:01:33. > :01:36.And in the South East - writing a new chapter - one of our councils
:01:36. > :01:46.wants some libraries to be staffed only by volunteers, but will it
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :30:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1729 seconds
:30:35. > :30:39.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:30:39. > :30:42.Coming up in the next twenty minutes: Smart government thinking
:30:42. > :30:46.or dumb student bashing? How changes in immigration rules could
:30:46. > :30:49.damage the region's international education sector.
:30:49. > :30:51.With me in the studio today is Immigration Minister and
:30:51. > :30:59.Conservative MP for Ashford Damian Green and Labour's Baroness Maggie
:30:59. > :31:02.Jones who lives in Sussex. Shepway District Council came under fire
:31:02. > :31:04.last week from environmentalists for planning to build a new housing
:31:05. > :31:09.development when worries about water supply are running hot with
:31:09. > :31:12.the South East officially in drought. Shepway has over 3,000
:31:12. > :31:18.people on its council housing waiting list and plans to build
:31:18. > :31:26.around 8000 new homes by 2035. So what should we worry more about -
:31:26. > :31:33.shortage of water or shortage of housing? Should we stop building
:31:33. > :31:37.houses in the south-east, Baroness, seeing as we have a short term of
:31:38. > :31:43.water shortage? We need to have a proper planning process to decide
:31:43. > :31:48.where these houses need to be built. If you allow individual councils to
:31:48. > :31:53.decide, then there could be a risk of building right across the south-
:31:53. > :31:56.east of England, so there needs to be a plan for where the houses
:31:56. > :32:01.should be and how these scarce resources like what it would be
:32:01. > :32:05.used. Water needs to be taken into account under the planning
:32:05. > :32:10.proposals and sustainability? Sustainability has been bandied
:32:10. > :32:14.about too often without people being honest about what it means.
:32:14. > :32:17.Sustainable development is lovely, I support it, but if you talk about
:32:17. > :32:23.water in the context of sustainability, he mean people
:32:23. > :32:28.being able to put the water back that they have used. We will run
:32:28. > :32:32.out of resources quickly. Damian Green, it has been raining hard on
:32:32. > :32:38.and off all week, this is not a drought in the global sense, are we
:32:38. > :32:43.getting hysterical because of our language? It is a drought because
:32:43. > :32:48.there is a less rain in the south- east of England. We generally do
:32:48. > :32:53.have issues with water supplies. We need to build more houses, we need
:32:53. > :32:57.to preserve the water supplies and do better at resiting and have more
:32:57. > :33:01.water meters, but I fundamentally disagreed that you need a big
:33:01. > :33:05.central plan for housing. It is better for housing growth to be
:33:05. > :33:09.decided at a local level by local communities that know best what the
:33:09. > :33:14.committee can sustain. This drought is not going away quickly, we will
:33:14. > :33:16.be back to lead to very quickly. The jury seems to be out on Prime
:33:16. > :33:19.Minister David Cameron's Big Society initiative, but one local
:33:19. > :33:23.authority seems to have taken the message to heart. In Surrey, the
:33:23. > :33:26.County Council wants to replace paid staff in 10 of its 52 local
:33:26. > :33:29.libraries with volunteers, claiming it's the only way it can afford to
:33:29. > :33:32.keep them open. But earlier this month the High Court called this
:33:32. > :33:42.decision 'unlawful' and will make a further ruling in May on how the
:33:42. > :33:56.
:33:56. > :34:01.Council should act on its library Libraries have been around for
:34:01. > :34:05.centuries, but their future is uncertain. Like everything in the
:34:05. > :34:09.public sector, if they are feeling the pinch. Across the south-east,
:34:09. > :34:14.different councils have different plans for the libraries. Kent
:34:14. > :34:19.county councillors making funding cuts and reducing the library
:34:19. > :34:24.budget by �4 million. East Sussex is investing money. �12 million
:34:24. > :34:29.invested in new libraries in the next few years. However, Surrey has
:34:29. > :34:35.a different process. It has 52 libraries but the county council is
:34:35. > :34:41.laying off existing staff at 10 of those, one fifth of the total and
:34:41. > :34:46.run them with unpaid volunteers. Surrey County Council says getting
:34:46. > :34:50.volunteers would save it �380,000 a year. The Government is keen to get
:34:50. > :34:58.local people to play a bigger part in helping their community - the
:34:58. > :35:00.big societies. Surrey's plans play into this. But there is a lot of
:35:00. > :35:10.local opposition. This library in East Sussex Surrey is one of the
:35:10. > :35:14.10th. To say that the locals are incensed is exactly what they are.
