0:00:50 > 0:00:54Coming up and today's programme, having knocked cabinet heads
0:00:54 > 0:00:58together Theresa May lays out her plan for Brexit, but can she keep a
0:00:58 > 0:01:02low party onside? We will be speaking to a former Tory leader.
0:01:02 > 0:01:08Waiting in the wings is this man but can Jeremy Corbyn unite opposing
0:01:08 > 0:01:11forces in his own party, and convince the electorate he would do
0:01:11 > 0:01:14a better job Brexit? Forthcoming local elections in
0:01:14 > 0:01:22England should give a clue about outcomes of the two parties.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25And on Sunday Politics Scotland, I'll be asking the Scottish Higher
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Education Minister whether strikes by university lecturers over
0:01:27 > 0:01:33pensions are symptomatic of a bigger funding problem.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41And as usual, we've got three Westminster insiders who will take
0:01:41 > 0:01:44us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46Today I'm joined by Iain Dale, Kate McCann and Steve Richards.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Next month, Theresa May will begin formal negotiations
0:01:49 > 0:01:52with her European counterparts on what the future EU-UK
0:01:52 > 0:01:55relationship should look like.
0:01:55 > 0:02:00This week, she will lay out her vision of life after Brexit
0:02:00 > 0:02:03and she'll declare that our "best days really do lie ahead of us".
0:02:03 > 0:02:06EU leaders beg to differ though, and have already taken
0:02:06 > 0:02:07some pre-emptive swipes.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10But, while the talk is likely to get tough in Brussels,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12the key battles could be played out closer to home.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17It's known as the Brexit war committee, but the smiles suggested
0:02:17 > 0:02:20an outbreak of peace among the Cabinet's big beasts.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23For now, at least.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27They'd arrived at Chequers, the Prime Minister's country
0:02:27 > 0:02:30retreat, on Thursday afternoon, to try and agree a common position
0:02:30 > 0:02:33for the next round of Brexit talks.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39Eight hours later, ministers were apparently still smiling,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42having agreed on something called ambitious managed divergences
0:02:42 > 0:02:43and future trade with the EU.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46One of those present said the Prime Minister
0:02:46 > 0:02:48had played a blinder, but will it be enough to hold
0:02:48 > 0:02:51the whole party together?
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Earlier in the week, a letter from the pro-Brexit
0:02:54 > 0:02:58European reform group found its way into the newspapers,
0:02:58 > 0:03:00politely reminding the Prime Minister that when we leave,
0:03:00 > 0:03:05nothing but full regulatory autonomy will be good enough.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07But it's Remain-minded Tories who could throw a real
0:03:07 > 0:03:08spanner in the works.
0:03:08 > 0:03:16Conservative MP Anna Soubry announced on Thursday she had...
0:03:20 > 0:03:23"Tabled a new amendment to the trade bill to force the government to form
0:03:23 > 0:03:24a customs union with the EU".
0:03:24 > 0:03:2727 other EU countries also need to be won over.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29Brexit Secretary David Davis was in Vienna on Tuesday,
0:03:29 > 0:03:31colourfully describing what Brexit will not look like.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35They fear that Brexit will lead to an Anglo-Saxon race
0:03:35 > 0:03:39to the bottom, with Britain plunged into a Mad Max style world borrowed
0:03:39 > 0:03:43from dystopian fiction.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47These fears about a race to the bottom are based on nothing.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50But the EU are not convinced.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53European Council President Donald Tusk arguing that the UK
0:03:53 > 0:03:55was still trying to cherry pick its future
0:03:55 > 0:03:56relationship with the EU.
0:03:56 > 0:04:02I'm afraid that the UK position today is based on pure illusion.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Until now, Jeremy Corbyn has played his Brexit
0:04:05 > 0:04:09cards close to his chest.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13He may begin to reveal his hand in a major speech tomorrow and this
0:04:13 > 0:04:17week he unusually raised Brexit at Prime Minister's Questions.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20This government isn't on the road to Brexit, Mr Speaker,
0:04:20 > 0:04:21it's on the road to nowhere.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26Can I congratulate the right honourable gentleman,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28because normally he stands up every week and asks me
0:04:28 > 0:04:31to sign a blank cheque.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34And I know he likes cheques, but, really, that is terribly...
0:04:34 > 0:04:38That was a reference to reports that the Labour leader had held
0:04:38 > 0:04:42meetings with the former Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports with a social media video,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48in which he said rather cryptically, "Change is coming to
0:04:48 > 0:04:50the newspaper industry".
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Publishing these ridiculous smears that have been refuted by Czech
0:04:54 > 0:04:57officials shows just how worried the media bosses are at the prospect
0:04:57 > 0:04:58of a Labour government.
0:04:58 > 0:05:03They are right to be.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise to Mr Corbyn over a tweet
0:05:06 > 0:05:09about the allegations, saying...
0:05:18 > 0:05:22But it wasn't all Brexit and brush passes.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24The Prime Minister began the week announcing a review
0:05:24 > 0:05:25into higher education.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28We now have one of the most expensive systems of university
0:05:28 > 0:05:29tuition in the world.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Theresa May wants to demonstrate her government isn't
0:05:31 > 0:05:37simply defined by Brexit, but navigating the complications
0:05:37 > 0:05:40of leaving the EU is an all consuming task.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42If she can avoid it consuming her career, that
0:05:42 > 0:05:45could be her greatest achievement.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Steve, Kate and Iain were watching that with me.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Let's chew over what has been happening this week. People saying
0:05:56 > 0:05:59that meeting at Chequers, the Prime Minister played a blinder and got
0:05:59 > 0:06:02the Cabinet to agree. Outside the Cabinet, it looks like she is
0:06:02 > 0:06:09assaulted on all sides by pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,
0:06:09 > 0:06:14the EU, it's not as easy as all that?It is never going to be easy
0:06:14 > 0:06:17for a Prime Minister who hasn't got a Parliamentary majority. She is
0:06:17 > 0:06:20very resilient. Whenever she's knocked down, she bounces back
0:06:20 > 0:06:24again. I think she has had quite a reasonable week this week, starting
0:06:24 > 0:06:27off on the front foot and tuition fees and ending the week with the
0:06:27 > 0:06:31meeting at Chequers. I think a lot of commentators thought it was going
0:06:31 > 0:06:35to be a disaster, that they would agree on the way board. The proof in
0:06:35 > 0:06:39the pudding will be on what she says in the speech on Friday. We have
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Jeremy Corbyn mandates and effectively she has to up with
0:06:43 > 0:06:46probably quite a lot more detail than she has done in the past. I
0:06:46 > 0:06:50think they have the basis for that now.Kate, we've talked a lot on
0:06:50 > 0:06:53this programme about the arguments within the Cabinet but now it looks
0:06:53 > 0:06:59like the focus is now on the wider Conservative Party. You have
0:06:59 > 0:07:01probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry saying they want to stay in the
0:07:01 > 0:07:06customs union, a letter from pro except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg
0:07:06 > 0:07:10saying they want full regulatory divergence. Which group is likely to
0:07:10 > 0:07:14win the day?I think what is most interesting this week will be Jeremy
0:07:14 > 0:07:18Corbyn's speech on Monday. That comes before Theresa May's speech on
0:07:18 > 0:07:23Friday. That will help tip those two sites, as it were, and we will see
0:07:23 > 0:07:28what will happen with the customs union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to
0:07:28 > 0:07:31say he would like to stay in a customs union that is likely to make
0:07:31 > 0:07:35the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who
0:07:35 > 0:07:40want to back and push for a customs union feel like they have more
0:07:40 > 0:07:48control over that. Whether it is likely not promote we are yet to
0:07:48 > 0:07:51see. If Labour is shifting its customs union position that much,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54that gives Tory MPs a lot more strength in the House of Commons
0:07:54 > 0:07:57because the government has already pushed back a vote on the customs
0:07:57 > 0:08:02union because they are worried about what is going happen.Those pro
0:08:02 > 0:08:06remain Tories on the Labour Party believe they have the Parliamentary
0:08:06 > 0:08:09arithmetic to force a defeat on the government over the customs union,
0:08:09 > 0:08:15are they right about that?Certainly in theory they are right. There are
0:08:15 > 0:08:21enough Conservative MPs and if the opposition vote for this, the
0:08:21 > 0:08:24government faces a defeat with profound consequences. We will not
0:08:24 > 0:08:28know probably until the moment when the vote takes place. It will be a
0:08:28 > 0:08:32moment of one of these great Parliamentary dramas, where there
0:08:32 > 0:08:37will be huge pressure on Tory MPs not to go along with this and say,
0:08:37 > 0:08:41you are in alliance with Jeremy Corbyn and so on. We won't know
0:08:41 > 0:08:44until the vote but in theory they have the numbers. It would be a game
0:08:44 > 0:08:48changer if this amendment was carried.This is fascinating. It
0:08:48 > 0:08:51means the power has gone to the house of parliament and has left
0:08:51 > 0:08:55number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary Benn described this as a backbencher
0:08:55 > 0:08:58's parliament because the government doesn't have a majority. Is that
0:08:58 > 0:09:03where the authority lies now?In some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree
0:09:03 > 0:09:06about the Parliamentary arithmetic because some will die with the
0:09:06 > 0:09:10Conservatives, and we will hear from one later, Frank Field. There are a
0:09:10 > 0:09:15group of them. I wonder about the numbers on the Tory benches, there
0:09:15 > 0:09:20is a hard-core group of about ten or a dozen that you think might well
0:09:20 > 0:09:24support Anna Soubry's amendment but I don't really see it going much
0:09:24 > 0:09:28beyond that. But you are right, it will be on a bit of a knife edge. If
0:09:28 > 0:09:33it came to the government were defeated on this, then we are in
0:09:33 > 0:09:34uncharted waters, because the government could actually make it a
0:09:34 > 0:09:39vote of confidence. It would be very unusual to do one on an amendment to
0:09:39 > 0:09:42a bill but it is possible, or they could call a vote of confidence that
0:09:42 > 0:09:49would put Anna Soubry and all the others in
0:09:49 > 0:09:51others in a bit a tricky position. If they did vote against the
0:09:51 > 0:09:54government on a vote of confidence, they would have to be deselected.We
0:09:54 > 0:09:56will talk about that throughout the programme.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58Listening to all that is the former Conservative leader,
0:09:58 > 0:10:00and leading Brexit campaigner, Iain Duncan Smith.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Welcome to the programme. Do you accept there is a significant chance
