05/11/2017

0:00:36 > 0:00:38Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:38 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:43 > 0:00:44of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:44 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:50Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:50 > 0:00:56police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:56 > 0:00:59He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:00:59 > 0:01:02With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:02 > 0:01:05can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:05 > 0:01:06to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:06 > 0:01:10the entire political class?

0:01:10 > 0:01:17We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:17 > 0:01:20And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:20 > 0:01:23years since the Russian Revolution, but was it an event that should be

0:01:23 > 0:01:26And on Sunday Politics Scotland, more sexual harassment claims come

0:01:26 > 0:01:29to light as a Labour MSP says she was sexually assaulted

0:01:29 > 0:01:33and a Government minister is forced to resign.

0:01:45 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:54a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:54 > 0:01:55gunpowder and treason.

0:01:55 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:09Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:09 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:20of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:20 > 0:02:22police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:22 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:28police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:28 > 0:02:36and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:36 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:11And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:11 > 0:03:14with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:14 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:23against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:23 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:48respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:48 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:17makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:17 > 0:04:20Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:20 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:26deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:26 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:54allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:54 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:03were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:03 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:20beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:20 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:30without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:30 > 0:06:35scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:35 > 0:06:39Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:39 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:03there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:03 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:18her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:18 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:29Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:29 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:38 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:51regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:51 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:34chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:34 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:50they might be regulated.

0:08:50 > 0:08:52Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:52 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:59counterparts this week.

0:08:59 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:10talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:10 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:17Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:17 > 0:09:20morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:20 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:40ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:40 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:49that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:49 > 0:09:55investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:55 > 0:10:00and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:10:00 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:06test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:06 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:15exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:15 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:32environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:32 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:46bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:46 > 0:10:51Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:51 > 0:10:56the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:56 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:08House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:08 > 0:11:14well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:14 > 0:11:18thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:18 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:49yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:49 > 0:11:53certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:53 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:07authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:07 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:23brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:23 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:31didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:31 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:41flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:41 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:51the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:51 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:25sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:25 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:39find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:39 > 0:13:42of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:42 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:15It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:15 > 0:14:19terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:19 > 0:14:22and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:22 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:36children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:36 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:46the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:46 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:56support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:56 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:04need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:04 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:08Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:08 > 0:15:13saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:13 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:28 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:38of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:38 > 0:15:41greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:41 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:50Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:50 > 0:15:52at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:52 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:56in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:56 > 0:15:58is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:58 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:04which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:04 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:13And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:13 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:20 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:31secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:31 > 0:16:36Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:36 > 0:16:39same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:39 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:49and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:49 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:58Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:58 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:19more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:19 > 0:17:24In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:24 > 0:17:27McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:27 > 0:17:33using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:33 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:48whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:48 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:56pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:56 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:17last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:17 > 0:18:22very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:22 > 0:18:26and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:26 > 0:18:31commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:31 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:44calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:44 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:17pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:17 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:30overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:30 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:52it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:52 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:05been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:05 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:15weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:15 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:34treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:34 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:49missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:49 > 0:20:54nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:54 > 0:20:58that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:58 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:22have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:22 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:30else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:30 > 0:21:35have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:35 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:51eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:51 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:04aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:04 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:14understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:14 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:09that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:09 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:30whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:30 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:51position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:51 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:10have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:10 > 0:24:16did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:16 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:28 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:54treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:54 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:08was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:08 > 0:25:15it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:15 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:25of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:25 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:33independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:33 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:42friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:42 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:19plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:19 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:25 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:42Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:42 > 0:26:45This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:45 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:02of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:02 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:10Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:10 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:24October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:24 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:37there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:37 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:43Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:43 > 0:27:46this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:46 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:51the discourse of history.

0:27:51 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:32from the Cold War period.

0:28:32 > 0:28:34It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:34 > 0:28:36But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:36 > 0:28:39The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:39 > 0:28:42of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:42 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:52the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55We wanted to have this conference

0:28:55 > 0:28:58because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:58 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:09of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:10 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:25camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:25 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:38So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:38 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:52Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:52 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:04truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:04 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:28his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:28 > 0:30:32Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:32 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:19And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:19 > 0:31:23Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:23 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:36cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:36 > 0:31:53Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:53 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:12misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:12 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:28to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:28 > 0:32:33acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:33 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:53Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:53 > 0:32:57never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:57 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:06events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:06 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:14is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:14 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:29China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:29 > 0:33:34people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:34 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:46mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:46 > 0:33:49which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:59complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:59 > 0:34:04about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:04 > 0:34:06events? A popular overthrowing of a

0:34:06 > 0:34:07Is it possible to separate the two government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:40has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:40 > 0:34:46Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:46 > 0:34:49overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:49 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:14discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:14 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:23 > 0:35:25world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:25 > 0:35:30and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:30 > 0:35:33Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:33 > 0:35:38You were saying earlier you have

0:35:38 > 0:35:39You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:39 > 0:35:45Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:45 > 0:35:48one time.Absolutely was a Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

0:35:48 > 0:35:54folly of that particular political disposition.John McDonnell in the

0:35:54 > 0:36:00Labour Party openly says he is a Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

0:36:00 > 0:36:03problem for the Labour Party?I would have thought, arts would be

0:36:03 > 0:36:07more respected now than he has been for quite some time as capitalism is

0:36:07 > 0:36:14collapsing around our ears. From 2008 the Economist itself, the bible

0:36:14 > 0:36:18of capitalism, began to resurrect Marxist economics and analysis, so I

0:36:18 > 0:36:24really don't think it is. Jeremy Corbyn is not a Marxist.

