:12:53. > :13:03.of power - will being part of the coalition government hurt Lib Dem
:13:03. > :13:03.
:13:03. > :35:59.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1376 seconds
:35:59. > :36:03.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:36:03. > :36:06.Coming up later: As Brighton and Hove struggles to deal with its
:36:06. > :36:11.substance abuse problem, are officially sanctioned drug rooms for
:36:11. > :36:14.addicts the right solution? Joining me in the studio today is
:36:14. > :36:20.the Labour Party's Baroness Maggie Jones and Brighton and Hove's Green
:36:20. > :36:22.Council leader Jason Kitcat. First, patients have given the Brighton and
:36:22. > :36:27.Sussex University Hospital Trust poor marks for accident and
:36:27. > :36:30.emergency care. The survey by the Care Quality Commission rates the
:36:30. > :36:33.Royal Sussex and the Princess Royal as among the worst in the country.
:36:33. > :36:36.It comes weeks after the A&E unit at the Royal Sussex was plunged into
:36:36. > :36:41.crisis because of delays and overcrowding - a situation echoed in
:36:41. > :36:51.East Kent hospital A&E units shortly afterwards. So is this all about
:36:51. > :36:53.
:36:53. > :36:58.resources or mismanagement? Jason, your council is meeting to discuss
:36:58. > :37:02.this shortly. Or is there a specific problem? I think there is a
:37:02. > :37:10.combination of factors. The reforms are putting huge pressure on these
:37:10. > :37:13.trusts to make savings, but we are also seeing the reorganisation
:37:13. > :37:17.leaving some gaps in previously connected services. We are
:37:17. > :37:21.struggling to deal with that and we want to be as supportive as we can
:37:21. > :37:31.of the NHS, but we can't go one within a knee performing in this
:37:31. > :37:32.
:37:32. > :37:36.way. -- we can't go on with NAND performing in this way. People don't
:37:36. > :37:44.think they are being seen adequately at their doctors. That is part of
:37:44. > :37:53.the pressure the NHS is under. Maggie Jones, what do you think?
:37:53. > :37:57.think it is driven from the centre, which nobody wanted and which they
:37:57. > :38:01.promised they wouldn't do. I think David Cameron has broken his promise
:38:01. > :38:06.on help service reform. Obviously we have to address the local problems
:38:06. > :38:13.that have arisen. Social services need to step in to provide places
:38:13. > :38:19.for the elderly as well as providing more out of hours care for some of
:38:19. > :38:24.the people who turn up at A&E. Very often those people shouldn't really
:38:24. > :38:30.be there, they should be supported by other services rather than A&E,
:38:30. > :38:36.which should be a place of last resort. This is one of the places
:38:36. > :38:43.where the pressure is popping out. During a visit to Eastbourne this
:38:43. > :38:47.week, Liberal Democrat Treasury secretary Danny Alexander said he
:38:48. > :38:51.believes his party could win control of East Sussex in the May county
:38:51. > :38:56.council elections. But Willie 's party's national association with
:38:56. > :39:02.the Tories help or hinder its chances on a local level? And why is
:39:02. > :39:12.the Green party planning to target Lib Dem seats in the county? Lucinda
:39:12. > :39:16.
:39:16. > :39:20.This is the County Down as East Sussex. The Lib Dems have
:39:20. > :39:24.traditionally done well here, but that -- but could their popularity
:39:24. > :39:28.be weakening? This is the first time in decades that they are fighting
:39:28. > :39:32.county elections while in government, but how is their
:39:32. > :39:36.newfound national power affecting their local success? It is three
:39:36. > :39:39.years since the Liberal Democrats formed a coalition with the
:39:39. > :39:43.Conservatives. Since then, their majority at Eastbourne Borough
:39:43. > :39:48.Council has been significantly reduced, and last year they lost
:39:48. > :39:54.control of Lewes district Council after holding it for 20 years.
:39:54. > :40:04.Here, the Lib Dems currently have 13 seats. The Conservatives have 29,
:40:04. > :40:04.
