0:00:38 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Welcome to the Sunday Politics - your essential guide to the biggest
0:00:44 > 0:00:45political stories of the week.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Coming up on today's show...
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Ahead of a crucial EU summit, is Theresa May on the brink
0:00:51 > 0:00:54of a breakthrough on Brexit?
0:00:54 > 0:00:58Or, after a slightly torrid week, is she in danger of being
0:00:58 > 0:00:59overtaken by events?
0:00:59 > 0:01:02The ex-Labour minister Alan Milburn quits as chairman
0:01:02 > 0:01:04of the Social Mobility Commission, saying he has "little hope"
0:01:04 > 0:01:06the current government can make the "necessary" progress.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09What does this mean for a Prime Minister who vowed
0:01:09 > 0:01:12to fight against the "burning injustice" of inequality?
0:01:12 > 0:01:15And, we speak to the academic who's carrying out economic "wargaming"
0:01:15 > 0:01:20scenarios for the Labour party, in the event it wins power.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23People are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions
0:01:23 > 0:01:25and their livelihoods.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27We've got to show we know what we're doing.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29This seems like common sense to me.
0:01:29 > 0:01:30And on Sunday Politics Scotland:
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Amid the crisis engulfing Police Scotland, the body charged
0:01:32 > 0:01:35with overseeing them has a new boss.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37I'll be speaking to Susan Deacon, who takes over at the Scottish
0:01:37 > 0:01:45Police Authority tomorrow morning.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Yes, all that coming up in the programme.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53And to help guide me through all the week's
0:01:53 > 0:01:55twists and turns, I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Isabel Oakeshott, and Steve Richards.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00Now, the breaking news this morning is the resignation of Alan Milburn -
0:02:00 > 0:02:03the ex-Labour minister who, for the last five years, has chaired
0:02:03 > 0:02:04the Social Mobility Commission.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06He says the Government is too preoccupied with Brexit
0:02:06 > 0:02:08to focus on social justice.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13We'll be assessing the significance of that in a moment.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16But first, if that relationship has turned sour for the Prime Minister,
0:02:16 > 0:02:20it wasn't the only one this week.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Like all relationships, our liaison with our European neighbours
0:02:23 > 0:02:27has had its ups and downs.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31Theresa May wants a deep and special partnership after Brexit.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35Thus far, money has been the main obstacle to
0:02:35 > 0:02:38an amicable divorce.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41This week, a possible breakthrough.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44He once said "the EU could go whistle if they
0:02:44 > 0:02:48asked for too much," now he's practically dancing with joy.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51It's a fantastic opportunity now to get going.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Others are always harder to please.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57It is not worth nearly 50 billion sterling.
0:02:57 > 0:03:03No deal is better than a bad deal and this is a very bad deal indeed.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Brussels may be on board with the divorce bill but
0:03:05 > 0:03:07there's trouble over the Irish border.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will
0:03:10 > 0:03:16also be unacceptable for the EU.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Reports suggest Stormont could be given more power to agree bespoke
0:03:19 > 0:03:21trading arrangements with the Republic but that, in turn,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25enraged Theresa May's partners in Parliament.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28The DUP could walk out of their marriage of convenience
0:03:28 > 0:03:31with the Tories if the Government allows Northern Ireland to diverge
0:03:31 > 0:03:36from the rest of the UK.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39If there is any hint that in order to placate Dublin and the EU,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41they are prepared to have Northern Ireland treated differently
0:03:41 > 0:03:47than the rest of the United Kingdom, then they can't rely on our vote.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49But it was the "special relationship" that came
0:03:49 > 0:03:53under most strain.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54As Donald Trump re-tweeted Islamophobia videos,
0:03:54 > 0:03:58posted by the far right group, Britain First.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01Denounced by Downing Street, the President took to Twitter again,
0:04:01 > 0:04:03telling Theresa May directly, "Don't focus on me,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07we are doing just fine."
0:04:07 > 0:04:11The Prime Minister on a surprise trip to the Middle East was plunged
0:04:11 > 0:04:13into a very public row.
0:04:13 > 0:04:14I'm very clear that re-tweeting from Britain
0:04:14 > 0:04:19First was the wrong thing to do.
0:04:19 > 0:04:24The May-Trump mini break in the UK might be off.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27I certainly don't think he should be should be coming next year.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Next year is supposed to be a happy event for the Royal family.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32We certainly don't want Trump turning up in the middle
0:04:32 > 0:04:33of all of that.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Meanwhile, Labour leader and GQ magazine cover model declared
0:04:36 > 0:04:40himself to be an enemy of greedy bankers.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44So, when they say, we're a threat, they're right.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46We are a threat to a damaging and failed
0:04:46 > 0:04:50system that's rigged for the few.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53The Prime Minister's closest political
0:04:53 > 0:04:55friend stood in for her at the dispatch box on Wednesday
0:04:55 > 0:04:58while she was abroad but fresh questions emerged later
0:04:58 > 0:05:00in the week about whether he'd used a Parliamentary
0:05:00 > 0:05:05computer to view pornography some nine years ago.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08Theresa May will meet be EU Commission President
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12They will discuss the revised offer on the divorce
0:05:12 > 0:05:15bill and whether talks can now move on to trade
0:05:15 > 0:05:16post-Brexit.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20It has not been an easy relationship with leaks from
0:05:20 > 0:05:22previous meetings finding their way into the German press.
0:05:22 > 0:05:31Hopefully, they can put all of that behind them.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36So, we will talk through one of the top stories for the week with our
0:05:36 > 0:05:41panel in the studio. We are going to be looking ahead to what is
0:05:41 > 0:05:45happening in Brussels. The Prime Minister is going over for a working
0:05:45 > 0:05:48lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow. We are always saying we
0:05:48 > 0:05:52have reached a critical stage in the negotiations.Is it a critical
0:05:52 > 0:06:00point? It is. It is endgame of chapter one. There are two chapters,
0:06:00 > 0:06:04divorce and then trade. This is the end of the first half, at the 43rd
0:06:04 > 0:06:11minute. It is probably 0-0. We need to get over the line and into
0:06:11 > 0:06:16half-time and into the second half. Wyatt is so critical is the Prime
0:06:16 > 0:06:20Minister, in the next few days, she cannot wait till the 14th or 15th of
0:06:20 > 0:06:27December, have to choose to govern is to choose. One side is saying
0:06:27 > 0:06:31this is what we will act set to move on to the second phase and the
0:06:31 > 0:06:36Eurosceptics will say, we will not access to any of that. She has to
0:06:36 > 0:06:44get off the fence. One is what they will do about easy JN the other
0:06:44 > 0:06:50about the Irish border. To divert or not diverged?This is only the end
0:06:50 > 0:06:56of the first half of the process. If the EU agrees we can move onto the
0:06:56 > 0:07:02second half. That is not guaranteed, is it?Tom's analogy, I will not go
0:07:02 > 0:07:11too far with it because I'm not a football expert. Brexiteers feel it
0:07:11 > 0:07:19is more like 1-0 to the EU. There is a circulation today, leave means
0:07:19 > 0:07:24leave, which is signed by eminent business people and academics. Only
0:07:24 > 0:07:28a few MPs, about five of them on now. We were discussing this earlier
0:07:28 > 0:07:33and Tom made the point it is quite a hostile thing for a Tory MP to sign
0:07:33 > 0:07:37a letter like this. Many more agree with the contents of the letter,
0:07:37 > 0:07:43which sets out the set of conditions the PM must not agree to, in their
0:07:43 > 0:07:48view, must not capitulate to as the negotiation goes forward. It is
0:07:48 > 0:07:53about when free movement of people ends and we retain the power to go
0:07:53 > 0:07:58to WTO if all else fails.We be discussing this further with our
0:07:58 > 0:08:03guests and find out what the EU had think about it. The other big news
0:08:03 > 0:08:07of the morning is that Alan Milburn resigned from the social mobility
0:08:07 > 0:08:18commission. He told and remarked earlier why. -- Andrew Marr.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21In various social mobility roles, I've served a Labour Prime Minister,
0:08:21 > 0:08:23a coalition Prime Minister, and now, a Conservative one.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26I've done so because I care deeply about the issue and I believe
0:08:26 > 0:08:28that it matters profoundly to the country.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30I've reached the conclusion, sadly, that with the current government,
0:08:30 > 0:08:33there is little if any hope of progress being made
0:08:33 > 0:08:34towards the fairer Britain that the Prime Minister
0:08:34 > 0:08:35has talked about.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37The Government, probably for understandable reasons,