0:36:24 > 0:36:30Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...

0:36:30 > 0:36:33took them four years, 54...It is not that.

0:36:33 > 0:36:38not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:38 > 0:36:42Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:42 > 0:36:46them, and thus transforming their position.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50position. China in 1949, and I don't need to tell you, was just about the

0:36:50 > 0:36:55most backward place you could possibly imagine.

0:36:55 > 0:36:58possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:58 > 0:37:01is the world's biggest economy...

0:37:01 > 0:37:05is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of

0:37:05 > 0:37:08are in danger of getting sidetracked by China here.I have to put this

0:37:08 > 0:37:13point in. If China was backward in 1949 it was far more backward by the

0:37:13 > 0:37:16time Mao Zedong finished his great leap forward and starved millions of

0:37:16 > 0:37:21people to death in the period of economic lunacy.

0:37:21 > 0:37:24economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:24 > 0:37:28they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:28 > 0:37:30country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:30 > 0:37:34don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:34 > 0:37:38of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:38 > 0:37:42not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:42 > 0:37:46the Soviet system, which is

0:37:46 > 0:37:47the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:47 > 0:37:51own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:51 > 0:37:54in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:54 > 0:37:57to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:57 > 0:38:00not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:00 > 0:38:05and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:05 > 0:38:09has never been shown

0:38:09 > 0:38:11has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:11 > 0:38:17go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:17 > 0:38:19truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:19 > 0:38:22that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:22 > 0:38:25told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:25 > 0:38:29been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:29 > 0:38:33it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.

0:38:33 > 0:38:37obscene.George, one interesting question about this of course,

0:38:37 > 0:38:40whilst there are events going on in London and across the UK to mark

0:38:40 > 0:38:43this centenary, it is not being celebrated in Russia.I was in

0:38:43 > 0:38:47Russia a couple of weeks ago. There is a big debate about whether it

0:38:47 > 0:38:52ought to be, and many people are celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is

0:38:52 > 0:38:55not. He would want to ignore it.But the Communist Party is the second

0:38:55 > 0:38:58biggest party in Russia.

0:38:58 > 0:39:02biggest party in Russia. And it is the ruling party in China, which,

0:39:02 > 0:39:06with respect, is not a separate thing, because China is continuing

0:39:06 > 0:39:09the Russian Revolution and doing rather better at it than the

0:39:09 > 0:39:12Russians did, but there are

0:39:12 > 0:39:14Russians did, but there are many people, particularly older, that is

0:39:14 > 0:39:20true, who think that the era of the Soviet Union was better than the

0:39:20 > 0:39:22Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:22 > 0:39:24succeeded it. So half

0:39:24 > 0:39:28succeeded it. So half the world followed for a

0:39:28 > 0:39:32followed for a time the red flag, the red

0:39:32 > 0:39:36the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again.

0:39:36 > 0:39:38will do so again. Leninism of the kind that Peter used to proselytise

0:39:38 > 0:39:43is certainly not coming back, but Marxism is going to live on.Let's

0:39:43 > 0:39:47hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen, for coming on to

0:39:47 > 0:39:48It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:54 > 0:39:56Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:39:56 > 0:40:00Coming up on the programme...

0:40:00 > 0:40:04What should Holyrood do about sexual harassment claims,

0:40:04 > 0:40:06after MSP Monica Lennon makes allegations of sexual assault

0:40:06 > 0:40:07and last night's resignation

0:40:07 > 0:40:10of the Government minister Mark McDonald?

0:40:10 > 0:40:13Scottish Labour will have a new leader in place

0:40:13 > 0:40:14in two weeks' time.

0:40:14 > 0:40:16I'll be speaking to the two candidates Anas Sarwar

0:40:16 > 0:40:20and Richard Leonard about why they want the job.

0:40:20 > 0:40:23And a former adviser to Donald Trump has said the US

0:40:23 > 0:40:27President could support Scottish independence in a future referendum

0:40:27 > 0:40:30but only "if it makes sense".

0:40:30 > 0:40:35More claims of sexual harassment have come to light as a Labour MSP

0:40:35 > 0:40:42says she was sexually assaulted, and a Scottish Government minister

0:40:42 > 0:40:44resigned last night over his past actions which he now

0:40:44 > 0:40:46says were" considered to be inappropriate".

0:40:46 > 0:40:50Our political correspondent Andrew Kerr has more.

0:40:50 > 0:40:54Just bring us to speed with the latest allegations at Holyrood.Good

0:40:54 > 0:41:01morning. Monica Lennon is a rising star in the Scottish Labour Party.