:40:04. > :40:11.Labour have four and there are pre-independence. -- three
:40:11. > :40:19.independents. We know that they're standing has plummeted. Most
:40:19. > :40:23.appealing -- opinion polls show them as about 20%. Despite that,
:40:23. > :40:28.ambitions in East Sussex are high. Danny Alexander was in Eastbourne
:40:28. > :40:33.this week, saying the party could win back control of the county from
:40:33. > :40:36.the Conservatives, or at least leave them with no overall control. This
:40:36. > :40:43.is a Lib Dem led local authority which is transforming the local
:40:43. > :40:47.economy, unlike the wasteful Conservatives. They are spending
:40:47. > :40:51.money on the wrong things and as a result allowing local services to
:40:51. > :41:01.fall apart. But retiring council leader Peter Jones disagrees.
:41:01. > :41:07.totally disillusioned all. The Lib Dems have campaigned unsuccessfully
:41:07. > :41:11.to stop this incinerator being built. They recently called the 20
:41:11. > :41:17.mph speed limits in around 100 roads, but that didn't succeed
:41:17. > :41:20.either. Peter Jones accuses them of lacking coherent policy ideas. They
:41:20. > :41:27.are a totally ineffective opposition. I get more
:41:27. > :41:35.intellectually consistent opposition from the four Labour members then I
:41:35. > :41:38.do from the voting Lib Dem members. They define themselves by what they
:41:38. > :41:46.are against and not what they are for. I think people want to hear
:41:46. > :41:51.from politicians who can help. They don't want to hear that you are
:41:51. > :41:58.against this road or this incinerator. Are they going to
:41:58. > :42:01.improve the schools and provide better care for the healthcare and
:42:01. > :42:07.the elderly? It's all of those things that people really want to
:42:07. > :42:13.hear about. The Lib Dems just don't have a message on any of that.
:42:13. > :42:17.how could they take East Sussex back? Many people believe transport
:42:17. > :42:23.infrastructure is a weakness in the county, but there is criticism the
:42:23. > :42:26.Lib Dems don't have a clear transport Secretary -- strategy.
:42:26. > :42:34.need good transport to boost the economy and attract private
:42:34. > :42:38.investment. We have huge deprivation and poverty. From what we've seen of
:42:38. > :42:42.the Lib Dem policy, they are not putting that at the centre of their
:42:42. > :42:48.manifesto for the East Sussex county council elections, which is an
:42:48. > :42:52.absolute disappointment and shame. To add to the Lib Dems worries, the
:42:52. > :42:59.Green party is targeting Lewes, dealing -- fielding candidates in
:42:59. > :43:04.all of its seats. The party leader hopes that disillusioned voters will
:43:04. > :43:11.see them as a viable alternative. It's a place that has real community
:43:11. > :43:18.spirit and wants to operate as a strong local economy. It is the sort
:43:18. > :43:23.of place where Green is a natural fit. There is a strong awareness of
:43:23. > :43:28.issues and the need for a different kind of politics. As the Lib Dems
:43:28. > :43:34.tried to retake East Sussex, are they realistic? Or will fading
:43:34. > :43:38.national and local support see them lose seats, not gain them? Joining
:43:38. > :43:47.us from our Brighton Studios is a coalition transport Minister Norman
:43:47. > :43:52.Baker. You must have given as a lot of thought. Why have you been
:43:52. > :43:56.punished so much more than your coalition partners? Well, you are
:43:56. > :44:02.out of date. What I'm finding on the doorstep now is actually a lot of
:44:02. > :44:08.support for the Lib Dems. The Conservatives are the ones who were
:44:08. > :44:16.looking divided nationally, not ours. In East Sussex, it is a clear
:44:16. > :44:18.fight between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. It sounds like you
:44:18. > :44:27.share Danny Alexander's confidence that you could retake the county
:44:27. > :44:30.council. I think it is possible. I'm not saying it's likely. But you will
:44:30. > :44:35.either have Lib Dem councillors or Tory councillors. That is what has
:44:35. > :44:43.always happened in the East Sussex. The Lib Dem vote is quite strong,
:44:43. > :44:49.despite people talking about opinion polls. Two years ago, you mention we
:44:49. > :44:55.lost by a handful of votes. That is now back in our control. None of the
:44:55. > :45:02.Greens got a look in. I know only five councils held elections, but
:45:02. > :45:06.you lost your share of the vote from 24% to 15%. Even if the Tories
:45:06. > :45:12.suffered the same lack of support, because they are in government, you
:45:12. > :45:22.can't afford to lose the seats and they can. I did think that is true
:45:22. > :45:23.
