:00:38. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.With Cabinet divisions over Brexit, spending and leadership spilling
:00:45. > :00:46.onto the front pages, we'll be talking to international
:00:47. > :00:48.trade secretary Liam Fox about Britain's future
:00:49. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's been to Brussels to set out
:00:57. > :00:59.Labour's vision for Brexit - but with the party suffering its own
:01:00. > :01:01.divisions on Europe, are they being entirely clear
:01:02. > :01:05.And as Ukip searches for another leader, will taking an even more
:01:06. > :01:07.hard-line stance on Islam make the party relevant again,
:01:08. > :01:16.If Ukip goes down the route of being a party that is anti
:01:17. > :01:24.the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished.
:01:25. > :01:28.In London - once a year you can visit your local council
:01:29. > :01:31.The SNP call the Brexit Bill, "a naked power grab."
:01:32. > :01:33.I'll be asking the Scottish Government
:01:34. > :01:45.and the British Government if they're in a mood to compromise.
:01:46. > :01:48.Yes, all of that to come, and I'm joined for all of it
:01:49. > :01:50.by three journalists whose every word is as closely followed
:01:51. > :01:53.And much like the Liberal Democrat leadership contest, they've
:01:54. > :01:58.won their place on the panel because no-one else wanted the job.
:01:59. > :02:08.It's Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:09. > :02:11.First today, for a supposedly private gathering, the meeting
:02:12. > :02:13.of the Cabinet on Tuesday has generated rather a lot of headlines,
:02:14. > :02:15.most of them featuring Chancellor Philip Hammond.
:02:16. > :02:20.Yesterday there were disputed claims in the Sun over what he may or may
:02:21. > :02:23.not have said about women driving trains, and today the Sunday Times
:02:24. > :02:28.says colleagues picked him up for describing public sector workers
:02:29. > :02:30.as overpaid, although some dispute that version of events.
:02:31. > :02:33.Well, Mr Hammond was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning,
:02:34. > :02:35.and he took the unusual step of suggesting that the source
:02:36. > :02:41.of the stories may be people unhappy at his position over Brexit.
:02:42. > :02:45.If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated by people
:02:46. > :02:47.who are not happy with the agenda that I have,
:02:48. > :02:56.tried to advance of ensuring that we achieve a Brexit
:02:57. > :03:00.which is focused on protecting our economy, protecting
:03:01. > :03:03.our jobs, and making sure we can have continued rising living
:03:04. > :03:16.So what do you make of that, Isabel? The Chancellor thinks he's being
:03:17. > :03:21.undermined by Cabinet colleagues who don't trust him on Brexit. That's
:03:22. > :03:25.quite remarkable to say that in public. I also think it's completely
:03:26. > :03:32.true. That's the least controversial true. That's the least controversial
:03:33. > :03:35.part of it! The briefing is his position on Brexit and also
:03:36. > :03:41.frustration on his position over public sector pay then it is over
:03:42. > :03:46.any kind of leadership manoeuvrings. We saw on the Andrew Marr Show that
:03:47. > :03:50.he was doubling down on the issue of public sector pay rises. He didn't
:03:51. > :03:56.categorically deny using the words of overpaid, in fact he reiterated
:03:57. > :04:00.the fact he sees them as whether they are overpaid or not so I
:04:01. > :04:03.believe he did use that phrase but clearly he's got the tone wrong and
:04:04. > :04:11.I don't think he's done himself any favours. He's a pretty wealthy man
:04:12. > :04:17.himself, multimillionaire. He must have some kind of political deafness
:04:18. > :04:24.if he thinks it's OK for someone in his position to say, in a number of
:04:25. > :04:28.cases, lowly paid public sector workers are overpaid? I think he is
:04:29. > :04:35.politically deaf, and not emotionally intelligent. He has a
:04:36. > :04:44.great head for figures but very poor at expressing himself. It was a
:04:45. > :04:58.crass remark over women train drivers. He may be in the right
:04:59. > :05:01.place on some arguments, he's just extremely poor at expressing and
:05:02. > :05:05.that's what gives his opponents the chance to rip his head off. He
:05:06. > :05:11.should have worked out by now that it is clear whatever... Because of
:05:12. > :05:15.the dim munition of Mrs May's authority that whatever you see in
:05:16. > :05:20.the Cabinet now is likely to become public in some shape or form. I
:05:21. > :05:25.think this is the profound lesson of the story, that Cabinet discussion
:05:26. > :05:30.is almost impossible now, and Hammond will go away this summer
:05:31. > :05:34.thinking I can't engage in a proper debate in Cabinet because they will
:05:35. > :05:39.leak it. It sounds as if they were having quite a grown-up conversation
:05:40. > :05:42.about public sector pay with a spending department ministers
:05:43. > :05:46.putting the case for breaking the cup and Hammond saying from the
:05:47. > :05:52.Treasury perspective this is what's happening. Which is what normally
:05:53. > :05:56.happens in Cabinet. He would hope so, not any more. He won't be able
:05:57. > :06:00.to speak his mind in Cabinet because he knows it will be leaked and that
:06:01. > :06:03.is another sign of fragility of this Government, when you cannot have a
:06:04. > :06:07.grown-up discussion about public sector pay even in Cabinet, and that
:06:08. > :06:12.means Cabinet discussion which is urgently needed on Brexit and the
:06:13. > :06:18.rest of it cannot happen in an open way because leaking is happening.
:06:19. > :06:22.Mrs May is not exactly top of the Pops with her own party at the
:06:23. > :06:28.moment but doesn't help her in the fact that her Chancellor is even
:06:29. > :06:32.less top of the Pops? The key thing is that backbenchers don't want a
:06:33. > :06:36.leadership contest at the moment. There are a number of Cabinet
:06:37. > :06:40.ministers or more senior figures who have been around longer who may feel
:06:41. > :06:44.this is their last chance of the leadership and they are urgently
:06:45. > :06:51.wanting it happen now. Backbenchers don't want it, I don't think it will
:06:52. > :07:00.happen. Will it happen? I don't think it will. There are egos
:07:01. > :07:03.clashing in the Cabinet and also many who just want things to stay
:07:04. > :07:06.the way they are, so they will. We will talk more about this leadership
:07:07. > :07:07.matter later in the programme, but let's move on.
:07:08. > :07:09.This week the government passed another Brexit milestone
:07:10. > :07:11.when in introduced the Repeal Bill to the Commons.
:07:12. > :07:13.It will incorporate all EU law into the UK's domestic
:07:14. > :07:17.And although a vote on the Bill isn't due until the autumn,
:07:18. > :07:20.the government still has plenty on its plate when it
:07:21. > :07:23.Brexit secretary David Davis and the EU's negotiator
:07:24. > :07:25.Michel Barnier will sit down for another helping
:07:26. > :07:27.of Brexit negotiations in Brussels this week.
:07:28. > :07:30.Progress now needs to be made on some big questions.
:07:31. > :07:32.They include: the rights of EU citizens living here,
:07:33. > :07:39.How to maintain an open border between Northern Ireland
:07:40. > :07:44.And the size of the financial settlement or so-called divorce bill
:07:45. > :07:51.Previous estimates have included a figure of
:07:52. > :07:57.The British government has put no figure on it, simply saying it
:07:58. > :08:03.This week, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said the EU
:08:04. > :08:06.could "go whistle" if it was expecting an extortionate fee
:08:07. > :08:18.Brussels wants this set of negotiations focusing
:08:19. > :08:22.on the principles of separation to be done by the end of the year.
:08:23. > :08:24.They can then turn to the main event, the future trading
:08:25. > :08:26.relationship between the UK and the EU.
:08:27. > :08:29.While the UK remains a member of the EU customs union, it cannot
:08:30. > :08:33.But it can hold advanced discussions with other countries.
:08:34. > :08:36.This week, Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said his country
:08:37. > :08:41.was very keen for a deal as quickly as possible.
:08:42. > :08:44.And at the G20 summit, Donald Trump said he wanted to sign a very
:08:45. > :08:50.powerful UK-US trade deal very quickly.
:08:51. > :08:52.But as trade deals normally take years to negotiate,
:08:53. > :08:55.it is unclear when the first ones will be ready for post-Brexit
:08:56. > :09:00.So there will be plenty for both sides to digest,
:09:01. > :09:09.as negotiations continue over the summer.
:09:10. > :09:10.I'm joined by the International Trade
:09:11. > :09:22.Your brief is to agree new free trade deals but you cannot sign any
:09:23. > :09:28.until Brexit is done, can you even begin proper negotiations this side
:09:29. > :09:32.of Brexit or is that illegal too? We cannot negotiate and conclude a
:09:33. > :09:38.trade agreement but we can scope them out. We can get our preparatory
:09:39. > :09:42.work done. We have got ten working groups established across the world
:09:43. > :09:47.with countries from Korea to the United States to Australia. I know
:09:48. > :09:52.scoping the out is fine, you can talk about trade but you cannot
:09:53. > :09:56.begin formal trade negotiations until after Brexit. No, but we have
:09:57. > :10:02.trade working agreements. Free trade agreements are not the only thing
:10:03. > :10:07.that are in the mix as it were, they are what people think about but we
:10:08. > :10:10.also have mutual recognition agreements where we can reduce some
:10:11. > :10:16.of the barriers to trade, the technical barriers, in that process.