0:41:01 > 0:41:06Before she became an MSP in 2013, she says she was groped at a Labour

0:41:06 > 0:41:12Party event by a senior male colleague. She made an initial

0:41:12 > 0:41:15complaint, but did not follow it through because she was concerned

0:41:15 > 0:41:21she would not be believed. She has chosen to speak out just now the

0:41:21 > 0:41:25highlight that sexism is rife, she is calling for a change in culture

0:41:25 > 0:41:30and so far she is the most senior Labour politician to make such an

0:41:30 > 0:41:37allegation. The Labour Party have released a statement saying they

0:41:37 > 0:41:40take all allegations seriously, we ask anyone with a complaint to come

0:41:40 > 0:41:46forward so allegations can be investigated. The other big story

0:41:46 > 0:41:51was that the SNP MSP Mark McDonald, the childcare Minister resigned

0:41:51 > 0:41:56citing that his behaviour had been inappropriate and now the First

0:41:56 > 0:41:59Minister will have to find a replacement in due course, we are

0:41:59 > 0:42:05told. Another story today as well, this morning the Sunday Post is

0:42:05 > 0:42:14reporting that Willie coffee, was ported to Holyrood authorities after

0:42:14 > 0:42:19a civil servant complained about his behaviour. The MSP says he does not

0:42:19 > 0:42:23recognise the claims about his behaviour.And it is not just

0:42:23 > 0:42:27Holyrood, there is a string of allegations at Westminster.A whole

0:42:27 > 0:42:35string that, the most important one today I suppose is the fact an

0:42:35 > 0:42:38investigation into the first Secretary of State Damian Green has

0:42:38 > 0:42:42been widened out over allegations that pornography was found on his

0:42:42 > 0:42:48office computer back in 2008. He was an opposition that, the Labour Party

0:42:48 > 0:42:52were in Government and their were Home Office leaks, that is why it

0:42:52 > 0:42:58was raided by police. He says the story is completely untrue and comes

0:42:58 > 0:43:04from a tainted and untrustworthy salt. More allegations about the

0:43:04 > 0:43:06former Secretary of State for Defence Michael Fallon who resigned

0:43:06 > 0:43:11juror in the week over his behaviour, a female journalist says

0:43:11 > 0:43:17he lunged at her a number of years ago, friends of Sir Michael are not

0:43:17 > 0:43:21denying the allegation. There are a number of other stories in the

0:43:21 > 0:43:26Sunday papers about Westminster too numerous to mention.Thank you for

0:43:26 > 0:43:28joining us.

0:43:28 > 0:43:30We contacted the Scottish Government this morning for comment about this

0:43:30 > 0:43:33issue, but they were unable to put anyone up for interview

0:43:33 > 0:43:34on the programme.

0:43:34 > 0:43:40Now, there are only two weeks left in the Labour leadership contest

0:43:40 > 0:43:42and both candidates have been slugging it out over policy matters

0:43:42 > 0:43:45in order to win members' votes.

0:43:45 > 0:43:48We'll be asking them about their claims to lead in a moment.

0:43:48 > 0:43:51However, this morning MSP Monica Lennon has made a fresh

0:43:51 > 0:43:53allegation of sexual assault, which she claimed was reported

0:43:53 > 0:43:56to the party but she then decided not to take it further

0:43:56 > 0:43:58because she felt she would not be believed.

0:43:58 > 0:44:00Well, Anas Sarwar and Richard Leonard are in the studio now.

0:44:00 > 0:44:07Welcome to you both.

0:44:07 > 0:44:12Just on this whole issue, Anas Sarwar, of sexual harassment. The

0:44:12 > 0:44:18allegations are reported from Monica Lennon but also from other people in

0:44:18 > 0:44:24the Labour Party. There is a culture within Labour where they feel they

0:44:24 > 0:44:30cannot come forward to complain, that they are, if they do mention

0:44:30 > 0:44:35it, it is trivialised and they are made fun of. This is not good, is

0:44:35 > 0:44:40there are a serious problem and what should be done?Monica Lennon is a

0:44:40 > 0:44:44colleague and friend of both Richard and I and I believe both of those

0:44:44 > 0:44:49would be distressed to read the news this morning. The reality is this is

0:44:49 > 0:44:53not an isolated case within the Labour Party, sadly wherever there

0:44:53 > 0:44:57are those who think they have a perceived position of power, they

0:44:57 > 0:45:01abuse it, that is happening within political parties and in our

0:45:01 > 0:45:05Parliament and probably happening in workplaces across the country. What

0:45:05 > 0:45:10we have to do is try and create the space for a woman to be able to come

0:45:10 > 0:45:15forward and speak if they wish to do so, not forced to, but if they wish

0:45:15 > 0:45:24to do so, create safe spaces for that. This culture of people abusing

0:45:24 > 0:45:32their position of power is unacceptable, unacceptable many

0:45:32 > 0:45:37years ago and it is unacceptable now. That is why ministers may say

0:45:37 > 0:45:43it was OK in the past, but not now. The fact is that that safe space to

0:45:43 > 0:45:49come forward and be taken seriously, people like Monica Lennon and others

0:45:49 > 0:45:53do not feel there is a culture in the Labour Party where they can do

0:45:53 > 0:45:58that.That is something we need to fix. I am somebody who strongly

0:45:58 > 0:46:02supports the idea of an independent channel that people can go down so

0:46:02 > 0:46:07they are not speaking to people where there may be a perceived or

0:46:07 > 0:46:11actual conflict of interest. I think what we need to do as the Scottish

0:46:11 > 0:46:16Labour Party is appoint someone of some standing, perhaps someone with

0:46:16 > 0:46:19a background image quality is campaigning...Someone outside the

0:46:19 > 0:46:26Labour Party?Certainly outside the Parliamentary structures and the

0:46:26 > 0:46:30representative structures of the Labour Party. Someone with an

0:46:30 > 0:46:33sufficient independence and a sufficient standing in the eyes of

0:46:33 > 0:46:39both women members and those people who think they have been wronged. I

