:01:31. > :01:41.In the south-east, all work and no play, will pensioners be helped or
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :30:14.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1713 seconds
:30:14. > :30:17.persecuted by the latest ideas to I'm Julia George and this is the
:30:17. > :30:20.Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up shortly:
:30:20. > :30:25.The prayers of many South East local authorities are answered as
:30:25. > :30:28.the Government intervenes to reverse the ban at council meetings.
:30:28. > :30:31.With me in the studio today are Tim Luckhurst, Professor of Journalism
:30:31. > :30:40.at Kent University and Paul Clark, former Labour MP for Gillingham and
:30:40. > :30:43.Rainham. Unemployment across South East is
:30:43. > :30:46.up. Kent and Medway has seen one of the biggest rises in recent months.
:30:46. > :30:49.Three times as many people lost their jobs in January compared to
:30:49. > :30:52.December. Young people in Kent are the worst affected. Nearly a third
:30:52. > :31:01.of the jobless in the Kent County Council are under 24. More than
:31:01. > :31:05.9,000 are signing on. Tim Luckhurst, with your students,
:31:05. > :31:10.how do you help them get a job? and the size to them from the very
:31:10. > :31:14.beginning of the decree that employability is as important as
:31:14. > :31:18.academic ability, in making sure you have a career. They also
:31:18. > :31:25.emphasise that if you do not get those Kate -- keep employability
:31:25. > :31:30.skills, being unemployed for a year between 18 and 24 can have a long-
:31:30. > :31:35.term effect, so we stress to them to learn the academic staff but
:31:35. > :31:39.also the key employability skills. This is another worrying trend, the
:31:39. > :31:43.number of people out of work for more than a year. Some of the must
:31:43. > :31:48.despair that they will ever get a job again, what does that do to
:31:48. > :31:52.someone? We saw this in the Medway towns when we saw the dockyard and
:31:52. > :31:55.engineering companies closing. People were unemployed for a long
:31:55. > :31:59.period of time, totally demoralising. The problem we have
:31:59. > :32:05.today is that their policies being followed which give no hope to the
:32:05. > :32:10.economy coming out of the recession and helping to create jobs as it is
:32:10. > :32:14.is the responsibility of any government to do. We will be back
:32:14. > :32:17.with jobs later on. Should politicians pray? Three
:32:17. > :32:20.simple words, one massive row. In a statement to the Sunday Politics
:32:20. > :32:22.South East, the Bishop of Rochester predicted earlier in the week that
:32:22. > :32:28.a High Court ban on formal prayer during council meetings wouldn't
:32:28. > :32:31.last. He told us, "many are not content with this decision and we
:32:31. > :32:35.will not, therefore, have heard the last of the matter." Turns out he
:32:35. > :32:38.was right. The Government has reversed the High Court ruling that
:32:38. > :32:42.might please practising Christians and we have more of them than any
:32:42. > :32:45.other part of the country. The Mayor of Folkestone Susan Wallace
:32:45. > :32:49.told us, "This news has made my day. We can keep our tradition that's
:32:49. > :32:53.been going on 700 years." But should the Church of England
:32:53. > :32:56.continue to have a special status in our political life? Joining our
:32:56. > :33:03.discussion from our Westminster studio is Keith Porteus Wood of the
:33:03. > :33:06.National Secular Society. Thank you are joining us. Plenty of
:33:06. > :33:09.people will be watching us this lunchtime having returned from
:33:09. > :33:13.church, they are practising Christians in a Christian country,
:33:13. > :33:18.and they will be delighted that prayers are back on the agenda.
