0:00:38 > 0:00:40Morning everyone and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43I'm Sarah Smith and I'll be bringing you your essential briefing
0:00:43 > 0:00:45on all the top political stories this week.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48She's done the easy bit, now comes the hard part.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51As we move on to trade and transition talks with the EU,
0:00:51 > 0:00:56just what sort of deal is the Prime Minister aiming for?
0:00:56 > 0:00:58The issue of trade across the Irish border is likely to dominate
0:00:58 > 0:01:01those talks, we'll speak to the Northern Ireland
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Secretary James Brokenshire about what he thinks a solution
0:01:03 > 0:01:06to the problem could look like.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Momentum, the group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn,
0:01:08 > 0:01:11is facing allegations it's trying to take over the Labour
0:01:11 > 0:01:13party, we'll investigate.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14And on Sunday Politics Scotland at 11.35am.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18The budget is coming, the threat of taxes getting fat.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22What will we get for all those extra pennies in the old man's hat?
0:01:31 > 0:01:34All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:34 > 0:01:40And with me today to try to make sense of is all, three journalists
0:01:40 > 0:01:42who are in full alignment with this week's political developments.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Tim Shipman, Helen Lewis and Toby Young.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47The cliche that a week is a long time in politics has
0:01:47 > 0:01:48never been more apt.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51As Theresa May first appeared to be the brink of collapse,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54and then claimed victory with a deal to allow Brexit talks to move
0:01:54 > 0:01:55on to the next phase.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Deal or no deal?
0:01:58 > 0:02:00The question that took Theresa May to Brussels not
0:02:00 > 0:02:02once but twice this week.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04On Monday it seemed it was all sorted.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Time to move onto talks about trade.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08Then in stepped Arlene Foster.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Northern Ireland must leave the European
0:02:12 > 0:02:16Union on the same terms as the rest of the United Kingdom.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18So lunch was left to go cold in Brussels as the
0:02:18 > 0:02:21PM rushed home to try and save the deal.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24The problem ran along the Irish border.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Did promises of regulatory alignment mean Northern
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Ireland would operate differently from the rest of the UK?
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Unionist alarm bells could be heard in
0:02:32 > 0:02:36Westminster where Theresa May relies on their support.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38While others saw their chance to tell their own
0:02:38 > 0:02:43bespoke Brexit deal.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45So back to the drawing board and a chance for
0:02:45 > 0:02:47Labour to stick the boot in.
0:02:47 > 0:02:48What an embarrassment.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Shambles.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53The last 24 hours have given a new meaning to
0:02:53 > 0:02:54the phrase coalition of chaos.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58There was a tricky moment for the Brexit
0:02:58 > 0:03:01secretary as he was quizzed over his economic impact studies that don't
0:03:01 > 0:03:06actually exist.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08So there isn't one, for example, on the automotive
0:03:08 > 0:03:10sector.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12On the automotive sector.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Is there one on aerospace?
0:03:14 > 0:03:15No.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17One on financial services?
0:03:17 > 0:03:20I think the answer is going to be no to all of
0:03:20 > 0:03:21them.
0:03:21 > 0:03:22Right.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24By the Chancellor admitted the Cabinet has not yet
0:03:24 > 0:03:25debated future European trading relations.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27The Cabinet has had general discussions about how Brexit
0:03:27 > 0:03:30negotiations but we haven't had a specific, er, mandate of the
0:03:30 > 0:03:33position.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37At Prime Minister's Questions Brexiteers reminded the PM
0:03:37 > 0:03:41they too had lines they wouldn't cross.
0:03:41 > 0:03:50Will she apply a new coat of paint to her red lines because I
0:03:50 > 0:03:53fear on Monday they were beginning to look a little bit pink.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54Talks through the night on Thursday and
0:03:54 > 0:03:55finally, white smoke.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57Tweeted by Jean-Claude Juncker's chief of staff
0:03:57 > 0:03:59to signal a deal had been done.
0:03:59 > 0:04:004am Friday.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02The red eye back to Brussels, the Brexit Secretary's
0:04:02 > 0:04:04face told the story of a long night.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09A tweak of the words and a deal agreed.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Sufficient progress has now been made on the strict
0:04:11 > 0:04:12terms of the divorce.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15Not everyone was happy.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17There are still matters there that we would have liked
0:04:17 > 0:04:19to have seen clarified.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21The whole thing is a humiliation.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23In a letter yesterday Environment Secretary Michael Gove
0:04:23 > 0:04:26said voters could change the deal if they don't like it.
0:04:26 > 0:04:34At the next general election.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38Let's unpack a week of remarkable political developments with our
0:04:38 > 0:04:42panel.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Tim, the papers are claiming a marvellous victory for Theresa May,
0:04:45 > 0:04:51but this is a problem of her own making she managed to dig herself
0:04:51 > 0:04:54out of?The government announced immediately they had got a deal and
0:04:54 > 0:04:59it took them two and a half weeks to nail it down. It is worth
0:04:59 > 0:05:03remembering that when she went off to Brussels to Jean-Claude Juncker
0:05:03 > 0:05:09who said, don't come here unless you are ready to go. Theresa May kicked
0:05:09 > 0:05:13him out of his office for an hour while she begged Arlene Foster to
0:05:13 > 0:05:17get in line and initially, it wasn't happening because they hadn't nailed
0:05:17 > 0:05:22it down. People say, why weren't all these civil servants and people who
0:05:22 > 0:05:27know about how to deal with these guys, engaged in this process? The
0:05:27 > 0:05:31separation between the Northern Ireland Office and Downing Street,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33the whip office was negligent and they should have been holding hands
0:05:33 > 0:05:38with the DUP and Tilly was taken over the line. Disaster was only
0:05:38 > 0:05:45narrowly averted. They were saying earlier in the week, this is a
0:05:45 > 0:05:49catastrophe and Theresa May needs to go.But she pulled it out in the
0:05:49 > 0:05:54end. We were talking about takeover plots, Theresa May might lose her
0:05:54 > 0:05:59job and now it is a victory.When you are talking about this, you have
0:05:59 > 0:06:03to divorce the theatre around it and the last-minute concessions, which
0:06:03 > 0:06:08will not end. The question is what happens when the Forge recedes.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12Everyone has something out of this deal because there is no clarity.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Arlene Foster said they wanted clarity. Both sides when they get
0:06:17 > 0:06:21the clarity will be unhappy, but the question is what they will do about
0:06:21 > 0:06:27it.Toby, both people on both sides of the Brexit debate in the Tory
0:06:27 > 0:06:31party, who are claiming they are very, very happy. They can't all be
0:06:31 > 0:06:39happy.I am not surprised the Brexiteers our content. There are
0:06:39 > 0:06:42various things the remain as predicted couldn't be achieved. They
0:06:42 > 0:06:48thought they would be a backbench rebellion. Now that looks like the
0:06:48 > 0:06:53divorce bill will sail through. A lot of Remainers thought the state
0:06:53 > 0:07:03is of EU nationals would remain uncertain for long time. This makes
0:07:03 > 0:07:08no Deal Brexit less likely that was always the Remainers best of
0:07:08 > 0:07:12reversing the result of the referendum.Now we're left with the
0:07:12 > 0:07:18question, what does full alignment mean. David Davis asked that that
0:07:18 > 0:07:18this morning.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20It means outcomes.
0:07:20 > 0:07:21It means...
0:07:21 > 0:07:23If I arrived in two cars, they are next
0:07:23 > 0:07:24to each other.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26Well, Northern Ireland is next to the Republic of Ireland.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Yes, and it will have next to regulations, it will be very
0:07:29 > 0:07:30similar.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31There will be some similarities.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33Again, the Prime Minister laid this out in her
0:07:33 > 0:07:35Florence speech.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37She said there are areas where we will want similar
0:07:37 > 0:07:39outcomes and we'll have similar methods to achieve them.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42There will be areas where we have similar
0:07:42 > 0:07:45outcomes where there will be different methods to achieve them.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48That's going to be true of a lot of product areas, a lot of
0:07:48 > 0:07:49manufacturing.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52There will be areas where we want different outcomes and
0:07:52 > 0:07:56we will use different methods.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01That was clear as mud, Toby, what do you think full alignment means?I
0:08:01 > 0:08:06don't think we should spend as much time as you seem to want to,
0:08:06 > 0:08:10discussing it. As Michael Gove clarified, it doesn't have any legal
0:08:10 > 0:08:16force. It doesn't have any binding, legal force. It hasn't got to the
0:08:16 > 0:08:19stage of the treaty. It might be difficult to unwind because it is
0:08:19 > 0:08:24the basis of an agreement. But nonetheless, it is not binding and a
0:08:24 > 0:08:31lot is left to play for.It is what got the DUP on-board, finding a form
0:08:31 > 0:08:36of words which could be what you wanted them to.People wanting
0:08:36 > 0:08:40immigration cut without the economy taking a hit. The same thing with
0:08:40 > 0:08:45the DUP, they want to stay aligned to prison, but they don't want their
0:08:45 > 0:08:49agriculture, Northern Ireland is one of the biggest industries, to take a
0:08:49 > 0:08:54massive hit from a hard border. So you are trying to reconcile two
0:08:54 > 0:09:00contradictory impulses. That Philip Hammond clip is extraordinary saying
0:09:00 > 0:09:03the Cabinet have a discuss where they think this ends up in the end.
0:09:03 > 0:09:10That is where the row will be. Number Ten is specifically briefing
0:09:10 > 0:09:18full alignment, so we haven't solved anything.It is a verb, he converge,
0:09:18 > 0:09:23I don't do converge, we have full alignment. The Conservative Party
0:09:23 > 0:09:28managed to get through a general election where they had half of
0:09:28 > 0:09:35their supporters hardline. This may help them keep the show on the road.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39We will be talking to all three of you throughout the programme.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41So it was the arrangements to avoid a hard border
0:09:41 > 0:09:43between Northern Ireland and the Republic that
0:09:43 > 0:09:45threatened to scupper progress in the Brexit talks.