:45:23. > :45:31.either. We are likely to see some Tory boats going to you. -- some
:45:31. > :45:36.Tory votes going to UKIP. That is very likely scenario across Sussex.
:45:36. > :45:41.I'd thought you lost 14% of your votes in Eastleigh despite the win.
:45:41. > :45:44.Anyway, the Green party, as we just heard, they are knocking on the door
:45:44. > :45:50.in Sussex. They have become the opposition. You must be worried
:45:50. > :45:54.about what they could do on your doorstep? I'm not worried. Actually,
:45:54. > :45:58.they are becoming quite unpopular in Brighton through the leadership of
:45:58. > :46:02.the council down there. Caroline Lucas may be well respected as the
:46:02. > :46:09.-- as an MP but the party is not respected. They are going
:46:09. > :46:16.backwards. They won no seats at a district level. I don't think they
:46:16. > :46:20.will make any progress. Let's talk about some of the specific
:46:20. > :46:25.criticisms of your party made not least by Peter Jones, the retiring
:46:25. > :46:29.leader of the council. He says you are an ineffective opposition and
:46:29. > :46:35.you don't come up with constructive policies. That is one of your
:46:35. > :46:42.problems locally in East Sussex. Well, Peter Jones says he wants to
:46:42. > :46:49.have positive policies but spends most of his time criticising the Lib
:46:49. > :46:53.Dems. We do have positive policies. We want the council to deal with
:46:53. > :46:57.roads properly. The Conservatives are wasting hundreds of thousands of
:46:57. > :47:03.pounds giving compensation to drivers as a consequence of their
:47:03. > :47:07.failure to help their roads improved. Let's talk about what the
:47:07. > :47:11.Conservatives are doing. They have built a library and a link road,
:47:11. > :47:16.things that your party opposed. Could it be they are doing a very
:47:16. > :47:25.good job considering there is a recession? They are certainly doing
:47:25. > :47:27.quite well on libraries, credit is given where it is due. But the
:47:27. > :47:32.Conservatives have deliberately spent the money they get
:47:32. > :47:36.disproportionately in Hastings. Elsewhere in the county, people have
:47:36. > :47:42.a right to feel aggrieved. This was the decision to move resources
:47:42. > :47:49.across. Nobody in the west of the county should vote conservative at
:47:49. > :47:55.all. We will see in the next few weeks whether they take your advice.
:47:55. > :48:02.Jason Kitcat was great dismissive of the Greens, partly because of your
:48:02. > :48:10.council, which is so unpopular. Well, no one actually knows what the
:48:10. > :48:14.Lib Dems stand for, so I think he is overambitious. Clearly we are not
:48:14. > :48:20.targeting the entirety of the country. But we are the only
:48:20. > :48:25.opposition party in Sussex. We have a very strong base in Lewis and I
:48:25. > :48:29.would expect us to make progress. You only won 5% of the vote in the
:48:29. > :48:33.last county council elections. don't know enough to give you a
:48:33. > :48:37.percentage for this time, but we have a strong position on the town
:48:37. > :48:43.council and would like to build on that. Clearly, this is uncharted
:48:43. > :48:46.territory as to how these elections will go. But the vote for the three
:48:46. > :48:55.main parties has been in constant decline over the past three years.
:48:55. > :48:58.That is a significant change in politics. I'm sorry, Jason, the
:48:58. > :49:03.difference is you now run Brighton Council. Your record,
:49:03. > :49:11.unfortunately, is not something you can be proud of. You have a
:49:11. > :49:20.reputation for being a degree -- chaotic, disorganised council.