0:46:39 > 0:46:44think we need to create the space, and independent space separate from

0:46:44 > 0:46:48the current structures of the Labour Party in order to do that because

0:46:48 > 0:46:55the revelations today by Monica Lennon are appalling. If her story

0:46:55 > 0:46:59is that she has complained to the Labour Party and not felt confident

0:46:59 > 0:47:05than to pursue it, that is wrong. Also there was a culture where she

0:47:05 > 0:47:08mentioned it was trivialised, to was not taken seriously. Other women

0:47:08 > 0:47:14have said that as well.And other women have said that to me recently

0:47:14 > 0:47:19and I think we need to act on it, I do not think we can ignore it, I

0:47:19 > 0:47:24think we need to take strident action. After all, the Labour Party

0:47:24 > 0:47:27is founded on the value of equality and if women do not feel

0:47:27 > 0:47:32comfortable, if they feel as if they are opening themselves up

0:47:32 > 0:47:35potentially do this kind of behaviour, then that is not a

0:47:35 > 0:47:39welcoming Labour Party and that is not a Labour Party we can't

0:47:39 > 0:47:45tolerate. We need zero tolerance of this, and into independent route set

0:47:45 > 0:47:50up by the Labour Party and we need to take action now.You two are

0:47:50 > 0:47:54standing against each other, the voting has started. Anas Sarwar,

0:47:54 > 0:47:59give me one policy you have that Richard Leonard doesn't have that

0:47:59 > 0:48:03makes you think people should vote for you.We are currently facing

0:48:03 > 0:48:07austerity right across the country and we have tax powers in Scotland

0:48:07 > 0:48:11to stop austerity but about is why I want to use the tax powers we have

0:48:11 > 0:48:20to create a genuinely progressive redistribution of tax policy. A

0:48:20 > 0:48:29significant tax increase to the 2%. Richard Leonard once that as well.

0:48:29 > 0:48:32Richard Leonard once that as well.I want to increase tax in the top 2%

0:48:32 > 0:48:37which would raise millions of pounds to fund our Scottish child tax

0:48:37 > 0:48:40credit policy and put in new money into our schools and hospitals.What

0:48:40 > 0:48:45is your distinctive policy?We need a once in a generation debate about

0:48:45 > 0:48:48the kind of society we want to build, the public services we need

0:48:48 > 0:48:57and how we will fund that. We need a debate about our taxation approach.

0:48:57 > 0:49:02What I have said which is distinctive from Anas Mapproach is

0:49:02 > 0:49:10we now need to look at a wealth tax because we live in a society where

0:49:10 > 0:49:17the top 1% in Scotland and more wealth than the bottom 50%.When you

0:49:17 > 0:49:22say a wealth tax, what are you talking about?I am talking about a

0:49:22 > 0:49:301% windfall levy on the wealth of the top 10% that would bring in a

0:49:30 > 0:49:32£3.7 billion into Scottish expenditure.The Scottish Government

0:49:32 > 0:49:37have said it is not within the power of the Scottish Government,

0:49:37 > 0:49:41parliament is to do that.There is a route to do it through an order of

0:49:41 > 0:49:46Council and of the 1998 Scotland act and I believe this is about

0:49:46 > 0:49:50political will, a matter of creativity, a matter of saying we

0:49:50 > 0:49:54cannot go on as we are. Simply trying to manage our way out of it.

0:49:54 > 0:49:59You are saying we should value the assets of everyone in Scotland and

0:49:59 > 0:50:06the top 1% will take 1% of those assets?

0:50:06 > 0:50:13In we value them anyway.Why are you against that? I am not against that.

0:50:13 > 0:50:18The reality is we do not have time for the debate and we do not have

0:50:18 > 0:50:23time for an argument about what is within the law and not within the

0:50:23 > 0:50:27law in the Scottish Government. I have put forward a plan that will

0:50:27 > 0:50:33address and end austerity in a few weeks' time.Neither of you are

0:50:33 > 0:50:40going to be First Minister.In the next decade. There is a discussion

0:50:40 > 0:50:46paper being forehead by the Scottish Government. We know that. That is

0:50:46 > 0:50:50asking for a tax policies. I am saying that rather than talking

0:50:50 > 0:50:56about what we might do in two or three years' time, I want to end

0:50:56 > 0:51:01austerity nine. We will cut tax at the bottom 50% and increase tax on

0:51:01 > 0:51:06the top 2%.Throughout this campaign supporters of both of you have been

0:51:06 > 0:51:09making a big fuss about recruitment to the Labour Party in order to vote

0:51:09 > 0:51:16for you. There have been allegations on your side, Anas, there have been

0:51:16 > 0:51:19separate ballots, there have been allegations that the Unite union

0:51:19 > 0:51:27have been recruiting on your side. Is it true, Anas, that you sort QC's

0:51:27 > 0:51:31advice on the legality of this election?We raised concerns that

0:51:31 > 0:51:37were brought to us by individual members from one particular union.

