0:00:39 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics -
0:00:42 > 0:00:44your inside briefing on all the big
0:00:44 > 0:00:45political stories happening in Westminster and beyond.
0:00:45 > 0:00:53Coming up on today's show.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57The
0:00:57 > 0:01:00The decision to release serial sex
0:01:00 > 0:01:06attacker John Worboys...
0:01:06 > 0:01:09Does the Government now "look more like the country it represents"?
0:01:09 > 0:01:12After a tricky reshuffle, we speak to one of the new faces sitting
0:01:12 > 0:01:14around the Cabinet table - the immigration minister
0:01:14 > 0:01:15Caroline Nokes.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Does the Government have a clearer idea about what our future
0:01:18 > 0:01:19relationship with the EU should look like?
0:01:19 > 0:01:20And for that matter, does the Labour Party
0:01:20 > 0:01:22And on Sunday Politics Scotland...
0:01:22 > 0:01:23I'll be assking what the Scottish Government wants from Brexit
0:01:23 > 0:01:27and asking the Scottish Tories why they've turned against
0:01:27 > 0:01:32the UK Government.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42And sitting around our top table today, I'm joined
0:01:42 > 0:01:44by some familiar faces.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47We tried a reshuffle of our own but they simply refused
0:01:47 > 0:01:48to budge: Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:01:48 > 0:01:52and Steve Richards.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Now, after a pretty bumpy 2017, Theresa May actually went
0:01:55 > 0:01:58in to the Christmas break in relatively good political health.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01So, what better way to kick off 2018 than by shaking up her top team
0:02:01 > 0:02:02and reasserting her authority?
0:02:02 > 0:02:08But as she found this week, things don't always go according to plan.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18If you're going to carry out major surgery on your Government, you need
0:02:18 > 0:02:23to be sure the prognosis is good.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28It was a picture of health to begin with, a fresh,
0:02:28 > 0:02:30new team at Party HQ, but before long, complications
0:02:30 > 0:02:35arose.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Justine Greening, who's had a rocky time at Education, decided
0:02:37 > 0:02:38she'd had enough.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40She quit the Government rather than accept a
0:02:40 > 0:02:41sideways move.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44While Jeremy Hunt refused to budge from his job at
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Health.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51He even left his meeting having added social care to his job
0:02:51 > 0:02:54title.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57There was a fresher look among the junior ministerial ranks.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00But when the new Cabinet met on Tuesday morning, it looked...
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Well, very much like the old one.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05Normally loyal Conservative grandee Nicholas Soames asked, "Is that it?"
0:03:05 > 0:03:07The state of the NHS then caused more pain.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09Dozens of senior doctors wrote to the Prime Minister saying conditions
0:03:09 > 0:03:11in some hospitals were becoming intolerable.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Patients were dying prematurely.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17We have now clearly reached the point where the NHS
0:03:17 > 0:03:19cannot meet the standards of care that we would,
0:03:19 > 0:03:24all of us in the NHS, ministers included, want to provide.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28At Prime Minister's Questions, the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
0:03:28 > 0:03:30pressed on the bruise.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33We know the Prime Minister recognises there is a
0:03:33 > 0:03:36crisis in our NHS, because she wanted to sack
0:03:36 > 0:03:41the Health Secretary last week but was too weak to do it.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Mr Corbyn announced his own reshuffle towards the end of the
0:03:44 > 0:03:46week, with a surprising return to the front
0:03:46 > 0:03:47bench for Clive Lewis, who
0:03:47 > 0:03:51has been cleared of sexual harassment claims.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56While two other Labour MPs, Kelvin Hopkins and
0:03:56 > 0:04:01Ivan Lewis, have been referred to an independent disciplinary
0:04:01 > 0:04:02panel over allegations of sexual misconduct.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05On Friday, US President Donald Trump raised the temperature, cancelling
0:04:05 > 0:04:08his visit to the UK next month to open the new American Embassy.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11Calling the decision to relocate the building to an off
0:04:11 > 0:04:15location is a bad deal.
0:04:15 > 0:04:22His friends on this side of the pond suspected
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Just maybe, Sadiq Khan, Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party
0:04:26 > 0:04:29planning mass protests, maybe those optics he didn't like the look of.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Nigel Farage also set pulses racing with this:
0:04:32 > 0:04:33I'm reaching the point of
0:04:33 > 0:04:35thinking that we should have a second referendum because...
0:04:35 > 0:04:36On what?
0:04:36 > 0:04:40On EU membership.
0:04:40 > 0:04:41The whole thing?!
0:04:41 > 0:04:42Of course, of course.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43The Conservatives hope focusing on the
0:04:43 > 0:04:45environment will bring the party back to health.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47The Prime Minister teamed up with her new eco-warrior
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, to crack down on the use of
0:04:50 > 0:04:51plastics.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54We must reduce the demand for plastic, reduce the number of
0:04:54 > 0:04:56plastics in circulation and improve our recycling rates.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58It all seems strangely reminiscent of someone who
0:04:58 > 0:05:01once said, vote blue, go green.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05In another tricky week that's left the
0:05:05 > 0:05:10PM looking a little green around the gills.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21Now, let's pick up on a story which broke overnight: the new
0:05:21 > 0:05:22Justice Secretary David Gauke is considering a judicial review
0:05:22 > 0:05:24of the decision to release the serial sex attacker
0:05:24 > 0:05:29John Worboys on parole.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Earlier this month the Parole Board announced that he would be released
0:05:31 > 0:05:33under strict licence conditions.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36He was jailed in 2009 for a minimum of eight years for drugging
0:05:36 > 0:05:37and sexually assaulting 12 women.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41However, it's thought he may have carried out as many as 100 rapes
0:05:41 > 0:05:46and sexual assaults on women in London in the early 2000s.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54I will take this to the panel first. This is obviously a very emotive
0:05:54 > 0:05:58case, and people get very worked up about it, but the politics of the
0:05:58 > 0:06:03Justice Secretary, Tom, asking for a judicial review against the body
0:06:03 > 0:06:06which is really under the supervision of his own department,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11this gets a little odd.Justice Secretary criticises Justice
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Department shock. There is a whiff of panic in the Government over this
0:06:14 > 0:06:19now. I think David Gauke's decision is emblematic of that. For whatever
0:06:19 > 0:06:22reason, the Government have found themselves on the wrong side of
0:06:22 > 0:06:26public opinion on this. An appalling mass serial rapist is about to be
0:06:26 > 0:06:31let out of prison this week, having served less than ten years for
0:06:31 > 0:06:37crimes most of which he wasn't even prosecuted for. They have seven or
0:06:37 > 0:06:40eight days to do this judicial review, and David Gauke has only
0:06:40 > 0:06:45done it because he is under pressure from other Cabinet ministers. The
0:06:45 > 0:06:48entire Justice Department and justice policy has really been
0:06:48 > 0:06:53interested for up to seven years because the Tory Government really
0:06:53 > 0:06:59can't make up its mind between a liberal justice establishment is
0:06:59 > 0:07:03based on rehabilitation and less time in prison and the more
0:07:03 > 0:07:07traditional Tory authoritarian lock them up and throw the key away
0:07:07 > 0:07:13system, and the consequence is today's decision. You have had five
0:07:13 > 0:07:21Justice Secretary is, from the king of soft justice himself, Ken
0:07:22 > 0:07:26of soft justice himself, Ken Clarke, and now David Gauke, so perhaps it's
0:07:26 > 0:07:31no huge surprise that the system is now in a bit of a mess.If Tom is
0:07:31 > 0:07:34right that the Government are playing catch up on John Worboys
0:07:34 > 0:07:39because of the huge public outcry, is it nonetheless the right thing to
0:07:39 > 0:07:44do?It seems to me the parole board breached their own rules. The
0:07:44 > 0:07:47victims have a right to make representations. We know that some
0:07:47 > 0:07:53of the victims whose cases were brought, and again, he is not
0:07:53 > 0:08:00convicted as a serial rapist because those cases one brought to court, a
0:08:00 > 0:08:07decision made by Kia Starmer, then the Director of Public Prosecutions.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11The other fundamental issue is a lot of what Tom was saying, that the
0:08:11 > 0:08:15Tory Government is out of touch, as I think all of the establishment and
0:08:15 > 0:08:21party leaders are. Is this ridiculous nonsense that someone is
0:08:21 > 0:08:27released halfway through a sentence, if you are sentenced to ten years or
0:08:27 > 0:08:31whatever, you should be serving the full sentence, and maybe six months
0:08:31 > 0:08:35off for good behaviour, or better still, more years on for bad
0:08:35 > 0:08:39behaviour. I think the British public think the justice system is
0:08:39 > 0:08:43an absolute joke, and they think that because it is.You raise an
0:08:43 > 0:08:47interesting point about what the public care about versus what is
0:08:47 > 0:08:51debated at Westminster. We spent an enormous amount of last year talking
0:08:51 > 0:08:55about Brexit, to the exclusion of most other things. A few other
0:08:55 > 0:09:00issues have raised their heads this week, Steve. First and foremost, the
0:09:00 > 0:09:05NHS has been causing more than a few political problems for the
0:09:05 > 0:09:09Government.If Brexit wasn't swamping everything, this would be
0:09:09 > 0:09:14the overwhelming issue. Voters are much more concerned about this than
0:09:14 > 0:09:20anything else, with good cause. At some point, there will have to be a
0:09:20 > 0:09:26grown discussion about funding of the NHS and how we pay for it.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Whether that will be possible in the current climate I doubt. But I don't
0:09:31 > 0:09:34think it's entirely impossible because I think the crisis will
0:09:34 > 0:09:43intensify. In a way, that has been overlooked, that 2017 election
0:09:43 > 0:09:46partly accepted miraculously in British politics that to get
0:09:46 > 0:09:50improvements in some services you have to pay for it. So, maybe there
0:09:50 > 0:09:54will be a grown-up debate, but don't hold your breath. In the meantime,
0:09:54 > 0:09:59it will be an issue that Theresa May will have to keep at least one eye
0:09:59 > 0:10:06on, as well as trying to negotiate the impossible with Brexit.At PMQs,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11the Prime Minister said the NHS was the best prepared it had ever been,
0:10:11 > 0:10:17and doctors were saying that patients were dying prematurely. In
0:10:17 > 0:10:25the short-term, political damage absolutely. The tanks are parked on
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Labour territory there. The general consensus in the country is not that
0:10:28 > 0:10:35they trust the Tories on the NHS, which is a big issue for them. A lot
0:10:35 > 0:10:39of the problems are down to the fact that we're getting older and living
0:10:39 > 0:10:42longer, and there are amazing treatments, operations and drugs
0:10:42 > 0:10:47that can keep us alive. We see it as a problem but it is a wonderful
0:10:47 > 0:10:49miracle of modern science and medicine and we should be grateful
0:10:49 > 0:10:57for such problems.The big news was that we were going to get a
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Government that looked more like the rest of the country in the
0:10:59 > 0:11:03reshuffle. It turned out not to be quite as dramatic as some of us
0:11:03 > 0:11:10expected. Was it a Government fail? Depends how you define fail. It has
0:11:10 > 0:11:13taken a few days for the penny to drop, though I had my suspicions on
0:11:13 > 0:11:19the night when some of the 20 15th intake got no promotions at all. It
0:11:19 > 0:11:27was a tell-tale sign. Was it a success in that it stored to the top
0:11:27 > 0:11:34of the buildings? Not really, she just rearranged the deckchairs on
0:11:34 > 0:11:46the Titanic. Caroline Noakes was attending Cabinet rather than being
0:11:46 > 0:11:50a full cabinet minister, but the Theresa May managed to fend off the
0:11:50 > 0:11:53vultures coming for her by absolutely wilfully, it now appears,
0:11:53 > 0:12:00failing to put key rivals into key positions, people like Rory Stewart,
0:12:00 > 0:12:11Dominic Raj, some of the 2015ers? It was a public fail but digging in
0:12:11 > 0:12:13privately.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Well, listening to all that is my first guest, Caroline Nokes.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18She was promoted to immigration minister in the reshuffle this
0:12:18 > 0:12:23week and, in that role, now attends Cabinet.
