11/03/2018

0:00:31 > 0:00:32Morning, everyone.

0:00:32 > 0:00:35I'm Sarah Smith and this is the Sunday Politics.

0:00:35 > 0:00:38I'll be bringing you up to speed on all the political

0:00:38 > 0:00:40comings and goings in Westminster and beyond.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43Coming up in today's programme.

0:00:43 > 0:00:46As the investigation into the nerve agent attack in Salisbury continues,

0:00:46 > 0:00:48we'll be taking to the former Home Secretary Jack Straw

0:00:48 > 0:00:53and former Security Minister, Pauline Neville Jones.

0:00:53 > 0:00:54Is there room for more spending?

0:00:54 > 0:00:57Ahead of his spring statement this week, the Chancellor Philip Hammond

0:00:57 > 0:00:59has hinted austerity could be over as he said there was "light

0:00:59 > 0:01:07at the end of the tunnel".

0:01:08 > 0:01:10We join the Universities minister Sam Gyimah on what's jokingly been

0:01:10 > 0:01:12called a "punishment tour" of the country -

0:01:12 > 0:01:17trying to attract students to the Conservative Party.

0:01:17 > 0:01:20Most of my friends always slander the Conservative name saying it's

0:01:20 > 0:01:24only for middle aged men who want to benefit from themselves.At first I

0:01:24 > 0:01:29was like, I'm not going to say it. One of my flatmates was like, if you

0:01:29 > 0:01:32are not Labour, don't talk to me and I was like OK.

0:01:32 > 0:01:34In London, the Liberal Democrat leader Vince Cable tells us why he's

0:01:34 > 0:01:35And on Sunday Politics Scotland...

0:01:35 > 0:01:38Richard Leonard tries to rally the troops but could the single

0:01:38 > 0:01:39market crack become a chasm?

0:01:39 > 0:01:46I'll be speaking to him from his party conference in Dundee.

0:01:48 > 0:01:50All that coming up in the programme.

0:01:50 > 0:01:53And as usual we've got three Westminster insiders who will take

0:01:53 > 0:01:56us behind the headlines and tell us what's really going on.

0:01:56 > 0:01:59Today I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn, Dia Chakravarty and George Eaton.

0:01:59 > 0:02:02The unfolding events over the past week in the cathedral city

0:02:02 > 0:02:05of Salisbury could have been taken straight from the pages

0:02:05 > 0:02:06of a spy thriller.

0:02:06 > 0:02:09The poisoning of a Russian former double agent who had passed secrets

0:02:09 > 0:02:12to Britain and moved to Salisbury after a 2010 spy swap, involved

0:02:12 > 0:02:15the use of a sinister nerve agent.

0:02:15 > 0:02:18It has shocked the country with the finger of suspicion

0:02:18 > 0:02:25pointing firmly at Moscow.

0:02:25 > 0:02:29The big story of the week started in Salisbury after a former

0:02:29 > 0:02:31Russian double agent, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter

0:02:31 > 0:02:34Yulia and the policeman who went to their aid all mysteriously fell

0:02:34 > 0:02:42ill because an as yet unidentified nerve agent.

0:02:43 > 0:02:4712 years ago, Alexander Litvinenko was killed by polonium 210.

0:02:47 > 0:02:51Was this more Russian foul play?

0:02:51 > 0:02:54Boris Johnson was quick to retaliate, saying there could be

0:02:54 > 0:02:57implications for this summer's World Cup in Russia.

0:02:57 > 0:03:02I think it will be very difficult to imagine that UK representation

0:03:02 > 0:03:04in that event could go ahead in the normal way.

0:03:04 > 0:03:07Did he mean the England team?

0:03:07 > 0:03:09The Prime Minister explained.

0:03:09 > 0:03:11The point the Foreign Secretary was making yesterday was that,

0:03:11 > 0:03:13depending on what comes out in relation to the investigation

0:03:13 > 0:03:17into the attack on the two individuals that took place

0:03:17 > 0:03:21in Salisbury, that it might be appropriate for the government

0:03:21 > 0:03:24to look at whether ministers and other dignitaries should attend

0:03:24 > 0:03:27the World Cup in Russia.

0:03:27 > 0:03:30Russian state TV mocked the Foreign Secretary for his comments,

0:03:30 > 0:03:34but the government's firm language persisted.

0:03:34 > 0:03:40The use of a nerve agent on UK soil is a brazen and reckless act.

0:03:40 > 0:03:48This was attempted murder in the most cruel and public way.

0:03:48 > 0:03:50We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word

0:03:50 > 0:03:53as the Chancellor delivered the latest big Brexit speech.

0:03:53 > 0:03:56He's determined to get a good deal for the city.

0:03:56 > 0:04:00We still can't get through a week without mentioning the B word

0:04:00 > 0:04:03So I'm clear not only that it is possible to include

0:04:03 > 0:04:06financial services within a trade deal, but that it is very much

0:04:06 > 0:04:08in our mutual interest to do so.

0:04:08 > 0:04:10Perhaps unsurprisingly the EU disagreed.

0:04:10 > 0:04:12Also when it comes to financial services, life will be

0:04:12 > 0:04:17different after Brexit.

0:04:17 > 0:04:20The EU had other things to worry about, though, as Donald Trump put

0:04:20 > 0:04:23forward his highly controversial plan to make American steel

0:04:23 > 0:04:26and aluminium great again.

0:04:26 > 0:04:29Surrounded by metal workers, the President signed proclamations

0:04:29 > 0:04:34to impose a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminium

0:04:34 > 0:04:37imports into the US.

0:04:37 > 0:04:41The European Union has not treated us well and it's been a very,

0:04:41 > 0:04:45very unfair trade situation.

0:04:45 > 0:04:47Claims of Parliamentary bullying and sexual harassment hit

0:04:47 > 0:04:49the headlines with some of the allegations going

0:04:49 > 0:04:52all the way to the top.

0:04:52 > 0:04:55Back in 2010, a woman called Kate Emms took up the position

0:04:55 > 0:04:58as John Bercow's private secretary.

0:04:58 > 0:05:02But she stood down from that post after less than a year.

0:05:02 > 0:05:05Her colleagues told Newsnight that this is because Mr Bercow's

0:05:05 > 0:05:09bullying left her unable to continue in that job.

0:05:09 > 0:05:12Theresa May enthusiastically welcomed Saudi royalty

0:05:12 > 0:05:14to Downing Street this week.

0:05:14 > 0:05:19Mohammed bin Salman was even treated to lunch at the Palace.

0:05:19 > 0:05:26Billboards sprung up extolling in the crown prince's virtues.

0:05:26 > 0:05:28Supporters of the man they call Mr Everything say

0:05:28 > 0:05:30he is a great reformer.

0:05:30 > 0:05:32But protests surrounding UK arms sales were also highly visible

0:05:32 > 0:05:34and with Saudi's intervention in Yemen ongoing, the visit

0:05:34 > 0:05:36angered Jeremy Corbyn.

0:05:36 > 0:05:40British arms sales have sharply increased and British military

0:05:40 > 0:05:42advisers are directing the war.

0:05:42 > 0:05:46It cannot be right that her government...

0:05:46 > 0:05:51Mr Speaker, it cannot be right that her government is colluding

0:05:51 > 0:05:56in what the United Nations says is evidence of war crimes.

0:05:56 > 0:05:59Clearly riled, Theresa May got her own back, calling

0:05:59 > 0:06:03Jeremy Corbyn out on the eve of International Women's Day.

0:06:03 > 0:06:05Can I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman

0:06:05 > 0:06:09for telling me that it is International Women's Day tomorrow.

0:06:09 > 0:06:11LAUGHTER.

0:06:11 > 0:06:19I think that's what's called "mansplaining".

0:06:19 > 0:06:27Tom, Dia and George were watching that with me.

0:06:30 > 0:06:32Now some insight and analysis into what's going on behind the

0:06:32 > 0:06:36headlines. The big story of the week is obviously the poisoning of Sergei

0:06:36 > 0:06:39Skripal and whether or not Russia was involved. A lot of people have

0:06:39 > 0:06:44been quick to assume that President Putin sanctioned this and it's a

0:06:44 > 0:06:48Russian state operation but can we be sure of that?Reasonably sure,

0:06:48 > 0:06:51yes, clearly there is no physical proof to produce at the moment. I

0:06:51 > 0:06:56think by the end of last week the government were in no doubt that

0:06:56 > 0:07:01this was ordered by the Russian state and in particular Vladimir

0:07:01 > 0:07:05Putin, who, under Russian state rules, has to sign of all foreign

0:07:05 > 0:07:09assassinations personally since rule change in 2006. The reason I think

0:07:09 > 0:07:13they are almost certain about this is quite frankly no one else has a

0:07:13 > 0:07:18motive to do that. Who would want to do a better job in spite of analogy

0:07:18 > 0:07:25on an old colonel living quietly in Salisbury? Not the people have the

0:07:25 > 0:07:29modes of delivery to do this, to pass a nerve agent, chemical

0:07:29 > 0:07:34weapons, on Britain's streets. Thirdly, this will be the killer,

0:07:34 > 0:07:39the scientific proof it was an extremely rare nerve agent, used,

0:07:39 > 0:07:44not one of the more widely available once you see in things like Syria,

0:07:44 > 0:07:48it's a rare particular type which has only been known to be produced

0:07:48 > 0:07:55in one or two laboratories in the world, one of them is in Moscow. The

0:07:55 > 0:07:58Moscow foreign spy service. What is fascinating is not just was Vladimir

0:07:58 > 0:08:03Putin responsible? It is why he wanted us to know he was

0:08:03 > 0:08:07responsible, because he left such a massive calling card, and that has

0:08:07 > 0:08:14been really bothering cabinet ministers in the last week.Dia, we

0:08:14 > 0:08:17had from the Chief Medical Officer who said traces of this nerve agent

0:08:17 > 0:08:22has been found in the restaurant where Sergei Skripal and his

0:08:22 > 0:08:25daughter were eating and 500 people were there at the same time and they

0:08:25 > 0:08:28should wash their clothes and clean their possessions that were with

0:08:28 > 0:08:33them. There is a small rescue but there is a risk. Frightening news

0:08:33 > 0:08:36like that is what drives home to people why it matters this is

0:08:36 > 0:08:40happening in the UK.Absolutely and there are so many questions about