0:10:03 > 0:10:06the government could be defeated on a customs union in the House of
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Commons question when you don't have a majority there is a chance to be
0:10:11 > 0:10:14defeated on anything.I love the way the media looks at this cost would
0:10:14 > 0:10:17take a pace back, it's a government that won the election and didn't get
0:10:17 > 0:10:20an overall majority so it means almost anything anyone is upset
0:10:20 > 0:10:24about could cause a problem for the government, fact of life. Brexit is
0:10:24 > 0:10:28just one, it's a very big issue but one of those, there has been other
0:10:28 > 0:10:31issues and there will be on the issue is following through.It
0:10:31 > 0:10:36matters to you whether we are in a customs union with the EU?Lots of
0:10:36 > 0:10:41things deeply matter to me, beyond Brexit. But yes. I think the key
0:10:41 > 0:10:44thing is not what I believe but the Prime Minister has been pretty clear
0:10:44 > 0:10:48about this from the word go, way before the election, during the
0:10:48 > 0:10:51election importantly and even subsequently she has made it very
0:10:51 > 0:10:54clear we are taking back control, leaving the customs union, single
0:10:54 > 0:10:58market, and at the same time making sure we get outside of the remit of
0:10:58 > 0:11:10the court of justice. She has been clear about this.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39Let's pick a bit of that. In her Lancaster House speech she said she
0:11:39 > 0:11:42wanted us to have a customs agreement with the EU, not a customs
0:11:42 > 0:11:43union but customs agreement. This controversial amendment Anna Soubry
0:11:43 > 0:11:46another Superdome says they want an agreement that enables the UK to be
0:11:46 > 0:11:49able to participate in a customs union with the EU, is there space
0:11:49 > 0:11:51for that?It depends what the detail is. The government set it out quite
0:11:51 > 0:11:54rightly on having a proper free trade arrang ement. You can describe
0:11:54 > 0:11:56a free-trade arrangement in all different ways but a free-trade
0:11:56 > 0:11:59arrangement is about us having a clear ability to sell-out goods into
0:11:59 > 0:12:00the European Union them to sell us without artificial trade barriers
0:12:00 > 0:12:02that will require arrangements that out customs arrangements. The big
0:12:02 > 0:12:05them to sell us without artificial trade barriers and that will require
0:12:05 > 0:12:07arrangements that out customs arrangements. The behind having a
0:12:07 > 0:12:09customs union and being outside a free-trade arrangement is we are 90%
0:12:09 > 0:12:12of the graces in the global economy in the next two years, we will be
0:12:12 > 0:12:16free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you to make trade
0:12:16 > 0:12:17arrangements with America, Australia, India, where ever we want
0:12:17 > 0:12:20to, where 90% of the growth is in the global economy in the next two
0:12:20 > 0:12:23years, we will be free to do that. If we are in a customs union, you
0:12:23 > 0:12:26agree do that and therefore we would have to what the European Union to
0:12:26 > 0:12:28what the European certainly be outvoted endlessly. This is about
0:12:28 > 0:12:30where does the power light and we would almost certainly be outvoted
0:12:30 > 0:12:33endlessly. This is about where does the with the rest of the world in a
0:12:33 > 0:12:35moment but exactly what you describe, the free-trade arrangement
0:12:35 > 0:12:38with no tariffs with the EUand the freedom to make those deals, that is
0:12:38 > 0:12:40what the EU called cherry picking? What they really called cherry
0:12:40 > 0:12:43picking is this arrangement we are talking about now, a customs union.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45They have been pretty clear about this. They said it is not
0:12:45 > 0:12:51acceptable. Let's look at it from the European Union to make those
0:12:51 > 0:12:53agreements?I want to get into the detail on free-trade deals with the
0:12:53 > 0:12:56rest of the world in a moment but exactly what you describe, the
0:12:56 > 0:12:59free-trade arrangement with no tariffs with the EU and the freedom
0:12:59 > 0:13:01to make those deals, that is what the EU called cherry picking?What
0:13:01 > 0:13:03they really called cherry picking is this arrangement we are talking
0:13:03 > 0:13:06about now, a customs union. They have been pretty clear about this.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08They said it is not acceptable. Let's look at it from the European
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Union's standpoint. We constantly look at what the UK once. You use is
0:13:11 > 0:13:13certainly not going to agree going into a customs union where we will
0:13:13 > 0:13:16then have over any future agreement, so we will outvote all 27 because we
0:13:16 > 0:13:18that would depend on the agreement. ...That would depend on the
0:13:18 > 0:13:21agreement. The EU wants would have enormous power against them, they an
0:13:21 > 0:13:23agreement, we would have enormous power against them, they won't agree
0:13:23 > 0:13:26because it is not in their interests to do I think what is more in
0:13:26 > 0:13:29arrangement. There are lots of countries that are already breaking
0:13:29 > 0:13:30ranks with the commission about this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we
0:13:30 > 0:13:32have to have a free-trade arrangement.They are not on that
0:13:32 > 0:13:35yet, they are still on the implementation phase. When it comes
0:13:35 > 0:13:37to free trade, I am very, very certain that they will want to make
0:13:37 > 0:13:40an arrangement with us because it is in their interests, arguably more
0:13:40 > 0:13:42than us. , they want a free-trade arrangement. There are lots of
0:13:42 > 0:13:44countries that are already breaking ranks with the commission about
0:13:44 > 0:13:46this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we have to have a free-trade
0:13:46 > 0:13:49arrangement. They are not on that yet, they are still on the
0:13:49 > 0:13:51implementation phase. When it comes to free-trade, I am very, very
0:13:51 > 0:13:54certain that they will want to make an arrangement with us because it is
0:13:54 > 0:13:56in their interests, arguably more than us let's move on to trade with
0:13:56 > 0:13:59the rest of the world. Why do so absolutely convinced that the
0:13:59 > 0:14:01ability to do with Australia, China, the ones the EU has at the,
0:14:01 > 0:14:04different from the ones the EU has at increasing our trade with these
0:14:04 > 0:14:06countries from inside the EU? Their biggestare so terribly important?
0:14:06 > 0:14:09Why can't we be increasing our trade with these countries from inside the
0:14:09 > 0:14:13EU?Their biggest free-trade we are naturally, the UK, more than any
0:14:13 > 0:14:15other country in the European country, arguably more than most in
0:14:15 > 0:14:20the world, a free-trade for free trade the WTO has a ready said they
0:14:20 > 0:14:23love the idea of us coming back as a full voting member because we will
0:14:23 > 0:14:25argue for free trade. By, global free trade and services, which stop
0:14:25 > 0:14:28because the European Union has not wanted to push the site at all.Do
0:14:28 > 0:14:32so much more trade with China than us from within the EU?That is to do
0:14:32 > 0:14:35with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it Germany do so
0:14:35 > 0:14:39much more trade with China than us from within the EU? That is to do
0:14:39 > 0:14:41with what Germany says they want to do and go and do it.Being a member
0:14:41 > 0:14:46of the EU has being a member of the EU be outside the that so why do we
0:14:46 > 0:14:52have to be outside you get rid of artificial tarrythat is not
0:14:52 > 0:14:54parallel argument. By getting trade arrangements you get rid of
0:14:54 > 0:14:56artificial and delays at the borders that allows you to increase your
0:14:56 > 0:15:00trade. We want from where we are. But at the same time, incoming stuff
0:15:00 > 0:15:05is just as important. The people who will benefit most from a free-trade
0:15:05 > 0:15:08arrangement of the poorest in society because the cost of food,
0:15:08 > 0:15:13footwear and clothing will almost certainly our trade from where we
0:15:13 > 0:15:24are. But at the same time, incoming stuff is just as important.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29You might as much larger and more important market. The skill is not
0:15:29 > 0:15:34that important. The key thing is, do you value a marketplace, is it worth
0:15:34 > 0:15:38doing business with? Financial services is an important are great
0:15:38 > 0:15:42-- an important area you want to strike agreements with. The UK's
0:15:42 > 0:15:45dominant in financial services and you cannot get a free-trade
0:15:45 > 0:15:49agreement within the single market at the moment. You cannot sell
0:15:49 > 0:15:57insurance in Germany without having a company in Germany to sell it.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00They have never wanted to do financial service is free trade. We
0:16:00 > 0:16:02will be in a much better state globally. You have seen the increase
0:16:02 > 0:16:05in New Zealand's trade when they went for free-trade and got rid of
0:16:05 > 0:16:09their trade barriers.A dramatic increase in no global position. The
0:16:09 > 0:16:16tragedy led to this and they reckon a free-trade deal with America we
0:16:16 > 0:16:24did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.I have a bone to pick with the BBC. There has
0:16:24 > 0:16:29been a brilliant economic report are independent, which has been given
0:16:29 > 0:16:32very little coverage which is taken apart the model that the Treasury
0:16:32 > 0:16:36and the government put together. For example, dealing with this. The
0:16:36 > 0:16:40reason why you arrive at this, it depends on what you assume to be the
0:16:40 > 0:16:44actual savings on the border. The government has only assumed a 4%
0:16:44 > 0:16:48saving on getting rid of tariff barriers. Almost every economist in
0:16:48 > 0:16:54the world agrees it is nearer to 20% saving.This study has been covered
0:16:54 > 0:16:59on the BBC it was on the Daily Politics on Friday. It assumes zero
0:16:59 > 0:17:04tariffs on absolutely everything. It is an extremely optimistic forecast.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08It assumes a 10% tariff at the end of the day, it assumes tariffs
0:17:08 > 0:17:14falling to an average of 10%, not zero. If they went to zero it would
0:17:14 > 0:17:19improve it even more. I have read this report backwards.One of the
0:17:19 > 0:17:23officers says that while there will be benefits from free-trade deals,
0:17:23 > 0:17:27over time it would be likely we would mostly eliminate manufacturing
0:17:27 > 0:17:31in UK by the things that would be worth it and it should not us.That
0:17:31 > 0:17:36was one of the original suggestions, much earlier.But he was one of the
0:17:36 > 0:17:40authors of this report.He was but he has accepted this is not going to
0:17:40 > 0:17:44be the case within this report. They're assuming that the border
0:17:44 > 0:17:47changes will mean less of a tariff on the borders at average. That is
0:17:47 > 0:17:51what happens in most other free-trade arrangements. The point
0:17:51 > 0:17:56I'm making is it has a massive benefit to the UK for us to do this.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58That is why going for a free-trade agreement with the European Union is
0:17:58 > 0:18:07the right way to go. We forget what Europe itself once.Labour is in a
0:18:07 > 0:18:10complete mess about this. We will talk to this about -- we will talk
0:18:10 > 0:18:14to them about that.They were in favour of leaving the customs union
0:18:14 > 0:18:17and the single market and Barry Gardner said it was making a vassal
0:18:17 > 0:18:22state if you stayed in the customs union. We will ask Labour themselves
0:18:22 > 0:18:26about that. Theresa May has made it clear where out of the single market
0:18:26 > 0:18:29and Customs union and I say to my colleagues who want to change some
0:18:29 > 0:18:34of this, just be very careful on this one, because being invited into
0:18:34 > 0:18:38a Labour Party tactical game which will end up in real damage the
0:18:38 > 0:18:42United Kingdom.Iain Duncan Smith, thank you very much for talking to
0:18:42 > 0:18:43us.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45So much for the Conservatives, but what about Labour?
