0:00:36 > 0:00:38Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:38 > 0:00:39I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42And this is your essential briefing to everything that's happening this
0:00:42 > 0:00:45morning in the world of politics.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Big fines for bosses who take bonuses from firms with black holes
0:00:48 > 0:00:52in their pension funds - will the Prime Minister's promise
0:00:52 > 0:00:54help the Government get back on the front foot
0:00:54 > 0:00:57after the collapse of Carillion?
0:00:59 > 0:01:06reform if they obstruct the passage of the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Arch-remainer Lord Adonis says that's their job.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10We'll bring the MP and the peer together.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Henry Bolton fights to save his job after a week of damaging headlines
0:01:13 > 0:01:15about his relationship with a 25-year-old model.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17We'll be talk to the Ukip leader live.
0:01:17 > 0:01:23Will it be his last interview as party leader?
0:01:23 > 0:01:25And on Sunday Politics Scotland, Scottish Labour leader
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Richard Leonard joins me live in the studio to discuss his
0:01:28 > 0:01:36plans to turn around the fortunes of his party.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:42 > 0:01:47And with me today, our regular gaggle of experts providing
0:01:47 > 0:01:50the inside track on all the big stories - Tom Newton Dunn,
0:01:50 > 0:01:51Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
0:01:51 > 0:01:55First this morning, Theresa May is proposing what she's
0:01:55 > 0:01:58calling tough new rules to penalise company executives
0:01:58 > 0:02:00who try to line their own pockets by putting their workers'
0:02:00 > 0:02:01pensions at risk.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03"An unacceptable abuse," she says, "that will end."
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Her comments come as the Government attempts to seize the initiative
0:02:06 > 0:02:08after the collapse of the giant construction, services
0:02:08 > 0:02:10and out-sourcing company, Carillion, which went into liquidation
0:02:10 > 0:02:15on Monday with debts of around £1.5 billion.
0:02:15 > 0:02:16One of Britain's biggest construction firms, Carillion,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19has been put into liquidation.
0:02:19 > 0:02:2420,000 workers face an uncertain future.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Carillion employed people providing essential services in our schools,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31hospitals, railways and prisons.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33They had to be told they would be paid when they turned
0:02:33 > 0:02:35up to work on Monday.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Let me be clear that all employees should continue to turn up to work
0:02:38 > 0:02:41confident in the knowledge that they will be paid
0:02:41 > 0:02:46for the public services that they are providing.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49The firm had around 450 contracts with government,
0:02:49 > 0:02:53on top of private work and overseas projects.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Some of those had been handed to the company after it issued
0:02:56 > 0:02:57profit warnings last year.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Prime Minister, why were contracts awarded to Carillion
0:02:59 > 0:03:01despite the warnings?
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Labour and the unions wanted answers.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Why did the Government not heed the warnings?
0:03:07 > 0:03:12Why did they continue to give billions of pounds of contracts
0:03:12 > 0:03:14to a company that the City were backing against in 2013?
0:03:14 > 0:03:20That's the real question.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26And it's emerged the firm's former chief executive, Richard Howson,
0:03:26 > 0:03:28who left the firm last year, received £1.5 million in pay
0:03:28 > 0:03:31and bonuses in 2016, while many ordinary employees face
0:03:31 > 0:03:33the prospect of being laid-off and a huge black hole
0:03:33 > 0:03:35in the company's pension scheme could result in their
0:03:35 > 0:03:39pensions being slashed.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Subcontractors who hadn't been paid for weeks were warned they might get
0:03:43 > 0:03:46just 1p for every pound they are owed.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Some warned that they too might go to the wall.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55We are not really a business of a size that can trade
0:03:55 > 0:03:58through that without some form of support from the Government.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00If it's not forthcoming, I think ourselves and lots of businesses
0:04:00 > 0:04:02like us will probably go out of business.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04In the wake of the collapse...
0:04:04 > 0:04:07For Labour though, this was not just about the failure of one company.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10By Monday night, Jeremy Corbyn had taken to social media.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14At Prime Minister's Questions, he pressed the point home.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16This is not one isolated case of government negligence
0:04:16 > 0:04:17and corporate failure.
0:04:17 > 0:04:22It is a broken system.
0:04:22 > 0:04:27Virgin and Stagecoach's management of East Coast Trains,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Capita and Atos' handling of disability assessments,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33and security firm G4S's failure to provide security at the Olympics
0:04:33 > 0:04:35were all examples, according to Jeremy Corbyn, of the private
0:04:35 > 0:04:38sector failing the public sector.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43These corporations, Mr Speaker, need to be shown the door.
0:04:43 > 0:04:48We need our public services provided by public employees
0:04:50 > 0:04:55with a public service ethos and a strong public oversight.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58As the ruins of Carillion lie around her, will the Prime Minister
0:04:58 > 0:05:01act to end this costly racket?
0:05:01 > 0:05:07Theresa May pointed out it was the Blair and Brown
0:05:07 > 0:05:11partnership deals and she suspected there was something else behind
0:05:11 > 0:05:13the current Labour leadership's hostility to the private sector.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17But what Labour oppose isn't just a role for private companies
0:05:17 > 0:05:21in public services but the private sector as a whole.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24This is a Labour Party that has turned its back on investment,
0:05:24 > 0:05:28on growth, on jobs.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33A Labour Party that will always put politics before people.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35So, under a Labour government, how far would their
0:05:35 > 0:05:39nationalisation plans go?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Would every binman, builder and even bankers have to be
0:05:42 > 0:05:47employed by the state?
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Carillion's collapses the big story of the week and it will continue to
0:05:52 > 0:05:56have political consequences I will talk through now at the panel. Tom
0:05:56 > 0:05:59Newton Dunn, presumably the caps of Carillion has prompted this promise
0:05:59 > 0:06:05from Theresa May that she will punish bosses who continue to take
0:06:05 > 0:06:09bonuses when they have black holes in the pension fund, is this
0:06:09 > 0:06:12something new?This is our expectation, the Prime Minister has
0:06:12 > 0:06:16acted dramatically as a response to the collapse of Carillion last week.
0:06:16 > 0:06:22The problem as I recall a party conference speech she gave in
0:06:22 > 0:06:25October, 2016, the citizens of nowhere, calling out a rotten
0:06:25 > 0:06:31corrupt apples across the country then, Philip Green who presided over
0:06:31 > 0:06:36the collapse of BHS, leaving a massive pensions black hole, an
0:06:36 > 0:06:40entire year and a bit has passed and no apparent government action. I
0:06:40 > 0:06:49fear Theresa May with the bold words in the new look Observer this
0:06:49 > 0:06:52morning, action today, still action tomorrow.It is what people want to
0:06:52 > 0:06:58hear?Certainly people do want to hear it, although they are amazed it
0:06:58 > 0:07:02has not happened before. Jeremy Corbyn is playing this beautifully.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07There is a much more worrying bigger picture here for the Conservatives.
0:07:07 > 0:07:13The opportunity they have created for Jeremy Corbyn to underline his
0:07:13 > 0:07:18case that unfettered free markets do not work and somehow or other
0:07:18 > 0:07:22Carillion symbolises everything that is wrong about the system, as we
0:07:22 > 0:07:27heard him say in the clip. I do not think most voters are particularly
0:07:27 > 0:07:31ideological, they just want things to work. But if the Government is
0:07:31 > 0:07:35seen to be incompetent on this scale, it creates a vacuum for the
0:07:35 > 0:07:42leader of the Labour Party to put an ideological spin on it and he is
0:07:42 > 0:07:45doing it very effectively.The Prime Minister is right when she says more
0:07:45 > 0:07:48of these PFI contracts were signed under Blair and Brown than under
0:07:48 > 0:07:54subsequent Tory governments, but now you have a Jeremy Corbyn Labour
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Party in opposition, they do not have to shoulder the blame for that?
0:07:58 > 0:08:01Jeremy Corbyn oppose them at the time. The late 1970s in reverse,
0:08:01 > 0:08:07that is what we are seeing. Bowman the minority Labour government being
0:08:07 > 0:08:12torn apart. Now we have a minority Conservative government being
0:08:12 > 0:08:15challenged by tidal waves which put challenged by tidal waves which put
0:08:15 > 0:08:18them on the defensive all the time. We have not time to go through other
0:08:18 > 0:08:23examples, but just on this one, Theresa May is quite well equipped,
0:08:23 > 0:08:29as Tom said, from the beginning, she taught the language of intervention
0:08:29 > 0:08:32and corporate governments, coming after the bad people in the private
0:08:32 > 0:08:36sector, but because of the lack of action to follow it up and because
0:08:36 > 0:08:40Jeremy Corbyn genuinely believes in these things, it is much easier for
0:08:40 > 0:08:44him to swim with these tidal waves than her lead in this deeply
0:08:44 > 0:08:49pressurised minority government.We have been talking to all three of
0:08:49 > 0:08:53you through the programme, let us pick up on Carillion with the Shadow
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Attorney General, Labour's Shami Chakrabarti. Labour have been very
0:08:57 > 0:09:01critical of the Government's response to the collapse of
0:09:01 > 0:09:04Carillion, what would Labour have done differently this week if you
0:09:04 > 0:09:09had been in government?I think what we would do and what we will do, as
0:09:09 > 0:09:16soon as we are in government, is look in a far more fundamental way
0:09:16 > 0:09:20at PFI, outsourcing, and by the way...We will get on the principles
0:09:20 > 0:09:26of this, but if you had won the election in 2017, it would have been
0:09:26 > 0:09:29a Labour government handling the collapse, what would have been
0:09:29 > 0:09:32different in your response?We would not have left it so late, we would
0:09:32 > 0:09:38not have bailed out a company that already had raised serious warning
0:09:38 > 0:09:42signals in the City, we would not have allowed them to get into
0:09:42 > 0:09:50subcontracting with, for example, Cerco, worth millions of pounds,
0:09:50 > 0:09:55profit warnings against that company too.Cerco are a big government
0:09:55 > 0:09:58provider, should they be looking at all of their contracts with the
0:09:58 > 0:10:03likes of Cerco who have also issued profit warnings?You do have to look
0:10:03 > 0:10:07at all of the arrangements and the subcontracting arrangements. It is
0:10:07 > 0:10:10not because I am ideological leap opposed to the private sector, it
0:10:10 > 0:10:20will be smaller private sector companies suffering from nonpayment.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24Should the Government help? The man running the small business in the
0:10:24 > 0:10:27film saying they might go to the wall.Quite possibly. But with
0:10:27 > 0:10:32accountability. It is all very well for Mrs May to say she will sting
0:10:32 > 0:10:37the big executives, there has to be ministerial responsibility as well.