:49:20. > :49:25.delivered under spends this year. Recycling, for example, your record
:49:25. > :49:29.is very poor. There are no collections -- no elections being
:49:29. > :49:32.held in Brighton and Hove, so let's look at the wider south-east. The
:49:32. > :49:35.problem is Labour should be capitalising on the back that these
:49:35. > :49:42.two parties are in power, and you're not. The Greens appear to be taking
:49:42. > :49:46.the seats you should be. Obviously, we aim to increase our share of the
:49:46. > :49:52.vote. It is difficult for us in the south, obviously. But we hope we
:49:52. > :49:56.will improve our share of the vote in the key marginal seats like
:49:56. > :50:02.Crawley, like Hastings, which we hope to win at the next election. So
:50:02. > :50:10.that's what we'll be looking for. you think you're number of
:50:10. > :50:15.councillors will go up? I think so. Now, until recently, Brighton and
:50:15. > :50:18.Hove was known as the drug death capital of the country. The city has
:50:18. > :50:23.already looked at innovative solutions to deal with its substance
:50:23. > :50:27.abuse problems. They include a trial prescribing heroin to addicts. A new
:50:27. > :50:30.report from an independent commission endorses a radical plan
:50:30. > :50:34.for officially sanctioned consumption rooms dashed places
:50:34. > :50:39.where addicts can go to inject without fear of prosecution. Parts
:50:39. > :50:46.of East Kent also have higher levels of drugtaking. Could these clinics
:50:46. > :50:53.be an answer? Joining as is Graham Cox, the former head of Sussex CID.
:50:53. > :50:59.You don't like this idea, do you? No, I'm very uncomfortable with it.
:50:59. > :51:04.There is an issue of cost, finding the rooms, the nurses to supervise
:51:04. > :51:06.people injecting themselves. I'd far rather see public money going on
:51:06. > :51:13.successful abstinence -based treatment programmes then conducting
:51:13. > :51:18.an experiment like this. I don't think the council and other public
:51:18. > :51:22.authorities should be colluding with drug use in this way. It breaches
:51:22. > :51:27.international treaties. The UN is firmly against it. There is a real
:51:27. > :51:33.risk of further drug addicts to Brighton and Hove if we are seen as
:51:33. > :51:36.having a soft, liberal approach. is interesting that you mention the
:51:36. > :51:42.UN because actually this is tried in a lot of other countries. In
:51:42. > :51:46.Vancouver, the amount of public drugtaking has gone down by 50%, and
:51:46. > :51:52.it does save lives, so surely anything that reduces the number of
:51:52. > :51:57.deaths is worth -- is worth spending money on? The international evidence
:51:57. > :52:01.is far from compelling, actually. Some countries normally cited by
:52:01. > :52:06.those cup -- those proposing liberalisation, such as Denmark and
:52:06. > :52:11.Portugal, have come out firmly against these sorts of ideas. In
:52:11. > :52:16.Sydney, for example, what seemed to happen is it just enables people to
:52:16. > :52:21.continue taking drugs. Only 11% of the people using these rooms
:52:21. > :52:25.actually accessed treatment as a result. What we seem to be doing is
:52:25. > :52:32.accepting people should just carry on taking heroin and crack cocaine
:52:32. > :52:36.with the collusion of the state. not sure the author of this report
:52:36. > :52:41.would call it collusion. Their argument is, if somebody is going to
:52:41. > :52:45.carry on taking these dangerous drugs, surely better they do it with
:52:45. > :52:48.trained medical staff on hand to help if they get into difficulty,
:52:48. > :52:53.rather than in some squalid basement or on the streets where they could
:52:53. > :53:03.cause lots of other problems and possibly die. We should not just
:53:03. > :53:08.