0:18:45 > 0:18:47In 24 hours' time, Jeremy Corbyn will give
0:18:47 > 0:18:48a keynote speech on Brexit.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51All the signs are that he will back the UK staying permanently
0:18:51 > 0:18:53in a customs union with the EU.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56But over 80 senior Labour figures have today urged Mr Corbyn to go
0:18:56 > 0:18:59further and support staying in the single market as well.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01But how would that go down with the millions of Labour
0:19:01 > 0:19:02voters who backed Brexit?
0:19:02 > 0:19:04Here's what the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer,
0:19:04 > 0:19:05said this morning.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Well, we have long championed being in a customs union with the EU
0:19:08 > 0:19:13and the benefits of that.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Obviously, it is the only way, realistically, to get
0:19:15 > 0:19:17tariff free access.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21It is really important for our manufacturing base
0:19:21 > 0:19:24and nobody can answer the question how you keep your commitment to no
0:19:24 > 0:19:26hard border in Northern Ireland without a customs union.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29We have always said that the benefits of the single
0:19:29 > 0:19:32market must be there in the final agreement and that is a really
0:19:32 > 0:19:34important commitment because in the end, however
0:19:34 > 0:19:36you arrive at that, in whatever the instrument or agreement it is,
0:19:36 > 0:19:38the benefits have got to be there.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40Labour is agreed on that end state.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43There is obviously an argument about how we get there.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45To discuss this I'm joined by two Labour MPs who fall on opposing
0:19:45 > 0:19:47sides of the Brexit argument.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49Frank Field campaigned to leave the EU and Stella Creasy
0:19:49 > 0:19:52is a supporter of the pro-European group Open Britain.
0:19:52 > 0:19:57Thank you both for coming on the programme. Stella Creasy, you have
0:19:57 > 0:20:00signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn to be asking not only to stay in the
0:20:00 > 0:20:06customs union but also the single market. If you're in both of them, I
0:20:06 > 0:20:11really delivering on the referendum Brexit result?There are lots of
0:20:11 > 0:20:14different combinations that still see is leaving the European Union
0:20:14 > 0:20:18but do what Labour people across this country, and that is why there
0:20:18 > 0:20:21is support across the country and the party for this letter, which is
0:20:21 > 0:20:27to protect the jobs and incomes. We know that Brexit, any of the models,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30I am horrified to your Iain Duncan Smith dismissing the idea that
0:20:30 > 0:20:34manufacturing may be at stake or the numbers don't matter. It is a
0:20:34 > 0:20:39massive hit on our economy. It is a massive hit took peace in Northern
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Ireland if we leave the customs union. These are called labour
0:20:42 > 0:20:46values and that is what we are standing up for.You're asking to
0:20:46 > 0:20:50stay in the single market. The problem with that is you thought an
0:20:50 > 0:20:55election last year under a manifesto which said that free movement will
0:20:55 > 0:20:58end.You cannot do both. I am in the migration committee on the Council
0:20:58 > 0:21:02of Europe. Lots of people are willing to talk about how we make
0:21:02 > 0:21:05freedom of movement work. They recognise politicians have not got
0:21:05 > 0:21:10it right across the continent. If we are not fighting to stay in the
0:21:10 > 0:21:13single market we cannot have that conversation about what the reformed
0:21:13 > 0:21:17freedom of movement might look like. I think freedom of movement is an
0:21:17 > 0:21:21important right for people in this country. I do not want to have to
0:21:21 > 0:21:23see the kids in Walthamstow Birkenhead that their ability to
0:21:23 > 0:21:27work for a company that has a base outside the UK will be hampered by
0:21:27 > 0:21:34decisions we've made. That puts them in an austerity Britain and I do not
0:21:34 > 0:21:37want to do that.Frank Field, does this sound like a Brexit you could
0:21:37 > 0:21:42sell to any leave photo?No, and you know perfectly well we cannot sell
0:21:42 > 0:21:46it. I am looking forward to what Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because
0:21:46 > 0:21:53you have hyped it up. On every vote we have had Onuora before he came --
0:21:53 > 0:21:56before he became leader, Jeremy Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious
0:21:56 > 0:22:00of this organisation which is corrupt, it has never got its
0:22:00 > 0:22:05accounts audited, it is bankrupt. Whatever he says tomorrow he will
0:22:05 > 0:22:09not be arguing to stay in the EU, he will be arguing for the customs
0:22:09 > 0:22:18union?Please, let me finish. It is deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It
0:22:18 > 0:22:22has destabilised Europe with all this pretence about it has brought
0:22:22 > 0:22:29peace. Look what we have done to the area around Russia. Given there are
0:22:29 > 0:22:33number of states within Europe who depend on our contribution, we
0:22:33 > 0:22:37should be voting for a clear decorate -- a clear declaration, we
0:22:37 > 0:22:43want a free-trade area, and we have money. What are you going to choose.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46I think we should take the gloves off in these negotiations and look
0:22:46 > 0:22:51at the real power structure. They need our money, and for reasons
0:22:51 > 0:22:56which Stella Creasy has put forward, we need access to a free-market
0:22:56 > 0:22:59arrangement.What is your problem with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the
0:22:59 > 0:23:05Labour policy will be too clearly stay in a customs union?Two things.
0:23:05 > 0:23:11One, it goes against what we said at the election. It goes against all
0:23:11 > 0:23:16the scare tactics during the campaign, all the major figures were
0:23:16 > 0:23:21saying, you know, if you vote here, you're leaving the customs union,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25you're leaving the free market. There was no question about what the
0:23:25 > 0:23:31referendum was deciding. And the politics of this is, are we going to
0:23:31 > 0:23:36be run by a London agenda? I know Stella Creasy has got other issues
0:23:36 > 0:23:42that she reaches out across the country, but this is essentially a
0:23:42 > 0:23:45London agenda against Labour voters, particularly in the North.
0:23:45 > 0:23:50THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE You have got the mayor of Liverpool
0:23:50 > 0:23:54who signed this letter, the leader of Newcastle Council.You and I
0:23:54 > 0:23:58would in the lobby fighting together against this government's welfare
0:23:58 > 0:24:02cuts.£12 billion cuts.That is nothing to do with this. It
0:24:02 > 0:24:07absolutely is. Even the bare minimal model we are talking about would be
0:24:07 > 0:24:12ahead on our economy and the communities we represent. How can we
0:24:12 > 0:24:17vote Forestieri the? How can you do that to the voters, the People who
0:24:17 > 0:24:21work in the Vauxhall plants in the Wirral who are frightened they are
0:24:21 > 0:24:24about to lose their jobs. How can you do that to the People in
0:24:24 > 0:24:29Northern Ireland?Let me answer you, please. We have been through the
0:24:29 > 0:24:32courts. There is no problem about the Good Friday Agreement being
0:24:32 > 0:24:37challenged by this at all. We have got time, I am happy to discuss it.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41I think there are problems with the Good Friday Agreement and a customs
0:24:41 > 0:24:46union.No, it will remain. If we have time, I would love to discuss
0:24:46 > 0:24:53that with you. About austerity, can I answer that? We are net
0:24:53 > 0:24:55contributor. We will have money to be brought back. While some people
0:24:55 > 0:25:02have signed the order leaders even there, when you look at the
0:25:02 > 0:25:10parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May almost hollowed out our vote in the
0:25:10 > 0:25:14seats were only kept by a handful of votes. These are seats which voted
0:25:14 > 0:25:19very clearly to leave. That is the act of faith. I know there are
0:25:19 > 0:25:22problems about how do you give the electorate the sovereignty to decide
0:25:22 > 0:25:26an issue and then bring it back into a representative parliamentary
0:25:26 > 0:25:34system, but the vote was cleared to leave. The bill is about leaving and
0:25:34 > 0:25:37whether we support that or not and if we do not support that, I think
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Labour voters will draw their own messages in the North.Please do not
0:25:40 > 0:25:44drive Boris's bars for the People of those communities. You're saying
0:25:44 > 0:25:48that somehow we will get money back. All the evidence shows is that any
0:25:48 > 0:25:54money you get back will be dwarfed by what we will lose. You're talking
0:25:54 > 0:26:01about £1 billion coming back. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:26:01 > 0:26:05You can talk across me all you like, the numbers are there in the
0:26:05 > 0:26:09government's on analysis. That is what we have to front up to the
0:26:09 > 0:26:15communities we represent.Are you going to write on the People's
0:26:15 > 0:26:20decision to leave?You're coming out with all these things, we will stay
0:26:20 > 0:26:24in a customs union, we will stay in a single market, the decision was
0:26:24 > 0:26:31quite clear to leave. In the north, Labour voters voted very, very
0:26:31 > 0:26:38clearly. You going to rat on them or not? Never mind about buses and all
0:26:38 > 0:26:41the rest of it. It does matter. Let her answer. It
0:26:41 > 0:26:45is about the evidence that we now have. Democracy did not stop the day
0:26:45 > 0:26:49after the referendum.People have a right to see the detail.Of course
0:26:49 > 0:26:53they do. Do you accept that the government figures show clearly that
0:26:53 > 0:26:58if we stay in the European economic arrangement, which is out of the EU,
0:26:58 > 0:27:03we are still going to take a 16 pelt -- a £16 billion hit on our economy?