0:08:37 > 0:08:39is focused on Brexit, and seems to lack the bandwidth
0:08:39 > 0:08:42to be able to translate the rhetoric of healing social division
0:08:42 > 0:08:47and promoting social justice into a reality.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51That is a pretty damning statement, the Government does not have the
0:08:51 > 0:08:58bandwidth to do with anything other than Brexit.It is true. Brexit is
0:08:58 > 0:09:02sucking up all political energy much practical energy in Whitehall.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07Beyond that, the significance of this is not huge. I think these
0:09:07 > 0:09:12commissions float uneasily in government. If you make policy on
0:09:12 > 0:09:16social justice, you can do that within a government department if
0:09:16 > 0:09:21you are serious about it. I think it was set up partly with good
0:09:21 > 0:09:24intentions in the coalition period, partly to break off the Blairites
0:09:24 > 0:09:30from Labour and get them involved with these so called modernising
0:09:30 > 0:09:35Conservative project, and the fact that it is ending, I don't think in
0:09:35 > 0:09:39itself is significant. But he is absolutely... By the way they were
0:09:39 > 0:09:44never entirely clear on policy terms. The fact he said I am not a
0:09:44 > 0:09:50status quo nor am I with Theresa May, what are going to be the
0:09:50 > 0:09:55mediating agencies? There are some huge issues to address. Whether this
0:09:55 > 0:09:59was the appropriate way to do it in the first place, I have doubts about
0:09:59 > 0:10:01it.Thank you for that.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05Well, to pick up on all of that, I'm joined by the former
0:10:05 > 0:10:06Conservative leader, Michael Howard.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Thank you for coming in. Let's start with the claim by Alan Milburn that
0:10:11 > 0:10:15the Government does not have the time or capacity to do anything
0:10:15 > 0:10:20other than Brexit. That must be a concern to you as well.I think he
0:10:20 > 0:10:25is wrong. I share his concern about social mobility. When I was the
0:10:25 > 0:10:28leader of the Conservative Party used to make speeches about the
0:10:28 > 0:10:32British dream and the importance of social mobility. There is always
0:10:32 > 0:10:43more to be done but we have actually made a lot of progress. Can I give
0:10:43 > 0:10:45you some examples? We would all agree that education is key to
0:10:45 > 0:10:48social mobility. We have 1.9 million children now, 1.9 million children
0:10:48 > 0:10:53more than in 2010 in good or outstanding schools.His complaint
0:10:53 > 0:10:58was not that nothing has been done since 2010 but nothing can be done
0:10:58 > 0:11:05now.It is still happening. Income inequality is at its lowest level
0:11:05 > 0:11:12for 30 years. More taxes being paid than under the Labour years. One of
0:11:12 > 0:11:17the worst things that can happen to a child is to live in a workless
0:11:17 > 0:11:21household. The number of workless households has been shrinking. And
0:11:21 > 0:11:29implement is at its lowest level since 1975.-- unemployment. Theresa
0:11:29 > 0:11:33May, when she became Prime Minister last year, said this is a country of
0:11:33 > 0:11:35burning injustice.It is. There is
0:11:35 > 0:11:36last year, said this is a country of burning injustice.It is. There is
0:11:36 > 0:11:41always more to be done. You say it is in the past. This morning we have
0:11:41 > 0:11:44had an announcement that a considerable amount of extra money
0:11:44 > 0:11:48will be devoted in helping children facing mental health challenges in
0:11:48 > 0:11:55our schools. That is important as well in relation to social mobility.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Of course there is more to be done. I think quite a lot of progress has
0:11:59 > 0:12:04been made on social mobility and should not forget that.Let's move
0:12:04 > 0:12:09on to wrecks it. You will have read reports that she will offer a
0:12:09 > 0:12:14divorce bill somewhere between 40 billion and 50 billion euros, maybe
0:12:14 > 0:12:17slightly more. You said back in April that you would be astonished
0:12:17 > 0:12:21if the bill was anything like 50 billion euros for the you must be
0:12:21 > 0:12:32producer prize.We all started off with aspirations. -- you must be
0:12:32 > 0:12:37pretty surprised. I do not know what the sum will be. Whatever it is it
0:12:37 > 0:12:41will be a fraction of the amount we have paid into the European Union
0:12:41 > 0:12:45over the last 40 years and would pay into the European Union for the next
0:12:45 > 0:12:5440.You are now fairly relaxed about something around this mark?I have
0:12:54 > 0:12:58confidence in the Prime Minister and David Davis. I want to let them
0:12:58 > 0:13:04decide what is the best deal. I'm confident we'll get a good deal. I'm
0:13:04 > 0:13:07confident in the Prime Minister and David Davies.You know the more
0:13:07 > 0:13:12money we spend on the divorce the more bashes nevertheless many we
0:13:12 > 0:13:24have to spend on other things. Our guest last week felt it had to be
0:13:24 > 0:13:29delivered to keep faith in the process.In the budget a few days
0:13:29 > 0:13:34ago the Government promised more than an extra £350 million for the
0:13:34 > 0:13:41health service, running into almost £2 billion.They did not promise
0:13:41 > 0:13:45that in the budget?Over time, more money will be available when we are
0:13:45 > 0:13:50out. These payments, I don't know what the sum would be, are going to
0:13:50 > 0:13:54be spread out over many years. The annual bill will not be anything
0:13:54 > 0:14:02like that. In the end there will be more money to spend on the health
0:14:02 > 0:14:04service and other desirable things because we will not have to make
0:14:04 > 0:14:08this very large, annual contribution we were making.You have always been
0:14:08 > 0:14:12a committed Eurosceptic. Do not worry that the European Union seem
0:14:12 > 0:14:16to be having it their way? They wanted to discuss divorce before the
0:14:16 > 0:14:22trade deals. We agreed to that. The divorce bill seems to have gone up
0:14:22 > 0:14:25substantially since Theresa May was speaking in her Florence speech.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29They are getting what they want as we are going through the process and
0:14:29 > 0:14:35we seem to be capitulating.I do not think that is fair. There is a huge
0:14:35 > 0:14:40amount of posturing, which always goes on in negotiations. The
0:14:40 > 0:14:47approach of the European Union is in breach of Article 50. Article 50
0:14:47 > 0:14:51says the arrangements for the departure of a member state have to
0:14:51 > 0:14:54take into account the future relationship of that state with the
0:14:54 > 0:14:59European Union. You cannot take something into account if you are
0:14:59 > 0:15:03not prepared to talk about it. They are in breach of Article 50. That is
0:15:03 > 0:15:09the approach they have chosen. I am confident. I think we will move
0:15:09 > 0:15:14forward to the next phase, to pursue Tom's analogy, I hope they will not
0:15:14 > 0:15:27be injury time at the end of the first half and I hope we will get an
0:15:27 > 0:15:29agreement this month and then we can start talking turkey.Do you agree
0:15:29 > 0:15:32with the leave means leave letter in the paper today without demanding
0:15:32 > 0:15:34the UK be free to sign employment trade deals and note end to
0:15:34 > 0:15:40restriction is by the European Court of Justice?I share the aspirations
0:15:40 > 0:15:49contained in the letter.You did not sign it.No.Did they ask you to?
0:15:49 > 0:15:54No. I am not inclined to make demands at this stage. I think they
0:15:54 > 0:15:59should be allowed to get on with the negotiations. I have confidence in
0:15:59 > 0:16:02their ability to do so. I'm confident that in the end will get a
0:16:02 > 0:16:07good deal in the interests of the UK and of the European Union because
0:16:07 > 0:16:12there is a great commonality of interest between the two of us to
0:16:12 > 0:16:15have a good relationship, a deep and special relationship the Prime
0:16:15 > 0:16:20Minister has spoken of.You are trying not to be a back-seat driver.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24As a former leader of the Tory Party you probably understand how annoying
0:16:24 > 0:16:27that will be that you are an interested party entitled to your
0:16:27 > 0:16:32view on this. Iain Duncan Smith is in the papers saying how important
0:16:32 > 0:16:36it is to end the authority of the European Court of Justice. Is that a
0:16:36 > 0:16:45red line for you?
0:16:45 > 0:16:48I have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis and I
0:16:48 > 0:16:52think they will end up with a good deal.They're just going to pick up
0:16:52 > 0:16:59with our panel here. Listening to Michael Howard there, very carefully
0:16:59 > 0:17:04trying not to step on the Prime Minister's toes, but clearly he
0:17:04 > 0:17:08shares some sympathy with people who do want to put some red lines on
0:17:08 > 0:17:12her?I know Michael Howard is a forensic follower of politics, so
0:17:12 > 0:17:16I'm surprised he is completely confident about Theresa May
0:17:16 > 0:17:20delivering this, given that when she returned from the last summit, when
0:17:20 > 0:17:24she made her House of Commons statement, she was clear, to my
0:17:24 > 0:17:28surprise, actually, that during the transition, I am not surprised in
0:17:28 > 0:17:33how it turned out but I am surprised she was so clear, that the European
0:17:33 > 0:17:37court would hold some sway. It has two, because if the transition is to
0:17:37 > 0:17:43be effective, it means one way or another we will still sort of be in
0:17:43 > 0:17:45the single market and Customs union for a time and therefore the
0:17:45 > 0:17:50European court will hold some sway. And she said it. I saw Jacob
0:17:50 > 0:17:55Rees-Mogg's response of horror. But she did say it. And so that is
0:17:55 > 0:17:58already I think part of the equation. So the response of her
0:17:58 > 0:18:07Brexiteers on this will be pivotal. Iain Duncan Smith is not alone in
0:18:07 > 0:18:10being absolutely resolute that the ECJ will have nothing to do with
0:18:10 > 0:18:13Britain?Absolutely, and I think that the concern amongst the harder
0:18:13 > 0:18:20line Brexiteers is that this transitional arrangement is a
0:18:20 > 0:18:23continuation of the status quo, and that it might even slip. Now, the
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Prime Minister has try to be reassuring on that, and there have
0:18:25 > 0:18:31been indications it might slip a few weeks but definitely not longer. But
0:18:31 > 0:18:39I think that Brexit MPs want more assurances that this will not end up
0:18:39 > 0:18:41just being kicked into the long grass.Will those assurances be
0:18:41 > 0:18:44given?I don't think they will be. She is going to have to compromise.
