:01:30. > :01:35.In the south-east, left in the dark. Where residents are being Kent and
:01:35. > :01:45.Sussex are concerned about safety and accidents if more of their
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :37:26.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2141 seconds
:37:26. > :37:29.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:37:30. > :37:32.Coming up later: Attack of the drones. Could unmanned surveillance
:37:32. > :37:37.aircraft be used in Kent in the fight against international crime
:37:37. > :37:39.and illegal immigration? Joining me in the studio today is Police
:37:39. > :37:44.Minister and Conservative MP for Ashford Damian Green, and South
:37:44. > :37:47.East MEP and leader of UKIP Nigel Farage. Figures released from the
:37:47. > :37:50.2011 Census show that the South East population is growing faster
:37:50. > :37:53.than the national average and that there are more than 1.7 million
:37:53. > :37:57.people living in Medway and Kent alone. The South East also has the
:37:57. > :38:07.highest number of foreign born residents outside London. Is this a
:38:07. > :38:10.
:38:10. > :38:18.positive development? Ed Miliband is proud of multi-ethnic diverse
:38:18. > :38:24.Britain. Are you proud? Yes, but the issue Ed Miliband did not
:38:24. > :38:29.address with the fact that Labour had uncontrolled immigration. That
:38:29. > :38:33.was why the coalition government have reduced migration from the
:38:33. > :38:38.quarter a million of the year to 180,000 the year and will reduce it
:38:38. > :38:43.further. At those lower levels, we can enjoy what he knew people bring
:38:43. > :38:47.to this country without having the threat of social disorder. We are
:38:47. > :38:53.talking about the sort of people and the countries they come from in
:38:53. > :39:03.a minute. Nigel, Ed Miliband has tried to defy -- detoxify the
:39:03. > :39:09.
:39:09. > :39:17.Labour Brandt on immigration. sounded like a you Kipp speech. --
:39:17. > :39:20.UKIP. Maybe it's a good thing that Ed Miliband is admitting they have
:39:20. > :39:27.got things wrong, but you can't integrate people if you have the
:39:27. > :39:33.numbers that would have had coming into this country. Immigration
:39:33. > :39:40.around at 50,000 people a year. It is running at half a million people
:39:40. > :39:45.a year. We have got this fact that we've got a higher-than-average
:39:45. > :39:51.level of foreign-born people, but Kent is whiter than the national
:39:51. > :39:57.average, which leads me to believe we're talking about Polish people.
:39:57. > :40:01.Polish people coming into the country, that is an issue that you
:40:01. > :40:04.cannot tackle the few state in the EU. You have come up with a major
:40:04. > :40:12.speech this week saying, that's exactly where we need to be,
:40:12. > :40:19.fighting in the EU. Those who say, let pull-out, they have to explain
:40:19. > :40:24.to the big foreign companies who we want to invest here why it is safer
:40:24. > :40:33.to invest outside the EU than inside. I think it's economic
:40:33. > :40:36.madness. On the Polish issue, is the sense of scale. They are by and
:40:36. > :40:41.large hard-working, respectable citizens. The problem comes when
:40:42. > :40:46.you get the numbers out of kilter, as we did under Labour. But you
:40:46. > :40:56.can't stop the numbers coming in from eastern Europe. It's totally
:40:56. > :41:05.
:41:05. > :41:13.illegal. -- legal. Conservative Party in Westminster said we should
:41:13. > :41:17.not have had a completely open door at that time. Croatia is coming
:41:17. > :41:24.into the EU and we have said, we will have the full seven-year
:41:24. > :41:28.transition for Croatia that we need. On the 1st January, 2014, we open
:41:28. > :41:34.the doors completely to 29 million people from Romania and Bulgaria,
:41:34. > :41:44.countries that are far poorer than Poland. Are we are looking down the
:41:44. > :41:44.
:41:44. > :41:50.barrel of a to massive migratory invasion. We have talked about Kent,
:41:50. > :41:56.you seem to put a lot of faith in the locals in York pub. We have
:41:56. > :42:06.quoted there and to the Peter Gay marriage as a reason to block it.
:42:06. > :42:09.
:42:09. > :42:13.Any her -- to gay marriage. Are they the hard-working people?
:42:13. > :42:19.of the people who came initially were skilled people doing good jobs,
:42:19. > :42:24.and Poland has been the loser. Now, because of a change in social
:42:24. > :42:32.security rules, you can get jobs and housing benefit. There is
:42:32. > :42:42.something wrong with that. safety you feel walking home late
:42:42. > :42:42.
