18/03/2018

0:00:39 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:44And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing

0:00:44 > 0:00:46on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:46 > 0:00:49world of politics.

0:00:49 > 0:00:52The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia of "smug sarcasm, denial,

0:00:52 > 0:00:54obfuscation and delay" in relation to the Salisbury poisoning case.

0:00:54 > 0:01:00As the diplomatic dispute continues, where will this crisis go next?

0:01:00 > 0:01:02Police launch a murder inquiry in to the death

0:01:02 > 0:01:03of another Russian exile.

0:01:03 > 0:01:06So how many other deaths in Britain are potentially linked to Russia?

0:01:06 > 0:01:09We speak to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:01:09 > 0:01:13Should transgender women be included on Labour's all-women short lists?

0:01:13 > 0:01:16The party postpones a final decision.

0:01:16 > 0:01:18While a government consultation on changing the law

0:01:18 > 0:01:19appears to be on hold.

0:01:19 > 0:01:24Has the debate on transgender rights become toxic?

0:01:24 > 0:01:26And on Sunday Politics Scotland, we'll be hearing from two

0:01:26 > 0:01:28politicians who've been on the receiving

0:01:28 > 0:01:29end of racial abuse.

0:01:29 > 0:01:31Also, are we a soft touch when it comes to laundering

0:01:31 > 0:01:34"dirty" Russian money?

0:01:42 > 0:01:45And with me today a panel of political insiders helping me

0:01:45 > 0:01:51to make sense of all the big stories:

0:01:51 > 0:01:54Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott and Lucy Fisher.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has already been out this

0:01:56 > 0:01:58morning to cast his vote in the Presidential elections.

0:01:58 > 0:02:00We'll be expecting the result later this evening,

0:02:00 > 0:02:03but you can probably guess who the frontrunner is.

0:02:03 > 0:02:06It comes at the end of a week in which UK-Russia relations turned

0:02:06 > 0:02:09positively sub-zero.

0:02:09 > 0:02:10President Putin.

0:02:10 > 0:02:12BBC News.

0:02:12 > 0:02:15Is Russia behind the poisoning of Sergei Skripal?

0:02:15 > 0:02:17This week the finger of blame for the Salisbury attack was

0:02:17 > 0:02:20pointed firmly in one direction.

0:02:21 > 0:02:23TRANSLATION:First, work out what actually happened

0:02:23 > 0:02:27there and then we'll talk about it.

0:02:27 > 0:02:29A deadline imposed by the British government

0:02:29 > 0:02:32calling on the Russians to provide answers came and went.

0:02:32 > 0:02:34The Prime Minister headed to the Commons to update MPs.

0:02:34 > 0:02:37They have treated the use of a military grade nerve agent

0:02:37 > 0:02:44in Europe with sarcasm, contempt and defiance.

0:02:44 > 0:02:50The only conclusion, she declared, was that the Russian state

0:02:50 > 0:02:53was responsible for the nerve agent attack on the Russian double agent

0:02:53 > 0:02:55Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

0:02:55 > 0:02:5823 Russian diplomats based here accused of being spies are to

0:02:58 > 0:03:00be kicked out of the country.

0:03:00 > 0:03:02Moscow responded by expelling 23 British

0:03:02 > 0:03:07embassy staff.

0:03:07 > 0:03:10UK-Russia relations are well and truly in the deep freeze.

0:03:10 > 0:03:12The Prime Minister's response to the crisis has

0:03:12 > 0:03:13won her some new fans.

0:03:13 > 0:03:15Hello.

0:03:15 > 0:03:18She got flowers and fist bumps in Salisbury on Thursday.

0:03:18 > 0:03:20The Defence Secretary had his own idiosyncratic message for Moscow.

0:03:20 > 0:03:25Frankly, Russia should go away, it should shut up.

0:03:25 > 0:03:28Go away, it should shut up.

0:03:28 > 0:03:32The Foreign Secretary escalated the row by going

0:03:32 > 0:03:34further and directly accusing Vladimir Putin of personally

0:03:34 > 0:03:36ordering the poisoning.

0:03:36 > 0:03:39Our quarrel is with Putin's Kremlin and with his

0:03:39 > 0:03:45decision, and we think it overwhelmingly likely that it was

0:03:45 > 0:03:47his decision, to direct the use of a nerve agent.

0:03:47 > 0:03:50Convention dictates that parties often come

0:03:50 > 0:03:53together on major foreign policy issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a

0:03:53 > 0:03:56conventional politician.

0:03:56 > 0:03:59How has she responded to the Russian

0:03:59 > 0:04:03government's request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury

0:04:03 > 0:04:08attack to run its own tests?

0:04:08 > 0:04:09Shameful!

0:04:09 > 0:04:12That did not go down too well with some

0:04:12 > 0:04:16of his own MPs who tabled a motion expressing their support for the

0:04:16 > 0:04:17Prime Minister's response.

0:04:17 > 0:04:19But Mr Corbyn held his line, arguing in

0:04:19 > 0:04:21Friday's Guardian that we ought not to discount the possibility that

0:04:21 > 0:04:26Russian mafia gangs could have carried out the attack.

0:04:26 > 0:04:28Labour frontbenchers not exactly been

0:04:28 > 0:04:32toeing that line.

0:04:32 > 0:04:34We fully support the Government's action because we

0:04:34 > 0:04:35hold Russia responsible.

0:04:35 > 0:04:36There is no alternative explanation other than

0:04:36 > 0:04:40that responsibility lies with Russia.

0:04:40 > 0:04:42The US, France and Germany issued a joint statement of support

0:04:42 > 0:04:43for the UK.

0:04:43 > 0:04:45It's a very sad situation.

0:04:45 > 0:04:47It certainly looks like the Russians were behind it.

0:04:47 > 0:04:49Something that should never ever happen.

0:04:49 > 0:04:54Today is election day in Russia.

0:04:54 > 0:04:56And this crisis seems unlikely to hurt Putin's chances of

0:04:56 > 0:05:02re-election as Russia's President.

0:05:02 > 0:05:05So to pick up some of that news with our panel.

0:05:05 > 0:05:11Lucy, later this week the National Security Council will meet to talk

0:05:11 > 0:05:14about what further action the UK Government Meite, they briefed the

0:05:14 > 0:05:17BBC there is more in the locker, that was the phrase the useful

0:05:17 > 0:05:21support any idea what they might do next?There is a whole suite of

0:05:21 > 0:05:25options available to the government, the idea of clamp-down on visas for

0:05:25 > 0:05:27dubious Russian businessmen and their allies wanting to travel to

0:05:27 > 0:05:31the UK, there is talk on pulling the plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

0:05:31 > 0:05:37broadcaster with Ruth Davidson calling for that they. The most

0:05:37 > 0:05:41important action the government could take is on the wealth, the

0:05:41 > 0:05:48Kremlin gold, and money swilling around the UK invested here by

0:05:48 > 0:05:51Russian oligarchs are linked to the Kremlin.Boss of people from Russian

0:05:51 > 0:05:56politician stomach opposition politicians who think would be the

0:05:56 > 0:05:59most effective route. That's what Labour are calling for and we

0:05:59 > 0:06:02haven't really heard that's what action the government will go in.

0:06:02 > 0:06:07These are quite short-term measures. What we're looking on with Russia is

0:06:07 > 0:06:10a much wider, long-term problem. What a lot of people in defence

0:06:10 > 0:06:14circles talk about is a more asymmetrical response, so rather

0:06:14 > 0:06:18than in addition to the measures Lucy has articulated, you need to

0:06:18 > 0:06:23look at the whole suite of things in terms of the disinformation campaign

0:06:23 > 0:06:28that Russia puts out, we need to look at where we can niggle Russia

0:06:28 > 0:06:32by supporting Ukraine a bit, supporting states like Azerbaijan

0:06:32 > 0:06:36and a much more hybrid response, I think.Matt Zarb-Cousin is, there

0:06:36 > 0:06:40has been a lot of discussion about Jeremy Corbyn's response to this

0:06:40 > 0:06:44this week. I'm interested, you know him well, give us an insight into

0:06:44 > 0:06:48what he is thinking. He supports the Government's actions while not being

0:06:48 > 0:06:51sure about the conclusion that the Russian state was responsible. Why

0:06:51 > 0:06:55support what they are doing if we don't support the conclusion?I

0:06:55 > 0:06:58think the Russian state is culpable and the Labour Party recognises

0:06:58 > 0:07:02that. I think we all agree that it isn't a proportionate response, it

0:07:02 > 0:07:06goes nowhere near far enough if the Russian state is culpable, to just

0:07:06 > 0:07:10expel 23 diplomats and say to the Royal family they are not going to

0:07:10 > 0:07:13the World Cup. So they have to find out obviously if the Russian state

0:07:13 > 0:07:18is culpable, and then once they have the evidence for that then obviously

0:07:18 > 0:07:22build that international coalition where we can actually take

0:07:22 > 0:07:24meaningful action, not these tokenistic measures. Even closing

0:07:24 > 0:07:29down Russia's Russia Today emboldens Putin, look at the West, they can

0:07:29 > 0:07:37censor, he will say. What we really have to do is go after Putin's kind

0:07:37 > 0:07:41of circle. There is oligarchs here, whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,

0:07:41 > 0:07:46who have been allowed to settle here and stow away their money here and

0:07:46 > 0:07:50they have been affected by Putin. If they are then affected by Putin, if

0:07:50 > 0:07:54we say you have to leave, then that is a very powerful coalition you are

0:07:54 > 0:07:59building against him.But Jeremy Corbyn still isn't convinced that

0:07:59 > 0:08:02the Russian state itself is responsible.No, neither is the

0:08:02 > 0:08:08government.He wouldn't back these actions until they were proved.It

0:08:08 > 0:08:12would be naive, it would be difficult to build an international

0:08:12 > 0:08:15coalition. Even the statement that Germany France and the US put out,

0:08:15 > 0:08:19the joint statement, said the nerve agent was of a type developed by

0:08:19 > 0:08:23Russia, not that it was developed by Russia. It looks increasingly likely

0:08:23 > 0:08:26that that nerve agent came from Russia and Russia have lost control

0:08:26 > 0:08:30of it, or have used it maliciously, but we don't know that yet and it's

0:08:30 > 0:08:34very difficult to take action until we do.There is a kind of false

0:08:34 > 0:08:39dichotomy here in this idea that somehow elements of Russian Mafia

0:08:39 > 0:08:43might be responsible. Welcome potentially they could be, but the

0:08:43 > 0:08:45idea that the Russian Mafia is in some way completely distinct from

0:08:45 > 0:08:50the Kremlin is a misunderstanding. In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

0:08:50 > 0:08:55extra typically linked to the Kremlin. They are a sort of

0:08:55 > 0:08:59paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so it is a false dichotomy.Lucy,

0:08:59 > 0:09:03Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot of flak for his response this week.

