:01:44. > :01:54.And in the South East. Government stepped in to save struggling pubs
:01:54. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :37:36.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2141 seconds
:37:36. > :37:41.who big breweries and driving them fracking company is about to start
:37:41. > :37:47.exploratory drilling, will politicians hold their nerve against
:37:47. > :37:57.competition? I will ask the energy minister. Joining me to discuss this
:37:57. > :37:57.
:37:58. > :38:05.on my guests. -- are my guests. An end to winter fuel payments to
:38:05. > :38:08.pensioners would have a large impact in the South East. Figures show that
:38:08. > :38:15.we have the highest number of wealthy pensioners in the country.
:38:15. > :38:20.The Labour party has committed itself to removing some from those
:38:20. > :38:26.who pay top rate income tax. How would those households cope with the
:38:26. > :38:34.change? I am sure that you yourself agree with that policy. Did they
:38:34. > :38:40.have it to good before? I think in this particular issue, you were
:38:40. > :38:46.talking about people who earn �42,000 and up words, the fuel
:38:46. > :38:51.pension support the was to deal with fuel poverty, those pensioners
:38:51. > :38:56.making the choice between heating and eating. People who are in that
:38:56. > :39:02.amount do not have that dilemma. In Hastings, I do not think it will
:39:02. > :39:08.have a large impact. But you do not have to go far to find those who
:39:08. > :39:13.will have problems with it. Now, but this is an area which I would
:39:13. > :39:20.support. Why shouldn't wealthy pensioners remaking a contribution
:39:20. > :39:27.in a time of recession? The myth is that it's only wealthy pensioners
:39:27. > :39:34.affected. There will be a lot who are penalised by it. One in five
:39:34. > :39:39.pensioners in the South East. Not everyone who pays the top rate of
:39:39. > :39:44.income tax is rolling around wealthy. You could also be living in
:39:44. > :39:53.a mansion, but if you do not have much income, you will still get
:39:53. > :40:00.winter fuel allowance. There is a lack of credibility in this policy.
:40:00. > :40:05.Pubs are closing at a rate of four week. Big breweries are said to be
:40:05. > :40:10.making it impossible for pub landlords to make a decent wage.
:40:10. > :40:14.Nearly all pubs are tied into large contracts with big breweries. The
:40:14. > :40:23.Government is consulting on the relationship between pubs and
:40:23. > :40:29.brewery owners, but do they need to step in and take action?
:40:29. > :40:36.The great British pub. Its industry is worth �3 billion a year to the
:40:36. > :40:42.South East economy. It makes our region more dependent than any other
:40:42. > :40:46.in its success. We have one of the highest concentrations of pubs in
:40:46. > :40:52.the country, but for close every week. It is a problem made worse,
:40:52. > :40:56.say campaigners, because they are owned by a tenant licensees. They
:40:56. > :41:04.say that there are inflated rates and drink prices, and without
:41:04. > :41:10.regulation, they have them over a barrel. It is simply unfair. They
:41:10. > :41:15.have had it the way for too long. That is one of the main reasons we
:41:15. > :41:20.are losing so many pubs. It is supposed to mean that a tenant pays
:41:20. > :41:25.a lower rent in exchange for buying beer from the company for a slightly
:41:25. > :41:30.higher than normal price. But this publican says it does not always
:41:30. > :41:37.work like that point He and his partner on this pub, but they used
:41:37. > :41:43.to be licensees of two tied pubs in Brighton. Then the rent trebled in
:41:43. > :41:49.11 years to �79,000. At the worst points, between the two pubs we
:41:50. > :41:56.returning over 1 million each quarter and losing a huge amount --
:41:56. > :42:04.huge amount of money on that point why was that? Because of the high
:42:04. > :42:08.rents. That in addition to the tied beer prices. The beer selection was
:42:08. > :42:17.also the same as everybody else had, so we were being undercut. The
:42:17. > :42:22.pub across the road had a rental of �30,000 and was completely free.
:42:22. > :42:29.Apparently it is too risky for tied tenants to speak out. In a house
:42:29. > :42:34.like this you can buy any beer you want from any supplier, in a tied
:42:34. > :42:40.house licensees have two by the drinks through the pub company.
:42:40. > :42:46.Licensees say that the companies charge sometimes up to twice the
:42:46. > :42:49.market rate for the beer, landlords say that is exploitative. Pub
:42:49. > :42:54.companies say they have a voluntary code of practice that they have
:42:54. > :42:57.adopted in the last three years and that things are improving. But
:42:57. > :43:06.campaigners say it is not happening fast enough. We are trying to save
:43:06. > :43:11.the great British pub quicker -- public commission might this week
:43:11. > :43:15.they took their fight to Westminster. Government is proposing
:43:15. > :43:21.a new adjudicator and legal framework. But campaigners want
:43:21. > :43:27.tenants to have the option of printing at market rate without
:43:27. > :43:34.being tied into buying drinks from the owners. There is market
:43:34. > :43:40.dominance. In many cases, there has been bullying of the licensees. We
:43:40. > :43:45.know that they are indebted, we know that the money extracted from the
:43:45. > :43:50.pub schools to pay their creditors. It is a disaster for the UK economy
:43:50. > :43:54.as well as for licensees and local pubs. The question is, will the new
:43:54. > :44:04.statutory code includes a measure that. The overcharging? The only one
:44:04. > :44:05.
