:00:39. > :00:43.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:45.Donald Trump says he wants to do a "powerful" trade deal
:00:46. > :00:49.Theresa May says other countries are ready to talk too.
:00:50. > :00:52.But could the transitional deal with the EU that some are pushing
:00:53. > :00:55.for scupper the Prime Minister's plans?
:00:56. > :00:59.Having defied expectation in last month's general election,
:01:00. > :01:02.are Jeremy Corbyn and his allies about to purge the party
:01:03. > :01:09.The deadliest fire in London since the Second World War has
:01:10. > :01:12.devastated a community and shocked Britain, but will the political
:01:13. > :01:14.storm that's blown up in its aftermath help uncover
:01:15. > :01:21.And on Sunday Politics Scotland: Far from going into recession
:01:22. > :01:25.But is there still an underlying problem?
:01:26. > :01:45.I'll be talking to the Economy Secretary Keith Brown.
:01:46. > :01:52.If we are darking today we apoll jierks it could be a power cut or
:01:53. > :01:56.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:01:57. > :01:56.them... And with me - as always -
:01:57. > :02:00.for TV's second most keenly watched on-screen relationships
:02:01. > :02:01.after Love Island, the Sunday Politics panel -
:02:02. > :02:03.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer They'll be tweeting
:02:04. > :02:09.throughout the programme. So - Donald Trump says a trade
:02:10. > :02:12.deal with UK could be Theresa May says that
:02:13. > :02:15.other world leaders, including those of China,
:02:16. > :02:18.India and Japan, are also keen to do President and PM were speaking at
:02:19. > :02:22.the G20 summit of the world's major President and PM were speaking at
:02:23. > :02:26.the G20 summit of the world's major But could the transitional
:02:27. > :02:29.deal that some want, that would keep the UK in the EU's
:02:30. > :02:32.single market and Customs Union for several years after exit,
:02:33. > :02:35.put paid to those plans? Here's what the man likely to be
:02:36. > :02:38.the next Lib Dem leader - Vince Cable - told the Marr show
:02:39. > :02:45.earlier. I'm beginning to think that
:02:46. > :02:47.Brexit may never happen, The problems are so enormous,
:02:48. > :02:54.the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous,
:02:55. > :02:59.I can see a scenario We're joined now from
:03:00. > :03:07.Shropshire by the former Conservative Cabinet Minister
:03:08. > :03:13.and leading Brexit Ogise, it could be a power cut or
:03:14. > :03:15.the BBC is trying to save money with its fuel bill! Assuming you can see
:03:16. > :03:18.them... Good morning to you, Vince Cable says that he thinks Brexit may
:03:19. > :03:23.now not happen, what do you say to that? What is new? Vince Cable
:03:24. > :03:28.always wanted to stay in the European Union, he is chucking
:03:29. > :03:33.buckets of water round, we had a huge vote last year, we had an
:03:34. > :03:38.enormous vote in the House of Commons, 494 votes to trigger
:03:39. > :03:43.Article 50, we had an election campaign in which the two main
:03:44. > :03:48.parties took 85% of the vote they back the speech and leaving the
:03:49. > :03:52.customs union and the single market and the ECJ and Vince Cable's party
:03:53. > :03:56.went down in votes as did the other parties that want to stay in the
:03:57. > :04:01.European Union. So Vince is behind history, we are going to leave, we
:04:02. > :04:05.are on target, Michael Gove triggered leaving the 1964 London
:04:06. > :04:11.convention so we can take back control of the seas and bring back a
:04:12. > :04:14.sane fishing policy and more important getting environmental
:04:15. > :04:20.gained in our marine environment, so... You think we are still heading
:04:21. > :04:24.for the exit but Mrs May called the election because she wanted a
:04:25. > :04:28.mandate for her version of Brexit. She didn't get it. Surely you can't
:04:29. > :04:32.just continue with business as usual? Well, we have been over the
:04:33. > :04:39.election, we did not get the number of sees we wanted but on votes, we
:04:40. > :04:43.got 13.7 million, that is more than the great Blair landslide. You had
:04:44. > :04:50.an overall majority and you lost it. That is a fact. I said that. We know
:04:51. > :04:55.that. So you didn't get the mandate. We got the vote! We got a lot votes
:04:56. > :04:58.and so did the Labour Party. You know we are in a Parliamentary
:04:59. > :05:02.system where what matters is the number of seats you get in the
:05:03. > :05:05.Commons, you know enough about the British constitution to know a that
:05:06. > :05:09.is what determines the mandate. Not the number of votes, we are not a
:05:10. > :05:14.Presidential system. I am First Minister throughly wear
:05:15. > :05:18.of that. 85% of the election voted for parties that wanted to leave. If
:05:19. > :05:22.you take votes in the Commons last week on the Queen's Speech not a
:05:23. > :05:27.single Conservative MP abstained or voted against and the Labour Party
:05:28. > :05:35.unwisely, Chuka Umunna triggered and amendment wanting us to stay in the
:05:36. > :05:40.customs union and got hammered. So, I am clear that we have to deliver
:05:41. > :05:46.this, much the most important point in all this, is if we do not deliver
:05:47. > :05:53.a proper Brexit which means leaving the single market, leaving the
:05:54. > :05:57.customs union and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, there will be appalling
:05:58. > :06:01.damage to the integrity of the whole establishment. Not just political,
:06:02. > :06:07.you, the media, and the judicial establishment. Some would say that
:06:08. > :06:12.damage has already been done in other area, let us look at the
:06:13. > :06:15.detail. Under Article 50 Britain leaves the EU in 20 months which
:06:16. > :06:21.means the deal will have to be done in 15 or 16 months to allow for
:06:22. > :06:26.people to approve it in the various Parliaments and so son. Progress has
:06:27. > :06:31.the been glacial. We have only just begun. Why should there not be a
:06:32. > :06:36.transitional deal that keep some of the current arrangements in place to
:06:37. > :06:43.mitigate this falling off a cliff? As Liam said in the Commons, Liam
:06:44. > :06:48.who? Liam Fox, this should be one of the easiest ever deals to conclude,
:06:49. > :06:52.because already, we have zero tariffs, already we have complete
:06:53. > :07:00.conformty on standards and already, those who are negotiating with us
:07:01. > :07:04.have an enormous surplus, the Germans sold an enormous number of
:07:05. > :07:11.cars, so that is the basis on which, if you look at Nafta... We haven't
:07:12. > :07:20.even started talking about free trade yet. That is not on the agenda
:07:21. > :07:25.yet. Let me finish. If you look at Nafta, that took 14 months, we are
:07:26. > :07:31.starting on a basis of mutual recognition of all our standard and
:07:32. > :07:35.zero tariffs so yes, there will be an implementation period but it is
:07:36. > :07:39.very very important politically this is concluded fast, as a huge
:07:40. > :07:43.economic imperative as well, because it is uncertainty about this that
:07:44. > :07:47.will damage future investment and job, the quicker we get on with it
:07:48. > :07:52.and we know where we are going and we can reach out to the world, we
:07:53. > :07:56.can take advantage of the fact stated on the European Commission
:07:57. > :08:01.website that 9 a 5% of the world's growth is going to come from outside
:08:02. > :08:07.European Union, which is what we are seeing, we have seen sales go from
:08:08. > :08:13.61% to 43% and it is tumbling to 43%. We cannot take advantage of
:08:14. > :08:20.these wonderful opportunities in the wider world... Why not? Why not?
:08:21. > :08:26.Germany does. Because they can't conclude free trade deals. Germany
:08:27. > :08:29.runs a balance of payment surplus, it finds it possible to trade with
:08:30. > :08:35.the rest of the EU and with the rest of the world. It has a bigger
:08:36. > :08:41.surplus than China, if Germany can do both why can't we? They can't.
:08:42. > :08:49.They can't conclude deal, we Trump wants to do a deal with us. You saw
:08:50. > :08:54.Theresa May sitting down with the economies of the future, India,
:08:55. > :09:01.China, South Korea, these are all longing to do more business with us,
:09:02. > :09:04.we can only do that once we are out of the customs union, that is vital
:09:05. > :09:09.for the future of this country, that is where the future growth is. The
:09:10. > :09:13.business in this country says we should stay in the single market and
:09:14. > :09:23.the customs union, at least through a transition period. Does that count
:09:24. > :09:27.for nothing, is Tory party now so antebusiness it ignores the wealth
:09:28. > :09:32.creators? I think what you are saying is that the CBI which
:09:33. > :09:37.represents very large organisations has made that statement, but talking
:09:38. > :09:40.to business widely, and smaller private businesses which dominate
:09:41. > :09:44.the economy, what is vital on this is to have a rapid implementation
:09:45. > :09:50.period. That is what is important. And there has to be clarity of where
:09:51. > :09:55.we are going, if we are in permanent limbo which will take a enormous
:09:56. > :09:58.amount of negotiation and will take ratification by the 27 countries and
:09:59. > :10:04.the European Parliament as well as our own, that will drag things out.