0:10:37 > 0:10:42One of my concerns is that when vital public services of a kind
0:10:42 > 0:10:47almost constitutional, for example, prisons, get contracted out, what
0:10:47 > 0:10:49you are actually devolving as ministerial responsibility,
0:10:49 > 0:10:56something goes terribly wrong, in a vital utility, a matter of security,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59infrastructure, and ministers, of whatever colour, put up their hands
0:10:59 > 0:11:04and say, it is wicked executives. What we need is ministerial
0:11:04 > 0:11:10responsibility, oversight, of course we want a thriving private sector,
0:11:10 > 0:11:14but some vital services need to be run by public servants and with
0:11:14 > 0:11:19ministers held to account.Sometimes when you hear Labour Shadow
0:11:19 > 0:11:23ministers talking, it sounds as though they want to take absolutely
0:11:23 > 0:11:27everything back into public ownership.That is not the case. I
0:11:27 > 0:11:31believe in a mixed economy and I know my colleagues do too but there
0:11:31 > 0:11:36are times when some things need to be in public hands. That will
0:11:36 > 0:11:40include on constitutional grounds talking about people's human rights,
0:11:40 > 0:11:45basic security, and it will also mean sometimes when you have a big
0:11:45 > 0:11:49organisation and outsourcing is used to grind down the working conditions
0:11:49 > 0:11:54of some workers and break down the sense of community solidarity.Where
0:11:54 > 0:11:57is it appropriate for private contracts?For example, there are
0:11:57 > 0:12:03some things that the private sector probably does better. When you're
0:12:03 > 0:12:07running a police force, you are unlikely to say, we will make the
0:12:07 > 0:12:10motorbikes for the police officers better than BMW. Maybe you will but
0:12:10 > 0:12:15I doubt it will happen any time soon.You need to look at this. What
0:12:15 > 0:12:20about cleaning in offices and police stations? Should that be run by the
0:12:20 > 0:12:24police or outsourced?Maybe
0:12:24 > 0:12:26stations? Should that be run by the hospitals are better example because
0:12:26 > 0:12:30cleanliness in a hospital is quite often a matter of life and death.
0:12:30 > 0:12:36Sometimes it is better even for something that seems not a core
0:12:36 > 0:12:39service like claiming to be in public hands. You need to look at
0:12:39 > 0:12:45this on a case-by-case basis.You do not have many examples of where it
0:12:45 > 0:12:49is appropriate for private companies to be involved. Prisons and
0:12:49 > 0:12:54probation, what about catering in prisons, does that have to be in
0:12:54 > 0:12:58public hands?What you want to do is look at the quality of the service,
0:12:58 > 0:13:03the quality of the conditions, for the people working there, and to see
0:13:03 > 0:13:09what would be best value for the public and for the public purse. It
0:13:09 > 0:13:13is not ideological, but in some cases, principles are at stake.We
0:13:13 > 0:13:18are left with the problem here of workers worried about pensions,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20working for Carillion and subcontractors who might not get
0:13:20 > 0:13:25paid. If the Government work to talk about putting taxpayers' money into
0:13:25 > 0:13:29helping out those people or those companies, would the Labour Party
0:13:29 > 0:13:34object?We would want to look at the conditions of spending public money?
0:13:34 > 0:13:38In principle? It is not the fault of the subcontracting small companies
0:13:38 > 0:13:43they will not get paid.Indeed, but if you decide to spend public money,
0:13:43 > 0:13:47for example, to help the smaller businesses, you want accountability
0:13:47 > 0:13:53in response. You
0:13:53 > 0:13:55in response. You might well want to legislate to give priority to
0:13:55 > 0:13:57pension funds, for example, over shareholders who have not done their
0:13:57 > 0:13:59job of corporate governance in these cases.Moving on to talk about
0:13:59 > 0:14:05something else, if you don't mind, the serial six attacker, this time
0:14:05 > 0:14:07last week we were sitting here talking about the fact the Justice
0:14:07 > 0:14:12Minister said he would launch a judicial review and now he will not
0:14:12 > 0:14:18because it has little chance of succeeding. Should the Government be
0:14:18 > 0:14:21pursuing a judicial review?My view at the time, I held my tongue about
0:14:21 > 0:14:25it because I am used to politicians wading in in a knee jerk way when
0:14:25 > 0:14:29there is a case of this kind, my view is that if there is to be a
0:14:29 > 0:14:34judicial review of the parole board decision, the best person to bring
0:14:34 > 0:14:38such a review would be a victim because the chances are their best
0:14:38 > 0:14:41arguments would be under the Human Rights Act which gives rights to
0:14:41 > 0:14:48victims and not to politicians. Crowdfunding attempt to raise money
0:14:48 > 0:14:51to do that perhaps?If the Justice Secretary wants to make a name for
0:14:51 > 0:14:55himself with this as a new Justice Secretary, he might better give his
0:14:55 > 0:14:59attentions to making sure the people have decent levels of legal aid so
0:14:59 > 0:15:02they can vindicate their rights under the Human Rights Act. In
0:15:02 > 0:15:06relation to the case of John Worboys and the crisis of public confidence,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10that it is in danger of creating, we could do with an end review of the
0:15:10 > 0:15:17whole case, from the moment a young woman
0:15:19 > 0:15:21woman went to the police and was not believed to the moment this release
0:15:21 > 0:15:24decision was made arguably with the lack of transparency and involvement
0:15:24 > 0:15:26of victims.He was prosecuted for offences against 12 women and we
0:15:26 > 0:15:29know there were almost 100 other women who came forward. The CPS said
0:15:29 > 0:15:33there was not enough evidence and they cannot revisit that decision,
0:15:33 > 0:15:37if there was not enough evidence then, there will not be enough now.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40I am not second-guessing the particular CPS decision is because I
0:15:40 > 0:15:44am not in a position to do that but there are issues for the whole
0:15:44 > 0:15:48system from the moment that a woman went to the police and was not
0:15:48 > 0:15:55treated with the respect she
0:15:58 > 0:16:04treated with the respect she deserved, to victims.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Kier Starmer was director of prosecutions at the time and he said
0:16:09 > 0:16:14he didn't have any involvement in the decision-making behind it.Nor
0:16:14 > 0:16:23did his predecessor.But he should have done, shouldn't he? He has
0:16:23 > 0:16:28prosecuted for only 12 cases, the DPP should be involved in that.My
0:16:28 > 0:16:34argument is this whole
0:16:45 > 0:16:47story on this whole case and the numbers of women involved and
0:16:47 > 0:16:50frankly the anxiety this decision has caused to women who weren't even
0:16:50 > 0:16:53victims means there needs to be an end to end review of how the system
0:16:53 > 0:16:55has worked in this case, from the moment a woman went to the police
0:16:55 > 0:16:58and was arguably not believed in was made without the input of victims
0:16:58 > 0:17:01who I would expect to be given notice and the opportunity to make
0:17:01 > 0:17:03representations to the parole board. There's a story running in the
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Sunday Times this morning about Momentum and saying they are trying
0:17:05 > 0:17:11to deselect 50 Labour MPs. The fact of the matter is whether have been
0:17:11 > 0:17:18Parliamentary selections, momentum candidates have... Do you think
0:17:18 > 0:17:25actually the Parliamentary Labour Party should better
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Party should better reflect Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party?Momentum is
0:17:28 > 0:17:36not prioritising the selection of some candidates over others. They
0:17:36 > 0:17:39are part of the Labour movement that has always had various strands
0:17:39 > 0:17:44within it. What is exciting to me is not exciting to the Sunday Times,
0:17:44 > 0:17:49fair enough, but we have a Democratic party becoming more
0:17:49 > 0:17:57democratic. I...There is still a massive disconnect between those who
0:17:57 > 0:18:00sit in Parliament and those who have joined since Jeremy Corbyn became
0:18:00 > 0:18:12leader.I think these things become exaggerated. I have noticed people
0:18:12 > 0:18:15uniting around purposes, not least the scandal around Carillion. I
0:18:15 > 0:18:21don't really spot this red Menace in the way other people do. It's a
0:18:21 > 0:18:25democratic party, and most popular movement of about 600,000 people and
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I think that something to be optimistic about.Thank you for
0:18:30 > 0:18:36talking to this morning.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46Momentum haven't been that successful so far.I think it has
0:18:46 > 0:18:50been overblown on the basis of the evidence. You quoted the procedure
0:18:50 > 0:18:54is taking place so far, they haven't prevailed that often and in the
0:18:54 > 0:18:58Sunday Times this morning they resorted to the example of Haringey
0:18:58 > 0:19:04Council where there are a lot of specific local issues. At this point
0:19:04 > 0:19:07it is unclear whether the selection will become the overwhelming theme
0:19:07 > 0:19:12over the next few years in the Labour Party. It might do but the
0:19:12 > 0:19:16evidence so far is it is much more nuanced than some papers are
0:19:16 > 0:19:23suggesting.Three new Momentum members on the NEC this morning, is
0:19:23 > 0:19:29it going to make a difference do you think?A huge difference because
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Corbyn and his wing of the party can now do precisely what they want, as
0:19:32 > 0:19:37long as they have the union muscle behind them during conference votes,
0:19:37 > 0:19:42then the party and any which way he wants to run it is his. I disagree
0:19:42 > 0:19:47with Steve, the difference in language Jeremy Corbyn and his close
0:19:47 > 0:19:53associates were using after the NEC elections this week on mandatory
0:19:53 > 0:19:59reselection is, Shami wasn't asked if she believed in them, Rebecca
0:19:59 > 0:20:06Long-Bailey was, and they refused to rule them out and say they were a