0:08:40 > 0:08:43this, even before we do want to who was doing this. That's very

0:08:43 > 0:08:48important. This also questions about how the whole thing has been

0:08:48 > 0:08:52handled, seven days, and they are now telling these terrified

0:08:52 > 0:08:57residents to wash their clothes and possessions. Is that going to be

0:08:57 > 0:09:03enough? What exactly is this agent? If we see people in scary laboratory

0:09:03 > 0:09:08suits walking around, doing what they need to do, a quarantine going

0:09:08 > 0:09:14on, is it enough to say go and wash your clothes seven days later? The

0:09:14 > 0:09:17communication around it, I understand it is sensitive, that I

0:09:17 > 0:09:23think it has been dire. Really quite woeful. If I was living in Salisbury

0:09:23 > 0:09:29I would be very, very worried. George, the UK Government, once the

0:09:29 > 0:09:33investigation has finished and they decide whether this was a

0:09:33 > 0:09:36state-sponsored assassination, they need to decide how to respond. All

0:09:36 > 0:09:40we have practically heard of so far is some rubber mats might not go to

0:09:40 > 0:09:45the World Cup in Russia, presumably will have to do come up with

0:09:45 > 0:09:48something better than that -- diplomats. What can we do that

0:09:48 > 0:09:53Russia will care about?The pressure from some Labour Party and

0:09:53 > 0:09:59Conservative MPs is to introduce a version of the Magnitsky Act, which

0:09:59 > 0:10:03means it's easier to freeze the assets of Russians suspected of

0:10:03 > 0:10:07human rights abuses or corruption, and expel them, but Britain is

0:10:07 > 0:10:11severely limited and I think it's worth asking the question why did

0:10:11 > 0:10:16Russia choose this moment to target Britain? We are set to leave the

0:10:16 > 0:10:19European Union, huge burdens on governments, stretching the

0:10:19 > 0:10:25government bandwidth to its limits, and Donald Trump and the USA who we

0:10:25 > 0:10:28supposedly have a special relationship with, is imposing

0:10:28 > 0:10:31tariffs on steel and has not made any robust intervention over this,

0:10:31 > 0:10:36despite the fact he normally rushes to tweet when there is a terrorist

0:10:36 > 0:10:41attack on British soil after making unhelpful remarks. He has not been

0:10:41 > 0:10:44standing shoulder to shoulder with Britain in this instance.There has

0:10:44 > 0:10:49been a suggestion this should come up at the next Nato summit in

0:10:49 > 0:10:54Brussels, and they could be looking for some kind of coordinated

0:10:54 > 0:10:59response from international allies. Is that likely?It's difficult to

0:10:59 > 0:11:04see at the moment. Russia's strength here is significant and Vladimir

0:11:04 > 0:11:07Putin, such a brazen act, clearly he does not feel Britain has the

0:11:07 > 0:11:13capacity to respond. Last December, when we were short of gas, the one

0:11:13 > 0:11:18country we turn to was Russia.We will be back to talk about the other

0:11:18 > 0:11:20stories during the programme.

0:11:20 > 0:11:22The poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter carries

0:11:22 > 0:11:24echoes of the murder of Alexander Litvinenko,

0:11:24 > 0:11:26the ex KGB officer who died after drinking tea laced

0:11:26 > 0:11:30with radioactive polonium 210 in a London hotel in 2006.

0:11:30 > 0:11:33And this morning, his widow, Marina Litvinenko urged Theresa May

0:11:33 > 0:11:39to adopt American-style laws that are tougher on Russia.

0:11:39 > 0:11:45You need to be very selective who you are friends with. And when you

0:11:45 > 0:11:49allow people with money to come to your country and make a business,

0:11:49 > 0:11:53you need to be sure what kind of money these people try to bring to

0:11:53 > 0:11:57your country because very often this money is stolen from Russian people

0:11:57 > 0:12:08and sometimes it is a very serious crime behind it. I'm

0:12:08 > 0:12:13crime behind it. I'm absolutely asking this question to unite this

0:12:13 > 0:12:17action already done in the United States, in Europe. I think the UK

0:12:17 > 0:12:19has to do the same steps.

0:12:19 > 0:12:21Joining me now from Edinburgh is the former Home and Foreign

0:12:21 > 0:12:23Secretary, Jack Straw.

0:12:23 > 0:12:30Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Do you agree that the

0:12:30 > 0:12:34UK needs to introduce tougher laws, the likes of which the US has?I do

0:12:34 > 0:12:40think we should do this now. I think have to take this very careful

0:12:40 > 0:12:46step-by-step way, so I think the approach of Amber Rudd and her

0:12:46 > 0:12:50security minister, Ben Wallace, is the right one. Jumping to

0:12:50 > 0:12:53conclusions in this situation is not a sensible way to proceed. The other

0:12:53 > 0:12:57thing we have to think about very carefully, when it comes to those

0:12:57 > 0:13:00who are saying something must be done and if you are in government,

0:13:00 > 0:13:04you get this all the time, in situations like this, something has

0:13:04 > 0:13:08got to be done, is what happens when you have to get back to normality? I

0:13:08 > 0:13:15often reflect on the sanctions were imposed to Zimbabwe for the

0:13:15 > 0:13:23different situation but there are parallels. In retrospect, Robert

0:13:23 > 0:13:29Mugabe was a very bad man, but in retrospect I often wonder if it was

0:13:29 > 0:13:35a sensible thing to do. In the end we had to get the troops down again.

0:13:35 > 0:13:39It was very tricky so people need to think very carefully indeed. This is

0:13:39 > 0:13:42on the assumption the Russian state was behind this, which has not yet

0:13:42 > 0:13:49been approved or announced.If we do establish that and work on the

0:13:49 > 0:13:54presumption for now and I understand your reservations, would President

0:13:54 > 0:13:59Putin care if we were to try and institute some kind of sanctions or

0:13:59 > 0:14:03punishments or does it just increase the siege mentality Russia is under

0:14:03 > 0:14:06threat from the rest of the world which in many ways bolstered his

0:14:06 > 0:14:12position in advance of the elections coming up soon?If we were to do it

0:14:12 > 0:14:16unilaterally, just the UK, he wouldn't careful stop with the EU,

0:14:16 > 0:14:22and more other major allies including the USA, he might take

0:14:22 > 0:14:27notice but frankly, I think he regarded as a medal if we were

0:14:27 > 0:14:32simply to do it by ourselves and he knows that, post the collapse of the

0:14:32 > 0:14:36Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, there is a huge

0:14:36 > 0:14:41amount of Russian money in the UK, particularly in London, and a

0:14:41 > 0:14:46Magnitsky Act won't make that much difference to the level of

0:14:46 > 0:14:49dependence of some very highly respectable British London based

0:14:49 > 0:14:57financial institutions with Russian money.

0:14:57 > 0:15:01With the Alexander Litvinenko case, an enquiry two tiers to get to the

0:15:01 > 0:15:07bottom of what happened there, and could only conclude that it was

0:15:07 > 0:15:11probably orchestrated by the Russian state. Can you take any sort of

0:15:11 > 0:15:16action on the basis of something probably being true?People need to

0:15:16 > 0:15:23bear in mind the example of Iraq. The evidence against Saddam Hussein

0:15:23 > 0:15:27having and continuing to have biological weapons was overwhelming.

0:15:27 > 0:15:33The question came up in United Nations Security Council

0:15:33 > 0:15:38resolutions, passed unanimously. That is what Tony Blair and I used

0:15:38 > 0:15:41almost 15 years ago to persuade people to go to war against Iraq,

0:15:41 > 0:15:46and it turned out to be completely incorrect, so you've got to be

0:15:46 > 0:15:50really careful. I have the scars literally on my back in respect of

0:15:50 > 0:15:55this. In the heat of the moment, with people in the House of Commons

0:15:55 > 0:15:59and the newspapers screeching, something 's got to be done, being

0:15:59 > 0:16:07non-explicit about what... Moreover, we shouldn't descend to the level of

0:16:07 > 0:16:11the criminal justice system in the Russian Federation or other states

0:16:11 > 0:16:19like that. There are demands today from some Conservatives to ban the

0:16:19 > 0:16:27Russia Today programme.The Shadow Chancellor said today that he

0:16:27 > 0:16:30doesn't think Labour MPs will be appearing on there in the future.

0:16:30 > 0:16:34Will you do the same?I have not appeared on there for some time, but

0:16:34 > 0:16:39I will make a decision on my own terms. We have to be careful about

0:16:39 > 0:16:46doing that in the absence of evidence. Far better for Britain's

0:16:46 > 0:16:51position in the world to have high standards of probity. It's better to

0:16:51 > 0:16:56bear in mind that well intentioned people who do not lie at all,

0:16:56 > 0:17:00including myself, and the House of Commons by a huge majority, and

0:17:00 > 0:17:04public opinion at the time, came to the wrong decision with respect to

0:17:04 > 0:17:10whether or not Saddam Hussein still had biological weapons on the basis

0:17:10 > 0:17:14of probabilities. That is the difficulty here. People will of

0:17:14 > 0:17:19course be very impatient indeed to have a culprit here, and obviously

0:17:19 > 0:17:23stacking it up on the basis of circumstantial evidence, you can

0:17:23 > 0:17:28make a very good case that it is the Russian state, but we need a bit of

0:17:28 > 0:17:33sobriety before we come to that conclusion. Thank God that Amber

0:17:33 > 0:17:37Rudd is the Home Secretary at the moment. Someone else I could think

0:17:37 > 0:17:43of in the British Cabinet, and she is taking a very measured approach

0:17:43 > 0:17:46to this.

0:17:46 > 0:17:49Here with me now is Pauline Neville Jones, who was Security

0:17:49 > 0:17:51and Counter Terrorism Minister under David Cameron, when Theresa May

0:17:51 > 0:17:53was Home Secretary.

0:17:53 > 0:17:57That was fascinating, listening to Jack Straw drawing parallels with

0:17:57 > 0:18:01Iraq and what was supposedly the evidence of chemical and biological

0:18:01 > 0:18:05weapons there, saying we have to be very careful about pointing the

0:18:05 > 0:18:09finger of blame. With your security experience, will we ever be able to

0:18:09 > 0:18:13establish whether this was sanctioned by the Russians?I doubt

0:18:13 > 0:18:18the Russian state will admit it was involved. In order to get absolute

0:18:18 > 0:18:23proof, what we needed with Litvinenko was to have a trial.