0:18:44 > 0:18:50The other choice is to walk away. A perfectly admirable choice but it is
0:18:50 > 0:18:53a choice she needs to make. The interesting question is, what do
0:18:53 > 0:18:59these people plan to do about it? What does Michael Howard plan to do
0:18:59 > 0:19:08if the £45 billion bill, which he is now accepting, it would appear, the
0:19:08 > 0:19:12four MPs and some other quite senior party figures, what do they plan to
0:19:12 > 0:19:16do if the Prime Minister compromises? Will they vote against
0:19:16 > 0:19:22it, will they put their considerable legislative weight, which Michael
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Howard could do in the House of Lords, against it?Even though
0:19:25 > 0:19:30you're being very diplomatic today, is there a point at which you would
0:19:30 > 0:19:35speak out if something you saw as fundamentally unacceptable occurred?
0:19:35 > 0:19:40That is a very hypothetical question, Sarah!The idea that you
0:19:40 > 0:19:43might find something out of Brussels being unacceptable is hypothetical?
0:19:43 > 0:19:50Lets wait and see. I have said and I am in danger of repeating myself, I
0:19:50 > 0:19:55have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis. I think
0:19:55 > 0:20:01we will end up with a good deal. You would in expect in negotiations like
0:20:01 > 0:20:06this an awful lot of posturing.Let me into you because I need to ask
0:20:06 > 0:20:12you about one other thing before we go. Damian Green, you will know
0:20:12 > 0:20:16there have been more stories reported this week around the
0:20:16 > 0:20:18accusation that he viewed pornography on a Parliamentary
0:20:18 > 0:20:22computer, something he absolutely resolutely denies. If it is
0:20:22 > 0:20:25discovered that he wasn't telling the truth when he told the Prime
0:20:25 > 0:20:31Minister he hadn't done this, would it be a resigning matter?I don't
0:20:31 > 0:20:35know, that is another hypothetical question. Damian was my
0:20:35 > 0:20:38Parliamentary neighbour for many years, he has denied it and I
0:20:38 > 0:20:41believe him and I agree with those very senior figures yesterday who
0:20:41 > 0:20:46condemned the leaking of information by these retired police officers. I
0:20:46 > 0:20:52think that's a very serious matter indeed. Policing in this country is
0:20:52 > 0:21:04based on trust between the police and the public. And if we have...
0:21:04 > 0:21:08Michael Howard, thank you very much for talking to us.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11The EU has warned Theresa May that she must satisfy Irish demands,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13if the Brexit negotiations are to move forward this week.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15But ahead of a crucial meeting between Theresa May
0:21:15 > 0:21:18and Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow, it seems there is still work to do.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20Here's the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney,
0:21:20 > 0:21:26speaking this morning.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31There is no desire in Ireland to delay this process. But at the same
0:21:31 > 0:21:33time we have irresponsibility as a government to represent the
0:21:33 > 0:21:37interests on the island of Ireland, north and south. Let's not forget
0:21:37 > 0:21:40that next year will be the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Agreement, which is the basis for the peace process, and relations
0:21:44 > 0:21:48between Britain and Ireland on the island of Ireland. And we believe
0:21:48 > 0:21:54that as an island, Ireland is uniquely vulnerable and exposed to a
0:21:54 > 0:21:59potential bad outcome from Brexit.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01With me now is the Shadow International Trade
0:22:01 > 0:22:06Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Obviously, it is absolutely crucial that a resolution is found to this
0:22:09 > 0:22:13problem - what is Labour's position? I think you have to proceed here on
0:22:13 > 0:22:17the basis of principles. The first principle is, do nothing that
0:22:17 > 0:22:21damages the peace process. The second principle is, do nothing that
0:22:21 > 0:22:27averages the economy. And by that I mean both the economy and Northern
0:22:27 > 0:22:33Ireland, in Ireland as a whole and in the UK and Ireland as a whole.
0:22:33 > 0:22:40Now, that means that we have to... But that's the impossible conundrum,
0:22:40 > 0:22:42how to do all of those things at once?It can't be impossible,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45because we've got to do it. Of course it is being made much more
0:22:45 > 0:22:49difficult by the government's red lines on this. And the government
0:22:49 > 0:22:54has stated very publicly and clearly that it wants to come out of the
0:22:54 > 0:22:57customs union and the single market. And of course, what actually creates
0:22:57 > 0:23:02checks at the border is when you have regulator we variants and when
0:23:02 > 0:23:05you have product standards that are different. So, that means that you
0:23:05 > 0:23:09have to check what's coming in and out for any tariffs that you wish to
0:23:09 > 0:23:15impose. Now, that's why it has been, I think and my party thinks, foolish
0:23:15 > 0:23:20to have removed the structural possibilities which lie in the
0:23:20 > 0:23:25customs union or the single market, from what the government's
0:23:25 > 0:23:30negotiating position is.That's very interesting, because I can see
0:23:30 > 0:23:33clearly, and so can the Irish government, exactly how staying in
0:23:33 > 0:23:36the customs union and the single market would help resolve the
0:23:36 > 0:23:40question for the island of Ireland, but also it raises questions for the
0:23:40 > 0:23:44United Kingdom. It is also interesting because if we have a
0:23:44 > 0:23:47look at what you say back in July, who didn't sound quite as pleased
0:23:47 > 0:23:52about the single market, when you said we would in effect become a
0:23:52 > 0:23:57vassal state, obliged to pay into the EU budget and having even less
0:23:57 > 0:24:01sovereignty than we do now - you weren't so keen on the single market
0:24:01 > 0:24:03then?I am not so keen on the single market membership as opposed to
0:24:03 > 0:24:07being a member of the EU. Single market membership without being a
0:24:07 > 0:24:12member of the EU means that you do not have a say in the rules which
0:24:12 > 0:24:16you have to abide by.But we're leaving the EU, let's take that as a
0:24:16 > 0:24:21given.Let's talk about where we are going forward. I was setting out
0:24:21 > 0:24:27very clearly, and I don't think you would disagree with what I said, I
0:24:27 > 0:24:30was setting out very clearly the applications of leaving the EU in
0:24:30 > 0:24:33the way that the government had set out. And those implications are
0:24:33 > 0:24:38clear. I believe I set them out correctly. Where we are now is, we
0:24:38 > 0:24:43have to find a solution to this problem. Simon Coveney was actually
0:24:43 > 0:24:47earlier very clear in saying that you don't have to have a full
0:24:47 > 0:24:53solution in phase one, but there has to be the real expectation that
0:24:53 > 0:24:58we're going to be able to resolve it in phase two. The first thing that
0:24:58 > 0:25:01both sides need to say here is that we will look at the Common Travel
0:25:01 > 0:25:05Area, which has existed since 1922, and that should be part and parcel
0:25:05 > 0:25:07of the deal going forward. The second element that I think is
0:25:07 > 0:25:14really important here is to understand precisely what the peace
0:25:14 > 0:25:19settlement was, when in the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 we set out
0:25:19 > 0:25:23that there should be no security checks at the border. That was
0:25:23 > 0:25:26critically important. But of course, security checks in those days were
0:25:26 > 0:25:30in place because of the situation, the military, paramilitary
0:25:30 > 0:25:36situation. But when those security checks were taken away, because we
0:25:36 > 0:25:41were members of the single market and because we were members of the
0:25:41 > 0:25:44customs union, there were no additional customs checks. Now, to
0:25:44 > 0:25:47say that you order the Good Friday Agreement and have no security
0:25:47 > 0:25:52checks, with all the military paraphernalia that goes with that,
0:25:52 > 0:25:59does not mean that you cannot have typified customs checks. But those
0:25:59 > 0:26:03customs checks will only be put in place if the government wants to
0:26:03 > 0:26:08deregulate. My party doesn't. My party doesn't want to deregulate, we
0:26:08 > 0:26:15don't want to impose these terrorists. The government is in a
0:26:15 > 0:26:17bind here, because most of the key players around of Brexit want to
0:26:17 > 0:26:21deregulate, and that means there have to be tariffs, and that means
0:26:21 > 0:26:25they have to be imposed at a border. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday refused to
0:26:25 > 0:26:29rule out the possibility of a second referendum on our EU membership - is
0:26:29 > 0:26:34it now the Labour Party's policy that we might vote again on this?
0:26:34 > 0:26:37No, it's not.Why did he say we have not made any decision on a second
0:26:37 > 0:26:42referendum?That precisely says that it is not, because policy because we
0:26:42 > 0:26:48have not made a decision on it!You could make a decision Ameobi not to
0:26:48 > 0:26:51have a second referendum?Let's be absolutely upfront about this. The
0:26:51 > 0:26:56idea that you would have a second referendum, I think you would say
0:26:56 > 0:26:59you were going to have a second referendum. Like the Liberal
0:26:59 > 0:27:03Democrats have done. That would be to encourage the EU to give you the
0:27:03 > 0:27:09worst possible deal that there was, so that when you're then voted on
0:27:09 > 0:27:15it, everybody would say, we can't possibly go there. The key thing, in
0:27:15 > 0:27:21my view, is that it was always foolish, always foolish, to have a
0:27:21 > 0:27:2450% class one referendum. Because if you are trying to...That's what we
0:27:24 > 0:27:29had, we are now looking at the future. I'm talking about the
0:27:29 > 0:27:34future. It sounds like Jeremy Corbyn is saying it is a possibility that
0:27:34 > 0:27:39Labour might call for one?I am trying to answer your question. I am
0:27:39 > 0:27:43not trying to avoid it. When we go forward, if we were to have another
0:27:43 > 0:27:46referendum on the same lines as we have had, and it were to be 52-48
0:27:46 > 0:27:52the other way, what would that achieve hammered absolutely nothing.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56It would then be game on for a third or fourth referendum. The only way
0:27:56 > 0:28:00in which in my view you could possibly contemplate a second
0:28:00 > 0:28:02referendum would be if you had a threshold which I believe should
0:28:02 > 0:28:07have been there in the first place of a two thirds majority. But that I
0:28:07 > 0:28:10stress is not Labour Party policy, it is not something that we've
0:28:10 > 0:28:18decided, and Jeremy Corbyn articulated that yesterday.Have you
0:28:18 > 0:28:21spoken to Diane Abbott, who has written to two constituents in the
0:28:21 > 0:28:26past month saying she would make the case for a second referendum?Diane
0:28:26 > 0:28:30has already said that letter was poorly worded Pozzo, as she called
0:28:30 > 0:28:36it. I will not make any further comment on it.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, came in for a bit
0:28:39 > 0:28:41of flak recently when he admitted that Labour was preparing
0:28:41 > 0:28:44for possible negative scenarios, such as a run on the pound,
0:28:44 > 0:28:47if it wins power.