0:51:37 > 0:51:46But did you get QC's involved?It was so that we could have... What

0:51:46 > 0:51:49did that value? There should be a level playing field and it should be

0:51:49 > 0:51:54the same rule applied right across... Are you suggesting there

0:51:54 > 0:51:59wasn't. We were told that was not the case and we took it forward.So

0:51:59 > 0:52:03you got advice. You are not suggesting you will act on that. Can

0:52:03 > 0:52:10you give us an Guaranty, even if this result of this election is very

0:52:10 > 0:52:15close, you will not challenge it in the courts?My fundamental issue is

0:52:15 > 0:52:19that we want to make sure that procedure is there. What I want to

0:52:19 > 0:52:26see happen is this contest is to be about the ideas and after this

0:52:26 > 0:52:29contest, whoever wins, we unite behind their leader and get behind

0:52:29 > 0:52:35him.So even if there is a narrow win for Richard Leonard, you will

0:52:35 > 0:52:40not challenge in the courts?No, I will support Richard. And I would

0:52:40 > 0:52:46hope that Richard would do the same back?Would you do that? Is Anas

0:52:46 > 0:52:52wins, you will not resort to legal challenge and accept the result?I

0:52:52 > 0:52:57will accept the result. I have put my faith in the internal Labour

0:52:57 > 0:53:02Party process. I think it is a fairly robust process. Accretions

0:53:02 > 0:53:07layer people have been found out they should not have a ballot, their

0:53:07 > 0:53:12names have come to light because the scrutiny and checks and balances.

0:53:12 > 0:53:17The other thing I want to emphasise is that the growth in membership of

0:53:17 > 0:53:23the Labour Party is a good thing. It is something that I welcome and then

0:53:23 > 0:53:27I think Anas welcomes, too.We have established that no matter what the

0:53:27 > 0:53:34result is, both of you will accept it. That is the case, right?Of

0:53:34 > 0:53:39course. I want us to welcome all members. And any suggestions that

0:53:39 > 0:53:46somehow we should racially profiled the membership, I want people who

0:53:46 > 0:53:50trade unionists, not trade unionists...But you're not

0:53:50 > 0:53:54suggesting...There have been suggestions in the newspaper that

0:53:54 > 0:53:58some people feel their membership has been questioned. I want people

0:53:58 > 0:54:04to be welcome from all communities and every background.You did rather

0:54:04 > 0:54:08better in the general election than perhaps either of you were

0:54:08 > 0:54:13expecting. There is a view, Richard Leonard, that was more to do with

0:54:13 > 0:54:18Jeremy Corbyn than anything to do with anything this Scottish Labour

0:54:18 > 0:54:24Party did. Would you subscribed to that?Largely. We had an opportunity

0:54:24 > 0:54:29during the general election which we messed. To understand that Jeremy

0:54:29 > 0:54:35Corbyn was proven to be a principled and popular leader. And that the

0:54:35 > 0:54:38manifesto we stood on which was a radical manifesto which offered

0:54:38 > 0:54:42people a vision of a different kind of society, was a hopeful vision,

0:54:42 > 0:54:48was winning support amongst people. Within the debate inside Scotland,

0:54:48 > 0:54:53we simply smoke about this Scottish constitutional question.I want to

0:54:53 > 0:54:58ask Anas, one of the criticisms of view is that you were only a year

0:54:58 > 0:55:02ago in favour of turfing Jeremy Corbyn out from the leadership of

0:55:02 > 0:55:07the Labour Party. People say how can you be a leader that represents the

0:55:07 > 0:55:10carbon Labour Party that seems to be making inroads for Labour in

0:55:10 > 0:55:17Scotland? -- Jeremy Corbyn.I wanted him to be Prime Minister. I want

0:55:17 > 0:55:22Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister, but that is not just the only job of

0:55:22 > 0:55:27a Scottish leader. We do energise between the many not the few

0:55:27 > 0:55:32manifesto. He made people believe again that we can return a Labour

0:55:32 > 0:55:35government. Let's be honest about that result in June, we did not win.

0:55:35 > 0:55:42We got thrashed, particularly in Scotland. We did make gains, but at

0:55:42 > 0:55:47the same time the Tories ran the worst campaign in living memory and

0:55:47 > 0:55:52needed 300,000 votes in Scotland. We can only deliver a UK Labour

0:55:52 > 0:55:54government and Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister if we have an

0:55:54 > 0:56:00effective Labour Party in Scotland. The other side of this is, Richard

0:56:00 > 0:56:07Leonard, this Richard Leonard, he says he is more ensuring with the

0:56:07 > 0:56:13carbon Labour Party. In what way are you more radical than Anna Sarwar?

0:56:13 > 0:56:19-- Jeremy Corbyn Labour Party.I am in favour of an extension of public

0:56:19 > 0:56:26ownership. I am in favour of an industrial strategy in which the

0:56:26 > 0:56:31role of the government is to plan more in the in the economy, rather

0:56:31 > 0:56:36than relying on market forces. I am in favour of longer term action to

0:56:36 > 0:56:43end poverty and doing inequality. Nor nods from -- more modern nods

0:56:43 > 0:56:49from Anas.I do not think we can have an approach to social security

0:56:49 > 0:56:52which is predicated on the continuation of a low value Scottish

0:56:52 > 0:56:57economy. Do you think he does? I have somebody who has campaigned for

0:56:57 > 0:57:03and worked for decent conditions for people in my entire adult political

0:57:03 > 0:57:09life.You have not told me one radical policy that you have that

0:57:09 > 0:57:13Anna Sarwar does not support.I support the right of working people

0:57:13 > 0:57:18to buy an enterprise they working, if it is put Brazil, are facing

0:57:18 > 0:57:26closure. -- Anas Sarwar.I have some radical policies that Richard does

0:57:26 > 0:57:36not agree with, the Scottish Child tax credit to remove more children

0:57:36 > 0:57:42out of poverty.