:10:05. > :10:08.What we need to do is a clean Claire statement of reciprocal free trade
:10:09. > :10:13.which should be really pretty easy to negotiate because we have that,
:10:14. > :10:17.we have conformty of standard, we have an implementation period. That
:10:18. > :10:22.needs to be done rapidly. Latest by the next election. OK, we shall see
:10:23. > :10:25.how simple it turns out to be. Thank you for joining us here.
:10:26. > :10:31.What do you make of this increasing talk of transition period in which
:10:32. > :10:36.it is not clear, we remain full members of the single market, full
:10:37. > :10:40.members of the customs union? Which came we cannot conclude very
:10:41. > :10:47.quickly, in Mr Trump's word a free trade deal? This is where the battle
:10:48. > :10:53.is now heading, between Brexiteer, levers, re-levers and the lot of it.
:10:54. > :10:58.This will be really what the only thing we could achieve in the next
:10:59. > :11:02.negotiations, what has changed since the general election which you were
:11:03. > :11:06.touching on there, is of course Brussels in the year 2017 are no
:11:07. > :11:11.longer negotiating with Theresa May, they are negotiating with the House
:11:12. > :11:15.of Commons and the you know majority for a softer Brexit, so this will
:11:16. > :11:19.begin, the transition deal will define the rest of deal, the rest of
:11:20. > :11:22.the final relationship, so getting the transition on the right
:11:23. > :11:28.trajectory is crucial, hence why you have Philip Hammond making a major
:11:29. > :11:31.play to try and keep one foot in the EU, if not necessarily in the custom
:11:32. > :11:36.union and the single market and everyone else says get out. These
:11:37. > :11:39.are the opening skirmishes on what will certainly be the nettle that
:11:40. > :11:44.will will be grasped round about some time between October and spring
:11:45. > :11:47.next year. Are you worried that the election result, the fact that she
:11:48. > :11:51.didn't get this mandate that she had looked for and she has ended up in a
:11:52. > :11:55.weaker position than she was before the election, is going to make
:11:56. > :12:00.Brexit more difficult, it is going to muddy the water, it means her
:12:01. > :12:07.idea of Brexit is not necessarily the one that become Brexit? Yes I am
:12:08. > :12:12.worried are about as a Brexiteer, the same remain yaks would have been
:12:13. > :12:21.trying to scupper the will of the British people as expressed in June
:12:22. > :12:26.2016. Now they might succeed. I don't think any will succeed. We
:12:27. > :12:30.have to stop this nonsense and the media included, of this talk of soft
:12:31. > :12:34.Brexit an transition period. We have a transition period once we are out
:12:35. > :12:38.when we are leading to the next process, with have to be out of the
:12:39. > :12:42.single market, and not under the European Court of Justice. All
:12:43. > :12:49.within the two years, all by March... That happens automatically,
:12:50. > :12:53.then we can agree for a two, three year max, three year period we will
:12:54. > :12:59.have a position as we move to the new deal, but I don't think there
:13:00. > :13:02.many Leave voters, most Remain voters accept that result, unlike
:13:03. > :13:06.the people like the CBI who are fighting against it still, they will
:13:07. > :13:12.accept anything more than that. I think Owen Paterson is right. We are
:13:13. > :13:16.in a situation where we will face some serious disflus the
:13:17. > :13:21.establishment, the political world, the Melissa Reidia if we don't obey
:13:22. > :13:28.the will of the people. What do you make of the reports in the Sunday
:13:29. > :13:32.papers, it was only ten days ago, two weeks' ago Mr Hammond was going
:13:33. > :13:38.to be the caretaker leader, that is a story that didn't seem to last
:13:39. > :13:43.48-hour, but what do you make of the remain MPs on both sides of the
:13:44. > :13:51.House, plus peers, are going to try to derail this repeal act, that the
:13:52. > :13:56.Government needs to push EU law on to the UK statute book. I I think
:13:57. > :14:00.they will use it to at certain key points to attempt to defeat the
:14:01. > :14:06.Government, not over the whole thing, this summer reminds me so
:14:07. > :14:10.much of the summer of 92 who the Maastricht Treaty coming into a
:14:11. > :14:15.fragile John Major Government, and people then were plotting, in the
:14:16. > :14:19.opposite direction, Eurosceptics to try and stop that. He won with a
:14:20. > :14:28.huge percentage of the vote. Tiny majority, 23, bigger than she would
:14:29. > :14:33.have died for that. A shock victory. The The summer was full of talk and
:14:34. > :14:36.plotting, some which came to fruition in the sessions after and
:14:37. > :14:40.some will come into fruition from this autumn on ward where you will
:14:41. > :14:43.see alliances across the Commons manned the Lords, there will be
:14:44. > :14:46.moments of high Parliamentary drama, I think. Sounds like a long hot
:14:47. > :15:00.autumn. An a long hot autumn, and winter.
:15:01. > :15:04.Winter too? I thought it was all global warming. This will add to the
:15:05. > :15:06.Now, Jeremy Corbyn may not have won the election,
:15:07. > :15:08.but by confounding almost everyone's expectations he is unassailable
:15:09. > :15:10.as Labour leader for the foreseeable future.
:15:11. > :15:14.So what does that mean for his MPs, most of whom - just a year ago -
:15:15. > :15:23.Labour's new chairman and key cupping Ally said last week the
:15:24. > :15:28.party may be too broad church. He also seemed to endorse the idea of
:15:29. > :15:32.deselecting labour MPs critical of the leadership by saying if you get
:15:33. > :15:34.deselected there must be a reason. But he has since wrote back from his
:15:35. > :15:37.deselected there must be a reason. comments in another interview. Chris
:15:38. > :15:40.deselected there must be a reason. Williamson, the newly appointed
:15:41. > :15:44.labour frontbencher said some of his colleagues in the Parliamentary
:15:45. > :15:50.party think they have a God-given right to rule. He also said that if
:15:51. > :15:54.MPs don't support the leadership's programme, local constituency
:15:55. > :15:59.parties should find someone else who will. And in the seat of liveable
:16:00. > :16:04.waiver treats this week, left wing supporters of Jeremy Corbyn won
:16:05. > :16:09.several positions on the committee. One said she must get on board quite
:16:10. > :16:15.quickly now, and also publicly apologise for not supporting Mr
:16:16. > :16:25.Corbyn in the past. Some Labour MPs rushed to Luciano Berger's defends.
:16:26. > :16:29.Elsewhere, a list of 49 Labour MPs was published, and they said these
:16:30. > :16:33.usual suspects should join the Liberals. The list included
:16:34. > :16:37.prominent former frontbencher is like Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and
:16:38. > :16:42.tidying -- Heidi Alexander. And this is what the Shadow
:16:43. > :16:44.Education Secretary and Jeremy Corbyn ally,
:16:45. > :16:46.Angela Rayner, had to say earlier. Anyone that talks of deselecting
:16:47. > :16:48.any of my colleagues, frankly they need to think
:16:49. > :16:51.about actually, who are Who are making the problems
:16:52. > :16:57.for our communities at the moment? Who have made those disastrous
:16:58. > :17:00.policies that are hurting the people It doesn't help them if we're
:17:01. > :17:03.fighting each other. We're joined now from
:17:04. > :17:05.Sheffield by former Labour Cabinet Minister,
:17:06. > :17:17.Caroline Flint. Welcome to the programme. Labour
:17:18. > :17:23.frontbencher Chris Williamson has said, where Labour MPs don't support
:17:24. > :17:27.the leadership's programme it's incumbent on local members to find
:17:28. > :17:38.someone else who will. What do you make of that? I think it's very sad
:17:39. > :17:43.that talk of deselection is the line people are taking. We had an
:17:44. > :17:50.election where 262 Labour MPs, very different ones, have all won a
:17:51. > :17:54.mandate from their electorate and our job is, as Angela Rayner said
:17:55. > :17:57.this morning, is to focus on a government that is in disarray and
:17:58. > :18:00.how we can learn from the general election to broaden our appeal but
:18:01. > :18:05.also develop our policy is ready in time for the next election whenever
:18:06. > :18:11.that is called so I think all talk of deselection is misplaced and
:18:12. > :18:18.doesn't help Labour. But do you feel a purge of what is often referred to
:18:19. > :18:22.as the moderates in your party is now inevitable? No, because we have
:18:23. > :18:25.been here before in the 1980s when talk of deselection was suggested,
:18:26. > :18:31.it didn't happen in the way people thought it would, and I do believe,
:18:32. > :18:40.hearing how Ian Lee very, and I have worked with him in the 2010, 2015
:18:41. > :18:47.government and I have worked with Chris Williamson, Ian has already
:18:48. > :18:51.refined what he said, and what he's clearly was this deselection talk
:18:52. > :18:58.and the way to go ahead on it is not the right way forward. We to focus
:18:59. > :19:02.on looking outwards to understand that we have across the party
:19:03. > :19:05.hard-working Labour MPs with maybe different views across the Labour
:19:06. > :19:15.political spectrum, and I would have to say that Luciana is one of the
:19:16. > :19:19.most hard-working MPs in Parliament and homework on mental health is
:19:20. > :19:26.outstanding. That may be true, let's look at Luciana Berger's
:19:27. > :19:31.constituency. One of the committee members on her committee says she
:19:32. > :19:38.now has to get on board quite quickly. And even publicly apologise
:19:39. > :19:45.for past disloyalty. The direction of travel is clear, isn't it? That
:19:46. > :19:50.is one person on a committee in one constituency... Where there is a
:19:51. > :19:59.majority for that point of view now. I don't think there is, and the
:20:00. > :20:02.truth is... They took nine seat. Her constituency is all of the members
:20:03. > :20:05.in that constituency and what I would say, and I don't know this
:20:06. > :20:14.individual, look at the track record of Luciana and what she has done.