0:18:23 > 0:18:29There hasn't been a trial because the Russians wouldn't cooperate. I

0:18:29 > 0:18:32think it's right for the government to be cautious about saying anything

0:18:32 > 0:18:37now, because it mustn't be seen to lead the investigation and therefore

0:18:37 > 0:18:41damage it, but once we have established a degree of probability

0:18:41 > 0:18:47about the cause, that is the time for action. I think the chances of

0:18:47 > 0:18:50it not being connected with Russia in some way are very low.The means

0:18:50 > 0:18:56would point to that, but what is the motive? This is a retired agent

0:18:56 > 0:19:02who's been living here for years. Came as part of the spy as well. The

0:19:02 > 0:19:08unwritten rule of espionage is that you don't touch spies. What dangers

0:19:08 > 0:19:16does he pose to the Russian regime? I think we simply don't know the

0:19:16 > 0:19:20full story. There's plenty of evidence that the Russian regime is

0:19:20 > 0:19:25pretty vicious. Even if he was part of a swap, I don't think you can

0:19:25 > 0:19:29exclude the fact that the Russian state might decide to take action

0:19:29 > 0:19:35against him.Looking at pictures of him and his daughter there. It's

0:19:35 > 0:19:40difficult to see what threat they posed to the Russian state. Is it

0:19:40 > 0:19:43not worth considering the possibility that they may have been

0:19:43 > 0:19:52involved in something else that isn't technically state faction --

0:19:52 > 0:19:56state sanctioned?If possible. It is possible that the Mafia was

0:19:56 > 0:20:00involved. The question is, what lay behind the Mafia and where did the

0:20:00 > 0:20:06nerve agent come from? Is it possible to come from elsewhere than

0:20:06 > 0:20:13a state laboratory? It's difficult to imagine that the threat isn't

0:20:13 > 0:20:19going to go back to Russia somehow. Is it possible to take action

0:20:19 > 0:20:23against wealthy Russian oligarchs living in London, even if we change

0:20:23 > 0:20:30the laws and bring in something like the Magnitsky act? Mrs Litvinenko

0:20:30 > 0:20:34got a letter from Theresa May, Home Secretary at the time, saying that

0:20:34 > 0:20:38we want to make sure nothing like this happens again in the UK, and

0:20:38 > 0:20:43now it has.There are already powers which the government can use. One of

0:20:43 > 0:20:46the reasons why there was an argument in the Commons the other

0:20:46 > 0:20:52day about this so-called Magnitsky amendment was that the government

0:20:52 > 0:20:58said, we've got the powers. You may say, we need to use these powers,

0:20:58 > 0:21:03for example to investigate people who have unexplained wealth. There

0:21:03 > 0:21:08are things we can do.These are people who are not necessarily

0:21:08 > 0:21:14linked to Putin and the regime, so these are two distinct things.They

0:21:14 > 0:21:19are. You have to be careful how you do this, and it requires resources.

0:21:19 > 0:21:23This is a complicated job. Jack Straw put his finger on it when he

0:21:23 > 0:21:28said, we need to act in concert with allies. This is the thing that the

0:21:28 > 0:21:33Russians really are going to take notice of. At the moment, it's fair

0:21:33 > 0:21:39to say that although we are Aljaz overtime, we have gradually

0:21:39 > 0:21:44increased the pressure. With sanctions, and Nato have increased

0:21:44 > 0:21:48measures on its borders, but we still have a great deal of

0:21:48 > 0:21:52harassment from the Russians. They are taking action in people's

0:21:52 > 0:21:58politics. They are conducting cyber attacks. We need to act as an

0:21:58 > 0:22:04alliance so that the Russians really do believe, and they seek positive

0:22:04 > 0:22:09evidence of it, that action against one is an action against all, and

0:22:09 > 0:22:13collective action follows. We need to have a strategy that brings

0:22:13 > 0:22:19together what we do militarily, what we do to protect our citizens in the

0:22:19 > 0:22:23cyber sphere, what we do in broadcasting, so we have an all

0:22:23 > 0:22:30encompassing way of dealing with Russia.Thank you very much for

0:22:30 > 0:22:33coming to talk to us.

0:22:33 > 0:22:35The new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah, has set himself

0:22:35 > 0:22:36a rather ambitious task.

0:22:36 > 0:22:38Travelling up and down the country, he's trying to attract students

0:22:38 > 0:22:39to the Conservative Party.

0:22:39 > 0:22:43With just one in five voters aged between 18 and 24 voting Tory

0:22:43 > 0:22:44in the 2017 election, it's been jokingly called

0:22:44 > 0:22:45his "punishment tour".

0:22:45 > 0:22:48Our reporter Elizabeth Glinka joined Sam on his visit

0:22:48 > 0:22:49to Canterbury Christ Church University.

0:22:49 > 0:22:57And just to warn you, her report contains flashing images.

0:23:08 > 0:23:10Was that a youth quake?

0:23:10 > 0:23:12Reports of a massive increase in young voters at

0:23:12 > 0:23:15the last general election may have been exaggerated.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18# I got the big size 12s on my feet...

0:23:18 > 0:23:21Nationally, the turnout didn't really change, but of

0:23:21 > 0:23:27the young people that did vote, a whopping 67% went for Labour.

0:23:27 > 0:23:29And in a place like Canterbury, where there

0:23:29 > 0:23:32are more than 30,000 students, it's thought that their votes played

0:23:32 > 0:23:37a big part in the city electing its first ever Labour MP.

0:23:37 > 0:23:39Canterbury.

0:23:39 > 0:23:42This has been Conservative since World War I.

0:23:42 > 0:23:48An extraordinary surge in their share, up 20% here.

0:23:48 > 0:23:50In general, everyone just always seems to think

0:23:50 > 0:23:52that the Conservatives are always doing something wrong,

0:23:52 > 0:23:54so even if you don't know about the Conservatives,

0:23:54 > 0:23:56all you hear, you just think negative things about it.

0:23:56 > 0:23:59Most of my friends always slander the Conservative name, saying,

0:23:59 > 0:24:02"It's only for middle-aged men who want the benefit from themselves."

0:24:02 > 0:24:04Do you think you have to be quite brave to

0:24:04 > 0:24:05say, "I am a Conservative?"

0:24:05 > 0:24:07Yeah.

0:24:07 > 0:24:09At first, I was like, OK, I'm not going

0:24:09 > 0:24:12to say anything to my friends, because they will just kick off.

0:24:12 > 0:24:14One of my flatmates was like, "If you are not a Labour

0:24:14 > 0:24:16voter, don't talk to me."

0:24:16 > 0:24:17Labour had a lot of backing.

0:24:17 > 0:24:19They had people like AJ Tracey jumping on.

0:24:19 > 0:24:21So once they see that, everyone kind of runs

0:24:21 > 0:24:23to it, like, let's vote Labour.

0:24:23 > 0:24:24# Tracksuit grey, black, blue

0:24:24 > 0:24:26# I was just a hope-filled kid like you...

0:24:26 > 0:24:29AJ Tracey is just one of any number of current music acts who publicly

0:24:29 > 0:24:32endorsed the Labour Party at the last general election,

0:24:32 > 0:24:35helping to build a brand which was apparently three times

0:24:35 > 0:24:39more attractive to young voters.

0:24:39 > 0:24:42To be fair, it's not as if there was some sort of golden

0:24:42 > 0:24:45era of Conservative hipsters, but the figures suggest

0:24:45 > 0:24:49things are getting worse.

0:24:49 > 0:24:52And that's why the new Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah,

0:24:52 > 0:24:55is currently on a nationwide tour, including here in Canterbury,

0:24:55 > 0:24:58where he is attempting to at least start a conversation

0:24:58 > 0:25:01with a generation of voters who see his party as old, male and stale.

0:25:01 > 0:25:05Minister, this seems a good time to jump in.

0:25:05 > 0:25:10This is an incredibly difficult job, isn't it, convincing young people

0:25:10 > 0:25:12to vote Conservative?

0:25:12 > 0:25:16We do have our work cut out for us, but I think the first thing to do

0:25:16 > 0:25:18is actually to be on campus.

0:25:18 > 0:25:22If we allow Jeremy Corbyn to be the only one on campus, then we only

0:25:22 > 0:25:24have ourselves to blame.

0:25:24 > 0:25:27Many students will say to you, well, it's fine, you're having

0:25:27 > 0:25:29a review on student fees and many other things.

0:25:29 > 0:25:32The Labour Party's promising us they're going to get rid of fees.

0:25:32 > 0:25:34We know what happens when you promised something for free.

0:25:34 > 0:25:37Numbers are going to be capped, which means fewer people

0:25:37 > 0:25:39going to university.

0:25:39 > 0:25:42It's the well off that are going to do it.

0:25:42 > 0:25:43That's not what we're about.

0:25:43 > 0:25:45I'm not really worried about Jeremy Corbyn's free

0:25:45 > 0:25:48for all offer, because it's not realistic, and he can't deliver it,

0:25:48 > 0:25:51and we only need to look at countries like Scotland to see

0:25:51 > 0:25:52that it's not going to work.

0:25:52 > 0:25:55And what reaction are you expecting when you head in there?

0:25:55 > 0:25:57Well, I thought it might be rowdy like PMQs.

0:25:57 > 0:25:58I've no idea.

0:25:58 > 0:26:00I haven't had the mob treatment anywhere yet so far.

0:26:00 > 0:26:02# Your face ain't big for my boot

0:26:02 > 0:26:03# Kick up the yout

0:26:03 > 0:26:07# I know that I kick up the yout...

0:26:07 > 0:26:09There might not have been a youth quake nationally,

0:26:09 > 0:26:13but there was a bit of a youth quake in Canterbury, and I want to listen

0:26:13 > 0:26:15and I want to understand.

0:26:15 > 0:26:16You know, we've had enough of austerity politics.

0:26:16 > 0:26:19We've had enough of student fees, things like that, and we've seen

0:26:19 > 0:26:23the NHS get less and less funded over time.

0:26:23 > 0:26:25And it's hard to ignore those things.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27You know, we are going to take action against you.