0:20:06 > 0:20:14bad thing. In my view, it is without doubt that Corbyn will at some stage
0:20:14 > 0:20:19try to reshape the Parliamentary party more in his image and you may
0:20:19 > 0:20:26argue why should he not do that. Shami was saying the party is much
0:20:26 > 0:20:31more united around Jeremy Corbyn and when we see a story like Carillion
0:20:31 > 0:20:37it is easier for him to get the backing of the Parliamentary party.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42I think that's right. How unpleasant and ugly and divisive is it to have
0:20:42 > 0:20:47the story is out, whether or not they are completely accurate or
0:20:47 > 0:20:51whoever is briefing, I think it looks very bad on the atmosphere of
0:20:51 > 0:20:56the Parliamentary party. Where I do think Shami has a good point is on
0:20:56 > 0:21:01the size of the Labour membership. 600,000, the Conservatives can only
0:21:01 > 0:21:08dream of getting a fraction of
0:21:13 > 0:21:14dream of getting a fraction of this, so clearly there is a big problem
0:21:14 > 0:21:17for the Tory party there in matching what Labour is doing.We should ask,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21mandatory reselection for Labour MPs, are you in favour, Shami?Any
0:21:21 > 0:21:24democratic process should be across the board and for everyone. Where
0:21:24 > 0:21:29MPs are doing a good job, including working with their membership, and
0:21:29 > 0:21:33you have to work with your membership to get the vote out in
0:21:33 > 0:21:36the Labour Party, that relationship works well and I think that
0:21:36 > 0:21:41relationship will only work better into the future. I have been all
0:21:41 > 0:21:49over the country to all sorts of CLPs campaigning, and you would be
0:21:49 > 0:21:52surprised at the number of places where there is a very happy
0:21:52 > 0:21:57relationship between the MP and the party regardless of the particular
0:21:57 > 0:22:00strand they come from.Thank you for that.
0:22:00 > 0:22:01Now, the Government's flagship Brexit legislation -
0:22:01 > 0:22:04the EU Withdrawal Bill - hasn't always had the easiest
0:22:04 > 0:22:07of times in the House of Commons, but this week, MPs voted to send it
0:22:07 > 0:22:09through for consideration in the House of Lords.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12A number of peers having expressed concern about the so-called Henry
0:22:12 > 0:22:15VIII powers the bill grants to ministers to make changes to some
0:22:15 > 0:22:16laws without parliamentary scrutiny.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18And of course, a number of peers are dismayed
0:22:18 > 0:22:20about the process of Brexit itself.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23So, are we likely to see more dramatic attempts to change
0:22:23 > 0:22:25the Bill in a chamber full of unelected lawmakers?
0:22:25 > 0:22:29Ellie Price has been taking their temperature.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Stop Brexit!
0:22:37 > 0:22:40You'd think a bill that sought to enshrine EU law into British law
0:22:40 > 0:22:42after Brexit would be popular with the pro-Remain
0:22:42 > 0:22:43crowd in Parliament.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47But when the Withdrawal Bill cleared the Commons this week,
0:22:47 > 0:22:49one Tory Remain-supporting MP said he hoped the House of Lords would
0:22:49 > 0:22:53make an enormous amount of changes.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Good lord, what are they up to?!
0:22:57 > 0:23:00I think what will happen is that the Government will suffer
0:23:00 > 0:23:03a series of defeats, which will reduce the power
0:23:03 > 0:23:07of ministers to do things without proper scrutiny,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11and put in place a sensible series of votes - both in Parliament
0:23:11 > 0:23:14and the people at the end of the process - so that when we do
0:23:14 > 0:23:17get an end point to Brexit, people can say that it's
0:23:17 > 0:23:22been done properly.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24So a second referendum is on the table?
0:23:24 > 0:23:25It's definitely on the table.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28You would expect a Lib Dem to say that, but some Tory
0:23:28 > 0:23:32peers want changes too.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35If it comes to the situation where it looks as if what people
0:23:35 > 0:23:38voted for cannot be delivered, then we have to decide how
0:23:38 > 0:23:42best to move forward.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46I don't believe the House of Lords is trying to block Brexit at all.
0:23:46 > 0:23:51I think what the House of Lords is doing is its constitutional duty.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54So anyone hoping the House of Lords will deliver a fatal blow to Brexit
0:23:54 > 0:23:58will be disappointed, but so too will anyone hoping
0:23:58 > 0:24:01that the Withdrawal Bill will come out of there unchanged.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05So what is all the fuss about?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08The extent of the Government taking powers to itself while giving
0:24:08 > 0:24:10powers to Parliament, Henry VIII powers, this issue,
0:24:10 > 0:24:12of course, about the kind of protections we've had under EU
0:24:12 > 0:24:15law that we've contributed to for consumer protection,
0:24:15 > 0:24:19workplace protection, environmental issues,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23they are coming into UK law and that's what this bill does
0:24:23 > 0:24:26but it needs to make sure they're protected in UK law; they can't just
0:24:26 > 0:24:27be overturned the next day.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30There has to be a mandatory process to do that.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33But this was the reaction when some elected MPs over in the Commons
0:24:33 > 0:24:35voted against aspects of the Withdrawal Bill,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38causing a government defeat.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41One of their own colleagues even talked of treachery.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Another MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week said the laws would face
0:24:45 > 0:24:49reform if it tried to frustrate the democratic will of the people.
0:24:49 > 0:24:54So is the chamber full of unelected Remainers playing with fire?
0:24:57 > 0:24:59Since I've been leader in the House of Lords,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02for just over two years, what I've found is every time
0:25:02 > 0:25:04someone doesn't agree with something we're doing,
0:25:04 > 0:25:05they will get quite hysterical about "take
0:25:05 > 0:25:09away their powers," it's almost an off-with-their-heads moment.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11But you know, there is quite prescribed powers we do,
0:25:11 > 0:25:15we take them seriously and responsibly, and,
0:25:15 > 0:25:19we will send them back to the House of Commons.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21And even one of the lesser-spotted Brexit-supporting
0:25:21 > 0:25:22Lords isn't worried.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25There are a number of lords are in cahoots with Messrs Tusk
0:25:25 > 0:25:28and Juncker in trying to persuade the British people that they made
0:25:28 > 0:25:31a grave mistake when they voted to leave Brexit, and I have no doubt
0:25:31 > 0:25:34they will have a bit of fun doing that.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36But on the big issues, like whether we should
0:25:36 > 0:25:38have a second referendum, the Lords voted by a majority
0:25:38 > 0:25:42of more than 200 against that last year; or if you look at the Commons
0:25:42 > 0:25:45vote where the majority was over 200 against remaining in the single
0:25:45 > 0:25:47market and the customs union, I think the Lords will look
0:25:47 > 0:25:50to the elected House and do what they're good at,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52which is to consider the detail.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55Of course, one of the biggest differences between the Lords
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and Commons is the presence of nearly 200 crossbenchers -
0:25:58 > 0:26:01members who aren't in a party and don't take the whip,
0:26:01 > 0:26:03and they include some of the most distinguished legal
0:26:03 > 0:26:04minds in the country.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06And debate over the bill's constitutional implications may well
0:26:06 > 0:26:10lead to more than one showdown with the Commons.
0:26:10 > 0:26:15It's worth remembering that the Corporate Manslaughter
0:26:15 > 0:26:17and Corporate Homicide Bill went back and forth between the two
0:26:17 > 0:26:21Houses seven times only a few years ago, and that was just an aspect
0:26:21 > 0:26:24of the criminal justice system, it wasn't about the biggest decision
0:26:24 > 0:26:29this country is taking since 1945.
0:26:29 > 0:26:34So I think people need to be a little bit relaxed about that.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41Like the MPs on the Green benches of the Commons,
0:26:41 > 0:26:46the Lords on their red benches agreed to trigger Article 50.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48But the Lords, like the Commons, is split on what Brexit
0:26:48 > 0:26:51should actually look like.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55There may be some toing and froing, or ping-pong as it's known around
0:26:55 > 0:26:59here, but pretty much everyone agrees the Lords can't
0:26:59 > 0:27:01and won't block the bill, and it will go through,
0:27:01 > 0:27:05probably, by the end of May.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09Ellie Price reporting.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12by the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15This week he was elected chair of the influential
0:27:15 > 0:27:17European Research Group, made up of Brexit-backing
0:27:17 > 0:27:18Conservative backbenchers.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23And in the studio, we're joined by Andrew Adonis.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28He's a Labour peer who resigned from his role as a Government
0:27:28 > 0:27:32adviser last month over its Brexit strategy.