:42:42. > :42:45.at night? -- how safe do you feel? In Kent and East Sussex, local
:42:45. > :42:47.authorities are planning to reduce their energy bills by switching off
:42:48. > :42:51.up to 8,000 street lights. Consultations are taking place all
:42:51. > :42:56.over the South East. But will this measure increase the risk of crime
:42:56. > :43:01.and accidents at night? Lucinda Adam has this report. In the dark
:43:01. > :43:06.days of austerity, the lights are about to get darker. In East Sussex
:43:06. > :43:10.and Kent, county council's plan to reduce it street lighting to save
:43:10. > :43:15.money and cut carbon emissions. In some streets, every other light
:43:15. > :43:18.will be turned off. Some light will be dimmed, and in some residential
:43:18. > :43:23.areas, the lights will go out completely between midnight and
:43:23. > :43:28.5:30am. In this housing estate in stone cross, the light had been
:43:28. > :43:33.modified to switch off after midnight. A Council consultation
:43:33. > :43:38.showed people support the move. But that is based on just 16 responses.
:43:38. > :43:45.Residents we spoke to were not so sure. I don't like the idea of it.
:43:45. > :43:54.I'm petrified of the dark and I've got to docks. If it is like, you
:43:54. > :44:00.can see what's going on. -- I have got two Dogs. It would be
:44:00. > :44:09.ridiculous to have utter darkness. Charles Rist des Bexhill. He was a
:44:09. > :44:16.policeman for 36 years. -- Charles lives in Bexhill. It is the fear of
:44:16. > :44:21.it. If it is pitch black in areas where people live, the fear of
:44:21. > :44:27.crime is just going to increase an increase. That is not good. There
:44:27. > :44:34.are other ways they could cut their costs. Cutting out street light,
:44:34. > :44:39.and raising the fear of crime, is not a good way to do it. It is
:44:39. > :44:48.going to hurt people. Research by the a shows while only a quarter of
:44:48. > :44:56.car journeys are made after dark, 45 % of injuries happen at night --
:44:56. > :45:02.research by the a. Here, there was a campaign at this notorious
:45:02. > :45:10.junction. Now, the county council plans to turn off the light after
:45:10. > :45:16.midnight. It is a very dangerous junction. Coming home late at night
:45:16. > :45:21.in the dark and fog, I would miss this turn-off, as many drivers
:45:21. > :45:27.would. I don't think you can put saving money on people's lives. I
:45:27. > :45:37.really don't. I have lived here for 30 years and to see the improvement
:45:37. > :45:39.
:45:39. > :45:45.on this corner, it is surely not worth the risk. But Field was the
:45:45. > :45:49.trial area for East Sussex. Some of the lights went off here one year
:45:49. > :45:54.ago. But residents campaigned to get the light turned back on after
:45:54. > :46:04.an increase in crime and anti- social heard -- behaviour. Last
:46:04. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:09.year, on New year's Day, the -- we had some fighting on the street. A
:46:09. > :46:12.young lady was trying to call the police because her boyfriend get
:46:12. > :46:18.injured, but she didn't know where she was because it was pitch black.
:46:18. > :46:22.If the light had been on, perhaps that would have been actively
:46:22. > :46:31.discouraged. There are one of and 60,000 street lights in Kent and
:46:31. > :46:37.East Sussex. -- 160,000. East Sussex spend �1.4 million on
:46:37. > :46:41.electricity. These changes will make savings of just �400,000 and
:46:41. > :46:46.�160,000. With relatively minor savings, his street lighting the
:46:46. > :46:51.right place for councils to be making cuts? Warded the risks of
:46:51. > :47:00.crime, accidents and people's well- being outweigh the financial
:47:00. > :47:10.benefits? Carl Maynard is responsible for these plans to
:47:10. > :47:11.
:47:11. > :47:18.switch off Street likes. You put an -- you shouldn't put people's lives
:47:18. > :47:23.at risk. Are you doing the right thing? Returning down at some
:47:23. > :47:32.street lights and dimming some, -- We are planning to turn down some
:47:32. > :47:40.street lights and dim sum. understand only 16 people took part
:47:40. > :47:44.in one of the consultations. It is not very robust. I have to say in
:47:45. > :47:54.the consultations we have had, 49 % of people questioned were in favour,
:47:55. > :47:54.
:47:55. > :47:58.27 % not in favour and 24 % who didn't express a preference.
