theresa May's summit proposal
:03:17. > :03:20.I'm joined by Brussels' watcher Ryan Heath for his take
:03:21. > :03:26.on events so far and a look at what lies ahead.
:03:27. > :03:35.What do you think, we know the reaction in Europe has been pretty
:03:36. > :03:40.half-hearted to the individual -- the initial proposals on
:03:41. > :03:45.citizenships. More broadly, what approach are they taking at the
:03:46. > :03:50.moment. The key strength beer has is it as being very united, which is
:03:51. > :03:53.something that is in short supply on the British side of the
:03:54. > :04:05.negotiations. Soak in Brussels people were annoyed at the way she
:04:06. > :04:09.offered the citizenship discussions. They did not expect her to come
:04:10. > :04:14.through the side door whether it. But they have united position, and
:04:15. > :04:21.the UK seems to be more defining its ability to be strong, to host seeks
:04:22. > :04:25.it it can be or its position can be, rather than havoc mobilises the
:04:26. > :04:27.country behind it. So people here in Brussels are comfortable at the
:04:28. > :04:29.moment, but frustrated at the way the UK Government is handling the
:04:30. > :04:34.situation. The British government keeps saying, David Davis has been
:04:35. > :04:39.on television this morning, saying people in Europe, they want to do a
:04:40. > :04:45.free trade deal, they want to do a tariff free deal with us, they want
:04:46. > :04:51.to let us have access to Europe, and for them to have access to the UK
:04:52. > :04:53.with the minimum of hassle. Are those the vibes in Brussels, that
:04:54. > :04:57.everyone cannot wait to accommodate the United Kingdom? It is not quite
:04:58. > :05:02.that they cannot wait to accommodate the UK, but they realise that the
:05:03. > :05:07.economic interest is interest in doing the deal. The UK is
:05:08. > :05:11.fundamentally correct that assessment, but EU is also to take a
:05:12. > :05:15.hit if it means preserving the single market and it means sending a
:05:16. > :05:20.lesson to others who might want to leave. The UK could be the victim of
:05:21. > :05:23.the EU willing to stick to its guns. But hopefully they are willing to
:05:24. > :05:26.compromise and both sides are willing to simply put common sense
:05:27. > :05:38.positions at the table, rather than a wind loss situation. Unless all
:05:39. > :05:43.the discussions that year about trading goods, but Britain is
:05:44. > :05:51.largely a trait -- a service industry. If there are parallel
:05:52. > :05:58.willingness to negotiate free access for British services along with
:05:59. > :06:03.goods? That an excellent point and, yes there is the great dirty secret
:06:04. > :06:13.of the EU is that it treats the single market as it sacred cow. The
:06:14. > :06:19.EU defines itself as being. It doesn't really exist much for the
:06:20. > :06:25.services sector, so the single market is a bit of a myth. It has to
:06:26. > :06:29.do it via service trade deals because it doesn't exist
:06:30. > :06:33.independently of the trade deal. So there is a strong interest to keep
:06:34. > :06:35.on a centrist track and they would just like to have a stable
:06:36. > :06:39.government to negotiate with and they want to know that the UK is
:06:40. > :06:43.going to be there in six months or problems time. That is where if the
:06:44. > :06:51.UK can provide an front there can be a deal. Ryan Heath, thank you very
:06:52. > :06:57.much. I have to just bring some sadness that it's just been
:06:58. > :07:03.announced that Gordon Wilson, the former SNP leader, has died. He
:07:04. > :07:12.passed away earlier in hospital. He was leader of the next SNP from 1979
:07:13. > :07:17.to 1990. And as a regular guest on this programme. Time now for a look
:07:18. > :07:23.at the week ahead. With me now are author
:07:24. > :07:30.and journalist Katie Grant, who's alongside Sunday Times columnist
:07:31. > :07:32.and former SNP strategic communications director,
:07:33. > :07:38.Kevin Pringle. wrote Kevin that is sad news about
:07:39. > :07:42.good and Wilson, who will be less. Very sad indeed, my condolences to
:07:43. > :07:47.his family. I first worked with the SNP way back in 1989 and Gordon was
:07:48. > :07:53.the leader. He held that seat of Dundee East on the way through the
:07:54. > :07:58.1980s and very well many ways and untypical seat, and urban seat. He
:07:59. > :08:06.kept the party going through difficult times and three better
:08:07. > :08:13.times that lay ahead. Scottish life is a huge amount of Gordon -- to
:08:14. > :08:19.Gordon so today huge condolences to his family. , I imagine you didn't
:08:20. > :08:23.agree with much he said, Katie, but nonetheless he was always great fun
:08:24. > :08:31.and he was never shy of sticking a bard into the consensus when he
:08:32. > :08:34.fancied it? No, that will certainly be missed, so I do think that
:08:35. > :08:40.Scotland has lost somebody whose name will remain in the history
:08:41. > :08:45.books. We've lost, yak, I'm sorry about that. It seems we don't have
:08:46. > :08:53.many people who can do those sort of barbed things and make a point and
:08:54. > :08:59.get away with it. He was held in regard, right across parties, wasn't
:09:00. > :09:03.he? Some of his views, on things like same-sex marriage, were perhaps
:09:04. > :09:08.not in tune with the consensus in Scottish Parliament, but,
:09:09. > :09:12.nonetheless, he was regarded as not just good fun but as a serious
:09:13. > :09:17.thinker. And he was a serious thinker, wasn't he? He was, he was
:09:18. > :09:21.sometimes criticised for being a bit too moderate, but I always notice
:09:22. > :09:24.that within the party that he was always prepared to take a punt on a
:09:25. > :09:35.radical position if he thought it was justified and woodwork. The best
:09:36. > :09:41.example... It was a good tradition. As we got to hear, Kevin, Nicola
:09:42. > :09:45.Sturgeon is supposedly thinking long and hard. It used to be your job to
:09:46. > :09:52.do that, what would your advice be? What she should do about the second
:09:53. > :09:57.independence referendum? She does when thinking in that is right. I
:09:58. > :10:01.think that retaining a choice of independence is the right position.