0:27:03 > 0:27:07That worse anything you get back. This letter is not just signed from
0:27:07 > 0:27:11people across the country but people across the trade union movement
0:27:11 > 0:27:17because they because they know the
0:27:24 > 0:27:26hard Brexit the government is pushing for and why it matters
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the customs union and single market
0:27:29 > 0:27:31membership.It means jobs and wages. What we should be fighting forest
0:27:31 > 0:27:33sector agreements with the European Union. We want a free-trade area.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36They have always opposed the activities of the city. There is no
0:27:36 > 0:27:38need to worry about the city. There is a need to worry about
0:27:38 > 0:27:41manufacturing and we will make special arrangements with them. The
0:27:41 > 0:27:45issue is clear, do we disguise the fact by pretending we're going to
0:27:45 > 0:27:51have a customs union or some other arrangement which counters what the
0:27:51 > 0:27:56clear declaration of northern Labour voters actually said?They have
0:27:56 > 0:28:00changed their side. A third of Labour voters did vote for leave.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04You risk them abandoning the party. This is not about rerunning the
0:28:04 > 0:28:09referendum. It is about what kind of deal do we get and is it in the best
0:28:09 > 0:28:12interests of Britain. I believe voters across this country have the
0:28:12 > 0:28:14right to know what is likely to happen.
0:28:14 > 0:28:23THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Of course they have a right.A right
0:28:23 > 0:28:29to every bit of information going. The key thing, we have had a
0:28:29 > 0:28:32referendum and we rarely use referendums for this reason, they
0:28:32 > 0:28:35are difficult to implement. The referendum decision was clear and
0:28:35 > 0:28:40particularly clear in the North from Labour voters. I want to keep faith
0:28:40 > 0:28:43with them. I voted to come out. I know it is harder for people who
0:28:43 > 0:28:51voted to stay in. Are we going to dress up a retreat, Agassi?Then
0:28:51 > 0:28:54there is a complicated decision for you to make. We've been talking
0:28:54 > 0:28:57about the amendment put forward by Anna Soubry and others, an amendment
0:28:57 > 0:29:02to the trade bill that will be voted on in a few time. There is a
0:29:02 > 0:29:05potential to defeat the government is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour
0:29:05 > 0:29:10of a customs union and whips his MPs to vote that way. If you had the
0:29:10 > 0:29:13opportunity to win a vote against the government and bring down
0:29:13 > 0:29:20Theresa May, would you vote with her to keep her in office or against?
0:29:20 > 0:29:23That is not the choice and you know that. That will be the choice on the
0:29:23 > 0:29:25day. We will have a decision, do we continue to implement the referendum
0:29:25 > 0:29:32decision. I shall be voting for that.Even if that is voting to prop
0:29:32 > 0:29:35up the government?It is not about propping up the government it is
0:29:35 > 0:29:40about implementing a decision of the People. The government has a
0:29:40 > 0:29:43majority on this. The idea that Anna Soubry is going to lead all these
0:29:43 > 0:29:48people into the labour lobbies is just fairy tales. But we will see on
0:29:48 > 0:29:51the night. The government will win comfortably and double figures on
0:29:51 > 0:29:55this issue.Frank Field, Stella Creasy, we will have to leave it
0:29:55 > 0:29:58there. Thank you very much.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01The local elections in May will see many seats in the big metropolitan
0:30:01 > 0:30:04councils in England up for grabs, and the Conservatives may need
0:30:04 > 0:30:06to brace for a difficult night.
0:30:06 > 0:30:07A YouGov poll predicts Labour could seize several
0:30:07 > 0:30:09Conservative councils in London, including one the Tories
0:30:09 > 0:30:10have never lost before.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14Emma Vardy looks ahead.
0:30:14 > 0:30:18Not since the swinging '60s has anyone done better in local
0:30:18 > 0:30:21elections than Labour could be about to.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24A recent YouGov poll is predicting Labour will sweep London
0:30:24 > 0:30:32with the best results for any party since 1968.
0:30:34 > 0:30:38One of the most enduring Tory strongholds is here.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41To this day, Westminster, with its largely affluent
0:30:41 > 0:30:44population of voters, has never had a Labour-run
0:30:44 > 0:30:50authority, but if the poll is to be believed, that could now change.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54This council has been Conservative-controlled ever
0:30:54 > 0:30:58since the borough was created in the 1960s.
0:30:58 > 0:31:02But if the swing was big enough to turn this council red,
0:31:02 > 0:31:04that would top off a very good night for Labour.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07The Conservatives are at position where they could potentially
0:31:07 > 0:31:12be left with just one, maybe two councils in all of London.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15I think that would be a bad night for the Conservatives,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18but it is possible.
0:31:18 > 0:31:22They are having to fight to hang on almost everywhere
0:31:22 > 0:31:23they still have representation.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26But away from London, it could be a different story.
0:31:26 > 0:31:31Birmingham City Council has been controlled by Labour since 2012.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35They hold around two-thirds of the seats here, but there
0:31:35 > 0:31:39is anger over a bin dispute that lasted for months and left tons
0:31:39 > 0:31:41of rubbish on the streets uncollected, and resentment over
0:31:41 > 0:31:45budget cuts that are affecting local services.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48It does not matter who is in because there is nothing between them,
0:31:48 > 0:31:51that is the problem, because Birmingham is basically
0:31:51 > 0:31:54screwed by central government, who have reduced all of our grants.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57There has been a lot of problems with the bin collections.
0:31:57 > 0:31:58Yes, there have.
0:31:58 > 0:31:59Oh, yes.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01The Labour run council got the blame for that?
0:32:01 > 0:32:03Yes, I would say so.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05The more it dragged on, certainly, yes.
0:32:05 > 0:32:09This will be the first all-out election for Birmingham City Council
0:32:09 > 0:32:12since boundary changes, so there are 101 seats
0:32:12 > 0:32:16here all up for grabs.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19It is a place Labour should do well, but could the party be
0:32:19 > 0:32:20punished over those bins?
0:32:20 > 0:32:23Back in the summer, of course, we had the bin strike.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26It was not the city's greatest moment in time.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29When I became leader of the council, I pledged we would resolve that
0:32:29 > 0:32:30dispute, which we have now done.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33We, the Labour Party here in Birmingham, are committed
0:32:33 > 0:32:35to maintaining weekly bin collections going forward
0:32:35 > 0:32:38for the next four years, a commitment I've yet to hear
0:32:38 > 0:32:42from either of the other two parties.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Here in Birmingham, the council tax has gone up over 20% in seven years,
0:32:46 > 0:32:48but services have gone down, and people are seeing rubbish
0:32:48 > 0:32:50left on their streets, and they feel it is time
0:32:50 > 0:32:51for a change.
0:32:51 > 0:32:53There are plenty of other places who survive
0:32:53 > 0:32:54on fortnightly bin collections.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56With council budgets being constrained, is that
0:32:56 > 0:32:59not a sensible option?
0:32:59 > 0:33:01In Birmingham, we are absolutely clear that weekly bin
0:33:01 > 0:33:02collections need to remain.
0:33:02 > 0:33:08Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats and the Greens remain much
0:33:08 > 0:33:10stronger in local government than they are in Parliament,
0:33:10 > 0:33:12and in May, they will be fighting to increase
0:33:12 > 0:33:15their local authority presence.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19While Ukip are likely to continue to struggle to reverse
0:33:19 > 0:33:22the party's decline.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24But if the story of the night is the biggest Labour
0:33:24 > 0:33:26success since the '60s, any high-profile defeats in Tory
0:33:26 > 0:33:30strongholds could start to make some Conservative MPs worry
0:33:30 > 0:33:34about their constituencies ahead of the next general election.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38Steve, Kate and Iain are still with me.
0:33:38 > 0:33:43Let's pick up on the local elections. Kate, should Theresa May
0:33:43 > 0:33:48be deeply worried about this, what she expected a bad night and what
0:33:48 > 0:33:52might the consequences be?No doubt she will be worried but my favourite
0:33:52 > 0:33:55thing is Everything is underlined by the fact people care more about
0:33:55 > 0:33:58things than other things that is what politics comes down to, at the
0:33:58 > 0:34:02end of the day. I think Theresa May will be worried. -- it comes down
0:34:02 > 0:34:09bins. It is a battle ground for those parties. Places like Haringey,
0:34:09 > 0:34:13if you see what has happened to Labour in those areas, and how
0:34:13 > 0:34:16powerful momentum and the left have become in local politics, you see
0:34:16 > 0:34:21how much it matters to Labour. I think the Tories will be worried,
0:34:21 > 0:34:25particularly about London. As the BT said, Labour expect to do quite well
0:34:25 > 0:34:29and that is not going to look very good. Brandon Lewis, the new
0:34:29 > 0:34:34chairman of the party, said last week we expect big losses in London.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37He is setting that already. I think the Tory party is worried. In areas
0:34:37 > 0:34:41like Birmingham and other areas around the country, Brexit is likely
0:34:41 > 0:34:44to be important and I think that's why it comes back to labour being
0:34:44 > 0:34:48modelled on Brexit. People vote with their feet. If the Tories can win
0:34:48 > 0:34:51back some seats like burning in other places, it might not be a
0:34:51 > 0:34:56massive all-out loss lost them on the night.Expectation management
0:34:56 > 0:35:02already being Manoj
0:35:02 > 0:35:04already being Manoj -- being managed. Actual voters telling us
0:35:04 > 0:35:07what they think. Did they have consequences that Parliamentary
0:35:07 > 0:35:13politics?They could do this time. It reminds me, Steve will remember
0:35:13 > 0:35:17this, 1990 when the Tories did disastrously in local elections.