0:09:03 > 0:09:07Isn't it legitimate to be asking these questions when, as Matt says,

0:09:07 > 0:09:13even the French, US and German governments don't seem this --

0:09:13 > 0:09:18convinced this is state directed? Early in the week we saw some level

0:09:18 > 0:09:21of prevarication by Paris, Berlin and Washington and that has firmed

0:09:21 > 0:09:23up a lot. I think the quite unprecedented international joint

0:09:23 > 0:09:29statement put out by those allies and the UK goes a lot further than

0:09:29 > 0:09:33you say, Matt. I don't think it's as equivocal as perhaps you suggested.

0:09:33 > 0:09:38Some of the questions Jeremy Corbyn asks will kind of strike a chord

0:09:38 > 0:09:43with much of the public. I think, in particular, raising questions about

0:09:43 > 0:09:46the intelligence and exactly what is known is something that people will

0:09:46 > 0:09:51be thinking about in light of the 2003 Iraq War and some of the

0:09:51 > 0:09:55evidence being politically sexed up, people want to know that that's not

0:09:55 > 0:10:01the case here.Briefly.We don't know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

0:10:01 > 0:10:05had access to in terms of the intelligence as well. It could well

0:10:05 > 0:10:09be that the government... Boris Johnson and the Defence Secretary

0:10:09 > 0:10:11Gavin Williamson have gone much further and said... Boris Johnson

0:10:11 > 0:10:16said it is Putin.Overwhelmingly likely.Williamson said they should

0:10:16 > 0:10:21shut up and go away, or whatever he said. That suggests to me they are

0:10:21 > 0:10:24either going off message or they have seen more evidence that perhaps

0:10:24 > 0:10:27Corbyn has not seen.These are questions we will explore throughout

0:10:27 > 0:10:31the show and if you stay with us we will talk to you throughout the

0:10:31 > 0:10:31programme.

0:10:31 > 0:10:34Well, let's stick with this story because the Foreign Secretary has

0:10:34 > 0:10:36been speaking on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

0:10:36 > 0:10:39He was asked how the Government could be certain that the Russian

0:10:39 > 0:10:41Government was responsible for the attack.

0:10:41 > 0:10:46We actually have evidence within the last ten years that Russia has not

0:10:46 > 0:10:50only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of

0:10:50 > 0:10:55assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok.

0:10:55 > 0:11:01To the best of our knowledge, this is a Russian-made nerve agent that

0:11:01 > 0:11:05falls within the category Novichok, made only by Russia.

0:11:05 > 0:11:09I'm joined now by the Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

0:11:09 > 0:11:13Thank you for talking to us this morning. Russia have responded, as

0:11:13 > 0:11:22you know, to our expansion -- expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by

0:11:22 > 0:11:25closing the consulate in St Petersburg. Is there a second phase

0:11:25 > 0:11:29of government action that will need to be reintroduced in order to take

0:11:29 > 0:11:36this further?We have lots of options. But this isn't just about

0:11:36 > 0:11:41counting heads. This is really about making clear to the world that one

0:11:41 > 0:11:45of the great achievements of the world since the Second World War,

0:11:45 > 0:11:49which is a convention to ban chemical weapons, has been violated.

0:11:49 > 0:11:56And it is clearly traceable back to a military grade nerve agent of

0:11:56 > 0:11:59Russian origin. We said to the Russians either you did it directly

0:11:59 > 0:12:03or you have lost control of this, tell us which. They basically just

0:12:03 > 0:12:09stuck their tongue out at us. Their irresponsible response to this

0:12:09 > 0:12:13points ever more to them as having done this, and so the response that

0:12:13 > 0:12:17we have done I think is proportionate. Yes, they have

0:12:17 > 0:12:19responded back. But what matters more than anything else is not that

0:12:19 > 0:12:23we now go into some kind of tit-for-tat stuff by accounting

0:12:23 > 0:12:27exact numbers and things like that, is that we actually corral the whole

0:12:27 > 0:12:32world to realise that Russia is totally out of order here and that

0:12:32 > 0:12:35the Chemical Weapons Convention has been violated in a way that could do

0:12:35 > 0:12:40enormous damage to the world in any country this happens to happen in,

0:12:40 > 0:12:44in this case the UK, and that is what we will do.You are calling for

0:12:44 > 0:12:50a concerted international action, what would that look like?We are

0:12:50 > 0:12:54already very grateful to the very clear response we have had from a

0:12:54 > 0:12:58lot of countries. I was in the Balkans over the weekend with

0:12:58 > 0:13:02countries like Macedonia and Kosovo, and they were very, very clear in

0:13:02 > 0:13:07their condemnation of this, because they themselves are countries which

0:13:07 > 0:13:10suffer from wider Russian interference. But we have the EU

0:13:10 > 0:13:14foreign ministers meeting tomorrow, they will be a Prime Minister level

0:13:14 > 0:13:18March European Council on Friday, we have already had an open discussion

0:13:18 > 0:13:22in the UN at which the Russian representative cut a very, very

0:13:22 > 0:13:25lonely figure, and this is clearly a Russian violation of the Chemical

0:13:25 > 0:13:30Weapons Convention and we will cooperate with the Organisation for

0:13:30 > 0:13:33the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to prove even further what we know

0:13:33 > 0:13:37to be the case.When it comes to international action, a former UK

0:13:37 > 0:13:42ambassador to Russia, agrees with you that we need to take action

0:13:42 > 0:13:46along with others and says the sanctions imposed by the EU after

0:13:46 > 0:13:50Crimea 2014 surprise the Kremlin and continue to have an impact because

0:13:50 > 0:13:56they were EU wide, but went on to say Brexit has made Britain's task

0:13:56 > 0:13:58harder in appealing for EU solidarity this week and the kind of

0:13:58 > 0:14:04international action you are looking for.I think that is total nonsense,

0:14:04 > 0:14:09Brexit doesn't have an impact on this and we are still part of the EU

0:14:09 > 0:14:13and we operate EU sanctions collaboratively and we're passing

0:14:13 > 0:14:17legislation through the House of Commons which will give us

0:14:17 > 0:14:19autonomous actions regime following the departure from the EU, and we

0:14:19 > 0:14:26will include in that what I hope will be a firm cross-party said

0:14:26 > 0:14:29statement from the House of Commons that the Magnitsky clause, as people

0:14:29 > 0:14:34have been campaigning for, will be included in the sanctions and

0:14:34 > 0:14:39anti-money-laundering Bill. And the passage of this bill predated the

0:14:39 > 0:14:45Salisbury incident, has always been something we wanted the whole of the

0:14:45 > 0:14:47House of Commons today, not just something in a committee during

0:14:47 > 0:14:52passage of the bill.Labour tried to introduce an amendment to that bill

0:14:52 > 0:14:54with the Magnitsky clause and you wear minister in the Bill committee

0:14:54 > 0:14:59that rejected those amendments two weeks ago. -- you wear minister.I

0:14:59 > 0:15:04answer the question before you ask the question, which is we wanted it

0:15:04 > 0:15:09to be done on the whole floor of the house and in the phrasing of the

0:15:09 > 0:15:12amendment it wasn't consistent with some of the other parts of the act.

0:15:12 > 0:15:16-- you were a minister. We have an understanding that we hope will be a

0:15:16 > 0:15:20cross-party thing and that will send a clear message to the world that

0:15:20 > 0:15:23the House of Commons, along with countries who have done it already,

0:15:23 > 0:15:27will be aligned with the Magnitsky proposal, which campaigners have

0:15:27 > 0:15:31been wanting.

0:15:31 > 0:15:37The Magnitsky powers would allow you to take actions against individuals

0:15:37 > 0:15:41guilty of gross human rights violations. That doesn't allow you

0:15:41 > 0:15:48to attack the money of Putin allies unless you can find them guilty of

0:15:48 > 0:15:51gross human rights violations so it wouldn't really allow you to respond

0:15:51 > 0:15:56to this attack, would it?Again, I'm afraid you're totally wrong and

0:15:56 > 0:16:00don't understand the wording of the bill because it is not only gross

0:16:00 > 0:16:04human rights violations in the bill. There are many purposes included in

0:16:04 > 0:16:07the list of things you can do under the legislation and it does include

0:16:07 > 0:16:11what you have just described.But the powers the Government has

0:16:11 > 0:16:15already on going after things like this, like unexplained wealth

0:16:15 > 0:16:20orders, have been used only once since they were introduced. There

0:16:20 > 0:16:24haven't been much evidence the Government was serious in tackling

0:16:24 > 0:16:28corrupt money brought in through London.That's because the

0:16:28 > 0:16:31legislation has only recently come in and of course it's not

0:16:31 > 0:16:34politicians who make these decisions. There's a distinction

0:16:34 > 0:16:38between the liberal democracy in which we live, where judges on the

0:16:38 > 0:16:43law take their course from politicians. And what we think is

0:16:43 > 0:16:49happening in Russia, which is not a real democracy, we are looking at a

0:16:49 > 0:16:53pretty odd election taking place today where Vladimir Putin will

0:16:53 > 0:16:58undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected for the fourth time. That is a deep

0:16:58 > 0:17:02distinction between our values and bears. One of the great values we

0:17:02 > 0:17:05have seen in the world is the creation of the chemical weapons

0:17:05 > 0:17:11Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always been the great disarm and here we

0:17:11 > 0:17:15have a violation of the ideological, the sort of principled convention

