0:00:36 > 0:00:38Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43And this is your essential briefing on everything that's
0:00:43 > 0:00:46happening this Sunday morning in the world of politics.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Ireland says it will "continue to play tough until the end"
0:00:49 > 0:00:50over the Irish border.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52As Dublin threatens to derail Brexit trade
0:00:52 > 0:00:56talks, vice-president of the European Parliament Mairead
0:00:56 > 0:00:59McGuiness tells us why she thinks a hard border would cause havoc.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Leading Brexiteer and former Northern Ireland Secretary Owen
0:01:01 > 0:01:06Paterson will debate with her live.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09It was billed as a make or break moment for the Chancellor -
0:01:09 > 0:01:11Phillip Hammond appears to have avoided an omni or even
0:01:11 > 0:01:12a mini-shambles.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15We'll get Budget reaction from the man who last month tried
0:01:15 > 0:01:18to topple Theresa May - former Tory Chairman, Grant Shapps.
0:01:19 > 0:01:26And what did the Chancellor do for the North?
0:01:26 > 0:01:28How affects it was Labour's response?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31And on Sunday Politics Scotland -
0:01:31 > 0:01:34resignation, special leave and senior officers
0:01:34 > 0:01:42being being investigated for crime and misconduct I'll ask
0:01:43 > 0:01:45For more information at 1135.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50So, no omni-shambles Budget.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53But don't worry, if you're a fan of the shambolic you'll
0:01:53 > 0:01:55love our political panel, Sam Coates, Zoe Williams
0:01:55 > 0:01:57and Iain Martin.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59Welcome to the programme.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02It has been the Budget that's dominated the political week.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06There was no pasty tax or national insurance U-turn -
0:02:06 > 0:02:08but there were sharp downgrades for growth and productivity,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12offset by enough optimism to cheer the Tory benches.
0:02:16 > 0:02:21This week's Budget was billed as a make or break for Philip Hammond.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24His last effort in March contained a manifesto-mangling national
0:02:24 > 0:02:27insurance rise which lasted barely a week.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Humiliated today, Chancellor?
0:02:29 > 0:02:32Will you resign?
0:02:34 > 0:02:36This time, his cheery demeanour was perhaps designed
0:02:36 > 0:02:38to confound his critics who think his outlook on Brexit
0:02:38 > 0:02:42is, well, miserable.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46What he's doing is very close to sabotage.
0:02:46 > 0:02:51Regrettably, our productivity performance continues to disappoint.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53But the downbeat tone wasn't down to Hammond,
0:02:53 > 0:02:59it was the independent Office for Budget Responsibility,
0:02:59 > 0:03:01the lower productivity projections lead to growth forecasts
0:03:01 > 0:03:03of less than 2%.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Here's the new realistic forecast, average growth of just 1.4% a year.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11A slowdown that won't go away.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16The Chancellor may not have been able to drive up
0:03:16 > 0:03:19productivity and growth, but he has a cunning plan to remove
0:03:19 > 0:03:22the need to drive at all.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24David Cameron's old mate Jeremy Clarkson is reported to be
0:03:24 > 0:03:26less than impressed.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28Jeremy Clarkson doesn't like them.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32But there are many other good reasons to pursue this technology.
0:03:32 > 0:03:38So today we step up our support for it.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Sorry, Jeremy, but definitely not the first time you've been
0:03:41 > 0:03:43snubbed by Hammond and May.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45More money for the English health service, a Brexit fund
0:03:45 > 0:03:47and abolishing stamp duty for first-time buyers
0:03:47 > 0:03:48lifted the mood.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52I commend this statement to the house.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01But senior figures in the NHS said the new money was not enough
0:04:01 > 0:04:04and less, in this Budget at least, than the amount pledged for Brexit,
0:04:04 > 0:04:06giving some Remainers plenty of fun on Twitter.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11It turned out the stamp duty changes would mainly help
0:04:11 > 0:04:14people selling a house, not buying them.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18Tweaks to the Universal Credit system soothed Tory concerns,
0:04:18 > 0:04:20but they didn't calm the Labour leader.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22Uncaring!
0:04:22 > 0:04:26The uncaring, uncooth attitude of certain members opposite!
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Order!
0:04:29 > 0:04:30Order!
0:04:31 > 0:04:34And his Shadow Chancellor had some number trouble.
0:04:34 > 0:04:39How much do we now spend on paying the interest of our national debt.
0:04:39 > 0:04:40A lot.
0:04:40 > 0:04:41How much?
0:04:41 > 0:04:42Well, I'll give you the figure.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I'll send you a note on the figure.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45You don't know?
0:04:45 > 0:04:46I know the figure...
0:04:46 > 0:04:47How much?
0:04:47 > 0:04:48I'll send it.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Well, you tell me now.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53The forecast may be sticky, but at least the Daily Mail
0:04:53 > 0:04:55had a positive outlook.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58Phil was no longer a miserable donkey.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01And by the end of the week, the Chancellor could still smile.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04He might even stay in Number 11 long enough to deliver
0:05:04 > 0:05:07next year's Budget.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11We're joined now by the former Conservative Party
0:05:11 > 0:05:15Chairman, Grant Shapps.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19Thank you very much for coming in. No banana skin in the Budget for
0:05:19 > 0:05:23Philip Hammond, but really dismal growth prospects. What is the
0:05:23 > 0:05:27government back to doing wrong? Well, first of all, he cheered up
0:05:27 > 0:05:31the backbenches by giving quite an upbeat assessment. The economy is
0:05:31 > 0:05:38still growing, the jobs factory of Europe. Not words we are used to
0:05:38 > 0:05:42hearing from Philip Hammond.But overall, growth prospects are really
0:05:42 > 0:05:49bad, they have been significantly downgraded.Of course, the really
0:05:49 > 0:05:52big story is the Office for Budget Responsibility say we are going to
0:05:52 > 0:05:56grow at 1.5%, not 2%. That is a real problem. I thought Philip's
0:05:56 > 0:05:59presentation of the issue was interesting. He said this is of the
0:05:59 > 0:06:03outside of our control, it is the office of Budget response ability.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07It is to do with productivity, who knows what that is made up of? That
0:06:07 > 0:06:11sort of excuses get mug from having to do anything. There are things we
0:06:11 > 0:06:15can do to attract business to this country. You have the tax base, the
0:06:15 > 0:06:20attitude towards business. We spent quite a while looking like we were
0:06:20 > 0:06:25not interested in business, business being thought of as bad. I am
0:06:25 > 0:06:29pleased to see that is changing.You think the few has a pro-business
0:06:29 > 0:06:33attitude that wasn't there a year ago?We have them locked out of
0:06:33 > 0:06:37Downing Street for a while, sector leaders could not express their
0:06:37 > 0:06:42concerns. Some conference speeches that business as the bad guys rather
0:06:42 > 0:06:46than job creators. That seems to have gone and I welcome it.Why?
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Because it is not realistic to believe that business is evil and
0:06:50 > 0:06:57bad. Business people that create the jobs for this country, the well for
0:06:57 > 0:07:00this country...But why do you think the government but robust change the
0:07:00 > 0:07:07message on that?It is hard to know what created that. Since the
0:07:07 > 0:07:10election we have a change in emphasis. Business leaders are now
0:07:10 > 0:07:13welcomed to come and talk to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor
0:07:13 > 0:07:17about what is going on. One thing we could do now, we are leaving Europe,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20we had all of those red tape challenges in the Coalition
0:07:20 > 0:07:23Government but we always got stuck when it got to the EU. We had to
0:07:23 > 0:07:27say, we can't do anything about that red tape. We can now go back on
0:07:27 > 0:07:31that. I would like the cupboard to go further and not just accept
0:07:31 > 0:07:33figures from the Office for Budget Responsibility. I'm actually
0:07:33 > 0:07:38doubtful about that and I think that Philip Hammond is as well. Growth of
0:07:38 > 0:07:46productivity is a difficult thing to measure. This country trades more
0:07:46 > 0:07:49online than any other country in the world. We are top of that league
0:07:49 > 0:07:52table. That has to be a more efficient way to do business. Yet it
0:07:52 > 0:07:57does not seem to be reflected in productivity.They are forecasts,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01the productivity figures. But the middle, things could be worse, the
0:08:01 > 0:08:07OBR say. The... Seems to say these are the projections, we hope it
0:08:07 > 0:08:13isn't that. Is it the Buttler's job to do something about productivity?