0:26:27 > 0:26:30# Bros in my ear saying "Stormz, don't do it"

0:26:30 > 0:26:32# Devil on my shoulder I don't lack

0:26:32 > 0:26:34# Hit 'em with a crowbar, I don't scrap...

0:26:34 > 0:26:36Well, lots of discussion, some of it a bit feisty,

0:26:36 > 0:26:38but did the Minister win any hearts and minds?

0:26:38 > 0:26:41He's really good at talking to students, and he's

0:26:41 > 0:26:42here to talk to everyone.

0:26:42 > 0:26:44Would it make you feel differently about voting Conservative?

0:26:44 > 0:26:48I took from your comments that you were not a Conservative voter.

0:26:48 > 0:26:51Definitely not, but I did think he made some good points,

0:26:51 > 0:26:52and he was very measured.

0:26:52 > 0:26:55It's quite clear that there are a number of people here who have

0:26:55 > 0:26:58been seduced by Jeremy Corbyn, but I think the purpose of this

0:26:58 > 0:27:01is to let them realise that there is a Conservative voice,

0:27:01 > 0:27:03there is a Conservative point of view, and that as a minister

0:27:03 > 0:27:06I am here to listen.

0:27:06 > 0:27:07Clearly a smart man.

0:27:07 > 0:27:11I'm not sure it's better or worse to have a smart

0:27:11 > 0:27:13Tory or a stupid Tory, but he knew what he was

0:27:13 > 0:27:16talking about, even though I disagree with him.

0:27:16 > 0:27:18Would it make you think twice about voting Conservative?

0:27:18 > 0:27:22No, I will never vote Conservative in my life.

0:27:22 > 0:27:28So as the sun sets in Canterbury, there's still a long way to go.

0:27:28 > 0:27:36And Universities Minister Sam Gymiah joins me now.

0:27:36 > 0:27:42A smart Tory. That is a compliment from one of the students! Do you

0:27:42 > 0:27:47think you persuaded many of them to vote Tory?The point of the exercise

0:27:47 > 0:27:52was not to persuade people to vote Conservative. As Universities

0:27:52 > 0:27:55Minister, I'm very conscious that students are investing a

0:27:55 > 0:28:01considerable amount of money in their education, so they should have

0:28:01 > 0:28:04a voice in the corridors of power. Gone are the days that the

0:28:04 > 0:28:09Universities Minister 's spends time with the chancellors and not the

0:28:09 > 0:28:14students. Jeremy Corbyn has a voice on the campus, and if we allow that

0:28:14 > 0:28:18to continue, we only have ourselves to blame. The starting point in the

0:28:18 > 0:28:22process is listening and engaging, rather than going in there to preach

0:28:22 > 0:28:27to them about what their problems and answers are.You have a mountain

0:28:27 > 0:28:32to climb with young people. Let's have a look at the numbers. At the

0:28:32 > 0:28:38last election, between 18 to 24-year-olds, 67% voted Labour.

0:28:38 > 0:28:45Unless you can change those minds, you have a generational problem with

0:28:45 > 0:28:48voters, and you will not see Conservative governments in the

0:28:48 > 0:28:52future, unless people change their minds.What I am doing at the moment

0:28:52 > 0:28:57is pressing, which is why the party is beginning to engage with students

0:28:57 > 0:29:00at this level. A number of things have come up as I've travelled

0:29:00 > 0:29:04around the country that we can address. Austerity keeps coming up.

0:29:04 > 0:29:10We stopped making the case for why we had to reduce the deficit from

0:29:10 > 0:29:14the extreme levels that we inherited from the Labour Party. One man said

0:29:14 > 0:29:27to me, all I have ever heard the Conservatives talk

0:29:28 > 0:29:30about is austerity. It must be your ideology. That is clearly not the

0:29:30 > 0:29:33case. It is a matter of necessity, not ideology.We have the spring

0:29:33 > 0:29:36statement coming up next week. The Chancellor has said this morning

0:29:36 > 0:29:39that we are in a much better financial position at the moment

0:29:39 > 0:29:43then we have been, but it doesn't sound like he's going to end

0:29:43 > 0:29:47austerity. Would you encourage him to do so?This brings statement is

0:29:47 > 0:29:52an update on the public finances. But he is going to point further

0:29:52 > 0:29:57ahead to the budget in the autumn, and he doesn't seem to be talking

0:29:57 > 0:30:01about the increased public spending you think will attract people to the

0:30:01 > 0:30:06Tories.We are not going to say we are going to return to discredited

0:30:06 > 0:30:10economic policies of 40 years ago. What he should be saying to young

0:30:10 > 0:30:15people is that the balanced approach that he is pursuing, in a world

0:30:15 > 0:30:19where we have technological challenge and a global market

0:30:19 > 0:30:23economy, the Conservatives are uniquely placed to deliver

0:30:23 > 0:30:28prosperity for them. Another issue that comes up is our motives. When

0:30:28 > 0:30:32we talk about economic prosperity, people feel it is for the few.

0:30:32 > 0:30:40Sometimes I have to explain that the top rate of tax has been higher

0:30:40 > 0:30:44under the Conservatives, and that the top 1% pay 20% of income tax.

0:30:44 > 0:30:50They didn't know that. We need to talk about -- we need to persuade

0:30:50 > 0:30:52them that when we talk about economic prosperity, it is their

0:30:52 > 0:30:58future we are talking about.

0:30:58 > 0:31:01You addressed tuition fees in the film but look at maintenance grants

0:31:01 > 0:31:05being cut by this government so the poorer students to go to university

0:31:05 > 0:31:08will lead with larger debt than those from better off backgrounds.

0:31:08 > 0:31:13When that is their experience right now on campus, no wonder they keep

0:31:13 > 0:31:19thinking you are looking after the better off and not the

0:31:19 > 0:31:21disadvantaged.Canterbury has the best proportion of students went

0:31:21 > 0:31:24university for the first time in their families. Many of those would

0:31:24 > 0:31:33not be at university at all had we pursue the Jeremy Corbyn policy.

0:31:34 > 0:31:38Jeremy Corbyn is promising to abolish tuition fees so that would

0:31:38 > 0:31:42make it easier for students to go to university.Once you make university

0:31:42 > 0:31:45free you can't have a current policy we have which is that the numbers

0:31:45 > 0:31:51who can go to university are capped. At a time when the numbers were not

0:31:51 > 0:31:55capped, our own history, very few people went to university and mentor

0:31:55 > 0:32:00very few poor people went university. A consequence of the

0:32:00 > 0:32:03Conservative policy is a lot of disadvantaged people are giving to

0:32:03 > 0:32:07university for the first time and we have a student finance scheme where

0:32:07 > 0:32:13you do not pay a penny as a first burner unless you in over £25,000

0:32:13 > 0:32:17and after 30 years, whatever you have managed to pay, is written. I'm

0:32:17 > 0:32:21not saying is perfect.That very system is replacing grants for

0:32:21 > 0:32:28poorer students with loans. Why? If you are so keen to get disadvantaged

0:32:28 > 0:32:32students into universities, wide takeaway maintenance grants?There

0:32:32 > 0:32:35is a review looking at the whole system, but when many students

0:32:35 > 0:32:39complain about the student finances, they focus on accommodation.

0:32:39 > 0:32:45Somewhere like London, landlords want to get the years rent in

0:32:45 > 0:32:49advance. That is a difficult situation for them and the cost of

0:32:49 > 0:32:55living issues, rather than assuming we know...There's an interest rate

0:32:55 > 0:33:00on a student loan of over 6% which is way in excess of what people are

0:33:00 > 0:33:07borrowing on mortgages etc.The cost of living in University...They must

0:33:07 > 0:33:12be worried about it.Whatever your level of earnings, you pay 9% of

0:33:12 > 0:33:16your income, which means higher rate in graduates pay more to the system

0:33:16 > 0:33:22but I also think to narrow the debate on student fees, students

0:33:22 > 0:33:26have a lot of interest, not all students think student fees is their

0:33:26 > 0:33:32big issue. Someone to see their politicians care about making the

0:33:32 > 0:33:36world a better place. What kind of world they are going into, they will

0:33:36 > 0:33:39get on the housing ladder, housing is big issue for them but the

0:33:39 > 0:33:42economy prospers, so I think that's why you have got to listen and not

0:33:42 > 0:33:46assume all students have the same view and there is one answer that

0:33:46 > 0:33:50deals with all the problems of every 18-21 -year-old.Mental health keeps

0:33:50 > 0:33:56cropping up. I'm sure the university 's lecturers strike came up as well.

0:33:56 > 0:34:01Now students are paying £9,000 in fees, they are consumers as well as

0:34:01 > 0:34:04students, so should they get a refund for the lessons they have not

0:34:04 > 0:34:11been taught?Universities do not pay lecturers on the day they strike,

0:34:11 > 0:34:15they should not pocket those funds, but look at compensation for

0:34:15 > 0:34:19students and there are real ways of compensating students.Would you

0:34:19 > 0:34:25compel them to do that?I'm not in a position to compel them to do that.

0:34:25 > 0:34:27There is the regulator for university who has a wide-ranging

0:34:27 > 0:34:33remit. I'm encouraged some universities are taking this

0:34:33 > 0:34:39seriously. Kings College London will offer financial compensation. I

0:34:39 > 0:34:43think they should look at this very seriously. I am disappointed I am

0:34:43 > 0:34:47seeing lots of petitions out there from Durham University, a petition

0:34:47 > 0:34:53of 5000 students, asking for compensation. I want to university

0:34:53 > 0:34:56to respond constructively, because we are in the age of the student and

0:34:56 > 0:35:00we are there to serve.One quick question, talking about Russia on

0:35:00 > 0:35:05the programme so far this morning, a story this morning in the papers

0:35:05 > 0:35:09saying over £800 million has been donated to the Tory party from

0:35:09 > 0:35:14Russian link to donors since Theresa May took over, even notice that you

0:35:14 > 0:35:17wanted an arms length relationship. Is that something that should be

0:35:17 > 0:35:22discouraged in the future and should the money be returned now?To make a

0:35:22 > 0:35:25donation to a political party in this country you have to be a

0:35:25 > 0:35:30citizen Dungannon

0:35:33 > 0:35:37citizen Dungannon -- and betting needs to be taken place. Modern

0:35:37 > 0:35:44Britain is made up by people from all sorts of places. Some groups of

0:35:44 > 0:35:46people cannot participate in Aber Democratic life to the fall, and we

0:35:46 > 0:35:51have got to be clear, these are British citizens from Russia. Not

0:35:51 > 0:35:56the Kremlin donating to the Conservative Party.Of course not,

0:35:56 > 0:36:00but there could be a question of where those funds came from in the

0:36:00 > 0:36:04first place for the wedding end up on the front page of a Sunday

0:36:04 > 0:36:07newspaper saying this much money has been donated to the Conservative

0:36:07 > 0:36:11Party, maybe it would be better to think again where you receive your

0:36:11 > 0:36:15large donations from?It's not just the letter of the law but vetting

0:36:15 > 0:36:22should be thorough.Sam Gyimah, thank you very much for coming in to

0:36:22 > 0:36:23talk to us.

