:01:31. > :01:36.Most secondary schools have opted to become academies. Should they
:01:36. > :01:46.beat privatise? Should any state school be run for profit?
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :37:04.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2117 seconds
:37:04. > :37:07.I'm Julia George and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:37:07. > :37:10.Coming up later. Could there be life in Kent's dying nuclear site
:37:10. > :37:15.in Dungeness after all? Why new proposals for nuclear power could
:37:15. > :37:18.help revive a local industry? Joining me in the studio today is
:37:18. > :37:21.Conservative MP for Dover and Deal Charlie Elphicke and the leader of
:37:21. > :37:24.the Labour Group on Brighton and Hove City Council Gill Mitchell.
:37:24. > :37:29.Welcome. We'll talk about schools in a moment but let's start with
:37:29. > :37:31.vulnerable children. Medway Council is failing to protect them. A
:37:31. > :37:34.damning Ofsted report says children are not seen quickly enough when
:37:34. > :37:44.they may be at risk. Inspectors have demanded immediate changes,
:37:44. > :37:49.
:37:49. > :37:54.the councillor in charge of children's services has apologised.
:37:54. > :37:59.I think what they should do is in the first instances look at what
:37:59. > :38:04.Kent began Hal Kemp has turned around their services and improved
:38:04. > :38:09.the quality. The lessons learned could be applied. But there was
:38:09. > :38:14.certainly a lot of money involved. The caseload was so high. It is
:38:14. > :38:17.very difficult at the moment with budgets so tight. It is a very
:38:17. > :38:22.challenging time for local government. We should not lose
:38:22. > :38:32.sight of that. They should learn the lessons and hopefully they will
:38:32. > :38:34.
:38:34. > :38:38.put their services back on track. He showed many be ring-fenced. If
:38:38. > :38:42.we cannot protect vulnerable children, what is the local
:38:42. > :38:46.authority for? It is the fact that early intervention grant funding
:38:46. > :38:51.has been cut from local authorities and what you are seeing is that
:38:51. > :38:56.valuable early work which helps to keep children out of needing the
:38:56. > :39:01.production of local authorities being cut back and therefore more
:39:01. > :39:10.of the hard end, if you like, of work falling on be be killed social
:39:10. > :39:13.workers and this Urdd -- is the problem. -- beleaguered. We would
:39:13. > :39:18.want to make sure that those child- protection services were adequately
:39:18. > :39:22.funded but also adequately managed and where we could, we would be
:39:22. > :39:27.wanting to shore up the early support for vulnerable children,
:39:27. > :39:31.vulnerable families. It is not just a problem for vulnerable families.
:39:31. > :39:36.This is a local authority that has terrible problems in terms of
:39:36. > :39:41.primary school results as well. English and mathematics results the
:39:41. > :39:44.worse in the country. Is it just failing its children? I think it
:39:44. > :39:48.needs a focus on improving primary schools and clearly they need to
:39:48. > :39:51.look at how they are doing with young children and young people and
:39:51. > :39:58.how they can give them the better chances and better opportunities in
:39:58. > :40:01.life. There is no quick fix. They need to look at what Kent did to
:40:02. > :40:06.turn around services and the investments across the country on
:40:06. > :40:10.how to make our primary schools really great. When you see they are
:40:10. > :40:15.failing in terms of primary schools, is this an authority that looks --
:40:15. > :40:19.meets to take a long hard look at children? It is difficult that once
:40:19. > :40:24.you get that level of decline two actually turn things around quickly
:40:25. > :40:28.but it is important to that parents have confidence in those schools
:40:28. > :40:32.and we have a slightly different issue with Brighton and Hove. We
:40:32. > :40:37.have a crisis of school places but luckily, our primary schools are
:40:37. > :40:40.pretty good. Every parent wants a good local school for their child.