0:57:42 > 0:57:47out of poverty. 300,000 jobs are directly linked to membership of the

0:57:47 > 0:57:53single market and the customs union. I am going to talk about you live in

0:57:53 > 0:57:58a moment. One of the allegations you have not had your moment to seek in

0:57:58 > 0:58:01this campaign, you have given up your shareholding in your family

0:58:01 > 0:58:05firm. What would you say to members watching this and wondering which

0:58:05 > 0:58:08way to vote, you wear a big shareholder in your family firm

0:58:08 > 0:58:15which does not, it does not pay the real living wage in Scotland, but

0:58:15 > 0:58:19does not really recognise trade unions. You had an opportunity to

0:58:19 > 0:58:24influence that firm to recognise trade unions. So if you did not do

0:58:24 > 0:58:28that as a shareholder, why should we take seriously what you are saying

0:58:28 > 0:58:32no, wanting to promote trade unions and society more widely?I am glad

0:58:32 > 0:58:37you have asked that question. The reality is that there are trade

0:58:37 > 0:58:43union members within the workforce, what we are talking about here is a

0:58:43 > 0:58:48formal trade union recognition. There is no formal trade union

0:58:48 > 0:58:55recognition in that workplace. But I did not take that company's word for

0:58:55 > 0:58:59it. I spoke to the trade union directly and they also told me that

0:58:59 > 0:59:05they had not read Quested recognition agreement.Hang on a

0:59:05 > 0:59:11second, you are saying there is no formal trade union recognition in

0:59:11 > 0:59:16which you are a major shareholder. What I am saying is when I spoke to

0:59:16 > 0:59:19the trade union, they said they had a good relationship with the

0:59:19 > 0:59:27company. And I want to support further trade union...Your children

0:59:27 > 0:59:33go to private school. Pat Rafferty of the Unite trade union, said how

0:59:33 > 0:59:38good to skate -- state schools in Scotland have two B before Anas

0:59:38 > 0:59:42Sarwar will put his children in those schools?He attacked may

0:59:42 > 0:59:46saying that I am trying to break up the Labour Party and not demonstrate

0:59:46 > 0:59:51unity when he did that very thing. If he thinks attacking my children

0:59:51 > 0:59:56on the platform of a conference, I do not think that is acceptable.

0:59:56 > 0:59:59People are not attacking your children.He is politicising my

0:59:59 > 1:00:05children for his own purposes.It is a choice you are entitled as a

1:00:05 > 1:00:09citizen to make. But not as leader of the Labour Party.The point I

1:00:09 > 1:00:14make is this, that is a decision for myself and my way to make. That is

1:00:14 > 1:00:19the decision we made as a couple and I would hope people would accept her

1:00:19 > 1:00:25decision. The important point is we have 4000 fewer teachers and skills

1:00:25 > 1:00:32because of the SNP.We are running out of time. -- in our schools.

1:00:32 > 1:00:36Richard Leonard, do you have a problem with our staff. Anna Sarwar

1:00:36 > 1:00:39is a long-standing member of the Labour Party, he is someone who

1:00:39 > 1:00:45comes from a wealthy family so he does not have an -- to be in the

1:00:45 > 1:00:54position he is in. -- Anas Sarwar.I am an NHS dentist by profession.Why

1:00:54 > 1:01:01shouldn't he do these things?Here we are in the middle of the ballot

1:01:01 > 1:01:05to elect the next leader of the Scottish Labour Party. I would

1:01:05 > 1:01:08rather stand on my own record which is on the straight Scottish trade

1:01:08 > 1:01:20union and Labour... I entered public office to advance the position of

1:01:20 > 1:01:27working people.So when Pat Rafferty says that about Anas Sarwar, one of

1:01:27 > 1:01:32your most prominent supporters, what would you say to Pat Rafferty, that

1:01:32 > 1:01:37is not reasonable?Pat Rafferty has a mandate from his membership and

1:01:37 > 1:01:45will be accountable to his membership. He is not accountable to

1:01:45 > 1:01:50me, is he?But you would be entitled as leader of the Scottish Labour

1:01:50 > 1:01:54Party to make a comment on it.He offered his own view to his

1:01:54 > 1:01:58membership about some of the tests that they think should apply in

1:01:58 > 1:02:02considering who they should fought for in the ballot.What's Anas

1:02:02 > 1:02:06Sarwar is saying it is not reasonable to question where he

1:02:06 > 1:02:10decides to send his children to school. Pat Rafferty is done that. I

1:02:10 > 1:02:17am asking you to say, I agree with Pat Rafferty or not on saying that.