0:35:17 > 0:35:25Kenneth Baker went out on the streets and exempted we kept once
0:35:25 > 0:35:29loved. I don't think that will happen this time. Kate is right,
0:35:29 > 0:35:33Brandon Lewis, the Tory party chairman has already started to
0:35:33 > 0:35:39manage expectations. He generally believe they are in for a drubbing,
0:35:39 > 0:35:45particularly in London. These will last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip
0:35:45 > 0:35:49are doing well. In the last year, Ukip's vote has virtually
0:35:49 > 0:35:52disappeared. So all three other parties, their votes have gone up in
0:35:52 > 0:35:56by-elections. It depends where that vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats
0:35:56 > 0:36:02be able to hold onto the seats they won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal
0:36:02 > 0:36:06Democrats be able to hold onto the six? I think it will be a drumming
0:36:06 > 0:36:13but I think it will be patchy. Andy Street has been reasonably popular
0:36:13 > 0:36:17in the West Midlands. If they do that they will have a 1990 situation
0:36:17 > 0:36:20and that is all they will talk about.Even if they lose
0:36:20 > 0:36:26Westminster?Probably.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54will be confirmed. Theresa May has been in a fragile position since the
0:36:54 > 0:36:58general election and that will be confirmed. But by that point Brexit
0:36:58 > 0:37:02will be reaching or coming close to one of its several climactic son I
0:37:02 > 0:37:07think that will shape the national picture. The local elections will be
0:37:07 > 0:37:11really important for local government, who inherit the
0:37:11 > 0:37:16nightmarish budget. It won't change the national picture very much.Iain
0:37:16 > 0:37:21said Ukip's vote has been falling and they have had their troubles
0:37:21 > 0:37:25recently as well. Important to see where their vote goes and confirms
0:37:25 > 0:37:31we are moving back to two party politics maybe?I think it does
0:37:31 > 0:37:32nationally but locally it's a different picture because the Ukip
0:37:32 > 0:37:36vote tends to go on all kinds of directions. It doesn't necessarily
0:37:36 > 0:37:41go where you think it will. So the Liberal Democrats and the Greens do
0:37:41 > 0:37:43quite well at local elections, whereas nationally they don't do
0:37:43 > 0:37:48very well at all. I think sometimes you do see people who would vote for
0:37:48 > 0:37:51any other party going for any other party and not necessarily the Tories
0:37:51 > 0:37:58and Labour. I think it comes down to how much this comes down to Brexit.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Do people care more about Brexit or bins question mark in areas like
0:38:01 > 0:38:06London, I think Brexit and bigger national issues will have a bearing.
0:38:06 > 0:38:13Brexit one way or another will help with your bins?London has become a
0:38:13 > 0:38:19Labour city. Huge capital city with millions and millions has become a
0:38:19 > 0:38:22Labour stronghold. That is significant for all kinds of
0:38:22 > 0:38:28reasons. It has also become as strong as it used to be in Scotland.
0:38:28 > 0:38:33Even in 2010 in the general election, London voted Labour by a
0:38:33 > 0:38:36wide margin. That is quite a significant development.We need to
0:38:36 > 0:38:40leave it there just now, coming back to you later in the programme.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43It's coming up to 11.40, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:43 > 0:38:49Still to come...
0:38:49 > 0:38:52Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53Coming up on the programme...
0:38:53 > 0:38:55University lecturers strike over threats to their pensions.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58As more walk-outs loom, I'll be speaking to Scotland's
0:38:58 > 0:39:03Higher Education Minister.
0:39:03 > 0:39:04A Chief Constable says Police Scotland prevented
0:39:04 > 0:39:09him from carrying out a full-scale investigation.
0:39:09 > 0:39:15I think there was a lack of openness in certain parts of the organisation
0:39:15 > 0:39:20and remains so.
0:39:20 > 0:39:20and remain so.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23And Scotland's role in Brexit - after another round of talks is it
0:39:23 > 0:39:27time the PM and the FM got involved?
0:39:27 > 0:39:30University lecturers have begun a 14-day walk-out in a row
0:39:30 > 0:39:32over their pensions.
0:39:32 > 0:39:33It's another illustration of the financial pressures
0:39:33 > 0:39:35on higher education, coming in the same week
0:39:35 > 0:39:38the Prime Minister launched a year-long review of tuition fees
0:39:38 > 0:39:39and university funding in England.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41Here in Scotland, of course, opposition to tuition fees
0:39:41 > 0:39:49has become something of an article of faith.
0:39:51 > 0:39:52The reality, however, is complicated,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54with critics suggesting the current policy has failed to substantially
0:39:54 > 0:39:56increase the number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59In a moment I'll be speaking to the minister responsible
0:39:59 > 0:40:02for higher education, but first here's Graham Stewart.
0:40:02 > 0:40:07This is an official UCU picket line. We are asking people not to cross.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11They came out to protect their pensions, not just for themselves,
0:40:11 > 0:40:15they insist, but to ensure the profession continues to attract the
0:40:15 > 0:40:20best talent and students get the highest quality education.The
0:40:20 > 0:40:24employers are pushing through really Draconian changes to the pension
0:40:24 > 0:40:26scheme, which take guaranteed pension benefits in retirement away
0:40:26 > 0:40:31from them, and leave their pension and retirement to the whims of the
0:40:31 > 0:40:39market. It could mean a lecturer could
0:40:39 > 0:40:42could lose up to £10,000 a year once they have retired.Universities UK
0:40:42 > 0:40:44which represents the employers call the action disappointing. They say
0:40:44 > 0:40:48the pension scheme has a deficit of £6 billion, and change is essential.
0:40:48 > 0:40:54The union says this 14 day walk-out will affect 145,000 students. There
0:40:54 > 0:40:57is plenty of support among the lecturers, but what do the students
0:40:57 > 0:41:03think?
0:41:03 > 0:41:09think?The University of Glasgow is one of Scotland's throw-mac ancient
0:41:09 > 0:41:13universities...I am a first-year veterinary student. It is their
0:41:13 > 0:41:16well-being, their pension fund, from what I understand, and if they feel
0:41:16 > 0:41:21they are being wronged I support them in that.I am studying teaching
0:41:21 > 0:41:24at the University of Glasgow. It is quite irritating but we understand
0:41:24 > 0:41:31that they need to be paid well and supported.I studied biomedical
0:41:31 > 0:41:35engineering. I don't really agree with it, to be honest. I've liked
0:41:35 > 0:41:39everyone should be affected by the recession and the austerity that is
0:41:39 > 0:41:45happening. People at uni should not be excluded from that.Unlike their
0:41:45 > 0:41:46counterparts in England Scottish students will not be looking for
0:41:46 > 0:41:51refunds on their tuition fees in this dispute, because students here
0:41:51 > 0:41:56haven't paid them since the Labour and Lib Dem coalition scrap them in
0:41:56 > 0:42:012002, replacing the system with the graduate endowment. Then, in 2008,
0:42:01 > 0:42:10the SNP finally abolished the graduate endowment essentially
0:42:14 > 0:42:16making tuition free. The former First Minister even had his
0:42:16 > 0:42:17opposition to these immortalised in storm, though Herriot Watt
0:42:17 > 0:42:19University seems strangely bashful about it, refusing us permission to
0:42:19 > 0:42:22film this weekend. They are not the only ones to find the issue of
0:42:22 > 0:42:27student debt can prove controversial.How different is the
0:42:27 > 0:42:30debate in Scotland?Totally different because what he is coming
0:42:30 > 0:42:33up against is the reality that students are leaving university in
0:42:33 > 0:42:38England with a massive debt burden, facing huge house prices and
0:42:38 > 0:42:41stagnant wages under the Tories. In Scotland we don't have university
0:42:41 > 0:42:45tuition fees so students are not facing a challenge. Students leave
0:42:45 > 0:42:52university with their degree without a huge debt...That,, alleging
0:42:52 > 0:42:54Scottish students leave without huge debts, was judged by the journalism
0:42:54 > 0:42:58website the Ferret to be mostly false. On the basis that students
0:42:58 > 0:43:04will for still have to mostly cover their own living expenses. She says
0:43:04 > 0:43:08the article claimed she was a liar and was therefore defamatory. The
0:43:08 > 0:43:14average at a debt owed by graduates from the class of 2017 is £11,740,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18significantly lower than other parts of the UK, but even that is not
0:43:18 > 0:43:21necessarily the full picture.The repayment system is matter as well
0:43:21 > 0:43:26so we know a lot of the debt in England will never be repaid. In
0:43:26 > 0:43:30Scotland, because it is law to start with, and because we collect debt in
0:43:30 > 0:43:33a different way, so we get more out of people's earnings were quickly,
0:43:33 > 0:43:37it is much more likely if you have a £25,000 debt in Scotland you will
0:43:37 > 0:43:42pay off the whole thing, that if you have a £50,000 debt in England.That
0:43:42 > 0:43:46debt could be more likely to the shoulders of shoulders of some of
0:43:46 > 0:43:50the poorest students.What the SNP have done is to slash the amount
0:43:50 > 0:43:53available for grants and bursaries by about 35% and that money
0:43:53 > 0:43:58previously went to students from low-income backgrounds. Now as a
0:43:58 > 0:44:01consequence of that decision and others made by the Scottish
0:44:01 > 0:44:04Government these students now we've university significantly more
0:44:04 > 0:44:10in-depth than their more affluent contemporaries.A recent report for
0:44:10 > 0:44:13the Scottish Government recommended all students receive an income of
0:44:13 > 0:44:16just over £8,000 per year. The Government is still to it's
0:44:16 > 0:44:24considered response.Goodbye for me. Goodbye.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26Well, with me now is the Scottish Government's
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Higher Education Minister, Shirley-Anne Somerville.