0:09:45 > 0:09:46And there remains confusion over exactly what it
0:09:46 > 0:09:48is that's been agreed.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50Hopefully we can clarify some of that with the Secretary of State
0:09:50 > 0:09:54for Northern Ireland James Brokenshire.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Thanks for coming in. Can we go back to the beginning of the week and the
0:09:58 > 0:10:04discussions with the DUP. Where you involved in that?It is worth
0:10:04 > 0:10:08stressing this is a fast-moving situation. When the Prime Minister
0:10:08 > 0:10:12was in Brussels at the start of the week, the text hadn't been agreed.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16That is why we've got the conclusion with the text effectively now being
0:10:16 > 0:10:21able to go on to the second phase. Where you part of the back and
0:10:21 > 0:10:25forward between Number Ten and the DUP?I don't want to get into the
0:10:25 > 0:10:30details, but I have been involved, supporting the Prime Minister and
0:10:30 > 0:10:33making sure we have got sufficient progress and why we have the benefit
0:10:33 > 0:10:39of moving into phase two, which is worth we can solve the issues with
0:10:39 > 0:10:42relation to Northern Ireland.He was a significant failure at the
0:10:42 > 0:10:50beginning of the week to flight to Brussels without the DUP agreeing on
0:10:50 > 0:10:55the text.It was a fast-moving situation.Why go for lunch with
0:10:55 > 0:11:02Jean-Claude Juncker if there wasn't agreed text?It was to continue the
0:11:02 > 0:11:05discussions.The Prime Minister didn't think she had a deal on
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Monday, she went to Brussels knowing there wasn't an agreement with the
0:11:08 > 0:11:14DUP.The text wasn't agreed, as I have underlined on a few occasions
0:11:14 > 0:11:18already in this interview. It is how we have secured what we needed to
0:11:18 > 0:11:24do. We needed to give that assurance in relation to Northern Ireland's
0:11:24 > 0:11:27constitutional status in ensuring trade between Northern Ireland and
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Great Britain could remain unfettered. That is important and we
0:11:31 > 0:11:37can now solve this on phase two.The agreement said there would be full
0:11:37 > 0:11:41alignment with the EU in the event of no deal. It doesn't say anything
0:11:41 > 0:11:46how you will avoid a hard border if there is a trade deal with the EU.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50You are looking at paragraph 49 of the agreement. First and foremost,
0:11:50 > 0:11:56this is about securing a free trade agreement. Secondly, if that isn't
0:11:56 > 0:12:00sufficient you move onto specific solutions to deal with the unique
0:12:00 > 0:12:03circumstances of Northern Ireland. Only through an agreed outcome, do
0:12:03 > 0:12:08you move on to the issue of alignment, which I'm sure we will
0:12:08 > 0:12:12discuss further.Your preferred option is to have the free trade.
0:12:12 > 0:12:19Absolutely.Nothing has been solved on how you avoid a hard border
0:12:19 > 0:12:22between Northern Ireland and the republic if you have a free-trade
0:12:22 > 0:12:29deal.We were never going to solve this in the first phase how this
0:12:29 > 0:12:34agreement, we want to secure is firmly in Ireland's interest, given
0:12:34 > 0:12:38the nature of trade between Ireland and the whole of the United Kingdom.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42That is why we go into this second phase with confidence we can secure
0:12:42 > 0:12:48the positive outcome, which is the best way to solve this.The Irish
0:12:48 > 0:12:52Taoiseach says it is clear in which way it is going. He says we believe
0:12:52 > 0:12:56the UK and Northern Ireland will remain in alignment with the EU. Is
0:12:56 > 0:13:03that your understanding?I think he underlines we could come to
0:13:03 > 0:13:06different arrangements. It wasn't about the same, somehow we would
0:13:06 > 0:13:12stay within the customs union, the single market. We are not. The text
0:13:12 > 0:13:15says clearly, we are leaving and Northern Ireland will be part of
0:13:15 > 0:13:23that. Having shared outcomes may mean we may achieve that to the same
0:13:23 > 0:13:28or substantially the same way, or very differently.It cannot be too
0:13:28 > 0:13:31different if you have to maintain this idea you don't have a hard
0:13:31 > 0:13:35border between Northern Ireland and the republic. How does this allow
0:13:35 > 0:13:39you to strike free trade deals with the United States for instance, if
0:13:39 > 0:13:42you have got to maintain either alignment or come to some of the
0:13:42 > 0:13:44United States for instance, if you have got to maintain either
0:13:44 > 0:13:47alignment or come to some other border solution?Let's take a couple
0:13:47 > 0:13:49of examples. In relation to data daylight, have your prescription
0:13:49 > 0:13:57service nor those -- north or south of the border. How that can converge
0:13:57 > 0:14:05between Ireland and the UK. Things like agriculture.Let's talk about
0:14:05 > 0:14:09agriculture. If we were to strike a free trade deal with the US, they
0:14:09 > 0:14:15have made it clear we will have to diverged from EU rules on some
0:14:15 > 0:14:19agricultural standards, like chlorine washed chicken, how can we
0:14:19 > 0:14:24do the kind of deal the US will insist on and still maintain these
0:14:24 > 0:14:29border arrangements?We are yet to get into those discussions.They
0:14:29 > 0:14:34have been to London and they have said, if we stay too closely aligned
0:14:34 > 0:14:39with the EU we will be able to get a deal with the US.We're not going to
0:14:39 > 0:14:42somehow compromise our food safety standards to have a race to the
0:14:42 > 0:14:46bottom. That is why knowing the integrated nature of the food sector
0:14:46 > 0:14:53on island, is why we said we are proud to look at alignment with
0:14:53 > 0:14:58agricultural standards.That tie your hands. Why does the former
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Brexit minister himself say it will handicap our ability to enter into
0:15:02 > 0:15:08free-trade arrangements?We have difference across the United Kingdom
0:15:08 > 0:15:11over some of these devolved issues. It doesn't create barriers within
0:15:11 > 0:15:19the UK market. We are compliant with the same rules as the EU and it is
0:15:19 > 0:15:22positive decisions we might take. When it comes down to this issue,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26there won't be this race to the bottom in relation to standards.It
0:15:26 > 0:15:32is important to understand. You are tying the government's hands in its
0:15:32 > 0:15:37ability to strike the free trade deals that was supposed to create
0:15:37 > 0:15:41the optimistic post Brexit future proclaimed by the government.It is
0:15:41 > 0:15:45why we want to yes, secure the positive free-trade agreement, Abbas
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Bogue agreement with our EU partners, but equally, which we
0:15:50 > 0:15:53don't have, the flexibility to negotiate trade deals around the
0:15:53 > 0:16:00world so have the benefit of having to do that.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04The answer to this free trade deals is how you manage the border between
0:16:04 > 0:16:09the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, that has not been answered.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12We've set up the framework, we've not been able to have these
0:16:12 > 0:16:16discussions yet. That's why it was so important, where it was a really
0:16:16 > 0:16:20positive achievement that Theresa May secured by moving into phase two
0:16:20 > 0:16:24where we can do just that. To look at all these different elements we
0:16:24 > 0:16:28been working hard on with the EU that need to be solved whether
0:16:28 > 0:16:32through the free trade agreement, whether through specific
0:16:32 > 0:16:39circumstances to meet these issues, and protecting the ability from
0:16:39 > 0:16:47people to move from Northern Ireland's, into the Republic, really
0:16:47 > 0:16:50importantly underlining the significance of the Good Friday
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Agreement.The Prime Minister significantly said no deal was
0:16:54 > 0:16:58better than a bad deal. What this means in Brussels as if there is no
0:16:58 > 0:17:02do we have to stay in full alignment with the rules and regulations, is
0:17:02 > 0:17:07that the possible?Is the document states, nothing is agreed until
0:17:07 > 0:17:13everything is agreed.In the situation of no deal, nothing would
0:17:13 > 0:17:18be agreed and that is the circumstance in which this deal
0:17:18 > 0:17:22kicks in...?This document doesn't commit in that way. We are not
0:17:22 > 0:17:28contemplating a notable situation. The Prime Minister has frequently
0:17:28 > 0:17:32contemplated that, saying no deal is better than a bad deal.I think it
0:17:32 > 0:17:38says this in a good way, to secure this positive outcome that agreement
0:17:38 > 0:17:44with our EU partners. We will only do that if it is acceptable. Under
0:17:44 > 0:17:49the no deal statements that the Prime Minister has made.When this
0:17:49 > 0:17:53agreement says, in the event of no deal, we will maintain full
0:17:53 > 0:17:59alignment, you say this doesn't mean no deal?This document doesn't deal
0:17:59 > 0:18:04with no deal. That's what I'm saying. Paragraph five...So in the
0:18:04 > 0:18:08absence of agreed solutions the UK will maintain full alignment with
0:18:08 > 0:18:14the rules of the customs union? Paragraph five scissors and
0:18:14 > 0:18:20agreement being reached...So you need an agreement before you have
0:18:20 > 0:18:23absence of agreed solutions.It is about the three tiered approach will
0:18:23 > 0:18:27take, free-trade agreements, dealing with unique circumstances and then
0:18:27 > 0:18:31moving onto the alignment issues. It is this three tiered approach that
0:18:31 > 0:18:36will inform the negotiations. This is why I say this provides us with a
0:18:36 > 0:18:40positive backdrop to go into phase two, to get positive outcomes in
0:18:40 > 0:18:43ensuring there is no barrier between the Republic of Ireland and Northern
0:18:43 > 0:18:50Ireland. I take the positive viewpoint, around getting agreement,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54securing that bright positive future for Northern Ireland and the UK as a
0:18:54 > 0:19:01whole which is what that does.James Brokenshire, thank you. Tim, are you
0:19:01 > 0:19:07a clearer? On what has been agreed? Much less clear. What is the scope
0:19:07 > 0:19:11of this alignment issue? If you listen to government ministers, and
0:19:11 > 0:19:14David Davis earlier and James has said nothing that contradicts that,
0:19:14 > 0:19:19you are talking about big areas like agriculture and energy. David Davis
0:19:19 > 0:19:23said it would cover four areas, is put to someone in the Irish
0:19:23 > 0:19:26government has said and covered 142 areas, there's quite a big gap
0:19:26 > 0:19:30between them and we haven't yet bridged that intellectually, it
0:19:30 > 0:19:36seems.And not much clearer on what if there is no deal.We would crash
0:19:36 > 0:19:39out which would be definitely worse than a bad deal. An appalling
0:19:39 > 0:19:44outcome. I think the whole issue of these agricultural standards is
0:19:44 > 0:19:48fascinating because it reveals the difference between the average Leave
0:19:48 > 0:19:54voter and the average person on the right, the free trader who is not
0:19:54 > 0:19:58worried about safety standards and is fine with chlorine tipped chicken
0:19:58 > 0:20:02but we no one that free-trade Dale got bounced out of contention one
0:20:02 > 0:20:06thing that revolted people with the idea of lower animal safety
0:20:06 > 0:20:09standards, food covered in bacteria then washed in chlorine. So you have
0:20:09 > 0:20:14one wing of the Tory party who are OK with that and people who voted
0:20:14 > 0:20:21Leave who are not.Is it still on the table, this idea of no deal?It
0:20:21 > 0:20:27has to be, until we've concluded a deal, because otherwise our
0:20:27 > 0:20:30negotiating position is weaker. In some ways the way that we've managed
0:20:30 > 0:20:34to agree on what the status of EU National 's would-be and what the
0:20:34 > 0:20:38role of the ECJ would be for eight years after we leave, suggest that
0:20:38 > 0:20:43even in the absence of a trade deal or even a transition deal being
0:20:43 > 0:20:46successfully negotiated we could nonetheless put a minimal deal in
0:20:46 > 0:20:49place which could guarantee the rights of UK National is here and
0:20:49 > 0:20:55British nationals in Europe. So in that way it makes no deal a little
0:20:55 > 0:21:00less unpalatable but I think we will still get a deal.Thanks for that.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02Well, discussions of what the government wants its final
0:21:02 > 0:21:05deal to look like also brings into focus what Labour's
0:21:05 > 0:21:06plans would be.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08Speaking this morning Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer
0:21:08 > 0:21:12argued that Britain should remain as close to the EU as possible.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15How we negotiate that agreement with the EU is a matter for
0:21:15 > 0:21:16negotiation.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19It doesn't mean it's cut and paste, but we do have a
0:21:19 > 0:21:23choice, do we want to stay aligned so we can trade successfully or do
0:21:23 > 0:21:24we want to tear apart?