:33:18. > :33:22.What is your message to them? Church attendance is in terminal
:33:22. > :33:27.decline, only one in 15 of the population are going to church. I
:33:27. > :33:33.don't think the Secretary of State, evangelical though he is, at his in
:33:33. > :33:40.a position to overturn these rulings. He has advised local
:33:40. > :33:47.authorities that his act, the localism Act, may well, or in his
:33:47. > :33:52.opinion does overall -- overruled the continual -- the particular act
:33:52. > :33:56.that we challenged. Our lawyers are saying the Secretary of State is
:33:56. > :33:59.long. I have had very senior lawyer has come to me and say that in the
:33:59. > :34:04.last couple of days -- the Secretary of State is wrong. This
:34:04. > :34:07.is due to be seen out in the courts and it will be challenged. The
:34:07. > :34:11.National Secular Society will continue to take every opportunity
:34:11. > :34:15.it will to challenge it. This is not being not a liberal, it is
:34:15. > :34:20.about saying there is a time and a place for everything. We suggested
:34:20. > :34:24.prayers before council meetings or periods of silence during council
:34:24. > :34:27.meetings, both of which were rejected by the council we took to
:34:27. > :34:33.the High Court. Let's just be really clear about one thing. You
:34:33. > :34:37.will be eagerly challenge Eric Pickles if he has -- legally
:34:37. > :34:42.challenged Eric because if he believes he has reversed this?
:34:42. > :34:46.is all breaking news, I have an appointment with our lawyer's first
:34:46. > :34:51.thing tomorrow. Certainly in principle, we will do everything we
:34:51. > :34:54.can to challenge it and we think he is wrong. Let's pick up on the idea.
:34:54. > :34:57.You do not answer the question about what the practising
:34:57. > :35:02.Christians might feel, you just said that there were not many of
:35:02. > :35:07.them so their opinions don't matter. There are lot of people who feel
:35:07. > :35:11.strongly about this as a tradition for the country, what is wrong with
:35:11. > :35:16.that? There is nothing wrong with tradition. Because of the change of
:35:16. > :35:19.society, I think that when people are doing public duty, religion
:35:19. > :35:25.should not be involved in it and it can cause difficulties and problems.
:35:25. > :35:29.In Portsmouth, for example, there were Muslim prayers said and a
:35:29. > :35:34.Christian Councillor walked out saying, this is not the God that I
:35:34. > :35:38.worship. If there were not prayers, just a period of silence or prayers
:35:38. > :35:42.before the meeting that were optional, we would not have these
:35:42. > :35:46.kind of problems. This is not just what local authorities are
:35:46. > :35:51.therefore do -- to do. As far as answering your question, what will
:35:51. > :35:56.they think, I think most Christians would have a problem with it. It is
:35:56. > :36:02.only evangelical Christians who -- will not have a problem with it. It
:36:02. > :36:09.is only evangelical Christians who are determined to -- but there used
:36:09. > :36:13.on Society. Do you think Eric Pickles has the power to do what he
:36:13. > :36:17.thinks he has done and reverse the High Court ruling? In the end, the
:36:17. > :36:20.answer is yes, Parliament is sovereign. If the Secretary of
:36:20. > :36:24.State can use the authority of Parliament to overturn the High
:36:24. > :36:32.Court, he will certainly win. So yes, the Secretary of State has
:36:32. > :36:35.this power. Can I intervene that -- there? In equality, there is
:36:35. > :36:39.European directives on this matter. The Secretary of State does not
:36:40. > :36:43.have untrammelled powers. I am not suggesting he does, but he has
:36:43. > :36:47.parliamentary sovereignty behind him and he broadly has the European
:36:47. > :36:50.Convention of Human Rights. The great traditions of European
:36:50. > :36:55.constitution is the secular constitutions are used to to defend
:36:55. > :37:01.religious freedom. It is the best - - basis of the other constitution.
:37:01. > :37:06.The notion that secularism is used to promote militant atheism, which
:37:06. > :37:15.is as intolerant as evangelical Christians -- in evangelical
:37:15. > :37:19.Christian isn't, is nonsense. very simple question here, who is
:37:19. > :37:24.in charge in this country? The politicians or the judges? It was
:37:24. > :37:27.interesting at the start, you said about politicians and carrying. We
:37:27. > :37:36.often used to pray that the interpretation of our legislation
:37:36. > :37:39.would be right in the law courts. I say this, whilst the Secretary of
:37:39. > :37:45.State does ultimately have the power through Parliament, the
:37:45. > :37:49.problem is is rushing through legislation or interpreting it in a
:37:49. > :37:55.way. The danger is it end up being bad legislation, we have surfer --
:37:55. > :38:01.suffered from that in the past. It is essential that politicians who
:38:02. > :38:05.set the agenda pass those resolutions that become law,
:38:05. > :38:09.ultimately, our governing for there right reasons, which is about
:38:09. > :38:19.affairs of society and whatever way you go there, whoever guide today,
:38:19. > :38:19.