:53:08. > :53:15.enable them to carry on taking drops. That might drugs. -- carry on
:53:15. > :53:19.taking drugs. I'm disappointed were going down this route and I had the
:53:19. > :53:23.council will pull back when the time comes for a decision. Let's ask the
:53:23. > :53:30.leader of the council. Jason, you are ultimately going to give the
:53:30. > :53:34.go-ahead for this. What is your initial feeling? This is the report
:53:34. > :53:38.of an independent commission. These are ten independent experts who have
:53:38. > :53:42.reviewed huge amounts of evidence and come to a larger numbers back a
:53:42. > :53:46.large number of recommendations. This is one of them. I strongly
:53:46. > :53:52.disagree with Graham. The evidence suggests the way to reduce harm is
:53:52. > :53:55.to try these rooms in a wider context, which is improving access
:53:55. > :54:00.to treatment as part of those rooms. It has clearly been proven to
:54:00. > :54:07.not only reduce harm but also save money. So I think these are worthy
:54:07. > :54:11.of consideration. They have the backing of conservative and Tory MPs
:54:11. > :54:18.in the city. I don't think this is a party political issue, but it is a
:54:18. > :54:24.sensitive one. The Health Secretary said the government won't support
:54:24. > :54:31.the grin -- the clinics because they contravene the law. Maggie, what
:54:31. > :54:37.would you do? I think we need to have a grown-up debate about this. I
:54:37. > :54:40.think anything that takes drugs off the Street, off the exploitation of
:54:40. > :54:45.the drug pushers and puts it into a clinical setting where people can
:54:45. > :54:49.have proper support and help, it's not just going to be somewhere where
:54:49. > :54:53.they can take their drugs in their back on the street again. It has to
:54:53. > :54:57.be part of a programme to help them get over their addiction. It has to
:54:58. > :55:02.be seen as an illness. We need to stop having hysterical headlines and
:55:02. > :55:12.start having a proper debate. I would like to see the detail, but it
:55:12. > :55:12.
:55:12. > :55:18.is certainly worthy of debate. be clear, prohibition hasn't worked.
:55:18. > :55:24.I suppose you could argue that it has worked. Drug deaths are falling.
:55:24. > :55:28.So would you like to stick with what we're doing? I'm certainly in favour
:55:28. > :55:32.of getting as many addicts into treatment as possible. But to say
:55:32. > :55:38.that the current situation is not working dashed actually, drug use
:55:38. > :55:43.and drug deaths are both currently going down. It is clearly illegal to
:55:44. > :55:51.do this. It would require a change in the law in my opinion. I don't
:55:51. > :56:01.want to see state sponsored opium dens in our city. Thank you for
:56:01. > :56:02.
:56:02. > :56:07.joining us. Now, a time for a round-up of the week's events.
:56:07. > :56:15.Medway Council is calling on bookmakers to sign a code of conduct
:56:15. > :56:18.to tackle the problem gamblers. People do realise they have a
:56:18. > :56:23.problem and don't want to be allowed into betting shops for their own
:56:23. > :56:32.good. We could look at banning orders. Caroline Lucas wants urgent
:56:32. > :56:36.action dashed -- to stop homophobic chanting at football supporters.
:56:36. > :56:40.Another MP has challenged the Home Secretary to respond to criticism to
:56:40. > :56:44.the way a police commissioner is recruiting has staff. But to Reza
:56:44. > :56:54.mate told MPs it was for the voters to decide if PCTs were spending
:56:54. > :56:59.
:56:59. > :57:09.their budgets wisely. The travellers are so close to this property. It is
:57:09. > :57:10.
:57:10. > :57:18.12 metres. We discussed the problems facing and Barnes in Kent last week.
:57:18. > :57:23.Jason, do you have any sympathy for her? People are growing up online
:57:23. > :57:26.now. If we're going to forensically analysed everything done in their
:57:26. > :57:32.youth growing up the moment they stick their heads above the parapet
:57:32. > :57:35.to get involved in youth politics, that is sad. Is it it also naive not
:57:36. > :57:40.to check somebody's background? You didn't have to do a lot of digging
:57:40. > :57:50.to find out what she had said. is a real issued about the way the
:57:50. > :57:52.
:57:52. > :57:54.PCC's are being monitored. I do think the government has set up an
:57:54. > :58:02.ill thought out policy. But we do need to get young people in
:58:02. > :58:05.politics. You can't I them down completely. They have to have some
:58:05. > :58:11.freedom to express them for -- themselves, although I do think she
:58:11. > :58:15.went overboard. Do you agree with to Reza may? I don't think the Home
:58:15. > :58:23.Secretary should should have got involved, but there needs to be
:58:23. > :58:30.control over how much is spent. were ill-advised to change the
:58:30. > :58:38.PCC's. In the case of youth engagement in politics, we need to