0:21:24 > 0:21:26And I say we should stay aligned.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28We are talking about what sort of Britain we are
0:21:28 > 0:21:31going to be and what the next 40 or 50 years might look like.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33I don't think anybody voted to make it
0:21:33 > 0:21:37harder to trade with Europe.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40Emily Thornberry, Labour's shadow foreign affairs spokesperson, is
0:21:40 > 0:21:44with me now. Thank you for coming in. That was Keir Starmer this
0:21:44 > 0:21:49morning. I don't want to put words into his mouth or yours but I
0:21:49 > 0:21:52interpret that as saying, we are not staying in the single market, that
0:21:52 > 0:21:55is not the Labour position but we want to maintain many of the
0:21:55 > 0:22:00arrangements we have with the single market. Is that right?We've always
0:22:00 > 0:22:04said we have to accept the results of the referendum, we have some
0:22:04 > 0:22:08tests to be abided by to get a good deal so we need to be able to get
0:22:08 > 0:22:12the full advantage of access to the single market and the customs union.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16To achieve that what Keir Starmer seemed to be saying was that was a
0:22:16 > 0:22:21closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU, possibly even
0:22:21 > 0:22:24pay for access to the free market and while free movement of people
0:22:24 > 0:22:28wouldn't he said they should be easy movement of people from the UK to
0:22:28 > 0:22:31the EU and vice versa. Is that really respecting the referendum
0:22:31 > 0:22:36result?We have to leave the European Union that there's no
0:22:36 > 0:22:41reason why we don't need go a long way. It would not be respecting the
0:22:41 > 0:22:44referendum and the sentiment that has expressed during the referendum
0:22:44 > 0:22:49if we did not move, after leaving the European Union, to a system
0:22:49 > 0:22:52where we had fair rules and managed migration, so people could easily
0:22:52 > 0:22:58travel across Europe and those that we need to have an ox economy - this
0:22:58 > 0:23:07we need an our economy can stay and that will help us.If we are staying
0:23:07 > 0:23:10closely aligned to the rules and regulations of the EU why we have no
0:23:10 > 0:23:15say in the formation of those rules how is that taking back control?
0:23:15 > 0:23:20We're going to leave and it seems to us that people wanted to leave, they
0:23:20 > 0:23:24wanted some form of control over migration and fair rules and managed
0:23:24 > 0:23:27migration is what we want but they did not vote to lose their jobs
0:23:27 > 0:23:32offer their neighbours to lose their jobs. We need to prioritise the
0:23:32 > 0:23:35economy and trade when it came to negotiations and people should be in
0:23:35 > 0:23:40no doubt that our biggest trading partner is the European Union. It
0:23:40 > 0:23:43would be economically ridiculous for us to march off into the Atlantic
0:23:43 > 0:23:48and say, we are turning our backs on the European Union. To go into deals
0:23:48 > 0:23:53with them we'd need the same rules when it came to our exporting of
0:23:53 > 0:23:57carrots or anything else. If you want to export vacuum cleaners to
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Europe they need to have the same safety standards as the rest of
0:24:00 > 0:24:06Europe.Do you think people who voted to leave will be happy that we
0:24:06 > 0:24:11would follow and mirror the rules and regulations of EU when we have
0:24:11 > 0:24:16no say in their creation now, we become will takers and not makers?
0:24:16 > 0:24:22What we've said is that we need an interim period when we negotiate
0:24:22 > 0:24:25properly and have a long-standing relationship with EU. When it comes
0:24:25 > 0:24:29to exporting goods clearly we need the same standards and don't want to
0:24:29 > 0:24:33undercut European standards, nobody wants and implement controls, we
0:24:33 > 0:24:37need all these things to be less in Britain than in the rest of Europe,
0:24:37 > 0:24:42well, some Tories do but we don't and we are clear about that.That
0:24:42 > 0:24:46would constrain our ability to sign free trade deals with other
0:24:46 > 0:24:51countries. The more closely aligned we stay with EU the less movement we
0:24:51 > 0:24:57will have to sign a new deal with the USA for example.What we need is
0:24:57 > 0:25:00a custom-built arrangement between Britain and the rest of Europe. We'd
0:25:00 > 0:25:04need to be in a form of the customs union and closely aligned to the
0:25:04 > 0:25:08single market and that might give us room to make the that is something
0:25:08 > 0:25:12we need to be involved in negotiation...That is clearly of
0:25:12 > 0:25:17secondary importance to you, the ability to strike new deals with
0:25:17 > 0:25:22third countries.We've always been pragmatic, most of our trade has
0:25:22 > 0:25:25been with EU. We're just stating a fact and we shouldn't put the kibosh
0:25:25 > 0:25:30on that.Are you happy with the agreement Theresa May struck this
0:25:30 > 0:25:35week?Really don't understand it. I've looked at it, I don't
0:25:35 > 0:25:41understand. I think probably what she is doing is she's rubbed at some
0:25:41 > 0:25:44of her red lines, and that's good because you shouldn't go into
0:25:44 > 0:25:48negotiations with hard red lines like she has. I don't understand how
0:25:48 > 0:25:52on one hand she is saying she's going to align and on the other hand
0:25:52 > 0:25:56will be out of the single market on the customs union. It doesn't really
0:25:56 > 0:26:01make any sense to me.I thought that was the position you said Labour
0:26:01 > 0:26:04win, leaving the single market on the customs union but wanting to
0:26:04 > 0:26:09stay aligned to Europe and is regulations...They say they've
0:26:09 > 0:26:14swept any form of customs union of the table. That's what I understand.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17She is swept away any suggestion that the European Court of Justice
0:26:17 > 0:26:20would have anything to do with any rules. She seems to be busily
0:26:20 > 0:26:24putting them back on the table again. That's probably a good thing.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28What a waste of time. Because wouldn't it have been good to have
0:26:28 > 0:26:31began on a pragmatic, realistic basis and we might have got further
0:26:31 > 0:26:36than we have now. We are running out of time.What is Labour's answer to
0:26:36 > 0:26:43the question of the border between the northern Ireland and the
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Republic of Ireland, how do you avoid hardboard?The further we go
0:26:45 > 0:26:49from the EU, the harder it is to have a soft border. What we have
0:26:49 > 0:26:52said without that a form of customs union is a viable option. Melbourne
0:26:52 > 0:26:57has come up with any other suggestion.This idea, it says in
0:26:57 > 0:27:01the agreement that was struck with EU in the absence of any other
0:27:01 > 0:27:05agreement, this idea that we would maintain the full alignment with the
0:27:05 > 0:27:08rules and regulations come you are satisfied that it works well for the
0:27:08 > 0:27:13UK and EU and solves the border question?Of course there has to be
0:27:13 > 0:27:17a form of alignment, of course the European Court of Justice need staff
0:27:17 > 0:27:20an ongoing relationship with British justice in the way we put forward
0:27:20 > 0:27:26rules when we are working with the rest of the EU. Why have we denied
0:27:26 > 0:27:32at all this time, it is self-evident and continues to be so.It is
0:27:32 > 0:27:36proposed that an amendment be put forward that would give MPs a
0:27:36 > 0:27:40meaningful vote on this while there is still time for more negotiation
0:27:40 > 0:27:43rather than at the end of negotiations, will Labour support
0:27:43 > 0:27:48that?We have always said this. From the outset we have said, why should
0:27:48 > 0:27:51parliaments across the rest of Europe have a vote on this, and the
0:27:51 > 0:27:56European Parliament have a vote, the people of Walloons will have a lot
0:27:56 > 0:28:01in it, why not the British people? That has to be a meaningful vote. --
0:28:01 > 0:28:05one at the British Parliament. They will have to factor in what the
0:28:05 > 0:28:08British Parliament thinks. And many people in the British Parliament
0:28:08 > 0:28:11will not accept no deal, for example. If they think they are
0:28:11 > 0:28:14going to come to the British Parliament with no deal is an option
0:28:14 > 0:28:17they have another think coming. There's another amendment to the Lib
0:28:17 > 0:28:22Dems want, to put forward the option of remaining in the single market.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Vince Cable has said it is specifically designed to flush out
0:28:26 > 0:28:29the Labour Party by asking straight out will you support this amendment
0:28:29 > 0:28:33or not with the option of staying in the single market. How would Labour
0:28:33 > 0:28:40vote on that?We are leaving the EU, we need a custom made deal with the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44EU. We need to be able to respect the views of the British people as
0:28:44 > 0:28:47expressed in the referendum and one debate was about ensuring that we
0:28:47 > 0:28:51have more control of migration. We've been told that the four
0:28:51 > 0:28:54freedoms mean we can't stay in the single market as it currently is so
0:28:54 > 0:28:58we need a different deal. Those other things we should have focused
0:28:58 > 0:29:03on rack from the outset.Emily Thornberry, thank you very much for
0:29:03 > 0:29:05coming in this morning.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08There have been a number of reports in the press recently accusing
0:29:08 > 0:29:10the Labour pressure group Momentum of forcing serving Labour
0:29:10 > 0:29:12councillors off the ballot paper for re-election in favour
0:29:12 > 0:29:13of their own candidates.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16Sources close to Momentum argue they are simply helping to reflect
0:29:16 > 0:29:18the new make-up of the Labour Party.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20So is there any truth in the allegations?