:20:15. > :20:18.Jeremy, in the 20 years I have been an MP under both Tony Blair and
:20:19. > :20:23.Gordon Brown, voted against the Labour whip on numerous occasions,
:20:24. > :20:28.he has been very upfront and honest about this, do you know in those 20
:20:29. > :20:32.years I never heard anybody say about Jeremy or anybody else who
:20:33. > :20:37.didn't vote with the Labour whip that they should face deselection or
:20:38. > :20:42.apologise. I think that represents the broad church of the Labour Party
:20:43. > :20:46.and we should look at what brings us together rather than differences on
:20:47. > :20:51.policy point of view and we should be looking outwards and dealing with
:20:52. > :20:55.that and working on it. You have said that three times but it has not
:20:56. > :20:58.happened and it may be that the people around Mr Corbyn, they think
:20:59. > :21:04.moderates like you, your day is over. You lost the 2015 election
:21:05. > :21:09.badly, you allowed Jeremy Corbyn to stand as leader, you failed to stop
:21:10. > :21:14.him twice, you thought he would make a mess of the June election and he
:21:15. > :21:18.didn't. Can you blame his supporters for wanting a career out of people
:21:19. > :21:22.who took these positions? I think there are some people who supported
:21:23. > :21:28.and still support Jeremy who feel that way but I don't believe they
:21:29. > :21:31.represent the people who supported Jeremy, and I don't believe Jeremy
:21:32. > :21:36.thinks this is in the best interests of the party. Only a few weeks ago
:21:37. > :21:42.John McDonnell praised my work on tax transparency. Since my election
:21:43. > :21:45.I have bumped into Jeremy and we have had a chat about what happened
:21:46. > :21:54.in the election and Jeremy recognises that we were up against
:21:55. > :21:58.an arrogant Tory party and has said to me he does understand this and
:21:59. > :22:04.said to the broader Parliamentary Labour Party... If I could just
:22:05. > :22:14.finish... What has he said about deselection? For example he said to
:22:15. > :22:20.me that he recognised that we have won in numerous places in
:22:21. > :22:24.outstanding circumstances but he's also said to me that he recognises
:22:25. > :22:26.that we need to broaden our reach and understand why we were
:22:27. > :22:33.working-class voters. That says to me that that is a leader who is up
:22:34. > :22:37.for and open to looking at the reasons why we were successful and
:22:38. > :22:43.the reasons we weren't and he wasn't closing down conversation on that. I
:22:44. > :22:48.take him on his word on that. He has not said that publicly. What we need
:22:49. > :22:52.from a leader is to challenge our party about where to go next and he
:22:53. > :22:57.has said that, Diane Abbott has said at a conference I was at a few weeks
:22:58. > :23:01.ago that we need now to look at our manifesto and look more clearly
:23:02. > :23:04.issues around tax and spend policies because obviously clearly now we
:23:05. > :23:08.have more time to look at those issues and also we may be facing a
:23:09. > :23:12.very different election when the time comes. That's what I want from
:23:13. > :23:16.the leadership team, talk about how we improve our message and reach,
:23:17. > :23:26.and by doing that get away from what song, a minority I have to say, are
:23:27. > :23:29.saying about deselection. Corbynistas like Paul Mason think
:23:30. > :23:34.moderates like you were to blame for the defeat. He said moderates were
:23:35. > :23:46.always attacking Mr Corbyn, that is quite popular view in the Jeremy
:23:47. > :23:50.Corbyn wing. I think that is Paul Mason's view and he is fundamentally
:23:51. > :23:56.wrong. When we look at the results of the last election, we can see a
:23:57. > :24:01.continuing from 2015 where Labour is losing support among older voters
:24:02. > :24:08.and what we see is in this election in 2017 Labour has... I think we are
:24:09. > :24:12.at our highest point amongst the middle-class voters compared to
:24:13. > :24:18.where we were in 1979 but the Tories are highest among working-class
:24:19. > :24:22.voters since 1979 as well. Those working-class voters weren't voting
:24:23. > :24:26.for a more left alternative to Labour and sadly they were voting
:24:27. > :24:29.Tory and we have to address that because our party is this broad
:24:30. > :24:32.church and representing working-class people is at the heart
:24:33. > :24:36.of what the Labour Party is about and that's a discussion we need to
:24:37. > :24:42.have. That is the depth of discussion we need to get into. That
:24:43. > :24:48.would put's with a fighting chance of taking on a Tory party that is in
:24:49. > :24:50.disarray. Caroline Flint, thank you for joining us.
:24:51. > :24:53.This week it was announced that the Grenfell Tower inquiry
:24:54. > :24:55.would hold its first public hearings in September, as it prepares
:24:56. > :24:57.to begin to examine what caused the tragedy.
:24:58. > :24:59.But some have warned that the situation now needs
:25:00. > :25:01.to be de-politicised, or it will damage
:25:02. > :25:05.In a moment we'll hear from the MP for Kensington and Chelsea
:25:06. > :25:07.where the Grenfell Tower fire took place.
:25:08. > :25:09.But first Emma Vardy looks at how political arguments have played
:25:10. > :25:25.a significant part in the aftermath of this terrible event.
:25:26. > :25:29.When you come here and you actually see it, your immediate thoughts
:25:30. > :25:33.are about the people, not about the politics.
:25:34. > :25:37.What happened up there is just so difficult to comprehend.
:25:38. > :25:44.But in the days after this tragedy, there was such outrage
:25:45. > :25:46.at governments and authorities, it became a political
:25:47. > :25:48.storm that those in power struggled to respond to.
:25:49. > :25:53.We want justice, we want justice, we want justice...
:25:54. > :26:01.People vented their anger outside Kensington town Hall.
:26:02. > :26:04.A visit to the Grenfell site by Theresa May saw her forced
:26:05. > :26:12.At Prime Minister's Questions, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn linked
:26:13. > :26:18.What the tragedy of Grenfell Tower has exposed is a disastrous
:26:19. > :26:22.And speaking at Glastonbury, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
:26:23. > :26:29.Those families, those individuals, 79 so far and there will be more,
:26:30. > :26:39.were murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
:26:40. > :26:42.I can't remember a major national tragedy that has been politicised
:26:43. > :26:48.I think using terms like murder is completely reckless
:26:49. > :26:56.The key thing is that we try to ascertain the facts
:26:57. > :26:59.this tragedy occurred to ensure it can never be repeated.
:27:00. > :27:02.And as soon as you introduce emotive phrases or emotive accusations
:27:03. > :27:04.or emotive allegations of that nature, then the discourse
:27:05. > :27:10.The whole debate around the tragedy becomes politicised and it makes it
:27:11. > :27:20.Some argue the political language that was used was wrong and helped
:27:21. > :27:24.to ramp up the vitriol in an unhelpful way, but
:27:25. > :27:29.for others, it was entirely justified.
:27:30. > :27:31.That's what an opposition party is for, it's to challenge
:27:32. > :27:38.the Government and to ask the right questions and I think people
:27:39. > :27:40.round here would say thank goodness, there's somebody in politics
:27:41. > :27:43.Pilgrim Tucker had helped Grenfell Tower residents campaign
:27:44. > :27:45.for building improvements in previous years, and returned
:27:46. > :27:49.I've been to meetings before the fire and I've been
:27:50. > :27:52.to meetings since the fire, attended by ordinary residents
:27:53. > :27:57.with no involvement in politics and they are saying very political
:27:58. > :27:59.things about land in London and property ownership in London,
:28:00. > :28:04.Had we campaigned harder, would we have prevented this?