:10:17. > :10:20.We have a number of other things going on. We have got to get our
:10:21. > :10:26.trading schedules in Switzerland and Geneva and the World Trade
:10:27. > :10:29.Organisation organised. We then have 40 EU free trade agreements and we
:10:30. > :10:34.have to get them ready because if we were not to negotiate those and be
:10:35. > :10:38.ready on the first day of Brexit, there would be huge market
:10:39. > :10:45.disruption. Although you can clearly do a lot of technical work and you
:10:46. > :10:51.can talk till the cows come home, there will be no free trade deals on
:10:52. > :10:56.the shelf ready to sign come March 2019 when we are leaving the EU,
:10:57. > :11:04.that's correct isn't it? Technically there will be new ones... There will
:11:05. > :11:09.be no free trade deals ready to say right, we are out, here is a deal I
:11:10. > :11:13.have baked earlier. Not right away because we are not permitted to do
:11:14. > :11:17.that as part of our membership of the European Union and one of the
:11:18. > :11:21.things I want to get is greater freedom to be able to negotiate on
:11:22. > :11:26.behalf of the UK. That's not possible when you are inside the
:11:27. > :11:32.customs union. There's much talk of a transition after 2019. You told
:11:33. > :11:37.Bloomberg you didn't mind a few months, the Chancellor this morning
:11:38. > :11:41.said it would be a couple of years. What is it? The key thing is why
:11:42. > :11:45.would you have a transitional arrangements, how long would it be
:11:46. > :11:50.and what would the conditions be. For me first we have to leave the
:11:51. > :11:54.European Union in March 2019 so there can be no case of extending EU
:11:55. > :12:01.membership. At that point as a third country we can have a transition
:12:02. > :12:04.agreement which keeps as little disruption as possible but it has to
:12:05. > :12:10.have an end date. You said a few months, the Chancellor said a few
:12:11. > :12:13.years, why the difference? As the Chancellor said, it is more a
:12:14. > :12:19.technical argument, because for example how do we get new border
:12:20. > :12:24.equipment in place, how do we get the arrangements for immigration put
:12:25. > :12:28.in place, but for me, you know, I've waited a long time and campaigned
:12:29. > :12:34.long time to leave the European Union. As long as we leave in March
:12:35. > :12:38.2019 I'm happy, as long as we have a time-limited transitional period to
:12:39. > :12:44.make it work for business. The Chancellor doesn't deny the
:12:45. > :12:47.transition could take up four years. The Brexit Secretary David Davis
:12:48. > :12:52.says it could be a maximum of three years, you are talking months.
:12:53. > :12:58.Shouldn't you sort this out around the Cabinet table instead of all
:12:59. > :13:03.three of you sending mixed messages? We are dependent on for example what
:13:04. > :13:07.HMRC Tal us, how investment is going. It's also a question of
:13:08. > :13:11.negotiating with our European partners. We know what's involved,
:13:12. > :13:17.why are you sending out these mixed messages? I don't have a problem
:13:18. > :13:22.with the transition period as long as it is time-limited. It is not
:13:23. > :13:27.just the time, it is the conditions. I want in the transitional period to
:13:28. > :13:32.be able to negotiate agreements at that point. We cannot have a putting
:13:33. > :13:36.off over the freedom to negotiate trade agreements. At the moment is
:13:37. > :13:42.it clear you would be able to sign any free trade deals during a
:13:43. > :13:50.transition period? No, that's to be negotiated. So if Mr Hammond or Mr
:13:51. > :13:57.Davies is right, up to three or four years, it could be 2021 before you
:13:58. > :14:00.get to sign a free trade deal. We don't now how long any would take to
:14:01. > :14:07.negotiate. They don't happen overnight. Would you even be able to
:14:08. > :14:12.negotiate during a transition period? I would hope so, that is one
:14:13. > :14:15.of the conditions we might set. It is certainly something I would want
:14:16. > :14:20.to see because otherwise it makes it much more difficult to take
:14:21. > :14:24.advantage of the opportunities that Brexit itself would produce. Your
:14:25. > :14:27.ink will run dry before you get to sign one of these agreements. We
:14:28. > :14:35.have a huge amount to do and it's not just at the free trade agreement
:14:36. > :14:39.level. We have for example what we get at the World Trade Organisation
:14:40. > :14:45.because the real game for the UK is to get a global liberalisation in
:14:46. > :14:51.the services sector -- the real gain. And I want to come onto that
:14:52. > :14:55.in a minute but before do, are you group of the Cabinet ministers that
:14:56. > :15:00.seems to regularly be briefing against Philip Hammond? No, I
:15:01. > :15:10.deplore leaks from the Cabinet, I think my colleagues should be quiet,
:15:11. > :15:15.stick to their duties, and I expect discipline to be effective. The only
:15:16. > :15:23.people smiling that this will be people in Berlin and Paris. Why are
:15:24. > :15:28.people doing it? The need to have less prosecco. They don't trust
:15:29. > :15:33.Philip Hammond, do they? I don't think that is true. I read in the
:15:34. > :15:38.press we have very different views, in fact our views are very similar
:15:39. > :15:39.on things like transition. I don't know where it is coming from but I
:15:40. > :15:50.think it should stop. But it is happening? It is happening
:15:51. > :15:54.and I think it undermines the position of the government. We do
:15:55. > :15:58.not need an interim leader or an alternative leader. We have a very
:15:59. > :16:04.good competent leader in Theresa May. But he thinks it is being done
:16:05. > :16:09.by fellow Brexiteers? I do not know who is doing it and they should
:16:10. > :16:15.stop. Let's come back to the tariff free trade. There is much talk about
:16:16. > :16:20.that. The Chancellor says much of our trade with the world is in
:16:21. > :16:24.services and free trade deals won't make any particular difference. Do
:16:25. > :16:28.you agree with him? They can make a difference. It has been estimated
:16:29. > :16:33.with the OECD that free trade deals with the United States could add ?42
:16:34. > :16:41.billion to our bilateral trade by 2030. There is a game to be made. In
:16:42. > :16:45.an economy like the UK which is 80% services, what we would benefit from
:16:46. > :16:50.is a range of global liberalisation. One example is data. We have an
:16:51. > :16:54.economy where we talk about freedom of movement of goods and services,
:16:55. > :16:58.but you also have to have the freedom of movement of data. One
:16:59. > :17:05.thing I would like the UK to lead on is to look to a global agreement on
:17:06. > :17:11.that. But the talks have come to an end. There is no great global
:17:12. > :17:16.movement. That is not true. We have just had a multilateral agreement,
:17:17. > :17:19.the trade facilitation was signed this year which seeks to diminish
:17:20. > :17:25.friction at customs around the world and will add 70 billion to the
:17:26. > :17:29.economy. But it leaves plenty of nontariff barriers in place. The
:17:30. > :17:33.moment you start to talk about these complicated rules and regulations
:17:34. > :17:39.that hinder services, it does not make free trade deals impossible, it
:17:40. > :17:44.makes them much more on placated and prolonged to do. Correct? You need
:17:45. > :17:50.to look at what is happening in the global economy. According to the
:17:51. > :17:56.OECD, in 2012, the G7 and G20 countries were operating about 300
:17:57. > :18:00.nontariff barriers. By the end of 2015, they were operating nearly
:18:01. > :18:04.three times that number. The silting up of growth and global trade is
:18:05. > :18:08.being done by the global economy. We need to be looking at how we can
:18:09. > :18:12.remove some of those barriers, because otherwise our prosperity
:18:13. > :18:19.becomes limited. Is it still your view that no deal would be better
:18:20. > :18:21.than a bad deal? Anyone who goes into that negotiation without that
:18:22. > :18:26.than a bad deal? Anyone who goes is foolish. We will not accept any
:18:27. > :18:30.deal they will give us. That is the problem David Cameron had before the
:18:31. > :18:34.referendum. I think our partners believed we would accept a bad deal
:18:35. > :18:41.rather than none. But Philip Hammond has given the game away. He said no
:18:42. > :18:45.deal would be a very, very bad outcome. The Europeans know that we
:18:46. > :18:50.have realised no deal would be a very bad outcome. Is he right? I
:18:51. > :18:56.think you can argue on what the outcome would be. It is very
:18:57. > :18:59.important as a negotiating tool, and the Prime Minister is 100% right.