:40:40. > :40:44.If your child does well does it matter who's running the school and
:40:44. > :40:47.how? The Head Teachers' union says it does matter. They're hold a
:40:47. > :40:51.meeting in Kent later this month urging schools to resist the
:40:51. > :40:54.pressure to become an academy. But it may be too late to hold back the
:40:54. > :40:56.tide. Nearly two thirds of Kent's secondary schools are already free
:40:56. > :40:59.of local government control. And they're being joined by a growing
:40:59. > :41:09.number of primaries. Can the government continue to fund them
:41:09. > :41:10.
:41:10. > :41:14.all? Lucinda Adam went to find out. It is an education revolution. Most
:41:14. > :41:17.secondary schools in Kent and Medway anile academies or free
:41:18. > :41:22.schools. They had broken away from local authorities and instead get
:41:22. > :41:29.funding directly from central government. They are free to decide
:41:29. > :41:33.what they teach and how they manage their finances. In Kent, 71 out of
:41:33. > :41:39.101 secondary schools are academies or are in the process of converting.
:41:39. > :41:44.In Medway, all but two schools have switched over. And in East Sussex,
:41:44. > :41:49.it is just under half. Academies began under the Labour government
:41:49. > :41:55.as a policy designed in deprived areas but under the coalition
:41:55. > :42:03.government, that policy has been expanded so now all schools can
:42:03. > :42:08.apply and so many have because they get more autonomy and more money.
:42:08. > :42:12.Academies get �25,000 to convert and hundreds of thousands of pounds
:42:12. > :42:17.towards improving buildings. Some have even been bailed out of
:42:17. > :42:24.financial difficulty. But with so many, the scheme is now a billion
:42:24. > :42:33.pounds over Budgett. The government now faces exactly what they were
:42:33. > :42:39.taught about. The demand is not sustainable. Some head teachers in
:42:39. > :42:43.the south-east now say they feel under pressure to convert. And --
:42:43. > :42:47.an academy gets 10 % more funding but that many would otherwise have
:42:47. > :42:54.gone to the local authority. Kent County Council's school Budgett has
:42:54. > :43:00.been slashed from �15 million to just �2.5 million. It is now
:43:00. > :43:03.stripped to the bowler and we are struggling to deliver our statutory
:43:03. > :43:07.responsibilities and the more schools that converter academies,
:43:07. > :43:12.the money diminishes even faster to an extent where you would have
:43:12. > :43:16.negative money to still deliver the statutory services, such as school
:43:16. > :43:24.transport, support to children with learning difficulties through the
:43:24. > :43:29.state and in process and access to specialist support. This trust is a
:43:29. > :43:31.chain of academies. It says it is getting good results from schools
:43:31. > :43:36.collaborating to share good practice and training its own
:43:36. > :43:40.teachers. Its chief executive thinks the academy system is the
:43:40. > :43:44.way forward. If you look at the number of academies, that is the
:43:44. > :43:47.number of governing bodies who feel that is the best for the future of
:43:47. > :43:52.pupils in that school. It is very positive and I think we will have
:43:52. > :43:58.more and more academies as time goes on. A be you think we could
:43:58. > :44:05.have a situation with the 100 % academies? -- do you. The that is
:44:05. > :44:09.probably the future. But can the government afford it? There's
:44:09. > :44:16.nothing worse for a head teacher, its treasurer of a governing body
:44:16. > :44:19.of a school, to not know where the next payroll is going to come from
:44:19. > :44:24.and if you take it to its logical conclusion, they could be
:44:24. > :44:28.struggling to pay a role in a few years' time. The now it has been
:44:28. > :44:32.suggested that profit-making private companies could have a role.
:44:32. > :44:42.Education secretary Michael Gove has already allowed one profit -- a
:44:42. > :44:46.school to be allowed to run for profit in Suffolk. The idea of
:44:46. > :44:50.frankly bringing in a private company would be able to make a
:44:50. > :44:55.profit out of education and education our youngsters, I think
:44:55. > :44:59.most people would find that horrible. What becomes the driving
:44:59. > :45:04.force is actually the return, the dividends, for those shareholders
:45:04. > :45:08.of that given company. I do not think private companies should make
:45:08. > :45:13.a profit. That is not the way to go. This is money from the public purse.
:45:13. > :45:20.On the money that we get, we spend on the pupils within our academies.