0:17:15 > 0:17:20that has been built up over many decades, violated in our own

0:17:20 > 0:17:26country, which is why I think many young people are disappointed with

0:17:26 > 0:17:29his response.Ben Wallace, the security minister, said we have

0:17:29 > 0:17:34allowed nasty individuals to come to the City of London and launder

0:17:34 > 0:17:36illicit money. That sounds like an admission that until now this

0:17:36 > 0:17:42Government hasn't been doing enough to tackle corrupt money in London.I

0:17:42 > 0:17:48think we are amassing the powers to tackle exactly the kind of issue he

0:17:48 > 0:17:52has identified, and indeed Ben Wallace is the security minister who

0:17:52 > 0:17:56has been supporting this, pressing for it and administering it from the

0:17:56 > 0:18:00Home Office point of view. We have to make a proper distinction though

0:18:00 > 0:18:04without compromising our values between those who are guilty and

0:18:04 > 0:18:09those who are not. Not every oligarch is guilty and not every

0:18:09 > 0:18:14rich Russian is necessarily a crony of Putin and someone who should be

0:18:14 > 0:18:18subject to sanctions so we need to approach this without compromising

0:18:18 > 0:18:22our values. But there is something much more important than this, what

0:18:22 > 0:18:26really matters is the world needs to realise that if we allow chemical

0:18:26 > 0:18:31weapons to slip into use any more that's happened now, we will live in

0:18:31 > 0:18:36a much more dangerous world and one which is tearing up the rule book,

0:18:36 > 0:18:40throwing away the chemical weapons Convention which has been in place

0:18:40 > 0:18:44for so many decades, indeed it was one of the great idealistic

0:18:44 > 0:18:49achievements of the post war world that we put this in place so we have

0:18:49 > 0:18:55to the robust in pointing the finger at Russia and saying this violation

0:18:55 > 0:19:00by the use of chemical weapons is simply not acceptable.Thank you for

0:19:00 > 0:19:01that.

0:19:01 > 0:19:03Well, earlier this week the police announced that they were launching

0:19:03 > 0:19:06a murder inquiry in to the death of another Russian businessman

0:19:06 > 0:19:07living in Britain.

0:19:07 > 0:19:09A pathologist's report says Nikolai Glushkov died

0:19:09 > 0:19:11of "compression to the neck" after being found dead

0:19:11 > 0:19:12at his home on Monday.

0:19:12 > 0:19:14The Metropolitan Police say there is no evidence to suggest

0:19:14 > 0:19:17a link to the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

0:19:17 > 0:19:20But the Home Office has announced it will investigate a number

0:19:20 > 0:19:22of other unexplained deaths following the Skripal case.

0:19:22 > 0:19:30Yvette Cooper is the Chair of The Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:19:31 > 0:19:35You specifically asked the Home Secretary to investigate 14 other

0:19:35 > 0:19:40deaths that you are worried may have had Russian involvement, do you have

0:19:40 > 0:19:44much evidence for that?My concern is that any area where there are

0:19:44 > 0:19:49allegations that there may have been either Russian involvement or

0:19:49 > 0:19:52suspicious circumstances that may need to be investigated should be,

0:19:52 > 0:19:57because I think we have to have the full facts. There was a BuzzFeed

0:19:57 > 0:20:02investigation that made allegations about 14 cases, there are other

0:20:02 > 0:20:07concerns raised about others. It's not for me to judge the individual

0:20:07 > 0:20:11circumstances, my concern is these cases, where there have been

0:20:11 > 0:20:17preliminary conclusions of suicide or natural causes or accident, that

0:20:17 > 0:20:20actually there may be further evidence of more suspicious

0:20:20 > 0:20:24circumstances, they should now be reviewed by the Home Office and

0:20:24 > 0:20:29police.The Home Office have said they will do that but if you look at

0:20:29 > 0:20:35the the case of someone who died in 2012, Surrey police says they will

0:20:35 > 0:20:40not reinvestigate so will they be able to cover new evidence?I assume

0:20:40 > 0:20:46the Home Office will assure there is a review of all of these cases. The

0:20:46 > 0:20:49Home Office Secretary will want to satisfy herself that every corner

0:20:49 > 0:20:53has been looked into and this has been done properly and we get to the

0:20:53 > 0:20:58bottom of this. I do accept the priority for them at the moment must

0:20:58 > 0:21:02be this current investigation and the current circumstances in

0:21:02 > 0:21:07Salisbury and where those investigations lead, but they will

0:21:07 > 0:21:11need I think to follow up by looking at these other cases as well.So you

0:21:11 > 0:21:16have any doubt that what happened in Salisbury was directed by the

0:21:16 > 0:21:20Russian state?I share the conclusions of the French, German

0:21:20 > 0:21:24and British government that it is implausible the Russian state wasn't

0:21:24 > 0:21:28involved in some way or another.So Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says

0:21:28 > 0:21:34it is either the Russian state or a chemical weapon that got out of

0:21:34 > 0:21:38control and into other people's hands?We don't know which

0:21:38 > 0:21:42individuals caused the attack and how the nerve agent was brought into

0:21:42 > 0:21:47the country, we also don't know which bit of the Russian state was

0:21:47 > 0:21:50particularly involved, but I think the clear evidence, the way in which

0:21:50 > 0:21:56the Russian government has been behaving since this happened really

0:21:56 > 0:22:01is not the behaviour of a government that is saying we weren't involved

0:22:01 > 0:22:04and we want to help get to the bottom of this because we take it

0:22:04 > 0:22:16seriously. This morning the Russian Embassy has been tweeting

0:22:16 > 0:22:22Embassy has been tweeting pictures of Hercule Poirot.So are you

0:22:22 > 0:22:27embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying there isn't enough evidence to link

0:22:27 > 0:22:30this to the Kremlin?This morning John McDonnell said we should

0:22:30 > 0:22:35condemn the Russian government for the way it's behaved on this, and

0:22:35 > 0:22:39that the Russian government is responsible, and I agreed with him,

0:22:39 > 0:22:46and he went further than Theresa May by pointing the finger at Putin,

0:22:46 > 0:22:50something similar to what Boris Johnson has said, so I think there's

0:22:50 > 0:22:53a recognition that even though we don't know which individual

0:22:53 > 0:22:56delivered the nerve agent there is responsibility here in the Russian

0:22:56 > 0:23:02state and I think some part of the security service is what we expect

0:23:02 > 0:23:07as well.It was clear in the House of Commons this week there were

0:23:07 > 0:23:12senior Labour MPs like yourself uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's

0:23:12 > 0:23:17position. There's also been reports this has been seen as a watershed

0:23:17 > 0:23:22moment by some moderate Labour MPs wondering what they are doing in

0:23:22 > 0:23:26Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and revived talk of a breakaway party,

0:23:26 > 0:23:33is that something you have heard about?I think this is a load of

0:23:33 > 0:23:38rubbish. I have not heard this so I think this is in danger of

0:23:38 > 0:23:43spiralling ever outwards and we are also in danger of making this an

0:23:43 > 0:23:47issue about domestic politics at a time when there is very serious

0:23:47 > 0:23:50international issues here that we should be focusing on and coming

0:23:50 > 0:23:54together to focus on as well.That's why it becomes a domestic issue

0:23:54 > 0:24:01because it's at times like this you might expect the leader of

0:24:01 > 0:24:03opposition to back-up the Prime Minister, you were clearly

0:24:03 > 0:24:06uncomfortable with the way he did not do that, so it has consequences

0:24:06 > 0:24:11within the Labour Party.As I understand it, Jeremy has said that

0:24:11 > 0:24:15the evidence points to wash, that also he supports all of the measures

0:24:15 > 0:24:21and that's really important that

0:24:21 > 0:24:22and that's really important that you have unanimity about the actions

0:24:22 > 0:24:27that need to be taken, and calling for further action around the

0:24:27 > 0:24:30economic sanctions. They understand he wanted to wait for further

0:24:30 > 0:24:35evidence before going further and criticising the Russian government.

0:24:35 > 0:24:38Obviously John McDonnell has criticised the Russian government

0:24:38 > 0:24:42today, but I'm not going to criticise Jeremy for taking a

0:24:42 > 0:24:45slightly different view because I think there's been too much

0:24:45 > 0:24:49temperature in this and you have heard people being called warmongers

0:24:49 > 0:24:53for condemning the Russian state, you've also heard people being

0:24:53 > 0:25:04called appeasers for asking further questions.

0:25:04 > 0:25:06questions. None of that helps. We are not talking about military

0:25:06 > 0:25:08action, we are talking about systematic diplomatic measures,

0:25:08 > 0:25:10criminal investigation measures and I hope there can be unanimity about

0:25:10 > 0:25:12what those measures should be. Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will

0:25:12 > 0:25:19just pick up some of that with the panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear

0:25:19 > 0:25:22listening to Yvette Cooper, and Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the

0:25:22 > 0:25:25Labour Party people who seemed to be at odds at the beginning of the week

0:25:25 > 0:25:33as saying there is nothing to see here, is that true?I'm not entirely

0:25:33 > 0:25:38convinced, I think this has opened up old wounds in the Labour Party,

0:25:38 > 0:25:42the front bench has been strained by this response, and while we were

0:25:42 > 0:25:46talking about how some of the questions he has asked are valid,

0:25:46 > 0:25:52tonally I think the response has upset a lot of Labour MPs, including

0:25:52 > 0:25:54those who have called for the Commons to unequivocally condemn the

0:25:54 > 0:26:09Russian state.Matt Zarb Cousin, Labour has been

0:26:10 > 0:26:13Labour has been calling for -- the Government have been calling for

0:26:13 > 0:26:17Magnitsky clauses, exactly what Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

0:26:17 > 0:26:23satisfied with what you heard from from Alan Duncan?No, they are

0:26:23 > 0:26:27watered down compared to what Jeremy Corbyn had in the manifesto in the

0:26:27 > 0:26:31last election. I think there is an agreement among the Labour Party now

0:26:31 > 0:26:35and the front bench particularly that the Russian state is culpable

0:26:35 > 0:26:41and that is shared across the house. You are still couple books under the

0:26:41 > 0:26:47chemicals weapons Convention if you lose control of the nerve agent,