:10:02. > :10:05.I think we're looking at the time scale at the moment. I think
:10:06. > :10:10.Scotland is in a better position than most of the rest of the UK...
:10:11. > :10:17.The timetable is crucial, if Nicola was to say, look were not going to
:10:18. > :10:22.go until the mid-20 20s. We'll stand in the next election and put it to
:10:23. > :10:29.discuss people then that's one thing, but to suggest that they
:10:30. > :10:33.might have a referendum before the next Scottish election before 2021,
:10:34. > :10:37.that leaves and open to the accusation that they are just
:10:38. > :10:46.obsessed with the independence. It leaves open the issue of choice.
:10:47. > :10:51.Scotland had voted substantially to retain, as Northern Ireland, these
:10:52. > :10:59.two project the UK have a democratic choice... 60% voted for parties who
:11:00. > :11:06.had Britain at the top of their manifest didn't they? Eye you can
:11:07. > :11:09.look at the fact that the SNP you deliver the fact that the SNP and
:11:10. > :11:13.the majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament last year, but I
:11:14. > :11:18.think Nicholas stood to put the issue in the context of choice --
:11:19. > :11:25.Nicola Sturgeon will want to put it in the context of choice. The
:11:26. > :11:29.locations are Brexit, when they come clear at the end of the
:11:30. > :11:33.negotiations, or potentially through to the actual exit itself, as we
:11:34. > :11:36.speak that timescale is very unclear. These things will only
:11:37. > :11:43.become clear as the negotiations go on. And in the UK wide programme I
:11:44. > :11:51.heard them talking about the trade act that are not really giving any
:11:52. > :11:58.exits antlers on that Young antlers on that. Is any sustainable pension,
:11:59. > :12:03.because of course Rick Davis is going to say aha? I would say that
:12:04. > :12:08.that is just like Ian Blackford trying to enter the question. Once
:12:09. > :12:13.the locations are Brexit become clear, which will probably become
:12:14. > :12:19.clear in the short term, job losses in the UK. The prospect of an
:12:20. > :12:25.independent Scotland departing from the UK is B even less attractive.
:12:26. > :12:28.Hang on, I know you against independence but you can't expect
:12:29. > :12:34.Kevin to be against independence. The question is whether it is now
:12:35. > :12:39.necessary for the Scottish Government to take that threat, or
:12:40. > :12:45.opportunity as they would say, off the table in order to start
:12:46. > :12:50.haemorrhaging votes. Because, you won the election, a 21 seat last,
:12:51. > :12:56.and as John Swinney has accepted, the referenda in business was part
:12:57. > :13:00.of that. Do they need to stop the haemorrhaging? Well, I suppose it
:13:01. > :13:03.comes along on many different levels. In order to stop the
:13:04. > :13:10.haemorrhaging of votes, it's not just about Brexit, it's about the
:13:11. > :13:14.domestic record. They do need to concentrate on the day job. I'm just
:13:15. > :13:18.saying that as a general thing, if you want to stop haemorrhaging
:13:19. > :13:20.votes, you need to stop really concentrating an independence
:13:21. > :13:28.referendum them and DJ job. Anyway referendum them and DJ job. Anyway
:13:29. > :13:31.-- D-Day job, they got themselves into a position where they have to
:13:32. > :13:38.talk about the referendum when they that Italy is profitable thing. Were
:13:39. > :13:43.easy to an MP was hanging on by tender hundreds and some of them
:13:44. > :13:51.are, what you say to them? I think we have to say that after Brexit
:13:52. > :13:54.it's increasingly attracted to have that choice. It's fundamentally
:13:55. > :14:01.about the choice of the people to decide the future and I think that
:14:02. > :14:06.is a popular position. That's the same position that they had before
:14:07. > :14:09.the election? I think they will find that the timescale is different and
:14:10. > :14:12.it is an attractive proposition of itself. Sadly that all the time we
:14:13. > :14:19.have for this week. I'll be back next week, until then, goodbye? .
:14:20. > :14:21.MUSIC: Spring from The Four Seasons by Vivaldi