0:08:13 > 0:08:20The government EU has a role to play. I started a printing business
0:08:20 > 0:08:23which still exists to this day. Uncertainty over Brexit could lead a
0:08:23 > 0:08:28business like that to delay purchasing a new press. One that is
0:08:28 > 0:08:33likely to be faster, less setup time, print stuff faster.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37Uncertainty in the economy slows that down. Of course the Government
0:08:37 > 0:08:44has a role. It cannot act the way it treats taxation, investment, it can
0:08:44 > 0:08:47encourage businesses. Actually, I suspect what the Office for Budget
0:08:47 > 0:08:52Responsibility has done is said, oh, all of this uncertainty has lead to
0:08:52 > 0:08:56slower productivity and therefore we will continue projecting forward,
0:08:56 > 0:09:01almost ad infinitum. The projections went up five years. If we can get
0:09:01 > 0:09:06the Brexit uncertainty out of the way...That is what I was about to
0:09:06 > 0:09:10say. The great uncertainty is under Brexit. We are not entering a period
0:09:10 > 0:09:13where things will be more certain people can confidently make
0:09:13 > 0:09:16investment decisions, nobody knows what the future trading relationship
0:09:16 > 0:09:21will be.I think Government can help with that. If you have a Government
0:09:21 > 0:09:24that, at its heart, fundamentally, is singing from the same hymn sheet,
0:09:24 > 0:09:29you saw Number 10 and Number 11, finally, a bit of banter between the
0:09:29 > 0:09:39two of them, the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, they went out on
0:09:39 > 0:09:42Thursday and did a visit together. You have a Cabinet meeting reported
0:09:42 > 0:09:44from Tuesday where they are agreeing how to go forward collectively on
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Europe. If you can have the central government working in unison, it
0:09:46 > 0:09:49gives business of evidence, it gives the economy confidence that maybe
0:09:49 > 0:09:53you can get to faster growth by having better productivity and more
0:09:53 > 0:09:56inward investment.Six weeks ago you were calling for the Prime Minister
0:09:56 > 0:10:02to stand down. You were outed as leading a coup against her. Have you
0:10:02 > 0:10:06changed your mind?I saw your lead-in, calling colleagues that
0:10:06 > 0:10:09want to go and speak to the Prime Minister about a perfectly sensible
0:10:09 > 0:10:13subject that she herself has asked for colleagues' opinions on, how
0:10:13 > 0:10:18long should I be in this role, to call it a plot is tabloid. The
0:10:18 > 0:10:21reality is, of course colleagues should be able to have that
0:10:21 > 0:10:24conversation. We do not live in North Korea. We shouldn't be not
0:10:24 > 0:10:27allowed to express views, nor do they disappear if you don't express
0:10:27 > 0:10:31them.You said your colleagues have buried their heads in the sand,
0:10:31 > 0:10:36hoping things would get better. It never got better for Gordon Brown or
0:10:36 > 0:10:41John Major, it will not get that for Theresa May. Have you changed your
0:10:41 > 0:10:44mindI think that colleagues should be allowed to have views and express
0:10:44 > 0:10:49them. My views have not changed. However, I also accept the reality
0:10:49 > 0:10:54of the situation, that we are in a very sensitive period with Brexit
0:10:54 > 0:11:00negotiations. Six weeks ago is six weeks ago. Time moves on and Brexit
0:11:00 > 0:11:05negotiations wait 101. What we have to do have is a Government that is
0:11:05 > 0:11:12capable of singing from the same hymn sheet, going to Brussels. If
0:11:12 > 0:11:16you have Number 10 and Number 11 at each other's throats, when you have
0:11:16 > 0:11:23people been briefed against the centre, whips that are more
0:11:23 > 0:11:26interested in... We have mutineers on the front of the Telegraph, 50
0:11:26 > 0:11:30people that wanted not to have the date for Brexit in the bill. I don't
0:11:30 > 0:11:35happen to agree with those people. But to have colleagues accused of
0:11:35 > 0:11:38being mutineers because they have a slightly diverted the view is
0:11:38 > 0:11:47ridiculous. -- diverted view. I am pleased what we are seeing now is an
0:11:47 > 0:11:52attitude from the centre saying let's work together, let's not
0:11:52 > 0:11:56briefed against others, let's get on and stop the country from the even
0:11:56 > 0:12:00bigger danger than Brexit, a Jeremy Corbyn government.Stay there for a
0:12:00 > 0:12:07moment. I am going to bring in the panel. You were listening to that
0:12:07 > 0:12:13interview. A change in mood towards the Prime Minister?Haven't seems to
0:12:13 > 0:12:18have cheered up a lot. He seemed to me like a man giving his own leaving
0:12:18 > 0:12:26speech. There was a devil may care attitude aspect, not really backed
0:12:26 > 0:12:30up by what you're saying. They wanted always. There would be OBR
0:12:30 > 0:12:33figures to be nothing to do with a Government. Unfortunately they have
0:12:33 > 0:12:38revised down, there is nothing we can really do. At the same time,
0:12:38 > 0:12:43they wanted to show Conservative policies are capable of driving
0:12:43 > 0:12:46growth. They want to say, unfortunately it is not a generous
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Budget because growth figures are revised downwards, while at the same
0:12:50 > 0:12:53time saying that the OBR is often wrong, who knows if it will be
0:12:53 > 0:13:01correct. I don't think you get any clear analysis from this.Cake and
0:13:01 > 0:13:10eat it?The significance is not really economic, it is political. If
0:13:10 > 0:13:14you go back a week, it seemed possible, likely even, that the
0:13:14 > 0:13:20Chancellor was going to be replaced in a reshuffle expected between now
0:13:20 > 0:13:26and Christmas. He has saved his job. His critics in other parties will
0:13:26 > 0:13:31say, well, his job should be about more than his own personal survival.
0:13:31 > 0:13:37But it alters the dynamics. It means that the government but was not
0:13:37 > 0:13:43quite Chancellor, it means a reshuffle could be less substantial
0:13:43 > 0:13:47than might have been the case. It seems the Tories have had a shocking
0:13:47 > 0:13:53run over the last few months. They were rather buoyed up by it. Not
0:13:53 > 0:13:56that it was a massive success as a Budget, it was just OK. That counts
0:13:56 > 0:14:00for quite a lot at the moment. Listening to what Grant Shapps was
0:14:00 > 0:14:05telling us, it sounds like Theresa May's job is safe as well?I would
0:14:05 > 0:14:10if she is sitting in Downing Street wearing a badge saying Philip
0:14:10 > 0:14:16Hammond saved my job? The point is, just to pull out the camera, the
0:14:16 > 0:14:19fundamentals have not changed. The Conservatives did not win an overall
0:14:19 > 0:14:22majority at the election, they still have to deliver Brexit in an
0:14:22 > 0:14:29incredibly complicated process, that looks intractable with negotiation
0:14:29 > 0:14:31difficulties, particularly with Ireland, but also bringing the
0:14:31 > 0:14:34Cabinet together over some of these incredibly thorny issues about where
0:14:34 > 0:14:44Brexit is going to end up. Although Grant is putting a positive gloss on
0:14:44 > 0:14:47it now, the conference after which he was adjusted people might
0:14:47 > 0:14:53consider her going -- after which he suggested people might consider her
0:14:53 > 0:14:56going, things have not really changed. He says his view has not
0:14:56 > 0:15:01really changed, and I think that many of the people that Grant talks
0:15:01 > 0:15:04to, they have not changed their fundamental view about the talents
0:15:04 > 0:15:07and otherwise of Theresa May. I wonder how many people think what
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Grant thinks at the moment?We will come back to you and ask you that.
0:15:11 > 0:15:16How many people agree with you? Do you still have the same view about
0:15:16 > 0:15:19the Prime Minister?I have said exactly what I think. You don't have
0:15:19 > 0:15:24to second-guess what I think about all of this. Nor do I think it is
0:15:24 > 0:15:30worth day by day giving a running commentary on that. I was heartened
0:15:30 > 0:15:33to see Number 10 and number 11 working together. We can make some
0:15:33 > 0:15:38progress. I think that is a very good thing. The lesson to be
0:15:38 > 0:15:40learned, just because people have diverse views, it has not been there
0:15:40 > 0:15:44should be vilified. I think we were in danger of doing that through the
0:15:44 > 0:15:48whips or Number 10, or what have you. I'm pleased to see we have a
0:15:48 > 0:15:54more mature attitude coming from Downing Street.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58You once said you thought you would make a good Prime Minister yourself,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01do you still think that?The question was do you have the
0:16:01 > 0:16:06required ability to make these decisions and the rest of it. To
0:16:06 > 0:16:09answer that question would be as if to say I don't think she should be
0:16:09 > 0:16:15doing it but that's not what I think at all. I think this country
0:16:15 > 0:16:18requires leadership which unites particularly those involved in the
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Government and I'm pleased that's what we are now starting to get.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Grant Shapps, thanks for coming to talk to us today.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Now, the Northern Powerhouse was a phrase coined
0:16:29 > 0:16:31by Philip Hammond's predecessor, George Osborne.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33But Theresa May has insisted that she wouldn't be
0:16:33 > 0:16:34pulling the plug on it.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36So how did it fare in this month's Budget?