0:26:47 > 0:26:51which is what happened.Now the Conservative government is serious

0:26:51 > 0:26:54about financial powers in order to target corrupt money? David Cameron

0:26:54 > 0:26:59said one of his great regrets is that he never introduced me

0:26:59 > 0:27:03Magnitsky powers, the Government say they will go ahead with it, is it

0:27:03 > 0:27:09powers they will use in a meaningful way?I think they are absolutely

0:27:09 > 0:27:14serious. The national security adviser said he understands this, as

0:27:14 > 0:27:17does the intelligence minister Ben Wallace, they have already used

0:27:17 > 0:27:25these new powers about freezing the assets on unexplained wealth. A

0:27:25 > 0:27:29fairly new measure which has already been implemented in at least one

0:27:29 > 0:27:33case as I understand it. I want to come back on your comments, you say

0:27:33 > 0:27:37the Labour Party is singing as one, I don't pick that up from the

0:27:37 > 0:27:42rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was extraordinarily diplomatic, but

0:27:42 > 0:27:46trying to paper over serious cracks within the Parliamentary party about

0:27:46 > 0:27:52Labour's position on this. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the

0:27:52 > 0:27:56intelligence on it.It is not the intelligence he doubts, it is the

0:27:56 > 0:28:00way the intelligence has been interpreted by the Government, and

0:28:00 > 0:28:03I'm talking about intelligence he perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know

0:28:03 > 0:28:10how much he has seen. Theresa May, as Lucy's story showed this week,

0:28:10 > 0:28:14hasn't necessarily shown the Leader of the Opposition and chief of staff

0:28:14 > 0:28:18everything. It is the same as Iraq in a sense. It is not the

0:28:18 > 0:28:22intelligence itself necessarily, it is how the Government uses the

0:28:22 > 0:28:25intelligence, and that's when it comes back to the nerve agent being

0:28:25 > 0:28:32of a type developed by Russia. OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

0:28:32 > 0:28:36Party we have another story...

0:28:36 > 0:28:38On Tuesday the Labour Party were expected to rubber

0:28:38 > 0:28:40stamp their support for transgender women to be included

0:28:40 > 0:28:42on all-women short lists.

0:28:42 > 0:28:44But this programme has learned that that announcement has been delayed

0:28:44 > 0:28:46so that arguments on all sides can be heard.

0:28:46 > 0:28:48The rights of the transgender community have also become part

0:28:48 > 0:28:50of a wider conversation in Westminster after the government

0:28:50 > 0:28:53backed calls to simplify the legal process to for someone

0:28:53 > 0:28:54to change their gender.

0:28:54 > 0:28:57Greg Dawson reports.

0:28:58 > 0:29:01This is Heather Peto.

0:29:01 > 0:29:05I've always known I'm a woman, it's when I became a teenager that

0:29:05 > 0:29:08I really sort of like felt the pressure to be who I was.

0:29:08 > 0:29:12And, at the next general election, she wants to make political history.

0:29:12 > 0:29:16I'd like to be one of the first transgender MPs in Parliament.

0:29:16 > 0:29:18But that ambition has propelled her and others

0:29:18 > 0:29:22to the centre of a significant row in the Labour Party

0:29:22 > 0:29:24after she was included on an all women's short list

0:29:24 > 0:29:30as a Parliamentary candidate.

0:29:30 > 0:29:36I don't think it's an issue to be honest. I think the local party

0:29:36 > 0:29:40decides and the best candidates will get through so I don't think it is

0:29:40 > 0:29:46an issue. I think it's being made an issue by some people that are more

0:29:46 > 0:29:48anti-transgender, but local people don't seem to be worried.

0:29:48 > 0:29:51Labour say they've always welcomed self-identifying trans women

0:29:51 > 0:29:53onto all women's short lists but that policy has recently

0:29:53 > 0:29:54come under attack.

0:29:54 > 0:29:57Enter the self-described radical feminists who descended

0:29:57 > 0:29:59on Parliament this week for a meeting they titled

0:29:59 > 0:30:07"transgender and the war on women".

0:30:07 > 0:30:09They've been described as transphobic, a label they reject.

0:30:09 > 0:30:12I can see already there are trans-identifying

0:30:12 > 0:30:14men cynically use - what I feel - are cynically

0:30:14 > 0:30:20using those positions.

0:30:20 > 0:30:22You've got Heather Peto who is the trans-inclusionary officer

0:30:22 > 0:30:25of the Labour Party, he went on to an all

0:30:25 > 0:30:26women's short list.

0:30:26 > 0:30:29The fact that you are referencing Heather as 'he' against her wishes

0:30:29 > 0:30:30would be insulting to her.

0:30:30 > 0:30:36I could go on and on about preferred pronouns.

0:30:36 > 0:30:38Once we start using she for a man, we are blurring the distinction.

0:30:39 > 0:30:43Venice Allan is a Labour member but those views got her suspended.

0:30:43 > 0:30:46She knows what she says is offensive to the trans community

0:30:46 > 0:30:51but makes no apology for it.

0:30:51 > 0:30:54I really do want to have this conversation, like I say,

0:30:54 > 0:30:57you don't have to agree with us but you do have to listen to us.

0:30:57 > 0:30:59Like the Labour Party, you know, they're not listening.

0:30:59 > 0:31:02I've tried to set up Momentum events, Labour events, I've tried

0:31:02 > 0:31:06to meet with Jeremy Corbyn and other politicians.

0:31:06 > 0:31:11Labour were supposed to formally clarify their support for trans

0:31:11 > 0:31:14women on all-women short lists at a meeting at the

0:31:14 > 0:31:15party's HQ this week.

0:31:15 > 0:31:17We've been told that decision would have triggered

0:31:17 > 0:31:20the resignations of more than 200 female members.

0:31:20 > 0:31:21Then yesterday, Labour told us that formal discussion

0:31:21 > 0:31:24was delayed until June.

0:31:24 > 0:31:28This is all a precursor to a much wider political debate

0:31:28 > 0:31:30going on with the Government committing to update

0:31:30 > 0:31:33the Gender Recognition Act.

0:31:33 > 0:31:36As the Prime Minister has explained, the changes would allow people

0:31:36 > 0:31:38to self define their gender without the need for

0:31:38 > 0:31:41medical diagnosis.

0:31:41 > 0:31:44We have set out plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act,

0:31:44 > 0:31:46streamlining and demedicalising the process for changing gender,

0:31:46 > 0:31:49because being trans is not an illness and it shouldn't be

0:31:49 > 0:31:56treated as such.

0:31:57 > 0:32:03Since she made that speech at the Pink Awards last October,

0:32:03 > 0:32:05progress on those changes to the Gender Recognition Act seems

0:32:05 > 0:32:06to have slowed down.

0:32:06 > 0:32:11A consultation was expected in the autumn but nothing surfaced.

0:32:11 > 0:32:14I've asked the Government what's going on and they just say in this

0:32:14 > 0:32:16very short statement that a consultation will be published

0:32:16 > 0:32:20in due course, but no date given.

0:32:20 > 0:32:25And our various requests to speak to politicians both in favour

0:32:25 > 0:32:28and opposed to these changes were all turned down, which came

0:32:28 > 0:32:29as little surprise to some.

0:32:29 > 0:32:31I know journalists and I know politicians who have

0:32:31 > 0:32:33questions about this, who have doubts about it,

0:32:33 > 0:32:40who don't dare express those doubts, raise those questions,

0:32:40 > 0:32:43because they are worried that if they do they will be screamed at,

0:32:43 > 0:32:45they will be accused of bigotry and transphobia simply

0:32:45 > 0:32:48for asking questions.

0:32:48 > 0:32:50James Kirkup has written a number of columns on the updates to the act

0:32:50 > 0:32:53and isn't sure it's been properly thought through.

0:32:53 > 0:32:57There are questions about access to safe spaces for women

0:32:57 > 0:32:59in domestic violence refuges, there are questions

0:32:59 > 0:33:01about the collection, collation of statistics

0:33:01 > 0:33:05on crime, on pay.

0:33:05 > 0:33:09Questions that should be asked, debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:09 > 0:33:16Heather Peto says the changes are long overdue though,

0:33:16 > 0:33:18and hopes she can one day speak up for the rights of the

0:33:18 > 0:33:20trans-community from the benches of the House of Commons.

0:33:20 > 0:33:23As a feminist, I would stand up to that and say, no,

0:33:23 > 0:33:25I will just be who I am.

0:33:25 > 0:33:28I have the self-confidence that I'm a woman and I always have been,

0:33:28 > 0:33:34and people should just accept me for that.

0:33:34 > 0:33:38The two chip significant issues to pick about bout the Labour Party and

0:33:38 > 0:33:40the Government's consultation about transgender rights, let me start

0:33:40 > 0:33:47with you, Matt -- two significant issues. The government is in a

0:33:47 > 0:33:52terrible tangle on transgender women on all women short lists and they've

0:33:52 > 0:33:57had to put it off until June.Self identifying trans-woman has never

0:33:57 > 0:34:00been disbarred from being on a women's short list in the Labour

0:34:00 > 0:34:06selection. The consultation was, as I understand it, coming up with a

0:34:06 > 0:34:11form of words...Clarifying the position that trans-women are

0:34:11 > 0:34:14elaborate rules to be on all women short lists, it has caused such

0:34:14 > 0:34:18around the party with two prominent members threatening to resign if

0:34:18 > 0:34:21that warning is put in, that the party has been bucking the decision

0:34:21 > 0:34:25and kicking it into the long grass. The conversations I have had with

0:34:25 > 0:34:28the leader's of this suggest that is not the case, they are still

0:34:28 > 0:34:32consulting on it and exactly what the form of words will be there is

0:34:32 > 0:34:36no actual plan as far as I'm aware to stop trans-women self identifying

0:34:36 > 0:34:41and being on a women's short list. Can I ask how many trans-women are

0:34:41 > 0:34:49applying to be on all women short lists?I'm not sure.I suspect it is

0:34:49 > 0:34:53zero.Heather Peto is one of them in the film, there may be several.

0:34:53 > 0:35:00There may be but I suspect it is less than the number of women on

0:35:00 > 0:35:00this.