0:27:32 > 0:27:37Lord Adonis, you have made your opposition to Brexit clear, recently
0:27:37 > 0:27:41describing it as a national list spasm that can be stopped. Do you
0:27:41 > 0:27:47think the EU Withdrawal Bill is the opportunity to stop Brexit?I agree
0:27:47 > 0:27:53this is the biggest decision the country will take since 1945. I do
0:27:53 > 0:27:57not think the Lords can stop it, this is an issue for the people. It
0:27:57 > 0:28:01started with the people in a referendum and my view is the final
0:28:01 > 0:28:05sites should go to the people. The critical issue over the coming
0:28:05 > 0:28:08months will be the relationship between the House of Lords and the
0:28:08 > 0:28:12House of Commons in seeing people have the final say.When you say
0:28:12 > 0:28:18people have the final say, you are talking about a second referendum?
0:28:18 > 0:28:24The first referendum on Mrs May's terms on departure of the EU, not a
0:28:24 > 0:28:27rerun of the referendum two years ago because when we have that we
0:28:27 > 0:28:33didn't know what the terms would be. We are a democracy, we engage the
0:28:33 > 0:28:37people, this is the biggest decision since 1945 and the people should
0:28:37 > 0:28:43have the final say.Let me bring in Jacob Rees-Mogg on that, you are
0:28:43 > 0:28:48confident we will have a Brexit deal that will look attractive to most of
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the electorate so presumably you wouldn't be too worried about the
0:28:51 > 0:28:55second referendum on the terms of the deal?I think the ambition of
0:28:55 > 0:29:00the Lords in putting forward a second referendum is to try to stop
0:29:00 > 0:29:04tax it, and Lord Adonis has been clear about that. He said only
0:29:04 > 0:29:09yesterday he wanted to delete all of the clauses of the Withdrawal Bill.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12We have had a referendum, then a general election where both main
0:29:12 > 0:29:17parties backed the referendum results. I think if somebody wants a
0:29:17 > 0:29:21second referendum they should win a general election first, campaigning
0:29:21 > 0:29:26for one, rather than getting unelected peers to use it as a
0:29:26 > 0:29:29stratagem to obstruct Brexit. It is noticeable Lord Adonis and others
0:29:29 > 0:29:37have not called for a second referendum on other things
0:29:39 > 0:29:42referendum on other things like the Scottish vote.Lord Adonis, you have
0:29:42 > 0:29:45sent you will make the Government's life an absolute misery over the EU
0:29:45 > 0:29:48Withdrawal Bill which sounds as if you are using it as a stick to beat
0:29:48 > 0:29:54a policy or a decision you don't like rather than your real role
0:29:54 > 0:29:57which is legislative scrutiny. There's a huge amount of scrutiny to
0:29:57 > 0:30:01do. The powers which ministers are given in this bill is without
0:30:01 > 0:30:05precedent in a single piece of legislation, they have order making
0:30:05 > 0:30:09powers over the whole sphere of legislation that was previously
0:30:09 > 0:30:12enshrined in European law so if the House of Lords doesn't pay attention
0:30:12 > 0:30:17to that it's not doing its job. Coming back to Jacob's remarks,
0:30:17 > 0:30:23Jacob himself has been a
0:30:31 > 0:30:33supporter of the second referendum. In the House of Commons in 2011 he
0:30:33 > 0:30:36himself set out a case for a referendum on the terms of departure
0:30:36 > 0:30:38from the European Union if the electorate voted first time around
0:30:38 > 0:30:42to set the process in train. Jacob is contradicting his own position.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48You are shaking your head, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52That is simply inaccurate. There was a proposal for a referendum to begin
0:30:52 > 0:30:56a process of negotiating nonmembership, to give them a
0:30:56 > 0:31:01mandate, and he would come back with what he achieved, and there would be
0:31:01 > 0:31:05a referendum on the result. The Prime Minister decided to have a
0:31:05 > 0:31:11straightforward referendum, in or out. Lord Adonis is speaking about
0:31:11 > 0:31:15discussion before the referendum terms were set, then they were set,
0:31:15 > 0:31:19everyone knew what they were voting for, to leave the EU, it was clear
0:31:19 > 0:31:24that meant leaving the single market and the customs union. I put a dent
0:31:24 > 0:31:31Lord Adonis, he would not be calling for a second referendum had Remain
0:31:31 > 0:31:35won.That is completely untrue. We did not know what the terms were.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38The Conservative manifesto for the election before said we would stay
0:31:38 > 0:31:45in the single market. These are Jacob's words, in the House of
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Commons, in 2011, it might make sense to have the second referendum
0:31:49 > 0:31:53after the renegotiation is completed...He says he is talking
0:31:53 > 0:31:59about Cameron's renegotiation that he went to before.Exactly the same
0:31:59 > 0:32:02principle applies now. We are seeing the terms Mrs May is coming back
0:32:02 > 0:32:05with, it is absolutely right that people should have a safe and it
0:32:05 > 0:32:09should not be Jacob Rees Mogg and Brexit ideologues deciding what the
0:32:09 > 0:32:18terms are.The difficulty with this is that people decided in a
0:32:18 > 0:32:20referendum, the general election manifestos of both parties committed
0:32:20 > 0:32:24to carrying out the result of the referendum, if Lord Adonis wants to
0:32:24 > 0:32:28put his case forward, he should try to stand for election, something I
0:32:28 > 0:32:33do not think he has ever done, win a general election campaigning to
0:32:33 > 0:32:37reverse the result. Unelected peers should not try to frustrate the will
0:32:37 > 0:32:41of the British people, as now expressed in two Democratic votes.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45On that, you have been issuing some veiled threats this week, saying the
0:32:45 > 0:32:49House of Lords would get into difficulties if they try to
0:32:49 > 0:32:53frustrate Brexit, what do you mean by that?I think what Baroness Smith
0:32:53 > 0:32:58is saying is very sensible, the House of Lords will abide by the
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Constitutional conventions, it will look to revise, I have concerns
0:33:01 > 0:33:03about some of the Henry
0:34:00 > 0:34:01to get Brexit through without the people the final say. He is dodging
0:34:01 > 0:34:04the issue because nobody is talking about the House of Lords asserting
0:34:04 > 0:34:09itself against the people. The issue which it will come down to resist
0:34:09 > 0:34:13the House of Lords invites the House of Commons, Jacob and his
0:34:13 > 0:34:15colleagues, themselves to reach a decision again on the issue of
0:34:15 > 0:34:21whether they should have a referendum on the final terms. It is
0:34:21 > 0:34:24not anti-democratic, it is the proper expression of democracy and
0:34:24 > 0:34:29the House of Lords. It is something which Jacob himself has supported in
0:34:29 > 0:34:33the past, no longer convenient for him to recognise that fact, but
0:34:33 > 0:34:39people's past does catch up with them. Nigel Farage has come to
0:34:39 > 0:34:45support a referendum on Mrs May's Brexit deal because he realises it
0:34:45 > 0:34:49is inevitable. As people realise the gravity of this decision and the
0:34:49 > 0:34:52fact Parliament itself is not in a great place to take it because there
0:34:52 > 0:34:58has been a referendum. The case for a referendum on Mrs May's terms will
0:34:58 > 0:35:01be unstoppable and the House of Lords will play an important
0:35:01 > 0:35:05democratic role in inviting the House of Commons to reach a decision
0:35:05 > 0:35:08on that.Jacob Rees Mogg, it would be ironic if the British
0:35:08 > 0:35:12constitution is working its way with the House of Lords making its
0:35:12 > 0:35:16revisions sending it back to the Commons, for you to argue against
0:35:16 > 0:35:21that, when what you wanted was for us to take control back of our own
0:35:21 > 0:35:25government.I am all in favour of taking back control and decisions
0:35:25 > 0:35:29being made in the House of Commons with the Lords acting as a revising
0:35:29 > 0:35:34Chamber. You have to understand the motives, they are trying to obstruct
0:35:34 > 0:35:39Brexit. Lord Adonis said the decision to leave for is as big a
0:35:39 > 0:35:46mistake as appeasement in the 1930s, almost hysterical reaction to the
0:35:46 > 0:35:50Brexit decision, and they are using it as a strategy to frustrate
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Brexit. What they should do is not used the unelected Lords but they
0:35:54 > 0:35:57should campaign in a general election if they have to campaign to
0:35:57 > 0:36:02do it as the Labour Party notably didn't in 2017, to call for a second
0:36:02 > 0:36:05referendum and reverse the result, but they do not have the courage
0:36:05 > 0:36:08because they know the British people are not with them.One slightly
0:36:08 > 0:36:13different thing before we finish, are you excited the buyer tapestry
0:36:13 > 0:36:16is coming to Britain, you don't think it is maybe a bit cheeky of
0:36:16 > 0:36:21the French celebrating something to a celebrating the Norman victory
0:36:21 > 0:36:31over the British?-- Bayeaux tapestry. I think it is a splendid
0:36:31 > 0:36:35gesture. We could send them a fragment of the union Jack from
0:36:35 > 0:36:42Nelson's ship at Trafalgar to remind them that by and large we win the
0:36:42 > 0:36:49battles.Some people have suggested we send Jacob but Bayeaux tapestry
0:36:49 > 0:36:54is much more recent in its views.On the big issue of Brexit... We will
0:36:54 > 0:36:57have to leave it there, Jacob Rees Mogg, Lord Adonis, thank you for
0:36:57 > 0:36:59that.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01And you can find more Brexit analysis
0:37:01 > 0:37:03and explanation on the BBC website, at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:37:04 > 0:37:05It's coming up to 11.40am.