0:12:23 > 0:12:29Congratulations on the new job. You are presumably part of the making
0:12:29 > 0:12:36the Government look more like the country. Did the Prime Minister
0:12:36 > 0:12:39achieve that?I think she did. Look at the whip's offers, where there
0:12:39 > 0:12:43are more women than ever before. I remember coming in in 2010 and
0:12:43 > 0:12:49looking at a wet's office that was really mail.Why can't we have 50-50
0:12:49 > 0:12:52women in the Cabinet?We are heading in the right direction, there are
0:12:52 > 0:13:00two more women in the Cabinet.Even the Scottish Government has a policy
0:13:00 > 0:13:06of 50-50 in the Cabinet - surely it's possible?We started from a
0:13:06 > 0:13:11very low base of women, even elected. I think we're doing a
0:13:11 > 0:13:14fantastic job of encouraging more women to come forward, and from more
0:13:14 > 0:13:18diverse backgrounds. It is a work in progress but we are headed in the
0:13:18 > 0:13:24right direction.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29right direction. People like Kerry bad not, who went to the same
0:13:29 > 0:13:34university as I did, the University of Sussex, hardly a breeding ground
0:13:34 > 0:13:45for Tory politicians.In the Government, there are 3% non-white
0:13:45 > 0:13:49people - not very representative?We have done a good job of attracting
0:13:49 > 0:13:51more diverse people to come and stand the rise in the Government.
0:13:51 > 0:14:01Our messages, -- our message is, we're working hard to make sure that
0:14:01 > 0:14:05those bright, young women from diverse backgrounds have a chance.
0:14:05 > 0:14:11You know, it's a process, isn't it? We are all climbing up the ladder. I
0:14:11 > 0:14:15think the Cabinet looks better than it did. I have always advocated more
0:14:15 > 0:14:20women in Parliament, and the last debate I did was about getting more
0:14:20 > 0:14:23women to stand in politics, and that really matters.The big news this
0:14:23 > 0:14:28morning is the idea that the Justice Secretary may take a judicial review
0:14:28 > 0:14:32against the release of John Worboys. What is your view on that? Should do
0:14:32 > 0:14:37just this minute himself be taking judicial review is against this kind
0:14:37 > 0:14:41of decision?We will look at the victims of Worboys and we want them
0:14:41 > 0:14:45to get the support they need and to see that justice is being done. It
0:14:45 > 0:14:49is absolutely right that David Gauke is looking at a judicial review.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52None of us feel happy with the parole board decision. This is a man
0:14:52 > 0:14:59who served less than ten years, and it's a horrific number of victims.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03We can't see the parole board's decision or the reasoning for it.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06The Government could change that at a stroke and allow them to publish
0:15:06 > 0:15:11it. Should they?The Justice Secretary is reviewing the process,
0:15:11 > 0:15:14which is important. We want people to have confidence. Our justice
0:15:14 > 0:15:19system is a very old and proud one. Let's not undermine it. Let's make
0:15:19 > 0:15:24sure we get the right decisions in place.Lets get onto your own brief,
0:15:24 > 0:15:30your new brief on immigration. It means you inherit the target of
0:15:30 > 0:15:35reducing net migration to the tens of thousands. The last five
0:15:35 > 0:15:42ministers have failed, will you do it?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45The last five ministers have seen the trajectory heading down, the
0:15:45 > 0:15:51last figures we saw in the summer show it dropped significantly.It
0:15:51 > 0:15:55dropped slightly, 14,000 lower than when you came to power in 2010,
0:15:55 > 0:16:00overall net migration at 240 4000. We want to make sure this is a
0:16:00 > 0:16:03brittle open for business, that the brightest and best can come here to
0:16:03 > 0:16:10work and study. We are listening to the universities and to business via
0:16:10 > 0:16:13the immigration advisory committee...So if we are open to
0:16:13 > 0:16:16business and the brightest and best come here why have this target of
0:16:16 > 0:16:20reducing net migration to less than 100,000? Lots of Cabinet ministers
0:16:20 > 0:16:24would like to get rid of it. You could have lifted and the 2017
0:16:24 > 0:16:29manifesto and got rid of quite a headache.We had a referendum in
0:16:29 > 0:16:332016 which sent a clear message that people want that target to remain,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36they want to see as reducing immigration to sustainable levels
0:16:36 > 0:16:42and we are doing just that. It is in the manifesto so that is the
0:16:42 > 0:16:46direction of travel.Immigration from outside the EU, you claimed
0:16:46 > 0:16:51that once we leave everything will change with freedom of movement, but
0:16:51 > 0:16:55net migration from outside the EU which you have complete control over
0:16:55 > 0:16:59now, it's over 100,000 in and of itself. Why hasn't that been tackled
0:16:59 > 0:17:05in the seven years that this has now been a target?We are attacking it,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08and we are doing this I have a banking measures you have heard
0:17:08 > 0:17:11about this week, working to make sure that those with bank accounts
0:17:11 > 0:17:17and are not here legally have those Fresnel cursive necessary, that is
0:17:17 > 0:17:20important, we have a raft of measures but the current Home
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Secretary and the previous one have been clear on this, we will get
0:17:23 > 0:17:28these numbers down and do it in a manageable and sustained way.It is
0:17:28 > 0:17:35not what business one. The Tory mayor Andy Street says the target
0:17:35 > 0:17:39should be more like 150,000 so businesses can attract people with
0:17:39 > 0:17:42the skills they need and George Osborne says this is economic and
0:17:42 > 0:17:46made illiterate because we need higher migration and that --
0:17:46 > 0:17:49economically illiterate.Which is why we are listening to the
0:17:49 > 0:17:52committee which will report in September which will give a solid
0:17:52 > 0:17:57expert economist's view on what migration levels should be. But it
0:17:57 > 0:18:00was in the manifesto, we are determined to head in that direction
0:18:00 > 0:18:05and bring immigration down to a sustainable level.If you're
0:18:05 > 0:18:08immigration advisor comes to you and says somebody like Andy Street is
0:18:08 > 0:18:15right we need around 150,000 coming, will you change it? Because this was
0:18:15 > 0:18:21a manifesto promise to get it down to under 110,000 a year, so what
0:18:21 > 0:18:25will that looked like if you have disabled we didn't get it right.Am
0:18:25 > 0:18:30not going to prejudge.I and asking what you will do with their view
0:18:30 > 0:18:34because you are stuck with this promise of reducing immigration to
0:18:34 > 0:18:38tens of thousands, there's not much you can do if they oppose that.You
0:18:38 > 0:18:42are telling someone who has been in the job less than a week that she
0:18:42 > 0:18:47should make a decision on the hoof in a TV studio! Not a chance. What I
0:18:47 > 0:18:51need to do is listen to the experts and come up with the direction of
0:18:51 > 0:18:54travel that satisfies those who voted Believe in the referendum,
0:18:54 > 0:19:00that satisfies businesses, like the brilliant Russell group University
0:19:00 > 0:19:03and the one in Southampton on the edge of my constituency can still
0:19:03 > 0:19:08attract the best students. This is a really difficult complicated area.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12He mentioned the need to attract the brightest students. While other
0:19:12 > 0:19:16numbers of students coming to Britain to study included in the net
0:19:16 > 0:19:19migration figures? You could help yourselves quickly by taking them
0:19:19 > 0:19:23out of it. Just about every Cabinet member wants them removed from
0:19:23 > 0:19:28official figures, why are they there?The O M as determinate
0:19:28 > 0:19:30students should be included because they are here for more than 12
0:19:30 > 0:19:38months. We must make sure we have the public services that support
0:19:38 > 0:19:41them. Many of them go home after their study as they should but it is
0:19:41 > 0:19:45important that we work with the immigration advisory committee to
0:19:45 > 0:19:50get the right answers.You are happy about students being included in the
0:19:50 > 0:19:55migration figures?And happy we've got 24% more coming to our
0:19:55 > 0:19:59universities than we had in 2010. I'm happy that we are attracting a
0:19:59 > 0:20:04great calibre of student here, I'm equally happy that our former
0:20:04 > 0:20:07feminists are cracked down on bogus colleges and close them because we
0:20:07 > 0:20:12want bright students to come here and in the -- that our former Prime
0:20:12 > 0:20:17Minister cracked down on bogus colleges and closed them.Button
0:20:17 > 0:20:21back to the panel, Steve Camille can't envy the new Immigration
0:20:21 > 0:20:26Minister being tasked with reducing immigration to a level that no other
0:20:26 > 0:20:31Immigration Minister has been able to achieve.I don't envy you, I
0:20:31 > 0:20:35don't know your Private view but I do note that most Cabinet ministers