0:36:23 > 0:36:24It's coming up to 11.40.

0:36:24 > 0:36:25You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:36:25 > 0:36:27Still to come, we'll be discussing the economy.

0:36:27 > 0:36:29Is it time to end austerity?

0:36:29 > 0:36:33First though, its time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:36:33 > 0:36:35Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:36:35 > 0:36:36Coming up on the programme....

0:36:36 > 0:36:38Smiles and glad hands at the conference.

0:36:38 > 0:36:40But behind the scenes, how big a problem has

0:36:40 > 0:36:42Scottish Labour got over the single market?

0:36:42 > 0:36:44I'll be asking their leader, Richard Leonard, whether

0:36:44 > 0:36:46Jeremy Corbyn's remarks on immigration were xenophobic.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50And the Scottish Youth Theatre gets set to close.

0:36:50 > 0:36:55I'll be asking Creative Scotland if there's any chance

0:36:55 > 0:36:58of an 11th-hour funding reprieve - the answer appears

0:36:58 > 0:37:02to be, yes, there is.

0:37:02 > 0:37:04At the Scottish Labour Conference, its new leader, Richard Leonard,

0:37:04 > 0:37:07promised a fundamental change in the Scottish economy and said

0:37:07 > 0:37:09he would not only stop future Private Finance Initiative deals,

0:37:09 > 0:37:13but bring existing ones back into the public sector.

0:37:13 > 0:37:15But was he really threatening to cancel contracts?

0:37:15 > 0:37:18He also ran into a row over a speech by Jeremy Corbyn

0:37:18 > 0:37:21which Nicola Sturgeon and some in the Labour Party itself said was

0:37:21 > 0:37:23using the language of Nigel Farage.

0:37:23 > 0:37:31Well, a little earlier I spoke to Richard Leonard.

0:37:31 > 0:37:38You said in your speech yesterday that not only under you would do no

0:37:38 > 0:37:42longer be any PFI contracts but you wanted to bring existing ones in

0:37:42 > 0:37:50house. How exactly do you propose to do that?Well, there are around 130

0:37:50 > 0:37:59both PFI PPP and not-for-profit contracts out there and they are in

0:37:59 > 0:38:02large measure all different and it would be a case of renegotiating

0:38:02 > 0:38:06each one of them. Some of them frankly are coming towards the end

0:38:06 > 0:38:16of their lives, some are in

0:38:16 > 0:38:18of their lives, some are in the hands of companies who would

0:38:18 > 0:38:20probably look forward to an opportunity to get themselves out of

0:38:20 > 0:38:22those contracts. So I think the environment for negotiation is good

0:38:22 > 0:38:25at the moment. Whilst I said in my speech yesterday that under a future

0:38:25 > 0:38:30Scottish Labour government, we would not sign any new PFI deals or NPD

0:38:30 > 0:38:34deals, I think there is action that could be taken at the moment and we

0:38:34 > 0:38:39have a debate tabled in the next few days and the Scottish Parliament on

0:38:39 > 0:38:43this whole question of public infrastructure, hopefully we will

0:38:43 > 0:38:47call for a review of the Scottish Futures Trust.To be clear, if I am

0:38:47 > 0:38:52a contractor who has one of these PFI contracts and I am listening to

0:38:52 > 0:38:58you, I do not need to worry that you will somehow break the contract?

0:38:58 > 0:39:05This will only be if I am willing to negotiate with you?Well, it will be

0:39:05 > 0:39:09a negotiation, absolutely, again, I have said that there are priorities,

0:39:09 > 0:39:13the priorities would be what you might call the low hanging fruit of

0:39:13 > 0:39:17those contracts coming to the end of the alive, so let us look at how

0:39:17 > 0:39:21they can excel and bringing that into the public sector, but for

0:39:21 > 0:39:24reasons that I am sure that you understand, I am keen to see the

0:39:24 > 0:39:28removal of private contractors from the National Health Service. So

0:39:28 > 0:39:33where did our facilities and management companies who are

0:39:33 > 0:39:37currently delivering services in our hospitals, I would like to see the

0:39:37 > 0:39:41contracts brought out as a matter of urgency.But if I am one of these

0:39:41 > 0:39:44contractors and I do not want to negotiate with you and I have a

0:39:44 > 0:39:52contract and I want to stick to that, I would be allowed to do that?

0:39:52 > 0:39:56Well, the point of entering into a negotiation is to try to find a

0:39:56 > 0:40:00settlement.What if I do not want to negotiate and I want to settle with

0:40:00 > 0:40:07my current contract?Well, in the commercial world, my experience of

0:40:07 > 0:40:14over 20 years as a trade union negotiator, it is that in the end

0:40:14 > 0:40:17people are prepared to reach settlements and to go through a

0:40:17 > 0:40:21negotiation process to find that. So I would be very surprised if there

0:40:21 > 0:40:24were any contractors involved in delivering public services in

0:40:24 > 0:40:29Scotland that would not be at least open to a conversation about how an

0:40:29 > 0:40:34earlier termination of the contract could be reached.Sorry, why? If I

0:40:34 > 0:40:39had a contract and I built a PFI hospital or a bold and I have lots

0:40:39 > 0:40:43of money coming in from it and for the next ten years, I am telling you

0:40:43 > 0:40:50I am happy with this, thank you, I am making a lot of money out of it.

0:40:50 > 0:40:53Yes, but Gordon, this is in the context of seeing the collapse of

0:40:53 > 0:40:58Carillion, one of the biggest providers of public contracts in the

0:40:58 > 0:41:02public realm, not just in Scotland, but throughout the UK. There are

0:41:02 > 0:41:06other major players in that field whose share prices have dropped.

0:41:06 > 0:41:10Others are giving up profit warnings, so I think that the

0:41:10 > 0:41:13climate is right, to start opening up negotiations with these

0:41:13 > 0:41:19companies. It is

0:41:20 > 0:41:22companies. It is a good time to have this conversation.I am interested

0:41:22 > 0:41:25in how much of your rhetoric yesterday involved forcing people to

0:41:25 > 0:41:28do things. In that one that is up for negotiation. You also spoke

0:41:28 > 0:41:32about local authority pension funds and getting them involved in

0:41:32 > 0:41:36financing council houses. Again, presumably, this is a good idea that

0:41:36 > 0:41:39you would like to tell them, you cannot mandate local authority

0:41:39 > 0:41:45pension funds to do that?No, local authority pension schemes are

0:41:45 > 0:41:52managed by the trustees of those schemes.Exactly.But in the end

0:41:52 > 0:41:56they are accountable to the pension holders, to the employees, two

0:41:56 > 0:42:00people contributing to those schemes. To the employers

0:42:00 > 0:42:07contributing to those schemes including local authorities. So I

0:42:07 > 0:42:09think it is a perfectly sensible proposition to put the local

0:42:09 > 0:42:13authorities, to employers, who are investing in these pension schemes,

0:42:13 > 0:42:17to say, instead of putting money into stock San Siro the Far East,

0:42:17 > 0:42:22why do we not look at how we can reinvest in our local economies? Let

0:42:22 > 0:42:25us look at AB of generating steady income streams through investment in

0:42:25 > 0:42:33public housing. Also meeting the public need as well.My point is

0:42:33 > 0:42:40about forcing people to do things. Trustees of a pension fund might

0:42:40 > 0:42:43tell you, sorry, these derivatives that we are investing in, we think

0:42:43 > 0:42:47these are better deal for our pension fund members and we hear

0:42:47 > 0:42:49what you are telling us about council houses but no thank you.

0:42:49 > 0:42:59There is nothing you can do about that?My school of Democratic

0:42:59 > 0:43:01Socialism is founded on the principle of persuasion and not

0:43:01 > 0:43:03coercion. So I am not suggesting that we would seize assets or force

0:43:03 > 0:43:07people to do things, I am telling you that we would look at ways of

0:43:07 > 0:43:11bringing about a change in the culture, and behaviour and a change

0:43:11 > 0:43:17in practice. And I think it is eminently sensible to open up

0:43:17 > 0:43:22conversations and there are examples already of pension funds, Local

0:43:22 > 0:43:26Government Pension Scheme is used to invest in local infrastructure. I

0:43:26 > 0:43:30think Manchester Council, Islington Council and even Falkirk Council in

0:43:30 > 0:43:36Scotland have looked at this as a possible way forward.It is an idea

0:43:36 > 0:43:39whose time has come. When Jeremy Corbyn at your party conference

0:43:39 > 0:43:44talked about wanting to be outside the single market because he wanted

0:43:44 > 0:43:48to prevent employers from being able to import cheap agency labour to

0:43:48 > 0:43:55undercut the Labour Party -- labour in this country, Nicola Sturgeon,

0:43:55 > 0:44:00the First Minister said that he was using the sort of language that she

0:44:00 > 0:44:03is more used to hearing from Nigel Farage, that sentiment has been

0:44:03 > 0:44:10echoed today by former Secretary of State for Scotland, sorry, Shadow

0:44:10 > 0:44:13Secretary of State for Scotland, Ian Murray, and your former Deputy

0:44:13 > 0:44:18Leader, they all have a point, do they not?I think that they are

0:44:18 > 0:44:24wrong, I recognise that emotions in this debate are very high and that

0:44:24 > 0:44:27people have very strong views, about what they would like to see the

0:44:27 > 0:44:31future shape of both Scotland and the UK was mad relationship with the

0:44:31 > 0:44:34European Union look like after Brexit, but I just think that it is