:47:58. > :48:01.Home Office study, including research carried out in Dover,
:48:01. > :48:05.overwhelmingly concluded that crime drops when you improve street
:48:05. > :48:10.lights. A lot of people just feel safer when the lights on. There's a
:48:10. > :48:15.lot of evidence, and you're still saying you're doing the right
:48:15. > :48:21.thing? The evidence there doesn't actually show that. One of your
:48:21. > :48:25.people said earlier on that it is about a fear of crime. We're
:48:25. > :48:30.working with police to make sure that that isn't the case, that
:48:30. > :48:34.there is not a statistical increase in crime. We are in a situation
:48:34. > :48:42.where we are looking at making severe cuts in terms of our revenue
:48:42. > :48:46.budget. Money that we have to spend every day. To save �160,000 per
:48:46. > :48:55.annum, to save the emissions of carbon Dunlop -- carbon dioxide, it
:48:55. > :49:00.is a double benefit. Could does small savings improve the economy?
:49:00. > :49:07.I'm not inventing the Home Office study, it indicated overwhelmingly,
:49:07. > :49:09.crime drops when Street likes are improved. Let's be very clear. We
:49:09. > :49:13.are also being sensitive to where we are making the changes. There
:49:13. > :49:17.will be certain areas and certain towns where we will not be turning
:49:17. > :49:20.off the street lights. It is not something we're doing across the
:49:20. > :49:24.whole of East Sussex. We are doing so after consultation where we
:49:24. > :49:29.don't think that the residents will be personally affected. Is there
:49:29. > :49:34.anything which will make you change your mind? You have heard a report
:49:34. > :49:38.that particular junction, people are extremely concerned. If crime
:49:39. > :49:46.goes up and there are accidents, we you revisit this? If there is an
:49:46. > :49:53.individual area where clearly it has been a problem, of course we
:49:53. > :49:57.will read is that it. Thank you very much indeed. There are
:49:58. > :50:04.absolutely certain they have made the right decision. Nigel, when
:50:04. > :50:09.you're walking home from the pub, do you mind if the lights are on
:50:09. > :50:14.off? Where I live is pretty well and we don't have any street light,
:50:14. > :50:19.but if it was my street, I would be worried about it. One the other
:50:19. > :50:23.hand, the size of government expenditure needs to be cut. The
:50:23. > :50:27.one question people would ask his they would say, we all know we are
:50:27. > :50:36.living in straitened times, but when you look at these councils and
:50:36. > :50:46.the vast sums of money being spent, some might say they could be cut
:50:46. > :50:46.
:50:46. > :50:56.made elsewhere. I think the key to it is to take this decision at as a
:50:56. > :50:58.
:50:58. > :51:04.local level as possible. It is localism shown in its best light.
:51:04. > :51:11.Sorry for the pun! I have got abilities in my constituency where
:51:11. > :51:16.they would be horrified at the thought of street lighting, because
:51:16. > :51:23.they like the natural light at night. You have got to listen to
:51:23. > :51:31.people as close to the area as you can get. Now let's talk about Kent
:51:31. > :51:38.Police. We ended up by the potential use of unmanned drones to
:51:38. > :51:43.tackle immigration. They could be used to spy on the population, but
:51:44. > :51:50.at a time of cuts to the police agencies, could these and piloted
:51:50. > :51:59.aircraft's provide an efficient solution to cross-border crime?
:51:59. > :52:05.Give us some clarity as to when this might be appropriate to to use
:52:05. > :52:12.drones over Kent and Sussex? Kent Police had not come to me to say
:52:12. > :52:17.they want to do this. We set up the National Police Air Service,
:52:17. > :52:27.helicopters, and there were no trains in that. The other point
:52:27. > :52:29.
:52:29. > :52:39.that is often missed, the Civil Aviation Authority has control over
:52:39. > :52:44.
:52:44. > :52:51.this. -- a note -- no drones. This is run by the Dutch, and they are
:52:51. > :52:55.looking at cross-border crime. The Dutch are doing it because they are
:52:55. > :52:59.talking about land borders between them and other countries. And it is
:52:59. > :53:05.used in America on the Mexican border. �51 million of taxpayers'
:53:05. > :53:10.money is being used in this country experimenting with drones. 31
:53:10. > :53:16.million given to a consortium of large defence companies to prove
:53:16. > :53:21.they can be safe with commercial jets. Kent police might not be
:53:21. > :53:26.spending money, but it taxpayers' money is being spent on this.
:53:26. > :53:35.is MoD money. That is talking about using them for military purposes,
:53:35. > :53:41.not for police purposes. The use helicopters to search for people
:53:41. > :53:49.and for sporting cars if there during a car chase. It is safer to
:53:49. > :53:56.do it from a helicopter. Drones, there are no use in that. If it
:53:56. > :54:04.could be used, Nigel Farage, to police borders, couldn't they be
:54:04. > :54:08.used to police our poorest borders? What is the point of it? Even with
:54:08. > :54:12.when we have massive illegal immigration, it just brings more
:54:12. > :54:19.amnesty. There is no point tightening border controls if women
:54:20. > :54:29.get illegal immigrants we allow them to stay anyway. -- if when we
:54:30. > :54:33.get. Is there a civil liberty issue here? I'm worried about that. I
:54:33. > :54:38.think this massive extension of the Big Brother state, where there is
:54:38. > :54:47.the ability to track your e-mails or your mobile phone conversations,
:54:47. > :54:52.it is not something I want to encourage. I don't know how drone
:54:52. > :55:02.could recognise an illegal immigrant from aid illegal
:55:02. > :55:04.