1:02:17 > 1:02:22I do not know of that is an answer. Europe. You have made the big thing

1:02:22 > 1:02:26about how we should stay in the single market. We cannot stay in the

1:02:26 > 1:02:31single market because it is not Labour Party policy.I have

1:02:31 > 1:02:39discussed this with Keir Starmer. It is not policy to support the single

1:02:39 > 1:02:43market. The point I am making is I am not waiting for permission to see

1:02:43 > 1:02:49what I think is in the best interest of Scotland or the UK. No one voted

1:02:49 > 1:02:55to lose their job, no one voted to make themselves poorer, no one voted

1:02:55 > 1:02:58for a turbo-charged austerity, if you are genuine about protecting

1:02:58 > 1:03:05jobs and trade... You can only do that with permanent membership of

1:03:05 > 1:03:09the single market.The point would be against you which is that, look,

1:03:09 > 1:03:13it may be that the Labour Party is again staying in the single market,

1:03:13 > 1:03:17but people in Scotland voted to stay in Europe. You make a lot of the

1:03:17 > 1:03:23thing about being the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, is it not

1:03:23 > 1:03:29better for them to have Anas Sarwar's position.It is about

1:03:29 > 1:03:35access to the single market without a barrier, without tariff barrier in

1:03:35 > 1:03:40particular. That is something I fully support. I support the defence

1:03:40 > 1:03:45of equal rights, I support the need to protect jobs and defend the

1:03:45 > 1:03:51Scottish economy. And I believe there are ways of doing that without

1:03:51 > 1:04:00necessarily having membership of the single market.

1:04:00 > 1:04:04single market.We will have to leave it there. Thank you both very much

1:04:04 > 1:04:06indeed. Thank you for joining us this morning.

1:04:06 > 1:04:08A former adviser to Donald Trump has suggested the US President

1:04:08 > 1:04:10could support Scottish independence in a future referendum,

1:04:10 > 1:04:12but only if it makes economic sense.

1:04:12 > 1:04:14Sebastian Gorka, who worked in the White House until August,

1:04:14 > 1:04:16told BBC Scotland that the President was a "pragmatist".

1:04:16 > 1:04:26Our political correspondent, Glenn Campbell, has more.

1:04:26 > 1:04:30America first. Donald Trump made this promise to the American people

1:04:30 > 1:04:35on the day he took office. Earlier, during the election campaign in

1:04:35 > 1:04:39Scotland, he also endorsed Brexit. People want to see borders. They

1:04:39 > 1:04:42don't necessarily want people pouring into their country. That

1:04:42 > 1:04:46they do not know who they are and where they come from, they have no

1:04:46 > 1:04:53idea. I think not only did it win, but it won buy a bigger margin.What

1:04:53 > 1:04:58is behind the President's thinking. Everything the president does is win

1:04:58 > 1:05:01by one word, sovereignty. He believed nations streets prosper

1:05:01 > 1:05:06when they are sovereign. And if you have a cultural connection, if you

1:05:06 > 1:05:10are part of the Judeo Christian civilisation, whether you are Poland

1:05:10 > 1:05:15or the UK or the Scottish nation, we have connections to. We would like

1:05:15 > 1:05:22you to thrive.If we thrive, you thrive. If Donald Trump is so keen

1:05:22 > 1:05:25on sovereignty, mighty back independence for Scotland in a

1:05:25 > 1:05:29future referendum?You have to look at the nickel and dime at the end of

1:05:29 > 1:05:34the way. Does that economic clay make sense. Is there a future that

1:05:34 > 1:05:38is connected to devolution. He is a pride to most. He is a patriot. This

1:05:38 > 1:05:42is a man who left behind billions and went into an arena where he

1:05:42 > 1:05:49would be attacked. His ten-year-old son would be attacked by the media.

1:05:49 > 1:05:53He did not need to do this. So if it makes sense pragmatically, why would

1:05:53 > 1:05:58he not support it. I would not say he is there, but he is somebody who

1:05:58 > 1:06:00looks at the reality, not the utopia.

1:06:04 > 1:06:09We obviously have a deep interest in making sure that one of the closest

1:06:09 > 1:06:17allies that we will ever have remains strong, robust, United and

1:06:17 > 1:06:21an effective partner.In 2014, President Obama opposed independence

1:06:21 > 1:06:27that he was not alone.I would say I hope it doesn't happen. I do not

1:06:27 > 1:06:30have a vote in Scotland, but I hope it doesn't happen.But at that time,

1:06:30 > 1:06:39Donald Trump was more cautious writing...

1:06:39 > 1:06:44writing...Three, two, one.More recently, you said independence

1:06:44 > 1:06:47would be terrible because in his view Scotland might lose hosting

1:06:47 > 1:06:56rights for the apple mac open golf tournament. He questions the value

1:06:56 > 1:07:01of his backing.He was hedging his bets before the referendum, though

1:07:01 > 1:07:06once the decision had been made in 2014, you moved to an opposition

1:07:06 > 1:07:12attitude to independence.Is it time to kiss and make up?The cause of

1:07:12 > 1:07:16independence depends on many things. It depends on having a vision of the

1:07:16 > 1:07:19future where you look at how Scotland is governed and how the

1:07:19 > 1:07:26world is governed in a positive and progressive way. I cannot feel that

1:07:26 > 1:07:29Donald Trump would do anything other than damage that vision by

1:07:29 > 1:07:34association, so I think our relationship with Donald Trump is

1:07:34 > 1:07:40the one we have right now.Donald Trump seems much closer to UK

1:07:40 > 1:07:45nationalists than those that want Scotland to be an independent state.

1:07:45 > 1:07:49Thank you. Good evening, Mississippi.

1:07:49 > 1:07:51And our political correspondent Glenn Campbell has been looking

1:07:51 > 1:07:53into the relationship between the President and Scotland

1:07:53 > 1:07:56in the documentary Donald Trump: Scotland's President, which will be

1:07:56 > 1:07:59broadcast on Thursday at 9pm on BBC One Scotland.

1:07:59 > 1:08:04Now, it's time to take a look at the week ahead.