:35:14. > :35:22.We have some part-time library staff, as follows volunteers are
:35:22. > :35:29.concerned with necessary back-up, we contemplate we need between 50
:35:29. > :35:36.and 70 volunteers. We need them to give the same level of service. It
:35:36. > :35:41.is just not feasible. It is potty. Plenty of other Surrey residents
:35:41. > :35:44.also do not like the plans. Taking something that is needed by the
:35:44. > :35:48.local community, I don't think they should. They should not touch it at
:35:49. > :35:54.all. If it could work but I would rather have trained people that
:35:54. > :36:01.repaid to do the job. Id might lead to the libraries being shut down
:36:01. > :36:06.and going completely. A campaign group in the locality to cancel to
:36:06. > :36:16.the High Court. In be started this month, the court ruled that the
:36:16. > :36:17.
:36:17. > :36:21.plans were on life for. -- unlawful. It covered training for people with
:36:21. > :36:25.special needs and other issues, and there will be another hearing next
:36:25. > :36:28.month for the court would decide what happens next. The chairman of
:36:28. > :36:32.the group said it was difficult to see that the training outlined
:36:32. > :36:37.comes even close to properly addressing these issues. The Lib
:36:37. > :36:40.Dems on Surrey County Council are also opposed to be changes.
:36:40. > :36:46.familiarity of seeing the same professional librarian every week
:36:46. > :36:52.is part of the benefit of a local library. Obviously with many
:36:52. > :36:57.volunteers and a different person every week, that would be less of a
:36:57. > :37:00.benefit for this. I think that these plans should be abandoned and
:37:00. > :37:04.they are completely flawed. They are not wanted by local residents
:37:04. > :37:10.and I am certainly pressing the administration to abandon these
:37:10. > :37:15.plans as soon as possible. Is this the big society? Not my idea of the
:37:15. > :37:19.big society. I think people should genuinely volunteer and not be
:37:19. > :37:28.forced into these roles. If the county council cannot get
:37:28. > :37:38.volunteers, does it closed the book on the big society in Serie? --
:37:38. > :37:41.Surrey? Helen drew reporting. Joining me now is Surrey County
:37:41. > :37:49.Council Cabinet Member for Community Services Helyn Clack.
:37:49. > :37:56.Real inspired by the big society? We wanted the ball 52 libraries
:37:56. > :38:02.open when other counties have to close. -- we want to keep all of
:38:02. > :38:05.the 52 libraries. They represent 7% of all of the use of libraries, but
:38:05. > :38:10.the communities want to keep them open, so we're doing this by
:38:10. > :38:17.getting in volunteers. If you want to save �380,000, why not spread
:38:17. > :38:24.the burden, a cut of �7,000 each? Some of the libraries are reaching
:38:24. > :38:27.communities across the county. My local library in Dorking is
:38:27. > :38:30.quadrupling the amount of people that have joined it and provide
:38:30. > :38:38.services for lots and lots of families as well as ordinary users.
:38:38. > :38:41.We need extra staff to cater for increasing numbers. It is not a
:38:41. > :38:45.question of one size fits all, we need to cater for the larger
:38:45. > :38:53.libraries, but we need to maintain all of the community libraries or
:38:53. > :38:59.so. But he made the point that some only represent 70 % of usage, some
:38:59. > :39:04.as be even 1%, some people need to close these libraries?! We think
:39:04. > :39:09.this is a brilliant idea, we do have to make local cutbacks, and
:39:09. > :39:13.Surrey county council is looking at �2 million in the next two years,
:39:13. > :39:16.but we have consulted the local people and they have said that a
:39:16. > :39:22.baby deal of the local library, please do not close them, so we
:39:22. > :39:26.have developed a plan to use local volunteers. You described it as a
:39:26. > :39:31.brilliant, in the reported was described as potty, flawed as not
:39:31. > :39:35.wanted, you have an administrative nightmare, more people than staff,
:39:35. > :39:41.if they need to be managed, and a High Court pointed out that you
:39:41. > :39:46.need a better training scheme for a best. Do you regret the decision?
:39:46. > :39:53.No, this was about it technicality that the Cabinet decision was not
:39:53. > :39:57.properly informed of the work that was being carried out. We have
:39:57. > :40:00.volunteers at all parts of the society and professional people
:40:00. > :40:05.working as volunteers and retired people working as volunteers. There
:40:05. > :40:11.is no reason why they shouldn't be properly trained and supported and
:40:11. > :40:17.be able to help. Stay with us, Baroness, you do not approve of
:40:17. > :40:20.volunteers, the items were set out coherently. A librarian is a
:40:20. > :40:26.professional job and takes three years to qualify, it is not just
:40:26. > :40:30.about stamping books, it is a range of services. Is this insulting to a
:40:30. > :40:34.professional librarian? And have to say around the country, the good
:40:34. > :40:41.libraries already work with foreign tears, but to replace one role with
:40:41. > :40:44.another is the wrong way to go. -- with volunteers. There is a role
:40:44. > :40:49.for professional volunteers and reading groups and issues like this,
:40:49. > :40:54.but the essence of a librarian's job as a professional, scaled the
:40:54. > :41:00.job and it cannot be learnt overnight. Damian Green, an example
:41:00. > :41:05.of the big society at last, just a shame it means people losing jobs!