0:37:05 > 0:37:10You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14Coming up on the programme:
0:37:14 > 0:37:15The Scottish Labour leader
0:37:15 > 0:37:18Richard Leonard joins me live in the studio to talk
0:37:18 > 0:37:21about his plans to turn around the party's fortunes.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24Patrick Harvie tells me that the SNP must reverse council cuts before
0:37:24 > 0:37:32the Greens will back the Scottish Budget.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34And private money helped to build new schools
0:37:34 > 0:37:36and hospitals across the UK, but amid the controversy and fallout
0:37:36 > 0:37:46from Carillion's collapse, is it time for a rethink?
0:37:46 > 0:37:50For every hospital or school built, we have paid for three.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52Since 1999, Scottish Labour has had as many different leaders as Italy
0:37:52 > 0:37:55has had prime ministers.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57In the same period, they have gone from coalition government
0:37:57 > 0:38:00to the third party of Holyrood.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Among its former leaders, one resigned after calling himself
0:38:03 > 0:38:06a "muddler," another stepped down describing it as a "branch party,"
0:38:06 > 0:38:09and its last leader, Kezia Dugdale, made it clear her party's internal
0:38:09 > 0:38:17politics were fractious.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20That was before she headed to Australia to take part in a game
0:38:20 > 0:38:20show.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24Its latest leader, it's fair to say, is about as far away from celebrity
0:38:24 > 0:38:27as it's possible to get, but after a few months in the job,
0:38:27 > 0:38:29is he wanting to get out of there?
0:38:29 > 0:38:30Well, let's find out.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34You haven't had enough, have you? Absolutely not, I have only just
0:38:34 > 0:38:40begun!Let's talk about Europe, Neil Finlay, at your Brexit spokesperson,
0:38:40 > 0:38:44says a second referendum on EU membership cannot be ruled out. You
0:38:44 > 0:38:48have responded by saying you think it is more likely that the Tories
0:38:48 > 0:38:53will lose a vote on the final deal and they will be a general election
0:38:53 > 0:38:58at which you presumably hope Labour will sweep to power, and when Labour
0:38:58 > 0:39:04sweeps to power, it should do what exactly about the EU?It depends
0:39:04 > 0:39:10what stage the negotiations have reached. My scenario is that I think
0:39:10 > 0:39:14the deal forged by to reason me, David Davies, Boris Johnson, will be
0:39:14 > 0:39:19an insufficient one to satisfy the demands of the people of this
0:39:19 > 0:39:23country and the elected representatives of this country, so
0:39:23 > 0:39:28I can see there being a voting down of the deal which will precipitate
0:39:28 > 0:39:31an election.And Labour would argue in that election campaign and once
0:39:31 > 0:39:36it wins it, in your view, for what, staying in the single market and the
0:39:36 > 0:39:41customs union?We have made clear we think it is important that access,
0:39:41 > 0:39:46tariff free access to the single market is important, because we have
0:39:46 > 0:39:56said our priority is jobs, and the economy, but also things like
0:39:56 > 0:39:57environmental protection, consumer protection and workers' rights,
0:39:57 > 0:40:01which we want to see safeguarded in a post Brexit UK.Does that mean you
0:40:01 > 0:40:04are in favour of being in the customs union for example?There is
0:40:04 > 0:40:09a compelling case for being in the customs union, in the sense that
0:40:09 > 0:40:16that would certainly provide us with a tariff free trading area to be a
0:40:16 > 0:40:22part of, so I think that has an appeal to it, but...It is not
0:40:22 > 0:40:26Jeremy Corbyn's view. The whips towed Labour to vote recently
0:40:26 > 0:40:30against a proposal tothere are issues around the timing of issues
0:40:30 > 0:40:37being taken and there was a proposition put to Parliament which
0:40:37 > 0:40:42was too premature, and that was why the Parliamentary Labour Party...
0:40:42 > 0:40:47Not just Jeremy Corbyn but Kia Starmer... They took a decision not
0:40:47 > 0:40:51to vote for that amendment.Your view of the customs union. What
0:40:51 > 0:40:57about the single market?I am appealing for us to have access to
0:40:57 > 0:41:00the single market.You are saying stay in the customs union, what
0:41:00 > 0:41:04about staying in the single market? Membership of the single market
0:41:04 > 0:41:09would bring with it difficulties because there would be a membership
0:41:09 > 0:41:13fee to pay, and we would be in a situation where we would presumably
0:41:13 > 0:41:17be a member of the single market but without full membership rights to
0:41:17 > 0:41:22decide what the rules of the single market worth.You are against that?
0:41:22 > 0:41:27I don't think it is an advantageous position.A poll in the Observer
0:41:27 > 0:41:31this morning said 56% of likely Labour voters want Labour to back
0:41:31 > 0:41:34staying in both the single market and the customs union. Why so
0:41:34 > 0:41:39resistant to backing staying in the single market?Because I think there
0:41:39 > 0:41:42has been a referendum in which the voice of the people has been heard,
0:41:42 > 0:41:48and I have consistently said I don't think it is the place for
0:41:48 > 0:41:51politicians to stand in the wake of the decision taken by the people,
0:41:51 > 0:41:57and I would apply that to the 2016 referendum and also the 2014
0:41:57 > 0:42:03referendum in Scotland.OK. In what wait... Fine, if you come out and
0:42:03 > 0:42:07Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour of the customs union, which he hasn't
0:42:07 > 0:42:12done yet, but as of now, in what way is your position different from the
0:42:12 > 0:42:17Tories?Well, let me give you an example. Just before Christmas, to
0:42:17 > 0:42:23reason me was asked whether the working time directive would be
0:42:23 > 0:42:27incorporated and continued in UK law after Brexit -- the Prime Minister
0:42:27 > 0:42:32was asked. She refused to answer. The easiest way of doing that is to
0:42:32 > 0:42:36stay in the single market, by the way.It is currently UK law because
0:42:36 > 0:42:41it has been transposed from the European directive as regulations in
0:42:41 > 0:42:44UK law. Theresa May could simply say we will maintain this provision
0:42:44 > 0:42:48which provides for working people are right to paid holidays and a
0:42:48 > 0:42:53limitation on the amount of working time they have to spend each week
0:42:53 > 0:42:56and each month.The Scottish Government wants powers over
0:42:56 > 0:42:59immigration after we leave the EU, it says Scotland has economic issues
0:42:59 > 0:43:04which means we need it. Would you back them in that?I have an open
0:43:04 > 0:43:08mind on whether there needs to be a distinctive immigration policy for
0:43:08 > 0:43:14Scotland. When we were in power in the Scottish parliament, Labour
0:43:14 > 0:43:18introduced a fresh talent initiative which was a recognition that they
0:43:18 > 0:43:23needed to be a nuanced approach to migration in Scotland, and that
0:43:23 > 0:43:29wasn't just about...So you might be in favour of further immigration
0:43:29 > 0:43:35powers?I can see there being a case to be made for a power of variation
0:43:35 > 0:43:39for the Scottish context. It could also be a power which incidentally
0:43:39 > 0:43:47could be extended to London, Wales as well.OK. Nicola Sturgeon said
0:43:47 > 0:43:50this week she will make a decision later this year whether to hold
0:43:50 > 0:43:53another independence referendum. If she does, the British government
0:43:53 > 0:43:57will certainly tell her she cannot have one at least until after the
0:43:57 > 0:44:02next Scottish elections. Would you back the British government in that?
0:44:02 > 0:44:08It is not a case of whether about the British government. I am there
0:44:08 > 0:44:11to represent the interests of the Scottish Labour Party, and we have
0:44:11 > 0:44:15been absolutely clear that we do not see the case within a matter of a
0:44:15 > 0:44:20couple of years for a second independence referendum. The people
0:44:20 > 0:44:24were asked in 2014 and they gave a very clear answer, so I am firm on
0:44:24 > 0:44:28the question of whether they should be a second independence referendum.