0:44:34 > 0:44:41wrong to try to equate anything that Jeremy

0:44:43 > 0:44:46Jeremy Corbyn has said with Nigel Farage. Why? Because the truth of

0:44:46 > 0:44:49the matter is that Jeremy Corbyn throughout his entire life is one of

0:44:49 > 0:44:51the most anti-racist campaigners I have known, he has always stuck for

0:44:51 > 0:44:55workers' rights and represents one of the most multicultural

0:44:55 > 0:44:58constituencies with the large amount of immigration in that of any within

0:44:58 > 0:45:04the entire UK. To suggest that the Jeremy Corbyn is in anyway looking

0:45:04 > 0:45:09towards a blog to any access to the single market because of what it

0:45:09 > 0:45:16might do to migration is false.But that is precisely what he said. Let

0:45:16 > 0:45:21me read you what he said, one of the reasons for being outside the single

0:45:21 > 0:45:25market was to prevent employers being able to import cheap agency

0:45:25 > 0:45:29labour to undercut existing pain conditions in the name of free

0:45:29 > 0:45:32market orthodoxy and the point that the Nicola Sturgeon and Kezia

0:45:32 > 0:45:36Dugdale and Ian Murray would make about that is that the problem with

0:45:36 > 0:45:41undercutting pay is with the practices of employers in this

0:45:41 > 0:45:45country, who also sometimes undercut pee and do not pay the minimum wage

0:45:45 > 0:45:48to indigenous British workers. It has nothing to do with immigration

0:45:48 > 0:45:52from Europe in the manner that Jeremy Corbyn has a -- suggest the

0:45:52 > 0:45:56debtors because of cheap labour from Europe.If you are suggesting that

0:45:56 > 0:46:01the problem in that scenario is with the employer, I would agree with you

0:46:01 > 0:46:04because it is the employer who is doubly exploiting workers in that

0:46:04 > 0:46:08situation. But there is a point and it has been in the Labour Party

0:46:08 > 0:46:12manifesto in the last two elections that we would like to see a practice

0:46:12 > 0:46:20where UK

0:46:20 > 0:46:24where UK employers deliberately go out to source labour from parts of

0:46:24 > 0:46:27the European Union in order to bring them in on a less than going rate

0:46:27 > 0:46:30basis. We should be arguing for all kinds of the trade union going rate

0:46:30 > 0:46:32in these industries and that is extremely important, fundamental

0:46:32 > 0:46:37principle of the trade union movement and the Labour Party.That

0:46:37 > 0:46:41is what you implement in this country, you do not do it like you

0:46:41 > 0:46:45are suggesting, the connection with the single market is completely

0:46:45 > 0:46:52irrelevant in this case.I have watched all of my life against the

0:46:52 > 0:46:56exploitation of workers and against the double exploitation of workers,

0:46:56 > 0:47:01expressed are those who are migrant workers that are often brought in in

0:47:01 > 0:47:06order to be paid a lesser rate than the going rate for local workers. It

0:47:06 > 0:47:09is about making sure that people have equality of treatment,

0:47:09 > 0:47:15something I have walked for all of my adult life and that Jeremy Corbyn

0:47:15 > 0:47:19has campaigned for as well.Are you not embarrassed about this? Surely

0:47:19 > 0:47:26from the point of view of the Labour Party, the idea that a party with

0:47:26 > 0:47:28your international traditions can be criticised for parochialism and

0:47:28 > 0:47:34xenophobia by Scottish Nationalists... Anyon, things have

0:47:34 > 0:47:39come to a pretty pass, have they not?Scottish Nationalists hurl all

0:47:39 > 0:47:42kind of insults at the Scottish Labour Party, past, present and no

0:47:42 > 0:47:47doubt future, but I do not pay too much credence to the allegations

0:47:47 > 0:47:53that have been made. I think it is a cheap stunt to try to score a party

0:47:53 > 0:47:57political points around what is a very serious issue, because Brexit,

0:47:57 > 0:48:03no matter what you think of single market membership, Brexit is a

0:48:03 > 0:48:05hugely important political challenge that we all this and I would have

0:48:05 > 0:48:09thought that over the course of the last few weeks we have demonstrated

0:48:09 > 0:48:11the importance of cross-party working within the Scottish

0:48:11 > 0:48:17Parliament to ensure that the Continuity Bill is past.We are

0:48:17 > 0:48:23running out of time, on the single market, if you are like the majority

0:48:23 > 0:48:27possibly of the Scottish public that think it is important to stay within

0:48:27 > 0:48:30the single market, many young people believe that is the case, and

0:48:30 > 0:48:33probably a majority of your own party think it is important to

0:48:33 > 0:48:37remain in the single market, if there is a general election shortly,

0:48:37 > 0:48:40which is what both you and Jeremy Corbyn would like, it issued advice

0:48:40 > 0:48:45to be that if you want to remain in the single market, fought Scottish

0:48:45 > 0:48:50Nationalists or Lib Dem?No, because the SNP want to take us out of the

0:48:50 > 0:48:54UK single market, which is worth four times as many jobs as the

0:48:54 > 0:48:58European Union single market is the Scottish economy. So I do not think

0:48:58 > 0:49:02voting for the SNP would solve any problems whatsoever.What about

0:49:02 > 0:49:07Liberal Democrat?I do not think many people would consider the

0:49:07 > 0:49:12Liberal Democrats are on the verge of forming a UK Government.But it

0:49:12 > 0:49:17is that choice that must be made. If I vote for the Labour Party I am

0:49:17 > 0:49:22voting to come out of the single market.Gordon, the SNP can never

0:49:22 > 0:49:26form a UK Government, the Lib Dems do not look like they are going to

0:49:26 > 0:49:29form one any time now. If people would like to see a change in this

0:49:29 > 0:49:34country, they

0:49:35 > 0:49:40country, they must abort the Labour Party in. But a vote for the Labour

0:49:40 > 0:49:44Party is a vote to be the single market. No. We will debate the

0:49:44 > 0:49:46proposition that the conference this morning which will include Keir

0:49:46 > 0:49:51Starmer's six tests which include how we can reclaim the benefits of

0:49:51 > 0:49:57the single market and that is broader Labour Party stands.Richard

0:49:57 > 0:50:00Leonard, thank you very much, we will have to leave it there.Thank

0:50:00 > 0:50:06you, God, thank you so much. -- thank you Gordon.

0:50:06 > 0:50:09Over the past 40 years, The Scottish Youth Theatre has been

0:50:09 > 0:50:11responsible for kick-starting the careers of many young actors

0:50:11 > 0:50:13which have gone on to huge success, such as Karen Gillan,

0:50:13 > 0:50:15Kate Dickie and Gerard Butler.

0:50:15 > 0:50:17But this week, the organisation announced its imminent closure,

0:50:17 > 0:50:19after failing to secure regular funding from the arts

0:50:19 > 0:50:20agency, Creative Scotland.

0:50:20 > 0:50:23A campaign's been launched to keep the youth theatre open.

0:50:23 > 0:50:24At the same time, there have been questions about

0:50:24 > 0:50:25the funding decision.

0:50:25 > 0:50:29In a moment we'll hear from the boss of Creative Scotland, but first,

0:50:29 > 0:50:31Andrew Black reports on what's been a tense week for

0:50:31 > 0:50:39the arts in Scotland.

0:50:45 > 0:50:50Add these Scottish Youth Theatre's based in Glasgow, young actors are

0:50:50 > 0:50:54walking on a performance based on the theme of taking audacious steps.

0:50:54 > 0:50:58These performers been working as a part of the year Theatre's national

0:50:58 > 0:51:03ensemble, which will tour Scotland in the summer. As things stand, it

0:51:03 > 0:51:07could be the last production it ever puts on. For these performance, it

0:51:07 > 0:51:14is vital the Youth Theatre stays open.There are rather youth

0:51:14 > 0:51:17theatres, but there aren't ones that can say they are Scotland's youth

0:51:17 > 0:51:26Theatre. I've worked with people from as far afield as Orkney and

0:51:26 > 0:51:29Shetland and Inverness and Dumfries, it is encompassing of everyone in

0:51:29 > 0:51:36Scotland.What SYT does is provide extraordinary support for young

0:51:36 > 0:51:43people who are not just going to be actors, but support staff as well.

0:51:43 > 0:51:52The bosses say it may close this summer. A third of its budget is

0:51:52 > 0:51:56provided but limited funds means it may not be able to support the Youth

0:51:56 > 0:52:01Theatre. One way it hopes to continue is through securing direct

0:52:01 > 0:52:06funding as part of national company status for the Youth Theatre.Were

0:52:06 > 0:52:09not looking for a simple hand-out. We want to be strategic with this.

0:52:09 > 0:52:16We have a way to go to court weird that title, but we're absolutely a

0:52:16 > 0:52:21day for that. I just hope there is enough of a conversation that can

0:52:21 > 0:52:29get us somewhere quickly, because time is not on our side.Actress

0:52:29 > 0:52:33Kate Dickie is one of several international stars forgot how had

0:52:33 > 0:52:39to make Scottish Youth Theatre.I feel we have to fight to keep SYT

0:52:39 > 0:52:47going. It offers something unique. Unique to our country and to bring

0:52:47 > 0:52:52any kids and young people from all over to work together and put on

0:52:52 > 0:52:56plays, not just acting, directing, writing -

0:52:56 > 0:53:01it keeps that pathway open for our young people.The theatre has had

0:53:01 > 0:53:05some good news - and entrepreneur has put up cash to

0:53:05 > 0:53:08allow the year theatre as Mike national ensemble to tour in the

0:53:08 > 0:53:16summer.I spent time with the ensemble this week, these are young

0:53:16 > 0:53:21kids ranging from 13 upwards. The immediate thing you notice is their

0:53:21 > 0:53:27confidence. It is bubbling out of them. Big ten sing, they can dance,

0:53:27 > 0:53:34they can do anything. Just at the drop of a hat, at an age where I

0:53:34 > 0:53:39would've run a from something like that. You can see that plays a huge

0:53:39 > 0:53:46role in their own self-esteem and confidence.It has been a tense time

0:53:46 > 0:53:50at the Scottish Youth Theatre, its leaders are hoping to agree a

0:53:50 > 0:53:55long-term future solution when they meet the Scottish Government next

0:53:55 > 0:53:57week. Meanwhile, greater Scotland says it is working with the theatre

0:53:57 > 0:54:02and other funding options. -- Creative Scotland says it is working

0:54:02 > 0:54:07with the Theatre.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11I am joined by Janet Archer, the chief executive Creative Scotland.