0:20:35 > 0:20:39don't want student numbers to be part of the total figure and Theresa
0:20:39 > 0:20:45May alone is still pressing this. I've just been doing a series about
0:20:45 > 0:20:49a David Cameron. He made a series of targets which were never met, as you
0:20:49 > 0:20:54said in the interview. Good luck with that. Lots of people I meet now
0:20:54 > 0:21:01who were in favour of Brexit, like farmers, pleading, as you will know,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04for cheap Labour from Eastern Europe to continue. They don't want to fill
0:21:04 > 0:21:13in loads more forms to get them. So there's a lot of talk
0:21:15 > 0:21:18there's a lot of talk about Nimby free movement and you have a tough
0:21:18 > 0:21:23brief.Julia, should net immigration be reduced to tens of thousands, is
0:21:23 > 0:21:28it important to the public?I find it bizarre they asked to a target
0:21:28 > 0:21:32they've never done anything to reach, certainly the immigration
0:21:32 > 0:21:35levels that they were able to control under the coalition and
0:21:35 > 0:21:40David Cameron on his own, the numbers can't be controlled
0:21:40 > 0:21:44completely, they never even came close, it was more than double,
0:21:44 > 0:21:49about 250,000. I find this row about students strange. If you live in the
0:21:49 > 0:21:52country for three or four years you need somewhere to live, you'll be
0:21:52 > 0:21:56getting buses and trains, might need to go to the hospital, is that the
0:21:56 > 0:22:00idea that these people don't exist because they are not here
0:22:00 > 0:22:04permanently? And some of them do stay. It's ridiculous. We need a
0:22:04 > 0:22:11sensible debate. Brexit wasn't about ending immigration. It was about us.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14Like virtually every other country in the world choosing who gets to
0:22:14 > 0:22:18come here. If you are qualified and have a skill we need we would love
0:22:18 > 0:22:24to have you, come on in, the water is lovely! But if we just want cheap
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Labour subsidised by the taxpayer with a housing benefit, to do jobs
0:22:29 > 0:22:32not paid enough, then I don't think we should. When it comes to farmers
0:22:32 > 0:22:39we should pay more for...Julia has given quite a good explanation of
0:22:39 > 0:22:43why the target was set up and should probably stay because if there is no
0:22:43 > 0:22:47target, then cheap Labour will continue to flow in because it's the
0:22:47 > 0:22:52easiest thing for business to do. If you are limited in who you can bring
0:22:52 > 0:22:56in new might turn to the indigenous British population and start hiring
0:22:56 > 0:23:01them to do decent jobs they are perfectly capable of doing.The
0:23:01 > 0:23:05panel will be staying with us throughout the programme. Thank you
0:23:05 > 0:23:08to Caroline Nokes, the Immigration Minister, for coming in.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11Now with all the other stuff that's been going on this week,
0:23:11 > 0:23:13you might be concerned we'd forgotten about the small
0:23:13 > 0:23:14matter of Brexit.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17But don't worry, it's still very much on the agenda.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20Having sealed a deal on the divorce talks,
0:23:20 > 0:23:21the focus is now shifting to the future relationship.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23The EU says we can only have an 'off-the-shelf' model,
0:23:23 > 0:23:26like the deals with Norway or Canada; but the UK Government
0:23:26 > 0:23:30says we can be far more ambitious, as Elizabeth Glinka reports.
0:23:30 > 0:23:36# Do you have the time # To listen to me whine?#.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43In her Florence speech, Theresa May made it
0:23:43 > 0:23:45clear that when it comes to
0:23:45 > 0:23:48trade negotiations with the EU, the UK isn't looking for any
0:23:48 > 0:23:49off-the-shelf kind of deal.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53It wants something special and bespoke.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55I'm optimistic about what we can achieve
0:23:55 > 0:23:58by finding a creative solution to a new economic relationship that
0:23:58 > 0:24:03can support prosperity for all our peoples.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06Before Christmas, the senior official in charge of Brexit
0:24:06 > 0:24:08told the Cabinet that when it comes to that
0:24:08 > 0:24:12creative solution, they
0:24:12 > 0:24:14should start thinking in terms of three baskets, what some people
0:24:14 > 0:24:16are calling managed divergence.
0:24:16 > 0:24:17The Institute for Government has been
0:24:17 > 0:24:21looking at what it means.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23Three baskets corresponds to the three areas
0:24:23 > 0:24:25that Theresa May spoke about in her Florence speech.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27We have full alignment, where we will continue to
0:24:27 > 0:24:30meet the same outcomes in the same way as we do now.
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Regulatory equivalence is where we will
0:24:31 > 0:24:34continue to meet the same outcomes as the EU
0:24:34 > 0:24:35but might go about it in a
0:24:35 > 0:24:37slightly different way.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41And then the final basket around divergence,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44where we will go about things in a different way and may choose
0:24:44 > 0:24:45to take completely different outcomes at the
0:24:45 > 0:24:48end of it.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50OK, so if we were to look at particular industries, say
0:24:50 > 0:24:53something like aviation, maybe workers' rights, we might put them
0:24:53 > 0:24:57in this basket because we are saying not much is going to change.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59It would be very difficult to put
0:24:59 > 0:25:02whole industries and whole sectors in specific baskets.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06If you take agriculture, for example, state aid
0:25:06 > 0:25:11and how much overall we can subsidise our farmers may well sit
0:25:11 > 0:25:14in full alignment, whereas issues about agricultural and environmental
0:25:14 > 0:25:16protection standards, we could continue to
0:25:16 > 0:25:18meet the same goals but
0:25:18 > 0:25:22by different means, and they can sit in the middle basket.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Whereas, actually, exactly what we subsidise
0:25:25 > 0:25:28our farmers for could be completely up to the UK and sit in the
0:25:28 > 0:25:29divergent basket.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32So it would be very difficult to put single sectors
0:25:32 > 0:25:34in single baskets.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37If the UK is looking for a high degree of access
0:25:37 > 0:25:39to the single market, then the EU will expect
0:25:39 > 0:25:42lots of things ending up in the full alignment basket,
0:25:42 > 0:25:45whereas the UK will probably want to try and pull as much as possible
0:25:45 > 0:25:48into the regulatory equivalence basket.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52Of course, the point of all this is is to remind the EU that
0:25:52 > 0:25:56when it comes to these negotiations, the UK is in a unique position
0:25:56 > 0:25:59because currently we are completely in sync.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02It's in the interests of Britain and the EU to get on
0:26:02 > 0:26:07together.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11People are thinking that it's a binary thing, we are either
0:26:11 > 0:26:14in the EU or we're out, that it's night and day, but it isn't.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16The point about managed divergence is
0:26:16 > 0:26:17that it does give us much more flexibility.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20We can decide for ourselves which bits we want to keep
0:26:20 > 0:26:23and which bits we want to amend or get rid of.
0:26:23 > 0:26:24And I think...
0:26:24 > 0:26:25I think that's a huge opportunity.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27Philip Hammond and David Davies have been
0:26:27 > 0:26:29on a charm offensive in Germany this week,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31so just how are those very British baskets going down in
0:26:31 > 0:26:32Brussels?
0:26:32 > 0:26:35There is a concern that the UK will take a shopping basket,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38pick off the elements of the major trade agreements the EU has secured
0:26:38 > 0:26:40with third countries, take all those together.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43It gets the UK very close to full membership of the single
0:26:43 > 0:26:45market without any of the obligations, so I think
0:26:45 > 0:26:50they view managed divergence as another way in
0:26:50 > 0:26:54which the UK either hopes to cherry pick or have its cake and eat it.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56All member states will agree that they can't
0:26:56 > 0:26:58set a precedent with the
0:26:58 > 0:27:00UK that then sets internal challenges for themselves over the
0:27:00 > 0:27:02medium to longer term.