0:44:28 > 0:44:33They should not be, there is no case for it.Nicola Sturgeon says she has
0:44:33 > 0:44:39a mandate from the manifesto of the 2016 Scottish elections and that
0:44:39 > 0:44:44runs until 2021, and the issue is that she should have... I know you
0:44:44 > 0:44:47are against the referendum, but the Scottish Government should have the
0:44:47 > 0:44:52right to call one, that's what I'm asking about.She put before the
0:44:52 > 0:44:57Scottish Parliament in the spring of last year the proposition that they
0:44:57 > 0:45:02should be a second independence referendum, and that sparked a real
0:45:02 > 0:45:06polarisation of opinion in Scotland. I have never witnessed... I have
0:45:06 > 0:45:10never witnessed since the days of Margaret Thatcher a political leader
0:45:10 > 0:45:15so divisive because of that call she made for a second independence
0:45:15 > 0:45:19referendum, and that's why I think the SNP have been forced to row back
0:45:19 > 0:45:22on it.If the SNP say they will have a new referendum and the British
0:45:22 > 0:45:33government says no, from the side of it -- sound of it, you support the
0:45:33 > 0:45:35British government.It is not a case of being one side of the British
0:45:35 > 0:45:38government, I am opposed to it because I cannot see sufficient
0:45:38 > 0:45:40material change to call for the second referendum, when it was
0:45:40 > 0:45:42undertaken that it would be a once in a generation opportunity for
0:45:42 > 0:45:46people to vote. I think we need to move on from the Scottish
0:45:46 > 0:45:50independence referendum question.In a budget debate last week called by
0:45:50 > 0:45:54your own party or finance spokesman denounced what he called was £700
0:45:54 > 0:45:59million of cuts to councils planned in the Scottish Budget. But when he
0:45:59 > 0:46:03was asked to explain how you, Labour, would raise £700 million in
0:46:03 > 0:46:11the addition to the money you would get by putting taxes up, he didn't
0:46:11 > 0:46:15have a clue. Can you enlighten us? We will enlighten you and the rest
0:46:15 > 0:46:21of the people of Scotland in the course of the next ten days. The
0:46:21 > 0:46:26stage one debate on the Scottish draft budget takes place a week on
0:46:26 > 0:46:29Wednesday. What I can say to you this morning is that we will
0:46:29 > 0:46:34undertake to put forward our plans on how we would...What are they,
0:46:34 > 0:46:39why is it a secret?It is not entirely secret. I have been on
0:46:39 > 0:46:43record as saying I think the additional penny on the top rate of
0:46:43 > 0:46:48income tax is a woefully timid approach. There needs to be a much
0:46:48 > 0:46:53more ambitious approach to the top rate of taxation. It was no secret
0:46:53 > 0:47:03in 2016 manifesto, we said the top rate ought to be 50p in the pound,
0:47:03 > 0:47:06so that I think is a reasonable proposition.Are you still in favour
0:47:06 > 0:47:09of a penny on the basic rate? That is not Corbin's policy but that of
0:47:09 > 0:47:11Scottish Labour till you became leader. Do you still support that or
0:47:11 > 0:47:17would you prefer to do what Corbin wants to do, put all the onus on
0:47:17 > 0:47:22higher rate taxpayers?Without revealing too much in advance of our
0:47:22 > 0:47:26announcement, the number of high wealth individuals in Scotland is
0:47:26 > 0:47:32less than in other parts of the UK, or less than the UK as a whole, so
0:47:32 > 0:47:37it is our empirical observation that we simply cannot look alone to
0:47:37 > 0:47:41people on the top rate of earnings to fill the whole of that gap. But I
0:47:41 > 0:47:46have also said as well that...I am completely confused. You are saying
0:47:46 > 0:47:56you are in favour of a penny on the basic rate?No, I'm saying we need
0:47:56 > 0:47:59to look beyond simply the top rate of income tax. One thing I think is
0:47:59 > 0:48:02worth examining is the case for a wealth tax. We have set up a tax and
0:48:02 > 0:48:07investment commission to look at that as an idea because one of the
0:48:07 > 0:48:12features of the society we live in has been a massive increase not just
0:48:12 > 0:48:17in income inequality but wealth inequality, and it is duty bound on
0:48:17 > 0:48:21us as a party in favour of redistribution and equality to
0:48:21 > 0:48:26address that question of wealth inequalities.Kezia Dugdale, you
0:48:26 > 0:48:30reprimanded her for going to Australia to appear in a game show.
0:48:30 > 0:48:35She appears to have kept £40,000 of the £45,000 she received from that,
0:48:35 > 0:48:41the other £5,000 to charity. If and when you are on Quickly Come Dancing
0:48:41 > 0:48:46would you give the proceeds to charity or the party, and you think
0:48:46 > 0:48:49she should have done?That is hypothetical because there is no
0:48:49 > 0:48:54chance of me appearing on any celebrity programme!You can give me
0:48:54 > 0:48:57the real answer now, do you think you should have given the money to
0:48:57 > 0:49:01charity or the party?That it is a decision for there to make and
0:49:01 > 0:49:06people will judge her based on that. Richard Leonard, don't rule yourself
0:49:06 > 0:49:11out!Have you seen me dance?Maybe the nation wants to see you dance!
0:49:11 > 0:49:15We have to leave it there, thanks very much.
0:49:15 > 0:49:17The collapse of the construction firm Carillion seems to have
0:49:17 > 0:49:20polarised politics in a way not seen since the 1980s, with Labour
0:49:20 > 0:49:22championing public ownership and the Conservative government
0:49:22 > 0:49:24standing up for the benefits of free enterprise.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26In truth, all governments, not least the Scottish Government,
0:49:26 > 0:49:28have been happy to benefit from shiny new schools and hospitals
0:49:28 > 0:49:30funded by the private sector.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32But as the National Audit Office pointed out this week,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34there's little evidence that PFI contracts represent good value
0:49:34 > 0:49:36for money, often leaving the taxpayer paying billions more
0:49:36 > 0:49:39in the form of repayments.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42In a moment, we'll discuss whether it really is a case
0:49:42 > 0:49:51of "public good, private bad", but first, here's Graham Stewart.
0:50:02 > 0:50:08The artist impression of how the three companies see a bridge which
0:50:08 > 0:50:10would span the distance to the island and are revealed. Now they
0:50:10 > 0:50:14will be doing the sums before submitting a tender which will need
0:50:14 > 0:50:25to design, build and operate than pay for the bridge. It was the first
0:50:25 > 0:50:28major Government project funded by the Private Finance initiative.
0:50:28 > 0:50:33Built at a cost of £20 million by the mother group. Like all five
0:50:33 > 0:50:39companies they wanted their money back and when tolls were charged a
0:50:39 > 0:50:42public protested, forcing the then Scottish executive to buy out the
0:50:42 > 0:50:45bridge contract for more than the bridge costs to build in the first
0:50:45 > 0:50:56place. Nearly three decades on and private finance is just as
0:50:56 > 0:50:59controversial. This week the construction giant Carillion into
0:50:59 > 0:51:01liquidation after that lost money on big Government contracts and run up
0:51:01 > 0:51:07huge debts. It is partly responsible for projects such as the Aberdeen
0:51:07 > 0:51:11bypass and its collapse threatens thousands of jobs across the UK.
0:51:11 > 0:51:17That rekindled an age-old debate in the Commons this week.These
0:51:17 > 0:51:24corporations need to be shown the door. We need our public services
0:51:24 > 0:51:29provided by public employees with a public service ethos and a stronger
0:51:29 > 0:51:34public oversight. As the ruins of Carillion lie around her, will the
0:51:34 > 0:51:40Prime Minister act to end this costly racket of the relationship
0:51:40 > 0:51:45between Government and some these companies?What Labour opposes not
0:51:45 > 0:51:49just a role for private companies and public services but the private
0:51:49 > 0:51:55sector as a whole. The vast majority of people in this country in
0:51:55 > 0:51:59employment are employed by the private sector. But the Shadow
0:51:59 > 0:52:07Chancellor calls business is the real enemy.But when in power,
0:52:07 > 0:52:11Labour were even more enthusiastic about the Private Finance initiative
0:52:11 > 0:52:14than the Conservatives as the former Health Secretary under Gordon Brown
0:52:14 > 0:52:22explained this week.Each choice we were given was the wrong one,... The
0:52:22 > 0:52:30Treasury...I was a Treasury official, they have never liked PFI.
0:52:30 > 0:52:36Who told you you had to do it that way? Was it Gordon Brown of the
0:52:36 > 0:52:52Treasury?It was both.David is banging on about politics again.The
0:52:52 > 0:52:54SNP Government have been happy to take credit for schemes funded by
0:52:54 > 0:53:02private finance.What have the SNP Government ever done for us?The
0:53:02 > 0:53:12belt or do not skills, 750.Remember who the schools used to be...You
0:53:12 > 0:53:16skills may be modern but been concerns over loading standards ever
0:53:16 > 0:53:22since Mrs Elliott fell from an Edinburgh primary. A total of 17
0:53:22 > 0:53:27schools across the city were forced to close. This exposed some of the
0:53:27 > 0:53:34flaws of privately funded schemes. By the cash for the buildings
0:53:34 > 0:53:39consist Ali expensive new schools or hospitals but as the watchdog
0:53:39 > 0:53:42pointed out, private companies borrow at a higher rate of interest
0:53:42 > 0:53:45and that can end up costing the taxpayer millions of pounds more
0:53:45 > 0:53:52over the coming decades.For every hospital or school built we pay for
0:53:52 > 0:53:59three. So instead of having three hospitals and three schools, we're
0:53:59 > 0:54:01actually only getting one. That is what a bad deal this is for the
0:54:01 > 0:54:07public.One junior minister in the last Labour Government concedes with
0:54:07 > 0:54:11hindsight that some deals did not offer value for money but says the
0:54:11 > 0:54:15private sector should not be demonised.Some companies go bust
0:54:15 > 0:54:18and others do well. Canadian is a private company that has happened to
0:54:18 > 0:54:25have gone bust, the vast majority are doing well. I can think of some
0:54:25 > 0:54:29one by councils in Scotland to England 1990s did not quite go bust
0:54:29 > 0:54:32because they were part of the local council but they had massive
0:54:32 > 0:54:38mismanagement and financial problems.The private sector's will
0:54:38 > 0:54:41in the running of the deal raises under scrutiny. The Scottish
0:54:41 > 0:54:47Government has floated the idea of the public sector bid for ScotRail.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50One transport union has predicted that the lead to an immediate 6%
0:54:50 > 0:54:56drop in fields. Others are not so sure.The total amount taken by any
0:54:56 > 0:55:02of the franchise operators in Britain as between 2.5% to 3%. The
0:55:02 > 0:55:06margins are very very tight. Those politicians who think they can
0:55:06 > 0:55:14transform the industry by redirecting those profits into
0:55:14 > 0:55:20reducing fears will be disappointed. Jeremy Corbyn pots Labour Party
0:55:20 > 0:55:23would bring private rail companies back into public ownership as well
0:55:23 > 0:55:29as ending the private finance initiative. There are calls for the
0:55:29 > 0:55:32current Government to operate a level playing field between private
0:55:32 > 0:55:37and public sectors.It needs to open the books on PFI, there should be no
0:55:37 > 0:55:45hiding behind commercial confidence. And the high interest rates and the
0:55:45 > 0:55:54returns to investors.On a clear day the splendour of the Skye Bridge is
0:55:54 > 0:55:59there for all to see but when it opened in 1995 the Government
0:55:59 > 0:56:04stopped the ferry service, granting the consortium that built the bridge
0:56:04 > 0:56:10a monopoly to charge tolls. 20 years on opponents of private finance say
0:56:10 > 0:56:12all they want is transparency.