0:54:11 > 0:54:16Why did you stop their money?

0:54:16 > 0:54:19They made an application last year alongside 184 other organisations

0:54:19 > 0:54:29for a pot of money which was about £33 million a year. We weren't able

0:54:29 > 0:54:37to find all the applications.But waiting to fund then?Obviously, I

0:54:37 > 0:54:42can't go into the detail of the application, what I can say is I had

0:54:42 > 0:54:46a good conversation with Jacky Hardacre on Friday, she told me she

0:54:46 > 0:54:49is not asking for a reversal of the decision we made about regular

0:54:49 > 0:54:54funding. We have been talking to Scottish Youth Theatre about other

0:54:54 > 0:54:55options in terms of Creative Scotland funding and we will

0:54:55 > 0:55:02continue to do that.So they are not now asking for the money?Scottish

0:55:02 > 0:55:06Youth Theatre is asking for funding, they have accepted that regular

0:55:06 > 0:55:10funding decisions have been made, so were talking about project funding,

0:55:10 > 0:55:15a different programme that we run. We find 121 organisations through

0:55:15 > 0:55:22regular funding. We funded last year 321 organisations through project

0:55:22 > 0:55:25funding, the type of funding we are talking about now. It is a different

0:55:25 > 0:55:32form of funding, not the same amounts, but can apply for up to two

0:55:32 > 0:55:37years' funding. For more than one project, and it is flexible, you

0:55:37 > 0:55:41don't have to wait for a deadline, in the wake that you have with

0:55:41 > 0:55:46regular funding.Silica get some of this project funding, perhaps?Is

0:55:46 > 0:55:53because an application, they could. -- if they put in an application,

0:55:53 > 0:55:59they could. It helps if they have partners on board. With regular

0:55:59 > 0:56:04funding, Creative Scotland is about 22% of the overall mix, so there is

0:56:04 > 0:56:09a range of other backers and supporters. It Scottish Youth

0:56:09 > 0:56:13Theatre is able to galvanise support from other places and the master us

0:56:13 > 0:56:19for a funding application of a different kind -- come to us for an

0:56:19 > 0:56:24application of a different kind... The point of regular funding as it

0:56:24 > 0:56:26helps an organisation plan ahead over a number of years. You're

0:56:26 > 0:56:35simply can't do that?You can apply for up to two years through project

0:56:35 > 0:56:39funding. It's not the same as regular funding.What kind of money

0:56:39 > 0:56:45were talking about? They £200,000, their budget is around 600,000 a

0:56:45 > 0:56:52year. I were talking about much less than that with project funding?The

0:56:52 > 0:56:58guidelines say you can apply for up to £200,000 or 150 with

0:56:58 > 0:57:06permission...Is that per annum or per project?Per project, but some

0:57:06 > 0:57:11organisations have managed to work project funding in a way that helps

0:57:11 > 0:57:18them the more flexible.To be clear, what you seem to be suggesting is

0:57:18 > 0:57:22that if they put an application for project funding, they could in

0:57:22 > 0:57:25theory end up with the same matter money they got out of regular

0:57:25 > 0:57:31funding?That is possible. It is under huge pressure, so we are only

0:57:31 > 0:57:37able to fund one in three of applications that come in. However

0:57:37 > 0:57:41there is a possibility that Scottish Youth Theatre good apply for project

0:57:41 > 0:57:46funding and be successful.I still don't quite understand the widely

0:57:46 > 0:57:53can get regular funding? I take your point that you have a lot of

0:57:53 > 0:57:58applications, a but this is a long-standing organisation that has

0:57:58 > 0:58:02been successful, why did you decide now that you couldn't continue to

0:58:02 > 0:58:07fund them on a regular basis? Obviously, we had to make decisions

0:58:07 > 0:58:12based on the application were received at the time, which was last

0:58:12 > 0:58:15April. We had more applications... The implication is that the

0:58:15 > 0:58:21applications from people who got money had more merit?We base our

0:58:21 > 0:58:27decisions based on the merit of the applications we received. We also

0:58:27 > 0:58:30wanted to extend opportunity for audiences and people across Scotland

0:58:30 > 0:58:38to be able to access the range of art forms and companies of different

0:58:38 > 0:58:44sizes across the country. So we had to look at the applications that

0:58:44 > 0:58:50came into us. We assess them on their strengths of artistic content

0:58:50 > 0:59:00and management validity. Some of the others were better, yes. When

0:59:00 > 0:59:07organisations are not successful, that is the case.One of the options

0:59:07 > 0:59:11under discussion is the idea of becoming a national company, which

0:59:11 > 0:59:14is a technical designation which means your money would not come from

0:59:14 > 0:59:18you at Creative Scotland, rather directly from the Scottish

0:59:18 > 0:59:26Government. Do you think it's a good idea for them to get that statist?

0:59:26 > 0:59:31That's for the Government to consider, I don't think it is

0:59:31 > 0:59:34appropriate for me to comment on that just now.But and might be

0:59:34 > 0:59:44helpful to then if you were to say you supported that?We're

0:59:44 > 0:59:51disappointed they didn't talk to us about this subject, because we are

0:59:51 > 0:59:57in dialogue with them until a few days ago and having what we thought

0:59:57 > 1:00:01were productive conversations and relations to options around funding

1:00:01 > 1:00:05elsewhere.Are using that if they told you they might have to close

1:00:05 > 1:00:12down, you would have given them some money?We will continue the

1:00:12 > 1:00:16conversations around alternative funding, not just from Creative

1:00:16 > 1:00:20Scotland, because we are only one part of the mix. I think at some for

1:00:20 > 1:00:29everyone to recognise that a our funding in the overall mix is 22%.

1:00:29 > 1:00:33Can you perhaps not give a guarantee, but some sort of

1:00:33 > 1:00:38guarantee, do you think that between yourself and the other people you've

1:00:38 > 1:00:44been talking about getting involved in this, perhaps, you can stop this

1:00:44 > 1:00:46organisation having to close in July, as they say they may have

1:00:46 > 1:00:52today?We have been having serious conversations about options with

1:00:52 > 1:01:00Scottish Youth Theatre, we as a normalisation understand Youth

1:01:00 > 1:01:06Theatre very well, I started my own career at the Welsh Youth Theatre,

1:01:06 > 1:01:10we would hope everyone with a stake in Scottish Youth Theatre's future

1:01:10 > 1:01:17to come forward. They have a magnificent voice in support across

1:01:17 > 1:01:23the country.We have to leave it there. Thank you for coming in this

1:01:23 > 1:01:31morning.Thank you.

1:01:31 > 1:01:33To explore the future of the Scottish Youth Theatre

1:01:33 > 1:01:36a little further, I'm joined now by Joan McAlpine MSP,

1:01:36 > 1:01:38who's the convener of Holyrood's Culture Committee.

1:01:38 > 1:01:44First, I want is BT about Richard Leonard. Nicola Sturgeon said he had

1:01:44 > 1:01:50-- Nicola Sturgeon said Jeremy Corbyn had used language that

1:01:50 > 1:01:56sounded like Nigel Farage, which was flatly rejected by Richard Leonard?

1:01:56 > 1:01:59I think it was disappointing Richard Leonard didn't condemn it, because

1:01:59 > 1:02:05that type of language used by Nigel Farage and others whips up

1:02:05 > 1:02:07aggression towards immigrants as we have seen that since the Brexit

1:02:07 > 1:02:12vote. I

1:02:13 > 1:02:15vote. I think it's our role as responsible politicians to speak

1:02:15 > 1:02:21against that. I agree that immigrants have contributed

1:02:21 > 1:02:24enormously to this country and politicians in the Labour Party

1:02:24 > 1:02:29should be doing the same thing.As a reason for staying outside the

1:02:29 > 1:02:34single market, you will buy it?It is absurd. Richard Leonard talks

1:02:34 > 1:02:42about his credentials as a trade unionist, trade unions once us to

1:02:42 > 1:02:50stay in the single market. In the SNP, we want powers to come to the

1:02:50 > 1:02:56Scottish Parliament but the Scottish Labour Party didn't support us in

1:02:56 > 1:03:01that.OK, Scottish Youth Theatre, you heard Janet Archer, the message

1:03:01 > 1:03:08seems to be that we might well come up with money?I think this exposes

1:03:08 > 1:03:14a real problem with creative Scotland's regular funding process.

1:03:14 > 1:03:21A couple of weeks ago, my committee had Janet Archer in the chair in

1:03:21 > 1:03:25front of the test act and were dissatisfied with the answers given

1:03:25 > 1:03:28on how they make those decisions. This isn't the first decision they

1:03:28 > 1:03:32have reversed. Although they are not talking about reversing this

1:03:32 > 1:03:37particular decision, Ducati the reverse decisions a couple of weeks

1:03:37 > 1:03:40ago as a result of outcry, and they admitted before my committee the

1:03:40 > 1:03:46process needed reviewed and they came and gave an apology. So you

1:03:46 > 1:03:50then have to look at organisations like Scottish Youth Theatre who were

1:03:50 > 1:03:56not successful in that process that Janet Archer has already said was

1:03:56 > 1:04:01flawed, no wonder they are upset. She says they spoke to him and they

1:04:01 > 1:04:07no longer want the regular funding? They said they had been in dialogue

1:04:07 > 1:04:12with Creative Scotland since the decision was made, but I have been

1:04:12 > 1:04:16speaking to the Scottish Youth Theatre and they told me they had

1:04:16 > 1:04:23had one meeting with Creative Scotland when they were told there

1:04:23 > 1:04:27is open project funding and nothing else. This is a process that takes

1:04:27 > 1:04:31time. Other companies that missed out on regular funding were offered

1:04:31 > 1:04:36transitional funding. Scottish Youth Theatre were not, because they

1:04:36 > 1:04:40weren't previously regularly funded organisation. They had been here

1:04:40 > 1:04:44before, Creative Scotland four years ago wouldn't fund the Scottish Youth

1:04:44 > 1:04:48Theatre and the Scottish Government had to come in then. I know the

1:04:48 > 1:04:52Scottish Government is working hard on getting something together,

1:04:52 > 1:04:57because I don't think you can treat this organisation this in way as

1:04:57 > 1:05:02others. This is our National Youth Theatre. The arts Council of England

1:05:02 > 1:05:11find a National Youth Theatre. Janet mentioned her background in Wales.