0:27:02 > 0:27:08Now, what goes into these baskets remains a
0:27:09 > 0:27:12bit of a mystery, but of course, there are deadlines because the next
0:27:12 > 0:27:14round of talks is due to get under way
0:27:14 > 0:27:15this spring.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:27:18 > 0:27:22and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24With me now is the Shadow International Trade
0:27:24 > 0:27:29Secretary, Barry Gardiner.
0:27:29 > 0:27:36Welcome to the programme, thank you for coming back. We were learning
0:27:36 > 0:27:39about the different baskets, full alignment, regulatory alignment.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Labour say you want to give all the benefits and the single market so
0:27:43 > 0:27:49presumably want to stay as much in alignment as we do already?What
0:27:49 > 0:27:52we've said is that the government have said we could have all the
0:27:52 > 0:27:57benefits and we will hold them to that.To do that, we must keep most
0:27:57 > 0:28:04of what we can in the full alignment basket?We want to make sure we get
0:28:04 > 0:28:08as much of the benefits as we currently have once we have left the
0:28:08 > 0:28:14EU.You can't do that and diverged. Absolutely. That's the point.
0:28:14 > 0:28:18Diverges from that, whether through a trade deal with another country or
0:28:18 > 0:28:24whether it is simply because we want to deregulate our standards in the
0:28:24 > 0:28:28UK is going to cause a problem with maintaining the sort of trade we
0:28:28 > 0:28:32have with Europe. It's going to cause that economic bond. But we
0:28:32 > 0:28:36want to make sure we have a Brexit that is for jobs, for the economy
0:28:36 > 0:28:40and that's why we see the benefits of the single market, the benefits
0:28:40 > 0:28:44of the customs union, and swipe we said we wouldn't rule is off the
0:28:44 > 0:28:48table. Whereas the government precisely said it would. And that is
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the red lines that Theresa May put in place that are now causing her
0:28:51 > 0:28:57all these other problems.They've caused a few problems in policy for
0:28:57 > 0:29:00Labour as well because the closer you want to stay to single market
0:29:00 > 0:29:03rules, if we've loved the single market because that is government
0:29:03 > 0:29:09policy, more alignment would have -- if we've left. That is us accepting
0:29:09 > 0:29:13rules we had no say in making, a state you have described as being a
0:29:13 > 0:29:19vassal state.These other uses we really have to resolve. Because you
0:29:19 > 0:29:23are right, once we leave the EU that means we are not a member of the
0:29:23 > 0:29:28single market. It doesn't mean we can't trade into the single market,
0:29:28 > 0:29:33of course we can. We can do that in the same way that Norway does. But
0:29:33 > 0:29:36our economy is very different from that of Norway. And what we need to
0:29:36 > 0:29:41be sure about is when we are making our rules in this country we are
0:29:41 > 0:29:45doing it as close as possible to maintain the trade and the economic
0:29:45 > 0:29:49benefits we get in the European Union.There have been reports this
0:29:49 > 0:29:53week that Labour is working on a policy that would involve staying in
0:29:53 > 0:29:59the customs union. The Robert Peston programme on ITV...That could not
0:29:59 > 0:30:04be the case. I'm sorry to correct you on a technicality. But once you
0:30:04 > 0:30:08leave the EU you leave the treaties and it is the treaties that create
0:30:08 > 0:30:16the customs union. So we could not be a member of the customs union.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21You could be remember of a customs union, which is what Jeremy Corbyn
0:30:21 > 0:30:26was talking about on TV this morning.He was talking about the
0:30:26 > 0:30:29transition period immediately after leaving the EU. That has been our
0:30:29 > 0:30:34position for many months. We were the ones that said, in that
0:30:34 > 0:30:36transitional period, we want the status quo. We want to maintain
0:30:36 > 0:30:42things that are... We want to maintain a customs union and single
0:30:42 > 0:30:47market during that transition.Let's talk about the future after the
0:30:47 > 0:30:53transition period. Let's look at what you said you thought were the
0:30:53 > 0:30:58consequences.
0:31:03 > 0:31:08consequences. Do you still agree with that?I was specifically
0:31:08 > 0:31:12referring to, and if you go back on that quote a little bit, you will
0:31:12 > 0:31:16find we were talking about the turkey situation, which was a
0:31:16 > 0:31:20customs union agreement with the EU. That would be a very bad end point
0:31:20 > 0:31:23for us, because it would mean that the European Union ended up doing
0:31:23 > 0:31:27all the negotiations for trade for the UK. We would have to open our
0:31:27 > 0:31:33markets to any other company in -- any other country they made an
0:31:33 > 0:31:37agreement with. But that country would not have to liberalise its
0:31:37 > 0:31:41markets and open itself up to our goods and services.The common
0:31:41 > 0:31:44commercial policy is what governs all of this and binds us in with
0:31:44 > 0:31:47these trade treaties. The UK Government say they want to leave
0:31:47 > 0:31:55that. Is that the Labour position? We will be...Would you like to join
0:31:55 > 0:32:00something similar once we are no longer members of the EU?I already
0:32:00 > 0:32:04said, we believe that the benefits of what we currently have should be
0:32:04 > 0:32:07maintained as much as possible, and that means that whilst we cannot
0:32:07 > 0:32:12stay in the customs union, we should not have a turkey style customs
0:32:12 > 0:32:15union agreement, because that would be an asymmetrical relationship with
0:32:15 > 0:32:21any trading partner. What we do see as a possibility, and it is what we
0:32:21 > 0:32:32have not ruled out, which is to have a new customs union with the
0:32:32 > 0:32:35European Union, and that is something very interesting wave
0:32:35 > 0:32:40which in paragraph 31 of the cross-border trade taxation bill
0:32:40 > 0:32:45which came in on Monday from the Government, and which we debated
0:32:45 > 0:32:50them, they have actually put provision for that, a new customs
0:32:50 > 0:32:53union, where we would be an equal member.But you cannot possibly
0:32:53 > 0:32:58believe that you can have the benefits of being in a reformed
0:32:58 > 0:33:01customs union relationship with the EU and still have total freedom to
0:33:01 > 0:33:05make new trade deals. You have said you don't want anything which
0:33:05 > 0:33:08precludes us from making independent trade agreements with some of our
0:33:08 > 0:33:14bigger partners.Let's be clear about the nexus of problems we are
0:33:14 > 0:33:21trying to solve the run work our way through. You have, within the
0:33:21 > 0:33:24referendum, a clarity that people were voting for certain political
0:33:24 > 0:33:29issues, whether that was in terms of immigration, regaining sovereignty,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32or simply not paying money into Europe. All of these were things
0:33:32 > 0:33:37people thought they were voting for. If you were to be in a relationship
0:33:37 > 0:33:43in which some of those continued to be the case, where we were rule
0:33:43 > 0:33:52takers and not rule setters, as Norway is at the moment, and they
0:33:52 > 0:33:55are told they have no right to decide what the rules are going to
0:33:55 > 0:33:58be, that is a political problem which many people in this country
0:33:58 > 0:34:03would feel, what was the referendum all about if we don't achieve that?
0:34:03 > 0:34:09Let's...Just let me... I don't think it's clear, the problems we
0:34:09 > 0:34:12are trying to solve. We want to maintain a maximum economic benefit,
0:34:12 > 0:34:16to get the economic benefit of the jobs that we currently get from the
0:34:16 > 0:34:21trading relationship we have in a customs union and in a single market
0:34:21 > 0:34:25with the European Union. But to do that respecting the referendum will
0:34:25 > 0:34:28of the people for those political objectives.We understand that
0:34:28 > 0:34:37point.Labour has to bring back the 42 purse -- the 52% under 48%.We
0:34:37 > 0:34:41understand need to move you on to something else.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44something else. We have
0:34:44 > 0:34:44something else. We have heard the
0:34:44 > 0:34:46new Tory chairman Brandon Lewis say today that
0:34:46 > 0:34:51today that if any... He wants new Tory candidates to sign up to a
0:34:51 > 0:34:54respect pledge that they will conduct themselves on Twitter and in
0:34:54 > 0:34:57what they say in a respectful way, otherwise they will be removed as
0:34:57 > 0:35:00candidates.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03candidates.Of course, that's right. Jeremy Corbyn said that Labour
0:35:03 > 0:35:07should do it too. It raises questions about some Labour MPs.
0:35:07 > 0:35:13Jarrod O'Mara, for example, who has had the whip suspended.An
0:35:13 > 0:35:17investigation is being conducted, as is appropriate, within all the
0:35:17 > 0:35:22procedures of our party. Absolutely right, suspended.Because of remarks
0:35:22 > 0:35:27he made about women and homophobic comments. Then you look at the
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, against whom no action has been
0:35:30 > 0:35:35taken, and he has said a number of things, but one of them which has
0:35:35 > 0:35:38been heavily criticised is that he
0:35:38 > 0:35:41been heavily criticised is that he wanted... Well, he agreed with
0:35:41 > 0:35:45people who wanted to see Esther McVeigh lynched. We have the audio
0:35:45 > 0:35:51of this. Let's listen and then we will ask you about it.I was up in
0:35:51 > 0:35:53Liverpool a fortnight ago...
0:36:19 > 0:36:25And obviously, he used a word that we won't be saying on TV, but is
0:36:25 > 0:36:30that respectful language?It is not language I would have used. Earlier
0:36:30 > 0:36:34language I would have used. Earlier today, you have been quoting
0:36:34 > 0:36:37today, you have been quoting remarks that were made by the President of
0:36:37 > 0:36:41the United States which were deeply offensive and unacceptable.Yes.