:19:00. > :19:03.Those we are negotiating with, need to believe that we would walk away
:19:04. > :19:07.rather than accept a bad deal. But if you're going to walk away you did
:19:08. > :19:23.not say the consequences would be very, very bad. You do not agree
:19:24. > :19:28.with the key is what is our negotiating position? You simply do
:19:29. > :19:32.not hand it away. So he is wrong? He says very, very bad. We have to
:19:33. > :19:35.accept we have a right to walk away and those we are negotiating with
:19:36. > :19:39.have to understand that. No businessman would go into a deal and
:19:40. > :19:44.say whatever the outcome, we will accept it. And no business would go
:19:45. > :19:49.into a major negotiation with six different voices but your government
:19:50. > :19:56.is. David Davis speaks for the government not the Sunday
:19:57. > :19:59.newspapers. Not Philip Hammond. Philip Hammond was very clear this
:20:00. > :20:07.morning on the issue of transition. We are leaving the single the --
:20:08. > :20:12.market, we are leaving the customs union. Let me just quote to some
:20:13. > :20:18.other issues. It would be good to get some clarity. Is there a
:20:19. > :20:22.contingency plan for no deal? Yes, government departments are all
:20:23. > :20:26.working for their contingency plans for what would happen if we got to
:20:27. > :20:32.the end of negotiation with no deal. Why did the Foreign Secretary say
:20:33. > :20:36.there was no plan for no deal. There are contingency plans across
:20:37. > :20:42.Whitehall. Is he wrong or out of the loop? As dead no. There are
:20:43. > :20:46.contingency plans and my department and other departments have
:20:47. > :20:51.specifically been tasked... He said it this week. Well, that is not
:20:52. > :20:56.correct. We would be foolish not to have such contingency plans. I
:20:57. > :21:00.understand the argument, you need to bring the Foreign Secretary in. He
:21:01. > :21:06.is only the Foreign Secretary that you would need to bring him in, I
:21:07. > :21:12.would have thought. You want is full deal with the EU as possible. Would
:21:13. > :21:21.you be prepared to pay for that kind of open access? It depends what you
:21:22. > :21:26.mean by pay. We have to start with where we are with the European Union
:21:27. > :21:32.at the moment. We already have a tariff free arrangement. I know what
:21:33. > :21:36.we already have. The only reason why we would not continue with that is
:21:37. > :21:42.if the politicians on the other side of the channel wanted to put
:21:43. > :21:48.politics before economics. What they said they want an annual fee? If
:21:49. > :21:51.they are talking about Britain continuing to pay for those
:21:52. > :21:57.international arrangements... I am not talking about that and I think
:21:58. > :22:00.you know I am not. If we get a full access trade deal, that they say you
:22:01. > :22:06.have to pay an annual fee for this full access, should we pay it? I
:22:07. > :22:10.would not want to make a public position while our negotiations are
:22:11. > :22:15.coming on but I think you would find it difficult to square with WTO law.
:22:16. > :22:21.Has there ever been a free trade deal where you pay the other side
:22:22. > :22:26.for access? Not that I am aware of. Nor me. It would be unprecedented.
:22:27. > :22:30.Are you ruling it out? I am not going to say anything. I see say we
:22:31. > :22:31.should not have a number of different cabinet voices ahead of
:22:32. > :22:56.our negotiations so I will not do that. We will have a
:22:57. > :22:59.negotiation. We will try and get as free deal as possible. Let me tell
:23:00. > :23:01.you why it is important. I know why it is important. I have another
:23:02. > :23:04.question. You said the EU has trade deals with a number of other
:23:05. > :23:07.countries at the moment of which we are part of, South Korea and Canada
:23:08. > :23:10.are two examples. Will they continue to trade with us on the existing
:23:11. > :23:12.basis, or will we have to do new deals or change these deals after
:23:13. > :23:17.Brexit? We are negotiating with his third countries so we have something
:23:18. > :23:22.so that deals are translated into UK law so there is no disruption to
:23:23. > :23:28.trade. It is not clear. It is break clear. The Canada deal has not yet
:23:29. > :23:32.been ratified by the European Union. So we do not know if we can carry on
:23:33. > :23:38.trading with those countries which the EU has a free trade deal with on
:23:39. > :23:45.the same basis. We have not spoken to a single country and we have
:23:46. > :23:50.working groups with Switzerland and career which make up 82% by value.
:23:51. > :23:55.Not a single one of those has indicated they did not want to carry
:23:56. > :23:59.out this transitional adoption. In the case of Canada, in the case of
:24:00. > :24:04.Singapore, where that agreement has not yet been reached by the EU, we
:24:05. > :24:11.will have to think then about a Plan B and how we go into a bilateral
:24:12. > :24:17.agreement. The EU now regards as may as a lame duck leader. It is true in
:24:18. > :24:22.Brussels, Berlin and Paris -- the EU now regards Mrs May as a lame duck
:24:23. > :24:27.leader. There is a hung parliament. Labour will not save your bacon on
:24:28. > :24:34.Brexit. They want a quick election and they will vote to bring that
:24:35. > :24:40.about. This election result has severely undermined Britain's
:24:41. > :24:43.negotiating position. If you are looking at European governments,
:24:44. > :24:47.they are looking at dealing with minority governments all the time.
:24:48. > :24:51.They are dealing with coalitions formal and informal. The key is we
:24:52. > :24:55.have something stronger than that. We have the will of the British
:24:56. > :24:59.people behind us clearly expressed in the referendum that we are going
:25:00. > :25:03.to leave the European Union, whatever Tony Blair or anyone else
:25:04. > :25:07.says. We will leave in March 20 19. Now the job of the government is to
:25:08. > :25:11.get the best deal and that is best done by my colleagues getting on
:25:12. > :25:15.with their departmental work, not involving themselves in things they
:25:16. > :25:18.do not need to be involved in, giving our backbenchers the
:25:19. > :25:23.reassurance that we have a united Cabinet. Liam Fox, thank you.
:25:24. > :25:26.Jeremy Corbyn went to Brussels this week to meet with the EU's
:25:27. > :25:27.chief Brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier.
:25:28. > :25:29.We're told Mr Corbyn wanted to set out Labour's
:25:30. > :25:33.But on some of the big questions - like Britain's relationship
:25:34. > :25:35.with the single market and the customs union -
:25:36. > :25:38.Here's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell speaking earlier.
:25:39. > :25:41.I believe we have to try and maintain the benefits
:25:42. > :25:43.of the customs union, and that's one of the issues
:25:44. > :25:47.Does it mean staying inside or leaving?
:25:48. > :25:49.Keep all the options open, keep all the options...
:25:50. > :25:51.Under Labour we could stay inside the customs union?
:25:52. > :25:54.We are concentrating on the objectives rather
:25:55. > :25:57.than the structures and that seems to have a resonance
:25:58. > :26:00.I'm joined now by the Shadow Business Secretary
:26:01. > :26:04.Rebecca Long-Bailey, she's in our Salford studio.
:26:05. > :26:11.Good morning to you. Good morning. If there is a snap general election
:26:12. > :26:15.it could well be Labour negotiating Brexit, so let's try and get some
:26:16. > :26:19.answers to some fundamental questions. Is Labour in favour of
:26:20. > :26:23.Britain remaining a member of the single market? What we have said it
:26:24. > :26:29.want to retain the benefits of the single market and the customs union.
:26:30. > :26:32.We have to be flexible in our approach, we appreciate that. The
:26:33. > :26:33.end goal is maintaining the current benefits we have because we are
:26:34. > :26:55.standing on the edge of a cliff, quite frankly, on
:26:56. > :26:57.that matter. But you would concentrate on remaining a member of
:26:58. > :27:00.the single market? The machinery we use to maintain those benefits is
:27:01. > :27:03.open to negotiation. We have got to respect the result of the referendum
:27:04. > :27:05.and the will of the people, in terms of having greater control over our
:27:06. > :27:07.laws and the border. If we could negotiate staying in the single
:27:08. > :27:10.market would be fantastic but whether it is likely have to be
:27:11. > :27:13.seen. We are looking at all the options on the table and getting
:27:14. > :27:19.access to the single market is one of those. Everybody wants access, I
:27:20. > :27:23.am talking about membership. It is still not clear whether you would
:27:24. > :27:26.negotiate to remain as a member of the single market, with all the
:27:27. > :27:32.consequences of free movement and the European Court that would follow
:27:33. > :27:36.from that. What is your position? We want to retain the current benefits
:27:37. > :27:40.we have is a member of the single market, but we appreciate there will
:27:41. > :27:44.be free movement and we will lose control over our laws. That was one
:27:45. > :27:49.of the key positions that were set out in the referendum and people
:27:50. > :27:53.were extremely concerned about that. That has to be negotiated. If we
:27:54. > :27:58.could negotiate membership of the single market while dealing with the
:27:59. > :28:03.other issues, that would be great. I think that would be unlikely. We
:28:04. > :28:09.have to look at a more flexible approach while not being a member.