1:05:11 > 1:05:14If this was something going on in Scottish Ballet or opera, you

1:05:14 > 1:05:20wouldn't close them down, you would find a way to fix it.That brings up

1:05:20 > 1:05:26another point, the companies you've mentioned, these so-called national

1:05:26 > 1:05:28companies, they're directly funded by the Government, not Creative

1:05:28 > 1:05:32Scotland. One idea is that the Scottish Youth Theatre could become

1:05:32 > 1:05:37a national company. The woman who runs it said that she had a way to

1:05:37 > 1:05:41go to get to that stage, do you think that would be a good idea?I

1:05:41 > 1:05:48think that was honest of Jacky. We have a number of national companies,

1:05:48 > 1:05:52one particular dance company did get regular funding from Creative

1:05:52 > 1:05:58Scotland, and there are used for choirs who get that funding as well.

1:05:58 > 1:06:01You would have to look at the National youth performing companies

1:06:01 > 1:06:06as a whole. The Government has a great strategy for developing a

1:06:06 > 1:06:10youth arts and it is very much about giving access to everyone and

1:06:10 > 1:06:18setting up youth hugs all over the country. There is another strand,

1:06:18 > 1:06:22which is your elite youth performing companies, if you like, of your most

1:06:22 > 1:06:26talented youngsters. Perhaps we need to think a little differently about

1:06:26 > 1:06:32that. In sports, we want all young people to have access to sports,

1:06:32 > 1:06:36Akashi we agree there are very talented youngsters who could go on

1:06:36 > 1:06:41medal at Olympic Games, and they have additional investment. I think

1:06:41 > 1:06:46that is the wager bethank you very much.

1:06:46 > 1:06:48Now it's time to look back over events and forwards

1:06:48 > 1:06:51to the week ahead.

1:06:51 > 1:06:54I'm joined now by a comedian who's also a political commentator

1:06:54 > 1:06:56and former political adviser to senior Labour politicians,

1:06:56 > 1:06:57Ayesha Hazarika.

1:06:57 > 1:06:59And alongside her, the political editor

1:06:59 > 1:07:00of the Daily Record, David Clegg.

1:07:00 > 1:07:07Welcome both.

1:07:07 > 1:07:12Richard Leonard, these remarks that were very controversial that Jeremy

1:07:12 > 1:07:16Corbyn made and have been criticised by Nicola Sturgeon and by Ian Murray

1:07:16 > 1:07:21and Kezia Dugdale, what do you make of that? Do the Labour Party need to

1:07:21 > 1:07:29tread carefully?Yes, I think so. I worry that this was more a badly

1:07:29 > 1:07:33written line in the speech. I am not sure that some of the context that

1:07:33 > 1:07:38has been taken from it is correct. Jeremy Corbyn has spoken in the past

1:07:38 > 1:07:41about the way that immigration and freedom of movement could

1:07:41 > 1:07:49potentially lower wages. Is there any evidence for that, it is

1:07:49 > 1:07:51difficult to pinpoint Evra is. But that is a different discussion to

1:07:51 > 1:07:59suggest that he does not want migrants coming in.That is a

1:07:59 > 1:08:04different issue. What do you make of it?Do you agree with David that the

1:08:04 > 1:08:06language could have been different? I was surprised that Jeremy Corbyn

1:08:06 > 1:08:11went there. It was clumsy, whenever the Labour Party goes into talking

1:08:11 > 1:08:16about immigration, it is difficult. Yes, Gordon Brown talking about

1:08:16 > 1:08:21British jobs for British workers.We had an immigration mug that went

1:08:21 > 1:08:26down badly at the 2015 campaign. To take a step back, immigration was a

1:08:26 > 1:08:34huge issue in terms of the Brexit vote and was Labour Party members

1:08:34 > 1:08:37are comfortable with it or not, at some point we will have the article

1:08:37 > 1:08:41it a policy on immigration. The idea of equating Jeremy Corbyn to Nigel

1:08:41 > 1:08:46Farage is ridiculous. The criticism against them was that he was someone

1:08:46 > 1:08:48who wanted open borders, Nigel Farage has said that people from

1:08:48 > 1:08:57other countries are ripping off our NHS, he said that people from other

1:08:57 > 1:08:59countries are bringing diseases and things like that.Arguably, even

1:08:59 > 1:09:01from inside the Labour Party, presumably, the argument would be

1:09:01 > 1:09:05that that kind of language that Jeremy Corbyn used is giving the

1:09:05 > 1:09:09opportunity to other organisations, quality the SNP of the Lib Dems are

1:09:09 > 1:09:15the Conservatives, to suggest otherwise. This is dog resting.Any

1:09:15 > 1:09:18time you talk about immigration there is that danger. What he said

1:09:18 > 1:09:21was about trying to stamp out exploitation which we would all

1:09:21 > 1:09:26agree with. There has been a list out this week of companies in the UK

1:09:26 > 1:09:30that are not paying the minimum wage and many staff that are not getting

1:09:30 > 1:09:34that the minimum wage are migrants. I say this as the daughter of

1:09:34 > 1:09:41immigrants, you have to protect everyone across the piece.

1:09:42 > 1:09:45everyone across the piece. But what I also think is happening is

1:09:45 > 1:09:48politics within the Labour Party. David, on that, if this fact

1:09:48 > 1:09:52becoming this conference that one sentence or half a sentence, a

1:09:52 > 1:09:57surrogate for a division of the single market?I think the single

1:09:57 > 1:10:02market is a surrogate for a wider division. The hard left and the

1:10:02 > 1:10:07moderates. On immigration, a final point, it is a failure of all the

1:10:07 > 1:10:10political parties that they have not made the case for immigration, they

1:10:10 > 1:10:14have been scared about what voters think on this and they have been

1:10:14 > 1:10:17hesitant to actually suggest that immigration could be great for the

1:10:17 > 1:10:21country and this is why. It leads to problems when you talk about that

1:10:21 > 1:10:26issue. On the wider point of the single market we have seen this big

1:10:26 > 1:10:29bunfight in the last two days at the Scottish Labour Party Conference

1:10:29 > 1:10:34about other this morning there would be a vote on the single market or

1:10:34 > 1:10:37not and the immigration issue plays into that but it is about a wider

1:10:37 > 1:10:44split in the party which is between supporters of Jeremy Corbyn and

1:10:44 > 1:10:47moderates. The idea that the hard left suddenly is not for the single

1:10:47 > 1:10:50market and the moderates are all for it, they are mapping themselves onto

1:10:50 > 1:10:58this division based on a wider split.But there is the issue of how

1:10:58 > 1:11:00radical Richard Leonard and Jeremy Corbyn really are. That was my point

1:11:00 > 1:11:08in asking Richard Leonard about PFI contracts, because it sounded like a

1:11:08 > 1:11:11revolutionist speech! It turns out all he really means was that we will

1:11:11 > 1:11:19have a chat with these companies and we might ask them to the negotiate

1:11:19 > 1:11:22but there's not much that they can do about it.There are some

1:11:22 > 1:11:25explosive headlines and then when you drill down to it, it is being

1:11:25 > 1:11:28dealt with on a case-by-case basis. What is interesting is that Jeremy

1:11:28 > 1:11:32Corbyn gets elected as this terrifying sort of radical, and as

1:11:32 > 1:11:36he is doing better and better than the polls, and that the last general

1:11:36 > 1:11:40election, in some ways, you find that the closer they get to power or

1:11:40 > 1:11:44the perception of power, they are starting to moderate their views and

1:11:44 > 1:11:48try to find some compromises. I think that is interesting politics.

1:11:48 > 1:11:53You could argue that as the old politics rather than the new

1:11:53 > 1:11:57politics. Remember, Jeremy Corbyn went into the last general election

1:11:57 > 1:12:00campaign having campaigned against Trident his whole adult life,

1:12:00 > 1:12:05compromising and suggesting they would put the renewal of Trident in

1:12:05 > 1:12:09the general election manifesto.The danger, particularly for young

1:12:09 > 1:12:13people that flock to the Labour Party over the past few years, is

1:12:13 > 1:12:16that if it turns out that all of this radical stuff is really just

1:12:16 > 1:12:19the same as what moderate Labour is saying when it comes down to brass

1:12:19 > 1:12:24tacks, they will not be very impressed.I do think there has been

1:12:24 > 1:12:27a distinct shift in the radical vision of what they want to do in

1:12:27 > 1:12:37the future. When you are talking about a private company...

1:12:37 > 1:12:39about a private company... I was in Dundee, Ninewells Hospital is a

1:12:39 > 1:12:43running sore in that city, it is one of the few hospitals will be have to

1:12:43 > 1:12:46pay for car parking and they are making money from that. The buyout

1:12:46 > 1:12:48that contract would cost the government a lot of money and that

1:12:48 > 1:12:51is probably why it has not been done by the current Scottish Government.

1:12:51 > 1:12:53But going forward he has suggested that they will take private

1:12:53 > 1:12:55companies out of the health service and that is a fundamental

1:12:55 > 1:13:02difference. So I believe that there is radical and intent, but whether

1:13:02 > 1:13:05you can retrofitted to the previous policies, I take that point, it is

1:13:05 > 1:13:07difficult, you cannot just rip up contracts without paying penalties.

1:13:07 > 1:13:14We will have to leave it there. Thank you both. Are you sure, people

1:13:14 > 1:13:20can come to see you as a stand-up comic, no longer as a political

1:13:20 > 1:13:24advisor!Some people would suggest you could put a cigarette paper

1:13:24 > 1:13:28between the two! Yes, I am on tonight at 8pm.Is it easy to sell

1:13:28 > 1:13:33tickets?You would be surprised! Politics and comedy are so close

1:13:33 > 1:13:36together right now.Thank you both.

1:13:36 > 1:13:39That's all from us this week.

1:13:39 > 1:13:40I'll be back at the same time next week.

1:13:40 > 1:13:45Until then, goodbye.