0:29:20 > 0:29:29Elizabeth Glinka has been to Brighton to find out.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32They say to keep your friends close and your
0:29:32 > 0:29:36enemies closer, and in the
0:29:36 > 0:29:37Labour Party in Brighton they are
0:29:37 > 0:29:45very close indeed. Here, as in many other parts of the country,
0:29:45 > 0:29:50there are suggestions that Momentum is attempting to seize control and
0:29:50 > 0:29:52ultimately replace sitting councillors with candidates of their
0:29:52 > 0:29:57own choosing.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59Two weeks ago Momentum won all nine positions on the
0:29:59 > 0:30:01committee which will organise the selection of candidates
0:30:01 > 0:30:03for the next City Council elections in 2019.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Local activists have spoken about installing the first Socialist
0:30:05 > 0:30:07council in the city, the implication being that the current Labour
0:30:07 > 0:30:09council is not quite socialist enough.
0:30:09 > 0:30:17If you talk to people from Momentum, they will say to you, we
0:30:17 > 0:30:19have brought in all these new members, they're
0:30:19 > 0:30:20full of enthusiasm,
0:30:20 > 0:30:30why shouldn't we have our people moving in to take over the party,
0:30:30 > 0:30:44we are the future of the party.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Is there bullying going on in Brighton?
0:30:46 > 0:30:48I think there has been.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50And I think that has predominantly been from people
0:30:50 > 0:30:52outside the Labour Party and it is not acceptable.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54Wouldn't be accurate to say that Momentum members and
0:30:54 > 0:30:57some of the new Labour Party members are mobilising against the existing
0:30:57 > 0:30:58councillors?
0:30:58 > 0:31:01I think there has been some chatter about that and a lot of
0:31:01 > 0:31:05that has been from those who are not in the party at the present time.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07Once people are not members of the Labour Party,
0:31:07 > 0:31:09they can't share our values and therefore they should be
0:31:09 > 0:31:11excluded from Momentum.
0:31:11 > 0:31:21And that would be a way to unify the party in
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Brighton and Hove and around the country.
0:31:23 > 0:31:32As a former minister in the Blair government you might expect of
0:31:32 > 0:31:35a captain to take that view.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37I spoke to a number of Labour Party
0:31:37 > 0:31:39members who said they had experienced intimidation and that
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Momentum was authoritarian and brutal to existing councillors.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43None would agree to appear on camera.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46While I was in Brighton a Momentum activist posted this video and
0:31:46 > 0:31:47social media.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49The faces of three Labour councillors including the
0:31:49 > 0:31:50council leader had been superimposed.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52Something I put to a local Momentum organiser Greg
0:31:52 > 0:31:54Hadfield, who is currently suspended from the Labour Party.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57I haven't seen it so I'm not going to comment on it.
0:31:57 > 0:31:58And you think that is?
0:31:58 > 0:32:00I'm happy to get back to you and have
0:32:00 > 0:32:02considered view but I haven't seen it.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05I have spoken to a number of people across the party in Brighton
0:32:05 > 0:32:09and Hove, some of them tell me that Momentum are using bullying tactics,
0:32:09 > 0:32:12that the party is very divided and they feel not able to speak up
0:32:12 > 0:32:14and air their views.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17They are saying that on the record?
0:32:17 > 0:32:21Because I think that's shocking smears.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24What we have seen in Brighton and Hove in the
0:32:24 > 0:32:26last 18 months is a massive upsurge in democratic, decent democratic
0:32:26 > 0:32:31engagement with party members.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36Anyone who says that, first of all they are lying,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39but also they don't have the best interests of the party.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41Would you like to get rid of the current
0:32:41 > 0:32:43cohort of councillors in Brighton and Hove,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45the Labour councillors.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48I would love it for members to elect the best
0:32:48 > 0:32:50representatives of this Labour Party that they can.
0:32:50 > 0:32:57If that is bullying, if that is not democratic, if that
0:32:57 > 0:32:59is deselecting, then people saying that have a very
0:32:59 > 0:33:01strange view of democracy.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04Overnight Labour suspended the member who posted the video.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07He denied was anti-Semitic and issued an apology.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11Away from Brighton the deselection of Labour
0:33:11 > 0:33:13councillors in Haringey and in other London boroughs has
0:33:13 > 0:33:17made the national press.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19There have been deselection is in other places as
0:33:19 > 0:33:21well including Hastings and by just aware the
0:33:21 > 0:33:24former mayor is among the casualties.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27I think we need a cultural message from the top.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Momentum clearly have a place in the Labour movement now
0:33:29 > 0:33:31although they are not affiliated with the party
0:33:31 > 0:33:33formally they have brought energy and ideas to the party.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35That is no bad thing.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37But Jeremy Corbyn is not just the party leader but the
0:33:37 > 0:33:40figurehead of momentum, he has to send a message
0:33:40 > 0:33:42to all his troops, if you like around the country,
0:33:42 > 0:33:44saying perhaps, not in my name.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46Having spoken to people from across the
0:33:46 > 0:33:52Labour Party in Brighton, there are those that
0:33:52 > 0:33:55will tell you that the party is more united than ever before
0:33:55 > 0:33:57and they are incredibly positive about the future.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59But on the other side even people who
0:33:59 > 0:34:02describe themselves as being on the left say they feel despondent
0:34:02 > 0:34:08and that the atmosphere can only be described as toxic.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Well we asked Momentum if someone could come on to discuss the issues
0:34:11 > 0:34:18raised in that film but no one was available.
0:34:18 > 0:34:25Never mind, we have our panel of experts. Helen, is it perfectly
0:34:25 > 0:34:30legitimate for momentum to get their own candidate selected. They are in
0:34:30 > 0:34:35the ascendancy now, so why shouldn't they have more candidates?They have
0:34:35 > 0:34:42a legitimate position and they are entitled to push it forward. But it
0:34:42 > 0:34:46is controlled by two Private limited companies and the data is in the
0:34:46 > 0:34:54hands of one man. They talk about progress and the Fabians, it is
0:34:54 > 0:34:58around Jeremy Corbyn as a person. The third thing, they are very
0:34:58 > 0:35:02successful in terms of making viral videos and they are an effective,
0:35:02 > 0:35:07organising force and that is why people are so worried.Momentum do
0:35:07 > 0:35:11show the way politics is going, they are fantastic at mobilising people,
0:35:11 > 0:35:16reaching their supporters and doing it in different ways, are centrists
0:35:16 > 0:35:20in the Labour Party frightened by their success?Definitely and that
0:35:20 > 0:35:23is why they haven't been able to put up a better fight. To claim this is
0:35:23 > 0:35:27an undemocratic, because
0:35:27 > 0:35:31an undemocratic, because votes have been taken before Momentum takes
0:35:31 > 0:35:32been taken before Momentum takes control like the Brighton & Hove
0:35:32 > 0:35:39Albion are to, is absurd. It isn't democratic because a small neo-Nazis
0:35:39 > 0:35:46calls will be holding the Labour Party to ransom. It doesn't matter
0:35:46 > 0:35:47Party to ransom. It doesn't matter whether they can sit out at these
0:35:47 > 0:35:51meetings until
0:35:51 > 0:35:54meetings until 2am until moderates have to go home. It doesn't make it
0:35:54 > 0:35:59a takeover, it is
0:35:59 > 0:36:03a takeover, it is definitely not democratic as it would be if
0:36:03 > 0:36:06democratic as it would be if Britain First took over the Labour Party.Is
0:36:06 > 0:36:10that fair?The
0:36:10 > 0:36:14that fair?The problem is calling it tiny. It isn't tiny any more.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17tiny. It isn't tiny any more. The last lot of people campaigning on
0:36:17 > 0:36:20the streets for Labour were involved in Momentum. If you look at their
0:36:20 > 0:36:27social media, 60% of voters saw a Momentum
0:36:27 > 0:36:29Momentum video on their Facebook feeds during the general election
0:36:29 > 0:36:35and Momentum spent £2000 on it. Everything else spread virally.