:41:05. > :41:09.A approve of what Surrey county councillors trying, and it is
:41:09. > :41:13.depressing to hear a litany of objections about training and that
:41:13. > :41:16.sort of thing, there will be intelligent, committed to local
:41:16. > :41:21.people desperate to keep their libraries opened and have a chance
:41:21. > :41:26.to keep them open. The amount of opposition is depressing. People
:41:26. > :41:28.often say, what does the big society mean? It means you might
:41:28. > :41:32.have a local library where you would not have won otherwise
:41:32. > :41:37.because people are prepared to volunteer and give up their time
:41:37. > :41:46.and expertise to have their local community. An endorsement from a
:41:46. > :41:50.Government Minister at there. We couldn't have the Immigration
:41:50. > :41:53.Minister on without doing an item on the subject and the big story at
:41:53. > :41:55.the moment is student visas. The South East has a thriving
:41:55. > :41:58.international education sector which turns over an estimated �270
:41:58. > :42:02.million a year, with Brighton and Hove alone generating a whopping
:42:02. > :42:05.�122 million. But new changes to visa applications making it more
:42:05. > :42:07.difficult for foreign students to stay in the country after finishing
:42:07. > :42:09.their courses could damage this successful export industry,
:42:09. > :42:14.according to English UK, the body representing foreign language
:42:14. > :42:17.schools. It says that some of its members in East Sussex and Kent
:42:17. > :42:20.have already lost up to 92 per cent of their longer term overseas
:42:20. > :42:23.students as a result of the government's new rules' How real is
:42:23. > :42:33.this concern and what's the long term effect likely to be on the
:42:33. > :42:34.
:42:34. > :42:41.UK's �14 billion international education sector? It is not just
:42:41. > :42:44.English UK, the panic is spreading to the universities, and the
:42:44. > :42:47.President of the University of Sussex said it will damage the
:42:47. > :42:51.international student market and we are sending out an unwelcome
:42:51. > :42:54.message that we run the risk of losing valuable students and a
:42:54. > :43:00.valuable export industry to countries like Canada, America and
:43:00. > :43:03.Australia, or why run that risk? The biggest single loophole of an
:43:03. > :43:07.immigration system that was widely agreed as chaotic and that of
:43:07. > :43:12.control over much of the last 10 years was at the student visa
:43:12. > :43:15.system. It is about two-thirds of the immigration total into this
:43:15. > :43:21.country and the changes to which people are objecting artist of
:43:21. > :43:24.students from staying here for up to two years after finishing their
:43:24. > :43:34.degree to Love Parade job. They have the absolute right to stay for
:43:34. > :43:34.
:43:34. > :43:38.two years. -- after finishing their degree to look for a job. We have
:43:38. > :43:43.said you can stay here if you were offered a graduate level job. These
:43:43. > :43:50.people hanging around living on benefits, in the court we looked at,
:43:50. > :43:55.of the total of long-term students year, roughly speaking, only one-
:43:55. > :44:00.third of them work in graduate level jobs. Another third were in
:44:00. > :44:04.unskilled jobs and one-third were not employed at all, so the vast
:44:04. > :44:08.majority of them were not going to graduate level jobs. I thought the
:44:08. > :44:18.bigger agenda was bogus students. If you close that down and you said
:44:18. > :44:20.