:38:19. > :38:28.whether it be this God, that court or at as a fierce, -- that guard or
:38:28. > :38:32.as an atheist, that is it. Let's bring this back to the south-east.
:38:32. > :38:35.We have more practising Christians than any other region. Do you
:38:35. > :38:40.really understand the dynamics of the rest of the country? You live
:38:41. > :38:45.in London. I do, but I think it is a question of principle. We're not
:38:46. > :38:51.trying to stop people praying, we are just saying, do it beforehand
:38:51. > :38:57.order it in silence so there is no conflict. We should not be mixing
:38:57. > :39:00.politics and religion in this way. Thank you for being with us. We
:39:01. > :39:04.will be fascinated to find out what happens with the lawyers on Monday.
:39:04. > :39:07.Earlier, we talked about the number of young people out of work in the
:39:07. > :39:10.South East. Now you might expect the government to encourage older
:39:10. > :39:11.people to retire and make way for the youngsters. But that's not
:39:12. > :39:14.what's happening. Instead, government advisers on the
:39:14. > :39:17.Behavioural Insight team, otherwise known as the nudge unit, are busily
:39:17. > :39:19.encouraging older people to carry on working past retirement age.
:39:20. > :39:22.They're also urging them sell or rent their homes to younger
:39:23. > :39:25.families. It's all part of a strategy to deal with the growing
:39:26. > :39:35.challenge of an ageing population. But what does it mean for you?
:39:36. > :39:36.
:39:36. > :39:41.The south-east has more people over the age of 60 than anywhere else in
:39:41. > :39:44.the country. That will increase as life expectancy increases. One of
:39:44. > :39:54.the Prime Minister's advisers made controversial suggestions recently
:39:54. > :39:57.on how to deal with the ageing population. The adviser said that
:39:57. > :40:02.old people get lonely and this could be avoided by encouraging
:40:02. > :40:05.them to work past the age of retirement. 68 year-old Dave lives
:40:05. > :40:12.on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent and agrees that he would be too lonely
:40:12. > :40:16.without his job, on the road, selling and range of drinks. It is
:40:16. > :40:21.not want to -- I do not want us at home and get cold, I want to go and
:40:21. > :40:27.meet people and talk to people. We are on the coast, 12 miles from the
:40:27. > :40:33.nearest supermarket, two miles from the village, it is pretty isolated.
:40:33. > :40:38.But we love it. But it is isolated, we would not seek very many people
:40:38. > :40:43.if we were not working. Also 68 and still working his neck -- North
:40:43. > :40:52.Thanet MP Sir Roger Gale. Whilst many people said they averaged at
:40:52. > :40:59.the suggestion of working longer, he says this is synthetic. This is
:40:59. > :41:04.false, no one is making anyone work longer. OK, so retirement age goes
:41:04. > :41:08.to 66 from 65, but can we seriously say we don't -- can't cope with
:41:08. > :41:11.that? I do not want to work, my wife does not want to stop work,
:41:11. > :41:16.and if we did stop, we would have to do something voluntary or we
:41:16. > :41:20.would go mad. I think for a lot of elderly people, either employment
:41:20. > :41:24.or voluntary employment is not only a very good thing but absolutely
:41:24. > :41:31.essential. I know far too many of my elderly constituents who
:41:31. > :41:34.vegetate at home doing nothing. idea of two -- the idea of working
:41:34. > :41:39.longer came from the government's behavioural insight team, which
:41:39. > :41:43.aims to change people's behaviour through psychology and without
:41:43. > :41:47.legislation. They also said that under occupation of houses is a
:41:47. > :41:52.problem. The government is keen to make people who live in big houses
:41:52. > :41:59.move out and make way for big houses -- young families. They will
:41:59. > :42:05.make payments according to the number of bedrooms in the property
:42:05. > :42:09.being vacated. Saga, and number -- an organisation for long people --
:42:09. > :42:14.old people, says that is social engineering. Others say it is