:28:05. > :28:09.Fire safety campaigners say they were trying to draw attention
:28:10. > :28:13.to certain issues long before what happened at Grenfell Tower,
:28:14. > :28:25.and say it's no one political party but the whole system has failed.
:28:26. > :28:28.It's easy to say, "You've got an inquiry, let's wait for that."
:28:29. > :28:30.We already know two very clear things.
:28:31. > :28:32.Had the people there been protected by sprinklers,
:28:33. > :28:35.People don't die in homes protected by sprinklers.
:28:36. > :28:37.The second thing is the outrage that the building regulations had
:28:38. > :28:41.They should be done year in, year out.
:28:42. > :28:43.Generally people in house fires die in ones, twos
:28:44. > :28:45.or threes, which doesn't make a political statement.
:28:46. > :28:47.So the political parties haven't really needed
:28:48. > :28:52.They weren't prepared for 70 or more people to die at once
:28:53. > :28:56.The public inquiry, which will address some of those issues,
:28:57. > :28:57.has already faced calls for its newly appointed
:28:58. > :29:02.And that was a view echoed by the Labour MP
:29:03. > :29:07.You would call on him, would you, to stand down?
:29:08. > :29:13.I don't think there will be any credibility and some people
:29:14. > :29:16.are saying they won't cooperate with it so it's not going to work.
:29:17. > :29:21.I will look into this matter to the very best of my ability...
:29:22. > :29:24.I think the attacks on the chair have to cease, I think the attacks
:29:25. > :29:30.It actually makes it harder to get to the facts and get
:29:31. > :29:35.to the truth and that's the most important thing now.
:29:36. > :29:38.Some said it was unavoidable that this tragedy became political,
:29:39. > :29:47.but will the politics help get to the truth?
:29:48. > :29:49.I'm joined now by the Labour MP for Kensington -
:29:50. > :29:52.who we heard at the end of that film - Emma Dent Coad.
:29:53. > :30:03.Now this judge, leading the Grenfell inquiry, have you met him? I haven't
:30:04. > :30:07.met him, no. So what evidence do you have that he doesn't in your words
:30:08. > :30:12.understand human beings? Well, I am reflecting what people are telling
:30:13. > :30:16.me out there, that they as soon as his name was announced everybody
:30:17. > :30:21.looked up his credentials, they found a particular case he had been
:30:22. > :30:26.involved in, the very issue that people are most worried about, post
:30:27. > :30:30.Grenfell is they will be moved out of the borough somewhere else. This
:30:31. > :30:34.issue about social cleansing. It was insensitive to have chosen somebody
:30:35. > :30:38.with that on his record. Whether he made that decision according to the
:30:39. > :30:43.rules. It is one judgment in a long career, he may be able to defend
:30:44. > :30:46.what he did. You have said he doesn't understand human beings but
:30:47. > :30:50.you have told us you have never met him? It is nothing to do with
:30:51. > :30:54.meeting him. It is the system where people have to be friends in order
:30:55. > :30:58.to work together, judged by the evidence, judge by what people have
:30:59. > :31:01.done that, judge by merit and whether or not you can be friendly.
:31:02. > :31:07.What has he done wrong in his career? It is symbolic the issue he
:31:08. > :31:10.made a decision about, it is symbolic for everybody. I am
:31:11. > :31:15.reflecting the community who are been betrayed. You don't think in
:31:16. > :31:19.your often view you don't take the view he doesn't understand human
:31:20. > :31:22.beings. Personally I do. I do actually but I am reflecting what
:31:23. > :31:25.people are saying, the people who elected me, who have been badly
:31:26. > :31:31.betrayed by the authority, they are seeing it that way, they have been
:31:32. > :31:36.betrayed and now they see you know, they worst fear is this will be used
:31:37. > :31:41.top socially cleanse north Kensington. What is the evidence for
:31:42. > :31:45.that? About social cleansing? No, this will be used to do so. Whether
:31:46. > :31:50.or not there is ever, there is no trust in somebody who has been part
:31:51. > :31:53.of that process. He has been chosen by the Lord Chief Justice, not as
:31:54. > :32:00.the Prime Minister as some have said. He has a long ex perness of
:32:01. > :32:05.commercial contracts and disaster, both of which will be vital. It is a
:32:06. > :32:10.lot to do with overlapping commercial contract, he is a
:32:11. > :32:14.specialist in that area, what bit doesn't make his qualified and and
:32:15. > :32:18.doesn't he reflect the independence of the judiciary? Well, we certainly
:32:19. > :32:21.need somebody who can do the detail. This is a human disaster as much as
:32:22. > :32:25.anything else. We need somebody who, we saw in the meeting there, there
:32:26. > :32:30.is a lot of anger and people aren't trusting. . That would be true, we
:32:31. > :32:34.all understand the anger, of course, but that would be true whoever was
:32:35. > :32:39.chosen. Are you really after... Do you want someone to head up this
:32:40. > :32:42.inquiry that will give you a show trial rather than an independent
:32:43. > :32:47.inquiry. It is exactly the opposite. . Woe won't give us a show trial, is
:32:48. > :32:50.he? If there is no trust, people won't co-operate with him. A lot of
:32:51. > :32:56.people will need to co-operate with him. Some of the groups are not
:32:57. > :33:03.involved, they are protest groups who are not representing the
:33:04. > :33:06.victims, or the survivors, we have very little evidence that those who
:33:07. > :33:11.directly affected by this are saying they are not going to co-operate.
:33:12. > :33:16.Well, everybody who lives round there is a victim to some extent,
:33:17. > :33:20.they have all been affected, myself as well, I live three blocksia from
:33:21. > :33:24.it and a lot of the groups are very much involved in that community, not
:33:25. > :33:28.only the people who lived there who survived, but some of the campaign
:33:29. > :33:32.groups have been campaigning for years about social housing in area.
:33:33. > :33:38.What sort of person to you think should head up the inquiry is this
:33:39. > :33:42.If it has to be Martin, we need an advisory panel with representatives
:33:43. > :33:46.from different groups who can at least advise and feed in
:33:47. > :33:50.information, at least if we have no choice, we need at least that. But
:33:51. > :33:54.rather than him, what sort of person? I am not sure, are you
:33:55. > :34:00.saying he should remain but he needs to be assisted by a panel or he
:34:01. > :34:03.should be replaced? If we have no choice, then we should have an
:34:04. > :34:07.advisory panel to back it up. Something that people trust in. At
:34:08. > :34:11.the moment they don't trust the process, which is understandable,
:34:12. > :34:15.and his name was announced the same day as the Hillsborough disaster,
:34:16. > :34:19.the criminal investigation and so on, that after 28 year, this is what
:34:20. > :34:22.people, how people see it. They want, they don't trust the process s
:34:23. > :34:28.it won't work proppism it is not just what I think, it is what people
:34:29. > :34:32.who are directly involved thing. John McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor
:34:33. > :34:35.says people who died at Grenfell were murdered by political decision
:34:36. > :34:40.do you agree? That is a strong way of putting it. I know a lot of
:34:41. > :34:43.people feel like that. There is massive failure of political
:34:44. > :34:48.decision, I have seen that happening. But murder? That is an
:34:49. > :34:54.active verb. It means you intended to kill. So for Mr McDonnell to be
:34:55. > :34:57.right, these were political decisions taken intended to kill. I
:34:58. > :35:02.don't share his view on that particular issue, there has been a
:35:03. > :35:05.failure of care, for many, many years and a failure of investment
:35:06. > :35:11.for many year, as I have seen myself. But part of the problem has
:35:12. > :35:12.been investment. They had nine million spent on this block I was
:35:13. > :35:20.looking at it today, the other tower blocks round it have not been clad.
:35:21. > :35:25.Of course if they had gone on fire, the disaster would not have been on
:35:26. > :35:30.the same scale. Nine million helped to produce this. In indeed. The
:35:31. > :35:37.process of how that building was refurbished. It says it is to make
:35:38. > :35:40.it look better, half a mile down the road, the tower blocks have been
:35:41. > :35:48.clad, they were clad in mineral wool. I spent a day at a seminar by
:35:49. > :35:54.chance understanding, it is non-combustible. Who made that
:35:55. > :36:01.decision to use rain cladding rather than mineral wool. You were on the
:36:02. > :36:05.the board of who took that decision. The council had no say about the
:36:06. > :36:09.specification, we didn't have any involvement at all. It didn't come
:36:10. > :36:16.before you, because it has tenants on it too. The TMO does, The
:36:17. > :36:21.advisory committee to the TMO. There is the TMO. I was not there at the
:36:22. > :36:25.time. As far as I understand a sub group decided or reviewed the
:36:26. > :36:30.specifications of that. The housing and property committee is part of
:36:31. > :36:34.the council. Obviously you a say, but whether or not, we don't have
:36:35. > :36:41.any say at all over specification, I want to say somebody because I have
:36:42. > :36:51.been accused of... That because my predecessor said I
:36:52. > :36:54.there is no foundation for that allegation. I thank you for clearing
:36:55. > :37:12.that up. Thank you for joining us too.