0:36:41 > 0:36:47Hang on.But this is about the Labour Party...And you quoted. The
0:36:47 > 0:36:52point I am making is that he was quoting what someone else was
0:36:52 > 0:36:56saying, and I would not have chosen to do that.He was clearly quoting
0:36:56 > 0:37:00with approval, not reporting it.The underlying issue which the
0:37:00 > 0:37:06Conservatives have been trying to cover up through all the
0:37:06 > 0:37:08cover up through all the smear on John McDonnell, Esther McVeigh, who
0:37:08 > 0:37:12was a Department for Work and Pensions minister, and at a time
0:37:12 > 0:37:17when she was in charge of work and pensions as a minister, her company
0:37:17 > 0:37:21had been reported for breach of health and safety guidelines. She is
0:37:21 > 0:37:24one of the ministers,
0:37:24 > 0:37:26one of the ministers, and for that reason...Jeremy Corbyn said we
0:37:26 > 0:37:31should stick to policies and use respectful language. That wasn't
0:37:31 > 0:37:34respect.That's what I'm doing now, and I'm trying to make the
0:37:34 > 0:37:39underlying political point about what's going on here. She was in
0:37:39 > 0:37:42charge of a department in which she was responsible for health and
0:37:42 > 0:37:47safety when her own company which she was
0:37:47 > 0:37:52she was a director of, a construction company, they had been
0:37:52 > 0:37:54construction company, they had been suspended, their work had had to be
0:37:54 > 0:37:58suspended twice within three months for breach of
0:37:58 > 0:38:00for breach of those health and safety guidelines, putting workers
0:38:00 > 0:38:03at risk in her own company.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05at risk in her own company. She is also somebody...We will have to
0:38:05 > 0:38:11leave it there. Thank you very much for that. It is coming up to
0:38:11 > 0:38:1511:40am.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:38:18 > 0:38:19Coming up on the programme...
0:38:19 > 0:38:21Even the Scottish Tories now say
0:38:21 > 0:38:25Westminster's Withdrawal Bill isn't fit for purpose.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28I'll be asking the Minister for Brexit if this legislation
0:38:28 > 0:38:30will ever gain consent from the Scottish Parliament.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34And after plans for bans on cotton buds and plastics are announced,
0:38:34 > 0:38:36is it time to consider banning all waste?
0:38:36 > 0:38:43We'll be looking into the zero-waste economy.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45Good morning and welcome to the programme.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49A new year, a new round of rhetoric on Brexit.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51Nicola Sturgeon says the lack of planning by the British
0:38:51 > 0:38:53Government "beggars belief" and has been talking about everything
0:38:53 > 0:38:56from refusing to endorse the Brexit Bill in the Scottish Parliament
0:38:56 > 0:38:59to holding another independence referendum.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01And the Scottish Conservatives are now unhappy
0:39:01 > 0:39:03about the Brexit bill too.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06But behind the rhetoric, what do the different sides want?
0:39:06 > 0:39:09I'll be talking to the Conservatives in a moment, but first I'm joined
0:39:09 > 0:39:11by the Scottish Government's Brexit secretary Mike Russell,
0:39:11 > 0:39:15who's in Inveraray.
0:39:15 > 0:39:20He is still on his tour of the scenic parts of Scotland. Before we
0:39:20 > 0:39:24talk about a Brexit, let me ask you about Correlli, because I know there
0:39:24 > 0:39:31are fears about what might happen if the company goes down. Is the
0:39:31 > 0:39:34Scottish Government taking any action ahead of this?
0:39:34 > 0:39:40We are very engaged in the issue and Keith Brown is very focused on it.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44We are liaising with the UK Government, but we have some
0:39:44 > 0:39:48assurances about the major project, the Aberdeen peripheral route which
0:39:48 > 0:39:51Carillion is one of the few parts of the consortium. We are concerned
0:39:51 > 0:39:57about the workforce, a great number of people who work for them and in a
0:39:57 > 0:40:01number of areas, so this is a worrying time for them, a worrying
0:40:01 > 0:40:07time for everyone involved in the company. We will work with the UK
0:40:07 > 0:40:12Government and work with the company to try to find a way forward.
0:40:12 > 0:40:17On the Aberdeen project, the bypass, are you saying it will continue
0:40:17 > 0:40:20irrespective of what happens to Karelian?
0:40:20 > 0:40:24We understand that is the case. Which this is a technical issue,
0:40:24 > 0:40:31there is a great deal of detail, but we understand the work is secure and
0:40:31 > 0:40:35that is of great importance. And it is important to the workers on the
0:40:35 > 0:40:39project because it is a big project that has been going on for a long
0:40:39 > 0:40:44time. On Brexit, I am keen to get what the
0:40:44 > 0:40:48areas of dissension are. On the Brexit bill, they seem to be two
0:40:48 > 0:40:52areas. There are detailed discussions about devolution, but
0:40:52 > 0:40:57there is an issue of principle which clause 11 of the Withdrawal Bill
0:40:57 > 0:41:04appears to contradict the Scotland Act and assumes powers should not be
0:41:04 > 0:41:07modifiable when they come to Britain by the Scottish Government unless it
0:41:07 > 0:41:13is approved by the British Government. When Theresa May says as
0:41:13 > 0:41:17she is prepared to make amendments, is she prepared to make amendments
0:41:17 > 0:41:23to that principle? That is the issue, and it is not
0:41:23 > 0:41:26just the Scottish Government's position, it is the Scottish
0:41:26 > 0:41:31Parliament's permission, it was unanimously taken as that view. It
0:41:31 > 0:41:36is the view of the Welsh Government and of a number of organisations in
0:41:36 > 0:41:44Scotland and it is the view of the Scottish Conservatives. The UK
0:41:44 > 0:41:52Government have to amend the bill, amend clause 11 and remove the
0:41:52 > 0:41:54difficulties that the clause contains. There is no other way for
0:41:54 > 0:42:00this bill to get legislative consent. We have been promised that,
0:42:00 > 0:42:06David Mundell promised it last year, Damian Green promised it and it has
0:42:06 > 0:42:10not happened. That is the problem. They have to make sure it happens
0:42:10 > 0:42:14because without that there is no approval. I was speaking at a
0:42:14 > 0:42:18conference in Ireland along my Welsh counterpart and we both made it
0:42:18 > 0:42:23crystal clear from the platform, without the amendments, there is no
0:42:23 > 0:42:27legislative consent from Wales or Scotland, and that crazy situation
0:42:27 > 0:42:32with the House of Lords who has to decide whether they can pass it
0:42:32 > 0:42:36without legislative consent. What I want to get at is you have
0:42:36 > 0:42:39been having talks with the British Government. What is the problem?
0:42:39 > 0:42:44Added British Government saying yeah, we see point?
0:42:44 > 0:42:49The point is conceded, but they have not amended it. The Welsh Government
0:42:49 > 0:42:52has produced an amendment, a joint amendment, the first time we have
0:42:52 > 0:42:58ever done about, we put those forward, the Tories voted it down,
0:42:58 > 0:43:02including the Scottish Tory MPs voted it down and came along with
0:43:02 > 0:43:07their own amendment. We said as long as it has the same effect, and we
0:43:07 > 0:43:11can agree it, we will be happy with that. It has not appeared, we have
0:43:11 > 0:43:20not had it. I want to be clear on this. As you
0:43:20 > 0:43:22are understanding, the British Government has accepted the point of
0:43:22 > 0:43:27principle about clause 11 that it contradicts the Scotland Act opened
0:43:27 > 0:43:33is attending to -- intending to amend that so powers that are not
0:43:33 > 0:43:38the adult -- that the British Government had accepted it.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41My understanding is they have accepted that point but they have to
0:43:41 > 0:43:48produce the words that accept it. For some reason they are not doing
0:43:48 > 0:43:52so and are being resistant about it and they have to do it. I am pleased
0:43:52 > 0:43:56that Ruth Davidson has made that point, we are all making it, but it
0:43:56 > 0:44:00has to be taken by the Prime Minister and get some action. It is
0:44:00 > 0:44:05absolutely clear that without that there is no legislative consent.
0:44:05 > 0:44:14You were in Ireland. In a speech there, you talked about how you and
0:44:14 > 0:44:18your Government would like Britain and Scotland to remain in the
0:44:18 > 0:44:24customs union, single market, and you said that is a minimum fall us.
0:44:24 > 0:44:31Is this it is a different issue? You are not saying you will will pass
0:44:31 > 0:44:34this until we can stay in the single market?
0:44:34 > 0:44:41These are not the same issue. In Ireland, a wide-ranging discussion
0:44:41 > 0:44:44with people including Arlene Foster and the leader of the main
0:44:44 > 0:44:47opposition party, we were discussing the wider issues of Brexit, and this
0:44:47 > 0:44:53was also in the area of the paper that the Government will publish
0:44:53 > 0:45:01tomorrow.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04tomorrow. There is this Canada plus trade deal, and the point we are
0:45:04 > 0:45:08making is it is bad enough to have to leave. We do not think it is a
0:45:08 > 0:45:14good idea, it will be damaging. The least bad option is continued
0:45:14 > 0:45:19membership of the single market and the customs union. That is, anything
0:45:19 > 0:45:22beyond that, it will be problematic. Even that will have its
0:45:22 > 0:45:28difficulties.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30difficulties. People have been watching this programme in the last
0:45:30 > 0:45:3320 minutes and heard lots of nonsense from the Labour Party. It
0:45:33 > 0:45:39is possible and it has to happen to protect Scotland's interests.