0:36:35 > 0:36:41There is a popularity and yes they are a bunch of old leftie Marxists,
0:36:41 > 0:36:45but on the other side there is people
0:36:45 > 0:36:50people cheering the Jeremy Corbyn, they have come together and it is a
0:36:50 > 0:36:56powerful force and no wonder the Blairites and motorists are worried.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00Blairites and motorists are worried. It is a form of bullying?
0:37:00 > 0:37:03It is a form of bullying?You have these optimistic people who want to
0:37:03 > 0:37:07change the world, tied up with a group of people who are effective
0:37:07 > 0:37:14organisers and behave in a substandard way a lot of the time.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16substandard way a lot of the time. To compare them with Britain First
0:37:16 > 0:37:22is over the top. To compare it with an organisation whose explicit
0:37:22 > 0:37:27purpose is to advance racist propaganda is unfair.We will leave
0:37:27 > 0:37:34that therefore now.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38Coming up on the programme.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42Will Scotland's Chancellor really hike taxes just before Christmas?
0:37:42 > 0:37:46I'll be speaking to two politicians who hope he does.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48And with support growing across business and politics,
0:37:48 > 0:37:52is it time for Scotland to start running its own immigration system?
0:37:56 > 0:38:14It's that time of year again when peace, love and understanding
0:38:14 > 0:38:17plans through Parliament and continue to govern.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20In a moment we'll hear from Scottish Lib Dem
0:38:20 > 0:38:23leader Willie Rennie, but first, with me now, is Scottish
0:38:23 > 0:38:29Green Co-convener Patrick Harvie.
0:38:29 > 0:38:35Have you already done a deal?No, we have set out very clearly what we
0:38:35 > 0:38:41think the priorities are for the Scottish Government, we took accept
0:38:41 > 0:38:44the party conference and our members indoor our key priorities around
0:38:44 > 0:38:52fair taxation, to revenue for public services and close the inequality
0:38:52 > 0:38:55gap, investing in carbon infrastructure and protecting local
0:38:55 > 0:38:59government.Have you had talks with the Scottish Government about the
0:38:59 > 0:39:03budget?Yes, I think the last time I spoke to Derek, he mentioned he had
0:39:03 > 0:39:06spoken to all the political parties. This is normal, political parties
0:39:06 > 0:39:12should talk all the time. Especially in a minority government.So what is
0:39:12 > 0:39:16your one red line, your thickest red Line?We have said clearly that we
0:39:16 > 0:39:22want to seek an innovation based as minimum pay increase in the -- and
0:39:22 > 0:39:25inflation -based pay increase in the public sector, protect public
0:39:25 > 0:39:29services which we managed to hold last year and we need to reverse
0:39:29 > 0:39:33cuts, we can do that with fairer taxation. On tax we have an
0:39:33 > 0:39:38interesting position where in 2016, we were the only party saying we
0:39:38 > 0:39:46don't just need to tweak the income tax system, you can restructure it
0:39:46 > 0:39:49by protecting the low earners and making people like me pay a bit
0:39:49 > 0:39:58more. We have won that argument already, labour and the Liberal --
0:39:58 > 0:40:02and the Conservatives have already agreed, I don't know what Willie
0:40:02 > 0:40:07will see but we think they are going in that direction.Your idea of a
0:40:07 > 0:40:10pay increase of at least inflation for public sector workers would be
0:40:10 > 0:40:15paid for by your proposal in tax but have you worked out how much of 3%
0:40:15 > 0:40:22pay rise would cost?We have said all along it is for the Scottish
0:40:22 > 0:40:25Government to produce the figures... You must have a guess.So what the
0:40:25 > 0:40:32Scottish Government has put in the public domain has said you are
0:40:32 > 0:40:43talking about 100 million per percent.£300 million?Over that.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47Which is more than any of the model tax increases that the Scottish
0:40:47 > 0:40:52Government produced in its government.That depends on when you
0:40:52 > 0:40:56are taking the most pessimistic idea of tax avoidance, and the evidence
0:40:56 > 0:41:01for that is shaky. Also in 2016, the tax proposals we put forward were
0:41:01 > 0:41:05about raising revenue party from income tax and partly from a form of
0:41:05 > 0:41:10local tax. The SNP have stalled on reforming local taxation, that is
0:41:10 > 0:41:14really regrettable. They have made the choice to stall on local tax
0:41:14 > 0:41:17reform, they need to come forward with tax policies that though they
0:41:17 > 0:41:23have two centre the fiscal commission. I am not allowed to do
0:41:23 > 0:41:26that, Derek is the owner person who can do that and run the system and
0:41:26 > 0:41:30decide what they will put the parliament.If you're going to have
0:41:30 > 0:41:34a negotiation, by definition, you have to be prepared to concede. And
0:41:34 > 0:41:38they must be prepared to concede as well. Have you had any indication
0:41:38 > 0:41:41from the Scottish Government that they have any indication of putting
0:41:41 > 0:41:45any taxes up?Your first question was, have we done a deal, we have
0:41:45 > 0:41:48not. The Scottish Government have not told me what the budget is that
0:41:48 > 0:41:53they're going to oppose this week in the budget. We will find out on
0:41:53 > 0:41:58Thursday but their budget plan is on spending but also what their tax
0:41:58 > 0:42:01plans are, their proposals for tax rates and bands on income tax, as
0:42:01 > 0:42:05well as a public sector pay policy. We will have to look at all of that
0:42:05 > 0:42:09detail together and not react immediately.But no tax rises would
0:42:09 > 0:42:15not be accidental to you?Identity how we -- acceptable to you? I do
0:42:15 > 0:42:20not see how we could fund the Scottish Government's own parties on
0:42:20 > 0:42:23four example the health service being funded by an extra £500
0:42:23 > 0:42:26million over the course of the Parliament, I do not know how you
0:42:26 > 0:42:30could find that if the UK Government is imposing a cut on the revenue
0:42:30 > 0:42:34side of the budget, and you don't raise tax.So there would have to
0:42:34 > 0:42:37be, even if it is not your proposals, there would have to be
0:42:37 > 0:42:40some tax rises?I don't see how Derek Mackay could present a budget
0:42:40 > 0:42:45which even meets SNP policies if it's a standstill on tax and seeing
0:42:45 > 0:42:51a reduction of the revenue side, it doesn't add up.In the documents
0:42:51 > 0:42:56they produced, your right to say there was a range of suggestions
0:42:56 > 0:42:59depending on how people reacted to tax rises, but the figures they
0:42:59 > 0:43:03produced and the analysis they produced suggested that if you put
0:43:03 > 0:43:13an additional 5p on the additional rate, people earning over 150,000
0:43:13 > 0:43:17pounds, only 20,000 of them, if you put 5p on, you a chilly lose money.
0:43:17 > 0:43:25But you're proposing to put 15p on which seems entirely self-defeating.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29The focus on the additional rate is something that keeps coming back in
0:43:29 > 0:43:34this tax discussion. A very small proportion of the population pay
0:43:34 > 0:43:39that top rate of tax. There is a question about whether those people
0:43:39 > 0:43:42are going to find ways to dodge taxes if you increase the rates. The
0:43:42 > 0:43:49evidence for that is mixed. The only way to find out if the evidence is
0:43:49 > 0:43:53correct is to attempt a change. You can make a bigger change by reducing
0:43:53 > 0:43:59the threshold. Some people in Labour have suggested going through further
0:43:59 > 0:44:02in reducing that tax threshold than we have.What would you like to
0:44:02 > 0:44:07reduce it to?Pick on anyone of these measures, and say what's your
0:44:07 > 0:44:14order before then, -- what is your number for that, it doesn't make
0:44:14 > 0:44:17sense.It does if you are going to implement a tax system.You have to
0:44:17 > 0:44:22think across the piece, you have to think about the tax rate across the
0:44:22 > 0:44:27higher rate and the basic rate, you split that up. We are likely to see
0:44:27 > 0:44:29what rates and bands of income tax being proposed by the Scottish
0:44:29 > 0:44:35Government because we seem to have one but argued.The air passenger
0:44:35 > 0:44:43duty, is that a Red Line?You cannot -- we cannot support a cut to air
0:44:43 > 0:44:46passenger duty. We already know that's not going to happen, if you
0:44:46 > 0:44:49are cynical, you could say that they have found a way to blame
0:44:49 > 0:44:53Westminster for the fact that they can't change it this year. If you
0:44:53 > 0:44:57are more generous, you could say that they got a technical problem
0:44:57 > 0:44:59they did not anticipate. Whichever view you take, that's not going to
0:44:59 > 0:45:06happen this week and it's clear that the SNP should drop the policy
0:45:06 > 0:45:09overall, not just a ferret down road a year, they should drop the policy
0:45:09 > 0:45:14and if there's any tax giveaway, it should be cutting public transport
0:45:14 > 0:45:20fares on buses and trains.How would you reply to people saying, of
0:45:20 > 0:45:26course but Greens are going to give in and vote for the budget, they are
0:45:26 > 0:45:33just puppets of the SNP.I think they have been looking at bad Tory
0:45:33 > 0:45:38memes on the Twitter.The fact that you voted for it last year is a bad
0:45:38 > 0:45:45Tory meme?We have voted for some budget and against, the Tories voted
0:45:45 > 0:45:52for every single SNP budget.Your not a puppet, that's the gist of it.
0:45:52 > 0:45:57Every party should drive as hard bargain we can for their voters.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59Thank you very much.