:37:13. > :37:13.Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
:37:14. > :37:18.A long way to go, but small signs of an economic improvement.
:37:19. > :37:27.So how does the Scottish Government ensure progress is maintained?
:37:28. > :37:29.And we hear from an organisation which hopes to do for
:37:30. > :37:35.Scottish Labour what Momentum has done for Jeremy Corbyn.
:37:36. > :37:39.There was relief all round this week as new figures showed the Scottish
:37:40. > :37:41.economy has not fallen into recession - in fact,
:37:42. > :37:43.it grew by 0.8% in the first quarter of this year,
:37:44. > :37:47.compared to growth of only 0.2% across the UK as a whole.
:37:48. > :37:51.Although growth across the UK had been stronger on an annual basis,
:37:52. > :37:54.some of the growth seems down to recovery in the oil and gas
:37:55. > :37:57.industry, which has been hammered by collapsing oil prices.
:37:58. > :37:59.But the question still remains: are Scotland's problems more
:38:00. > :38:04.Last week the former First Minister, Alex Salmond, called
:38:05. > :38:06.opposition politicians, economists, the media in general
:38:07. > :38:11.and this programme in particular 'merchants of doom' for our coverage
:38:12. > :38:14.So should we turn into dealers in delight?
:38:15. > :38:17.Or perhaps pay close attention to Mr Salmond's injunction not
:38:18. > :38:20.to take one set of figures too seriously - something we too
:38:21. > :38:23.pointed out, incidentally, in our coverage last week.
:38:24. > :38:30.Well, in a moment we'll speak to the Economy Minister Keith Brown.
:38:31. > :38:37.I spoke a little earlier to David Johnston, a digital entrepreneur,
:38:38. > :38:42.and to David Bell, an economist from Stirling University. Both of them
:38:43. > :38:44.featured in our report last week. You are both under strict
:38:45. > :38:51.instructions to have your best have the clappy demeanour on. These
:38:52. > :38:57.figures this week were pretty good, would they? I think they were. I
:38:58. > :39:00.think it is a reason to be glad about Scotland's economic
:39:01. > :39:04.performance. The trend had been, and I think this is what the forecasters
:39:05. > :39:08.have been looking at, relatively negative, but in the last quarter
:39:09. > :39:15.things have picked up a lot. Particularly in manufacturing. I
:39:16. > :39:20.guess the real issue here is, is that nothing to be explained? The
:39:21. > :39:24.Scottish Government's statisticians say that 60% of the relative
:39:25. > :39:32.underperformance of the Scottish economy over recent months has been
:39:33. > :39:38.due to the decline in oil and gas. But that leaves 40% to be explained.
:39:39. > :39:46.Is your view that there is something else to be explained? I think there
:39:47. > :39:48.are a political uncertainties around, but it's almost impossible
:39:49. > :39:57.to quantify what effects these might have. Part of the success of the
:39:58. > :40:03.rest of the UK, maybe, has been that it has been more successful in
:40:04. > :40:09.setting up complex value chains around the manufacturing sector cars
:40:10. > :40:12.and so on. Scotland doesn't quite have the critical mass around that.
:40:13. > :40:16.But I British are the Scottish Government is aware of this issue
:40:17. > :40:19.and is trying to do it, for example, in the food and drink industry,
:40:20. > :40:26.which is very important for our economy. What could they do? Is
:40:27. > :40:31.there a need for them to address this in the short term? Alex Salmond
:40:32. > :40:37.takes the view that because of the way the national accounts account
:40:38. > :40:40.for oil and gas, in other words that will production goes in the UK
:40:41. > :40:45.accounts, and when we talk about oil and gas in Scotland, it's only the
:40:46. > :40:52.economic activity surrounding it. There is nothing to explain, the
:40:53. > :41:02.underperformance is entirely under accounted for that. Even taking the
:41:03. > :41:05.employment and other activity, that is it in itself quite considerable.
:41:06. > :41:10.The wages of the people working in the industry and the activity around
:41:11. > :41:18.different parts of the country. It is bound to have a multiplier effect
:41:19. > :41:23.on other sectors of the Scottish economy, so I think oil and gas
:41:24. > :41:30.clearly is a pretty big explanation of where we have got to. It then
:41:31. > :41:33.begs the question, is there a need for the Scottish Government to be
:41:34. > :41:39.thinking of doing something in addition to what it was trying to do
:41:40. > :41:46.anyway, indeed can it do anything? I think it can do stuff, but that kind
:41:47. > :41:53.of stuff doesn't hit the headlines all that much. Also it's on a slow
:41:54. > :41:58.burner. The long-term performance of the Scottish economy has been pretty
:41:59. > :42:04.much in line with the rest of the UK, and we know the UK has a number
:42:05. > :42:07.of weaknesses in comparison with other developed countries.
:42:08. > :42:17.Particularly around issues like skills, but ownership, access to
:42:18. > :42:21.finance. -- entrepreneurship. The Scottish Government can do its own
:42:22. > :42:24.bid to a certain extent to address these issues, I think it is trying
:42:25. > :42:30.to do so, but a lot of that doesn't make the headlines. David Johnston,
:42:31. > :42:36.presumably you welcomed the figures we saw this week, although we should
:42:37. > :42:42.stress it is just one set of figures. The underlying growth, if
:42:43. > :42:46.you analyse the growth rate over the past year, Scotland is still lagging
:42:47. > :42:54.behind the rest of the UK. Do you think something other than the
:42:55. > :42:57.obvious effects are to blame? David mentioned small businesses getting
:42:58. > :43:02.access to finance. That's something the government could help with. It
:43:03. > :43:06.will definitely help us sort of grow the business and what we are trying
:43:07. > :43:10.to do, not just in the UK but we are looking further afield now to North
:43:11. > :43:18.America. We are finding that the services we provide in the states,
:43:19. > :43:22.we have the talent here and... You help people make websites?
:43:23. > :43:27.Basically, digital strategy all the way through to the design and build
:43:28. > :43:32.up of websites. Was held in July from the government you feel you're
:43:33. > :43:38.not getting? -- what helped do you feel you're not getting? Is a lot
:43:39. > :43:41.the private sector can do as well. One of the things we are a big
:43:42. > :43:47.proponent of this getting young people into digital at an early age.
:43:48. > :43:50.It's not just about working in our sector, but Digital is a great
:43:51. > :43:56.enabler for a lot of the difference work streams. Life sciences,
:43:57. > :44:02.renewable energy. We are members of the body called us like a body you
:44:03. > :44:07.read this and our industry. What can the government do that would help
:44:08. > :44:12.you? We spoke about access to finance. We are trying to develop a
:44:13. > :44:14.number of products that we think will help the business scale and
:44:15. > :44:20.grow. What we find is that there doesn't seem to be these sort of
:44:21. > :44:27.pots of money that we can access to do that. You were talking about
:44:28. > :44:32.loans? Loans or in some shape or form, something to help stimulate
:44:33. > :44:36.what we are trying to do. In places like California, I imagine someone
:44:37. > :44:42.might yourself would find a range of capital funds falling all over you.
:44:43. > :44:45.Yes, digital goals. We had a team member go to San Francisco, and it
:44:46. > :44:52.is a different world there in terms of people's... The likelihood of
:44:53. > :44:58.actually getting access to funds to do these things, to create these
:44:59. > :45:05.products. And actually stimulates the economy. Is there a case for...
:45:06. > :45:09.Labour this week have proposed ?20 billion Scottish investment. I know
:45:10. > :45:14.there is a Scottish investment bank already, but it doesn't seem to be
:45:15. > :45:20.anything like that size. Could that be a game changer? Is there a case
:45:21. > :45:26.for doing something pretty bowls? I am all for both strategies, but you
:45:27. > :45:32.have to be careful, because you run into difficulties of picking
:45:33. > :45:38.winners. We know the Scottish economy has some great companies
:45:39. > :45:43.that are innovative, but developing products which they can sell
:45:44. > :45:46.internationally. And it's important to support these. It's also
:45:47. > :45:53.important to realise that we have a long tail of companies that are less
:45:54. > :45:59.productive, and need some kind of stimulus to get them to innovate, to
:46:00. > :46:03.get them to take on more skilled workers. The question of how you use
:46:04. > :46:09.your finance, the strategy of doing that has to be fought through --
:46:10. > :46:15.thought through very carefully. The good kicking you are referring to,
:46:16. > :46:22.how could that be administered? You can do it passively by improving
:46:23. > :46:32.skills. Especially around the technical. College based, perhaps.