0:28:47 > 0:28:52Speaking on the fringes of his party's conference, he said
0:28:52 > 0:28:54he was carrying out "war game-type scenario planning" in the event
0:28:54 > 0:28:56of an election victory.
0:28:56 > 0:28:57John McDonnell, the man helping Mr McDonald.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59Well, the man helping Mr McDonnell do that is
0:28:59 > 0:29:00the academic Richard Barbrook.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03He's also the man behind 'Games for the Many' -
0:29:03 > 0:29:04the political gaming studio that produced CorbynRun.
0:29:04 > 0:29:10Ellie Price went along to meet him.
0:29:10 > 0:29:12You may have seen some of these during the election.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15In May Bot, the gamer helps the PM shoot, run and slide
0:29:15 > 0:29:16her way to dystopia.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19And then downloaded 150,000 times in the first week of
0:29:19 > 0:29:22the campaign alone, Corbyn Run, which sees Jeremy Corbyn shaking
0:29:22 > 0:29:25down bankers to pay for policy pledges.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27And it's one of the things the Labour leadership think can win
0:29:27 > 0:29:30them the next election.
0:29:30 > 0:29:38It put an idea out there that you can actually
0:29:38 > 0:29:42engage in politics in a way which is both a good laugh,
0:29:42 > 0:29:44enjoy the game.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46But actually it is quite stimulating as well.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48What happened was, that prompted ideas about a
0:29:48 > 0:29:49fair taxation system and the policies that
0:29:49 > 0:29:50were being launched.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52It's new creative way into ideas.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54Are you worried that the Tories will catch on?
0:29:54 > 0:30:00They most probably will catch on.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04But it's not just about the medium, it is about the message as well.
0:30:04 > 0:30:05Richard, what is happening here?
0:30:05 > 0:30:06It's a games jam. Right.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08People are coming together to make app games,
0:30:08 > 0:30:11laptop games, board games, getting ready for the local elections in May
0:30:11 > 0:30:12to propagate Labour's message.
0:30:12 > 0:30:13And is it really working?
0:30:13 > 0:30:16You have 50-odd people here, that's hardly going to change the world.
0:30:16 > 0:30:17No.
0:30:17 > 0:30:23I'm from the punk generation.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26The first time I saw the Sex Pistols, there were 40 or 50
0:30:26 > 0:30:27people in the room.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30Then, in the late-80s, I went to the very early raves
0:30:30 > 0:30:32and again there were very small groups of people.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34Yet, in both cases, these cultures, you start off
0:30:34 > 0:30:36with small groups of people and they can suddenly
0:30:36 > 0:30:37become a mass phenomenom.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40And, I'm reliably informed, it isn't just for computer geeks.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42Yes, we've got people here who are activists and have
0:30:42 > 0:30:45never coded in their lives and they're using tools,
0:30:45 > 0:30:49with which you can make games with no coding skills.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51I'm not sure I believe you but here is a challenge.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53Can you make me a game?
0:30:53 > 0:30:54Yes, I can.
0:30:54 > 0:31:03The challenge begins.
0:31:03 > 0:31:04OK.
0:31:04 > 0:31:05I'm done.
0:31:05 > 0:31:06That took less than half an hour.
0:31:06 > 0:31:07Can I see it?
0:31:07 > 0:31:09Yeah, of course.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12You go up to John and he says, "We're making games to change the
0:31:12 > 0:31:13face of politics."
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Then you go up to Jeremy and he says, "for the many,
0:31:16 > 0:31:17not the few."
0:31:17 > 0:31:19OK, so it's not exactly Super Mario but Labour are looking
0:31:19 > 0:31:22at another kind of gaming, so-called war-gaming.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24Considering possible future scenarios.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26Something John McDonnell talked about at the last
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Labour Conference.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34What if there is a run on the pound, what happens if
0:31:34 > 0:31:36there is this concept of capital flight?
0:31:36 > 0:31:38I don't think there will but you never know
0:31:38 > 0:31:42so we've got a scenario planned for that.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Richard is also part of the Shadow Treasury
0:31:45 > 0:31:48war-gaming team, who are expected to meet again in the next few weeks.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51If people are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions
0:31:51 > 0:31:53and their livelihoods, we've got to show
0:31:53 > 0:31:54we know what we are doing.
0:31:54 > 0:31:58This seems like common sense to me.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02From games jams like these, Labour hoped to create a campaign
0:32:02 > 0:32:04tool that will take them to the next level - Downing Street.
0:32:04 > 0:32:08If politics is a game, there are novel ways to play.
0:32:08 > 0:32:14And Richard Barbrook joins me now.
0:32:14 > 0:32:19Thanks for coming in. John McDonnell said the conference he was working
0:32:19 > 0:32:23with you are looking at different scenarios I possibly around on the
0:32:23 > 0:32:29pound. It caused huge amount of controversy. Can you understand why?
0:32:29 > 0:32:34I was actually. Surprised that people are surprised that political
0:32:34 > 0:32:38parties are not doing this. The military, the civil service,
0:32:38 > 0:32:43Corporation Banks, they all do this. The surprise was one would imagine
0:32:43 > 0:32:46that a Labour government neither hoped nor predicted there would be a
0:32:46 > 0:32:54run on the pound and capital flight. Given the fanaticism of the present
0:32:54 > 0:32:58government, probably when we get elected, the pound would likely go
0:32:58 > 0:33:05up. You need to think about these problems beforehand. There are
0:33:05 > 0:33:10potential difficulties to foresee. You can scenario plan for those. You
0:33:10 > 0:33:14can read about problems coming up ahead and you can talk about them
0:33:14 > 0:33:20but actually to experience in a game like atmosphere, the pressures of
0:33:20 > 0:33:24making decisions... You can identify problems and think about solutions,
0:33:24 > 0:33:29try out ideas. If it does not work you can reiterate again and again
0:33:29 > 0:33:33and again.When the Treasury does something like this, with very
0:33:33 > 0:33:37complex statistical models and huge amounts of data, can you feed it
0:33:37 > 0:33:45into a scenario?You can on that basis. What you can do more is test
0:33:45 > 0:33:49the team coming together and seeing how it responds under pressure. A
0:33:49 > 0:33:54good example, if you think about the National Health Service. If it were
0:33:54 > 0:33:57a flu pandemic they would have to think about how to reallocate
0:33:57 > 0:34:01resources. There would be sickness amongst staff, more people going to
0:34:01 > 0:34:05hospitals and you get together a group of people responsible for
0:34:05 > 0:34:08running the NHS. You put them together and put them through a
0:34:08 > 0:34:15three-hour simulation of it and that is the same sort of thing we are
0:34:15 > 0:34:17doing. We are looking at what happens when Labour gets in, the
0:34:17 > 0:34:21first 100 days in power, for the first budget, what would you do?