0:35:04 > 0:35:08Not from any disparaging how difficult it must be to be in that

0:35:08 > 0:35:11situation. There would be a simple way of resolving the switch would be

0:35:11 > 0:35:14not to have all women short lists and select the best candidates for

0:35:14 > 0:35:22the job.It is also about whether Labour MPs have access to the

0:35:22 > 0:35:23leadership programme, whether they can stand as

0:35:23 > 0:35:26can stand as women's officers in local parties. What Labour did is

0:35:26 > 0:35:29they jumped the gun by saying it is fine, or self identifying

0:35:29 > 0:35:35trans-women can have access to these full rights. I think it is quite

0:35:35 > 0:35:39welcome to have a consultation. Politics is the art of persuasion

0:35:39 > 0:35:42and there was no real attempt by the Labour leadership to bring the

0:35:42 > 0:35:46party, bring some of the feminist... There are radical feminists in the

0:35:46 > 0:35:48party who will take more than a bit of gentle persuasion to get

0:35:48 > 0:35:53accustomed to the idea that people who were born men should be on an

0:35:53 > 0:35:57all women short list.That's right but as we saw in the VT they are

0:35:57 > 0:36:07asking for an opportunity to be heard and the debate to be had so it

0:36:07 > 0:36:09is quite welcome there will be a consultation.It's not just the

0:36:09 > 0:36:13Labour Party that seems to have kicked on this issue of it, we don't

0:36:13 > 0:36:14know what happened to the Government's consultation on making

0:36:14 > 0:36:17it easier to self identify as a man or woman. That's going to be a

0:36:17 > 0:36:19difficult one for the government. Remember the culture wars within the

0:36:19 > 0:36:21toy party that David Cameron fought over gay marriage.Absolutely and

0:36:21 > 0:36:25this is even much more complicated and a sensitive issue. It is so easy

0:36:25 > 0:36:29and I've been guilty of it myself to get the language are wrong on this,

0:36:29 > 0:36:35to upset people, and I can only imagine the Prime Minister's qualms

0:36:35 > 0:36:39about opening this can of worms within her own party, where there

0:36:39 > 0:36:46will be people who are incredibly off message about it. It seems they

0:36:46 > 0:36:50are pushing agendas are long grass and there are bigger issues to worry

0:36:50 > 0:36:55about.You are talking about 2000 or 3000 people in a party of 650,000.

0:36:55 > 0:36:59It is a rounding error.In the Labour Party, you're talking about?

0:36:59 > 0:37:03It is not splitting the party, it is a small minority of women who don't

0:37:03 > 0:37:07believe in trans-rights, that's it. Interesting to hear Theresa May

0:37:07 > 0:37:11talking about the Government's consultation. That was a clear

0:37:11 > 0:37:14statement she made at the pink news conference saying she wanted to

0:37:14 > 0:37:19streamline this and trans-wasn't a mental health issue, she made a

0:37:19 > 0:37:22strong commitment to trans-rights and she didn't have to do that.She

0:37:22 > 0:37:28didn't at all and it was fascinating she went as far as that. It is not

0:37:28 > 0:37:32unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina, Colombia and Malta have changed

0:37:32 > 0:37:35their processes to deep apologise it so it is merely a legal process and

0:37:35 > 0:37:41that is what the government is getting at. My understanding is for

0:37:41 > 0:37:44a person to legally change their gender they have to live as their

0:37:44 > 0:37:47desired gender for two years and they have to have psychiatric

0:37:47 > 0:37:50evaluations and medical opinions from two doctors and tests that some

0:37:50 > 0:37:59have claimed are incredibly traumatising. It can be made legal

0:37:59 > 0:38:01process from precedents aboard.We will carry on talking to you

0:38:01 > 0:38:03throughout the programme.

0:38:03 > 0:38:05It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:05 > 0:38:06Still to come -

0:38:06 > 0:38:09There is a big row brewing in the Brexit Select Committee

0:38:10 > 0:38:12Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

0:38:12 > 0:38:14Coming up on the programme...

0:38:14 > 0:38:18I'll be hearing from two politicians who've been the target of racial

0:38:18 > 0:38:22abuse and asking if Islamophobia is on the increase.

0:38:22 > 0:38:24Dirty Russian money - Is Scotland a soft touch

0:38:24 > 0:38:26for illicit finance?

0:38:26 > 0:38:29And the Scottish Greens Conference in Greenock is told their future

0:38:29 > 0:38:32is in the "European family".

0:38:32 > 0:38:38I'll be hearing from the party's co-convener Patrick Harvie.

0:38:38 > 0:38:40It's been another week in which racism in Scotland has

0:38:40 > 0:38:43returned to the headlines.

0:38:43 > 0:38:46That's after a Labour councillor was suspended by his party

0:38:46 > 0:38:48after making an Islamophobic comment about Transport

0:38:48 > 0:38:52Minister Humza Yousaf.

0:38:52 > 0:38:55And while the campaign for equality has been growing in profile,

0:38:55 > 0:38:59there is a view that racism is getting worse.

0:38:59 > 0:39:01In a moment I'll be speaking to Mr Yousaf

0:39:01 > 0:39:03and Labour's Anas Sarwar, who's also been the victim

0:39:03 > 0:39:04of racial abuse.

0:39:04 > 0:39:12But first, Andrew Black has this report.

0:39:16 > 0:39:18This weekend, hundreds of people from all backgrounds marched in

0:39:18 > 0:39:26Glasgow.Refugees are welcome here! Their purpose was to highlight

0:39:26 > 0:39:33racism. Many of those who took part in their own stories to tell.When I

0:39:33 > 0:39:40came here, I didn't speak English. I couldn't understand people. Some

0:39:40 > 0:39:45said go back to your country if you're not able to speak English.I

0:39:45 > 0:39:51have experienced racism and I was younger, pulling up in Glasgow, --

0:39:51 > 0:39:56growing up, not so much nowadays but some is going around in Glasgow.I

0:39:56 > 0:40:02have racism every day. This is systematic. You see it everywhere

0:40:02 > 0:40:08you go, it is not as blatant as it used to be but it's still there.

0:40:08 > 0:40:12Because it is systematic, that's why we should start fighting. You cannot

0:40:12 > 0:40:18legislate against that.After Brexit, people think their views are

0:40:18 > 0:40:21justified and is about telling and informing people, education is the

0:40:21 > 0:40:27best part. Telling people it is wrong and we need to fight back.In

0:40:27 > 0:40:35a small office in Glasgow, this man is trying to bring about change.

0:40:35 > 0:40:40He's been trying to empower young people from ethnic minorities to

0:40:40 > 0:40:44achieve great things but he says that's difficult because racism is

0:40:44 > 0:40:52getting worse.In the past, some were blunt to your face but now

0:40:52 > 0:40:58were blunt to your face but now over racism. If you look at policies,

0:40:58 > 0:41:02it's there but I can maybe, I can't name any mainstream organisation

0:41:02 > 0:41:09those who can put their hand up and say they are fairly represented.

0:41:09 > 0:41:15This week Labour councillor Jim Dempster was suspended by his party

0:41:15 > 0:41:20are making an Islamophobic carpet cook comment. A Labour MP seen here

0:41:20 > 0:41:21apologised after

0:41:25 > 0:41:29-- making an Islamophobic comment. A Labour MP apologised after making

0:41:29 > 0:41:38remarks. For years, this woman has been trying to make sure all workers

0:41:38 > 0:41:44are treated equally. Can you send someone on a course after they've

0:41:44 > 0:41:47made a comment?Training isn't necessarily the response needed,

0:41:47 > 0:41:52there have been too many incidents of that kind of language being used.

0:41:52 > 0:41:57And that's being reported as being unacceptable. I don't believe they

0:41:57 > 0:42:03haven't seen those earlier reports and they must know it is

0:42:03 > 0:42:11unacceptable. Training is a place to explore things in new ways and look

0:42:11 > 0:42:15at new ways of doing things. I think it's more an issue of taking

0:42:15 > 0:42:20responsibility for making an unacceptable remarks and there are

0:42:20 > 0:42:27consequences for that.Refugees are welcome here!The message from

0:42:27 > 0:42:34events like these is one of optimism but also a feeling there much more

0:42:34 > 0:42:43to do. With me now is Humza Yousaf and Anas Sarwar who have both been

0:42:43 > 0:42:48subject to racial abuse. Humza Yousaf, we can tell about these

0:42:48 > 0:42:51cases any moment but you did an interview and the other day and I

0:42:51 > 0:42:56was struck by you said what you called keyboard warriors, write

0:42:56 > 0:43:00insulting and abusive things you pretty much every

0:43:00 > 0:43:01insulting and abusive things you pretty much tell us more about it,

0:43:01 > 0:43:06what is going on beneath the surface?The rise of social media

0:43:06 > 0:43:09has given rise to a lot of hatred and misogyny, homophobia, in my case

0:43:09 > 0:43:15most of it is anti-Muslim and Islamophobic. I try to mute and what

0:43:15 > 0:43:20I can but if you do a simple search for my name or Anas Sarwar's name I

0:43:20 > 0:43:24don't doubt you'd get streams of it on at least a weekly basis if not

0:43:24 > 0:43:30more frequently. Most is pretty vile. Some of it other than

0:43:30 > 0:43:33surprised and shocked about it, frankly a lot of it is quite violent

0:43:33 > 0:43:37and people talk about taking a bullet to me.Seriously?You can

0:43:37 > 0:43:46search it.In the form things you could consider a death threat for

0:43:46 > 0:43:53the adds a 90% is all mafia trousers if I can use that phrase, but one

0:43:53 > 0:43:59if 1% take up the fact it is a sin. I'm sure he will take precautions

0:43:59 > 0:44:04sensible. Keyboard warriors are one thing and we will talk about

0:44:04 > 0:44:10specific cases later but what is worrying me and he saw this in your

0:44:10 > 0:44:14BT package, young people are saying we are hearing more Islamophobic and

0:44:14 > 0:44:17racist remarks to our face and people feel emboldened post Brexit

0:44:17 > 0:44:22because of other factors as well. Are you finding the same thing?Yes,

0:44:22 > 0:44:25reflecting on that, they will send frets about burning down my office