0:45:59 > 0:46:05Shortly before we came on air I spoke with Willie Rennie.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09Have you already done a deal to support the Scottish budget?We have
0:46:09 > 0:46:12certainly have not. We will wait to see what the budget comes up with on
0:46:12 > 0:46:16Thursday and we will be prepared to talk to Derek Mackay and his
0:46:16 > 0:46:19colleagues about whether an agreement can be reached. The top
0:46:19 > 0:46:23priority for us is to have a transformation of investment for
0:46:23 > 0:46:26education which will help of the economy which has been stuttering
0:46:26 > 0:46:33over recent months and years. We need to invest in people skills to
0:46:33 > 0:46:38make things change.Have you not had any talks with them?We have had
0:46:38 > 0:46:40discussions with him but we have not reached any agreement.You say your
0:46:40 > 0:46:50Red Line is how you much you want spent in education.We want to
0:46:50 > 0:46:53invest £500 million in education. We think there should be an investment
0:46:53 > 0:46:57in colleges, schools and nurseries and we would do that by putting a
0:46:57 > 0:47:03penny on the basic rate of income tax.That would not raise £500
0:47:03 > 0:47:08million, though, would it?That would.It would, if you put a penny
0:47:08 > 0:47:14on the rate from how much, from 12,000 right way up?Yes, because of
0:47:14 > 0:47:19the personal allowance changes at Westminster, it would be that you
0:47:19 > 0:47:24wouldn't pay any more tax unless you work earning over £80,800 so it
0:47:24 > 0:47:30would be attracting those on the lowest incomes.-- £18,800. Does
0:47:30 > 0:47:34that go along with the Scottish Government's economists cultivation?
0:47:34 > 0:47:38I thought the maximum they came up with with all the various
0:47:38 > 0:47:44calculations they had was £290 million.They have come up with a
0:47:44 > 0:47:48limited number of options which involves creating different bands
0:47:48 > 0:47:53and taking those on low incomes out of the tax increases. We are
0:47:53 > 0:48:00proposing a different system, so there four options, I think the
0:48:00 > 0:48:08maximum is about to 90.But have you had any indication from Derek Mackay
0:48:08 > 0:48:11or anyone else in the Scottish Government that they would be
0:48:11 > 0:48:17prepared to contemplate a raise in of the basic rate?We haven't got
0:48:17 > 0:48:21down to that kind of detail yet, we have got to see what they come up
0:48:21 > 0:48:27with.It's a pretty obvious come up with.We've covered a lot of issues,
0:48:27 > 0:48:35one is whether we can make the necessary education we think is
0:48:35 > 0:48:41needed. We are unnecessary nursery education, they are clearly trying
0:48:41 > 0:48:44to expand the number of hours for three and four years old, we have
0:48:44 > 0:48:48gone to that detail. In mental health, we want to make sure we get
0:48:48 > 0:48:51investment in the front line by recruiting and training more
0:48:51 > 0:48:58personnel for mental health officers. In GP surgeries, also with
0:48:58 > 0:49:00the police and accident and emergencies. Those of things that we
0:49:00 > 0:49:04have set out what we have not got down to the specific details in tax.
0:49:04 > 0:49:11Your big issue is Europe, the Liberal Democrats are campaigning
0:49:11 > 0:49:16for a second referendum on the European Union. You seem to think
0:49:16 > 0:49:20that's more important almost, that anything else, the economic impact
0:49:20 > 0:49:26of leaving the European Union is the biggest issue. Why not say to this
0:49:26 > 0:49:30Scottish Government, we will support your budget if you support a second
0:49:30 > 0:49:34referendum on the European Union? There are a number of different
0:49:34 > 0:49:37priorities that the Liberal Democrats have, yes, we want to
0:49:37 > 0:49:40avoid the dangerous impact of Brexit. But this is about the
0:49:40 > 0:49:45budget. This is about trying to get a package of finances for Scotland
0:49:45 > 0:49:50that will boost the economy, because we have been sluggish over recent
0:49:50 > 0:49:54months. That's the focus we've got and that's why we believe investing
0:49:54 > 0:49:58in mental health, also education, should be the priority.You could
0:49:58 > 0:50:02also say, the impact of Brexit will overwhelm any of these detailed
0:50:02 > 0:50:08discussions on education or whatever, we need to not leave the
0:50:08 > 0:50:18European Union, back our son having a -- back second referendum and we
0:50:18 > 0:50:21will back your budget.It'll take more than that for us to back the
0:50:21 > 0:50:25budget, we want to have a transformational on education but
0:50:25 > 0:50:28tackling also problems mental health. It is interesting idea and
0:50:28 > 0:50:31it's something I will raise the Derek Mackay perhaps but that on its
0:50:31 > 0:50:35own is not sufficient. We need to have a transformational education to
0:50:35 > 0:50:42make real change.A while back on this programme, you said you would
0:50:42 > 0:50:48like the SNP to back your second referendum on Europe, and make
0:50:48 > 0:50:50Russell, the Brexit secretary, was interested in that, and said he
0:50:50 > 0:50:56would like to meet you and discuss at.Where are there any meetings?
0:50:56 > 0:50:59Yes, Tavish Scott and make Russell have had a discussion, we have been
0:50:59 > 0:51:05encouraging them to
0:51:05 > 0:51:07encouraging them to move from considering to supporting our
0:51:07 > 0:51:12proposal. We think it is the best way of avoiding dangerous Brexit and
0:51:12 > 0:51:16the impact on the economy. We have to get the SNP over the line to
0:51:16 > 0:51:21fully supported.What is your problem with the idea? It would seem
0:51:21 > 0:51:26an obvious thing for them to support it on one level.Yes, it would. We
0:51:26 > 0:51:30do not understand why they are not fully supporting at.One reason is
0:51:30 > 0:51:34presumably because a lot of yes voters in the independence
0:51:34 > 0:51:39referendum voted leave, so might not be pleased if they backed the second
0:51:39 > 0:51:43European referendum.It could well be, I cannot read the minds of the
0:51:43 > 0:51:46SNP very well these days, but hopefully they will come on board
0:51:46 > 0:51:51and support the move.Are those discussions still going on?We have
0:51:51 > 0:51:58not had discussions this week.I mean about the Europe issue.That is
0:51:58 > 0:52:05what I mean, yes.Is the reality that you will not back the budget?
0:52:05 > 0:52:08There is nothing in it for you. At times you have been the most
0:52:08 > 0:52:13critical party of the whole idea of independence for Scotland, and the
0:52:13 > 0:52:18wall idea at the second referendum, what possible motive would you have
0:52:18 > 0:52:23in propping up an SNP Government?We are reasonable and pragmatic people,
0:52:23 > 0:52:27we always try to hunt for agreement when we can, and if we can find
0:52:27 > 0:52:32common ground we will do that. We want the transformation investment
0:52:32 > 0:52:35in education, we want a change in mental health services for the
0:52:35 > 0:52:41better, and we want to make sure that we get a fairer funding package
0:52:41 > 0:52:48for ferries in Orkney and Shetland, which the finance secretary is being
0:52:48 > 0:52:52underhand on.Were not going to go into that, last point, you said a
0:52:52 > 0:52:56minute ago you had not had discussions on Europe this week with
0:52:56 > 0:53:00the SNP. Are you implying these are regular discussions that are
0:53:00 > 0:53:06ongoing?I think there has been one meeting, but I visit frequently with
0:53:06 > 0:53:10Scottish Government ministers, and I am open to having further
0:53:10 > 0:53:17discussions.You still hope to wind them over?Yes, I do, I am ever
0:53:17 > 0:53:20optimistic.Willie Rennie, we have to leave it there, thank you very
0:53:20 > 0:53:21much indeed.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25So, at last, a deal in Brussels this week means that Britain will be able
0:53:25 > 0:53:27to move to stage two of the Brexit negotiations.
0:53:27 > 0:53:29Theresa May remains adamant that Britain will leave
0:53:29 > 0:53:31the European single market and control its own immigration,
0:53:31 > 0:53:33with a view to bringing the numbers down.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36But the debate is very different here in Scotland.
0:53:36 > 0:53:38Faced with an ageing population, there've been growing calls
0:53:38 > 0:53:40to maintain, or even boost, the numbers of EU
0:53:40 > 0:53:42migrants coming here.
0:53:42 > 0:53:46And now that the real negotiations over Brexit are about to start,
0:53:46 > 0:53:48the think tank, the Institute for Public Policy Research,
0:53:48 > 0:53:50has said that devolving control over immigration
0:53:50 > 0:53:53to the Scottish Parliament is an "idea whose time has come".
0:53:53 > 0:53:55We'll debate the merits of that in a moment,
0:53:55 > 0:54:03but first here's Graham Stewart.
0:54:03 > 0:54:07Hello, everybody, it is great to see you all here as we are about to turn
0:54:07 > 0:54:09on the Christmas tree lights in Downing Street once again.
0:54:09 > 0:54:19MUSIC
0:54:28 > 0:54:40To help us do this... MUSIC
0:54:51 > 0:54:58Five, four, three, two, one.