:42:14. > :42:18.crucial especially in busy areas. About a third of properties are
:42:18. > :42:24.under occupied, meaning they have got more than one spare bedroom. In
:42:24. > :42:27.the south-east, 40% of homes are under occupied. The problem needs
:42:27. > :42:34.to be addressed. We are not accusing any individuals of being
:42:34. > :42:40.selfish in wanting to stay at home, but what we are saying is, as a
:42:40. > :42:43.society, we older people, myself included, are being selfish if we
:42:43. > :42:47.do not share the housing fairly between the older generation and
:42:47. > :42:51.the younger generation. But is it offensive to older people to
:42:51. > :42:56.suggest they should downsize their homes? Homes are for people to live
:42:56. > :42:59.in, not for people to rattle around in. Given that there is a desperate
:42:59. > :43:03.need for family housing, I want to see as much of the property that
:43:03. > :43:08.we've already got properly used, that his social housing, also
:43:08. > :43:14.private housing. Would you consider downsizing this House? I have every
:43:14. > :43:16.intention, and my wife, of downsizing at the right time.
:43:17. > :43:21.Extending working life and downsizing family homes are
:43:21. > :43:27.controversial ideas. But are they are examples of social engineering
:43:27. > :43:31.gone mad Orme nothing more than a nudge in the right direction?
:43:31. > :43:35.Joining us in the studio is Jeremy Birch, the Labour leader of
:43:35. > :43:40.Hastings Borough Council. Let's start with the pensioners working
:43:40. > :43:48.longer. No coercion, just and large, anything wrong with that? When some
:43:48. > :43:56.people saw that night, they thought it was a hefty shove. There are
:43:56. > :43:59.900,000 over 65 year-olds economic the active, already working. I do
:43:59. > :44:04.not know why, whether they are lonely or want social interaction
:44:04. > :44:07.or whether energy prices have driven them out to get more income.
:44:07. > :44:11.There is nothing wrong with people working longer, but they should not
:44:11. > :44:16.be any compulsion or pressure to do that. Do you think they are being
:44:16. > :44:20.made to feel guilty, if they are not forced, to stay in a job or
:44:20. > :44:24.about the size of their houses? think the size of their houses is a
:44:24. > :44:29.ridiculous argument. We are trying to blame all the people for the
:44:29. > :44:32.fact we are not building homes. Less homes built than any time
:44:32. > :44:35.since the second year -- Second World War. We need the mortgage
:44:35. > :44:42.market opened up and more investment into social housing so
:44:42. > :44:45.we can get Butikofer -- accommodation people need. My
:44:45. > :44:49.mother downsized recently, she was not pressured, it was the
:44:49. > :44:52.appropriate thing to do. There should be no pressure of people
:44:52. > :44:54.doing anything, they should work on the basis of their own
:44:54. > :44:58.understanding of their personal needs, we need to tackle the lack
:44:58. > :45:03.of housing in the country. people want to downsize, what about
:45:03. > :45:06.helping that to do that? In London they have a project whereby you
:45:06. > :45:10.encourage people, you offer them the ability to rent something
:45:10. > :45:14.smaller and more suitable for them, and they let out their old family
:45:14. > :45:19.home to a family that needs it, would you try that in Hastings?
:45:19. > :45:26.Absolutely, in Redbridge, we have looked into a. It has got to be on
:45:26. > :45:30.the basis of a harmonious basis between the family and the older
:45:30. > :45:34.person. A co-operative arrangement with no compulsion on anyway -- on
:45:34. > :45:39.anyone. Let's talk about persuasion politics, does it work? I don't
:45:39. > :45:43.think it best -- does necessarily. If you are going to encouraging
:45:43. > :45:46.people to do that, you cannot be asking all the people to leave the
:45:46. > :45:52.family home where they have brought up their children, and saying, you
:45:52. > :45:56.have got to get out for making way for others, you cannot have that.