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Joining us now from Salford is the Mayor
0:16:38 > 0:16:39of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44Thanks for coming in. I assume you must be very pleased with the Budget
0:16:44 > 0:16:48and the amount of money delivered for the Northern Powerhouse?When I
0:16:48 > 0:16:52came into this job I was clear I would never play politics for the
0:16:52 > 0:16:58sake of it. There was good news in this Budget for Manchester, money
0:16:58 > 0:17:04which we need very much, money to help us tackle rough sleeping.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08Again, a big priority for me. But overall I have to say it is pretty
0:17:08 > 0:17:15thin pickings for the north of England. The headline measure on
0:17:15 > 0:17:18stamp duty massively benefits the South over the north and people here
0:17:18 > 0:17:22who are suffering every day on the rail system, our clapped-out rail
0:17:22 > 0:17:28system, they didn't get any good news in terms of electrification or
0:17:28 > 0:17:37improvement of services. All we got was an -- promise of improvement of
0:17:37 > 0:17:43mobile services.The Government is giving new £12 million to help cover
0:17:43 > 0:17:48the cost relating to the Manchester Arena attack. You must be welcoming
0:17:48 > 0:17:52of that too.This is difficult because I'm conscious whenever this
0:17:52 > 0:17:57issue comes up, I'm conscious of the families. We put our bid in some
0:17:57 > 0:18:03time ago. The cost we have incurred so far is 17 million and we have a
0:18:03 > 0:18:07further 11 million we will incur through the inquest process. We have
0:18:07 > 0:18:11been raising that privately and I haven't gone public on this issue
0:18:11 > 0:18:15until the Prime Minister said last week we would have the answer, and
0:18:15 > 0:18:20we got that on Friday. It falls some way short. I cannot see why the
0:18:20 > 0:18:25Government is not meeting our cost in full. As I said at the beginning,
0:18:25 > 0:18:29I would never make politics out of this issue but when we got our
0:18:29 > 0:18:33answer and it wasn't good enough I had to make our position clear. I
0:18:33 > 0:18:36will be replying to the Prime Minister saying let's sort this out
0:18:36 > 0:18:42properly. I just hope we can now get a full agreement for all of our
0:18:42 > 0:18:46costs from the Government.You've accused the Government before of
0:18:46 > 0:18:50being London centric and ignoring other parts of the UK. Given that
0:18:50 > 0:18:57you have welcomed of the spending measures, do you feel that problem
0:18:57 > 0:19:01has been addressed?Definitely not. The country is London centric. The
0:19:01 > 0:19:07way transport investment is assessed by the Treasury favours the areas
0:19:07 > 0:19:10where there is already greater economic growth. The system is
0:19:10 > 0:19:15biased against the north and that needs to change. In the Budget we
0:19:15 > 0:19:19got a half-hearted commitment to the rail system of the future for the
0:19:19 > 0:19:25north of England but Crossrail 2, the project in London, got more of a
0:19:25 > 0:19:31thumbs up. I'm speaking for people here who feel this has been very
0:19:31 > 0:19:35unfair over decades. We have a transport system here that is
0:19:35 > 0:19:39creaking now and it is completely congested, it isn't working for
0:19:39 > 0:19:44people. The Government needs to grip that problem much more directly. The
0:19:44 > 0:19:48problem I guess with this Budget was there's an elephant in the room and
0:19:48 > 0:19:52that is the Brexit Divorce Bill. There was a feeling for me they were
0:19:52 > 0:19:56not committing money our infrastructure cause of this thing
0:19:56 > 0:20:02looming behind. To have no mention of social care, no mention of police
0:20:02 > 0:20:07funding, these were two gaping holes at the heart of this Budget.Surely
0:20:07 > 0:20:13you think they should be making a generous offer for the Brexit
0:20:13 > 0:20:17divorce settlement? You are not advocating that we walk away without
0:20:17 > 0:20:24paying our dues?No, my point was a different one. It looks like the
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Government is holding back on the investment the north of England
0:20:27 > 0:20:31needs until they have settled this question, but the challenges facing
0:20:31 > 0:20:34our public services and the productivity challenge facing the
0:20:34 > 0:20:38north is urgent and it is critical we get that investment so we can
0:20:38 > 0:20:44rise to the challenge of exit. I saw this as a Budget where the
0:20:44 > 0:20:50Chancellor was holding back. This year of all years, to have no
0:20:50 > 0:20:53mention of police security counterterrorism in the Budget
0:20:53 > 0:20:57seemed a monumental mistake. The police service here has not got much
0:20:57 > 0:21:04left to give. It is down to the bare minimum and we need to see the
0:21:04 > 0:21:07Chancellor bringing forward new funding for the police in the
0:21:07 > 0:21:12December settlement that it's about to get. To have no mention of it
0:21:12 > 0:21:17just seemed to me to be a major mistake.What did you make of Jeremy
0:21:17 > 0:21:25Corbyn's response to the Budget?I thought it was passionate. I don't
0:21:25 > 0:21:30think they will deal with the issue of Universal Credit.It was
0:21:30 > 0:21:35passionate but was it effective?I think so. People want to see people
0:21:35 > 0:21:40speaking with that level of commitment, genuine concern. The
0:21:40 > 0:21:44dangers are still there with Universal Credit. Tinkering with the
0:21:44 > 0:21:47waiting times I don't think will take away the problem that it could
0:21:47 > 0:21:52put more people on our streets, huddled in doorways. The Government
0:21:52 > 0:21:55put more people on our streets, needs to give a clear commitment
0:21:55 > 0:21:58that we won't see people spiralling into debt and then at the risk of
0:21:58 > 0:22:04being homeless as a result of Universal Credit roll out.The day
0:22:04 > 0:22:09after the Budget John McDonnell got in a muddle over his figures on debt
0:22:09 > 0:22:14repayment. He must -- you must have been cringing as you watched some of
0:22:14 > 0:22:20those interviews.You always get these interviews after the Budget. I
0:22:20 > 0:22:24have sat in those positions and I think it is partly what turns people
0:22:24 > 0:22:28off politics. I'm not here necessarily to speak for the front
0:22:28 > 0:22:33bench, I thought they mounted a good critique of the Budget. What I want
0:22:33 > 0:22:36is a more wholehearted embrace of devolution from both political
0:22:36 > 0:22:42parties. The challenge the country is facing right now is that we are
0:22:42 > 0:22:45to London centric, Brexit is looming, we need investment in the
0:22:45 > 0:22:49regions and I don't think we can bring this power back from Brussels
0:22:49 > 0:22:55and then keep it all in Westminster. We are already in overcentralised
0:22:55 > 0:22:58country and its crucial the power is passed down to places like Greater
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Manchester and I want to see both parties embracing that is part of
0:23:01 > 0:23:07the response to the referendum.I'm not asking you to speak for the
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Labour front bench, but how did it look to you when they were
0:23:11 > 0:23:16responding to it, you will know Labour are trailing in the polls on
0:23:16 > 0:23:19economic competence - did they do enough this week to adjust people's
0:23:19 > 0:23:24view as to whether or not Labour should be put in charge of the
0:23:24 > 0:23:27economy?That is the challenge that the Labour Party has to convince the
0:23:27 > 0:23:33country it can run a stronger economy. The Shadow Chancellor has
0:23:33 > 0:23:36put investment in infrastructure front and centre of what he's saying
0:23:36 > 0:23:41and I think he's absolutely right to do that. The country is crying out
0:23:41 > 0:23:52for that transport system, particularly here in the north that
0:23:52 > 0:23:54will allow us to improve productivity and they are not
0:23:54 > 0:23:56getting that from the current Chancellor. Looming questions about
0:23:56 > 0:23:58the Divorce Bill, so therefore he won't commit to the investment now.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02What you got from the Shadow Chancellor was a clearer analysis of
0:24:02 > 0:24:07what the country needs, and I think that's what people want to hear.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12Andy Burnham, thank you for coming in to talk to us.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15Last week we had a film from Leave campaigner Gisela Stuart on why
0:24:15 > 0:24:17business will continue to prosper across Europe after Brexit.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19This week, London and Dublin have clashed over what will
0:24:19 > 0:24:21happen to the border between Northern Ireland
0:24:21 > 0:24:24and the Irish Republic - something the EU says needs to be
0:24:24 > 0:24:26resolved if Brexit negotiations are to move onto trade next month.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29So today, Irish MEP and vice president of the European
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Parliament, Mairead McGuiness, takes us to the border to explain
0:24:32 > 0:24:38why she thinks Brexit could cause business -
0:24:38 > 0:24:40and the people on the island of Ireland -
0:24:40 > 0:24:42considerable difficulties.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55This is Dundalk in County Louth, a town close to the border
0:24:55 > 0:24:59with Northern Ireland, and close to where I grew up myself.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02Today, I represent the constituency along that 310 mile border.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04With the Brexit negotiations ongoing, people along the border
0:25:04 > 0:25:11are troubled by the uncertainty.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13From Dundalk, you can take a straight road to Northern Ireland
0:25:13 > 0:25:19and there's no stopping.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21At the last count, there are over 300 different road crossings
0:25:21 > 0:25:26between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28The big question is, what will change post-Brexit?
0:25:28 > 0:25:32And what do we have to do to keep the situation as it is today?
0:25:32 > 0:25:35For me, there is only one way, that the United Kingdom stays
0:25:35 > 0:25:40in the customs union.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43But I know the UK are determined not to do that.
0:25:43 > 0:25:44I think the negotiations are struggling.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46Not too far from the border crossing, just south,
0:25:46 > 0:25:48I caught up with beef farmer Jim Murray.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50That's the actual border itself, just ahead.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52The actual border is about half a mile past that.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Today it is frictionless and seamless, and invisible.
0:25:56 > 0:25:57Totally.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59Do think it's going to stay that way after Brexit?
0:25:59 > 0:26:02Well, I hope it will stay like that, because were used to this.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06Well, I hope it will stay like that, because we're used to this.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09I come from a time when I remember that you couldn't actually go down
0:26:09 > 0:26:11that road to access, to do some business
0:26:11 > 0:26:13in the north, because the road was actually blocked.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Have you been reassured by any of the political statements around
0:26:16 > 0:26:17the border in particular, basically saying that things
0:26:17 > 0:26:19will stay as they are?
0:26:19 > 0:26:21I haven't, really, because seamless and frictionless borders, you know,
0:26:21 > 0:26:24to me it is an oxymoron.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26Because it's still a border.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28I also visited George McArdle.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30He's been running a haulage company for the last 50
0:26:30 > 0:26:33years with experience of crossing the border.
0:26:33 > 0:26:35What are you worried about?
0:26:35 > 0:26:40We're worried about customs and delays.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45We'd be delayed a couple of hours.