:28:10. > :28:15.Is Labour in favour of remaining a member of the customs union? Again,
:28:16. > :28:21.the position is similar. We want to retain the benefits we have in the
:28:22. > :28:24.customs union. We want to have our cake and eat it, as do most parties
:28:25. > :28:29.in Westminster. So you and Boris Johnson or on the same wavelength?
:28:30. > :28:36.We need to be flexible, not cut our nose off despite our face. I am
:28:37. > :28:44.asking for your position. Would you be clear to be prepared to sacrifice
:28:45. > :28:50.not being able to do free trade deals, as the price for remaining in
:28:51. > :28:54.the customs union? We have to be extremely flexible. We should be
:28:55. > :29:01.able to carry out and negotiate our free trade deals. You cannot do that
:29:02. > :29:05.in the customs union? So are you in or out? That is why it is a point
:29:06. > :29:09.for negotiation, Andrew. We want to retain the benefits of the customs
:29:10. > :29:15.union will negotiating trade deals as we see fit. That will form part
:29:16. > :29:19.of the negotiations themselves. We cannot cut our nose despite our face
:29:20. > :29:22.without coming out of the customs union without any transitional
:29:23. > :29:27.arrangements whatsoever and send businesses over the cliff. Since you
:29:28. > :29:30.do want to keep your cake and eat it. You want to stay in the single
:29:31. > :29:40.market but not have the obligations that go with it, stay the single
:29:41. > :29:45.union but not do -- stay in the single market but do your own trade
:29:46. > :29:52.deals. The opposition is untenable. That is the point of the
:29:53. > :29:57.negotiations... To be untenable? Not to be untenable. We have
:29:58. > :30:01.negotiations. The machinery we have whether it is through outside
:30:02. > :30:04.agreements or whether it is about a negotiated form of an amended
:30:05. > :30:10.settlement, that is a moot point frankly. We need to make sure we
:30:11. > :30:15.have the same benefits. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,
:30:16. > :30:18.says people would interpret remaining in the single market is
:30:19. > :30:22.not respecting the referendum but you say it is an option to keep
:30:23. > :30:26.open, who is right? I think he is right in what he said. It is
:30:27. > :30:29.automatically assumed that once you leave the EU you leave the single
:30:30. > :30:34.market and that is generally the case. I would be surprised that we
:30:35. > :30:38.would be able to negotiate any of the concessions that we want to make
:30:39. > :30:41.as remaining part of the single market as a member. I am not saying
:30:42. > :30:46.it is completely off the table because stranger things have
:30:47. > :30:51.happened, but what we need to focus on is less on the machinery and more
:30:52. > :30:53.on the outcome. We need to make sure we retain the benefits and we
:30:54. > :30:59.negotiate some form of agreement to deal with that.
:31:00. > :31:06.But why would you keep an option open that would not respect the
:31:07. > :31:11.result of the referendum? People assume that once you leave the EU
:31:12. > :31:15.you leave the single market. That could be negotiated, but it's
:31:16. > :31:19.extremely unlikely. I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage because
:31:20. > :31:24.stranger things have happened and this process so far has been
:31:25. > :31:28.extremely chaotic. But you would have to decide your negotiating
:31:29. > :31:36.position. Saying we don't rule anything out is not a negotiating
:31:37. > :31:39.position. We are clear on our negotiating position, we want to
:31:40. > :31:45.retain the benefits we currently have as part of the customs union
:31:46. > :31:50.and the single market, whether that is inside or outside is a moot
:31:51. > :31:59.point. Rex it means Brexit, we are clear on that. -- Brexit means
:32:00. > :32:03.Brexit. How can it, if you want to stay inside the single market and
:32:04. > :32:08.Customs union, and you said access would entail accepting some element
:32:09. > :32:13.of free movement. That's what you said but your manifesto was
:32:14. > :32:18.categorical - free movement would end after Brexit, which is currently
:32:19. > :32:23.Labour policy? The manifesto was clear free movement would end. The
:32:24. > :32:28.point I was making at the time is there are some areas which are
:32:29. > :32:36.extremely complex, for example the free movement of scientists. There
:32:37. > :32:39.is an extreme state of concern regarding that, so the Government
:32:40. > :32:44.has to look at things like that. There might have to be concession is
:32:45. > :32:48.made in certain areas like that in order to get an associative
:32:49. > :32:52.membership for example but the clear position overall is that free
:32:53. > :32:56.movement would end and we are in favour of reasonable and managed
:32:57. > :33:00.migration. We are also not in favour of the current undercutting of wages
:33:01. > :33:04.for example through the Swedish denigration and we want to see that
:33:05. > :33:08.end immediately because we don't think it is right company cancels
:33:09. > :33:15.labour overseas and undercut British employees. Let me finish on another
:33:16. > :33:19.topic. John McDonnell again, the Shadow Chancellor, said this morning
:33:20. > :33:27.the victims of Grenfell Tower were victims of social murder. What is
:33:28. > :33:33.social murder? I haven't spoken to John about that but what happened in
:33:34. > :33:39.Grenfell was absolutely horrific. But were they victims of social
:33:40. > :33:45.murder? I haven't spoken to John to understand the term but in my
:33:46. > :33:50.constituency we have a large number of tower blocks that have the same
:33:51. > :33:54.cladding on and people are living in fear. Following the Lakanal House
:33:55. > :33:59.fire, the coroner made recommendations the Government
:34:00. > :34:05.should be installing sprinklers in all housing over 30 metres high and
:34:06. > :34:10.they haven't done that. I call on than to do that immediately whilst
:34:11. > :34:15.also making sure the funding is available to carry out necessary
:34:16. > :34:25.remedial works. One other issue has come light... My question is
:34:26. > :34:30.important... When John McDonnell says that the people in Grenfell
:34:31. > :34:35.Tower were murdered, murdered by political decisions, is he right? I
:34:36. > :34:44.go back to the point I made earlier. I haven't discussed it with John...
:34:45. > :34:53.Two weeks ago. The Government should have acted on recommendations. Were
:34:54. > :34:58.they murdered? They should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:34:59. > :35:03.sprinklers and they didn't. There was incompetence is no question,
:35:04. > :35:08.dereliction of duty, some terrible decisions made that resulted in that
:35:09. > :35:14.appalling event that we saw but does that amount to murder? It is a
:35:15. > :35:19.simple question. You could look at it case of manslaughter but the fact
:35:20. > :35:23.is people lost their lives through a failure to conduct adequately a duty
:35:24. > :35:28.of care. People would assume that is murder if you like, if it was taken
:35:29. > :35:34.through the courts, and could be classified as corporate
:35:35. > :35:39.manslaughter. It's not murder? We are going round in circles here. The
:35:40. > :35:43.point is the Government should have acted on recommendations to retrofit
:35:44. > :35:46.sprinklers years ago and should have looked at amending building
:35:47. > :35:51.regulations instead of kicking the issue into the long grass time and
:35:52. > :35:56.time again. People where I live are living in extreme fear, and we want
:35:57. > :36:00.the Government to take action immediately. Rebecca Long-Bailey
:36:01. > :36:02.from Salford, thank you for joining us.