:46:33. > :46:37.That helps. All companies, if the quality of the Labour they are
:46:38. > :46:45.receiving is improved. Then the question is how do you particularly
:46:46. > :46:48.add value to the once you are instilling so well? I don't know, it
:46:49. > :46:55.might be that we need a more competitive environment. It is clear
:46:56. > :47:01.that some of our companies do very well in a competitive environment,
:47:02. > :47:08.but others just seem to roll along. You talked in the film we did last
:47:09. > :47:13.week about your concerns about not getting people equipped with the
:47:14. > :47:18.skills from, coming from university to companies like yours. What did
:47:19. > :47:21.you mean by that? They don't have specific computer skills? Or more
:47:22. > :47:27.generally they're not very literate and numerate? The skills we are
:47:28. > :47:31.looking for is far more than just literacy and numeracy. It is
:47:32. > :47:36.specific skill sets around developers, people who can do the
:47:37. > :47:44.actual coding of websites. You are not getting that? When we recruit,
:47:45. > :47:48.it seems to be, certainly in certain roles, we do struggle to find these
:47:49. > :47:52.people. That might not just be... We might not be an attractive company
:47:53. > :47:56.to work for, so there is end that we can do. I think it has to start a
:47:57. > :48:02.lot earlier than University, at schools. When I said earlier about
:48:03. > :48:10.digital skills being such an enabler, I think it has to start
:48:11. > :48:15.writing the beginning. Kids? Mobile phones, that's already happening.
:48:16. > :48:20.You hear the stories about kids touching papers and wondering why
:48:21. > :48:21.they're not interactive! You both maintain smiles on your face
:48:22. > :48:24.throughout, thank you very much. Well, I'm joined now by
:48:25. > :48:31.the Economy Secretary, Keith Brown. On the issue of whether there is
:48:32. > :48:36.something to be explained other than the obvious decline in oil and gas,
:48:37. > :48:42.what is your view? This is very good news, not just because of the four
:48:43. > :48:44.times the rate of the UK growth, but also productivity has increased. A
:48:45. > :48:49.record number of businesses in Scotland now. It's baffling
:48:50. > :48:53.performance once again for FDI in Scotland. On the negative side,
:48:54. > :48:57.there are two governments involved in this economy. Look what the UK
:48:58. > :49:00.Government is doing, nearly 3% inflation. ?100 billion for every
:49:01. > :49:06.year they have been in power in doubt. Ringing in new taxes like the
:49:07. > :49:09.apprenticeship levy. Taxes proposed for self-employed people. You have
:49:10. > :49:13.to get the two governments working together. It would be very useful to
:49:14. > :49:18.have a debate, and to get the UK Government to come out and say some
:49:19. > :49:22.of the things they should be doing in the Scottish economy. Get behind
:49:23. > :49:27.Scottish businesses. There is something to explain, but why should
:49:28. > :49:31.it be the UK Government's fault? The UK Government policies apply in
:49:32. > :49:35.England and Wales as well. Happiness explain a relative underperformance
:49:36. > :49:39.by the Scottish economy? I don't they get is a relative
:49:40. > :49:45.underperformance. Four times the rate of growth in Scotland's.
:49:46. > :49:56.Unemployment is lower in Scotland than it is in the rest of the UK.
:49:57. > :49:59.And things we keep Government could do Scottish economy, and the never
:50:00. > :50:03.challenged on these things, they are not made to come and justify these
:50:04. > :50:06.things. Perhaps it would be a good idea to do that everyone thanks
:50:07. > :50:14.these figures are really good this week. The Scottish economy as board
:50:15. > :50:19.and the UK economy has grown by more than 2%, so clearly there is an ICQ,
:50:20. > :50:23.and what I am asking is why should the UK Government policies explain
:50:24. > :50:30.that gap, which is largely oil and gas but not entirely, when their
:50:31. > :50:34.policies apply in England as well? I think you just heard from David Bell
:50:35. > :50:39.and others about their disability impact of the downtime and Scott is
:50:40. > :50:43.in gas in Scotland, and also the way these figures are recounted in
:50:44. > :50:46.Scotland. But you're right, we have to drive up the number of companies
:50:47. > :50:50.that export in Scotland. We have also had about some of the
:50:51. > :50:55.challenges in terms of skills, is basic computer skills. We have to do
:50:56. > :50:58.more of those things and get those things right, and also to continue
:50:59. > :51:03.to drive productivity. We have increased it by 74% by last ten
:51:04. > :51:08.years. That's all it takes is up to the level of the UK. We have to
:51:09. > :51:12.start competing by set with France and Germany. A lot of work still
:51:13. > :51:18.today. Some your opponents have been saying this morning, my God, they
:51:19. > :51:24.are celebrating because they are not in reassessing, but there is a much
:51:25. > :51:30.bigger challenge you. Oil and gas... We should point out that we are
:51:31. > :51:34.talking about the economic activity that surrounds the industry of oil
:51:35. > :51:40.and gas. That might never recover. I don't think that is the case. I
:51:41. > :51:45.mean, to the levels it was before. I am not celebrating. These are good,
:51:46. > :51:51.encouraging figures. But we have seen salivating by the opposition
:51:52. > :51:54.parties trying to talk up things before these businesses commit.
:51:55. > :51:57.Businesses out to asset to the back teeth of the Scottish economy being
:51:58. > :52:03.talked down by the Tories and Labour. There is huge interest in
:52:04. > :52:07.tapping into their expertise in Scotland. I was in Kazakhstan and
:52:08. > :52:12.there are more opportunities are you suggesting that oil and gas activity
:52:13. > :52:19.could get back to the level it was at before the collapse? I think
:52:20. > :52:23.there is a huge future for oil and gas. There are some ice expertise in
:52:24. > :52:32.Scotland. I was in Abu Dhabi, and they have a huge amount of... What I
:52:33. > :52:37.find most have 80 Scottish companies when, because they know that there
:52:38. > :52:40.are tenets of markets. They are very switched on to looking at these
:52:41. > :52:43.other markets and we want to encourage that. But that is not
:52:44. > :52:49.showing up in the figures yet? We have seen some improvement, we have
:52:50. > :52:54.seen a 3.4% increase in terms of productivity don't oil and gas, and
:52:55. > :52:57.we are starting to see that. Perhaps attitudes it is companies been very
:52:58. > :53:03.forward looking and looking at overseas markets. Scotland need
:53:04. > :53:08.something to fill an. I remember when SNP first came to power, all
:53:09. > :53:11.the talk was about renewables. I note this creates jobs, because when
:53:12. > :53:19.time bound and things like that, what was meant was that Scotland
:53:20. > :53:22.could develop a new Andy Street, it could be manufacturing, expertise.
:53:23. > :53:26.It was the big thing that was going to drive the Scottish economy. It
:53:27. > :53:32.hasn't really happened, has it? Can you point to any impact? I can point
:53:33. > :53:38.to the impact of the UK Government in the Scottish economy. People will
:53:39. > :53:42.tell you they have had the legs sticking out from underneath them by
:53:43. > :53:46.the UK Government's failure to support carbon capture and also
:53:47. > :53:50.because of the subsidy programme that was there before. I thought
:53:51. > :53:56.that subsidy programme was for onshore? Offshore renewables was
:53:57. > :54:03.going to be the big thing, and in fact there are no huge offshore wind
:54:04. > :54:06.turbine development in England's, but have anything in Scotland. It
:54:07. > :54:09.has timed out to be the opposite of what we were told. There are very
:54:10. > :54:19.exciting developments to beat coming. We have seen carbon capture
:54:20. > :54:22.possibilities that have been delayed or cancelled, the point I'm trying
:54:23. > :54:28.to make is that what we have in Scotland is a Government, if you
:54:29. > :54:32.look at growth and employment, the number of businesses with FDI. Look
:54:33. > :54:36.at what the duty is not doing. Look at the lack of scrutiny for the UK
:54:37. > :54:39.is not doing. When is the last time you had someone from the UK
:54:40. > :54:43.Government and listed you're talking about the economy in Scotland. You
:54:44. > :54:50.should do that. We are getting behind businesses in Scotland.