0:44:25 > 0:44:31which has an impact on my staff. Targeting me and my family,

0:44:31 > 0:44:36questioning my loyalty to Scotland and the UK. Saying I am part of some

0:44:36 > 0:44:42undercover mission to impose sharia law in Scotland or the UK,

0:44:42 > 0:44:45questioning whether we belong and I think every politician of colour or

0:44:45 > 0:44:51a certain faith must use the same. Is it largely social media or is it

0:44:51 > 0:44:57as Humza Yousaf says, it spills over?The vast majority is social

0:44:57 > 0:45:01media but I've had lots of e-mails as well, let us through the post,

0:45:01 > 0:45:05answering machine messages on my office phone, all making direct

0:45:05 > 0:45:10threats, some of them death threats. If you listen to other people's

0:45:10 > 0:45:18experience, people on the street are having an impact as the number of

0:45:18 > 0:45:26women wearing headscarf is how then shall slot in the Street or

0:45:26 > 0:45:29-- shouted at in the street or taken killing a group

0:45:32 > 0:45:42or staff at called terrorists. We can voice those concerns but for the

0:45:42 > 0:45:49vast majority of incidents happening, everyone in our country,

0:45:49 > 0:45:54people are scared to speak out -- everyday in our country.Is it

0:45:54 > 0:46:00mainly Islam or is it straight racism or has one morphed into the

0:46:00 > 0:46:07other?I have to speak on my own example but Anas is right, fewer

0:46:07 > 0:46:14people will be brave and bold enough to see it to our faces than people

0:46:14 > 0:46:20who don't have a higher profile will get a lot more. Speaking

0:46:20 > 0:46:23anecdotally, I was born and bred in Scotland, 32 years old now, most of

0:46:23 > 0:46:30it was racial growing up. After 911, the majority have flipped out to

0:46:30 > 0:46:35anti-Islamic and anti-Muslim statements. Instead of the P macro

0:46:35 > 0:46:37word which was used for brown Jeremy

0:46:42 > 0:46:52-- used for brown people, other called a terrorist.As this morphed

0:46:52 > 0:46:57in the culture?A lot of it is Miss recognition. A lot of the people you

0:46:57 > 0:47:05talk to who are victims of Islamophobic, because of

0:47:05 > 0:47:09misrepresentation -- Sikh people. It was the P word that you heard in the

0:47:09 > 0:47:14city centre or in school, now it is Islamic references like terrorists

0:47:14 > 0:47:20and Jihad. The dig deference than was colour and race another big

0:47:20 > 0:47:27difference is faith. People use it to express their hatred.What

0:47:27 > 0:47:32strikes me you both saying about social media, we tend to think about

0:47:32 > 0:47:39that Italy as a young medium that young people use. -- not entirely.

0:47:39 > 0:47:44Is this Islamophobia racism, the cases that have come up as tender to

0:47:44 > 0:47:49be people of a certain age. The implication of what you're saying is

0:47:49 > 0:47:55it is not?In wider society and day-to-day conversation, it will be

0:47:55 > 0:47:58the dinosaurs who say stupid things and crass things and unacceptable

0:47:58 > 0:48:04thing. But don't think we should pretend it will get phased out with

0:48:04 > 0:48:05AIDS or

0:48:05 > 0:48:06much more

0:48:07 > 0:48:16with that -- with age or time. A global village communicating and

0:48:16 > 0:48:21sharing ideas and vision and stories, but social media has

0:48:21 > 0:48:24commissioned a lot of unfathomable views because if you heard something

0:48:24 > 0:48:28before come you would go away and festival a few hours before sharing

0:48:28 > 0:48:32it with someone else, if you're angry about something, you go on

0:48:32 > 0:48:35social media, post a comment, find people who agree with you, live

0:48:35 > 0:48:43within that framework and allow that opinion to fester, and social media

0:48:43 > 0:48:50has dangers as well as great things. Also making things acceptable.

0:48:50 > 0:48:55People of older disposition would no doubt Islamophobic views as well as

0:48:55 > 0:48:58slightly young people the differences be borne out emboldened

0:48:58 > 0:49:07to speak about it. Whether that's domestic or international factors.

0:49:07 > 0:49:12It's not the case that Islamophobic views have only existed since 911,

0:49:12 > 0:49:16people are more emboldened.It's difficult to tackle isn't it. Anyone

0:49:16 > 0:49:24who's even you're a age who has been brought up in Scotland will have

0:49:24 > 0:49:27brought up in a school system explicitly telling people racism is

0:49:27 > 0:49:33bad, if rather be as bad. It's not a simple things to tackle, there seems

0:49:33 > 0:49:38to be something from the same, rooted in the culture, the veneer on

0:49:38 > 0:49:44top is not managing to get down.The positive is now people are willing

0:49:44 > 0:49:50to challenge it. For example, I started as a researcher for the

0:49:50 > 0:49:52first ethnic variety MSP. A BBC

0:49:52 > 0:49:54first ethnic variety MSP.

0:49:54 > 0:50:03-- ethnic minority MSP. There was a BBC programme about Anas Sarwar'

0:50:03 > 0:50:09father and the MSP was going to comment and a guy in a pub started

0:50:09 > 0:50:16making racist comments. And David Henderson Sophie said this is all on

0:50:16 > 0:50:25tape, shall I send it to the police, and Bashir turned round to me and

0:50:25 > 0:50:31said don't report it, he is the host and the guest, let's not reported

0:50:31 > 0:50:37and let it lie. I convinced him to report it. The difference is even,

0:50:37 > 0:50:40he was elected in 2007, the difference is our generation are

0:50:40 > 0:50:47much more willing to call it out and hopefully will do.What shall we do,

0:50:47 > 0:50:54do you think, Anas Sarwar, taking the latest case, but Michael has

0:50:54 > 0:51:02called for Dempsey to be out of the Labour Party. -- Humza Yousaf has

0:51:02 > 0:51:07been calling for him.Les Dogues by individual cases as I've said

0:51:07 > 0:51:10before, people are dinosaurs, they make crass and unacceptable marks,

0:51:10 > 0:51:15he readily apologised, a rightly was suspended. The Labour Party will

0:51:15 > 0:51:21make a decision if the long-term based on how to reflect in terms of

0:51:21 > 0:51:26society, whether it is one thing saying sorry and then it is about

0:51:26 > 0:51:29changing yourself, changing your behaviour and other effects wider

0:51:29 > 0:51:35society.You think you should be out?Think any less Amat will be

0:51:35 > 0:51:42tolerant of some Afobe and the reason I say that, was that this was

0:51:42 > 0:51:47an off-the-cuff remark. I'm not saying they should be expelled comic

0:51:47 > 0:51:52Hugh Gaffney, people should be from promised further.This is you and

0:51:52 > 0:51:58your officials?In front of my officials, members of the public, it

0:51:58 > 0:52:03was not a slip of the time, it was a deliberate slur.It's a disgraceful

0:52:03 > 0:52:07thing and I stand shoulder to shoulder, there's no party politics

0:52:07 > 0:52:11here, we are at one.The guy should be expelled from the Labour Party

0:52:11 > 0:52:18grip labour will take a decision on this and quickly.It's not just

0:52:18 > 0:52:19about one individual or organisation, although it is right

0:52:19 > 0:52:24to call out individuals and our own organisations, as made clear my own

0:52:24 > 0:52:28disappointment with certain remarks made by members of the Labour Party.

0:52:28 > 0:52:31This is a culture that impact on organisations and institutions

0:52:31 > 0:52:36across our country and that is what we must challenge head on.I get

0:52:36 > 0:52:39from what thing, should he eventually be expelled, he would be

0:52:39 > 0:52:46distraught?No, I will not be distraught about people being called

0:52:46 > 0:52:51out and changing their behaviour. Humza Yousaf, we have to leave it

0:52:51 > 0:52:52there. Thank you.

0:52:52 > 0:52:55Now, the stories and the fallout from the Salisbury chemical

0:52:55 > 0:52:56attack keep on coming.

0:52:56 > 0:52:58Today, Vladimir Putin is expected to romp home in the presidential

0:52:58 > 0:53:01polls before returning to the escalating diplomatic

0:53:01 > 0:53:03crisis with the UK.

0:53:03 > 0:53:05Closer to home, in fact, on our very doorstep,

0:53:05 > 0:53:08there are allegations that "dirty" Russian money is being laundered

0:53:08 > 0:53:09through Scottish limited partnerships, or SLPs.

0:53:09 > 0:53:11The allegation comes from the SNP's Treasury

0:53:11 > 0:53:14spokesperson in Westminster, Alison Thewliss.

0:53:14 > 0:53:20I spoke to her earlier this morning.

0:53:20 > 0:53:27First of just explain what these Scottish limited partnerships are,

0:53:27 > 0:53:33and why they are controversial. Well, they are in financial

0:53:33 > 0:53:35mechanism for investments and they have been around for a long time,

0:53:35 > 0:53:40but more recently, the lack of transparency around them has been

0:53:40 > 0:53:46centred around money laundering, and if you look at the Azerbaijani

0:53:46 > 0:53:50laundromat scandal, a couple of the companies involved in that work

0:53:50 > 0:53:54SLPs.And the point about these is what? You don't have to give very

0:53:54 > 0:54:03much information to the authorities? Yes, and they also have dug by the

0:54:03 > 0:54:08advantageous aspect of them over English looked at companies if you

0:54:08 > 0:54:13can hold assets, all sorts of things like ships or property.So just to

0:54:13 > 0:54:17spell this out, in theory, I could set up a Scottish limited

0:54:17 > 0:54:21partnership, I wouldn't need to have duck would have to be the beneficial

0:54:21 > 0:54:28owner? Ike could have someone else that looks like they are running the

0:54:28 > 0:54:32company... If only I could put in $1 billion, and it wouldn't be too many

0:54:32 > 0:54:37questions asked?There is very little transparency as well. There

0:54:37 > 0:54:41is also a related problem with the setup of companies in the UK, you

0:54:41 > 0:54:44pay £12 to Companies House and Companies House does not carry out

0:54:44 > 0:54:52any due diligence.As you said, these are historical, they have been

0:54:52 > 0:54:55around for some time. They are now perceived to be a problem. What do

0:54:55 > 0:55:01you think should be done about them? A couple of different things. The

0:55:01 > 0:55:06UK... Needs a few changes, the has to be a person of significant

0:55:06 > 0:55:12control, one person accountable for this SLP, the buck stops with them.