0:45:39 > 0:45:44This is a separate issue from whether you would recommend the
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Scottish Parliament passed a motion of legislative consent, that is the
0:45:46 > 0:45:52crucial point. The motion is a process of
0:45:52 > 0:45:57negotiation that has been underway since July and still be Tories have
0:45:57 > 0:46:02not done what they need to do. I can't understand it, though it is
0:46:02 > 0:46:06typical of the chaos within the UK Government.
0:46:06 > 0:46:12You have complained about the fact that the amendments were not brought
0:46:12 > 0:46:16forward when the bill was before the House of Commons. Given the failure
0:46:16 > 0:46:22to bring forward the amendments and the Scottish secretary David Mundell
0:46:22 > 0:46:28promised to bring them forward, is his position untenable?
0:46:28 > 0:46:32his position untenable? -- untenable?
0:46:32 > 0:46:39If they do not come forward in a way that is... David rang me on
0:46:39 > 0:46:45Wednesday to tell me we were in a situation where he could not bring
0:46:45 > 0:46:51the report stage, despite a clear assurance it would happen. The House
0:46:51 > 0:46:56of Lords is not elected and we do not have representatives there, so
0:46:56 > 0:47:00there is considerable difficulties in the matter. He will have to
0:47:00 > 0:47:05continue to steer it forward, but so far he has not steered it very far.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Have you identified a peer who can act in your interests in the House
0:47:08 > 0:47:14of Lords? There are a number of peers who are
0:47:14 > 0:47:20going to speak on this and I will be speaking to, briefing members of the
0:47:20 > 0:47:23House of Lords over the next fortnight and there will be peers
0:47:23 > 0:47:28who make this point. The legislative procedures of the House of Commons
0:47:28 > 0:47:32and House of Lords are pretty arcane. It will appear in various
0:47:32 > 0:47:38stages in the next couple of months. We will also be in bridging the
0:47:38 > 0:47:41House of Lords to bring forward the type of amendment that the Welsh and
0:47:41 > 0:47:45Scottish governments drew up and put the House of Commons, which was
0:47:45 > 0:47:48actually put by all the other parties in the House of Commons,
0:47:48 > 0:47:53they joined together to propose the amendments that the two governments
0:47:53 > 0:47:58had brought in. It was the Tories that voted it down. We hope in the
0:47:58 > 0:48:03House of Lords there will be a majority for that.
0:48:03 > 0:48:08Nicola Sturgeon said the prospect of a second referendum on membership of
0:48:08 > 0:48:12the EU may become irresistible, but then she said she was not
0:48:12 > 0:48:21campaigning for it. If it is irresistible, we also know that your
0:48:21 > 0:48:25Government had meetings with Willie Rennie who are campaigning for a
0:48:25 > 0:48:30second referendum. He says it did not get a clear response. Why are
0:48:30 > 0:48:33you not campaigning for a second referendum?
0:48:33 > 0:48:37It is clearly not the time where that would take place. At the
0:48:37 > 0:48:41present moment, there is absolute confusion about what will take
0:48:41 > 0:48:45place. The three options for leaving, the UK Government has not
0:48:45 > 0:48:52preferred what it prefers. The EU 27 I tried to be more specific, but
0:48:52 > 0:48:56what was agreed last year before talks of the trade issues in March
0:48:56 > 0:49:02this year. The First Minister is right to say that the people are
0:49:02 > 0:49:08important, the people of Scotland and the UK will want to say
0:49:08 > 0:49:12something about this. Our view is that we have to address those issues
0:49:12 > 0:49:16and we will address them with the Liberal Democrats, there are
0:49:16 > 0:49:21questions to be answered about what would happen if Scotland voted,
0:49:21 > 0:49:27continued to revote to remain and the rest of the UK voted to leave.
0:49:27 > 0:49:31A discussion is underway. It is not been ruled out.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35You say it has not been ruled out. One of the points that Jim Sellers
0:49:35 > 0:49:40has been making is that it was a UK referendum, it was understood that
0:49:40 > 0:49:45the British people would be accepted, their decision. If you
0:49:45 > 0:49:49start the campaign for another referendum, you could be staring up
0:49:49 > 0:49:55all sorts of problems if you have another independence referendum,
0:49:55 > 0:50:00what would you say to him?
0:50:00 > 0:50:06I would tell him he had not understood something. The vote in
0:50:06 > 0:50:13Scotland was sold to save as late against leaving. -- decisively. All
0:50:13 > 0:50:20the opinion polls has shown that this has grown, there is a
0:50:20 > 0:50:24democratic swell in Scotland there does not want to be taken out of the
0:50:24 > 0:50:30EU.
0:50:30 > 0:50:36EU.We will have to leave it there. You will be glad, although it is
0:50:36 > 0:50:39beautiful, it looks as if you are freezing.It is cold.
0:50:39 > 0:50:42Listening to that and with me now is the Scottish Conservative's
0:50:42 > 0:50:47constitution spokesperson Adam Tomkins.
0:50:47 > 0:50:53Is David Mundell's position tenable? Of course it is. What has happened
0:50:53 > 0:50:58this week is what I have described as a deeply frustrating and
0:50:58 > 0:51:03disappointing delay. There is no change of direction or policy by the
0:51:03 > 0:51:09British government. They will amend the bill. We had hoped to be able to
0:51:09 > 0:51:17do that in the House of Commons. It has turned out not to be possible to
0:51:17 > 0:51:22do that. We will have to do it in the House of Lords rather than the
0:51:22 > 0:51:26House of Commons.Is Mike Russell correct, he says the British
0:51:26 > 0:51:31government has accepted that this contentious clause 11, explain to
0:51:31 > 0:51:35people, this is the clause that seems to contradict the Scotland
0:51:35 > 0:51:38act. Mike Russell says the British government has accepted it needs to
0:51:38 > 0:51:44be amended to restore, if you like, the spirit of the originals Scotland
0:51:44 > 0:51:49act.Is that your understanding? Let's be clear about what we are
0:51:49 > 0:51:54talking about, there are 111 powers exercised the EU level which fall in
0:51:54 > 0:51:58the devolved confidence of the Scottish Government. The question is
0:51:58 > 0:52:03what happens to those powers when we leave the European Union? Do they
0:52:03 > 0:52:08come to Scotland or Westminster?The basic issue is that things are
0:52:08 > 0:52:13assumed to be devolved in the Scotland act or the opposite.There
0:52:13 > 0:52:17is a fundamental principle on which Scottish devolution rests and has
0:52:17 > 0:52:21rested since its creature in 20 years ago, that everything is
0:52:21 > 0:52:26devolved unless it is expressly reserved. That is where the clause
0:52:26 > 0:52:32has to be amended to be clear. That is the position not just of the SNP,
0:52:32 > 0:52:39it is the position of everybody in a Scottish Government. It is the
0:52:39 > 0:52:44position of a committee I sit in, it is relatively easy to be done. The
0:52:44 > 0:52:48reason why there is a hold-up is because it is important that some of
0:52:48 > 0:52:53those powers, not all of them, but a minority of powers are exercised by
0:52:53 > 0:53:03Holyrood, subject to UK weight elements.But that seems to be
0:53:03 > 0:53:09accepted by the SNP as well. For example on farming. They do not seem
0:53:09 > 0:53:15to...The accept. I have always said a deal can be struck on this issue.