1:08:11 > 1:08:14This week I'm joined by journalist Kathleen Nutt and Scotland Editor

1:08:14 > 1:08:17for The Guardian, Severin Carrell.

1:08:17 > 1:08:24Kathleen, a string of allegations now in Holyrood and Westminster.

1:08:24 > 1:08:31Where do we go from here?

1:08:31 > 1:08:33Where do we go from here?Gosh, it is very difficult, I think the

1:08:33 > 1:08:37parties are going to have to get on top of this, I think Richard

1:08:37 > 1:08:43Leonard's suggestion of an independent body set up, a group set

1:08:43 > 1:08:49up for women of the party to investigate women to take their

1:08:49 > 1:08:54complaints to be investigated. Monica Lennon's claim today work

1:08:54 > 1:08:59completely shocking, shocking that they happened and they were

1:08:59 > 1:09:03trivialised and shocking she felt she could not report them.And she's

1:09:03 > 1:09:07not the only person in the Labour Party to have similar allegations,

1:09:07 > 1:09:12that there is a culture where you were basically laughed that if you

1:09:12 > 1:09:20mentioned this.What Monica was referring to was a wider issue in

1:09:20 > 1:09:26other parties as well, by the nature of power and how hierarchies and how

1:09:26 > 1:09:29women feel they are marginalised when it comes to challenging those

1:09:29 > 1:09:36kinds of privileges and powers. I am not sure Richard's proposal would be

1:09:36 > 1:09:38a Scottish Labour exercise appropriate for labour as I

1:09:38 > 1:09:44suspected something cultural throughout the party, UK level also.

1:09:44 > 1:09:49An obvious thing would be to take up Richard Leonard's proposal, but for

1:09:49 > 1:09:54all the party. Maybe not a Parliamentary thing, but maybe each

1:09:54 > 1:10:00party do that, and he says that can be done UK level as well.When I

1:10:00 > 1:10:05spoke to Monica Lennon she was suggesting Holyrood should set up an

1:10:05 > 1:10:10investigation to find out what the extent of this problem is in the

1:10:10 > 1:10:14Scottish Parliament and I think there is also going to be questions

1:10:14 > 1:10:22this week about the male dominance of some of the key organisations and

1:10:22 > 1:10:27groups in Holyrood, for example the corporate body which runs Holyrood,

1:10:27 > 1:10:30which at the moment is totally dominated by men.It does not

1:10:30 > 1:10:34surprise you that this should this be such a problem given this has

1:10:34 > 1:10:43been talked about? What is odd about this is that, it is not art, it is

1:10:43 > 1:10:47disappointing, but it has come to light because of something happening

1:10:47 > 1:10:57in LA.I'm not surprised. It is endemic in society and did not

1:10:57 > 1:11:03surprising that it it is in all workplaces including the Holyrood. I

1:11:03 > 1:11:08think women have been emboldened by the Harvey Weinstein allegation,

1:11:08 > 1:11:13they feel they can come forward and they will be listened to, that

1:11:13 > 1:11:18people are taking these claims seriously.But will they? Well

1:11:18 > 1:11:22something fundamental change this time? Because we have been here

1:11:22 > 1:11:26before and if one said, this is a serious problem and the culture has

1:11:26 > 1:11:31to change. Clearly it hasn't.I think this is a watershed moment

1:11:31 > 1:11:36where there is a point where the power is being reversed because many

1:11:36 > 1:11:42women have got the courage to come forward and speak openly now. There

1:11:42 > 1:11:46is a critical mass that has built up behind this and the Harvey Weinstein

1:11:46 > 1:11:50business was a trigger for that. That is symptomatic of all great

1:11:50 > 1:11:53scandals, all great scandals by definition will simply blow up

1:11:53 > 1:11:59because there is the build-up like a volcano of so much pressure which

1:11:59 > 1:12:06needs a way to vent itself. With the question in Scotland, one of the

1:12:06 > 1:12:12problems I have about Richard Leonard's proposition is all the

1:12:12 > 1:12:16parties are going to behave equally openly and one of the striking

1:12:16 > 1:12:21things of the children's minister's resignation is he was imposed to

1:12:21 > 1:12:26five days even be they knew there were allegations against him and it

1:12:26 > 1:12:31has taken five days for action. Other parties, as soon as there was

1:12:31 > 1:12:35allegations against a member of the party, but person is suspended and

1:12:35 > 1:12:42the SNP are behaving differently from the other parties. I think the

1:12:42 > 1:12:48Tory problem is even worse because it is quite clearly evident there is

1:12:48 > 1:12:51information known to the hierarchy that has not been acted on for a

1:12:51 > 1:12:55long period of time.We are almost out of time. I was looking forward

1:12:55 > 1:13:00to asking about your thoughts on the debate between the possible future

1:13:00 > 1:13:06Labour leaders.It will be interesting to see when the new

1:13:06 > 1:13:12leader is announced on the 18th if they can have some sort of

1:13:12 > 1:13:17re-conciliation and move forward. I think it will be difficult.We

1:13:17 > 1:13:22have...Whether the two camps can carry on their internal feuding is

1:13:22 > 1:13:30another matter.I think they will,...They will continue feuding?

1:13:30 > 1:13:34I think they will settle this and move on. There have been animosity

1:13:34 > 1:13:39is bubbling under the surface, but actually the party's crisis is

1:13:39 > 1:13:46deeper whether they agree on party policy.Thank you both very much

1:13:46 > 1:13:47indeed.