0:34:21 > 0:34:26Whether it is a run on the pound or something, you create pressures and
0:34:26 > 0:34:31problems for them to create the idea of how they have to operate as a
0:34:31 > 0:34:36team.Does that give you the opportunity to stress test some of
0:34:36 > 0:34:39the more radical policies that Labour came up with in the last
0:34:39 > 0:34:43manifesto like nationalising the water companies or electricity firms
0:34:43 > 0:34:55or something like that?It is only maybe in this media bubble in
0:34:55 > 0:34:57Britain that we think neoliberalism is the only alternative.Those are
0:34:57 > 0:35:00to mainstream for you to bother about?I said the initial simulation
0:35:00 > 0:35:04as any of the first 100 days we are looking at how we would put together
0:35:04 > 0:35:12a budget. That is not really what the focus is. It is making it
0:35:12 > 0:35:16happen, the decision-making process. That is what you are trying to train
0:35:16 > 0:35:19people for. The military does this, the civil service does this put up
0:35:19 > 0:35:26if you do not do this you are in a very bad position. The election, the
0:35:26 > 0:35:30Liberal Democrats did no contingency planning as to what would happen if
0:35:30 > 0:35:35there were a hung parliament but the civil service did. They ripped
0:35:35 > 0:35:39people into becoming a junior appendage of the Tory Party with the
0:35:39 > 0:35:45disastrous results that came from that.Is this the kind of
0:35:45 > 0:35:49discussions that a Shadow Cabinet would be having in the run-up to the
0:35:49 > 0:35:53general election anyway? That is that fundamental job of an
0:35:53 > 0:35:59opposition.This is a fundamental method of doing it. You are just
0:35:59 > 0:36:03surprised that a political parties doing this. If you are the military
0:36:03 > 0:36:08or the civil service you use this tool. You are just surprised... I am
0:36:08 > 0:36:13surprised that you are surprised. The other thing you are doing
0:36:13 > 0:36:18separate from the war game scenario, the apps and the games go further --
0:36:18 > 0:36:26which you say can further political engagement, are they really
0:36:26 > 0:36:35spreading a message?A good example is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.I have
0:36:36 > 0:36:38is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.I have played that. It is about mugging
0:36:38 > 0:36:42bankers in the streets.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45bankers in the streets.Why we have austerities is about the tax cuts.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49You reverse that and you campaign fuel social programme. In doing so,
0:36:49 > 0:36:52it shows that you are more successful in raising revenue can
0:36:52 > 0:36:54unlock
0:36:54 > 0:36:58unlock certain pledges and people join your campaign.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01join your campaign.Stay there if you will. I will come to the panel.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05Do you think this sounds like a useful, political tool, to sit there
0:37:05 > 0:37:10in a game like atmosphere and work hard to intimate radical programme
0:37:10 > 0:37:15for government?Yes. It sounds sensible and not the only thing they
0:37:15 > 0:37:20are doing. I can see them Maya city of John McDonnell was to speak aloud
0:37:20 > 0:37:26in any context about a potential run on the pound. -- naivete. To prepare
0:37:26 > 0:37:33for eventualities, prepare for the first 100 days by using all kinds of
0:37:33 > 0:37:39devices, is highly sensible.Even if it has been publicised to working
0:37:39 > 0:37:43with games developers.You kept
0:37:43 > 0:37:44with games developers.You kept going on about military, war-gaming
0:37:44 > 0:37:49exercises. I am co-authoring a book on defence at the moment. In one of
0:37:49 > 0:37:51the most important
0:37:51 > 0:37:55the most important recent war-gaming exercises we did with the Americans,
0:37:55 > 0:37:59we were wiped out within a day because our targeting policy was so
0:37:59 > 0:38:04outdated. I think the fear in the city is exactly that would happen
0:38:04 > 0:38:09economically because your economic policy is so outdated.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13policy is so outdated.I will let you respond to that and ask you
0:38:13 > 0:38:19another question as well.She is just the Tory Troll.
0:38:19 > 0:38:23just the Tory Troll.I'm not a member of the Tory Party. No reason
0:38:23 > 0:38:28to be impolite to people.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31to be impolite to people. If Morgan Stanley came here and said we want
0:38:31 > 0:38:33to
0:38:33 > 0:38:37to game out what a Labour government would mean for business, would you
0:38:37 > 0:38:42do that?I would not do it but I would be very surprised if they are
0:38:42 > 0:38:54not already doing that.Thank you for coming
0:38:54 > 0:38:57Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:38:57 > 0:38:58Coming up on the programme:
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Marred with resignations, suspensions and criticisms over
0:39:00 > 0:39:01transparency and leadership -
0:39:01 > 0:39:04Scotland's police force is in crisis.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07I'll be speaking to Susan Deacon, the new chairwoman of
0:39:07 > 0:39:09the Scottish Police Authority.
0:39:09 > 0:39:13Can she clean up the mess?
0:39:13 > 0:39:15And the latest talks over the transfer of EU
0:39:15 > 0:39:17powers to Scotland ended without a deal.
0:39:17 > 0:39:18Again.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary
0:39:20 > 0:39:21and Scotland's Brexit Minister.
0:39:21 > 0:39:27What's the hold up?
0:39:27 > 0:39:33A number of officers had been suspended from Police Scotland and
0:39:33 > 0:39:36there investigation is underway into their conduct.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38The Justice Secretary Michael Matheson says there's nothing
0:39:38 > 0:39:40to worry about and concerns raised over confidence in police
0:39:40 > 0:39:41officers are unfounded.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44But how does the media coverage of such a scandal affect
0:39:44 > 0:39:45the public's perception of the force?
0:39:45 > 0:39:47Well, joining me this morning, is the new chairwoman
0:39:47 > 0:39:51of the Scottish Police Authority, Susan Deacon.
0:39:51 > 0:40:01We should make clear, you join tomorrow morning. Clear Baker of the
0:40:01 > 0:40:07Labour Party said, "Confidence in the ability of the Scottish Police
0:40:07 > 0:40:12Authority to do its job is that an all-time low." That was before the
0:40:12 > 0:40:17latest round of thing started. Do you accept there is a serious issue
0:40:17 > 0:40:24about public confidence in both the Scottish Police Authority and the
0:40:24 > 0:40:29police at the moment?The SBA has had a fairly bumpy ride over the
0:40:29 > 0:40:32last few years. It will be important that they are seen to work
0:40:32 > 0:40:38effectively so it can play its part in driving forward, provide some of
0:40:38 > 0:40:47that...They seem to be working chaotically.Well, a lot has been
0:40:47 > 0:40:51achieved in a short period of time and I have to take issue with the
0:40:51 > 0:40:55idea that our police service is in crisis. Policing is improving. I do
0:40:55 > 0:40:59not doubt Freeman at the challenges that lie ahead both in terms of
0:40:59 > 0:41:08taking forward and developing our services and that the public,
0:41:08 > 0:41:12politicians and others can have confidence in. Come tomorrow, that
0:41:12 > 0:41:17is my job to make improvements in that area.What is the first thing
0:41:17 > 0:41:24you do to get it back?Has been so much attention on the inner workings
0:41:24 > 0:41:28of the authority itself, and isolated place to be. People have
0:41:28 > 0:41:32been working hard, I recognise that. Without question, there are
0:41:32 > 0:41:39improvements only be made. Parliament, Majesty's inspector has
0:41:39 > 0:41:44produced a report on this, work is underway, but I want to make we
0:41:44 > 0:41:48accelerate the pace of that improvement so we get the authority
0:41:48 > 0:41:53any place with the focus is not on what it does in terms of how it
0:41:53 > 0:41:57operates, but rather what it does in terms of helping the public,
0:41:57 > 0:42:02Parliament and others to scrutinise Police Scotland as it goes forward.
0:42:02 > 0:42:08Critically, what the authority does to help drive improvement and change
0:42:08 > 0:42:12in our police service.The investigations haven't been
0:42:12 > 0:42:18completed yet, but there is going to have to be a new chief.As you know,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21this has been discussed on this programme and an immediate, there
0:42:21 > 0:42:28are a number of different processors currently in place and I for 1am not
0:42:28 > 0:42:33going to comment on those. What I would say is that the Scottish
0:42:33 > 0:42:38Police Authority is one of a number of organisations that has a
0:42:38 > 0:42:41responsibility in this area, alongside the police investigations
0:42:41 > 0:42:47and review commission. It's really important going forward that we
0:42:47 > 0:42:51should at all the bodies involved in dealing with conduct issues and
0:42:51 > 0:42:56dealing with complaints only arise operate a system that the public can
0:42:56 > 0:42:59have trust in, but also I think is sensitive to the individuals
0:42:59 > 0:43:06involved in it. Issues of confidentiality are important, too.
0:43:06 > 0:43:12That was touched on in Holyrood this week.Let's take the officers who
0:43:12 > 0:43:17have recently been suspended. The Scottish Police Federation says it's
0:43:17 > 0:43:22not fair that they have been suspended, whereas the chief, is to
0:43:22 > 0:43:26is on special leave. There are reports this morning that Bernard
0:43:26 > 0:43:32Higgins, the assistant chief, the asked for a similar deal and was
0:43:32 > 0:43:35refused. I know Michael Matheson was on this programme last week
0:43:35 > 0:43:41explaining the processors.
0:43:41 > 0:43:46explaining the processors. As a matter of maths.
0:43:46 > 0:43:47explaining the processors. As a matter of Natural justice, it
0:43:47 > 0:43:50doesn't seem fair that these people have been suspended whereas the
0:43:50 > 0:43:56chief comes to a zombie.I am not going to comment on individual
0:43:56 > 0:44:00cases, least of all when I have not started in the post or been privy to
0:44:00 > 0:44:08the details of them. The commitment I will give going forward... In
0:44:08 > 0:44:14terms of the filling is well and functions both in life cases and in
0:44:14 > 0:44:20terms of developing beef system in the future. -- developing the system
0:44:20 > 0:44:28in the future.I know you don't want to comment...It's not about...The
0:44:28 > 0:44:31former Justice Secretary says the very least the FPA could have done
0:44:31 > 0:44:35is waited for you to take up your job tomorrow morning. -- the very
0:44:35 > 0:44:41least SPA could have done.Is not about not wanting to talk about
0:44:41 > 0:44:46individual cases, it's completely improper to do so when I am not even
0:44:46 > 0:44:50privy to the facts. I give commitment to look very carefully at
0:44:50 > 0:44:54the cases live and more generally, these are new systems and
0:44:54 > 0:44:59procedures. The body I am about to take over as chair of relatively new
0:44:59 > 0:45:04organisation and I believe we should always work to improve...I
0:45:04 > 0:45:07understand you don't want to involve yourself in individual cases, but
0:45:07 > 0:45:14will you have a look at this? Because the allegation from the
0:45:14 > 0:45:17Police Federation is that natural justice has been broken. If you
0:45:17 > 0:45:24determine that is the case, will you consider at least lifting the
0:45:24 > 0:45:29suspensions on these officers?Do you know, I think one of the things
0:45:29 > 0:45:35that has been a legitimate criticism of
0:45:35 > 0:45:40of the SPA is that they have not communicated effectively or it might
0:45:40 > 0:45:44not have been as open and transparent as it can be. Let me
0:45:44 > 0:45:49make a wider point. Going forward, I want that to change. I want the
0:45:49 > 0:45:53authority to be much more engaged and engaging so that people can see
0:45:53 > 0:45:59via the Prez of that authority what is going on in policing in Scotland.