0:44:28 > 0:44:34We will talk about universities in a moment, but first, Brexit. There is
0:44:34 > 0:44:41an article by David Lidington, in effect Theresa May's deputy, in the
0:44:41 > 0:44:45Telegraph today. Basically he accuses the Scottish Government of
0:44:45 > 0:44:51putting Britain in a situation where it "Could be struggling to make its
0:44:51 > 0:44:54way in a new world outside the EU because of its insistence on having
0:44:54 > 0:45:01everything from Europe devolved." As a representative of the Scottish
0:45:01 > 0:45:04Government, what is your response? The Scottish Government is not
0:45:04 > 0:45:08against common agreement in principle but they do have to be in
0:45:08 > 0:45:13Scotland's interests, so this is an issue about power is being
0:45:13 > 0:45:16repatriated from Europe back to the Scottish Parliament, coming to the
0:45:16 > 0:45:19Scottish Parliament and not getting stuck in Westminster. Surely, it
0:45:19 > 0:45:23should be the right thing to do to bring those powers to the Scottish
0:45:23 > 0:45:26Parliament, to let the Parliament decide what is right for Scotland
0:45:26 > 0:45:31and what...His argument is if you bring back powers to Scotland on
0:45:31 > 0:45:36things like, all the things I have mentioned, regulations on bleach and
0:45:36 > 0:45:41paints, or on standards, that when Britain is negotiating trade
0:45:41 > 0:45:44agreements with third-party countries, unless there is a single
0:45:44 > 0:45:48UK market, unless it is known to those third parties, it could stop
0:45:48 > 0:45:52these trade agreements going ahead. That is the point he is making.The
0:45:52 > 0:45:55Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament will not stand in the way
0:45:55 > 0:45:58of a common-sense approach. As I said right at the beginning we are
0:45:58 > 0:46:02not against common agreement in principle, but by any other
0:46:02 > 0:46:07standards this is about a power grab from Westminster. We are asking for
0:46:07 > 0:46:10the powers being repaid created from Europe to come to the Scottish
0:46:10 > 0:46:15Parliament, and this is not an issue for one party but it is an issue for
0:46:15 > 0:46:18the parliament and there has been cross-party agreement that they
0:46:18 > 0:46:24should be looked at very carefully -- the powers being repatriated from
0:46:24 > 0:46:29Europe.Is it your view that if these common frameworks are put into
0:46:29 > 0:46:33place they should be approved by the Scottish Parliament? They shouldn't
0:46:33 > 0:46:37just be negotiated between Government ministers? They should
0:46:37 > 0:46:41act to be approved by the Scottish Parliament.We are looking at a
0:46:41 > 0:46:44number of powers coming back from Europe, they should come back to the
0:46:44 > 0:46:47Scottish Parliament for the Scottish Parliament to decide what is right
0:46:47 > 0:46:51for Scotland. I don't think that is too much to ask.Sure, but the
0:46:51 > 0:46:56crucial point is if this argument on common frameworks, you would like
0:46:56 > 0:47:00them to be approved by the Scottish Parliament rather than just either
0:47:00 > 0:47:04unilaterally decided by Westminster or just dawned with backroom
0:47:04 > 0:47:09negotiations.I don't think we want to see backroom negotiations or
0:47:09 > 0:47:11anything decided simply by Westminster. There are many powers
0:47:11 > 0:47:15that will be coming back to Scotland, that should be coming back
0:47:15 > 0:47:19to Scotland. The important thing is the Scottish Parliament has an
0:47:19 > 0:47:23understanding about what powers the going to get back. We hear lots of
0:47:23 > 0:47:27kind words, you know, from Westminster sometimes. They have
0:47:27 > 0:47:30obviously now decided to play a heavy hand but we are not seeing any
0:47:30 > 0:47:33detail about how this will impact on the powers that should be coming
0:47:33 > 0:47:37back to Scotland and until we see that it is a game of smoke and
0:47:37 > 0:47:41mirrors, unfortunately, from Westminster. It back to university
0:47:41 > 0:47:46strike. Graham said in the film that Scottish tunes won't be demanding
0:47:46 > 0:47:49compensation because they don't pay tuition fees but there are
0:47:49 > 0:47:56international students in
0:47:57 > 0:47:59international students in Scotland -- brake-mac onto the university
0:47:59 > 0:48:01straight. There are international students who want to be compensated.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03People outside the EU are paying £60,000 a year plus two study in
0:48:03 > 0:48:06Scotland, and they see the lecturers are to be on strike -- paying
0:48:06 > 0:48:12£16,000 per year plus to study. They say that money is helping fund the
0:48:12 > 0:48:15no tuition fees policies, so is there a case for their compensation?
0:48:15 > 0:48:18Delight it is very disappointing to see we have got to the point where
0:48:18 > 0:48:23you see you have come out on strike --yes, it is very disappointing to
0:48:23 > 0:48:27see that we have got to the point. Where the UCU have come out on
0:48:27 > 0:48:34strike. This is not in the best interests of our universities are
0:48:34 > 0:48:37the lecturers, and most particularly the students, so I would want to see
0:48:37 > 0:48:40them getting back round the table for meaningful negotiations next
0:48:40 > 0:48:43week.What about the issue of compensation? To the students have a
0:48:43 > 0:48:47case?This is something very different in Scotland, as you have
0:48:47 > 0:48:52said. Our student stored page version fees. We have our two days
0:48:52 > 0:48:55of strikes, both sides look to go round the table next week although
0:48:55 > 0:48:59it is with some preconditions, unfortunately, from the University
0:48:59 > 0:49:03side. Let's see what comes from that.OK, but even if something
0:49:03 > 0:49:07comes from that some of the students will say, hang on, there have
0:49:07 > 0:49:11already been strikes and we should be compensated.I appreciate some
0:49:11 > 0:49:14students will be frustrated from that but we are seeing talks next
0:49:14 > 0:49:18week.The talks will not be on compensation but on the substance of
0:49:18 > 0:49:21the issues in the dispute. The students are saying, hang on, quite
0:49:21 > 0:49:25apart from the nature of the dispute which is essentially about pensions,
0:49:25 > 0:49:31good luck to them, but we have already lost time, and we have paid
0:49:31 > 0:49:34for the time we have lost, and we should be compensated.There is some
0:49:34 > 0:49:39debate about whether there will be on the substantive issue of the
0:49:39 > 0:49:42pensions next week and that is why I am calling for meaningful or but
0:49:42 > 0:49:45certainly I will be asking to speak to the principles and to the
0:49:45 > 0:49:48University Scotland next week. The breakdown further because we do need
0:49:48 > 0:49:53to discuss very seriously the impact it has had on students.So you might
0:49:53 > 0:49:56consider competition?I will speak to the rest is next week to raise my
0:49:56 > 0:49:59concern about what has been happening with students. We have a
0:49:59 > 0:50:07different situation in Scotland, only affecting of course
0:50:08 > 0:50:09only affecting of course some of universities, not all.What would
0:50:09 > 0:50:12you say to an international student who says, hang on a minute, you and
0:50:12 > 0:50:14your Government encouraged me to come here, and now you won't even
0:50:14 > 0:50:19say who will discuss the issue of compensation? -- you would even say
0:50:19 > 0:50:22that you will. ItI don't think it is helpful for Government ministers
0:50:22 > 0:50:26to come on at the weekend before the talks and to raise the stakes still
0:50:26 > 0:50:32further. I have met with the unions, I will meet with the principles, if
0:50:32 > 0:50:36required, if. Next week breakdown, and let's try to do this in an
0:50:36 > 0:50:43meaningful fashion to encourage them to get the resolution.
0:50:43 > 0:50:50Do you back the strikers? There are concerns from the UC you the trade
0:50:50 > 0:50:54union about what is happening to their pensions. It is for the
0:50:54 > 0:51:00universities to go through in detail. I think it is concerning
0:51:00 > 0:51:06that the trade union saying that there isn't a pension deficit. The
0:51:06 > 0:51:09universities are saying there is a deficit. If we have a disagreement
0:51:09 > 0:51:18about the figures on a UK level, we need to...
0:51:18 > 0:51:21need to... Is there an actual pension deficit there. If there is
0:51:21 > 0:51:25no pension deficit then it is very hard for universities to say it
0:51:25 > 0:51:34changes need to be made.If you cut their wages and conditions, it
0:51:34 > 0:51:41undermines the abilities. That has been echoed by Jeremy Corbyn. They
0:51:41 > 0:51:45are backing the strike but you are not.I met with the unions last week
0:51:45 > 0:51:50and they described a very constructive meeting. We have very
0:51:50 > 0:51:54good relationships with the main trade union in Scotland. We have
0:51:54 > 0:51:58said that the discussions with myself and the government have been
0:51:58 > 0:52:04constructive and we will encourage that to continue.You have said that
0:52:04 > 0:52:11students from European Union countries who start their
0:52:12 > 0:52:16countries who start their courses in 2019 will not pay fees. Is that just
0:52:16 > 0:52:20for that year will continue.That will continue for the duration of
0:52:20 > 0:52:28their course.What if a student starting 2020?We will take that
0:52:28 > 0:52:31decision at a future date. We have taken the decision around the
0:52:31 > 0:52:38students for the year 2019 earlier than anywhere else in the UK in an
0:52:38 > 0:52:42attempt to give them some assurance. That is in time for the
0:52:42 > 0:52:49universities.But you don't know about after that?We don't know a
0:52:49 > 0:52:52lot about what is happening in Brexit, to be frank. We don't know
0:52:52 > 0:52:58if the students will actually have the right to remain in an
0:52:58 > 0:53:06immigration status. We're trying to encourage EU students to come. It is
0:53:06 > 0:53:10very difficult to continue to make policies.A lot of people in
0:53:10 > 0:53:14Scotland would say this is unfair. We are leaving the European Union.