0:53:15 > 0:53:20Both governments want consent. Both the United Kingdom government and
0:53:20 > 0:53:23the Scottish Government want to be in a position whereby Holyrood can
0:53:23 > 0:53:27give its consent to this legislation so we can have a smooth Brexit. And
0:53:27 > 0:53:32both governments accept that there will be a need for what are cold
0:53:32 > 0:53:35Common frameworks. Across the whole of the UK or across Great Britain as
0:53:35 > 0:53:42the case may be. That will govern how some of these powers, not all of
0:53:42 > 0:53:46them, but how some of these powers will be exercised. That is a
0:53:46 > 0:53:50principle agreement but the reason for the delay is because there is
0:53:50 > 0:53:54quite a lot of detailed work going on about what happens in the event
0:53:54 > 0:53:58of a breach of those common frameworks. Let's see there is a
0:53:58 > 0:54:03common framework and agriculture. And Scottish ministers... Your
0:54:03 > 0:54:06argument is that the Supreme Court could have a real in that?There is
0:54:06 > 0:54:10a discussion going on between governments about what the
0:54:10 > 0:54:14appropriate mechanism will be for reviewing such disagreements and
0:54:14 > 0:54:19resolving such disagreements. That is the kind of level of detail that
0:54:19 > 0:54:22we are talking about. We had hoped that we would resolve all of these
0:54:22 > 0:54:30issues in December. We are still committed to resolving them.Let's
0:54:30 > 0:54:34see the Scottish Government refuses to pass our legislative consent
0:54:34 > 0:54:38motion. What are the implications of that?I don't think that will
0:54:38 > 0:54:43happen. I hope that will not happen. For all of the reasons I have sought
0:54:43 > 0:54:48to explain that we can resolve this issue without coming to that. We are
0:54:48 > 0:54:52talking about hypotheticals. If it comes to that, and then as the
0:54:52 > 0:54:56minister said, the House of Lords will have to decide whether it wants
0:54:56 > 0:55:02to go ahead with this bill are not. Legislative consent is not a legal
0:55:02 > 0:55:07requirement for this legislation to be enacted by Westminster, but it is
0:55:07 > 0:55:12probably a political requirement and the political price of enacting
0:55:12 > 0:55:15legislation without consent might be quite significant indeed. But I do
0:55:15 > 0:55:21not think it will come to this. Meaning what? If it falls, it will
0:55:21 > 0:55:28be difficult to the liver Brexit at all. I do not think it is...-- till
0:55:28 > 0:55:35over. You do not think it is going to happen. Why would it be duller --
0:55:35 > 0:55:42difficult to deliver Brexit?After a set day, is that legislation is not
0:55:42 > 0:55:46passed, there will not be any legislation to make sense of the
0:55:46 > 0:55:50statute book.Let's say the legislation is passed but with the
0:55:50 > 0:55:54consent motion.There will be a political argument between the
0:55:54 > 0:55:57Scottish Government and the United Kingdom government.I don't want to
0:55:57 > 0:56:03put words in their ice, I can imagine some Conservative MPs seem
0:56:03 > 0:56:08from the shires in England saying, this is not a legal requirement, the
0:56:08 > 0:56:14SNP, we know what they are about. It it does not matter, they can decide
0:56:14 > 0:56:19to disagree, it will not matter. What would you say? It will be
0:56:19 > 0:56:23irrelevant. This is going to be dealt with in the House of Lords not
0:56:23 > 0:56:28the House of Commons. We are getting, we are several steps ahead
0:56:28 > 0:56:31of ourselves here, there is no reason that any of these things will
0:56:31 > 0:56:35happen. Both governments are committed to a resolution to this
0:56:35 > 0:56:39issue. There is a relatively easy solution to find, both governments
0:56:39 > 0:56:43are committed to the idea there should be some common frameworks
0:56:43 > 0:56:47using these powers after we have left the European Union and we are
0:56:47 > 0:56:50in the process now of bottoming out what those common frameworks will
0:56:50 > 0:56:54look like, how they will be negotiated and then hope they will
0:56:54 > 0:57:01be put...Just to save time, instead of you repeating it, I will repeat
0:57:01 > 0:57:08on your behalf, you do not think it will come to this. I am struck by
0:57:08 > 0:57:12using that our legislative consent motion not being passed, somehow
0:57:12 > 0:57:18Brexit cannot happen.What do you mean by that? If this... Brexit
0:57:18 > 0:57:23cannot happen until this legislation is passed or an equivalent of this
0:57:23 > 0:57:29legislation being passed. This is not an accident, this legislation is
0:57:29 > 0:57:37needed to deliver a legally secure Brexit. That is the bill. Why? It
0:57:37 > 0:57:41does not have to happen as a matter of law. It is a constitutional
0:57:41 > 0:57:45principle that the UK Government will not legislate on matters that
0:57:45 > 0:57:49fall within the scope of the devolved confidence of the Scottish
0:57:49 > 0:57:54Government without the Scottish Government's consent. That is an
0:57:54 > 0:57:58important principle. It has always been adhered to and we would expect
0:57:58 > 0:58:02it would be adhered to in the future.If that legislative consent
0:58:02 > 0:58:08motion is not passed and this bill comes back to the House of Commons,
0:58:08 > 0:58:16with the Scottish Conservative MPs support...?We are building
0:58:16 > 0:58:19hypothetical upon hypothetical. It is not my job to tell Scottish MPs
0:58:19 > 0:58:25how to vote.Anything that happens in the future is by any sense
0:58:25 > 0:58:29hypothetical stop I do not think any of these things will happen.There
0:58:29 > 0:58:34is a vision of the future were none of these things occur. We are
0:58:34 > 0:58:38nowhere near any of these things occurring at the moment. Let's focus
0:58:38 > 0:58:43on what we can manage. We can manage an agreement between the two
0:58:43 > 0:58:46governments about how this legislation needs to be amended in
0:58:46 > 0:58:53order to ensure that MSPs like me can give our consent to it in due
0:58:53 > 0:59:00course.Do you accept mate Russell saying, he did not say, that he is
0:59:00 > 0:59:05in fact negotiating in good faith? -- Mike Russell. You do not think
0:59:05 > 0:59:08the Scottish Government will come and say we will add other things
0:59:08 > 0:59:14before we agree?I was elected to the Scottish Government 1.5 years
0:59:14 > 0:59:21ago. It is my job to be suspicious of the SNP and be a winner of the
0:59:21 > 0:59:27tricks they are up to.
0:59:27 > 0:59:28tricks they are up to. They are good cordial working relationships and
0:59:28 > 0:59:32there is no reason to suspect anyone is working in bad faith towards
0:59:32 > 0:59:37this.Adam Tomkins, thank you very much indeed.
0:59:37 > 0:59:40Politics has been coming over all green this week.
0:59:40 > 0:59:42Just as the Prime Minister revealed the UK Government's new 25-year
0:59:42 > 0:59:45environmental strategy, the Scottish Government pulled a ban
0:59:45 > 0:59:48on plastic cotton buds out of its eco-friendly bag.
0:59:48 > 0:59:51And there's more to come, with talk of a "latte levy"
0:59:51 > 0:59:52and a money-back scheme for plastic bottles.
0:59:52 > 0:59:55Even Donald Trump was trying to convince us this week that
0:59:55 > 0:59:58he's the new Swampy.
0:59:58 > 1:00:01But how much of this is simply the greenwashing of politics,
1:00:01 > 1:00:03to borrow a trendy phrase?
1:00:03 > 1:00:05Policies which may be laudable in themselves,
1:00:05 > 1:00:07but do nothing to tackle an economic system based on
1:00:07 > 1:00:09over-consumption and waste.
1:00:09 > 1:00:16Graham Stewart's been finding out.
1:00:16 > 1:00:21Today, in the Atlantic waters of Europe, as elsewhere, they have to
1:00:21 > 1:00:25share the ocean with plastic. The devastating effects of plastic
1:00:25 > 1:00:33waste. Brought home to millions of viewers. From the Atlantic Ocean to
1:00:33 > 1:00:36Gullane sands and East Lothian, hundreds of plastic sticks from
1:00:36 > 1:00:42cotton buds washed up on the beach. They are not the most common plastic
1:00:42 > 1:00:45waste but they can kill marine animals and the birds that swallow
1:00:45 > 1:00:53them.Oh my goodness, you have found a lot of them.With biodegradable
1:00:53 > 1:00:56alternatives already available, it is an easy fix for ministers.There
1:00:56 > 1:01:01are other items that we may want to look at. This was a relatively
1:01:01 > 1:01:05straightforward one that we could do pretty quickly and we see no reason
1:01:05 > 1:01:09to delay it. The thing is every single item needs to be looked at on
1:01:09 > 1:01:15its individual merits because in some cases it would be a much more
1:01:15 > 1:01:18difficult thing to achieve. In some cases it might be that we would not
1:01:18 > 1:01:24have the powers to do it.Another measure being considered as a levy
1:01:24 > 1:01:30on disposable coffee cups. At this cafe in Edinburgh, the use coffee
1:01:30 > 1:01:34cups which biodegrade along food waste in less than six months.The
1:01:34 > 1:01:40more that we are becoming interested in the environmental impact that
1:01:40 > 1:01:45everything has, how sustainable we want to be, people turning vegan,
1:01:45 > 1:01:49people using local businesses, everyone is becoming interested in
1:01:49 > 1:01:55what their impact is, especially on takeaway food.It is a massive
1:01:55 > 1:02:00market. Realising that green policies could be vote winners, the
1:02:00 > 1:02:05First Minister -- Prime Minister launched a 25 year environmental
1:02:05 > 1:02:08policy.It is clean and plentiful water, plants and animals that are
1:02:08 > 1:02:15thriving and dig green and cleaner country for resolve.President was
1:02:15 > 1:02:18impersonating a tree hugger this week. After withdrawing America from
1:02:18 > 1:02:25the Paris climate agreement last year.I had a problem with the
1:02:25 > 1:02:30agreement that the side, as usual they had made a bad deal. We could
1:02:30 > 1:02:35go back in. We are strong on the environment, I feel strongly about
1:02:35 > 1:02:39the environment.Politicians can only do so much. Environmentalism
1:02:39 > 1:02:44starts in the home. Nearly half of the rubbish generated and Scottish
1:02:44 > 1:02:48homes is being recycled. But as recycling alone the solution? About
1:02:48 > 1:02:54half of all the plastic we recycle ends up here, in China. The world
1:02:54 > 1:02:59was my biggest market for household waste. But no more. From the 1st of
1:02:59 > 1:03:02January China has banned the importation of all plastic waste
1:03:02 > 1:03:06from around the world.China quite understandably does not want to keep
1:03:06 > 1:03:11on taking on more and more volume of the West's with plastic and plastic
1:03:11 > 1:03:15pollution. I think we have a responsibility to solve this problem
1:03:15 > 1:03:20at source because just as China does not want to deal with this problem
1:03:20 > 1:03:25for ever, so our own communities are not going to accept building more
1:03:25 > 1:03:28incinerators as the other short-term unsustainable way of getting rid of
1:03:28 > 1:03:34this problem.As far as my remit was concerned, recycling should be the
1:03:34 > 1:03:37last resort. It builds up energy, generates pollution and ultimately
1:03:37 > 1:03:41is not good for the economy.For everyone job we see in the
1:03:41 > 1:03:44collection of materials for recycling, we believe there is
1:03:44 > 1:03:49another eight jobs in repurposing of those materials back into the
1:03:49 > 1:03:54economy. That is in a way what this is all about. We want to design at
1:03:54 > 1:03:59an economy here in Scotland and realise as many jobs as possible. It
1:03:59 > 1:04:02is good for the environment but we need to start looking at the
1:04:02 > 1:04:09economic possibilities.This company take low value residues from whiskey
1:04:09 > 1:04:15production and turn them into high-value biofuels, which can be
1:04:15 > 1:04:18put into cars. Although the company has benefited from government grants
1:04:18 > 1:04:25it is based on a sound business proposition.Celtic renewables has a
1:04:25 > 1:04:28fundamental recycling ethos behind it in creating value. But that is
1:04:28 > 1:04:38the key value -- word, valuable -- value. There is no charity in this.