0:26:45 > 0:26:50Would there be costs involved for you?
0:26:50 > 0:26:52We'd be paying drivers, the trucks lying idle.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54People say that, while we have peace, it is fragile.
0:26:54 > 0:26:55It's very fragile.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Any little thing could upset the whole thing again,
0:26:58 > 0:27:01and we wouldn't like to see Brexit be the cause of it.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10We are moving from the Republic of Ireland, just across the border,
0:27:10 > 0:27:16and I'm now in Northern Ireland.
0:27:16 > 0:27:17It was very smooth, seamless and frictionless.
0:27:17 > 0:27:22I suppose that's what we want to see continue in a post-Brexit era.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24Just across the border into Northern Ireland, I caught
0:27:24 > 0:27:26up with Des Fraser, who gave me his view
0:27:26 > 0:27:28about why the United Kingdom decided to leave Europe.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31First of all it was the cost.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34I also felt, particularly the likes of the slurry ban, for agriculture,
0:27:34 > 0:27:36I don't think there should be somebody in Brussels
0:27:36 > 0:27:39telling us when we can or can't spread our slurry.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41What effect do you think Brexit would have on the border?
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Do you think we're going to be able to avoid a hard border?
0:27:44 > 0:27:47Getting a solution is the difficulty, there's no doubt.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50There's a harmonious relationship, you know,
0:27:50 > 0:27:52with Europe and Switzerland, Europe and Norway, without a hard
0:27:52 > 0:27:55border in existence.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58It's very clear that people on both sides of the border want the special
0:27:58 > 0:28:01circumstances on the island of Ireland to be taken into account
0:28:01 > 0:28:04in the Brexit negotiations.
0:28:04 > 0:28:09But can it be and will it be done in time for the December council?
0:28:09 > 0:28:11Will we resolve the conundrum and square the circle
0:28:11 > 0:28:17of an invisible border on the island of Ireland post-Brexit?
0:28:21 > 0:28:24And Mairead McGuiness joins us now from Dublin.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29The former Northern Ireland Secretary and leading Brexiteer,
0:28:29 > 0:28:34Owen Paterson, is in Shropshire.
0:28:34 > 0:28:48Thank you both for joining us. Owen Paterson, Mariad laid out her case,
0:28:48 > 0:28:53does the Government have an answer to this?Yes, there's already an
0:28:53 > 0:29:02existing border. I've been going there since ten years ago. There's a
0:29:02 > 0:29:08currency board, now a euro sterling border, a VAT border, a corporation
0:29:08 > 0:29:12tax border, and in all the time I've been going to Northern Ireland and
0:29:12 > 0:29:26the public, not a single person ever said this presents a problem....
0:29:26 > 0:29:33Physical border.Through the referendum campaign, we made it
0:29:33 > 0:29:37clear there are electronic measures and techniques, existing techniques
0:29:37 > 0:29:42such as authorised economic operators and this can all be made
0:29:42 > 0:29:48to work if there is a will on the border. It has a small amount of
0:29:48 > 0:29:56trade. Northern Ireland has 80% of its trade to the rest of the UK,
0:29:56 > 0:30:02only 5% goes over the border. It would be very easy to license
0:30:02 > 0:30:06tankers that take milk over the border as authorising economic
0:30:06 > 0:30:10operators that go over every day, they would be recognised on a
0:30:10 > 0:30:15regular basis, all invoices done electronically. It is a very small
0:30:15 > 0:30:26problem if there is a will.Let's bring in Mairead McGuiness. Owen
0:30:26 > 0:30:28Paterson sounds like he's saying you're exaggerating the problem is
0:30:28 > 0:30:32here.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35I've listened to it several times and not heard anything new. He is
0:30:35 > 0:30:38right that where there is a will there is a way. This is a serious
0:30:38 > 0:30:43matter for my constituency, for the island of Ireland and Europe. We
0:30:43 > 0:30:48have not found the way. To bring up separate currencies, OK, it is part
0:30:48 > 0:30:53of the situation, but we don't have a border in the visible sense. When
0:30:53 > 0:30:55the United Kingdom remains determined to leave the customs
0:30:55 > 0:30:59union and single market, the milk that he refers to produced in
0:30:59 > 0:31:03Northern Ireland and processed in the Republic of Ireland comes from a
0:31:03 > 0:31:07country that is a third country, no longer a member of the European
0:31:07 > 0:31:12Union. There are many issues about that. I know the fathers in Northern
0:31:12 > 0:31:14Ireland are deeply concerned about the consequences for them as daily
0:31:14 > 0:31:21farmers. -- dairy farmers. They are troubled by his insistence that he
0:31:21 > 0:31:24wants to scrap many of the rules around the food industry and
0:31:24 > 0:31:30agriculture. He wants to scrap support for agriculture. Even
0:31:30 > 0:31:33farmers that voted Leave, they are now quite perplexed about what they
0:31:33 > 0:31:37are hearing from the UK side, not just around the issue of the border,
0:31:37 > 0:31:43but on the wider issues of trade. That is where this problem really
0:31:43 > 0:31:46lies, and where we will have great difficulty. I am more troubled this
0:31:46 > 0:31:51morning, because I read a quote from Arlene Fox the trade Secretary,
0:31:51 > 0:31:55saying that the border issue and the Irish issue will not be solved until
0:31:55 > 0:31:59the final stage, until we reach a decision on trade. I hope the United
0:31:59 > 0:32:04Kingdom is not holding the situation to ransom in these negotiations. It
0:32:04 > 0:32:10is far too serious and too critical. Let's go to Owen Paterson.May I
0:32:10 > 0:32:15finish this point?We now have a situation on the island of Ireland
0:32:15 > 0:32:18and Northern Ireland where we have built piece and we are hoping to
0:32:18 > 0:32:21maintain that. I believe that we will and we can. Unfortunately,
0:32:21 > 0:32:25there is no assembly, there are divisions between the communities
0:32:25 > 0:32:29but they are now becoming deeper. We have to work really hard to avoid
0:32:29 > 0:32:35that. Part of that is to make sure, as Theresa May said on Friday, she
0:32:35 > 0:32:38wants the situation to remain the same as it is today, post-Brexit.
0:32:38 > 0:32:43The only way to achieve that is to stay in the customs union and single
0:32:43 > 0:32:47market. That is the solution.A lot for you to pick up on. Let's start
0:32:47 > 0:32:51with the idea that it might be possible to come up with a final
0:32:51 > 0:32:54solution to the Irish border question after we have seen the
0:32:54 > 0:32:58shape of a trade deal. EU made it clear we cannot talk about trade
0:32:58 > 0:33:04until the Irish border has been settled?Saw those comments were
0:33:04 > 0:33:08completely ridiculous and they have been repeated when we have done
0:33:08 > 0:33:11interviews before. -- some of those comments. The idea that Northern
0:33:11 > 0:33:17Ireland will be taken out of the UK is absurd. 78 million people voted
0:33:17 > 0:33:21to leave the European Union, they voted to leave the customs union and
0:33:21 > 0:33:26the single market, and the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The idea
0:33:26 > 0:33:29that politicians in Dublin can somehow start to force Northern
0:33:29 > 0:33:34Ireland to stay, against the will of a significant number of citizens,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37within an arrangement that will not serve the economic and you're
0:33:37 > 0:33:40politically, it is really very dangerous. Let's talk about the
0:33:40 > 0:33:44peace process, I can't think of anything more destabilising... This
0:33:44 > 0:33:49is a really important point. I want to make this point. It is really
0:33:49 > 0:33:52very irresponsible politicians to make a statement like that, saying
0:33:52 > 0:33:57they are going to force and blackmail the UK into getting a
0:33:57 > 0:34:00special status for Northern Ireland outside the rest of the UK. That is
0:34:00 > 0:34:05a really dangerous thing to do and they should stop doing it. There are
0:34:05 > 0:34:08perfectly sensible, technical solutions to the problem of the
0:34:08 > 0:34:11border. We currently have complete conformity of standards. Products
0:34:11 > 0:34:15going over the border go on a very regular basis. It is a tiny part of
0:34:15 > 0:34:20trade between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. It is a really
0:34:20 > 0:34:24tiny part of trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
0:34:24 > 0:34:29and it is solvable by modern methods. The idea we will go back to
0:34:29 > 0:34:33old customs, with customs officials in
0:34:33 > 0:34:37in bridges, sticking a ladle into a couple trickle,
0:34:37 > 0:34:44couple trickle, it is out of date. Less than 2% of goods are
0:34:44 > 0:34:46Less than 2% of goods are inspected physically. This is completely out
0:34:46 > 0:35:00of date.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03tub of back-to-back.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06tub of back-to-back.I am disturbed by some of those comments, to
0:35:06 > 0:35:10describe that view as ridiculous is not helpful. To suggest it is
0:35:10 > 0:35:14blackmailing is appalling. The UK, the Irish at the European Union know
0:35:14 > 0:35:19we have had a difficult history. We have worked
0:35:19 > 0:35:21have worked hard politically and financially to make sure we move
0:35:21 > 0:35:27forward and we have.