0:53:14 > 0:53:22Why should EU students be able to come here and have no tuition fees?
0:53:22 > 0:53:30Students from England start on 9000 a year. We charge students from
0:53:30 > 0:53:36third-party countries something like 16,000 a year. You could almost
0:53:36 > 0:53:46have... You could invest that money in Scottish universities.We are
0:53:46 > 0:53:51looking -- working with universities. I will tell you why it
0:53:51 > 0:53:54is the right decision to make for the university students that will
0:53:54 > 0:53:59hopefully come in a couple of years' time. One of the aspects of Scottish
0:53:59 > 0:54:05education that makes it the best in the world is a diverse campus that
0:54:05 > 0:54:09we have. We want to encourage people to come from Europe and further
0:54:09 > 0:54:14afield to work, study and live after that.But not from England China
0:54:14 > 0:54:20would seem?It is a very important part to our commitment to the EU. It
0:54:20 > 0:54:27is required by DUP legislation. Which is why there is a difference.
0:54:27 > 0:54:33There will be a transition period in 2019. It is very difficult to make
0:54:33 > 0:54:36policies on Brexit because of the uncertainty that is coming from the
0:54:36 > 0:54:45UK. We will be in a transition period for two years. If that
0:54:45 > 0:54:49transition requires us to have some of the same in areas that we want to
0:54:49 > 0:54:56see, around Freeman City freedom of movement. We want to do this because
0:54:56 > 0:55:00it is the right thing to do to encourage students to come here.And
0:55:00 > 0:55:08you very much indeed. Two weeks ago we were examining the resignation of
0:55:08 > 0:55:14Phil Bromley as Chief Constable of the Scotland.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21A few days ago, the force was in the spotlight again
0:55:21 > 0:55:24following a series of stinging remarks about its "culture
0:55:24 > 0:55:26of secrecy" and "ineptitude" by the chief Constable of Durham,
0:55:26 > 0:55:27Michael Barton.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29He'd been called in after several officers investigating leaked
0:55:29 > 0:55:31information about the Emma Caldwell murder inquiry were found
0:55:31 > 0:55:33to have obtained data without judicial permission.
0:55:33 > 0:55:37But he told Holyrood's justice sub-committee that
0:55:37 > 0:55:40what he understood to be a full investigation was downgraded
0:55:40 > 0:55:43to an inquiry meaning he had only restricted access to documents
0:55:43 > 0:55:44and was unable to interview people under caution.
0:55:44 > 0:55:45Michael Barton joins me now.
0:55:45 > 0:55:54Good morning. You clearly thought there was a culture of secrecy in
0:55:54 > 0:55:59and around the Scotland. Did you mean by that?Please remember that I
0:55:59 > 0:56:05was asked by Phil Gormley to come in and do an independent investigation
0:56:05 > 0:56:09and that is what they'll and I thought was the deal. When I
0:56:09 > 0:56:13actually got into the bones of this and started working with the legal
0:56:13 > 0:56:16department and the professional standards department in police
0:56:16 > 0:56:20Scotland, they took a slightly different view. Firstly, they
0:56:20 > 0:56:26thought that I should just be doing an inquiry and in police Scotland
0:56:26 > 0:56:31that means I can interview the officers concerned. Which of course
0:56:31 > 0:56:36is severely hampers my dealings with those people, because if they are in
0:56:36 > 0:56:43jeopardy I wouldn't want to speak to them. The second thing is that in
0:56:43 > 0:56:47the legal department, they took a bizarre interpretation of the rules
0:56:47 > 0:56:55in my view. They described some conversations between senior
0:56:55 > 0:56:58officers as legally privileged, when there wasn't even a legal
0:56:58 > 0:57:01professional in the room. Thirdly, professional standards didn't want
0:57:01 > 0:57:06to give me the address of retired police officers because they said it
0:57:06 > 0:57:11was vetted by the Data Protection Act. I was a title that amused about
0:57:11 > 0:57:26how I was going to go and see them. You think it was an attitude? --
0:57:26 > 0:57:33ineptitude.I am not accusing the Scotland of ineptitude. They do
0:57:33 > 0:57:38fantastic work. 99.9% of the people in the Scotland should be patted on
0:57:38 > 0:57:42the back and applauded by their local communities. What I talked
0:57:42 > 0:57:48about in terms of ineptitude... This is the other issue will stop I
0:57:48 > 0:57:54talked about putting people in a sack and shaking them up. I meant
0:57:54 > 0:57:57that professional standards for legal people in police Scotland need
0:57:57 > 0:58:03to get their act together. Equally, everybody else who is involved in
0:58:03 > 0:58:06the way that investigations are conducted north of the border league
0:58:06 > 0:58:10to get together. Because the regulations themselves are really
0:58:10 > 0:58:17straightforward. For me, I had to be a higher rank, with the right
0:58:17 > 0:58:22experience and impartial and then I could do an investigation. Police
0:58:22 > 0:58:28Scotland interpreted that, as soon as I started asking questions in the
0:58:28 > 0:58:32inquiry phase, I could no longer be impartial in the investigation
0:58:32 > 0:58:37phase, which is preposterous. I do understand why police Scotland
0:58:37 > 0:58:42professional standards are a little bit risk averse here because I think
0:58:42 > 0:58:51they are facing six judicial reviews from the Federation, so what
0:58:51 > 0:59:00Northumberland police found was that whenever it please officer is being
0:59:00 > 0:59:04investigated north of the border, there is a good chance they will
0:59:04 > 0:59:12counter... What has happened is a culture of people being like this.
0:59:12 > 0:59:17What we should be doing is looking at these things impartially, finding
0:59:17 > 0:59:21out what lessons need to be learned, if somebody needs a sack on the
0:59:21 > 0:59:27wrist, sock them on the rest. At the moment the public are utterly
0:59:27 > 0:59:37perplexed.I am curious. You said you were bought in the late Mark
0:59:37 > 0:59:42brought in by Phil Gormley. He has now left. There were various
0:59:42 > 0:59:46allegations against him. None of them have been proven. The way the
0:59:46 > 0:59:53rules work is that those investigations will never come to a
0:59:53 > 1:00:02conclusion. There have been two chief constables who have left.
1:00:02 > 1:00:05chief constables who have left. Wind you look at the state of the
1:00:05 > 1:00:10Scotland and the fact that these people have had to go, as a senior
1:00:10 > 1:00:15police officer in England, would it make you hesitate about applying for
1:00:15 > 1:00:22a job here?I am not going to be applying for a job.But in general
1:00:22 > 1:00:27terms, do you think that is a risk that police officers in England
1:00:27 > 1:00:35think it will be a bit of a mess?I think that is a legitimate concern,
1:00:35 > 1:00:42but that is not my main concern. My main concern is that, because people
1:00:42 > 1:00:47are taking an overly legal approach to these things, these matters take
1:00:47 > 1:00:53years. The matter I was looking at started as a very simple situation
1:00:53 > 1:00:58in June...Your item meant is that it could have been sorted out
1:00:58 > 1:01:03quickly.That was my evidence to Parliament. I would have attempted
1:01:03 > 1:01:09to resolve it in June 2015. With a fair wind, I would have resolved
1:01:09 > 1:01:14this by the middle of July. For people in jeopardy would have been
1:01:14 > 1:01:19brought in, I would have personally apologised and offered recompense
1:01:19 > 1:01:26and we would have moved on.Forget the inquiry. Your general
1:01:26 > 1:01:33impressions? It is obviously very controversial. The equivalent for
1:01:33 > 1:01:41you is that you had to merge with Northumbria and Manchester, every
1:01:41 > 1:01:43police force in the North of England. Would you be comfortable
1:01:43 > 1:01:49with that do you think it is better...? Durham is a reasonably
1:01:49 > 1:02:02small force.We are the 32nd biggest force in England. The experience we
1:02:02 > 1:02:07have of creating a national police force is unique in the UK and I just
1:02:07 > 1:02:13think that it has been really tough for people in Scotland. I'm in touch
1:02:13 > 1:02:23with police officers and there is no doubt that front line cops from the
1:02:23 > 1:02:27eight constituent forces and is happy about working properly
1:02:27 > 1:02:33Scotland. I actually understand the argument for economies of scale. My
1:02:33 > 1:02:40personal opinion is that policing is very local. I think it should be a
1:02:40 > 1:02:45partnership with locals and local people should be really confident
1:02:45 > 1:02:50that they understand who they achieved Constable is and they have
1:02:50 > 1:02:53got that relationship. If I were Chief Constable of the North of
1:02:53 > 1:02:59England, it would be jolly difficult for me to do my job.Thank you very
1:02:59 > 1:03:07much for joining us. There is still no agreement over Brexit.
1:03:07 > 1:03:09There's still no agreement over Brexit between the UK
1:03:09 > 1:03:11and Scottish governments, but both came out of the latest
1:03:11 > 1:03:13round of talks saying progress had been made.
1:03:13 > 1:03:15While Scotland's Brexit Minister Michael Russell underlined the need
1:03:15 > 1:03:18to give parliament here authority over powers that'll eventually be
1:03:18 > 1:03:19returned from Brussels, Scottish Secretary David Mundell
1:03:19 > 1:03:22said he was hopeful a deal could be reached.
1:03:22 > 1:03:24I'm joined now by SNP MSP Ash Denham and Scottish
1:03:24 > 1:03:28Conservative MSP Miles Briggs.
1:03:28 > 1:03:33Ash Denham, I am dubious as to what you made of what David Lidington had
1:03:33 > 1:03:41to say.Clearly some progress has been made last week at the... My
1:03:41 > 1:03:45personal view about where we are at the moment is that the UK Government
1:03:45 > 1:03:49still seems to be sleepwalking towards a constitutional crisis and
1:03:49 > 1:03:55not enough progress has been made. They need to come out this morning.