:36:03. > :36:06.You may not have noticed but Ukip - the party that once promised
:36:07. > :36:08.and arguably delivered a political earthquake - is having
:36:09. > :36:12.The last leader, Paul Nuttall, stood down after the party saw its vote
:36:13. > :36:17.is one anti-Islam candidate threatening to split what's
:36:18. > :36:35.Forget the warm prosecco, if there is any plotting going on in Ukip
:36:36. > :36:38.about who should be in charge, it would be going on over a pint. And
:36:39. > :36:45.there is plotting. understands Ukip's ruling body could
:36:46. > :36:50.ban one of the candidates from standing, and that is not going to
:36:51. > :36:55.go down terribly well. Anne Marie Waters, a former Labour activist,
:36:56. > :37:00.wants to be the next leader. She believes Ukip needs to talk more
:37:01. > :37:04.about Islam, a religion she has called evil. She says there is
:37:05. > :37:08.growing support for her views including among the hundreds of new
:37:09. > :37:14.members who have joined Ukip in recent weeks. Are you anti-Islam? I
:37:15. > :37:21.don't like the religion, no, and a lot of people get confused on Islam
:37:22. > :37:25.and all Muslims. The religion, the Scriptures and how it is practised
:37:26. > :37:28.in most of the world I find quite frankly abhorrent. There are
:37:29. > :37:36.millions of people in this country who think as I do. They don't
:37:37. > :37:41.want... And the real extreme right could rise if people are not allowed
:37:42. > :37:45.to talk about this. Nigel Farage has already said he doesn't want to be
:37:46. > :37:51.the leader again, but he still has a clear view of what Ukip 's macro
:37:52. > :37:57.future should and should not hold. Ukip goes down the route of being a
:37:58. > :38:03.party that is anti the religion of Islam, frankly it's finished. I
:38:04. > :38:07.don't think there is any public appetite for that but it is timing
:38:08. > :38:11.and the party would be finished. If there are some within Ukip who say
:38:12. > :38:12.the party had already moved to the right at the last election with its
:38:13. > :38:20.integration agenda. Banning
:38:21. > :38:21.the burka and physically checking children for female
:38:22. > :38:22.genital mutilation. If we don't really do something
:38:23. > :38:25.about FGM now, we never will. Anne Marie Waters wants to go
:38:26. > :38:27.further but also suspects The party chairman says
:38:28. > :38:33.there will be due process according to Ukip's constitution,
:38:34. > :38:53.including the screening But like the old boss,
:38:54. > :38:55.he doesn't think Ukip should become What we're going through now
:38:56. > :38:58.is a process where people can I'm talking about the process
:38:59. > :39:02.we have, which I think is robust enough to protect the party,
:39:03. > :39:05.its history, and protect its future. We have always been
:39:06. > :39:07.about being for something, we are not against something,
:39:08. > :39:10.and hopefully that will come through in this leadership election
:39:11. > :39:12.so I'm excited about it. I'm not focusing on one
:39:13. > :39:14.particular candidate. But it has got senior
:39:15. > :39:16.party figures worried. Several MEPs have told me
:39:17. > :39:18.the majority of their colleagues in Brussels would walk away
:39:19. > :39:20.if Anne Marie Waters Another Ukip senior source
:39:21. > :39:23.said there would be mass The deadline for leadership
:39:24. > :39:27.nominations is the 28th of July. So far, around seven people have
:39:28. > :39:29.said they intend to stand. Of course the bigger the field,
:39:30. > :39:32.the fewer the votes required to win. One senior MEP told me it would be
:39:33. > :39:35.the most rancorous contest the party had ever had,
:39:36. > :39:38.amongst the least stellar cast. The man who led Ukip at its most
:39:39. > :39:41.successful says direction is one thing but the party must also become
:39:42. > :39:43.more professional on their current
:39:44. > :39:51.trajectory, then they will on their current
:39:52. > :39:54.trajectory, then they will And as I say, if Ukip withers
:39:55. > :39:58.and Brexit is not delivered, something else will replace it
:39:59. > :40:01.so I'm saying to what is still my party, unless you change radically,
:40:02. > :40:03.get your act together, Whatever the direction
:40:04. > :40:13.the new leader takes Ukip, there are already plenty who think
:40:14. > :40:24.the party is over. We say goodbye to viewers
:40:25. > :40:40.in Scotland who leave us now Good morning and welcome
:40:41. > :40:42.to Sunday Politics Scotland. A power grab or a
:40:43. > :40:48.bonanza for Scotland? Holyrood and Westminster
:40:49. > :40:49.clash over Brexit. I'll be asking senior figures
:40:50. > :40:51.from both Governments whether there's any
:40:52. > :40:55.room for compromise. And as MSPS set off for a little
:40:56. > :40:58.summer rest and relaxation, we'll be looking ahead to some
:40:59. > :41:01.of the challenges for the SNP To Nicola Sturgeon it's "a naked
:41:02. > :41:09.power grab," while David Mundell says it'll turn out to be "a power
:41:10. > :41:12.bonanza" for Scotland. It'll be interesting to see over
:41:13. > :41:15.the next few weeks and months whether the Great Repeal Bill
:41:16. > :41:18.will continue to polarise views. Currently the First Minister,
:41:19. > :41:20.who took the unusual step of issuing a joint statement of condemnation
:41:21. > :41:22.with the Welsh First Minister Carwyn Jones,
:41:23. > :41:25.says she couldn't recommend the Bill so setting up a potentially
:41:26. > :41:27.explosive clash between the UK Well, joining me now is
:41:28. > :41:30.the Scottish Government's Minister for Brexit Negotiations,
:41:31. > :41:40.Mike Russell. First of all, you have written to
:41:41. > :41:47.MSPs asking for their support for the Scottish Government to be, I
:41:48. > :41:51.quote, at the table in the UK's Brexit negotiating strategy. What
:41:52. > :41:56.does that mean? It means taking part in the discussions that are ongoing
:41:57. > :41:59.month by month with the EU when matters of devolved confidence are
:42:00. > :42:04.being considered and matters that would affect Scotland. Such as
:42:05. > :42:09.freedom of movement. You are asking for a seat at the table in Brussels?
:42:10. > :42:12.The formulation that we and the Welsh have used is exactly the same,
:42:13. > :42:16.the seat at the table when devolved matters are being discussed and in
:42:17. > :42:20.the room when wider issues are being discussed. It's important that
:42:21. > :42:25.happens, because it is not happening and we are going into again and
:42:26. > :42:29.again substantial difficulties because the UK Government don't
:42:30. > :42:32.understand much of regulation or the devolved administrations. A lot of
:42:33. > :42:37.MSPs might say that the kind of agree with you that we need to know
:42:38. > :42:41.what is going to be devolved and what isn't, but we don't agree that
:42:42. > :42:45.the Scottish Government should be in the actual Brexit negotiations.
:42:46. > :42:54.Think there has been a majority in Parliament for that consistency. But
:42:55. > :42:56.you want everyone. That is the $64,000 question. Either
:42:57. > :43:02.Conservatives in Scotland going to stand up for Scotland? Milk like the
:43:03. > :43:05.Conservatives could see perfectly reasonably we could see the argument
:43:06. > :43:09.why the devolution of powers from Europe needs to be discussed and
:43:10. > :43:13.sorted out, but sorry, we're not going to let the Scottish Government
:43:14. > :43:19.PND Brexit negotiations. You already have to be a Scottish National at
:43:20. > :43:23.before you would think that. The Welsh are at Labour and they believe
:43:24. > :43:26.they should be part of it. Much academic opinion believes that there
:43:27. > :43:30.has to be in due process the involvement of devolved
:43:31. > :43:36.administrations. We cannot sit on the sidelines. The joint ministerial
:43:37. > :43:40.committee says that it should have oversight of these negotiations. In
:43:41. > :43:45.actual fact, it hasn't met since their breed. There have been reports
:43:46. > :43:50.that there are bilateral discussions going on between yourself and the
:43:51. > :43:57.Government in London. Is that true? DS, I've spoken to David Davis twice
:43:58. > :44:02.and met with him. Of course we are trying to have discussions. It is
:44:03. > :44:05.very hard to do when things like the Great Repeal Bill appear without any
:44:06. > :44:09.consultation and which are not only the wrong things, but also things
:44:10. > :44:15.that are not workable. Just to get the facts clear on this? Where you
:44:16. > :44:21.consulted before the European withdrawal Bill was discussed.
:44:22. > :44:26.Recites two weeks ago. It has been in existence since debris. The
:44:27. > :44:30.normal thing for a Bill of this nature would be that officials would
:44:31. > :44:34.work together over a long period of time to get it right, because it
:44:35. > :44:39.affects Scotland so much. We size century the final draft and
:44:40. > :44:43.virtually nothing changed between that and the publication. Although
:44:44. > :44:46.we asked them to take out clause 11, which is the clause that will cause
:44:47. > :44:54.the most difficulty and the Welsh asked them that too. They refused to
:44:55. > :44:56.change it. There has also been talk that there may be bilateral
:44:57. > :45:03.discussions between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon. The door is always
:45:04. > :45:07.open for discussion. I'm asking you what the British have and have said
:45:08. > :45:11.the about what they want to do. There has been no indication that
:45:12. > :45:17.the Prime Minister 's will Tok. The Welsh administration asked for talks
:45:18. > :45:20.between the Prime Minister and the Welsh primary. That has not been
:45:21. > :45:25.arranged. The suggestion was that the British Government wanted to
:45:26. > :45:29.have bilateral negotiations between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon
:45:30. > :45:37.because the problems in Northern Ireland were making it impossible.
:45:38. > :45:40.That is not true. This is an excuse. It's quite possible for the GMC to
:45:41. > :45:47.meet the diverse and Scottish governments. To make this point
:45:48. > :45:50.firmly, you cannot abolish the GMC unilaterally which is what the UK
:45:51. > :45:55.Government wants to do. There has to be a discussion between the parties
:45:56. > :45:59.if it's to be changed in any way. We have formally asked for a meeting
:46:00. > :46:06.with the GMC and the European Committee and is not been provided.
:46:07. > :46:11.Theorising that they will have these bilateral negotiations. The always
:46:12. > :46:17.welcome, but they are not a substitute for a formal negotiation.