0:55:12 > 0:55:16But with that have to be the beneficial owner?Not necessarily.

0:55:16 > 0:55:24It could be an agent?Lots of SLPs still have not registered this

0:55:24 > 0:55:27person even though they have been obliged to do since last year. The

0:55:27 > 0:55:32UK Government has had reviewed going which has not yet reported back so

0:55:32 > 0:55:36we don't know how effective this regime is. Lots of people are

0:55:36 > 0:55:41concerned about SLPs and fed into this review, we don't actually know

0:55:41 > 0:55:45what the UK... Is going to do further.What do you think they

0:55:45 > 0:55:50should do?A couple of things they could do. I won't SLPs to have a UK

0:55:50 > 0:55:56point of contact, registered with Companies House, they don't have to

0:55:56 > 0:56:01do that at the moment. It would also be useful to get more transparency

0:56:01 > 0:56:08around them. At the moment, legal firms can manage SLPs for clients,

0:56:08 > 0:56:12and if the company has not registered a person of significant

0:56:12 > 0:56:15control, there is no come back to the legal firm, they can ask their

0:56:15 > 0:56:19clients to do that, if the clients do not do that, the law firm doesn't

0:56:19 > 0:56:24have any real incentive to strike them off. They will continue to

0:56:24 > 0:56:28manage that SLP for those clients but they will not know necessarily

0:56:28 > 0:56:32through the clients are. I would like to see more comeback on the

0:56:32 > 0:56:38people who are managing SLPs.Again, just to spell this out, because it

0:56:38 > 0:56:43is, the kid, let us say the race and SLP and it has $1 billion in aid.

0:56:43 > 0:56:48And actually, it is suspected or found out that is either drug money

0:56:48 > 0:56:52or it is, I don't know, illicit wealth coming from somewhere like

0:56:52 > 0:56:57Russia. What can the authorities do, and who in that SLP would actually

0:56:57 > 0:57:02be responsible? Would this nominated person be legally responsible for

0:57:02 > 0:57:08that?At the moment that hasn't even been tested. There have been no big

0:57:08 > 0:57:12cases being brought against these SLPs are persons of significant

0:57:12 > 0:57:16control yet. So that is a big gap in the system as well. There are huge

0:57:16 > 0:57:26gaps around scrutiny of these SLPs. Journalists have been digging into

0:57:26 > 0:57:30these SLPs and it is not transparent at all. You can have hundreds of

0:57:30 > 0:57:33SLPs registered to one mailbox address and very little

0:57:33 > 0:57:38transparency.One of the point you're making was, if we're going to

0:57:38 > 0:57:42be talking sanctions against Vladimir Putin's state, because of

0:57:42 > 0:57:53what happened in Salisbury, these SLPs, they could be one of the

0:57:53 > 0:57:56issues that clamping down on these could be part of that?Absolutely.

0:57:56 > 0:58:00And Theresa May during the week mentioned the need to crack down on

0:58:00 > 0:58:04Russian dirty money in the UK but she has to show what that actually

0:58:04 > 0:58:10will be as a result of that. In Parliament, the happy anti-money

0:58:10 > 0:58:13laundering bill, it has been through committee stage and it will come

0:58:13 > 0:58:18back to the House at some point for further scrutiny. So at that point

0:58:18 > 0:58:21at report stage I would like to see the Government bringing forward

0:58:21 > 0:58:26amendments to tackle some of this dirty money. We can talk about dirty

0:58:26 > 0:58:30money all we like but they do not close the loopholes which allow the

0:58:30 > 0:58:33dirty money to flow through the UK, they are not doing their job

0:58:33 > 0:58:40properly.There is a broader issue here. Just to make one thing clear,

0:58:40 > 0:58:43the Scottish Parliament has no locus in this?They are called Scottish

0:58:43 > 0:58:49limited partnership, but the regulation is very much reserved to

0:58:49 > 0:58:54Westminster.There is a more general point, some people who have written

0:58:54 > 0:58:58books on money laundering and all the rest of it argued that Britain

0:58:58 > 0:59:03is particularly bad, we always think about is the problem is British

0:59:03 > 0:59:07territories, like the Cayman Islands or Jersey or the Isle of Man, but

0:59:07 > 0:59:11actually, Britain itself as regulation is not just on SLPs but

0:59:11 > 0:59:17on other things, which make it one of the big places to come to, if you

0:59:17 > 0:59:22want illicitly to get rid of money or to store money that is ill

0:59:22 > 0:59:28begotten.Absolutely, and people are trading on the reputation of the UK

0:59:28 > 0:59:33in order to set up these structures. Journalists have pointed out that

0:59:33 > 0:59:37SLPs have been marketed in parts of the world as a means to legitimately

0:59:37 > 0:59:41hide money and launder money. So we need to look at this in great detail

0:59:41 > 0:59:45and the Government really, if they are serious about taking action on

0:59:45 > 0:59:50Russian money, they need to...And perhaps more likely to know about

0:59:50 > 0:59:57the existence of SLPs Offiah am a member of the Mexican drug cartel

0:59:57 > 1:00:02than if I am a citizen of Edinburgh and Glasgow?Absolutely.Alison

1:00:02 > 1:00:06Thewliss, 20 very much. -- thank you.

1:00:06 > 1:00:09It was a speech ranging from an accusation that the Conservatives

1:00:09 > 1:00:11are treating the Scottish Parliament with contempt, to a heartfelt plea

1:00:11 > 1:00:13to ensure both Scotland and the UK remain part

1:00:13 > 1:00:14of the "European family".

1:00:14 > 1:00:17The 150 or so Scottish Greens supporters were left in little doubt

1:00:17 > 1:00:19about the direction of their party after this weekend's

1:00:19 > 1:00:22one-day conference.

1:00:22 > 1:00:27Joining me now is the co-convenor of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

1:00:27 > 1:00:35Good morning. Scotland in Europe Britain in Europe, part of the

1:00:35 > 1:00:39European family, that was your big idea. Does that mean that he would

1:00:39 > 1:00:43like another European, another Brexit referendum?We certainly want

1:00:43 > 1:00:48to oppose the Brexit crisis in everything that it represents. We've

1:00:48 > 1:00:52heard about the wave of racism and xenophobia that has been emboldened

1:00:52 > 1:00:56by it. We know about the economic wreckage. Even the UK Government's

1:00:56 > 1:01:01gun analysis shows they can only really salvage any gains by

1:01:01 > 1:01:03scrapping their commitments on social and environmental standards

1:01:03 > 1:01:07and protection of peoples rights. So we absolutely want to oppose the

1:01:07 > 1:01:11project but if this is done to us, if we are taken out of the European

1:01:11 > 1:01:17Union against the will of the clear majority of people in Scotland who

1:01:17 > 1:01:24voted, we will be campaigning to get back in. We believe the future of

1:01:24 > 1:01:27our country is European.The Liberal Democrats say, we want another

1:01:27 > 1:01:31referendum on whatever is agreed as part of the Brexit deal. Why don't

1:01:31 > 1:01:35you agree with them?At their case can be made for a second referendum.

1:01:35 > 1:01:41I would not want trash-mac I would want to ask a couple of questions,

1:01:41 > 1:01:45first, what is to prevent the same situation happening again with

1:01:45 > 1:01:48skulls and not having its view represented, and also, is this can't

1:01:48 > 1:01:51be another opportunity for the UK Government to take a vote on the

1:01:51 > 1:01:56European Union to the extreme and take us out of the single market and

1:01:56 > 1:02:00a customs union as well? For which they have no mandate. So I would

1:02:00 > 1:02:07want to ask those questions.People are saying you don't want the

1:02:07 > 1:02:13referendum because you're scared of the result.The House of Commons and

1:02:13 > 1:02:16other European countries are going to have an opportunity to take their

1:02:16 > 1:02:20view on this deal that is done. Just today, I'm reading that there are

1:02:20 > 1:02:24MPs in the House of Commons who say if the deal is unacceptable, it has

1:02:24 > 1:02:30to remain the status quo. If they reject the deal.Just on the

1:02:30 > 1:02:33referendum, I'm curious you're not campaigning for this, because when

1:02:33 > 1:02:37it comes to a second Scottish referendum on independence, you

1:02:37 > 1:02:40think it is a great idea and you want one as soon as possible. Why

1:02:40 > 1:02:45not another one Brexit?We've said very clearly that Scotland has the

1:02:45 > 1:02:48right to have this question put at any time in the future, just as the

1:02:48 > 1:02:53whole of the UK has the right to have a question about EU membership

1:02:53 > 1:02:58but at a future time. But the immediate challenge is to oppose a

1:02:58 > 1:03:02Brexit and all of the damage that it represents, but also to oppose the

1:03:02 > 1:03:06direct assault that the UK Government lodging against

1:03:06 > 1:03:10devolution on the pretext of Brexit. That is entirely unjustified and not

1:03:10 > 1:03:15what people voted for. Last week, Tory MSP is proposing legislation in

1:03:15 > 1:03:20the Scottish Parliament which would forbid the Scottish Parliament from

1:03:20 > 1:03:23passing future regulations that conflicted with the UK Government

1:03:23 > 1:03:27policy. You can have any devolution you want as long as it is Tory

1:03:27 > 1:03:31policy that is implemented!There is nothing to stop you doing what

1:03:31 > 1:03:40you've just said and saying, want another referendum on Brexit.