1:03:55 > 1:03:59I have seen some reports saying that the SNP will potentially damage some
1:03:59 > 1:04:03trade deals going forward. First of all, that is completely wrong and
1:04:03 > 1:04:07second of all, that is the signs of a weak government that are trying to
1:04:07 > 1:04:12blow up is smoke screen because they are unable to come to the table with
1:04:12 > 1:04:16serious proposals to satisfy the Scottish Government. It is unanimous
1:04:16 > 1:04:23across Parliament. We have a Scottish committee, unanimous across
1:04:23 > 1:04:30all the parties, saying that the BLEEP in must be resolved. They need
1:04:30 > 1:04:34to show some leadership. They need to engage constructively and try to
1:04:34 > 1:04:46solve this impasse.I...There are specific proposals. Cost of living
1:04:46 > 1:04:49would be change. Everything will come back to Scotland but the
1:04:49 > 1:04:54British woman would ask the Scottish Government not to change rules in
1:04:54 > 1:04:57certain areas until there were negotiations. Is that your
1:04:57 > 1:05:03understanding?Yes. This is where we are working to find a compromise. It
1:05:03 > 1:05:10is important that we have this conversation and are able to seek
1:05:10 > 1:05:16and move forward a complex issue. In terms of David Lidington's comments,
1:05:16 > 1:05:21the UK single market is worth four times that of the EU one. It is
1:05:21 > 1:05:24vital for Scottish businesses that we don't have a differentiation
1:05:24 > 1:05:31across the single market.What is actually happening? Presumably, the
1:05:31 > 1:05:36argument against what you are proposing is that it kicks it one
1:05:36 > 1:05:40stage back because the question is, who decides on which areas the
1:05:40 > 1:05:47Scottish Government would then agree not to change the rules and who then
1:05:47 > 1:05:53decides on the common framework? Should it be negotiations or should
1:05:53 > 1:05:56the Scottish Parliament have the right to vote on what areas are
1:05:56 > 1:06:04common?Clause 11 will provide that opportunity. We would like to see
1:06:04 > 1:06:10those powers come back to Holyrood to strengthening the Scottish
1:06:10 > 1:06:13Parliament. There are cross-border issues which we don't have agreement
1:06:13 > 1:06:21on yet. Both governments are looking towards where these powers are going
1:06:21 > 1:06:24to have a common-sense approach. It is something we should all be
1:06:24 > 1:06:27working towards. Governments and ministers are working towards that.
1:06:27 > 1:06:33We can move both countries forward. This idea that the Scottish
1:06:33 > 1:06:37Government will get back powers but not use them to change things, is
1:06:37 > 1:06:46that unreasonable? The point about David Linton is that if we start
1:06:46 > 1:06:49changing trade standards on certain products and Britain is negotiating
1:06:49 > 1:06:58a trade deal, the British government needs to know that those stab and --
1:06:58 > 1:07:05standards are common.The Scottish Government have been clear about
1:07:05 > 1:07:10this right from the start. Whether businesses seek to have it common
1:07:10 > 1:07:13framework it is agreed with the Scottish Parliament. It has to be
1:07:13 > 1:07:20agreed. We are saying that at the moment the level of involvement on
1:07:20 > 1:07:28the Scottish Parliament hasn't been enough. If you look at examples...
1:07:29 > 1:07:35Miles Briggs said no, they have agreed to change clause 11.That is
1:07:35 > 1:07:41not what they are saying. That is not what they said last week. At the
1:07:41 > 1:07:45moment the proposals that have been put forward fall far short of that.
1:07:45 > 1:07:52It is still undercutting devolution. It is still a position where there
1:07:52 > 1:07:59would be vetoes or imposition on top of another layer above the Scottish
1:07:59 > 1:08:04Parliament. It is undermining devolution. Things that are
1:08:04 > 1:08:06currently devolved was the controlled by the Scottish
1:08:06 > 1:08:15Parliament.We seem to have a disagreement on the facts. Miles
1:08:15 > 1:08:19Briggs, is what Ash Denham has said, is that what your understanding is?
1:08:19 > 1:08:33No. The language... We are trying to work this out to make sure it that
1:08:33 > 1:08:40as the EQ leaves the European union, we will have an advantage as an
1:08:40 > 1:08:49economy.Thank you both very much.
1:08:49 > 1:08:50We will have to leave it there.
1:08:50 > 1:08:53It's time to look back on what's happened this week
1:08:53 > 1:08:55and what's coming up.
1:08:55 > 1:09:04I'm joined now by Hamish McDonald and Shona Craven. There is a
1:09:04 > 1:09:08disagreement, is in there? Well, I'm not sure there's a disagreement, but
1:09:08 > 1:09:13clearly some deal has been proposed, or done. It's just the details. They
1:09:13 > 1:09:18seem to be disagreeing about what should happen but also on what the
1:09:18 > 1:09:22details actually are?My impression is what the UK Government has put on
1:09:22 > 1:09:28the table is that all the powers will go back to Hollywood but that
1:09:28 > 1:09:35Westminster retains a veto on up to 25 of them -- they will go back to
1:09:35 > 1:09:42Holyrood. And they retained a veto until that is good place. -- until
1:09:42 > 1:09:47that is put in place. If this works for England, Ireland, the whole lot,
1:09:47 > 1:09:50it has to be done originating in London because London is the only
1:09:50 > 1:09:55place that can see properly or the needs of the UK. The Scottish
1:09:55 > 1:09:59Government has a fair point, in saying, firstly, this is going over
1:09:59 > 1:10:01devolution because of the devolutionary powers, but also where
1:10:01 > 1:10:04does that leave the Scottish Government and the Scottish
1:10:04 > 1:10:08Parliament when it comes to things like trade deals?It is a matter of
1:10:08 > 1:10:12trust?Yes, and I think there is definitely an argument to be made.
1:10:12 > 1:10:16If you see we are giving the powers are shifting them to Holyrood but we
1:10:16 > 1:10:19will tell you how to use them, I'm not quite sure that amounts to
1:10:19 > 1:10:24having a power if you are then told...One version was that the
1:10:24 > 1:10:30powers would go to Scotland, but there would be an agreement that
1:10:30 > 1:10:34they should not be altered, let's say, an trading standards, until
1:10:34 > 1:10:40what was going to be part of a common framework was sorted out.
1:10:40 > 1:10:44Yes?Yes, that is how it seems to me.Would it be an agreement? The
1:10:44 > 1:10:48point Ash Denham was making. Something agreed or something
1:10:48 > 1:10:50decided by Westminster, then the Scottish Government are told, you
1:10:50 > 1:10:55have to agree with this.Yes, hang on, doesn't mean the Scottish
1:10:55 > 1:10:58Parliament has to agree on the common framework? Does the British
1:10:58 > 1:11:03Parliament have to? How is this decided?My feeling is that both
1:11:03 > 1:11:07sides are not terribly far apart. They have actually come quite a long
1:11:07 > 1:11:11way, and that last little inch is proving difficult. As you say, it is
1:11:11 > 1:11:15a question of trust. I don't think the UK Government is going out of
1:11:15 > 1:11:19its way through, you know, say to the Scottish Government, no, we will
1:11:19 > 1:11:21turn you over on this or that, but it appears to be the way the
1:11:21 > 1:11:24Scottish Government views it. They think London will turn them over and
1:11:24 > 1:11:32it is not the case.But can't you see why? Given the way they framed
1:11:32 > 1:11:36clause 11 in the first place, which arguably seemed to ride roughshod
1:11:36 > 1:11:38over the Scottish Government?Of course there is a lack of trust but
1:11:38 > 1:11:43I would also look cynically on the Sunday Telegraph's headline, Brexit,
1:11:43 > 1:11:47trade deals could be ruined by the SNP. Wouldn't that be convenient, if
1:11:47 > 1:11:50the reason they were there and was because of the SNP and not because
1:11:50 > 1:11:54the whole Brexit thing is unworkable, because of Northern
1:11:54 > 1:11:58Ireland etc? Wouldn't it be convenient if Scotland was the
1:11:58 > 1:12:04problem?The other big Brexit
1:12:10 > 1:12:12move is Starmer was talking to Andrew Marr this morning. There have
1:12:12 > 1:12:15been hits, actual on this programme a few weeks ago, Richard Leonard
1:12:15 > 1:12:17said he would favour a customs union and that now seems to be Labour
1:12:17 > 1:12:19policy.In Scotland, what is happening is Richard Leonard is
1:12:19 > 1:12:22being pushed by elements within the Scottish Labour Party to take a
1:12:22 > 1:12:24softer approach to Brexit. I think Richard Leonard is instinctively
1:12:24 > 1:12:28more hostile to a soft Brexit...But the significance of what Keir
1:12:28 > 1:12:34Starmer is saying is that the, I mean, in Westminster, if Labour say
1:12:34 > 1:12:40they want to stay a customs union, they may well be able to force that
1:12:40 > 1:12:43through parliament?They may well be one of the reasons they are doing
1:12:43 > 1:12:47this I think is that they are fed by not embracing a more Remain approach
1:12:47 > 1:12:51they are losing a lot of those young voters that they were so pleased to
1:12:51 > 1:12:54get at the last election, who are desperate to have as closer
1:12:54 > 1:12:57relationship with Europe as they possibly can.But it does change the
1:12:57 > 1:13:08arithmetic, doesn't it, Ash? If Labour comes round to staying in the
1:13:08 > 1:13:13single market -- doesn't it, Shona? SNP would back him, the Lib Dems,
1:13:13 > 1:13:17certainly, they could well... It could well be enough to actually
1:13:17 > 1:13:21stop Theresa May in her tracks?It could be, a shimmering Theresa May
1:13:21 > 1:13:24actually wants... We still don't really know what she actually wants.
1:13:24 > 1:13:27She has said we will leave the customs union, she has been clear
1:13:27 > 1:13:32about that right from the start.And not necessarily sure I trust
1:13:32 > 1:13:35anything she has said. This is all a game of strategy and looking like
1:13:35 > 1:13:39you're trying to do what the voters what even if that might not happen.
1:13:39 > 1:13:41We will have to leave it there. Thank you both very much.
1:13:41 > 1:13:43That's all from the us this week.
1:13:43 > 1:13:51I'll be back at the same time next week.