:45:20. > :45:24.That is the way you raise standards. I do not think it should be for
:45:24. > :45:29.chains like ours to make a profit. As the number continues to grow,
:45:29. > :45:39.how does the government planned to pay for them? By expanding the
:45:39. > :45:49.
:45:49. > :45:55.system to all schools, as it bitten You're a pretty intimately involved
:45:55. > :45:59.in government decisions about key policies like education. How does
:45:59. > :46:03.the government continued to fund the Academy's programme? It is
:46:03. > :46:05.quite straightforward. The amount of money that was being spent on
:46:05. > :46:10.schools that were in local authority control is now being
:46:10. > :46:14.spent on schools that are academies. The only difference is, you were
:46:14. > :46:17.talking about 10 % of the Budgett going to local authorities, it is
:46:17. > :46:22.now going direct to schools. It is not costing any more by having
:46:22. > :46:28.academies. It is just that the money is in the hands of the school
:46:28. > :46:34.or schools and they are able to buy services more effectively than
:46:34. > :46:38.local authorities. And none Academy schools disadvantaged? You heard
:46:38. > :46:47.the leader of the council saying they are struggling to deliver for
:46:48. > :46:57.the rest of their schools. Ali getting to a point where schools
:46:58. > :47:02.
:47:02. > :47:05.will have to become academies? -- are we. I do not think so. There
:47:05. > :47:09.are some local authorities where almost none have converted.
:47:09. > :47:11.Generally speaking, if a lot have converted in a local authority it
:47:11. > :47:15.says something about what they think of the local authority and if
:47:15. > :47:22.they are looking at the kind of numbers you are talking us looking
:47:22. > :47:27.at, if they are looking at leaving at that rate, it says something
:47:27. > :47:35.about be services. And they think they can get a better deal by going
:47:35. > :47:39.it alone. This is a transitional cost which is effectively the
:47:39. > :47:43.�25,000 which really just goes on legal fees. There is a cost of
:47:43. > :47:51.moving from one form of governance to another. But it is a one-off. It
:47:51. > :47:59.is not on overall cost. How much truth is there the Independent on
:47:59. > :48:04.Sunday has said that leak memos suggest that they are thinking of
:48:05. > :48:10.privatising academies. We have to be very careful using words like
:48:10. > :48:15.privatisation. One of the people in the film talked about there being
:48:15. > :48:20.horror that private companies would be involved. Money is spent in
:48:20. > :48:24.special schools from profit-making companies. About a third of
:48:24. > :48:28.nurseries are run by profit-making companies. Are they doing very good
:48:28. > :48:31.job. The people using them would probably have no idea they are
:48:31. > :48:40.making a profit. That comes to the heart of it. What matters in the
:48:40. > :48:43.end is what works. I think that we are in a situation where we have a
:48:43. > :48:48.pretty good education system in this country but Ofsted said that
:48:48. > :48:51.up to 40 % of teaching is not good enough. That means maybe a third of
:48:51. > :48:56.schools are underperforming. We need to look at every possible
:48:56. > :49:02.solution. Academies are one part of it. Potentially we may need to look
:49:02. > :49:05.at whether the profits sector can make -- play a role. I am sure that
:49:05. > :49:15.parents just what a good local school. Do you think we should be
:49:15. > :49:16.
:49:16. > :49:18.allowed schools to be run for a profit? You referred to the school
:49:19. > :49:23.in Suffolk where the governors have appointed a private company to run
:49:23. > :49:26.the school for them. That is an interesting model. Governors are
:49:26. > :49:30.bound by their obligation to the welfare of the child. They have
:49:30. > :49:34.appointed a company to run the school. That is quite different to
:49:34. > :49:37.having the board of directors of a company being the governors. There
:49:38. > :49:41.is an important distinction. I think there is some future in
:49:41. > :49:51.allowing governing bodies which themselves are charities tour.
:49:51. > :49:58.
:49:58. > :50:02.Private providers to run parts of the school. -- to appoint. Clearly
:50:02. > :50:06.academy status does not guarantee good result. Parents are interested
:50:06. > :50:10.in getting the best results. And opportunities for their children.