:54:51. > :54:55.Ministers are held to account over the economy. Do you think that you
:54:56. > :55:04.need to... What you are saying... It is fine? You mentioned encouraging
:55:05. > :55:08.exporters, but you need to take any bold new initiatives? For example,
:55:09. > :55:12.Scottish Labour over the last few days said, why don't we have a ?20
:55:13. > :55:17.billion Scottish investment back. I know there is one already, but
:55:18. > :55:21.nothing like that scale. We have asked a number of times, because
:55:22. > :55:26.they had to get the borrowing consent of the UK Government, that
:55:27. > :55:31.is read the rules work. We asked the Scottish futures trust to do exactly
:55:32. > :55:33.that, in the way that other countries can support
:55:34. > :55:36.infrastructure, takes bets on some really innovative companies and
:55:37. > :55:40.support them at that bold measure. We don't have ?20 million, I wish
:55:41. > :55:47.that dead. We're stuck with the Tories, which the Labour Party is
:55:48. > :55:51.happy to support in this regard. In the meantime, we have to concentrate
:55:52. > :55:56.on doubling the number of FDI staff we have in Europe... Your message to
:55:57. > :56:01.Labour is that you would do the investment back if Labour could find
:56:02. > :56:05.the money? If they supported our cars. I don't figure has been a
:56:06. > :56:11.Labour Government oratorio Government... One UIQ, the other
:56:12. > :56:16.thing that we haven't seen from the Scottish Government the SNP idiot
:56:17. > :56:22.economic plans for independence. All day, the referendum might be kicked
:56:23. > :56:30.into the long grass in the mean time. I view planning soon to come
:56:31. > :56:34.out with something specific? We will come out when they think the time is
:56:35. > :56:38.right. As you have just said, we will not be having a referendum
:56:39. > :56:44.until Brexit is clear. That is the right way to do these things. I
:56:45. > :56:53.didn't see any other sparkling on prior to basic uneven Brexit. We
:56:54. > :57:00.will work on that. We will also provide... When? Before the last
:57:01. > :57:04.referendum. In the meantime, we will get on with their business are
:57:05. > :57:08.supporting businesses in Scotland. But you can't give us a date or even
:57:09. > :57:14.a year when we will see their support? We'll have to see the
:57:15. > :57:15.referendum is. We will give a detailed perspective of what we
:57:16. > :57:18.intend. Thank you. The Momentum movement
:57:19. > :57:20.certainly made an impact in the last general election -
:57:21. > :57:22.helping to push Jeremy Corbyn closer towards the winning line than many
:57:23. > :57:25.had thought possible. But while the group have firmly
:57:26. > :57:27.established themselves on the political map down south,
:57:28. > :57:44.their role here is taken by the Momentum grew out of Jeremy Corbyn's
:57:45. > :57:49.2015 election campaign and it stated aim is to get Labour into
:57:50. > :57:53.Government. It claims to have a campaigning network over 23,000
:57:54. > :57:56.members, and 200,000 supporters. And it is taking some of the credit for
:57:57. > :58:04.Labour's performance in a general election. I manifest offer something
:58:05. > :58:10.very, very different. Like carbon, they are most definitely left of
:58:11. > :58:16.centre, in favour of we disappeared in wealth, pitting the planet before
:58:17. > :58:17.corporate interest, and renationalisation public services.
:58:18. > :58:25.This seems appealing to younger voters, with a slight social media
:58:26. > :58:30.and door-to-door campaign. My name is Elena from the Labour Party.
:58:31. > :58:35.Momentum also want to transform Labour into a more modern party.
:58:36. > :58:40.That has worried some Labour MPs. They feel rules could be changed to
:58:41. > :58:47.see those considered off message face reselection. But they grip us
:58:48. > :58:54.Finder insist they are for all. And the general election campaign, we
:58:55. > :58:58.campaign for a Labour candidates and respective of registered in the past
:58:59. > :59:03.on Jeremy Corbyn. We helped win seats for candidates supported
:59:04. > :59:13.progress just as hard as we helped when teesra candidates who had
:59:14. > :59:17.always supported us. That is the way we are going to carry on. There is
:59:18. > :59:24.no equivalent movement in Scotland. Here the Campaign for Socialism
:59:25. > :59:29.takes that role. They did against Kezia Dugdale for Scottish Labour
:59:30. > :59:40.leader, but Kezia one. leader, but Kezia one.
:59:41. > :59:41.# Oh, Jeremy Corbyn # Can then emulate the success not
:59:42. > :59:42.of the border? Well, earlier I spoke
:59:43. > :59:55.to the chair of Campiagn Let's start with Labour as a
:59:56. > :59:58.movement. Down south, they became to be the biggest mass movement party
:59:59. > :00:04.in Western Europe. There has not been a sunlight up search in the
:00:05. > :00:09.party here. I figure has been an increase in membership. It has not
:00:10. > :00:13.been as high as across England and Wales, but it certainly have seen
:00:14. > :00:18.people get involved. Presumably, you would like to ramp that up? I think
:00:19. > :00:23.there is much more we can do to get people involved in a genuine
:00:24. > :00:30.movement. What needs to happen up here for that to happen? Because the
:00:31. > :00:34.carbon effect in England, arguably, I'm interested in whether you agree,
:00:35. > :00:40.many people are saying that Labour's unexpectedly good result in Scotland
:00:41. > :00:46.was largely to do with the Corbyn effect. I think that is largely
:00:47. > :00:52.true. There was a huge difference in England and Wales, a huge surge down
:00:53. > :00:57.there. There was only maybe two or 3% up here. I think we should have
:00:58. > :01:00.been far more focused on Corbyn and a manifesto that he represents, and
:01:01. > :01:05.they would have seen more games are paid if we had done that. What about
:01:06. > :01:10.the Labour leadership up here? Are you fans of them? They are pretty
:01:11. > :01:16.hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. I don't think there is any secret that Kezia
:01:17. > :01:18.Dugdale voted for John Smith in the last leadership election. I don't
:01:19. > :01:23.necessarily think it's about leadership are pure. It's about the
:01:24. > :01:28.policies and a membership that the one to have. I figure has been
:01:29. > :01:33.lessons learned. There was an e-mail from Kezia Dugdale to the full
:01:34. > :01:42.membership basically saying that we want to campaign on the For The Many
:01:43. > :01:46.manifesto. Whatever the policy lunches is industrial strategy,
:01:47. > :02:00.soggy bobby creating good jobs across the economy... What Labour up
:02:01. > :02:06.you haven't done... There is no Jezza effect in the medicine has
:02:07. > :02:12.been an angling. Kezia Dugdale isn't turning up at Rock festivals and
:02:13. > :02:18.addressing everyone and having centres eyes and people cheering
:02:19. > :02:21.hard. That is a difference. No. But I think Jeremy Corbyn has captured
:02:22. > :02:31.something and represent something. It is not about him, while the ad
:02:32. > :02:33.champ team -- chanting his name. We need something better. A real
:02:34. > :02:40.alternative and a different vision for how this country should be run
:02:41. > :02:43.and organise. Do you take the aim of your talking about as an acceptance
:02:44. > :02:47.from the leadership that they had to change? I can't speak for them, but
:02:48. > :02:51.it certainly an indication that the party wants to get behind the
:02:52. > :02:57.manifesto policies and devising, and sat to build on that, because that
:02:58. > :03:00.is what got us against in the general election. I don't think
:03:01. > :03:05.there is many people dispute that. The upsurge in interest in politics
:03:06. > :03:09.in young people that these with Jeremy Corbyn, in Scotland tended to
:03:10. > :03:13.happen for the SNP. It was the Yes campaign that mobilised thousands of
:03:14. > :03:21.people. The SNP put on 100,000 new members. Do you think Labour...
:03:22. > :03:28.Really, Labour dead lows, but there's anything you can do to when
:03:29. > :03:31.over those people. Yes. I think a quarter are people who voted yes in
:03:32. > :03:36.the referendum voted Labour this time, and I think the reason so many
:03:37. > :03:40.people went to the SNP last year signed, because it was for a better
:03:41. > :03:45.society. They put a campaign for others and for a different country
:03:46. > :03:48.and how great would be better for. I think what they were offering was a
:03:49. > :03:52.dead-end and wouldn't have actually provided they change, and I think
:03:53. > :03:58.what the Labour Party is putting across is actually about genuine
:03:59. > :04:03.change, giving workers more control and a fairer society. If the Prozac,
:04:04. > :04:07.we will begin to when. Why do you think it was the SNP who were able
:04:08. > :04:11.to communicate to young people and not to Labour Party? At that time, I
:04:12. > :04:19.think the better together campaign was about what young people couldn't
:04:20. > :04:24.have, about things that would be different. I think, this time round
:04:25. > :04:28.Labour is now thinking about big ideas, about changing things and
:04:29. > :04:32.about creating for the many, not if you. I think that is a really clear,
:04:33. > :04:40.simple message about what Labour stands for. We didn't have that
:04:41. > :04:45.before. You effectively saying, we think independence is a dead end?