0:35:27 > 0:35:29forward and we have. If the United Kingdom does trade agreements with
0:35:29 > 0:35:33other partners and goods are flowing into Northern Ireland, we have to
0:35:33 > 0:35:37watch and know where they are coming from. That will affect businesses in
0:35:37 > 0:35:41Northern Ireland, as it will affect businesses in the European Union. I
0:35:41 > 0:35:43dislike this notion, and it is happening and happened again in this
0:35:43 > 0:35:48studio this morning, that the United Kingdom and Owen Paterson would say
0:35:48 > 0:35:52if borders go up, it is our fault. Let's be frank, because we should
0:35:52 > 0:35:57be, we are neighbours and good friends.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01friends. The European Union, 28 today, we respect the democratic
0:36:01 > 0:36:04decision of the United Kingdom to leave, but I would ask you to
0:36:04 > 0:36:07reflect on the reality of Northern Ireland, where people voted to stay
0:36:07 > 0:36:11because they knew the consequences for them. Regrettably, where the
0:36:11 > 0:36:13referendum was taking place, there was no talk about the consequences
0:36:13 > 0:36:20for Northern Ireland or the island of Ireland. We are left in a
0:36:20 > 0:36:22situation where, retrospectively, we are trying to find solutions. If it
0:36:22 > 0:36:27upsets your guest at the studio, I repeated anyway, we have to be frank
0:36:27 > 0:36:31with one another. The way to stay the same on the island of Ireland,
0:36:31 > 0:36:35as it is today, post-Brexit, is for at least the United Kingdom to take
0:36:35 > 0:36:39the red off the table, to stay the customs union and single market
0:36:39 > 0:36:42gives us what we have today, and
0:36:42 > 0:36:44gives us what we have today, and invisible border, seamless trade,
0:36:44 > 0:36:49and also building at helping to keep those relationships.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52those relationships. The good relationship was helped in no small
0:36:52 > 0:36:56part because Ireland, the United Kingdom and 26 other countries can
0:36:56 > 0:37:00sit around a table. They sit in the European Parliament, in the council,
0:37:00 > 0:37:05and we do business because we got to know each other. We have formal and
0:37:05 > 0:37:08informal talks and relationships. We should really strive to continue
0:37:08 > 0:37:12that. It is in the interests of the people we spoke to on the border,
0:37:12 > 0:37:16those that wanted the United Kingdom to stay, and those that might have
0:37:16 > 0:37:19had a different view.Owen Paterson, can you see that this can be
0:37:19 > 0:37:27resolved before we know the
0:37:27 > 0:37:29resolved before we know the shape of a final trade deal? The idea that
0:37:29 > 0:37:31the Irish question needs to be settled before we move on to talking
0:37:31 > 0:37:35about future trading or relations? Is that possible?As somebody who
0:37:35 > 0:37:38spent time a shadow and Secretary of State, going very regularly to
0:37:38 > 0:37:41Dublin, getting the
0:37:41 > 0:37:44Dublin, getting the main political
0:37:44 > 0:37:46Dublin, getting the main political parties in on that, I appreciate the
0:37:46 > 0:37:49good level of relations between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, the
0:37:49 > 0:37:52enormous benefits to so many people. Therefore, I am absolutely dismayed
0:37:52 > 0:37:57at the talk this morning,
0:37:57 > 0:37:58at the talk this morning, which is completely unrealistic, expecting
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Northern Ireland to be given a separate status, outside,
0:38:01 > 0:38:06effectively, the United Kingdom. 87% of sales, purely on economics, are
0:38:06 > 0:38:09within the UK. Henri
0:38:10 > 0:38:15-- on economic grounds, it is crazy. It is very dangerous. There was a
0:38:15 > 0:38:18referendum at the time of the Belfast agreement. There was
0:38:18 > 0:38:24overwhelming support for it to stay in the UK. All of the polls show
0:38:24 > 0:38:29that Northern Ireland will stay very firmly within the UK.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33firmly within the UK.Very quickly, then, one last point?
0:38:33 > 0:38:36then, one last point?I hate to
0:38:36 > 0:38:38then, one last point?I hate to say, but Owen may not be listening to
0:38:38 > 0:38:42what I said. I said the United Kingdom would stay in the customs
0:38:42 > 0:38:44union and single market, I did not say Northern Ireland should separate
0:38:44 > 0:38:47and
0:38:47 > 0:38:50and stay in, although that is a potential solution, it is not the
0:38:50 > 0:38:54one I said this morning. Please respond to what I have said.We
0:38:54 > 0:38:58don't have time to respond to any of that. It is an issue we will return
0:38:58 > 0:39:01to. Thank you very much.
0:39:01 > 0:39:06It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Coming up on the programme, Ellie's taken the Moodbox to Yorkshire
0:39:09 > 0:39:17Good morning and welcome to the programme.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21Coming up, the Justice Secretary confirms to this programme
0:39:21 > 0:39:23that senior armed officers in Police Scotland are under
0:39:23 > 0:39:27investigation for alleged criminal behaviour or gross misconduct.
0:39:27 > 0:39:32As far as I am aware, there are two of those that have been received
0:39:32 > 0:39:35that are being investigated.
0:39:35 > 0:39:36And "Bah, humbug!"
0:39:36 > 0:39:39- we'll examine what's been dubbed the worst budget
0:39:39 > 0:39:40since the 19th century.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42Good morning and welcome to the programme.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45In their 10 years in office one of the most significant changes
0:39:45 > 0:39:47implemented by the SNP Government
0:39:47 > 0:39:49has been the creation of a single national police force.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53On April 1st 2013 - yes, really -
0:39:53 > 0:39:56the existing eight regional bodies merged in to one.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59It was supposed to create a more efficient organisation better able
0:39:59 > 0:40:01to respond to the demands of a modern country.
0:40:01 > 0:40:03Yet from the outset, Police Scotland has appeared
0:40:03 > 0:40:08anything but modern.
0:40:08 > 0:40:13The first chief comes to of police Scotland was Sir Stephen house who
0:40:13 > 0:40:19resigned after a catalogue of controversies including the routine
0:40:19 > 0:40:24arming of patrols, centralised call centres and even breaching the rock
0:40:24 > 0:40:30after police intercepted a private communication with a journalist. His
0:40:30 > 0:40:34successor Phil Gormley went on special leave earlier this year
0:40:34 > 0:40:39after multiple allegations of misconduct. Now I third senior
0:40:39 > 0:40:43officer, Bernard Higgins has been suspended while criminal allegations
0:40:43 > 0:40:49against him are investigated.
0:40:49 > 0:40:50against him are investigated. Meanwhile, the organisation charged
0:40:50 > 0:40:55with overseeing police Scotland, the Scottish police authority appears to
0:40:55 > 0:41:03be equally shambolic. After serious criticisms, Jon Flanagan retired and
0:41:03 > 0:41:05John Foley retired early.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Today, there was yet more woe for Police Scotland because
0:41:09 > 0:41:11one paper is reporting that, as well as Assistant Chief
0:41:11 > 0:41:12Constable Bernard Higgins,
0:41:12 > 0:41:14another two very senior officers have been suspended.
0:41:14 > 0:41:16Well, the man responsible for Police Scotland
0:41:16 > 0:41:17is Justice Secretary Michael Matheson.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20I spoke to him earlier.
0:41:20 > 0:41:29First of all, developments over the last few days. The Sunday mail
0:41:29 > 0:41:33newspaper today names to very serious police officers who have
0:41:33 > 0:41:39been suspended along with Bernard Williams. Is that correct?I can't
0:41:39 > 0:41:42die for journey details relating to that because the matter has been
0:41:42 > 0:41:51taken forward by the Scottish police parity and is being
0:41:51 > 0:41:54parity and is being investigated by PERC directed by the Crown Office.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59The two that I know have been suggested are individuals who were
0:41:59 > 0:42:07involved in an investigation.The two named by the Sunday Mail are
0:42:07 > 0:42:13being investigated?As far as I'm aware they are two of those that are
0:42:13 > 0:42:23being investigated by the PERC.As I understand it, they are people who
0:42:23 > 0:42:29run what is effectively the firearms unit.They are related to those
0:42:29 > 0:42:32involved in the firearms unit in police Scotland and the training
0:42:32 > 0:42:39facility.What are these allegations about?I don't want to get drawn
0:42:39 > 0:42:44into it too much because it is a live investigation directed by the
0:42:44 > 0:42:50Crown but as far as I'm aware, it relates to gross misconduct and
0:42:50 > 0:42:56misconduct, the precise details of which are for the Crown to
0:42:56 > 0:43:04investigate.What sort of misconduct?It's a matter for the
0:43:04 > 0:43:09Scottish police authority.It's clearly a matter of immense public
0:43:09 > 0:43:14interest to know what several of the most senior police officers in
0:43:14 > 0:43:20Scotland are being accused of.Like any investigation, it could be
0:43:20 > 0:43:24criminal in nature and it's important to recognise due process
0:43:24 > 0:43:28and for the individuals with complaints lodged against them, we
0:43:28 > 0:43:33allow that process to take its course. There is a statutory
0:43:33 > 0:43:35process. Scottish police have considered the matter on the basis
0:43:35 > 0:43:43of what has been decided to them by Police Scotland. The Crown Office
0:43:43 > 0:43:46are now directing this investigation and it's important not to speculate
0:43:46 > 0:43:50about the nature of the actual complaint and the details of it
0:43:50 > 0:43:55given that it is a matter that has been directed by the Crown Office.I
0:43:55 > 0:44:00am not asking you to pre-empt any due process but it is obviously a
0:44:00 > 0:44:05matter of public interest to know in general terms what the nature of
0:44:05 > 0:44:08allegations against three of the top police officers in this country.