:50:10. > :50:13.You're right. There is an issue with Christchurch Academy. I was
:50:13. > :50:21.there last week and I met with the interim principle. He has a great
:50:21. > :50:25.plan to turn things. They are making sure that people -- children
:50:25. > :50:29.get the best chances in life. It will take a year to be visible. But
:50:29. > :50:33.the key thing is that what is in progress. You have head teachers
:50:33. > :50:38.taking real responsibility immediately without all of the
:50:38. > :50:41.county council level bureaucracy. On this very subject of failing
:50:41. > :50:47.academies, it is a horrible word to use about any school but it is not
:50:47. > :50:55.just the situation in Christchurch Academy. 16 schools in Kent failing
:50:55. > :50:59.to reach key benchmark. If a failing school can be turned into
:50:59. > :51:03.an academy, what do you do would be failing Academy? That is a very
:51:03. > :51:06.good question. On average, they have performed better than
:51:06. > :51:09.comparative schools. That does not mean to say that every academy has
:51:09. > :51:15.been a success. Some of them have taken over in really trying
:51:15. > :51:18.circumstances. Some of them have taken over in difficult
:51:18. > :51:23.circumstances. If there is a problem with an Academy, then we
:51:23. > :51:26.need to look at other options. One option is looking at chains of
:51:26. > :51:30.academies. The research I have done suggests they are even more
:51:30. > :51:33.effective at raising results. But if that does not work, that is
:51:33. > :51:37.where we do have to contemplate whether Iraq skills and resources
:51:37. > :51:43.in the private sector that we can put to work for the most
:51:43. > :51:48.disadvantaged children. Would you ever be happy with the schools
:51:48. > :51:51.being run for profit in the state sector? Absolutely not. This is
:51:51. > :51:54.rather a circular argument. What we are losing sight of is that the
:51:54. > :52:00.only way that the Conservative government now was giving any money
:52:00. > :52:04.at all for new schools as if they are free schools or academies, over
:52:04. > :52:07.which local authorities -- local bodies have no control. Every time
:52:07. > :52:11.one pops up and is established, that is less money coming to the
:52:11. > :52:16.local authority. What we need still is a democratically accountable
:52:16. > :52:20.local educational authority who can have the power to intervene to
:52:20. > :52:25.raise standards, to achieve what we have just talked about, the synergy
:52:25. > :52:31.between schools, so that they can learn from each other, who can put
:52:31. > :52:34.forward a fair admissions policy and manage this process. We are in
:52:34. > :52:39.the worst possible world now where there is such uncertainty about
:52:39. > :52:45.future school provision. We are now talking about future funding being
:52:45. > :52:49.at risk. All parents warned -- what is a good local school. That is
:52:49. > :52:59.being increasingly difficult to promised parents two years down the
:52:59. > :53:03.
:53:03. > :53:06.line. Could experimental technology help save Kent's nuclear industry?
:53:06. > :53:09.A report by government scientists due to be published later this year
:53:09. > :53:11.will set out nuclear options for the UK, including the building of
:53:11. > :53:15.smaller reactors powered in new ways. Shepway Council wants to
:53:15. > :53:18.develop a new reactor in Dungeness, but the government says NO. So does
:53:18. > :53:26.the South East have any sort of nuclear future? Joining me from our
:53:26. > :53:32.Westminster studio is energy expert Malcolm Grimston. What do you think
:53:32. > :53:37.should happen? The difficulty with the Dungeness site is that it is in
:53:37. > :53:42.a very important area of natural beauty, the shingles there are
:53:42. > :53:52.quite a rare habitat. They are designated at a European level.
:53:52. > :53:55.
:53:55. > :53:58.Actually since the de commissioning of the station on the site, if it
:53:58. > :54:03.is taken apart more rapidly, there may be space there to put the works
:54:03. > :54:07.for a new reactor in the course of the next 10 years or so. But it is
:54:07. > :54:11.a difficult argument. What I think is clear is if United Kingdom does
:54:12. > :54:18.aim to replace all of its current UK stations -- nuclear stations
:54:18. > :54:21.with nuclear power plants to make sure we are not to wind -- too
:54:21. > :54:28.dependent on imported gas, Dungeness would have to come into
:54:28. > :54:33.the picture. Kent is short of capacity of all sorts. And there is
:54:33. > :54:40.the supportive workforce locally. And the infrastructure in place.