0:45:59 > 0:46:04That is not the same as opening up heat and every individual case to
0:46:04 > 0:46:14day by day commentary to discussion in the press.I am not saying that.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18I have said already that of course when I go into that job tomorrow, of
0:46:18 > 0:46:24course I will look and be briefed on and will want to satisfy myself that
0:46:24 > 0:46:27I understand where things are at with each of these cases and
0:46:27 > 0:46:32particularly what the role of the Scottish Police Authority is going
0:46:32 > 0:46:38forward. You are right, there are a number of different agencies and
0:46:38 > 0:46:43investigating bodies if you have to do the job. I will not comment on
0:46:43 > 0:46:46life cases. I cannot comment on what has been done prior to my arrival in
0:46:46 > 0:46:53that poorest.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56that poorest. -- post.If he did look at these cases and decided
0:46:56 > 0:46:59those officers should not be suspended, is it in your power in
0:46:59 > 0:47:06the case of them or any other officers to lift the suspension?I
0:47:06 > 0:47:12will not deal in hypothetical.I am just acting if it's in your power?
0:47:12 > 0:47:18Anyone watching this programme in any organisation of any sort,
0:47:18 > 0:47:21private or public, will know that each individual in any matter of
0:47:21 > 0:47:27conduct is different. The idea that we can sit here and speculate or
0:47:27 > 0:47:31generalise about what could, should or might happen...I was just asking
0:47:31 > 0:47:41whether you had the power. In June, the high majesty's inspector two
0:47:41 > 0:47:46inspector of Constabulary said there was a fundamental weakness and what
0:47:46 > 0:47:50they were getting out was they didn't believe managers in SPA where
0:47:50 > 0:47:56properly equipped to give advice to the board. Do you accept that and
0:47:56 > 0:48:00what do you intend to do about it? That has been one of a number of
0:48:00 > 0:48:07reports that have voiced various criticisms about how the Scottish
0:48:07 > 0:48:11Police Authority could and should develop in the future. I think there
0:48:11 > 0:48:18are some very important observations made there. Change has happened
0:48:18 > 0:48:25during that time, I know that because I have been looking at it
0:48:25 > 0:48:32SPA from the outside in in considerable detail. As you know,
0:48:32 > 0:48:36alongside my appointment, there is a new chief officer. I think there are
0:48:36 > 0:48:42quite considerable responsibilities...Transparency is
0:48:42 > 0:48:48one of the things you want to look at?Absolutely.In the future, this
0:48:48 > 0:48:56was the issue in the case of my alley, if the board member of filthy
0:48:56 > 0:49:01disagree with the decision, they will be able to speak about it in
0:49:01 > 0:49:05public without those problems caused by -- if a board members feels the
0:49:05 > 0:49:15disagree...I want to see in all its business that it... There is a
0:49:15 > 0:49:20clarity for those looking into the organisation about were discussions
0:49:20 > 0:49:24and decisions are taking place and where things necessarily need to be
0:49:24 > 0:49:29considered in private. Any public body knows that you need to do both.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32Then it's understood and communicated well why things are
0:49:32 > 0:49:36being done in private.But forward members will be able to have their
0:49:36 > 0:49:43say?Of course.Well, you say of course, but that was the issue
0:49:43 > 0:49:51before.I can only talk about how I will conduct myself.Will you invite
0:49:51 > 0:49:57her to rejoin the board?We have a round of appointments coming up for
0:49:57 > 0:50:02it the SPA board in the natural random things and that is an open
0:50:02 > 0:50:07public appointments process.She would be welcome to apply?I hope we
0:50:07 > 0:50:10would have a wide range of applications and it's an opportunity
0:50:10 > 0:50:15to drive change but I want to see happen in the months ahead.Thank
0:50:15 > 0:50:20you much. You are saying this is a part-time job. Best of luck with
0:50:20 > 0:50:23that one is all I can say. Thank you very much.
0:50:27 > 0:50:28Now it's another tumultuous Sunday morning for politicians
0:50:28 > 0:50:31fighting the Brexit battle.
0:50:31 > 0:50:37Four board members on the UK Government's Social Mobility
0:50:37 > 0:50:38Commission have resigned.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41And leading Brexit supporters have written to the Prime Minister
0:50:41 > 0:50:43urging her to walk away from negotiations with EU
0:50:43 > 0:50:53leaders unless they meet a series of demands.
0:51:00 > 0:51:05It is that time of year, a season filled with love, goodwill and
0:51:05 > 0:51:14reconciliation.It is a standard night for hours.A cosy night.
0:51:14 > 0:51:20Roasting chicken. You are hereby pardoned.Remarkable things happen
0:51:20 > 0:51:26around this time of year, the arrival of the baby Jesus. The
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Christmas truce of the First World War, and the outbreak of harmony
0:51:29 > 0:51:34between the SNP and Tories. How different it was back in the summer,
0:51:34 > 0:51:40when Theresa May was accused of not listening to Scottish concerns about
0:51:40 > 0:51:48macro one. -- Brexit. Believe it or not, Christmas turkeys are good
0:51:48 > 0:51:53illustration of the issues at play. At the moment Brussels controls farm
0:51:53 > 0:51:58subsidies, under the terms of the EU withdrawal bill from the government,
0:51:58 > 0:52:02all powers will return to Westminster after Brexit rather than
0:52:02 > 0:52:07Holyrood. The Scottish Government complains that amounted to a
0:52:07 > 0:52:11Westminster power grab. As forward to last week and there was goodwill
0:52:11 > 0:52:15to all men as UK and Scottish ministers met in Edinburgh. Talks
0:52:15 > 0:52:20broke up without a deal although both sides progress had been made.I
0:52:20 > 0:52:24think we are closer to deal than we have been in the past few months
0:52:24 > 0:52:28because the mood music since September has changed significantly
0:52:28 > 0:52:33on the part of the Scottish Government. A few months ago,
0:52:33 > 0:52:37Theresa May wasn't even a human being, they found it difficult to
0:52:37 > 0:52:41discuss anything weather, the UK Government was being reckless.That
0:52:41 > 0:52:45or no is much more constructive. Scottish Government is not demanding
0:52:45 > 0:52:56all powers return to Holyrood.
0:52:57 > 0:53:02This is now about shared frameworks. It looks like the moving forward,
0:53:02 > 0:53:07talking about common UK frameworks, how those would be decided, although
0:53:07 > 0:53:11it is not clear to me that Wales and Scotland would have a lot of
0:53:11 > 0:53:15influence at the end of the date on how it will be decided, will they be
0:53:15 > 0:53:21given a veto, will we set up by EU style system within the UK, I do not
0:53:21 > 0:53:24think so.Whatever the arrangements, the Scottish and Welsh governments
0:53:24 > 0:53:33wanted tabled in two the negotiations. There is a role to
0:53:33 > 0:53:37further Scottish parliament. NCB MSPs can refuse Westminster
0:53:37 > 0:53:43permission to pass a law that impacts on devolved matters. What is
0:53:43 > 0:53:47known as a legislative consent motion isn't legally binding. As we
0:53:47 > 0:53:52know from the Supreme Court decision sometime back, there is no legal
0:53:52 > 0:53:58basis to veto that.Therefore it is political symbolism. I think the
0:53:58 > 0:54:01Scottish Government is realising the political capital book to be arrived
0:54:01 > 0:54:10from refusing to consent to one is limited.Theresa May's government is
0:54:10 > 0:54:18facing a Brexit battle on many fronts, not least the status of the
0:54:18 > 0:54:22Irish border. That will be one less headache to worry about.
0:54:22 > 0:54:23Graham Stewart with that report.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26As he mentioned, that meeting on Thursday was attended by
0:54:26 > 0:54:28Deputy First Minister John Swinney and Scotland's Brexit
0:54:28 > 0:54:30Minister Mike Russell.
0:54:30 > 0:54:38A little earlier I spoke to him from Portavadie.
0:54:38 > 0:54:47First of all, Mike Russell, the lock behind you is looking lovely
0:54:47 > 0:54:50tomorrow -- painter. The latest round of talks between the Scottish
0:54:50 > 0:54:55Government and the UK Government were held earlier this week. The
0:54:55 > 0:54:58Scottish Secretary said there was significant progress.Is that you're
0:54:58 > 0:55:04reading of it? We are making progress, but a great deal now
0:55:04 > 0:55:08depends on changing the withdrawal bill. The UK Government knows that,
0:55:08 > 0:55:11the bill is in the House of Commons tomorrow and it is vital that that
0:55:11 > 0:55:16bill changes. Neither ourselves or the Welsh government can do except
0:55:16 > 0:55:22the bill as it stands, because it undermines devolution, it will cause
0:55:22 > 0:55:26damage to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are making
0:55:26 > 0:55:30progress on the framework. We hope we can come to a conclusion on it.