:04:46. > :04:50.Are you also saying basically that it's just not very interesting? We
:04:51. > :04:54.have different things to talk about? I think that is correct. There are
:04:55. > :04:57.people in the Labour Party who supported yes, the majority
:04:58. > :05:03.supported no. I think we can welcome all opinions on this issue. If we
:05:04. > :05:06.want to see real change, we need to talk about the financial system, the
:05:07. > :05:11.economy, taxation, things that whether we like it or not organised
:05:12. > :05:17.at a UK level. With Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, we have a real wave of
:05:18. > :05:21.change. Give me one way you would like the Scottish Labour leadership
:05:22. > :05:26.to change to attempt to get the kind of momentum that Labour in England
:05:27. > :05:32.have seemed to have? I don't think there is one thing. We have already
:05:33. > :05:37.talked about them getting behind the policy, bringing that Morse before,
:05:38. > :05:40.rather than talking about being anti-independence and the SNP.
:05:41. > :05:41.Fizzing across a positive vision is a really good move and I would
:05:42. > :05:48.encourage more of that. Thank you. And time now for a look
:05:49. > :05:54.at the Week Ahead. I'm joined by freelance
:05:55. > :05:56.journalist and columnist And she's alongside former
:05:57. > :05:59.Scottish Conservative MP and former chair of the Scottish Conservatives,
:06:00. > :06:12.Raymond Robertson. are you convinced by Keith Brown's
:06:13. > :06:14.lying on the economy? That was an interesting interview there he
:06:15. > :06:18.struggled to get to grips with what is actually happening in the
:06:19. > :06:22.Scottish economy. He managed to get through almost ten minutes without
:06:23. > :06:26.mentioning the referendum, which is one of the biggest problems, that is
:06:27. > :06:31.causing instability for business. It's difficult to find any evidence.
:06:32. > :06:36.No, it's not. It's causing instability, uncertainty. These are
:06:37. > :06:40.two things businesses don't want or need. He was going to come and
:06:41. > :06:45.invest in Scotland where the constitutional future is all the
:06:46. > :06:50.First Minister is assessing about? They're not interested in helping
:06:51. > :06:55.Scottish business. Lots of people, according to the figures for inward
:06:56. > :07:02.investment. Which are very high. I don't know which figures you are
:07:03. > :07:05.referring to. He is having to double the number of operatives abroad
:07:06. > :07:10.which doesn't really augur well for inward investment, it is having to
:07:11. > :07:14.do that. The basic problem of the Scottish economy is uncertainty and
:07:15. > :07:19.instability. That has been caused by a First Minister he was of Sastre by
:07:20. > :07:23.a referendum. Wanted you make of that? I think it's right that keep
:07:24. > :07:28.down didn't talk about independence when you are asking questions about
:07:29. > :07:33.the economy. He was remaining on topic. The main uncertainty that's
:07:34. > :07:37.been caused throughout the UK is the uncertainty presented by Brexit. We
:07:38. > :07:42.are trying to mitigate against the damage that's going to cause. Brexit
:07:43. > :07:47.is happening across the UK, so can't explain the specifics to Scotland.
:07:48. > :07:52.Ed Kassig when why Scotland is doing better. Is it something the Scottish
:07:53. > :07:57.Government is doing? -- it can't explain why. If the opposite result
:07:58. > :08:01.had come out and the Scottish Government was underperforming
:08:02. > :08:04.compared to the rest of the UK, the Scottish Government would have been
:08:05. > :08:12.blamed unfairly. It's also not very fair to say that it's all down to
:08:13. > :08:16.what they're doing. Connecting our first night in with our second item,
:08:17. > :08:21.is the SNP in danger of being outmanoeuvred by Labour? Labour in
:08:22. > :08:27.Scotland are coming up with these bold new ideas, let's have a ?20
:08:28. > :08:31.billion investment and so on. The SNP is starting to look a bit like
:08:32. > :08:36.the people you have been in power for ten years, and don't really have
:08:37. > :08:39.much new to say. I don't think they're being outmanoeuvred by
:08:40. > :08:41.Scottish Labour, I think we are hearing about the idea of Scottish
:08:42. > :08:46.Labour getting behind Jeremy Corbyn's agenda. But there isn't an
:08:47. > :08:52.individual within Scottish Labour around whom there is any momentum.
:08:53. > :08:57.As long as Labour get the moment, it's bad news for the SNP. I haven't
:08:58. > :09:02.got enough momentum. They didn't manage to become the government in
:09:03. > :09:06.the last General Election. Jeremy Corbyn might talk about being a
:09:07. > :09:10.government in waiting but it is just talk. To you think there is... You
:09:11. > :09:18.go to tell me there is a marvellous future for the Conservative party in
:09:19. > :09:26.Scotland. Absolutely. If you look at the number of seats are vulnerable,
:09:27. > :09:30.it is more to Labour. The arithmetic might look like that, but if you had
:09:31. > :09:37.to ask anyone which party in Scotland has momentum, used that
:09:38. > :09:41.phrase, it would be the Scottish Conservatives. That is obvious.
:09:42. > :09:44.There's no doubt the Jeremy Corbyn has breathed new life into the
:09:45. > :09:48.Labour Party in Scotland, but the question is what happened at the
:09:49. > :09:56.General Election a dead cat bounce, with something more deep and
:09:57. > :10:04.fundamental? Talking of dead cats and bouncing, can Theresa May last
:10:05. > :10:09.very long? As Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative party.
:10:10. > :10:13.She is the Prime Minister and a leader of the Conservative party.
:10:14. > :10:17.Let's see. I don't think anyone knows. She can't be the
:10:18. > :10:23.Conservatives into another election. Absolutely. Let's say you were
:10:24. > :10:31.taking your former role as chair of the Conservative party. You're asked
:10:32. > :10:35.for advice, what would you say? Try and stay in power as long as
:10:36. > :10:40.possible? My advice would be to do what she said to the 1922 committee
:10:41. > :10:43.after the election, but she got the party into this mess and she has to
:10:44. > :10:49.get us out. I think she has to be given time to get as out of the
:10:50. > :10:53.mess. What would you do? I think it's unfair to say she got us into
:10:54. > :10:57.this mess because she was not in -- not in favour of Brexit. She did
:10:58. > :11:02.call the General Election, obviously a tactical error, but in answer to
:11:03. > :11:05.the question of whether she will remain as Prime Minister, the only
:11:06. > :11:07.reason she may continue for longer than expected is because of the
:11:08. > :11:13.clownish nature of the other candidates that seem to be eyeing
:11:14. > :11:20.her job. Do you think what they will do is let her do the tough stuff,
:11:21. > :11:27.exits? David Cameron resigned, he said on his way out of Downing
:11:28. > :11:31.Street, they can do this. She said she got us into this mess, and she
:11:32. > :11:36.did. I think she have to lead us out of it. What happens one or two years
:11:37. > :11:40.down the road, I don't know yet. To think she will take the Conservative
:11:41. > :11:46.party into a second General Election? Candidly, I don't. We are
:11:47. > :11:49.going into the summer, everything is becoming a bit silly season, but we
:11:50. > :11:55.still don't have the faintest idea what Brexit means other than Brexit,
:11:56. > :12:01.or what the UK Government's plan is in terms of what it once... I think
:12:02. > :12:05.the reason there isn't a plan is because they can make up for the
:12:06. > :12:10.plans they want. The you're holding the cards. We have heard that Donald
:12:11. > :12:16.Trump is going to do a very big deal with the UK. None of that can happen
:12:17. > :12:20.until March 2019. All this talk is completely meaningless. We need to
:12:21. > :12:25.wait and see what we are given. We're not clear on what the British
:12:26. > :12:29.government intends to negotiate. It almost doesn't matter. They are not
:12:30. > :12:32.necessarily going to get it. They won't tell us what they want because
:12:33. > :12:36.they will have egg on their face when they don't get it. I was
:12:37. > :12:44.usually encouraged about what President Trump was saying, that
:12:45. > :12:49.Howard next predecessor would be at the front of the queue. And that he
:12:50. > :12:54.was ready to proceed, to do a full copper hands of trade deal with the
:12:55. > :13:02.United Kingdom. -- copper hands of deal. You think it can turn into
:13:03. > :13:07.something that is beneficial? The British people have spoken. I accept
:13:08. > :13:11.the result of the referendum. Are all these discussions, would you go
:13:12. > :13:15.for it staying in the single market with a customs union? Although I
:13:16. > :13:21.voted remain, I think the British people voted to leave the EU and
:13:22. > :13:24.that's what we have to do. Still leave the customs union, single
:13:25. > :13:29.market? I think that's what the British people voted for. You asked
:13:30. > :13:32.the British people if they wanted to stay in the customs union, most
:13:33. > :13:35.would say what is the customs union? The campaign did mean when
:13:36. > :13:39.permission about what I was voting for. Obviously we have to leave
:13:40. > :13:45.because that was the vote, but it would be wrong to conclude from that
:13:46. > :13:46.referendum on what was going through anyone's heads when they cast the
:13:47. > :13:47.votes. I'll be back at the
:13:48. > :13:52.same time next week.