:46:18. > :46:23.Have been formally approach to? -- have a formally approached you. No,
:46:24. > :46:27.it would have to be a meeting of the GMC to see we are going to move
:46:28. > :46:31.forward. Nicola Sturgeon said that as matters stand with this Bill, the
:46:32. > :46:36.Scottish Parliament, she would not recommend that the past a
:46:37. > :46:41.legislative consent motion. What would have to and freed to say you
:46:42. > :46:45.would do that. Would have to be recognition that in all areas of
:46:46. > :46:50.devolved competence, the powers that presently exist in Europe will come
:46:51. > :46:53.back to the devolved administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern
:46:54. > :46:58.Ireland. Then there can be a discussion about frameworks moving
:46:59. > :47:02.forward. Without that, not only is it unacceptable and goes against
:47:03. > :47:06.evolution, it is unworkable. You're going to enter into a complete mess
:47:07. > :47:11.were up until now, this isn't an arcane point, up until now there is
:47:12. > :47:18.a list of things that were devolved and reserved. The reserved ones are
:47:19. > :47:22.listed, now there will be areas which are neither are bold and
:47:23. > :47:25.decisions will be made by UK ministers without consulting the
:47:26. > :47:28.Scottish Parliament and Government on matters which are devolved. That
:47:29. > :47:34.is unacceptable and would lead to chaos. Using you would not support
:47:35. > :47:37.the legislative consent motion unless there is a deal done on this?
:47:38. > :47:40.Or are using that you want perhaps even on the face of the Bill a
:47:41. > :47:46.statement that this will be done? There has to be recognition that we
:47:47. > :47:52.are the people to whom these powers are devolved. The Welsh Government.
:47:53. > :47:56.Then we can discuss what common framework could take place. This is
:47:57. > :48:06.crucially important. Let me give you a specific example in agriculture.
:48:07. > :48:15.If we have a UK framework decided on by the Government without any
:48:16. > :48:18.opportunity for us to make decisions within there, then we'll have a
:48:19. > :48:21.framework that doesn't work for us. That's the whole purpose of
:48:22. > :48:26.devolution. That's why return to get this right. It is generally thought
:48:27. > :48:32.that even if you don't pass a legislative consent motion on the
:48:33. > :48:38.withdrawal Bill, it doesn't have much effect on the Supreme Court
:48:39. > :48:41.decision in the Jena Miller case in force that. Other than shedding a
:48:42. > :48:46.lot, is anything you can do about this? I think we are in a
:48:47. > :48:50.constitutional crisis and that becomes worse of this takes place.
:48:51. > :48:54.It's a very interesting piece in the Sunday papers by a political
:48:55. > :48:57.academic about this comparing it to previous constitutional crisis is.
:48:58. > :49:02.This would be a constitutional crisis, because the Scottish
:49:03. > :49:07.moment... What does that mean? We have a situation where Scotland has
:49:08. > :49:11.said and Scotland has said one thing and the UK Parliament has overruled
:49:12. > :49:16.it. Becoming that leads to good and effective governance and it doesn't
:49:17. > :49:20.lead to the type of relationship... There is nothing much you can do
:49:21. > :49:26.about it apart from complaint. Think that you want to avoid that in every
:49:27. > :49:29.possible way. You cannot wander into this crisis. It is the wrong thing
:49:30. > :49:35.to do. There will be outcomes that will be very serious. There will be
:49:36. > :49:39.areas that are inoperable. There are areas in Scottish civil law that if
:49:40. > :49:43.they perceive this, will be inoperable. In civil law, it is
:49:44. > :49:46.entirely devolved. The decisions are made in Scotland. There are areas
:49:47. > :49:50.within that were decisions will be made in England about things which
:49:51. > :49:55.they have no knowledge or information of. They had not been
:49:56. > :49:58.responsible for it for the last 20 years. We will have circumstances in
:49:59. > :50:02.which decisions are being made without any knowledge of the
:50:03. > :50:07.circumstances or without even consulting the appropriate Scottish
:50:08. > :50:14.love. Are you saying that decisions about England will be applicable...
:50:15. > :50:19.No, there is an administration of civil law which is undertaken with
:50:20. > :50:22.others. Decisions on aspects of serving papers for example
:50:23. > :50:26.internationally could be made and the Bill allows them to be made by
:50:27. > :50:32.UK ministers without consulting anybody in Scotland at all.
:50:33. > :50:40.David say, we are just trying to get something through which means we can
:50:41. > :50:49.bring something in European law into UK law. This is the wrong way to
:50:50. > :50:53.handle it. Both ourselves and the Welsh and part of the previous
:50:54. > :50:59.Northern Irish government have said so from the beginning. You have
:51:00. > :51:03.devolution, that is what happened during the referendum, bring the
:51:04. > :51:08.power is back. Then you say, how can we make this work? We have said, we
:51:09. > :51:13.will sit down and help you make this work. But we cannot do it this way.
:51:14. > :51:20.The bill is badly drafted. We have told them this. We have told them
:51:21. > :51:25.this repeatedly over a long period of time and unfortunately the
:51:26. > :51:29.negotiating style, this is the problem I think, very evident with
:51:30. > :51:34.27, there are negotiating style is not to listen, but to keep putting
:51:35. > :51:39.stuff out that will not work. Do you take it in good faith that they will
:51:40. > :51:44.negotiate more powers to Scotland or are you concerned they will use some
:51:45. > :51:50.of these Henry VIII powers to decide themselves? I cannot take it in good
:51:51. > :51:53.faith. I cannot take the promises being made by David Mundell and
:51:54. > :51:58.others because they have been made since January. We have not had an
:51:59. > :52:03.example of these additional powers we will get. We have not had a
:52:04. > :52:11.single example of we the will not be involved in these issues. There is
:52:12. > :52:13.nothing in this bill, not a word in the smell, that justifies the
:52:14. > :52:18.arguments of UK ministers. It does the opposite. Are you concerned that
:52:19. > :52:24.they can use these Henry VIII powers to decide what is devolved and what
:52:25. > :52:25.isn't? Yes, and that is what the intent to do. Thank you very much
:52:26. > :52:27.indeed. I'm joined now by the Undersecretary
:52:28. > :52:30.of State for Scotland, and Wales, the MEP,
:52:31. > :52:32.and soon to be Lord, Dr Ian Duncan - one
:52:33. > :52:41.man with many jobs. Ian Duncan, can we clarify what your
:52:42. > :52:53.current Kim -- position is. Are you still an MVP? No. You are now a
:52:54. > :52:57.minister. You are not in the House of Lords? I have not been introduced
:52:58. > :53:02.in the House of Lords yet, but I am a member of the House of Lords. Now
:53:03. > :53:08.we have got that cleared up, you heard Mike Russell there, they are
:53:09. > :53:12.saying they cannot possibly pass the legislative consent motion approving
:53:13. > :53:16.the so-called European withdrawal bill because nothing has been laid
:53:17. > :53:22.out about which mirrors will go to Scotland and which powers will be
:53:23. > :53:27.retained by London. He has got a point? No, what we have to do on D1
:53:28. > :53:32.is make sure we can function as a country. We have to make sure that
:53:33. > :53:40.all the rules and regulations are able to enter into UK law. UK,
:53:41. > :53:45.Scottish, English and Welsh law. Thereafter we will determine how we
:53:46. > :53:49.will make sure they will work within each of the devolved nations. What
:53:50. > :53:52.the Scottish Government and Welsh government are saying there is no
:53:53. > :53:57.reason you could not have sat down with them and discussed which powers
:53:58. > :54:01.would be, even if you were to do this momentarily if you like because
:54:02. > :54:04.of the reasons you have explained, you should have sat down and
:54:05. > :54:09.discussed with them which wires would go to Scotland and Wales and
:54:10. > :54:21.that nothing has been done. -- which powers. The key thing to remember
:54:22. > :54:27.here is we need to establish what is going to be a common framework. When
:54:28. > :54:33.the devolved administrations were set up, across a whole range of
:54:34. > :54:38.areas, agriculture and fisheries, there was a common framework. We
:54:39. > :54:43.need to establish what the common framework will look like when the
:54:44. > :54:47.eggs at the EU. There have been problems with this joint ministerial
:54:48. > :54:51.committee because of the situation in Northern Ireland. There have been
:54:52. > :54:56.these reports which we were talking about with Mike Russell, the British
:54:57. > :55:01.government was bilateral talks with the Scottish Government, perhaps
:55:02. > :55:06.talks between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon, is that true? There were
:55:07. > :55:09.troubles with the joint ministerial committees, that is going back
:55:10. > :55:16.nearly ten years. There will be meetings of this formulation, we
:55:17. > :55:20.need both. Including between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon? We are
:55:21. > :55:25.looking at a functional level. I do not think there will be talks
:55:26. > :55:30.between the devolved nations and the Prime Minister. But to make things
:55:31. > :55:36.work, we need to build a different approach. There will have to be
:55:37. > :55:39.bilateral. There will be talks particular to Wales, Scotland and
:55:40. > :55:48.Northern Ireland. And there will have to be other talks were weak
:55:49. > :55:52.discussed common issues. Are you surprised about the way the Scottish
:55:53. > :55:59.Government am approaching this patchwork no, I am not surprised. I
:56:00. > :56:06.spent years working in fisheries. When we leave the EU, we need to
:56:07. > :56:12.find a common framework. If we were to take powers to the Scottish
:56:13. > :56:18.Government, with its approach to fisheries, we would create an
:56:19. > :56:23.unlevel playing field for Scottish fishermen. We need to find a common
:56:24. > :56:28.approach that works with a common framework. When you talk about those
:56:29. > :56:31.bilateral discussions, as a about which powers should be devolved to
:56:32. > :56:36.Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland patchwork the Scottish
:56:37. > :56:40.Government's document which suggested either that the UK stay in
:56:41. > :56:43.the single market where there should be some special deal whereby
:56:44. > :56:50.Scotland can stay in the single market, that is being ruled out,
:56:51. > :56:55.has? When I was an MEP, I sat down with a secretariat who said it is
:56:56. > :56:59.not working and it is not possible. To spend energy on that
:57:00. > :57:06.impossibility would be a futile gesture. We need to find a man and
:57:07. > :57:14.means -- manner and means which is going to work for all the devolved
:57:15. > :57:18.governments. The clock is ticking. What Nicola Sturgeon are saying, she
:57:19. > :57:25.will not recommend that the Scottish parliament recommend or pass a
:57:26. > :57:28.legislative consent motion. You heard Mike Russell say that that
:57:29. > :57:37.would cause a constitutional crisis. With that much work it would cause
:57:38. > :57:40.fear and concern of every aspect of the industrial sector, farmers,
:57:41. > :57:44.fishermen, producers of energy. That is where the real concern will like.