:44:20. > :44:23.in a recent in into view, if that was the big issue, why not if the
:44:23. > :44:27.universities are saying that everyone talking about this as this
:44:27. > :44:31.is a real risk, this is potentially the economic future, some of the
:44:31. > :44:34.best universities in the country we have got, they are frightened, what
:44:34. > :44:39.is your message to them? They should not be frightened because
:44:39. > :44:44.genuine students coming to study at Jenny when institutions will not be
:44:44. > :44:50.threatened at tall, and it would be a shame to scare mongering around
:44:50. > :44:54.this. -- genuine institutions. The bogus students, we have done a lot
:44:54. > :44:58.to close down that loophole and that is very important, but all of
:44:58. > :45:02.my immigration experience is when you close one loophole, another one
:45:02. > :45:08.emerges and in any case, at a time when unemployment is starting to
:45:08. > :45:12.come down, at a time when one in five UK graduates is unemployed, to
:45:12. > :45:16.say that what we want is a system that encourages foreign students
:45:16. > :45:21.not to come here to study, but to hang around for two years after
:45:21. > :45:26.their degree just to look for work seems to be ludicrous. The reality
:45:26. > :45:29.is you have to do things that are economic the damaging because you
:45:29. > :45:33.have at haggard that was said by David Cameron on immigration
:45:33. > :45:40.bringing it down from hundreds of thousands to tens of thousands and
:45:40. > :45:45.the easiest target is students. -- you have a target set by David
:45:45. > :45:48.Cameron. It is not true that every student that come serious economic
:45:48. > :45:55.the beneficial to the country. We want to attract the brightest and
:45:55. > :45:59.the best, we want more than our fair share, but we cannot do that
:45:59. > :46:04.by saying we will let him any body at all. What every level of subject
:46:04. > :46:08.they are studying, what every level of academic achievement, and if
:46:08. > :46:12.they really want to come here to work rather than study, people that
:46:12. > :46:15.come as students, their principal aim must be to study and not to
:46:15. > :46:20.come here and look for work for years and years which is what
:46:20. > :46:23.happened in the past. Baroness Jones, I know you're worried about
:46:23. > :46:27.the University of Sussex and their future, other countries have gone
:46:28. > :46:31.down this route of removing foreign students from the overall
:46:31. > :46:34.emigration had relations, then this way there is no reason to
:46:34. > :46:40.artificially try and bring numbers down. Other countries do not
:46:40. > :46:44.include them, is this the way forward? Can I say, it is important
:46:44. > :46:48.that we deal with the question of bogus colleges and bogus students.
:46:48. > :46:52.When we were in power with Labour, we were equally emphatic about this,
:46:52. > :46:57.but I think we are sending the wrong tone by what we're doing at
:46:57. > :47:01.the moment. We are making applicants feel as if they are
:47:01. > :47:05.potential criminals and we will be using students to the likes of
:47:05. > :47:09.America, Australia and other places around the world that are much more
:47:09. > :47:13.attractive to them. It is not just about the economics of them coming
:47:14. > :47:17.to pay for the cause, paying for the jobs that they create, but
:47:17. > :47:21.there is a longer term benefit in terms of the contribution to
:47:21. > :47:27.research and when they go back to their countries, they take a very
:47:27. > :47:31.strong message about the UK, the ethos, the UK values, and it is a
:47:31. > :47:35.long-term benefits that we encourage students to come here.
:47:35. > :47:42.This is all embedded in immigration numbers Siraj a cat separates Itsu,
:47:42. > :47:50.and Labour consistently failed on the immigration policy and how it
:47:50. > :47:55.worked. -- embedded in immigration numbers here and it is a separate
:47:55. > :47:59.issue. I have always thought that we needed control and limitations
:47:59. > :48:02.on immigration. We took steps in the past and we have supported a
:48:02. > :48:07.number of things that the Government has done so we are not
:48:07. > :48:14.soft on immigration. We need to be more welcoming to people to come
:48:14. > :48:17.here and the truth is, applications are going down from overseas
:48:17. > :48:24.students and we're losing down in the global battle for Education.
:48:24. > :48:34.The Thank you. Now, a weekly round- up with our political editor,
:48:34. > :48:34.
:48:34. > :48:37.Louise Stewart. The aviation Minister has suggested
:48:37. > :48:42.for the first time that Manston Airport in Kent could have increase
:48:42. > :48:52.capacity in the south-east. She reiterated her opposition to a
:48:52. > :48:53.
:48:53. > :48:57.third Rana -- runway at Heathrow. Ken Clarke hailed the success in
:48:57. > :49:01.backing the bright and decorated reform Europe's human rights court.
:49:01. > :49:06.The Dean of Canterbury Cathedral has accused the Chancellor of a tax
:49:06. > :49:11.rate on the nation's heritage. He has warned of the major delays to a
:49:11. > :49:15.multi-million-pound programme to repair a medieval buildings. And at
:49:15. > :49:20.Chapeltown winery you can get red wine, white wine and even if a
:49:20. > :49:27.fruit derived alcoholic beverage from sources outside the EU. The
:49:27. > :49:37.MEP Nigel Farage raised the issue in the European Parliament after he
:49:37. > :49:43.was told that Argentinian grades could not be sold as wind in Kent.
:49:43. > :49:47.It is interesting to think about Manston suddenly being discussed,
:49:47. > :49:53.is the same move forward, Damian Green? A credible alternative to
:49:53. > :49:57.Boris Ireland? Yes, with the whole review that the Justice Secretary
:49:57. > :50:02.would you have aviation in the south-east, it puts Manston in the
:50:02. > :50:06.mix. -- the aviation secretary. It has the high-speed rail link and if