:55:04. > :55:12.immigrant -- from a legal immigrant. It is not relevant. Even if it
:55:12. > :55:18.doesn't cost them money, while Kent police bothering? -- why are Kent
:55:18. > :55:22.police bothering? They're not spending any money on it, and if
:55:22. > :55:29.somebody came along and convinced me that this was useful, I would
:55:29. > :55:34.consider it. The European Union itself wants to set up its own
:55:34. > :55:37.border agency, and they are the ones thinking about using drones.
:55:37. > :55:45.And we're not part of the system so we do keep control of our own
:55:45. > :55:55.borders. But it is also useful. When I was Immigration Minister, I
:55:55. > :55:56.
:55:56. > :56:06.supported the European wide attempts to improve the situation.
:56:06. > :56:11.
:56:11. > :56:18.He is a regular round-up of the The farming minister says there
:56:18. > :56:23.will be tougher checks on live animal exports from Ramsgate.
:56:23. > :56:27.need facilities that are appropriate and Ramsgate is not the
:56:27. > :56:32.appropriate poured for this trend. Medway is failing its children.
:56:32. > :56:37.That was the criticism after its schools came bottom in England for
:56:37. > :56:42.achievement in maths and English. If this man says most of his
:56:42. > :56:46.constituents are against plans for same-sex weddings in churches and
:56:46. > :56:51.other places of religious worship. The marriage should be between a
:56:51. > :56:56.man and a woman. Can computers predict where crime
:56:56. > :56:59.will happen? It might seem like a science-fiction film, but it's the
:56:59. > :57:04.grant-making scheme being piloted by Kent police. And you don't have
:57:04. > :57:10.to go far to have reached one of the world's topped troubled
:57:10. > :57:20.destinations in 2013. Margate has been named among to brighter Rico
:57:20. > :57:21.
:57:21. > :57:26.and Dubrovnik as the top destinations. -- Puerto Rico.
:57:26. > :57:36.So, one of your colleagues saying that man is between -- marriages
:57:36. > :57:38.
:57:38. > :57:43.between a man and a woman. Is it? think marriage is a great
:57:43. > :57:45.institution, it is one of the great stabilising factors in a civilised
:57:45. > :57:50.society. I think it should be available to as many people as
:57:50. > :57:56.possible. This man is planning on crucifying you the next election,
:57:56. > :58:02.using this as a leverage point. Are you going to let him? No, think
:58:02. > :58:04.anyone who cares about society will care about marriage. It is the
:58:04. > :58:08.bedrock of this applies society and it seemed to me that extending it
:58:08. > :58:12.to further groups of people enhances the instability of society.
:58:12. > :58:20.Are you going to quiz of by the Conservatives at the next election
:58:20. > :58:28.on the issue of gay marriage? will say this, in the brought
:58:28. > :58:32.England -- in all England, the bedrock conservative areas, the
:58:32. > :58:35.overwhelming majority of people opposed to gay marriage. It has
:58:35. > :58:41.given gay people equality and the right to pass money on when they
:58:41. > :58:51.die, but to redefine some think that is absolutely at the heart of
:58:51. > :58:53.
:58:53. > :58:57.our established Church and constitution... We are part of the
:58:57. > :59:02.European Convention on Human Rights, and if we allow marriage, the word
:59:02. > :59:05.marriage, to be used in civil ceremonies, there will be a case
:59:05. > :59:09.before the European Court of Human Rights, and the risk is that
:59:09. > :59:12.millions of people from all faiths may find themselves living in a
:59:12. > :59:19.country where there are places of worship are forced to conduct
:59:19. > :59:24.ceremonies that they find offensive. Tolerance is a two-way street. We
:59:24. > :59:28.have become tolerant of gay people in Britain and rightly so, let's be
:59:28. > :59:34.tolerant of the faith communities. But you may recognise that some
:59:34. > :59:42.other faith communities have said that they welcome this. Some do.
:59:42. > :59:46.Most don't. We have quite deliberately put on a very specific
:59:46. > :59:55.law allowing the churches that want to do it to do it, so that that
:59:55. > :59:59.kind of legal risk will not happen. I insist we finish with Margate.
:59:59. > :00:03.One of the places to visit in 20 getting. What you go on holiday