0:44:08 > 0:44:14They are to do with misconduct and gross misconduct, that's why it's
0:44:14 > 0:44:20being investigated at the moment. That could be anything from theft of
0:44:20 > 0:44:25a few pencils to anything more than that.The reason I can't give
0:44:25 > 0:44:29details is because it is a matter taken forward by the Scottish police
0:44:29 > 0:44:34authority and it is investigated by the Crown and the details provided
0:44:34 > 0:44:40by the Crown and the PERC and the Police authority have a level of
0:44:40 > 0:44:46detail that Scottish ministers have in these matters.The trade union
0:44:46 > 0:44:52for police officers are unhappy about this. A spokesman is quoted as
0:44:52 > 0:44:56calling the suspension is warranted. They have their view given that they
0:44:56 > 0:45:02represent some of their members.Why are they wrong in your view?They
0:45:02 > 0:45:09would have to explain that themselves.They say, our members
0:45:09 > 0:45:17rightly ask what allows some members to be granted leave, a reference to
0:45:17 > 0:45:21this police constable while under investigation, but for that same
0:45:21 > 0:45:26opportunity not to be investigated to them.The police authority have
0:45:26 > 0:45:29considered the details put to them by the review commission and based
0:45:29 > 0:45:34on that the Scottish police authority who determine disciplinary
0:45:34 > 0:45:38matters make a decision on appropriate action and any decision
0:45:38 > 0:45:42to suspend someone is taken by the deputy chief const are in this
0:45:42 > 0:45:49instance.But the point they are making is that Phil Gormley is on
0:45:49 > 0:45:53special leave and we know the nature of the allegations against him. You
0:45:53 > 0:45:56won't tell is the nature of the collisions against these other
0:45:56 > 0:45:59officers and they have not been given the opportunity to take
0:45:59 > 0:46:06special leave and have just been suspended. Why?Sarah differences in
0:46:06 > 0:46:13the allegations between firearms officers and Bernard Higgins. As for
0:46:13 > 0:46:19what action is to be taken, for those below the rank of police
0:46:19 > 0:46:25constable it is for the police authority to determine. It is a
0:46:25 > 0:46:33decision that was made by rose Fitzpatrick the deputy chief
0:46:33 > 0:46:41Dunstable -- constable.A lot of people will be sitting thinking,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45this guy is the Justice Secretary and is in charge and he is sitting
0:46:45 > 0:46:51there saying nothing to do with me. That's not the case at all. There is
0:46:51 > 0:46:59due process to do with these issues. We put in place a process that would
0:46:59 > 0:47:03investigate and deal with these issues. There is a legal process
0:47:03 > 0:47:06because of statutory provision for these issues and it has been taken
0:47:06 > 0:47:12forward. I'm saying that I respect the due process and will allow the
0:47:12 > 0:47:20PERC to take forward the investigation. I am going to make
0:47:20 > 0:47:24sure that the process is allowed to take its course in order to make
0:47:24 > 0:47:30sure that those who have complaint against them but they are allowed to
0:47:30 > 0:47:33process without unnecessary speculation in relation to the
0:47:33 > 0:47:36complaints and with respect to the fact that they need to allow the
0:47:36 > 0:47:39process to be interfered with by ministers while it's being
0:47:39 > 0:47:44completed.What would you say to members of the public to say, hang
0:47:44 > 0:47:48on a minute, it looks like the entire top leadership of police
0:47:48 > 0:47:52Scotland is now under investigation for various different alleged
0:47:52 > 0:48:00offences and you are the Justice Secretary and are not allowed to say
0:48:00 > 0:48:10what these matters are in relation to. It's not acceptable.A key part
0:48:10 > 0:48:15of this process is to respect the way in which that is conducted.
0:48:15 > 0:48:23Without undue interference in the process. You are a inviting me to
0:48:23 > 0:48:29interfere in the process.I'm not. I ask you to tell others about the
0:48:29 > 0:48:34nature of the allegations.I am not prepared to do that where there is a
0:48:34 > 0:48:39process in place to deal with this issue.There is a basic issue on a
0:48:39 > 0:48:44broader level of trust here. Policing, perhaps more than most
0:48:44 > 0:48:50public services relies on trust. You are asking members of the public to
0:48:50 > 0:48:54come forward and inform on drug gangs or whatever and those members
0:48:54 > 0:48:59of the public could feel that they may be in jeopardy. How are people
0:48:59 > 0:49:04supposed to trust police Scotland when so much of the senior
0:49:04 > 0:49:08leadership is now under investigation by the Crown Office
0:49:08 > 0:49:13and police investigators?I accept this is a challenging time
0:49:13 > 0:49:18particularly for the executive team within police Scotland. There is a
0:49:18 > 0:49:21very serious group of individuals who are dealing with day-to-day
0:49:21 > 0:49:26policing matters and the reality is that even though the charges which
0:49:26 > 0:49:30the executive team are facing at the moment, day-to-day policing will
0:49:30 > 0:49:35continue as it is and will continue to do that going forward. What is
0:49:35 > 0:49:38important is to make sure that the command structure in Scotland has
0:49:38 > 0:49:43the necessary support it requires and that's why debit she chief comes
0:49:43 > 0:49:47to a living stone is reviewing the command structure to see whether he
0:49:47 > 0:49:50can add individuals to that to support the Mac going forward
0:49:50 > 0:49:54particularly during a period when they don't have the chief customer
0:49:54 > 0:49:57here and the Deputy Chief Constable is suspended. He will sink that out
0:49:57 > 0:50:04in the coming days.You say things will go on as normal. One of the
0:50:04 > 0:50:09people involved, if the report is to be believed, is in charge of
0:50:09 > 0:50:13hostages generations should there be a terrorist attack. How can someone
0:50:13 > 0:50:19as senior as that be removed and you say nothing to see here, go on as
0:50:19 > 0:50:25normal.Normal day-to-day policing will continue as normal. Ian
0:50:25 > 0:50:29Livingstone is presently reviewing his command structure to see whether
0:50:29 > 0:50:35he needs to put in any additional individuals to make sure he has the
0:50:35 > 0:50:39support he requires. These are operational matters for the deputy
0:50:39 > 0:50:42chief customer to consider and he's now looking about to see whether he
0:50:42 > 0:50:46needs to bring in any additional individuals to provide that support
0:50:46 > 0:50:50and that's appropriate. What will be important now is in carrying out
0:50:50 > 0:50:56that review of the process that any changes he has to implement our that
0:50:56 > 0:50:58the Scottish police authority give him the assistance to make sure that
0:50:58 > 0:51:03happens as quickly as possible.One inference one could draw from what
0:51:03 > 0:51:07is going on given that so many people are involved at the head of
0:51:07 > 0:51:12police Scotland, it is not just a coincidence and there must be some
0:51:12 > 0:51:18basic cultural problem within that organisation. You think there is? Or
0:51:18 > 0:51:22is it just coincidence?What we do have now in the process which we
0:51:22 > 0:51:25deal with these issues is greater transparency and accountability in
0:51:25 > 0:51:32how these matters are dealt with. Previous legacy says that they
0:51:32 > 0:51:37didn't have the PERC or the Scottish police authority to lead these type
0:51:37 > 0:51:42of issues and take them forward. We have much greater transparency and
0:51:42 > 0:51:46accountability but I understand that people will be concerned when you
0:51:46 > 0:51:52have senior officials under investigation for various issues.Do
0:51:52 > 0:51:57you think there is a cultural problem?I'm not sure that is the
0:51:57 > 0:52:05case but what I think is important is...Wooden July to find out? --
0:52:05 > 0:52:13wouldn't you like to find out?The investigations are on a number of
0:52:13 > 0:52:18different matters. What is important is that we have the command
0:52:18 > 0:52:22structure that is required and once the investigations have been carried
0:52:22 > 0:52:31out into the officers we will be in a better place to understand what
0:52:31 > 0:52:36the circumstances that related to those complaints are.So you will
0:52:36 > 0:52:40consider leading some sort of investigation into the culture of
0:52:40 > 0:52:46police Scotland once the due process is over?Once we have completed this
0:52:46 > 0:52:50process, I will ensure that those actions are taken if it is
0:52:50 > 0:52:55appropriate.We are running out of time. The Conservatives have said
0:52:55 > 0:53:00that you should at least put on hold the merger of British Transport
0:53:00 > 0:53:04Police with police Scotland given the mess at the top of police
0:53:04 > 0:53:09Scotland. Will you do that? It seems an obvious thing to do.The work
0:53:09 > 0:53:14that has been taken forward around the integration of transport police
0:53:14 > 0:53:18into police Scotland is led by the integration board that brings a
0:53:18 > 0:53:21range of partners together.You are not saying that you couldn't
0:53:21 > 0:53:26intervene?If they raise concerns with me on that matter I would
0:53:26 > 0:53:33consider it.You can intervene. It is a political decision to do this.