0:56:12 > 0:56:13That was Graham Stewart reporting.
0:56:13 > 0:56:16Joining me now from Aberdeen is the SNP's Gillian Martin,
0:56:16 > 0:56:23and in Edinburgh is the Conservative Jamie Halcro Johnston.
0:56:23 > 0:56:33Before we get into a debate on this, I know your constituency contains
0:56:33 > 0:56:36the Aberdeen bypass, as far as you an awareness everyone going to keep
0:56:36 > 0:56:43their jobs and not be completed on time?There has been no more update
0:56:43 > 0:56:51on that since earlier in the week when actually Balfour Beatty and the
0:56:51 > 0:56:58other part of the consortium are looking to work with the
0:56:58 > 0:57:02administration people over how they will finish the contract. They are
0:57:02 > 0:57:04going to finish the contract they said they will, and they are going
0:57:04 > 0:57:13to I hope employ those that are may lose their jobs as a result of
0:57:13 > 0:57:18Carillion. It still needs to be built and to the deadline they set
0:57:18 > 0:57:26and it still has to be built to the deal that was made. That is ongoing.
0:57:26 > 0:57:30Jeremy Corbyn says private companies doing public contracts should be
0:57:30 > 0:57:35shown the door. Do you agree?The private companies should be shown
0:57:35 > 0:57:42the door? No, because you are conflicting, we do not have PFI in
0:57:42 > 0:57:48Scotland, we have put in place that you would have a non-profit capping
0:57:48 > 0:57:52on private companies so it is considered a different situation,
0:57:52 > 0:57:56and that is the situation with the high pass, they have a commitment to
0:57:56 > 0:58:02deliver that in budget and on time and that is what is different from
0:58:02 > 0:58:08situations in a list of the UK.So PFI is bad, PFI renamed by the
0:58:08 > 0:58:13Scottish Government is good?I do not think it is a case of renaming
0:58:13 > 0:58:17it, it is completely different. It is better value for money for one
0:58:17 > 0:58:20thing is and that is a cap on profits which there was not with
0:58:20 > 0:58:23PFI. Some of the things in the report are conflicting court is
0:58:23 > 0:58:29going on in the rest of the UK with Scotland.The National Audit Office
0:58:29 > 0:58:34produced a report this week, previous reports have been a bit
0:58:34 > 0:58:37ambiguous, they say it depends on the project but this was a blanket
0:58:37 > 0:58:41finding that PFI projects were not good value for money for the public.
0:58:41 > 0:58:48If you look across the study of PFI, that the number of very important
0:58:48 > 0:58:51projects that have been delivered because of it and it is a role for
0:58:51 > 0:58:58private sector finance within these projects but we recognise that there
0:58:58 > 0:59:01are concerns around costings and flexibility of some of the contracts
0:59:01 > 0:59:07and also the opaque nature of some of these contracts that is why it's
0:59:07 > 0:59:13critical we get more transparency within that process. Also looking
0:59:13 > 0:59:16forward to that when these contracts are being negotiated, a renegotiated
0:59:16 > 0:59:24in some cases, the effort is made to ensure that local authorities...
0:59:24 > 0:59:32Would you accept the argument that PFI contracts and the Scottish
0:59:32 > 0:59:35Government's non-distribute of contacts, there's no commonality
0:59:35 > 0:59:42between them?I'm not sure if that is no commonality but we try to
0:59:42 > 0:59:48ensure that local authorities and other public bodies that are
0:59:48 > 0:59:52involved in accessing private finance as part of these contracts
0:59:52 > 0:59:56are not held to ransom. Anything that can be done to improve that is
0:59:56 > 1:00:01obviously very welcome. One of the issues that has come up is
1:00:01 > 1:00:04transparency, they can be very opaque and that is why from a UK
1:00:04 > 1:00:10Government point of view they have done a lot of work ensuring they
1:00:10 > 1:00:13meet their commitments to make these contracts more transparent, whether
1:00:13 > 1:00:19that is ensuring they have included, liabilities and included are,
1:00:19 > 1:00:23Government accounts are publishing data so that people can make a
1:00:23 > 1:00:31choice.The other side of this is because so many contracts have
1:00:31 > 1:00:33either been PFI of this nondestructive model that the
1:00:33 > 1:00:40Scottish Government has introduced, don't we tend to forget that
1:00:40 > 1:00:43straightforward contracts with the Government raises money and build
1:00:43 > 1:00:47things like the Scottish Parliament, can be vastly overbudget and it is
1:00:47 > 1:00:53the public who have to take the rap when they have overbudget so there
1:00:53 > 1:00:56are advantages to these private contracts?That is the difference
1:00:56 > 1:00:59between PFI and the other model that you describe, nonprofit distribution
1:00:59 > 1:01:08model. It is a case again...And a PFI the private companies take the
1:01:08 > 1:01:14that as I was saying the Scottish Government was the public who took
1:01:14 > 1:01:17the that.The difference now is we do not have that model so we do not
1:01:17 > 1:01:25have a situation of the cost of something major would be completely
1:01:25 > 1:01:29and utterly runaway costs that they're not have...And PFI
1:01:29 > 1:01:34contracts they are not run away, as is the private companies that take
1:01:34 > 1:01:37responsibility.PFI does not exist in Scotland any more. The applicant
1:01:37 > 1:01:40with a different model and do not forget we have the Scottish
1:01:40 > 1:01:44investment banks being set up so we are looking at refining the model
1:01:44 > 1:01:48even warmer other part of the jigsaw in place which could mean a deal
1:01:48 > 1:01:53difference to how things are built in Scotland.Thank you.
1:01:53 > 1:01:56The consensus once again this year is that the deal the SNP Government
1:01:56 > 1:01:58does to get its budget through Holyrood will be
1:01:58 > 1:01:59done with the Greens.
1:01:59 > 1:02:02So what will that party get in return for such crucial support?
1:02:02 > 1:02:09Earlier I spoke to their co-convenor Patrick Harvie.
1:02:09 > 1:02:14Where are we with the budget? You will vote against it unless you get
1:02:14 > 1:02:20more concessions?Last week there was an opposition debates, Labour
1:02:20 > 1:02:27debate billed as no confidence in the Scottish budget which I think
1:02:27 > 1:02:31opposition parties especially when there was a minority Government have
1:02:31 > 1:02:35a responsibility to be constructive, we did this, we have been clear all
1:02:35 > 1:02:40the way along that there are three key areas women need to do more.Can
1:02:40 > 1:02:45we just go through?We have an agreement that they need to amend
1:02:45 > 1:02:50the draft budget to deal with local Government public sector pay and
1:02:50 > 1:02:54low-carbon investment.Let's briefly look at the public sector pay, they
1:02:54 > 1:02:58said they will give 3% to anyone ended in the coming under £30,000.
1:02:58 > 1:03:04You will not relate and vote against the people over the past 30,003%
1:03:04 > 1:03:06UMPIRE: Game, set and match, There's not a specific
1:03:07 > 1:03:11pay policy itself and that will be subject to negotiation with the
1:03:11 > 1:03:18unions. The ambition and a fair case of people deserve and inflation
1:03:18 > 1:03:20-based increase and if you look particularly at the spears of
1:03:20 > 1:03:26teachers who have gone from seeing a decade of erosion and their pay,
1:03:26 > 1:03:34they don't compare very preventable countries. I know it is... I am
1:03:34 > 1:03:40trying to get to, have you seen you will not vote for the budget unless
1:03:40 > 1:03:44that is a 3% pay rise for people earning over £30,000?What we have
1:03:44 > 1:03:49said as the Government has to reverse the proposal for £157
1:03:49 > 1:03:54million of cuts...Let's stick to the page.Make a fair contribution
1:03:54 > 1:03:58to the extra cost the local Government will have to meet if they
1:03:58 > 1:04:02were having a policy that is what is acceptable to the unions.That does
1:04:02 > 1:04:07not answer my question which was as one of your red lines that public
1:04:07 > 1:04:10sector workers who are running more than £30,000 should get an efficient
1:04:10 > 1:04:15paydays of the present?Personally I do not think the Government has made
1:04:15 > 1:04:19a strong case for that cut off but it is for the unions to negotiate.