:57:45. > :57:49.She will have to explain what she will do instead of that. It is not
:57:50. > :57:52.good enough to bolster. You need to be to say to people who will be
:57:53. > :57:57.affected after the date of breadth that that there is certainty, we
:57:58. > :58:07.will move forward and how we will do that. -- day of Brexit. Do you
:58:08. > :58:11.reject the idea there would be a constitutional crisis? The term is
:58:12. > :58:15.overused. But right now we would have significant difficulties in the
:58:16. > :58:20.Bali -- body politic in Scotland if there was no certainty of what laws
:58:21. > :58:24.would apply to Scotland after a particular Brexit foot. I think that
:58:25. > :58:29.would be bad. I think at that point there would be a series of
:58:30. > :58:35.negotiations. What does that mean? If you are saying, unless a
:58:36. > :58:39.legislative consent motion is passed, the laws that are currently
:58:40. > :58:45.part of European law and which will be passed on to the UK, with their
:58:46. > :58:50.not be more in Scotland? The lawyers north and south of the border have
:58:51. > :58:58.agreed that we need a legislative consent motion. They are putting in
:58:59. > :59:03.jeopardy all the people who depend upon... I ask you again the question
:59:04. > :59:09.I asked you a moment ago, what does this mean? This gets technical and
:59:10. > :59:12.people are having difficulty in understanding precisely what this
:59:13. > :59:19.means. If there is no legislative consent motion and if at the time of
:59:20. > :59:24.Brexit water at the, why do you say there will be great uncertainty,
:59:25. > :59:30.what precisely will happen? Some rules were right now are dependent
:59:31. > :59:33.upon the European Union. Many of those have implications whether they
:59:34. > :59:38.be across farming and fishing or small businesses. If those rules
:59:39. > :59:42.themselves are not enshrined into British law, then the framework for
:59:43. > :59:48.those to move forward lost. We need to have a legal framework that
:59:49. > :59:52.allows transactions to continue. Do you think there will be problems for
:59:53. > :59:56.Scottish businesses to do contracts in a way that would not apply in
:59:57. > :00:04.England because Westminster would have adopted this? They would be
:00:05. > :00:10.problems because these would need to be done in a common base. At that
:00:11. > :00:16.point the implication from Scotland is there. My concern is that while
:00:17. > :00:21.we enter into... The dialogue needs to be had. We need to be discussing
:00:22. > :00:25.to get the salt and find a way through. On day one we need to make
:00:26. > :00:30.sure that there is certain to across Scotland. You have heard Mike
:00:31. > :00:35.Russell say that he is concerned, in fact he believes that the British
:00:36. > :00:39.government will use these Henry VIII powers to determine what is devolved
:00:40. > :00:47.and what is not. Is that the case? No. Why not? Where there are any
:00:48. > :00:51.elements that are within a common framework they will need to have
:00:52. > :00:55.primary legislation is. They will have to go through Parliament. We
:00:56. > :00:58.are talking about a transition period in which we determined at
:00:59. > :01:04.that point how we will collectively want to ensure a common framework.
:01:05. > :01:09.Let's end on this. You are guaranteeing to make Russell that
:01:10. > :01:13.his worries are unfounded and there is no way that the special measures,
:01:14. > :01:18.these Henry VIII powers will be used to determine what is and what is not
:01:19. > :01:21.within their powers of the Scottish Government? These powers will be
:01:22. > :01:26.determined to find out what will be part of the common framework of the
:01:27. > :01:32.EU, that will be done with an agreement with all the elements.
:01:33. > :01:36.They will be parts that will go back into Scotland, England and Wales
:01:37. > :01:37.because they do not form part of a component of a common framework.
:01:38. > :01:40.Thank you very much indeed. Last week in a report on the Corbyn
:01:41. > :01:45.factor in Scotland, we said that the MSP and Campaign
:01:46. > :01:47.for Socialism Convenor, Neil Finlay, had stood against Kezia Dugdale
:01:48. > :01:50.for the Scottish Labour leadership. Mr Finlay had in fact stood
:01:51. > :01:53.during the 2014 leadership campaign Now, it's the last Sunday Politics
:01:54. > :01:59.before our summer break. And for the politicians,
:02:00. > :02:02.the holidays aren't just a respite from being interviewed by the likes
:02:03. > :02:05.of me, they also allow ample time not least the fallout
:02:06. > :02:10.from the general election. For the SNP, which lost 21
:02:11. > :02:13.seats at Westminster, there's much debate about how to win
:02:14. > :02:16.back support and what it In a moment, I'll be asking
:02:17. > :02:21.Alex Salmond's former Chief But first, Graham Stewart's been
:02:22. > :02:37.measuring the political temperature. So the holidays and upon as giving
:02:38. > :02:46.politicians plenty of time to reflect on the election and ponder
:02:47. > :02:51.the next moves. In the midst of your wave, you have not seen the last of
:02:52. > :03:01.my bonnet signed me. Alex Almond will host is on show at the
:03:02. > :03:10.Edinburgh Festival fringe. -- Alex Almond. Devastated enough to shed a
:03:11. > :03:17.tear? Yes, a little tear. At that moment? At that moment, yeah. Here
:03:18. > :03:22.years, Jeremy Corbyn! You have brought the spirit of music, you
:03:23. > :03:25.have brought the spirit of love, you have brought the spirit of ideas and
:03:26. > :03:36.you have brought the spirit of a great messages. So to politicians
:03:37. > :03:40.who might have a future career on the stage and one who might well be
:03:41. > :03:44.exiting the stage before long. But the SNP, the summer will be spent on
:03:45. > :03:49.reflecting how they managed to lose 21 seats in the general election.
:03:50. > :03:52.The party may look back for some inspiration in 2005 when they went
:03:53. > :03:58.from being the second biggest Scottish party to third behind the
:03:59. > :04:02.Lib Dems. In a plush hotel on the banks of the spray, that summer, a
:04:03. > :04:08.new strategy was hatched. Involving a creed -- clear message and a
:04:09. > :04:13.desire to win. And according to one who was there, it was a winning
:04:14. > :04:20.strategy. Back in 2005, the SNP were anti-everything and for nothing.
:04:21. > :04:25.Look back on it and I wince as some of the things that we said and be
:04:26. > :04:33.voted at that point. But right now we have a real positive vote to go
:04:34. > :04:37.on. They have been defensive on the record. They should be singing on
:04:38. > :04:41.the rooftops of what we are doing and where we want to go. You're not
:04:42. > :04:45.voting for the status quo, you're voting for a progression. I think
:04:46. > :04:50.that is what Jeremy Corbyn was all about. For one figure on the left of
:04:51. > :04:54.the independence movement, a bit of jazz is stale passion from the SNP
:04:55. > :05:00.would be welcome. I am proud to say I voted for Jeremy Corbyn. I voted
:05:01. > :05:04.for him and his manifesto because it was a UK election for the UK
:05:05. > :05:11.Government. But for voting for a Jeremy Corbyn, I not undermining the
:05:12. > :05:14.independence cause? Absolutely not. There is a clear constitutional
:05:15. > :05:18.crisis in the UK that carbon does not have the answers to. I would
:05:19. > :05:23.like the SNP to be more radical. I would also like to see a plurality
:05:24. > :05:28.for independence where the SNP are not the sole voice for independence.