1:03:40 > 1:03:43another referendum on Brexit.I have certainly said we are open to that

1:03:43 > 1:03:46by Barack two specific questions I would want answered and they haven't

1:03:46 > 1:03:51been, yet. Right now, it is very clear that a wafer thin UK wide

1:03:51 > 1:03:56majority for leaving the EU, is being abused as a mandate which it

1:03:56 > 1:04:02doesn't represent, for an extreme hard Brexit which many in the Tory

1:04:02 > 1:04:06campaign said would never happen.A big challenge for you, Jeremy

1:04:06 > 1:04:09Corbyn, his Labour Party did relatively well in the last general

1:04:09 > 1:04:18election, certainly in England, but in Scotland they have brought a lot

1:04:18 > 1:04:24of younger people who might have otherwise -- otherwise been

1:04:24 > 1:04:27persuaded to think, I like that Patrick Harvie and I will vote

1:04:27 > 1:04:33Green? That is a problem for you, presumably?It has posed significant

1:04:33 > 1:04:36challenges for our colleagues in England and Wales who have done more

1:04:36 > 1:04:42than most to try and make the case for pluralist politics, it hasn't

1:04:42 > 1:04:46quite played out that we in Scotland, where we have some of our

1:04:46 > 1:04:49best election results about the same time as Labour getting a bit of a

1:04:49 > 1:04:53Jeremy Corbyn bounce. I'm not sure how much the Scottish Labour Party

1:04:53 > 1:04:57have created that as opposed to just riding the wave, but I can

1:04:57 > 1:05:00understand the enthusiasm and energy many people on the left of the party

1:05:00 > 1:05:09felt.What about... You have made such a big thing about independence,

1:05:09 > 1:05:14are you losing support for it? If I met someone who thinks that animal

1:05:14 > 1:05:19welfare, renewable energy, being against fracking, is really

1:05:19 > 1:05:24important but really don't want to leave the UK, why should I vote for

1:05:24 > 1:05:27the Scottish Greens? Am I not better to look at some like the Lib Dems or

1:05:27 > 1:05:36even Labour?

1:05:36 > 1:05:38even Labour? That is a danger for you as well. Are you alienating some

1:05:38 > 1:05:43people?If anyone says that one particular issue is the most

1:05:43 > 1:05:46important thing to them, they would run some consistency. I'm not sure

1:05:46 > 1:05:50the Lib Dems offer that on fracking anywhere than they do on something

1:05:50 > 1:05:53like nuclear weapons. The Green Party have always tried to conduct

1:05:53 > 1:05:58the debate on independence in a manner of respect and understanding

1:05:58 > 1:06:03and listening to one another. We still have members who voted no last

1:06:03 > 1:06:07time, the clear majority voted yes in the party will campaign for yes

1:06:07 > 1:06:09again because the wreckers clear and distinct vision about what

1:06:09 > 1:06:15independence can be. It is about a better and greener society.Patrick

1:06:15 > 1:06:16Harvie, thank you very much.

1:06:16 > 1:06:22Time now for a look at the week ahead.

1:06:22 > 1:06:25Well, the week ahead is likely to be dominated by Russia again.

1:06:25 > 1:06:27Here's what the Russian Ambassador and Boris Johnson had to say

1:06:27 > 1:06:35on the Andrew Marr Show a little earlier.

1:06:35 > 1:06:40Russia, and I can assure you, without using the phraseology like

1:06:40 > 1:06:45highly likely, which has become very popular these days, Russia had

1:06:45 > 1:06:52nothing to do with it.Boris Johnson has gone even further and said he is

1:06:52 > 1:06:58-- it is very likely that Vladimir Putin himself ordered this attack.

1:06:58 > 1:07:01Well, that rests with the responsibility of Boris Johnson, who

1:07:01 > 1:07:06I believe is acting in an inappropriate manner, which doesn't

1:07:06 > 1:07:12give him credit.You have said it is overwhelmingly likely that Vladimir

1:07:12 > 1:07:16Putin is responsible. We saw the ambassador brush that aside, wide EU

1:07:16 > 1:07:20say that?We gave the Russians are very clear choice and the Prime

1:07:20 > 1:07:25Minister said on Monday, as I said to the Russian Ambassador to the UK,

1:07:25 > 1:07:31either help us to understand how the stockpiles of Novichok have gone

1:07:31 > 1:07:34missing and has some of it could have turned up on the streets of

1:07:34 > 1:07:39Wiltshire in this way, or else I'm afraid we will be forced, as the

1:07:39 > 1:07:42Prime Minister said in the House of Commons, to draw the conclusion, as

1:07:42 > 1:07:47we did in the case of Alexander Litvinenko, that the trail of

1:07:47 > 1:07:53culpability leads inexorably to the Kremlin. And I think listening to

1:07:53 > 1:08:00the Russian response and the response of the Russian Ambassador

1:08:00 > 1:08:05to the EU with his satirical suggestion that this was done by a

1:08:05 > 1:08:10UK agents from Porton down, this is not the response of a country that

1:08:10 > 1:08:13really believes itself to be innocent, this is not the response

1:08:13 > 1:08:17of a country that Lee wants to engage in getting to the bottom of

1:08:17 > 1:08:19the matter.

1:08:19 > 1:08:22With me now alongside Patrick Harvie are author and columnist Katie Grant

1:08:22 > 1:08:25and political commentator Iain Macwhirter.

1:08:27 > 1:08:32Where do you see this rash of business ending, Katie? It is

1:08:32 > 1:08:35escalating at the moment?-- Russia business. Assessing where ever

1:08:35 > 1:08:39really going to get the bottom it. One of the interesting things going

1:08:39 > 1:08:48on is we are all fixated on who is responsible. That is completely

1:08:48 > 1:08:54right. But there are so many other imponderables in the story. For

1:08:54 > 1:09:00example, if they wanted to kill Mr Skripal, his daughter is a Russian

1:09:00 > 1:09:05citizen so how does that fit in? There are lots of unanswered

1:09:05 > 1:09:10questions here that sometimes if you try and ask them now you are accused

1:09:10 > 1:09:16of being a fifth columnist somehow. But there are a lot of unanswered

1:09:16 > 1:09:21questions, and some answers may be forthcoming not least what Mr

1:09:21 > 1:09:27Skripal was doing that morning with still don't know.There have been

1:09:27 > 1:09:32strong words this week from the US, France and Germany, from Nato, but

1:09:32 > 1:09:39whether that translates into anything more, frankly?Or the

1:09:39 > 1:09:43circumstantial evidence points to Vladimir Putin and the Russian

1:09:43 > 1:09:45state, is the kind of action you seem only a state is capable of

1:09:45 > 1:09:52conducting. If it was Putin who ordered it, then it was an act of

1:09:52 > 1:09:55extraordinary geopolitical stupidity. Unpardonable folly, you

1:09:55 > 1:10:04might say. All he succeeded in doing is reuniting the West against

1:10:04 > 1:10:08Russia, guaranteeing further sanctions against Russia with the

1:10:08 > 1:10:11Russian economy cannot afford. Compromising either the oligarchs'

1:10:11 > 1:10:16friends who are hiding out and recycling their money through London

1:10:16 > 1:10:24financial markets. And uniting for most importantly, reunited Nato

1:10:24 > 1:10:28after the election of Donald Trump, it was looking a bit ropey because

1:10:28 > 1:10:33he is an instinct of isolationist, it was falling apart and this has

1:10:33 > 1:10:37reunited Nato family, which we saw last week.Brexit, more discussions

1:10:37 > 1:10:44this week about the Scottish aspect. The talk is, Katie, not just the

1:10:44 > 1:10:49talk actually, Nicola Sturgeon said, that there has been progress and a

1:10:49 > 1:10:53deal might be possible, do you think there will be one?I hope there will

1:10:53 > 1:10:58be. I think Brexit has become about practicalities for ordinary people

1:10:58 > 1:11:02living in Scotland, we want to know what it means for us. I don't think

1:11:02 > 1:11:06we want to give an harping on about what if I could be possibly not be

1:11:06 > 1:11:11part of this any more. I hope that these discussions which did seem

1:11:11 > 1:11:18quite grown up if you like, will I hope will continue. And continue a

1:11:18 > 1:11:22good deal for Scotland. I think independents get in the way

1:11:22 > 1:11:26sometimes quite understandably, Nicola Sturgeon is the head of the S

1:11:26 > 1:11:31NP, I think sometimes you need to put that aside and go where we are

1:11:31 > 1:11:38bound, where we are going to go.You are a bit more sceptical about this

1:11:38 > 1:11:43new?I don't share Katie Boulter Cobden was about a deal happening

1:11:43 > 1:11:52imminently, I think there was not much.Both Nicola Sturgeon and the

1:11:52 > 1:11:56Welsh Government and jab

1:11:56 > 1:11:57much.Both Nicola Sturgeon and the Welsh Government and had been?My

1:11:57 > 1:12:05understanding is there has been no progress. This is going to the

1:12:05 > 1:12:08client grey crunch

1:12:08 > 1:12:15the EU -- crunch because the clause 11 is being adapted as power grab.

1:12:15 > 1:12:21There will be a debate on this next week, and there is no resolution of

1:12:21 > 1:12:25this fundamental issue, whether or not the UK Government can impose its

1:12:25 > 1:12:31will even on these 25 devolved areas or whether or not it should be

1:12:31 > 1:12:36power-sharing between the UK Government and Scotland. This is not

1:12:36 > 1:12:39yet resolved. The UK Government is determined to push through this. It

1:12:39 > 1:12:45sees it as essential for retaining integrity of the UK internally.

1:12:45 > 1:12:48Despite everything that has been said, there's a possibility there

1:12:48 > 1:12:51would be a deal and secondly the Scottish Government will still say

1:12:51 > 1:12:57we pass over legislative consent as it is called, for Brexit in the

1:12:57 > 1:13:01Scottish Parliament?As things stand at the moment, certainly, that is a

1:13:01 > 1:13:04way it is heading. There will be a continuity bill passed by the

1:13:04 > 1:13:10Scottish parliament. He had Patrick Harvie absolutely crucial to this.

1:13:10 > 1:13:16-- you heard Patrick Harvie crucial to this. His earlier he is clear

1:13:16 > 1:13:20that this is a fundamental, real and present danger to the future of

1:13:20 > 1:13:22devolution and the state of the Scottish parliament and was not

1:13:22 > 1:13:28prepared to go along with it. There's no cracking there.Briefly,

1:13:28 > 1:13:33Katie, you look depressed.I would be, the language that came out and

1:13:33 > 1:13:39the language that Nicola Sturgeon use...We are completely out of

1:13:39 > 1:13:43time, that's all form has this week. Thank you, I'll