1:04:19 > 1:04:27That is not a deadline for you and the budget?It is for the unions to
1:04:27 > 1:04:31decide. Unique causation at local Government level is separate to that
1:04:31 > 1:04:33policy and local governments needs to be any position of knowing that
1:04:33 > 1:04:37they have the resources available to make a fair pay offer at local
1:04:37 > 1:04:40Government level.You want more money for local Government? How
1:04:40 > 1:04:51much?The spice analysis suggests that is £157 million... That is the
1:04:51 > 1:04:55independent analysis not recover any particle party so we think that is
1:04:55 > 1:04:59the fairest figure, it is the equivalent analysis to the one be
1:04:59 > 1:05:02used last year they said there was blood and £60 million of cuts. We
1:05:02 > 1:05:07reverse that, it is a very similar figure. But above that cancer need a
1:05:07 > 1:05:17fair contribution to the costs that they are going to face.You said
1:05:17 > 1:05:22157, plus how much work they need to make what you call a fake pet --
1:05:22 > 1:05:28fair pay settlement?That is a judgment call. The more we can do on
1:05:28 > 1:05:32that, the better position councils will be in to negotiate...I want to
1:05:32 > 1:05:38know your red line, gear, it is you want at least £157 million more for
1:05:38 > 1:05:43local government but some extra to take care of pay demands?That cut
1:05:43 > 1:05:49is unacceptable and has to go if the government had to be consistent with
1:05:49 > 1:05:53the way they voted on Wednesday last week when they said they needed to
1:05:53 > 1:05:57amend their draft budget to protect local services. But they does have
1:05:57 > 1:06:02to be a contribution... A lot of councils are budgeting for something
1:06:02 > 1:06:06like 2% pay increase, if they want to go that little bit further, there
1:06:06 > 1:06:12will be a fair contribution.OK. Low Carbon projects, that could be
1:06:12 > 1:06:16anything, couldn't it, any amount of money because there are so many
1:06:16 > 1:06:21different things.In many ways this isn't about the money in the coming
1:06:21 > 1:06:25year's budget but the direction of travel. The low carbon
1:06:25 > 1:06:28infrastructure task force recommends that 70% of capital budget should be
1:06:28 > 1:06:33on low carbon. We are way below that in Scotland.Your red line on that
1:06:33 > 1:06:38one is just make a bit of progress? We have said that there needs to be
1:06:38 > 1:06:42that long-term direction of travel -- long-term, but we have flagged
1:06:42 > 1:06:46specific areas where local communities are campaigning for
1:06:46 > 1:06:53improvements, new stations and rail lines for example. The ability of
1:06:53 > 1:06:56communities to put those ideas on the table is limited at the moment
1:06:56 > 1:07:00so we have suggested mechanism, a relatively small amount of money,
1:07:00 > 1:07:03single figures of millions of pounds, where the Government could
1:07:03 > 1:07:06empower people to get their own appraisals and analysis done,
1:07:06 > 1:07:12viability studies for projects and have public transport to meet
1:07:12 > 1:07:15people's needs.Bottom line, you will vote the Budget through, there
1:07:15 > 1:07:21is no way you will oppose it?That is simply unrealistic. Look at the
1:07:21 > 1:07:25track record. We are the only party that has brought down a budget under
1:07:25 > 1:07:29the previous minority government when the Tories were voting for
1:07:29 > 1:07:33budget after budget after budget. We judge these things on their merits
1:07:33 > 1:07:37and very clearly, we have been bound by our party conference, we took
1:07:37 > 1:07:41these principles to party members who democratically voted on our
1:07:41 > 1:07:47priorities.FIM Derek Mackay I think, I had better give them the
1:07:47 > 1:07:50money on local government, he has probably put that in his
1:07:50 > 1:07:55calculations, and otherwise that is it.It is clear that Derek has
1:07:55 > 1:07:59proposed a tax plan that includes clear mistakes, he acknowledges it,
1:07:59 > 1:08:05calls it an anomaly where islanders will get a tax cut. There are clear
1:08:05 > 1:08:09opportunities for a better, fairer plan to fund the public services our
1:08:09 > 1:08:13country relies on.We have to leave it there, Patrick Harvie, thank you.
1:08:13 > 1:08:15Now it's time to look back over events and forwards
1:08:15 > 1:08:20to the week ahead.
1:08:20 > 1:08:22Joining me this week are the journalist Peter Geoghegan
1:08:22 > 1:08:24and the former Conservative health spokesperson and MSP Mary Scanlon.
1:08:24 > 1:08:31Welcome, both.
1:08:31 > 1:08:38Peter, Richard Leonard, I am not sure I know what Labour policy is on
1:08:38 > 1:08:42Brexit, but I am not sure... He was very adamant that Britain should
1:08:42 > 1:08:48stay in the customs union, I am not sure that is Labour policies.It is
1:08:48 > 1:08:50interesting, Jeremy Corbyn said previously we should leave the
1:08:50 > 1:08:57customs union and the single market. When it came to the single market he
1:08:57 > 1:09:02was saying, we shouldn't stay in, whereas he was passionate about the
1:09:02 > 1:09:06customs union. The UK has a deficit of good straight with the EU but a
1:09:06 > 1:09:11surplus of services so if we left the single market there could be all
1:09:11 > 1:09:14sorts of barriers to sending our services to the rest of the EU so in
1:09:14 > 1:09:17some respects you could argue that Britain needs to be in the single
1:09:17 > 1:09:20market more than the customs union, but when you listen to Richard
1:09:20 > 1:09:24Leonard it seemed to be that the red lines were drawn, and it wasn't
1:09:24 > 1:09:36quite clear what the reason for drawing the red
1:09:41 > 1:09:44line the way it is was. You can see the differences with the Labour
1:09:44 > 1:09:47Party at the UK level. It was also interesting the way he was talking
1:09:47 > 1:09:49about timing with Starmer and Corbyn saying some have been premature. It
1:09:49 > 1:09:52gives you the impression the Labour Party are looking at things less as
1:09:52 > 1:09:54red lines than choreography and it is maybe reflected in Scotland, it
1:09:54 > 1:09:56is easier to say these things because there isn't the same issue
1:09:56 > 1:09:59around Labour Leave voters than the rest of the UK.Meret, Peter makes a
1:09:59 > 1:10:03point about services. President Macron says this is your passport in
1:10:03 > 1:10:07for financial services and you cannot get that unless you are a
1:10:07 > 1:10:13member of the single market. John McDonnell earlier said getting that
1:10:13 > 1:10:17passport in is one of his red lines. I am not sure how you square these
1:10:17 > 1:10:23things.I have to say the charming Mr Macron did an excellent job, but
1:10:23 > 1:10:29he is one of 20 countries negotiating with the UK. There is
1:10:29 > 1:10:34still a long way to go in the negotiations, and I think the point
1:10:34 > 1:10:40Peter was making is that it has been very unclear prior to the Brexit
1:10:40 > 1:10:45referendum and since just exactly what Labour's case is, and that is
1:10:45 > 1:10:50why I think there are so many hold-ups, so much mudslinging at
1:10:50 > 1:10:54Westminster, because the Government has no idea what amendments the
1:10:54 > 1:10:59Labour Party will support or not support, and as a Remainer, I would
1:10:59 > 1:11:04also say that if Corbyn and the Labour Party had been clearer about
1:11:04 > 1:11:08Brexit in the lead up to the Brexit referendum, we might be in a
1:11:08 > 1:11:14different place now.OK. That is a very interesting way of not blaming
1:11:14 > 1:11:19David Cameron, who called the thing in the first place.Of course he
1:11:19 > 1:11:23did, but he probably expected a little more support from the Labour
1:11:23 > 1:11:29Party, and I think that was reasonable.Police Scotland, Peter,
1:11:29 > 1:11:34Susan Deacon, the new chair of the SPLA is coming up the committee this
1:11:34 > 1:11:36week with more shenanigans and shenanigans and accusations and
1:11:36 > 1:11:41counter accusations. Where is this going?It is almost like following
1:11:41 > 1:11:45Brexit in some respects, the machinations seem so labyrinthine
1:11:45 > 1:11:56and going on. We had the chief of Police Scotland's wife talking about
1:11:56 > 1:12:00accusations, there are still lots of questions. Susan Deacon is new in
1:12:00 > 1:12:06his job and the SPLA were rapped over the knuckles by auditors before
1:12:06 > 1:12:08Christmas who said their investigations were not fast or
1:12:08 > 1:12:15thorough enough and we have the issue was well about what happened
1:12:15 > 1:12:21in November. Then at the 11th hour, in transit, people were told to come
1:12:21 > 1:12:26back. There was a meeting between Mr Masterson and then SPA cheap which
1:12:26 > 1:12:30did not have minutes so we don't know what happens, the issue of not
1:12:30 > 1:12:33limiting becoming an issue with the Scottish Government so Susan Deacon
1:12:33 > 1:12:37will have do answer questions. There is a need for clarity.You could
1:12:37 > 1:12:46start the answer to each question by saying, I wasn't there! Is this just
1:12:46 > 1:12:50soap operas, Mary? It obviously had serious implications but is it just
1:12:50 > 1:12:55soap operas, or do you think there is a structural problem with Police
1:12:55 > 1:13:01Scotland or the SPA or both.There is but also a cultural problem.
1:13:01 > 1:13:05Taking for Gormley out of it there were problems when it was Stephen
1:13:05 > 1:13:13House. When Police Scotland was set up you have the SPA and Stephen
1:13:13 > 1:13:16House both hiring lawyers to determine what their job
1:13:16 > 1:13:21descriptions were, so there is a long history here. Whether Phil
1:13:21 > 1:13:26Gormley has done something wrong or not, he doesn't deserve... He has
1:13:26 > 1:13:31been paid £214,000 to do nothing, but at the same time, seven months
1:13:31 > 1:13:35is a long time to wait to be interviewed, so I do have a little
1:13:35 > 1:13:39bit of empathy with the points his wife is making this week. But the
1:13:39 > 1:13:44fact is that Police Scotland is rudderless, leaderless, they are
1:13:44 > 1:13:48about to take over the British Transport Police that the worst
1:13:48 > 1:13:51possible time -- Scottish transport police.We have to leave it there.
1:13:51 > 1:13:52That's all from us for this week.
1:13:52 > 1:13:55I'll be back on Wednesday afternoon with Politics Scotland.
1:13:55 > 1:13:58Until then, goodbye.