0:54:58 > 0:55:00Five, four, three, two, one.So, Theresa May got what she wanted this
0:55:00 > 0:55:06Christmas, or key, maybe Europe did anyway. There was a deal on the
0:55:06 > 0:55:10so-called divorce bill, no hard order in Ireland. And to the reef of
0:55:10 > 0:55:13many European citizens living here, they will get to stay here and work
0:55:13 > 0:55:17as they do now. That is good news for Simon, originally from Poland,
0:55:17 > 0:55:20who has run his own landscaping business across Fife in the Lothian
0:55:20 > 0:55:26is for the past ten years, employing a mix of European and Scottish
0:55:26 > 0:55:29workers. But the UK Government is still intent on reducing immigration
0:55:29 > 0:55:34once we're out of the EU, and he believes that would make hiring
0:55:34 > 0:55:38workers a lot more difficult in the future.It would definitely restrict
0:55:38 > 0:55:45the amount of skill and experience we have access to. I think the ideal
0:55:45 > 0:55:50scenario is that there is still a free flow of workers and skill.Here
0:55:50 > 0:55:54it is in black and white. A plan for a tighter system of control for
0:55:54 > 0:55:59after we leave the EU. The government document, which was
0:55:59 > 0:56:02leaked in August, says freedom of movement with an unlimited number of
0:56:02 > 0:56:10EU citizens can come here, we'll end. New arrivals after 2019 would
0:56:10 > 0:56:12have to register to remain long-term. There would be tighter
0:56:12 > 0:56:15rules for lower skilled workers to prioritise British employees,
0:56:15 > 0:56:20perhaps even a cap on numbers. For EU citizens who do come to the UK,
0:56:20 > 0:56:27it would be harder to bring family along. But could Scotland take a
0:56:27 > 0:56:29different path? The Institute for Public Policy Research in Scotland
0:56:29 > 0:56:37says it is time to rethink the UK's one size fits all immigration policy
0:56:37 > 0:56:41and post Brexit is the ideal time to do it.Immigration has not been
0:56:41 > 0:56:44working across the UK for a long time, but devolving immigration to
0:56:44 > 0:56:50us could be one of the answers to this an offence, places in Scotland
0:56:50 > 0:56:54we are immigration is lower, the need for immigration is greater, in
0:56:54 > 0:56:58terms of economic son demographics, to go ahead and get the levels that
0:56:58 > 0:57:05are right, and allow other parts of the UK we are immigration is
0:57:05 > 0:57:08greater, to restrict immigration, which would bring coherence to the
0:57:08 > 0:57:11UK wide immigration matters not they are right now.Similar to concerns
0:57:11 > 0:57:16in Ireland this week over the prospect of a hard border, there are
0:57:16 > 0:57:20questions about how Scotland did have a separate immigration system
0:57:20 > 0:57:24while maintaining an open border with England. Questions Lord Smith
0:57:24 > 0:57:28of Kelvin doubtless considered three years ago when he proposed evolving
0:57:28 > 0:57:31further powers to Holyrood in the wake of the independence referendum.
0:57:31 > 0:57:36He stopped well short of recommending power should be
0:57:36 > 0:57:40devolved, but he suggested politicians explore the possibility
0:57:40 > 0:57:45of post-study work visas for students. Something Scotland's
0:57:45 > 0:57:49universities are even more keen to explore in the week Brexit.We
0:57:49 > 0:57:51benefit hugely from being able to attract students from across the
0:57:51 > 0:57:58from over 100 countries. At the moment we're rather unmapped by UK
0:57:58 > 0:58:02immigration policy. We would for instance like to be able to offer a
0:58:02 > 0:58:06competitive ability for students to stay on and work a period after they
0:58:06 > 0:58:09have graduated so that they can contribute something to our economy
0:58:09 > 0:58:14and call back to their own countries with work experience as well as a
0:58:14 > 0:58:18fantastic Scottish degree.Are you going to be celebrating? No. Still
0:58:18 > 0:58:26more work to do.As the EU's chief Brexit negotiator made clear, any
0:58:26 > 0:58:33celebrations over this week's agreements are premature. Britain's
0:58:33 > 0:58:37future with Europe let alone the Immigration bills have not even --
0:58:37 > 0:58:50immigration rules have not even been discussed yet.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55Shortly before we came on air I spoke to the SNP's Deidre Brock
0:58:55 > 0:59:02and the Conservative's Paul Masterton.
0:59:02 > 0:59:05First of all, tell us the story of the problem is one of your
0:59:05 > 0:59:10constituents has been having?Yes, she has been 24 years in Britain,
0:59:10 > 0:59:16she married a Marine who served in Bosnia and Northern Ireland, and
0:59:16 > 0:59:22went on to become a member of what I could term Queens bodyguard, and is
0:59:22 > 0:59:29now Regius keeper at the botanic. She replied for a residency card and
0:59:29 > 0:59:32was refused, despite the fact she has lived here all that time, and
0:59:32 > 0:59:36stayed at home bringing up their three children while Simon was
0:59:36 > 0:59:40serving, and she could not prove her income levels so she was refused and
0:59:40 > 0:59:46keen to see me in some distress, -- came to see me in some distress, and
0:59:46 > 0:59:52it has caused a lot of attention in the media.Has it been sorted out?
0:59:52 > 0:59:56The negotiations announced, the first phase of the EU negotiations,
0:59:56 > 1:00:01the document on Thursday, suggested that marriage to a UK national will
1:00:01 > 1:00:06be taken into account when assessing whether or not people can remain in
1:00:06 > 1:00:14the UK after Brexit. But it says it has taken into account, it is not a
1:00:14 > 1:00:20guarantee. The criteria is still not clear enough as to what will be
1:00:20 > 1:00:25applied when people apply for a residential status after Brexit.The
1:00:25 > 1:00:29way you have described the case, whatever the rights and wrongs, it
1:00:29 > 1:00:35does not seem that her case had much to do with Brexit in the first
1:00:35 > 1:00:41place, did it?No, residency was refused, but it is a ridiculous
1:00:41 > 1:00:45situation, she has lived here for 24 years, bringing up three citizens of
1:00:45 > 1:00:50the UK, her husband is highly respected, and even she was refused
1:00:50 > 1:00:53residency, so this causes a lot of doubt in people's minds about what
1:00:53 > 1:01:00will be applied after Brexit went EU nationals have to apply.Again,
1:01:00 > 1:01:07you're presumably encouraged by the wording in the document?I am
1:01:07 > 1:01:09encouraged, but the 3 million organisation which represents the
1:01:09 > 1:01:13views of many EU nationals, the 3 million who live in the UK, have
1:01:13 > 1:01:17said they are not satisfied with the fact there is not sufficient detail
1:01:17 > 1:01:23as to what that criteria might be for those wanting resident status
1:01:23 > 1:01:31after Brexit?Are you happy with the wording?Yes, I take her point that
1:01:31 > 1:01:36it is wording and a lot comes into how that works for people who are
1:01:36 > 1:01:39here achieving that settled status, but in terms of the high-level clear
1:01:39 > 1:01:44commitment made to these people, as we come to be phase one, it is very
1:01:44 > 1:01:48strong.Are you happy that the European Court will, it seems, have
1:01:48 > 1:01:53a role in this for almost a decade? I am personally comfortable with
1:01:53 > 1:02:01that. I know some of my colleagues may feel less comfortable, but for
1:02:01 > 1:02:04me it is more important that we talk about these individuals as people
1:02:04 > 1:02:08and giving them that the assurance they have built in the lights in the
1:02:08 > 1:02:14UK.On a more general point, the SNP would like after Brexit for the to
1:02:14 > 1:02:21be some Scottish immigration policy which could be different from that
1:02:21 > 1:02:32in England or Wales.Are you getting anywhere? Well, we're looking into
1:02:32 > 1:02:35immigration at this moment. We have had a couple of sessions already,
1:02:35 > 1:02:39but it is not simply the SNP, they are a number of organisations,
1:02:39 > 1:02:43increasing numbers of organisations concerned about what will happen
1:02:43 > 1:02:48after Brexit to migration from Scotland. It is very important for
1:02:48 > 1:02:50the economy, not to mention the social and cultural importance they
1:02:50 > 1:02:56bring.
1:02:56 > 1:03:01bring. But we have people like the Scottish Chambers of commerce, FSB
1:03:01 > 1:03:05Scotland, we have universities Scotland, we have the College of
1:03:05 > 1:03:08Scotland, different organisations who feel that some sort of
1:03:08 > 1:03:13differential approach to immigration is required in the future.Given
1:03:13 > 1:03:16that list of organisations, it seems obvious for the Scottish
1:03:16 > 1:03:22Conservatives to support it.On the committee with Deidre, I said I'm
1:03:22 > 1:03:27not convinced with any of the issues outlined being unique to Scotland,
1:03:27 > 1:03:31so some differentiated deal is necessary or would have any economic
1:03:31 > 1:03:35benefit for Scotland. It seems that a lot of these issues are UK wide,
1:03:35 > 1:03:41and they need a pan UK resolution. Why, because for example the
1:03:41 > 1:03:45Scottish Government says Scottish industry and business needs more
1:03:45 > 1:03:48immigrants. Without prejudice to the idea that could be special
1:03:48 > 1:03:53agreements -- there could be special agreements to England and Wales
1:03:53 > 1:03:56Cricket Board same thing. What is wrong with the same idea that the
1:03:56 > 1:03:59Scottish Government should be able to determine these things? The
1:03:59 > 1:04:05Conservatives have been saying for weeks you can have an electronic
1:04:05 > 1:04:08border between Ireland, Northern Ireland and the Republic which would
1:04:08 > 1:04:12mean you do not need to have a tariff or customs barrier. Surely it
1:04:12 > 1:04:16is possible to have an immigration system where the Scottish Government
1:04:16 > 1:04:20can have some separate policy and it would work electronically?I think
1:04:20 > 1:04:27it is possible, but it is whether it is necessary or beneficial. A lot of
1:04:27 > 1:04:35issues are sectoral, so issues facing soft fruit farmers in Angus
1:04:35 > 1:04:41are the same as those Down South. It is about putting together an
1:04:41 > 1:04:48immigration policy that works for Britain and its new place.If you
1:04:48 > 1:04:54take an issue like farming, a lot of people who come and work in the soft
1:04:54 > 1:04:59fruit industry in Scotland are from Eastern Europe, exactly the same
1:04:59 > 1:05:08issues that arise in East Anglia or Lincolnshire, so doesn't Paul
1:05:08 > 1:05:11Masterton have a point that it is going -- if there is going to be
1:05:11 > 1:05:15immigration rules, they should apply to areas of Britain, rather than
1:05:15 > 1:05:20something Scotland should have separately?I refer you to the Ernst
1:05:20 > 1:05:22separately?I refer you to the Ernst & Young report talking about a
1:05:22 > 1:05:28demographic time bomb to Scotland, Scotland has a particular problem
1:05:28 > 1:05:33with an ageing population, and dependence on population growth on
1:05:33 > 1:05:36migration. -- inward migration. I do not hold that there is not a
1:05:36 > 1:05:40specific need for Scotland to address this. People are becoming
1:05:40 > 1:05:44increasingly alarmed at the prospect of losing those important migrant
1:05:44 > 1:05:52workers after Brexit.But businesses in England are alarmed as well.