0:55:30 > 0:55:36But it will require a change to the bill.On that there was talk of, in
0:55:36 > 0:55:40fact you seem to agree with the Scottish Conservatives were
0:55:40 > 0:55:43proposing that the Scottish Government and them and the British
0:55:43 > 0:55:47government could collectively draw up amendments to the bill, that you
0:55:47 > 0:55:52could all support. Are there any such amendments yet and if not why
0:55:52 > 0:55:59not?No, there are no such amendments and you would have to ask
0:55:59 > 0:56:01the Scottish Conservatives why they have not bought those forward. There
0:56:01 > 0:56:06are some amendments being discussed tomorrow, those are amendments we
0:56:06 > 0:56:11have drawn up with the Welsh bill. The point I made during the week
0:56:11 > 0:56:15when I appeared before the relative committee in Holyrood, if there are
0:56:15 > 0:56:18alternative amendments that achieve the same thing and they are brought
0:56:18 > 0:56:23forward by anybody, we will sit down and discuss them. But we have to see
0:56:23 > 0:56:27them, talking about them is not enough.The suggestion is, you were
0:56:27 > 0:56:33sympathetic to this, was that you are in the Scottish Conservatives
0:56:33 > 0:56:37would agree an amendment. Are you saying there are never were any
0:56:37 > 0:56:40tops, that you could not agree or that they never write anything
0:56:40 > 0:56:47forward?No, no. We are continuing to talk. Are amendments tabled and
0:56:47 > 0:56:52are sitting there waiting to be voted on, hopefully tomorrow. The
0:56:52 > 0:56:56reality of the situation if there is to be progress, the bill will have
0:56:56 > 0:56:59to be changed. If our amendments are not good enough with the
0:56:59 > 0:57:04Conservatives, then what I have said and I said it again during the week,
0:57:04 > 0:57:07is we will discuss alternatives of people have them. We would have to
0:57:07 > 0:57:12do that with the Welsh government, this has to be a multilateral
0:57:12 > 0:57:17process.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20process. We are not precious about the wording of amendments. What we
0:57:20 > 0:57:22have to do is achieve the results. We have to make sure that devolution
0:57:22 > 0:57:25is established and not undermine. Those discussions are going on, they
0:57:25 > 0:57:29are going with the UK Government and other parties, but we do not want to
0:57:29 > 0:57:34leave anyone in any doubt, if the bill is not amendment, there cannot
0:57:34 > 0:57:38be the progress that the UK Government wants.If you got
0:57:38 > 0:57:42amendments agree that you could support that changes the bill in the
0:57:42 > 0:57:49way that you want, with SNP MPs vote for the Brexit bill?That is a
0:57:49 > 0:57:52different matter. What we are talking about is getting the bill
0:57:52 > 0:57:57into a form which does not undermine devolution. This bill has a lot of
0:57:57 > 0:58:02distance to go. It is only in the Commons committee stage, it has
0:58:02 > 0:58:05still got the House of Lords to go to, there might be a difference
0:58:05 > 0:58:08between the Lords and the House of Commons. There are things in the
0:58:08 > 0:58:14bill that many of us thoroughly dislike. What we have focused on is
0:58:14 > 0:58:19primarily to do with devolution. That is proper because that is our
0:58:19 > 0:58:22concern on these matters. Whether or not the SNP vote for the bill is up
0:58:22 > 0:58:28to the SNP group. The issue of human rights which has not been addressed
0:58:28 > 0:58:32in the bill, the issue of protections for the environment has
0:58:32 > 0:58:36not been addressed, the issue of the Charter of rights has not been
0:58:36 > 0:58:40addressed.But what the UK Government would say... So we can
0:58:40 > 0:58:46give legislative consent. What they UK Government would say, what is the
0:58:46 > 0:58:51point of agreeing a few amendments to the bill if having agreed those
0:58:51 > 0:58:56amendments, you vote against it anyway.The question and issue here
0:58:56 > 0:59:03is, the two questions at issue here, can we give legislative consent? The
0:59:03 > 0:59:09constitutional crisis will deepen. Secondly, as a practical business,
0:59:09 > 0:59:14is the UK is leaving the EU and many of us think it is a daft idea, if
0:59:14 > 0:59:18the UK is living the EU, can we get frameworks in place that will it
0:59:18 > 0:59:25allow us to continue to work in areas without a cliff edge. It is
0:59:25 > 0:59:29about that cliff edge and making sure we have those frameworks in
0:59:29 > 0:59:33place, establish not through just this bill but future bills. It will
0:59:33 > 0:59:38be an accurate cultural bill in the comments. -- agricultural. Those
0:59:38 > 0:59:44other things we are trying to get plays. It is difficult to negotiate
0:59:44 > 0:59:49with the UK Government. We are doing our very best to be practical and to
0:59:49 > 0:59:54be positive.Do you expect to have an agreement which will satisfy you
0:59:54 > 0:59:59enough to recommend a legislative consent motion?At some stage? I
0:59:59 > 1:00:04hope that will be the case and we're working hard on that. I go back to
1:00:04 > 1:00:10my first answer to you, there has to be changes to the bill. That is
1:00:10 > 1:00:13non-negotiable. What those changes are and how they operate is still
1:00:13 > 1:00:18under discussion. I am hopeful we will get to the end of this process.
1:00:18 > 1:00:22We are spending many hours on it. But we will have to see those
1:00:22 > 1:00:26changes to the bill.Well we have got you here, can I ask you about
1:00:26 > 1:00:31something else, the children's Commissioner has reported today to
1:00:31 > 1:00:35be suggesting he might take legal action against Universal Credit. The
1:00:35 > 1:00:41argument is it infringes the human rights of children. Would you back
1:00:41 > 1:00:49any such action?I think we would be sympathetic to that action. The
1:00:49 > 1:00:54approach of the UK Government on Social Security and the wealthier is
1:00:54 > 1:01:00appalling. -- welfare. I know that as a constituency MP from my
1:01:00 > 1:01:04caseload. In all those circumstances anybody who are standing up against
1:01:04 > 1:01:09that and arguing for a practical resolution to an awful I a logical
1:01:09 > 1:01:14problem brought by the Tories deserves all the support he can get.
1:01:14 > 1:01:17Presumably of the children's Commissioner were to take legal
1:01:17 > 1:01:21action, the cost would have to be met by the Scottish Government?I
1:01:21 > 1:01:25think that is a discussion the children's Commissioner has to have
1:01:25 > 1:01:29with other ministers, it is not within my portfolio. You asked me
1:01:29 > 1:01:34what I thought of that, and I think the UK Government's approach is
1:01:34 > 1:01:37appalling. And I think this children's Commissioner is saying
1:01:37 > 1:01:41something that should be said. What he has said is there has to be
1:01:41 > 1:01:45changes. We have all been saying that for a long time. That is what
1:01:45 > 1:01:49the Chancellor announced in the budget. They do not seem to be as
1:01:49 > 1:01:52effective as they need to be.We will leave you there. Michael
1:01:52 > 1:01:58Russell, thank you for joining us.
1:01:58 > 1:02:00Now, also at that meeting was the Scottish Secretary
1:02:00 > 1:02:02David Mundell who joins me now.
1:02:02 > 1:02:08Can you hear me? I can hear you. I am hearing you loud and clear that
1:02:08 > 1:02:14the moment.We should remain people, you are supporting Paisley's bid to
1:02:14 > 1:02:22beat city of culture.I am. This is a big week for a Paisley, the final
1:02:22 > 1:02:27presentation is made and on the BBC show on Thursday night, we will hear
1:02:27 > 1:02:32whether Paisley has been successful. I do not know how much of what Mike
1:02:32 > 1:02:36Russell said that, even if you should agree amendments with the
1:02:36 > 1:02:41Scottish Government to the Brexit bill, which would take care of their
1:02:41 > 1:02:45concerns, the SNP might vote against the Brexit bill anyway?The SNP
1:02:45 > 1:02:51might vote against the bill, their position as I understand it is to
1:02:51 > 1:02:56remain in the EU. And if Scotland left the EU it is to take Scotland
1:02:56 > 1:03:01back into the EU. That is their political position. What we are
1:03:01 > 1:03:04engaged in in the discussions with the Scottish Government is about
1:03:04 > 1:03:11getting the devolution aspects of the bill right. We have put in a
1:03:11 > 1:03:15great deal of work on both sides over the last few months and I think
1:03:15 > 1:03:19that we are very close to getting agreement on exactly what should
1:03:19 > 1:03:24happen at each of the issues, the 111 issues on the list that was
1:03:24 > 1:03:28published, how they should be dealt with after we leave the EU. Where
1:03:28 > 1:03:31some of those powers and responsibilities will come to the
1:03:31 > 1:03:36Scottish Government. Some will be dealt with with informal
1:03:36 > 1:03:39arrangements across the UK and there will be a small number for which a
1:03:39 > 1:03:44legislative mechanism will be required. We are very close to
1:03:44 > 1:03:49reaching agreement on exactly how that distribution will take place.
1:03:49 > 1:03:53And that will give context to the bill. I think one of the
1:03:53 > 1:03:56difficulties with the bill at the moment is there is no context.