:54:40. > :54:44.used a lot of energy in the south- east. Yes, and if you include
:54:44. > :54:47.London into the south-east, by a long way, the south-east and London
:54:47. > :54:54.has the biggest energy deficit in the United Kingdom. Back large
:54:54. > :54:58.amounts of electricity are imported from the North, the existing Cole
:54:58. > :55:02.stations in Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire, for example. And
:55:02. > :55:11.transporting electricity, you need wires, that is unsightly. You waste
:55:11. > :55:16.energy through that. Are they a genuine alternative technologies?
:55:16. > :55:23.You could dazzle us with a fast reactors and fusion. I do not have
:55:23. > :55:31.a degree in physics. Are there different techniques? In theory,
:55:31. > :55:34.yes. But at the moment, no. The report is really looking beyond the
:55:34. > :55:37.year 2030 and there are a number of quite exciting approach is to
:55:37. > :55:40.nuclear energy which could be exploited them. Nuclear energy is
:55:40. > :55:47.not like wind and water which we have been using for thousands of
:55:47. > :55:51.years. The problems with those is you do not get the energy necessary
:55:51. > :55:57.when you want it. They have been the search for a long time and very
:55:57. > :56:04.little has emerged by way of an answer. There are ways of getting
:56:04. > :56:07.energy from uranium which are quite different from the reactors but
:56:07. > :56:11.none of those is ready at the moment. I think to get us through
:56:11. > :56:16.the immediate future, which has a lot of nuclear power plants and
:56:16. > :56:26.Cole plants, come into the end of their lives in the next 10 to 15
:56:26. > :56:37.
:56:38. > :56:43.OK. Thank you. It is good to have you with us. You want to see an
:56:43. > :56:48.extension of renewables. They are so much more expensive in terms of
:56:48. > :56:55.how much it costs to produce the energy. 14 % of the population is
:56:55. > :57:00.in fuel poverty. Nuclear is the issue -- is the cheapest source of
:57:00. > :57:05.energy. Any energy policy, you do need security of supply. It has to
:57:05. > :57:09.be low carbon. And yes, it has to be affordable. But that does not
:57:09. > :57:13.mean to say that we cannot stop investing in renewable energy.
:57:13. > :57:17.Because the one thing that of course is so contentious around the
:57:17. > :57:27.production of nuclear energy is the disposal and we have just seen that
:57:27. > :57:36.
:57:36. > :57:44.has created quite a high a Test cap in Cumbria. It never made any sense
:57:44. > :57:49.will stop we have a nuclear energy industry in Kent. The work force
:57:49. > :57:57.should be put to work in a village macro. What is standing in the way
:57:57. > :58:07.is a man-made Beach. I say that the zero carbon energy production is
:58:07. > :58:16.
:58:16. > :58:22.more important to our environment A Kent butcher says he wants to
:58:22. > :58:29.sell horsemeat legitimately because his customers are curious to try it.
:58:29. > :58:34.The supplier has said to us, he does sell it. Dame Kelly Holmes
:58:35. > :58:42.treated this me -- this week that she is fed up of the government
:58:42. > :58:45.ignoring her calls for more P lessons. We need to make sure that
:58:45. > :58:55.we give young children the opportunity to try all scored --
:58:55. > :58:57.
:58:57. > :59:05.sports. Potholes in the south-east have reached Third World standards
:59:05. > :59:11.and that is damaging the economy, according to the RAC. And he says
:59:11. > :59:21.it will be his most unique gig so far. Playing the House of Commons
:59:21. > :59:23.
:59:23. > :59:30.next month for a charity supporting A very quick thought on horsemeat.
:59:30. > :59:36.I would not eat it but I am glad that he is labelling it. I do not