1:04:38 > 1:04:44It is about doing something, it is the right thing to do but it must be
1:04:44 > 1:04:46economically and environmentally sustainable.But there is more we
1:04:46 > 1:04:51can do to reduce waste. Take the scourge of plastic bottles, nearly
1:04:51 > 1:04:5640 million are used in the UK every day, with only half making it to
1:04:56 > 1:05:01recycling. Tackling that will require a cultural shift.In Paris
1:05:01 > 1:05:07they provide water fountains note or the give you carbonated water to
1:05:07 > 1:05:11drink and go. So we can be innovative around not just the
1:05:11 > 1:05:14technologies and finding new types of plastics that biodegrade, that
1:05:14 > 1:05:20can perform better as packaging, but we also need to be thinking about
1:05:20 > 1:05:23reducing the amount of plastic. Tesco this week became the first
1:05:23 > 1:05:27major supermarket to throw its weight behind the idea of a deposit
1:05:27 > 1:05:31and return scheme for plastic bottles. But for those of us who
1:05:31 > 1:05:35remember cashing in ginger bottles for a sweetie money back in the day,
1:05:35 > 1:05:39a lot of this trendy green thinking seem strangely familiar.
1:05:40 > 1:05:42That was Graham Stewart reporting.
1:05:42 > 1:05:44Now it's time to take a look back at events
1:05:44 > 1:05:50and forward to the week ahead.
1:05:50 > 1:05:53With me this week are Lynsey Bews from the Press Association
1:05:53 > 1:05:54and the columnist Kevin McKenna.
1:05:54 > 1:05:59Welcome both.
1:05:59 > 1:06:08Brexit, I think we have learned something this morning. We have...
1:06:08 > 1:06:11The Scottish Government wants the clause 11, the nature of devolution
1:06:11 > 1:06:17clause amended, the British Government has accepted that it was
1:06:17 > 1:06:22a mistake and it will amended, and we have learned that the Scottish
1:06:22 > 1:06:27Government, the SNP, make the whole question of the single market and
1:06:27 > 1:06:31customs union completely separate from whether they will pass a
1:06:31 > 1:06:35legislative consent in the Scottish garment. As long as clause 11 as
1:06:35 > 1:06:40amended, even if we leave the single market and customs union, they will
1:06:40 > 1:06:43get the Scottish moment to pass it. That seemed to be what Mike Russell
1:06:43 > 1:06:49were saying and he was saying that the UK Government had conceded the
1:06:49 > 1:06:53point the Scottish Government had made an clause 11 and it had not
1:06:53 > 1:06:57produced that amendment yet. If it is as straightforward as that, it
1:06:57 > 1:07:04makes us wonder why it has taken so long. So we are all wondering where
1:07:04 > 1:07:11is this amendment? This clause is a one sentence, about
1:07:11 > 1:07:14four lines. And Scottish Tories are trying to
1:07:14 > 1:07:17blame it on the complexities involved and think the officials
1:07:17 > 1:07:26should be more aware. Adams, -- Adam Tomkins...
1:07:26 > 1:07:29I think David Mundell has to take some responsibility for not keeping
1:07:29 > 1:07:37to the promise. If this is all the case, it seems a
1:07:37 > 1:07:40terribly small problem to resolve for which there has been an endless
1:07:40 > 1:07:45amount of force. And it begs the question as what
1:07:45 > 1:07:52David Mundell is for. This is not that he had to deliver. Anybody in
1:07:52 > 1:07:58the street watching that sees the SNP, the Government saying the UK
1:07:58 > 1:08:02Government agrees with us an clause 11, however, we are not confident
1:08:02 > 1:08:09that they weren't muddy the waters further. And then you have Adam
1:08:09 > 1:08:13Tomkins saying, our position is exactly the same as the SNP, but I
1:08:13 > 1:08:18don't think there will be any problem whatsoever. As you pointed
1:08:18 > 1:08:22out, it is a tiny clause in the scheme of things and fairly simple
1:08:22 > 1:08:27to grasp, which has not often been the case with anything else with
1:08:27 > 1:08:35Brexit, so people say get it sorted, this is what pay you to do.
1:08:35 > 1:08:39The politics maybe not so straightforward because one view
1:08:39 > 1:08:42would be as soon as the Scottish Government agrees to pass a
1:08:42 > 1:08:48legislative consent motion on this, even though it is on the narrow
1:08:48 > 1:08:52issue of the clause, that is their leveraged gone on anything else like
1:08:52 > 1:08:58the single market customs union. That is their leverage gone, the one
1:08:58 > 1:09:01thing they can threaten the UK Government with.
1:09:01 > 1:09:08There is a debate around whether that has the ability to throw a
1:09:08 > 1:09:12massive spanner into the works and derail Brexit, and many people have
1:09:12 > 1:09:17said that would not be the case. Adam Tomkins themed to think it
1:09:17 > 1:09:22might. He was talking about the political
1:09:22 > 1:09:26side of it not being passed and the Withdrawal Bill not being passed.
1:09:26 > 1:09:31The option would be for the bill to be passed without the LCM and Brexit
1:09:31 > 1:09:37to go ahead anyway. That is where the leveraged comes from. It is
1:09:37 > 1:09:42difficult to play that leverage if you say we are here to negotiate in
1:09:42 > 1:09:45good faith and if you deliver, we will pass the LCM.
1:09:45 > 1:09:52I think Adam has delivered the splash for tomorrow's front pages,
1:09:52 > 1:09:59with the difficulties he sees if there is no legislative consent
1:09:59 > 1:10:07forthcoming.The most of us thought we will find a way, or the
1:10:07 > 1:10:11Government would not allow that to derail whatever agreement we have,
1:10:11 > 1:10:16but here we have a senior member of the Conservative opposition in
1:10:16 > 1:10:20Scotland, one of its smartest operators, saying...
1:10:20 > 1:10:24His years will be burning. There will be a major problem, by
1:10:24 > 1:10:28the way. I thought there is the most significant part of the interview
1:10:28 > 1:10:33and I think it will dominate a lot of exchanges in Holyrood in the next
1:10:33 > 1:10:41week or so. Second referendum? The SNP perhaps
1:10:41 > 1:10:44for understandable reasons, they want to keep saying it might happen,
1:10:44 > 1:10:48but they do not want to commit themselves to campaigning forehead.
1:10:48 > 1:10:53I think the idea of a second referendum, I think it is seen by
1:10:53 > 1:10:58many people as distraction from the other issues surrounding what kind
1:10:58 > 1:11:03of deal the UK Government is going to achieve and I think a second
1:11:03 > 1:11:07referendum still looks very unlikely, though slightly less
1:11:07 > 1:11:14unlikely since the general election last year. It still does not have a
1:11:14 > 1:11:18huge amount of momentum behind it. What do you think of that?
1:11:18 > 1:11:22Are we talking about an independence referendum?
1:11:22 > 1:11:30Know, a second EU referendum. Nicola Sturgeon was talking of another EU
1:11:30 > 1:11:32referendum. The SNP can not have their cake and
1:11:32 > 1:11:46eat it. How can you say it could become it was -- irresistible, but
1:11:46 > 1:11:51I'm not going to campaign for it? Come on, we are not stupid, that is
1:11:51 > 1:12:00the opening salvo of a campaign. Problems in the NHS. You want to
1:12:00 > 1:12:07insult GPs the length and breadth of Scotland?
1:12:07 > 1:12:12Scotland? I have much admiration. I would like
1:12:12 > 1:12:17them to be fully part of the NHS, currently they get pensions from the
1:12:17 > 1:12:23NHS, they get IT support, but they are allowed to roam their surgeries
1:12:23 > 1:12:26as arrive at enterprises, and ordinary people are asking these
1:12:26 > 1:12:31questions, when you have so much pressure on the NHS in the winter,
1:12:31 > 1:12:36you have GPs surgeries should far days at Christmas, that would not be
1:12:36 > 1:12:41happening if they had NHS contracts. I am only writing what I am
1:12:41 > 1:12:47listening to and hearing. Should we be talking more about it?
1:12:47 > 1:12:55It sounds like David Cameron, but it was him who kept going on about
1:12:55 > 1:13:0424-hour NHS. It is odd we have surgeries shook down at the time
1:13:04 > 1:13:06when people most need them. That is putting the extra pressure
1:13:06 > 1:13:12on the front door of the hospital, the A&E units, and we have seen
1:13:12 > 1:13:16health boards ask GP surgeries to open on Saturdays to try and ease
1:13:16 > 1:13:20the pressure that seems to be one tactic. That is about getting GPs to
1:13:20 > 1:13:25sign up to that. I would like to see the Health Secretary train take the
1:13:25 > 1:13:34BMA over with Kevin's IDE. -- idea. The idea was they were independent.
1:13:34 > 1:13:41He said he was going to have to stuff the consultants' mouths with
1:13:41 > 1:13:46money. We're out of time. Thank very much
1:13:46 > 1:13:46indeed.
1:13:46 > 1:13:47That's all from the us this week.
1:13:47 > 1:13:50I'll be back at the same time next week.
1:13:50 > 1:13:53Until then, goodbye.