0:53:33 > 0:53:38I will consider any issues that they raise. The reason that the
0:53:38 > 0:53:41Conservatives are asking is not to do it is because they opposed the
0:53:41 > 0:53:45idea in the first place. What I'm saying to you is if there are issues
0:53:45 > 0:53:50that I think are relating to British Transport Police that need to be
0:53:50 > 0:53:57addressed I will consider that.Let me quote to you the chairman of the
0:53:57 > 0:54:00British Transport Police Federation, Nigel good band. He says, we are
0:54:00 > 0:54:04shocked by the lack of transparency and accountability and financial
0:54:04 > 0:54:09prudence shown throughout this process.In relation to the way
0:54:09 > 0:54:13we've taken forward integration? There was legislation through
0:54:13 > 0:54:23Parliament and the majority of MSPs supported integration into BT P.So
0:54:23 > 0:54:31he is wrong?They have guaranteed pay levels and jobs and we will have
0:54:31 > 0:54:36a dedicated railway policing unit within police Scotland so I
0:54:36 > 0:54:40understand their concerns but we engage with them on a regular basis
0:54:40 > 0:54:43and there is a joint programme on board bringing together a whole
0:54:43 > 0:54:50range of expertise. I
0:54:50 > 0:54:52range of expertise. I will consider that but at this point they haven't
0:54:52 > 0:54:56raised those concerns.Thank you very much indeed.
0:54:56 > 0:54:59This week we had one of the most pessimistic budgets in generations.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01For the past decade there's been an unprecedented squeeze
0:55:01 > 0:55:02on our living standards.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05But what's remarkable is that we've got another five years to go
0:55:05 > 0:55:08at least before earnings return to anything like the levels we saw
0:55:08 > 0:55:09before the financial crisis.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11In a moment we'll discuss what it all means -
0:55:11 > 0:55:14and whether the Scottish Government will now put up taxes
0:55:14 > 0:55:15in its own forthcoming budget?
0:55:15 > 0:55:22First, here's Graham Stewart.
0:55:22 > 0:55:32Today they revised down the projection for GP. Unprecedented,
0:55:32 > 0:55:39worst since 19th century.Here is the loan of £70. You expect me to be
0:55:39 > 0:55:45grateful for this feeble triple coins?Have you no heart mist a
0:55:45 > 0:55:51script at the bleak midwinter all right.Wages stagnant, living
0:55:51 > 0:55:55standards squeezed and no improvement for decades and at the
0:55:55 > 0:56:03very least, happy Christmas bastion mark --? Not much cheer on the high
0:56:03 > 0:56:09Street this Black Friday we can Scottish retailers reported slow
0:56:09 > 0:56:17starts to the Steyl sales on pinch living standards. If you are
0:56:17 > 0:56:26underpaid, nurses are underpaid... Minimum wages £70 50 will stop -- £7
0:56:26 > 0:56:3450.Pensioners haven't gone up to compensate with wages and prices.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37People are feeling the pinch. That is why I am here on Black Friday
0:56:37 > 0:56:47looking for bargains.Packed your real income to grow 2%, you're a
0:56:47 > 0:56:51city grow would be improving all the time but we have had a decade
0:56:51 > 0:56:56basically where that hasn't happened and it looks like we will have
0:56:56 > 0:57:03possibly as much as a another decade where living standards are fine, so
0:57:03 > 0:57:08the key is the lack of growth and productivity, how much we produce
0:57:08 > 0:57:14power has increased. British workers are at as European counterparts,
0:57:14 > 0:57:25it's a key challenge.
0:57:32 > 0:57:38For I had to take the pharmacy. Scrooge has no time for slackers.
0:57:38 > 0:57:49Rigid workers are lazy. Predict that it would be low due to poor advice
0:57:49 > 0:57:53on higher education sector but it is really about what skilled ultraquiet
0:57:53 > 0:57:59for the workforce going forward which is why I have stressed
0:57:59 > 0:58:02different skills or levers and people coming at the University but
0:58:02 > 0:58:10also those in more Whiteleys areas they are adequately trained the
0:58:10 > 0:58:14economy and those highly paid jobs going forward will require higher
0:58:14 > 0:58:19skills across the board. Just as Ebenezer Scrooge flicked to wake
0:58:19 > 0:58:26them at the top and has barred more money and spend. That means an extra
0:58:26 > 0:58:30£2 billion for Scotland but slightly more than half has strings attached.
0:58:30 > 0:58:36Projects for which money has to be paid back. That is helped by bigger
0:58:36 > 0:58:44than a quarter for day-to-day
0:58:44 > 0:58:50than a quarter for day-to-day spending but all people the
0:58:50 > 0:59:01chocolate bite the impression that it was somehow a educational, and
0:59:01 > 0:59:03breadth of the country. Ruth Davidson knows that it's far from
0:59:03 > 0:59:10the truth.
0:59:10 > 0:59:16the truth.The, SNP say that is the wrong kind of money. Money to tackle
0:59:16 > 0:59:22pot
0:59:22 > 0:59:28pot with the... Only business that could be handed to billions at the
0:59:28 > 0:59:35like someone had stolen has got her skank.
0:59:42 > 0:59:49The invitations for the economy no one can know. Philip Hammond might
0:59:49 > 0:59:53not be the only Mize this Christmas. not be the only Mize this Christmas.
0:59:53 > 1:00:03-- miser.You old skinflint! Twopence is tuppence.
1:00:04 > 1:00:06I'm joined now by Labour's Paul Sweeney,
1:00:06 > 1:00:08in Edinburgh is the Conservative's John Lamont and in Dundee
1:00:08 > 1:00:18is the SNP's Stewart Hosie.
1:00:18 > 1:00:26If we are to see no rise in real wages for at least a second decade
1:00:26 > 1:00:31and certainly to be somewhere like 2022 before we even see real living
1:00:31 > 1:00:35standards getting back to the levels before the financial crisis, that's
1:00:35 > 1:00:41a disastrous record for government, isn't it?I would dispute that
1:00:41 > 1:00:43strongly. Current Conservative governments and the coalition
1:00:43 > 1:00:48previously worked very hard to sort out our country is net you dreadful
1:00:48 > 1:00:56legacy that we inherited. The government has done a lots to reform
1:00:56 > 1:00:59the economy and put it on a stronger footing. It would have otherwise
1:00:59 > 1:01:05been on a stronger footing and will be if Mr Corbyn gets elected.Just
1:01:05 > 1:01:10to be clear there is no combination of policies that could have stopped
1:01:10 > 1:01:15real living standards stagnating until the mid 20 20s, is that really
1:01:15 > 1:01:21what you are saying?The way to ensure economic prosperity of our
1:01:21 > 1:01:26country and strong growth is to put our economy on a strong footing and
1:01:26 > 1:01:33the reforms which the Conservative government have put in place to
1:01:33 > 1:01:37reduce the deficit and control borrowing lovers will enjoy being
1:01:37 > 1:01:43economy is in a surer bidding than otherwise would be. Creating an
1:01:43 > 1:01:47economy that creates well-paid jobs is the best way to ensure people's
1:01:47 > 1:01:51living standards are improved.Paul Sweeney, is the whale to deal with
1:01:51 > 1:01:56this way to raise taxes? In Scotland, I'm asking you this
1:01:56 > 1:02:03question because what Richard's position is? Ray Burke were in
1:02:03 > 1:02:09favour of -- labour were in favour of raving taxes.Fundamentally the
1:02:09 > 1:02:12issue in the UK as a whole is the evisceration of the public services.
1:02:12 > 1:02:17We are seeing the Tory sleight of hand in the last few years has been
1:02:17 > 1:02:22turning a bank crisis into a spending crisis. The Tories
1:02:22 > 1:02:27inherited a growing economy on the Labour government. That point about
1:02:27 > 1:02:34tax, Scotland's register revenue budget will decline a little bit
1:02:34 > 1:02:39because of capital spending is the challenge for Scottish treatment,
1:02:39 > 1:02:43but that gap using the new fiscal powers they have. That is what we
1:02:43 > 1:02:47are advocating.We want to see this improving.Our world is putting
1:02:47 > 1:02:50taxes up address the underlying issue, terrible productivity in the
1:02:50 > 1:02:55economy?What we need is investment economy?What we need is investment
1:02:55 > 1:03:00-- reinvestment in the economy. We need to increase public spending an
1:03:00 > 1:03:05services, and we can invest more in the economy as a result. We need
1:03:05 > 1:03:09higher growth and that is what we will see. Cutting at every turn we
1:03:09 > 1:03:14will is not see a better picture. You have officially not decided but
1:03:14 > 1:03:19you want to put taxes up as well? The government Minister for Finance
1:03:19 > 1:03:24will be looking at the entire budget. We will be putting forward a
1:03:24 > 1:03:28budget in a few weeks' time. In the context of the UK Government budget
1:03:28 > 1:03:35we have just had, let us remember which has seen growth cut in every
1:03:35 > 1:03:40year of the forecast, we have seen GDP per head halved almost for the
1:03:40 > 1:03:44entire forecast period. Even when the Chancellor and added some
1:03:44 > 1:03:51sensible spending in investment and innovation that big £7 billion pack.
1:03:51 > 1:03:58Until 2022 or 2023, six time. He should have spent that money now.
1:03:58 > 1:04:02Because we need it, and to mitigate potential damage from Brexit.