:45:56. > :46:02.What you do need to do, one of the things might be to induce the bank
:46:02. > :46:09.bonus levy so you can build from that 24,000 affordable homes that
:46:09. > :46:13.it would help to meet the needs that Jeremy is talking about for
:46:13. > :46:16.all the people who get a proper opportunity to downsize. Your
:46:16. > :46:21.government did not build enough houses, this is not a new problem.
:46:21. > :46:24.I am not saying we are perfect. You are right, the other scale his
:46:24. > :46:30.youth unemployment and long-term unemployment, it has more than
:46:30. > :46:34.doubled in the last year just in Gillingham and Rainham. The other
:46:34. > :46:39.end, people working longer, but we have got a whole situation whereby
:46:39. > :46:44.we have got an economy which is not being encouraged to develop jobs
:46:44. > :46:50.and opportunities. One other thing, Roger Gale was talking about, not
:46:50. > :46:54.just about work but keeping busy, doing voluntary work. You only need
:46:54. > :46:58.to look at the last year, the cuts in grants to voluntary
:46:58. > :47:03.organisations that have been forced upon local authorities, probably
:47:03. > :47:07.true in Hastings and Kent, and in Medway, to be able to support those
:47:07. > :47:10.opportunities, they have disappeared. We are ending up with
:47:10. > :47:15.people being forced to stay in their homes, become lonely which we
:47:15. > :47:20.know is not a good thing. Let's look at whether or not to be
:47:20. > :47:23.government has pensioner's best interests at heart -- at heart,
:47:23. > :47:27.what is at the heart of this? is the kind of thing the government
:47:27. > :47:31.does when it cannot afford to change economic and social reality,
:47:31. > :47:35.it tries to change reality by wishing it away. This is happening
:47:35. > :47:40.because old people cannot afford not to work. Pension pot of tiny,
:47:40. > :47:44.people who have worked in the private sector cannot afford to
:47:44. > :47:48.support themselves so they have to go to work. The housing crisis, you
:47:48. > :47:52.are right, we need more houses. Labour did not build an, the
:47:52. > :47:56.Conservatives are not building them, but they will not wish away the
:47:56. > :48:01.housing crisis by encouraging a few older people to move into smaller
:48:01. > :48:11.homes, it would not even be a drop in the ocean. The real solution is
:48:11. > :48:16.
:48:16. > :48:20.economic. This week, for councils in Kent
:48:20. > :48:25.rejected Eric Pickles offer of a grant to freeze council cap -- tax.
:48:25. > :48:29.But Sussex Police Authority accepted his Grant Offer, at their
:48:29. > :48:32.final budget meeting before they are abolished in November, they
:48:32. > :48:36.approved �10 million worth of savings. One of the people who
:48:37. > :48:41.hopes to replace the authority is Ian Chisholm all, he is standing as
:48:41. > :48:47.an independent candidate in Sussex for the job of police get --
:48:47. > :48:50.Commissioner. It is a new role that need not be filled by a politician.
:48:50. > :48:56.The education secretary free school policy is. Going down well with
:48:56. > :49:01.some. -- parents in Hove. -- is not going down well. An application for
:49:01. > :49:05.a face based secondary school has started a war of words. Parents are
:49:05. > :49:10.divided on whether a new Christian school would increase or reduce
:49:11. > :49:15.choice. East Sussex County Council offerings 30% of windsurfing and
:49:15. > :49:20.sailing courses in when -- in Eastbourne. Who said life cannot be
:49:20. > :49:24.plain sailing? A quick thought, we have not got
:49:24. > :49:31.any time left, on the Police Commissioner. Will eight non
:49:31. > :49:34.politician ever win? I would love to think so, but the reality of our
:49:34. > :49:37.elections are organised on a party political basis. I fear we will
:49:38. > :49:43.have Labour and Conservative candidates for these jobs, not
:49:43. > :49:46.independence, would that it were otherwise. You will obviously have
:49:46. > :49:50.major political parties standing, I hope there will be Labour
:49:50. > :49:53.commissioners there. But this is money spent which could be spent on