1:05:52 > 1:05:55But if we have a number of organisations making a case for
1:05:55 > 1:05:59flexible migration in Scotland, I don't see why that should not be the
1:05:59 > 1:06:02case. Even the head of the Tories acknowledge there are differing
1:06:02 > 1:06:05needs in Scotland, but they're just not prepared to do anything about
1:06:05 > 1:06:10it.If we can have an electronic border, why not have it? I take your
1:06:10 > 1:06:14point about some of the issues being the same, but what the Scottish
1:06:14 > 1:06:17Government would say is, where the best people to decide that, not the
1:06:17 > 1:06:22government in London.My view is that we need to have an immigration
1:06:22 > 1:06:27system that works for the UK as a whole. There are some specific
1:06:27 > 1:06:30issues facing Scotland that they can be met better than the UK where aid
1:06:30 > 1:06:37framework.Is this something we discussed within the Scottish
1:06:37 > 1:06:40Conservatives? There have been suggestions in the papers over the
1:06:40 > 1:06:43weekend of the Scottish Conservatives might come round to
1:06:43 > 1:06:49the kind of view that Deirdre is having.I don't think so. We accept
1:06:49 > 1:06:54that there are sectoral issues which are more prolific in Scotland by way
1:06:54 > 1:06:58of the workforce and the ageing demographic but the Scottish
1:06:58 > 1:07:01Government has a soft and hard powers which you can use to attract
1:07:01 > 1:07:05more inward migration to Scotland and we need to focus on the overall
1:07:05 > 1:07:11UK wide immigration policy.Is Paul Wright, are you getting signals that
1:07:11 > 1:07:16the Scottish Conservatives might come round your point of view?I
1:07:16 > 1:07:20can't see that I've seen any evidence of it yet. I would hope
1:07:20 > 1:07:22that the evidence that the Scottish Government submitted containing a
1:07:22 > 1:07:29lot of data to the importance of migration to Scotland to the
1:07:29 > 1:07:33migration advisory Council recently would be taken into the account when
1:07:33 > 1:07:36the UK Government forms interviews. But I would still argue that the
1:07:36 > 1:07:39Home Office immigration service is not fit for purpose and needs
1:07:39 > 1:07:41review, and I would like to see things altered for Scotland's
1:07:41 > 1:07:47purposes.We will have to leave it there, thank you very much.
1:07:47 > 1:07:49Time now to take a look back over events and a look
1:07:49 > 1:07:51forwards to the week ahead.
1:07:54 > 1:07:57With me this week are the former Labour advisor Paul Sinclair.
1:07:57 > 1:08:07And the Common Space editor Angela Haggerty.
1:08:07 > 1:08:11I just wonder, is this idea of a separate immigration policy, an idea
1:08:11 > 1:08:18that time has come? I don't know what Labour's views are on this, I
1:08:18 > 1:08:21guess we don't know what Labour's views are on anything at the moment
1:08:21 > 1:08:26because it has not been made clear. It's an obvious thing that Labour
1:08:26 > 1:08:32could support.I think the idea will be about practicalities. If the rest
1:08:32 > 1:08:36of the country has voted to leave the EU because we have got a problem
1:08:36 > 1:08:39with freedom of movement, is Scotland has a separate immigration
1:08:39 > 1:08:42policy, the question is, can we still have freedom of movement
1:08:42 > 1:08:45within the United Kingdom? There is a question of practicalities rather
1:08:45 > 1:08:51than the principle.It didn't occur to me when I was doing the
1:08:51 > 1:08:55discussions there, but in a way, Paul Masterson conceded the
1:08:55 > 1:08:58principle, because if you have what he called sectoral deals, that
1:08:58 > 1:09:03conceived the idea that you can have a differential immigration policy.
1:09:03 > 1:09:07Yes, the advice seems to be coming from a range of different places now
1:09:07 > 1:09:12that Scotland's needs are different when it comes to immigration and I
1:09:12 > 1:09:13think Scotland's attitude are different when it comes to
1:09:13 > 1:09:16immigration as well when it comes to the rest of the country. The issues
1:09:16 > 1:09:19affecting us with Brexit are quite different to the issues that have
1:09:19 > 1:09:24been brought up elsewhere. I don't think that having a more open
1:09:24 > 1:09:27immigration policy would go down so badly in Scotland, I think people
1:09:27 > 1:09:34recognise that it's necessary for certain sectors in the economy. We
1:09:34 > 1:09:36have other things devolved, why can't we have this devolved as well
1:09:36 > 1:09:40if it makes sense to do so, if the advice is to do that? I take the
1:09:40 > 1:09:44point about the practicalities could be difficult, but we are in a
1:09:44 > 1:09:47situation where the practicalities of everything to do with Brexit
1:09:47 > 1:09:51going to be difficult. They have to be worked out, we had to find a way
1:09:51 > 1:09:57around these things but I think it can be done. There will be a way to
1:09:57 > 1:10:02do that. I don't think that it should be on stuck because of the
1:10:02 > 1:10:05practicality question. I think in principle we need to accept that
1:10:05 > 1:10:09this makes good sense and went it comes to unionists, I think the
1:10:09 > 1:10:14Conservatives are pushing this UK wide line because they think they
1:10:14 > 1:10:18cannot keep separating things to Scotland. Rather I think it's
1:10:18 > 1:10:21actually a good thing to allow Scotland to take control over
1:10:21 > 1:10:23certain things otherwise they feel like it's going to be detrimental
1:10:23 > 1:10:28for them if it's a UK wide policy. But budget, there will be a deal,
1:10:28 > 1:10:31would there? It's just a question of with whom, who is your money on?I
1:10:31 > 1:10:36think there will be a deal. I think we are going to get into huge
1:10:36 > 1:10:46difficulty here, it seems almost certain that taxes are
1:10:46 > 1:10:48certain that taxes are going to go up. In principle and not against
1:10:48 > 1:10:51income tax going up, but if you look at the problems that Scotland have,
1:10:51 > 1:10:54our income tax base is too small, we don't have enough high earners or
1:10:54 > 1:10:57middle earners. Anything that's going to determine people moving
1:10:57 > 1:11:00south or make people not want to come to Scotland, we just talked
1:11:00 > 1:11:03about immigration, why would you come to Scotland if taxes are going
1:11:03 > 1:11:12to be higher? The thing I fear about it is this. For whatever, because
1:11:12 > 1:11:18getting a cost into deeper's pay packets, the benefit they will --
1:11:18 > 1:11:21people's pay packets, they will not see any benefit in public services,
1:11:21 > 1:11:26I think this is an electoral tactic by Nicola Sturgeon saying, I raised
1:11:26 > 1:11:30taxes, Richard Leonard wants to raise their more and Tories wants to
1:11:30 > 1:11:35cut them.The other thing and I'm sure the SNP government is aware of
1:11:35 > 1:11:42this, it's one thing to say that all the people support taxes going up in
1:11:42 > 1:11:45opinion polls, when it comes to voting for a party that puts your
1:11:45 > 1:11:49taxes up, people are not maybe quite so keen. As the SNP know to their
1:11:49 > 1:11:56cost.One of the issues that we need to be aware of is that of the
1:11:56 > 1:11:59options of the SNP Scottish Government has laid out so far on
1:11:59 > 1:12:06raising taxes, even the best and most optimistic projections for how
1:12:06 > 1:12:12much could be raise are still only going to offset the cuts coming into
1:12:12 > 1:12:22the Scottish budget.200 million -- £290 million according to their
1:12:22 > 1:12:27budget.So the tax rate may not go to improve public services.It is
1:12:27 > 1:12:32important point, we should explain. £290 million, if you take action to
1:12:32 > 1:12:38not pay these extra taxes, and maybe 430 million, but as you say, in the
1:12:38 > 1:12:42bigger scheme of things, it's not enormous sums of money. Kezia
1:12:42 > 1:12:46Dugdale, you've been very critical of her.I have merely passed an
1:12:46 > 1:12:53opinion.And what is the opinion?I think it's rather sad that Kez, who
1:12:53 > 1:12:57I think is a woman of ability although we didn't see that when she
1:12:57 > 1:13:03was leader of the Scottish party, has trashed her own credibility. I
1:13:03 > 1:13:07think we will find it a sad when she gets back from Australia, we're
1:13:07 > 1:13:10going to find, the question will be how much of money of her £100,000
1:13:10 > 1:13:16fee will she actually give to charity, which she said.The
1:13:16 > 1:13:24opposition... It says, stop being so perfect, it's a bit of fun.I think
1:13:24 > 1:13:28it nearly broke the Internet with the economy right on Kezia Dugdale.
1:13:28 > 1:13:33It's a TV show, it's not that big a deal, she will probably come back
1:13:33 > 1:13:39and will be a bit of controversy and squabbling but it will be fine.Do
1:13:39 > 1:13:46you think Richard Leonard should bring her in?Probably.No!That's
1:13:46 > 1:13:50all we have time for this week. I will be back for the same time next
1:13:50 > 1:13:53week for our final programme before the Christmas break.
1:13:53 > 1:13:54Until then, goodbye.