1:03:56 > 1:04:00People do not understand what is going to happen with the specific
1:04:00 > 1:04:04powers and responsibilities and I think if we can get that agreed and
1:04:04 > 1:04:07have a context, then I think that is the basis for moving forward.There
1:04:07 > 1:04:13was a suggestion, Jackson Carlaw and the Scottish Conservatives would be
1:04:13 > 1:04:18agreed with the Scottish Government with amendments to the Brexit bill
1:04:18 > 1:04:24which the Conservatives could then support. Mike Russell says that has
1:04:24 > 1:04:30not happened. Why has not happen from your point of view?What has
1:04:30 > 1:04:33happened is ongoing discussions about these issues, but part of it
1:04:33 > 1:04:38is to do with the Commons process. I know some people feel that that
1:04:38 > 1:04:44process is the best suited to every situation. But basically the bill
1:04:44 > 1:04:50will be in the Commons this week for a committee stage. What the
1:04:50 > 1:04:54government does at that stage in relation to a bill is listened to
1:04:54 > 1:04:59all the arguments that are made in relation to amendments, not
1:04:59 > 1:05:04necessarily accepting amendments at this stage, but then coming back in
1:05:04 > 1:05:07the New Year at what is cold the report stage of the bill, with
1:05:07 > 1:05:13amendments that the government can accept. And I would expect... I
1:05:13 > 1:05:16absolutely anticipate that that will be the process in relation to this
1:05:16 > 1:05:23Bill. So the meaningful amendments in relation to will move forward on
1:05:23 > 1:05:30that stage.
1:05:30 > 1:05:34that stage.The other issue is whether the Scottish Parliament will
1:05:34 > 1:05:38pass a legislative consent motion. Is it your hope that they will? Is
1:05:38 > 1:05:43it your view that it matters one way or the other?Of course it matters.
1:05:43 > 1:05:48I have absolutely committed from the start of this process is that we
1:05:48 > 1:05:52should have a legislative consent motion from the Scottish Parliament,
1:05:52 > 1:05:57that's why we have engaged fully with them and before the committee.
1:05:57 > 1:06:01The committee will produce an interim report and a further report
1:06:01 > 1:06:07on the Bill. What that committee does in Parliament matters and it's
1:06:07 > 1:06:11very important that we achieve the consent. We understand the issues
1:06:11 > 1:06:16and concerns that have already been raised, but of course the point at
1:06:16 > 1:06:20which the Bill will come before Parliament for this consent is
1:06:20 > 1:06:25likely to be around Easter when it's completed its House of Commons
1:06:25 > 1:06:30passage, when it completed almost the House of Lords passage. That may
1:06:30 > 1:06:34well be a Bill in a different format than it is today. That the Bill in
1:06:34 > 1:06:40which the Parliament will be giving its consent.If you've been having
1:06:40 > 1:06:44all these meetings, not just the Conservatives, Nicola Sturgeon and
1:06:44 > 1:06:50John Swinney were in London, why haven't you agreed anything?We are
1:06:50 > 1:06:55actually making a lot of progress behind the scenes in terms of the
1:06:55 > 1:06:59individual issues. I don't want this to sound as a flimsy excuse, but it
1:06:59 > 1:07:07is excluding the combo dated. -- it is extremely complicated. We went
1:07:07 > 1:07:18into the evolution to the Iraq evolution without having tangled up
1:07:18 > 1:07:25these issues. -- to the EU devolution. The Scottish Parliament
1:07:25 > 1:07:32are proceeding now in a constructive fashion. Nicola Sturgeon did indeed
1:07:32 > 1:07:37have a productive meeting with the Prime Minister, so we are making
1:07:37 > 1:07:40substantial progress. It is a difficult issue, but I am confident
1:07:40 > 1:07:46that together we are going to resolve it.We are running out of
1:07:46 > 1:07:50time. Let me change the subject if I can. We were interviewing Susan
1:07:50 > 1:07:57Deacon earlier who is about to become chair of the Scottish Police
1:07:57 > 1:08:07Authority. I'm interested in what you made of issues of confidence in
1:08:07 > 1:08:13the Scottish police of the last few months.I welcome Susan Deacon. She
1:08:13 > 1:08:16is well respected across the political divide and can hopefully
1:08:16 > 1:08:22bring a sense of direction to the SPA. For constituents like mine in
1:08:22 > 1:08:25Dumfries and Galloway who lost their own individual police force, they
1:08:25 > 1:08:29have not had confidence in the accountability of Police Scotland
1:08:29 > 1:08:34and they want their views and reviews of people across Scotland to
1:08:34 > 1:08:39be listened to in terms of how the police force is run, but they also
1:08:39 > 1:08:43want an effective police force that is dealing with issues as the arise
1:08:43 > 1:08:48in any place around Scotland. I hope she can contribute to making that
1:08:48 > 1:08:53happen.We will have to leave it there. Thank you very much.
1:08:53 > 1:08:56Now it's time for a look back, as well as forwards,
1:08:56 > 1:08:59to the week ahead.
1:08:59 > 1:09:03With me this week are the journalist Isobel Lindsay and former
1:09:03 > 1:09:09advisor to David Cameron, Ramsay Jones.
1:09:09 > 1:09:15Let's start with the police. There is an issue of public confidence. We
1:09:15 > 1:09:20can choose what words we use, whether we caught a crisis or not,
1:09:20 > 1:09:26there is an issue.I am not sure sure there is an issue of public
1:09:26 > 1:09:29confidence, there is an ethnic issue of media and political confidence.
1:09:29 > 1:09:40Many of the B haters... Many of the behaviours that appear to have
1:09:40 > 1:09:43triggered this have probably been going on in the individual police
1:09:43 > 1:09:49forces before and didn't have the same focus. I haven't heard much
1:09:49 > 1:09:52discussion about the fact that it takes so long in the police, not
1:09:52 > 1:09:56just at the top, but down at the bottom to deal with disciplinary
1:09:56 > 1:10:01issues and it is hanging over people, obviously very stressful,
1:10:01 > 1:10:05but it's also a terrible waste of resources and one of the things I
1:10:05 > 1:10:09would like to see Susan Deacon take on is why they haven't been doing
1:10:09 > 1:10:17the things more quickly.There is an issue about what has been made
1:10:17 > 1:10:22public. It is difficult to resolve. These men and women who had been
1:10:22 > 1:10:28suspended, we don't know... We do if we read the newspapers, because it
1:10:28 > 1:10:32has all been leaked, but officially we are not being told what they are
1:10:32 > 1:10:37being suspended for which leaves them with their reputations being
1:10:37 > 1:10:41left open to speculation. The other side of things is what happened with
1:10:41 > 1:10:46Ted Heath and Liam Britain, the allegations are not made public and
1:10:46 > 1:10:52then their reputations have been trashed.
1:10:52 > 1:10:55trashed. Where is the balance?Those individuals, whatever they have
1:10:55 > 1:11:00done, they do have rights and their employer has responsibility towards
1:11:00 > 1:11:06them as well. As individuals, those rights have to be protected. I am
1:11:06 > 1:11:09sure most of the public watching this will have very little idea of
1:11:09 > 1:11:16what has been going on. I think you are right here, there is an issue of
1:11:16 > 1:11:19trust in policing in Scotland, but that is largely within political
1:11:19 > 1:11:23circles and within the bubble of Scotland as opposed to within the
1:11:23 > 1:11:28general public of Scotland. The danger is that it breaks out beyond
1:11:28 > 1:11:32that and that trust in confidence in our police which is crucial to its
1:11:32 > 1:11:39function starts to road. I think in Susan Deacon now we have somebody
1:11:39 > 1:11:45with the tenacity and intellect that she will not be bounced into easy
1:11:45 > 1:11:47answers to simple questions, but will knuckle down and get on with
1:11:47 > 1:11:56the job and do what's right.Brexit, what do you make of the latest?
1:11:56 > 1:11:58what do you make of the latest?What are the latest developments? We can
1:11:58 > 1:12:13choose! Well, this is... This is the problem of Theresa May. It is our
1:12:13 > 1:12:17problems to win the impact comes through. I think from the Scottish
1:12:17 > 1:12:21point of view in terms of which Paris will get divorced, it's
1:12:21 > 1:12:28important indeed that these key powers get devolved back to Holyrood
1:12:28 > 1:12:35and then there is a negotiation about Corporation. If it's the other
1:12:35 > 1:12:39way round, then all the bargaining tools are at Westminster or
1:12:39 > 1:12:45Whitehall. If Holyrood get
1:12:45 > 1:12:49Whitehall. If Holyrood get the powers, then there is a bargaining
1:12:49 > 1:12:56tool.I notice, located, but the basic issue here that the assumption
1:12:56 > 1:13:00is that powers stay with London and then are devolved to Edinburgh,
1:13:00 > 1:13:03whereas the hall assumption in setting up the Scottish Parliament
1:13:03 > 1:13:09is the opposite, that powers would stay in Scotland unless they work
1:13:09 > 1:13:15specifically reserved for London.I think both these extremes need to be
1:13:15 > 1:13:24avoided. That is him yell at you. Surely the Government, the British
1:13:24 > 1:13:29Government, should have got it right? -- that is the realities.
1:13:29 > 1:13:36What is going on I think the degree of consensus in the interviews today
1:13:36 > 1:13:39showed that behind the scenes progress is being made.
1:13:39 > 1:13:45Accommodations will be reached. There may remain a few, but I think
1:13:45 > 1:13:50that clause of the Brexit divorced Bill will remain redundant.We will
1:13:50 > 1:13:52have to leave it there.
1:13:52 > 1:13:53That's all from the us this week.
1:13:53 > 1:13:56I'll be back at the same time next week.
1:13:56 > 1:14:01Until then, goodbye.