:05:29. > :05:33.But will shift to the left make it more difficult to win back voters
:05:34. > :05:38.from the Tories who claim some major scalps in the SNP's former
:05:39. > :05:50.heartlands. The deputy leader reckons the north-east voters a lost
:05:51. > :05:56.cause. If we are going to hold the majority of votes in Westminster and
:05:57. > :06:00.the majority of seats Holyrood, then we better have a much more radical
:06:01. > :06:05.policy than we have at the present time. A leading pollster urges
:06:06. > :06:11.caution though but urges a party not to be spooked by the much vaunted
:06:12. > :06:15.leader bouts. Scottish Labour put on about 1.5 points between the two
:06:16. > :06:20.elections. I do not think that means that the SNP should be moving to the
:06:21. > :06:25.left. What they need to be doing and need to understand is why the
:06:26. > :06:29.majority of its last fought actually stayed at home this time rather than
:06:30. > :06:36.voted for one of the two other parties. So that 70% of the lost SNP
:06:37. > :06:41.voters, the people who voted for the SNP in 2015 who did not vote for
:06:42. > :06:51.them in 2017, about 70% of that fought actually stayed at home. The
:06:52. > :06:55.focus now is on getting the best Brexit deal for Scotland. But as the
:06:56. > :06:59.party rethinks its strategy, the hopes and aspirations of
:07:00. > :07:07.independence supporters hang in the balance. I will now take the steps
:07:08. > :07:13.necessary to make sure that Scotland will have a choice. We will not seek
:07:14. > :07:17.to introduce the legislation for an independence referendum immediately.
:07:18. > :07:18.I said that I'm going to reflect carefully on the result and I'm
:07:19. > :07:27.going to take time to do that. Well, to discuss Graham's film
:07:28. > :07:29.and other matters I'm joined now by political commentator
:07:30. > :07:31.and formerly Alex Salmond's chief of staff, Geoff Aberdein
:07:32. > :07:33.and the political consultant and former Labour MP for
:07:34. > :07:49.West Dumbartonshire, Gemma Doyle. Reboot SNP, what would you do about
:07:50. > :07:53.the independence referendum? It seems to have been kicked into the
:07:54. > :07:58.long grass, but the critics would say they haven't formally cancelled
:07:59. > :08:02.the idea. We have to be more positive about their own record. The
:08:03. > :08:05.difficulty we saw in the general election with the Labour and the
:08:06. > :08:10.Conservatives have had some traction since then, they have had successful
:08:11. > :08:13.results, the need to be more positive, be bolder and on the front
:08:14. > :08:17.foot. They need to read events rather than react to them. That will
:08:18. > :08:21.be what we see from Nicola Sturgeon to wear the end of the summer. In
:08:22. > :08:28.terms of independence, that is intrinsically linked to Brexit. It
:08:29. > :08:32.is hard Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon can return to the electorate and...
:08:33. > :08:39.Using she should keep options open? Water back from my perspective, the
:08:40. > :08:42.SNP exists to achieve independence. I don't mean independence, I mean
:08:43. > :08:46.the second one, there was a perception that that lost them both
:08:47. > :08:49.in the general election and of course the Conservatives will keep
:08:50. > :08:55.banging on about this. They will keep saying, you have not taken it
:08:56. > :08:58.off the table. One option would be to say realistically this isn't
:08:59. > :09:03.going to happen before the next Scottish election, so let's shelve
:09:04. > :09:06.it and talk about it then. I think the way the body has began to
:09:07. > :09:10.describe it as an insurance policy is quite right and they should keep
:09:11. > :09:14.their induced Brexit goes in the wrong direction and it is a hard
:09:15. > :09:20.Brexit. Having that option to save their is a life jacket. Before that,
:09:21. > :09:23.what is most important for the party is that they promote and defend
:09:24. > :09:28.their record. That has been lacking for some months now. Despite
:09:29. > :09:33.interesting that Kat Boyd said in actual machine voted for Jeremy
:09:34. > :09:39.Corbyn. There is a perception that a lot of young people, a lot of people
:09:40. > :09:42.who might be considered on the left politics voted even if they
:09:43. > :09:45.supported independence actually ended up boarding for Jeremy Corbyn
:09:46. > :09:48.and there is the way in for Labour there, but it didn't have very much
:09:49. > :09:54.to do with Scottish Labour leadership. Idling the way back for
:09:55. > :09:56.Labour is anything to do with independence. At the Labour Party
:09:57. > :10:03.were successful this year because they did a very clear line on
:10:04. > :10:07.independence and against any... That's not what I'm suggesting. What
:10:08. > :10:10.I'm suggesting is that a lot of people who might have voted for
:10:11. > :10:16.independence were attracted by Jeremy Corbyn baulk version of
:10:17. > :10:22.Labour politics not Kezia Dugdale. Idling that is right. I think the
:10:23. > :10:26.vote at the election this year was no much about her being very clear
:10:27. > :10:30.about what the Scottish Labour Party were standing for. Kat Boyd is in a
:10:31. > :10:36.different party from one weeks to do next. She is not the best of
:10:37. > :10:39.political... But what she is saying... There is a perception that
:10:40. > :10:43.a lot of young people in Scotland did vote free Jeremy Corbyn and a
:10:44. > :10:48.lot of young people might have voted yes in the independence referendum.
:10:49. > :10:57.That is an issue for the SNP, because the danger is that it is
:10:58. > :11:00.kind of two years ago was news. Independence is from 2014, forget
:11:01. > :11:07.about that, there is something much more exciting. If the election had
:11:08. > :11:10.been even a week later... I think the young aspirational vote might
:11:11. > :11:16.move to the Labour Party. I think that's absolutely right. For the
:11:17. > :11:19.Labour Party, what interesting is that the relationship between UK
:11:20. > :11:22.Labour and Scottish Labour. Jeremy Corbyn was deemed as a liability
:11:23. > :11:25.going into the election and then was deemed as an asset towards the end
:11:26. > :11:30.of the election. They have a decision to make about whether or
:11:31. > :11:34.not the tap into that aspirational vote and wholeheartedly back him.
:11:35. > :11:37.The Labour Party don't have a coherent position quite yet on
:11:38. > :11:42.Brexit. We need to see where they are on that before they adopt the
:11:43. > :11:49.approach of Jeremy Corbyn. Lisa Mike Russell and Ian Duncan on opposite
:11:50. > :11:56.sides. -- we start. Mike Russell is worried that what is devolved will
:11:57. > :11:59.be accepted unilaterally by the UK Government. Ian Duncan says that
:12:00. > :12:04.will not happen. I did Scottish Government grandstanding in the view
:12:05. > :12:08.of this? Or I'd be making a perfectly reasonable point? Think
:12:09. > :12:13.they are right to say that they want to be more involved in the
:12:14. > :12:17.negotiations. But at the table in Brussels? Or just at the
:12:18. > :12:20.negotiations? I think there are ways of doing that, bringing in civil
:12:21. > :12:23.servants from the juries administrations in the UK. Dumbing
:12:24. > :12:30.that's impossible. I think it would be sensible. The UK Government to
:12:31. > :12:34.need as much support across the parties on this and if they do
:12:35. > :12:36.involve more parties and the Scottish rent and the Welsh
:12:37. > :12:43.tournament, there is more chance of it being a success. Should the SMB
:12:44. > :12:48.blade this typically? Rather than immediately saying they wouldn't
:12:49. > :12:52.pass the consent motion? -- shoot at the SMP have played this
:12:53. > :12:56.differently. If they had been more cautious and said this is what we
:12:57. > :12:59.want, we are not getting it would call for immediate meetings and
:13:00. > :13:06.negotiations. Would people have said that as more reasonable? Going by
:13:07. > :13:13.the side of this process, this wasn't perhaps more obvious.
:13:14. > :13:17.Normally summer is a quiet time for politics, but it will not be this
:13:18. > :13:23.year. Let's see how the SNP do with this. They might be able to get
:13:24. > :13:27.positive results in terms of people's reactions to their
:13:28. > :13:31.proposals when and if, we will wait and see, the Conservative Government
:13:32. > :13:41.say they will not be the sparrows. That is a big F. -- powers. By the
:13:42. > :13:45.British into finger trying to do to get Brexit to work? Simek pedalled
:13:46. > :13:49.think they have been deliberately excluded, I think the UK Government
:13:50. > :13:50.just have to get this right. We have to leave this here. This week, we
:13:51. > :13:52.are off for the summer. We'll be back in September.
:13:53. > :14:06.Until then, goodbye. Yeah. And it wasn't,
:14:07. > :14:09.it was done by hand