1:04:02 > 1:04:06Because the bad thing is we have seen here, they are before the
1:04:06 > 1:04:13impact of the Brexit is felt.I thought SNP policy was to basically
1:04:13 > 1:04:20balance the budget for current spending but spend money on capital
1:04:20 > 1:04:23projects which could benefit future generations as well as current
1:04:23 > 1:04:28generations. In order to do that, you will obviously have do have some
1:04:28 > 1:04:34cuts to public funding to get things back in balance. So is it not in
1:04:34 > 1:04:38fact the Conservative government doing exactly what you say you are
1:04:38 > 1:04:43for?If you recall from the election we may be point that the UK
1:04:43 > 1:04:47Government should be spending the money now. Partly to mitigate Brexit
1:04:47 > 1:04:51and partly to grow the economy, and at the end of this parliament when
1:04:51 > 1:04:54we saw the deficit continued to fall, debt begins to fall as a share
1:04:54 > 1:05:01of GDP and at that point, in balance of a surplus, the money should be
1:05:01 > 1:05:05for capital projects but we are at that point yet is precisely because
1:05:05 > 1:05:10we have seen the growth forecasts mocked down. We have been denuded of
1:05:10 > 1:05:16cash.Paul Sweeney, that is a Labour policy, as well, is it not? To
1:05:16 > 1:05:21balance the current budget and then only on capital spending. I put it
1:05:21 > 1:05:24to you that the Conservatives are doing what you say you want to do
1:05:24 > 1:05:27but what impact this you complain bitterly about?Actually the measure
1:05:27 > 1:05:33of success for the Conservatives has been cutting the deficit when I have
1:05:33 > 1:05:42failed at every turn. They are planning to balance it in 2030. And
1:05:42 > 1:05:49his 16 years, a generational betrayal.What you are saying is
1:05:49 > 1:05:52putting balancing the budget off even further. What we are saying is
1:05:52 > 1:05:55not doing it through a primary measure of cutting public spending
1:05:55 > 1:05:58but balancing the budget by growing tax revenues and we do that by
1:05:58 > 1:06:03investing in the country. The great use a veggie cycle. The Tories have
1:06:03 > 1:06:07cut and slang will be public services as a result of their fiscal
1:06:07 > 1:06:10cuts will stop we need to Ashley invest in the economy to get that
1:06:10 > 1:06:15benefit. Jonathan, throughout the chancellorship of George Osborne we
1:06:15 > 1:06:20were told to balance the budget and that was the main thing to care
1:06:20 > 1:06:26about. And that we had to worry about. Philip Hammond says it won't
1:06:26 > 1:06:30now be balance until 2031. It was supposed to have been balanced by
1:06:30 > 1:06:342015. It wasn't even mentioned in the budget, does that not make you
1:06:34 > 1:06:37feel bad? That the thing that we were told that was the most
1:06:37 > 1:06:40important thing we had to worry about, it now seems even the
1:06:40 > 1:06:45Conservatives don't care!It is important to recognise that our
1:06:45 > 1:06:49political opponents have bought two den nail to stop the very top
1:06:49 > 1:06:51decisions that the Conservative government have had to make to the
1:06:51 > 1:06:56reduce both the deficit and... Apparently that is still not
1:06:56 > 1:07:03important then.It is the economic situation of the country remaining
1:07:03 > 1:07:05challenging, still dealing with the legacy of the last Labour
1:07:05 > 1:07:14government. Wow. It is effective to use a balanced budget.We are
1:07:14 > 1:07:17running out of time. Very quickly committee would, John Stuart, you
1:07:17 > 1:07:25are looking more sceptical by the moment.
1:07:25 > 1:07:32I'm extremely sceptical indeed. The deficit hasn't fallen. The budget
1:07:32 > 1:07:36won't be balanced for goodness knows how many years. The government fail
1:07:36 > 1:07:40on every car that they set for themselves and it is the poorest in
1:07:40 > 1:07:46this country and our productivity that pays the price.Thank you very
1:07:46 > 1:07:48much indeed.
1:07:48 > 1:07:52Now it's time for a look back - as well as forwards -
1:07:52 > 1:07:53to the week ahead.
1:07:53 > 1:07:55With me this week are the journalists Rebecca McQuillan
1:07:55 > 1:08:01and Paul Hutcheon who work for The Herald and Sunday Herald.
1:08:01 > 1:08:04First, Paul, interesting, isn't it that the Justice Secretary con
1:08:04 > 1:08:15firmed that these two policeman Curt Coronel and Bob Glass as the people
1:08:15 > 1:08:22involved. It's a mess, isn't it?It is a dysfunctional failing
1:08:22 > 1:08:27organisation with the Chief Constable on leave amid allegations
1:08:27 > 1:08:33and seven other cops facing misconduct investigations over a spy
1:08:33 > 1:08:36probe and now Assistant Chief Constable Bernie Higgins and
1:08:36 > 1:08:42colleagues in the firearms unit suspended. It's not good.Do you
1:08:42 > 1:08:46think there is any merit. One of the things that Michael Matheson
1:08:46 > 1:08:50suggested, perhaps we have these people under investigation because
1:08:50 > 1:08:54in the olden days they wouldn't have been investigated. More
1:08:54 > 1:09:02investigations may be a product of more investigators?In the legacy
1:09:02 > 1:09:05forces, there was a culture of cover-up and secrecy. The one
1:09:05 > 1:09:13benefit of the single force is there is much more scrutiny. I know from
1:09:13 > 1:09:24experience that police Scotland is a very leaky
1:09:24 > 1:09:30very leaky organisation. In pre-2013 days, I don't think people felt they
1:09:30 > 1:09:36could come forward. There is a glare of publicity which is a good thing.
1:09:36 > 1:09:43What have you made of this, Rebecca? I can't remember a time when a
1:09:43 > 1:09:46Scottish institution had so many problems on so many different
1:09:46 > 1:09:52fronts. Paul mentioned all those investigations, which are separate,
1:09:52 > 1:09:58they are not linked together.We didn't get around to the fact that
1:09:58 > 1:10:02there is a new leader of the Scottish police Association coming
1:10:02 > 1:10:14in.This is the body that oversees police Scotland and there is
1:10:14 > 1:10:17financial mismanagement, controversy over stop and search and armed
1:10:17 > 1:10:21police and one thing and another. An awful lot of things going wrong at
1:10:21 > 1:10:27once. As you were driving up with some of your questions, it does make
1:10:27 > 1:10:32you ask if there is some underlying cause for this malaise. Actually, it
1:10:32 > 1:10:36doesn't look like there is just one course. A number of things are going
1:10:36 > 1:10:43wrong at once.I know there have been some suggestions of what these
1:10:43 > 1:10:47allegations are about but I don't want to repeat them because Michael
1:10:47 > 1:10:54Matheson said that we shouldn't. But will that wash? We do know roughly
1:10:54 > 1:11:01what Phil Gormley is being investigated for but the others, is
1:11:01 > 1:11:05it going to wash to say that you are not allowed to know? There is an
1:11:05 > 1:11:11issue of confidence.It's inevitable that the detail of these complaints
1:11:11 > 1:11:15will seep out. I have a degree of sympathy with Michael Matheson in
1:11:15 > 1:11:23that it shows the real problem of policing where he is expected to
1:11:23 > 1:11:27answer questions on disciplinary and conduct issues with the police. The
1:11:27 > 1:11:36organisation set up to oversee this organisation would do that if it was
1:11:36 > 1:11:41doing its job properly. He wouldn't have to answer those questions.So,
1:11:41 > 1:11:47in effect, it's not a functioning organisation?It is completely
1:11:47 > 1:11:53dysfunctional. I don't think anyone in Scottish policing has any
1:11:53 > 1:11:58confidence in the S P a at all. There was a suggestion that after
1:11:58 > 1:12:04due process, he may start some investigation into what has gone
1:12:04 > 1:12:06wrong. Something is going to have to be done to restore public
1:12:06 > 1:12:13confidence.
1:12:13 > 1:12:17confidence.Opposing politicians like nothing more than to call for a
1:12:17 > 1:12:21root and branch review and that has not happened. You wonder if it is
1:12:21 > 1:12:25the right moment to do this because a number of things have to happen
1:12:25 > 1:12:31that are in process at the moment. One of the first is, the force needs
1:12:31 > 1:12:36a Chief Constable. He is on gardening leave at the moment and
1:12:36 > 1:12:39there is an investigation that we hope will be concluded quickly.
1:12:39 > 1:12:44There has been a lot of controversy about call handling, recommendations
1:12:44 > 1:12:48have been made, there are things going on at the moment, one would
1:12:48 > 1:12:52hope, would within six months or a year all of this would have settled
1:12:52 > 1:12:58down. If it hasn't, then, yes, you are going to need a fairly serious
1:12:58 > 1:13:01review of how this organisation is working just four or five years
1:13:01 > 1:13:08after it is set up.And cultural problems. They are very difficult to
1:13:08 > 1:13:16change.Many of the problems that Police Scotland suffered were there
1:13:16 > 1:13:20under the legacy forces, like stop and search, it is only through
1:13:20 > 1:13:25scrutiny that we have actually seen Strathclyde policies rolled out
1:13:25 > 1:13:29nationally and people don't like them. Many of the things that have
1:13:29 > 1:13:35been dominating the news coverage have been there for years.They are
1:13:35 > 1:13:39going to merge even more, including the British Transport Police. Might
1:13:39 > 1:13:49it be sensible to put that on hold? I do. Bernard Higgins, currently
1:13:49 > 1:13:54suspended, was, as I understand it, going to oversee this merger. He
1:13:54 > 1:13:58said that there would be massive transitional issues merging the two
1:13:58 > 1:14:04forces. It's not the right time to be doing this.What do you think,
1:14:04 > 1:14:10Paul?Many stories have said that there is no business case for this
1:14:10 > 1:14:14and it was done for political reasons rather than policing
1:14:14 > 1:14:20reasons. I would ask whether Police Scotland has done enough to deserve
1:14:20 > 1:14:21becoming bigger?
1:14:21 > 1:14:24That's all from the us this week.
1:14:24 > 1:14:26I'll be back at the same time next week.
1:14:26 > 1:14:28Until then, goodbye.