:44:05. > :44:10.that well as the market rent only option. Some critics fear that the
:44:10. > :44:14.power and wealth of companies is enough to lobby politicians. At
:44:14. > :44:22.least two companies have decided they want to sue the Government over
:44:22. > :44:26.the proposals. There are very good arguments for having lobbying reform
:44:26. > :44:32.more generally for transparency. I have met with pub companies just
:44:32. > :44:35.like I have met with licensees. But they should not be any undue
:44:35. > :44:38.influence taken place. I can at least give assurance that I will
:44:38. > :44:42.listen to all of the evidence when it comes to deciding on the next
:44:42. > :44:49.steps that we take. Well the Government had to force the issue or
:44:49. > :44:55.the pub companies change their village and licensees? If
:44:55. > :45:05.regulations are introduced, will pub companies comply?
:45:05. > :45:07.
:45:07. > :45:13.Lucinda Adams reporting will stop -- reporting. Never have another guest.
:45:13. > :45:18.From outside the industry or you can see is that it seems unfair.
:45:18. > :45:26.tied model system is a great system to run a business at a small amount
:45:26. > :45:31.of capital. If you are someone who owns a free house you need �250,000
:45:31. > :45:35.upwards to run your own pub. You can run your own pub tied to a pub
:45:35. > :45:41.company or brewery for as little as �30,000. That is why it is a great
:45:41. > :45:46.system. I do not think the tide landlords would agree when 60% of
:45:46. > :45:53.them according to figures out this week earn less than the minimum
:45:53. > :45:56.wage, �10,000. We have asked for the details. The big companies I
:45:56. > :46:00.represent do not recognise those figures and until we see the detail,
:46:00. > :46:04.we are talking about a small business, you cannot compare with
:46:04. > :46:13.the gross salary. At the end of the day, the tied system allows
:46:13. > :46:21.breweries in this country to exist. Some are owned by larger breweries.
:46:21. > :46:24.It is essential that they have a way of selling beer beer. But those
:46:24. > :46:34.owned by pub companies, I do not understand the issue over a choice.
:46:34. > :46:42.They have more choice and those pub companies... They do not!But they
:46:42. > :46:48.cannot... They are tied into these contracts plus the rents are going
:46:48. > :46:52.up. No one apart from using is to think this is a good idea. I don't
:46:52. > :46:58.think that's right. The Government has had to admit that the
:46:58. > :47:03.consultation is wrong. They said over 400 complaints when they were
:47:03. > :47:08.400 enquiries. This is a very well organised campaign. And as far as we
:47:08. > :47:11.are concerned, the vast majority actually benefit from the tied
:47:11. > :47:16.system. You seem to argue that nothing needs to change. What needs
:47:16. > :47:22.to happen then? We have self-regulation, we are in version
:47:22. > :47:30.six of the cord. There are many things, like having a transparent
:47:30. > :47:36.and fear system. -- the code. There are some things in the consultation
:47:36. > :47:41.that we can do. The self evaluation system is evolving. You can look at
:47:42. > :47:45.a low-cost arbitration scheme, you can complain if your rent is too
:47:45. > :47:50.high and anything else that is in the statutory code. It is legally
:47:50. > :48:00.binding on the companies will stop but there is a danger that you would
:48:00. > :48:02.
:48:02. > :48:10.get rid of our tied system. -- the companies. There is disagreement.
:48:10. > :48:14.There are many high street shops closing. There is no one between an
:48:14. > :48:22.untyped licensee and the bank. If you think that banks will step in
:48:22. > :48:29.and buy the investment, that is a large revenue, 206 to �5 million to
:48:29. > :48:35.provide new kitchens etc, I do not think so. Do you think that
:48:35. > :48:42.statutory regulation would decline pubs? That is because of removing
:48:42. > :48:50.the tie. Pub companies are really interested, it is not in the
:48:50. > :48:58.interest for pubs to close. It costs them thousands of pounds. We have
:48:58. > :49:03.had vast economic problems in this country. We have had a 42% increase
:49:03. > :49:07.in beer taxation, which luckily, we got a small decrease in from the
:49:07. > :49:14.Chancellor. We have to bring our guests in.
:49:14. > :49:18.Does it matter if pubs shut? We are in a recession, changing cultural
:49:18. > :49:28.habit is, should we be trying to keep them open at all costs? Amateur
:49:28. > :49:29.
:49:29. > :49:33.about at all costs is, but I welcome the regulation. -- I am not sure. We
:49:33. > :49:39.need an adjudicator who can step in. Public and is that I know
:49:39. > :49:44.continually complain that the cost of the alcohol is too high that they
:49:44. > :49:50.have to buy. They cannot bring guest beers as they would like to do. And
:49:50. > :49:54.the cost of rent has gone up. A lot of businesses are in trouble. We do
:49:54. > :50:00.one small businesses to survive, we know that they are part of the
:50:00. > :50:09.community. If statutory late regulation does come in, it might
:50:09. > :50:13.not work. -- statutory regulation. Something clearly has two change. We
:50:13. > :50:18.cannot carry on as we are right now with pubs closing at an alarming
:50:18. > :50:24.rate. It does seem bizarre that the entire arrangement can disadvantage.
:50:24. > :50:29.You would not go into a supermarket and except -- and expect to only see
:50:29. > :50:32.one brand. You should not only see one type of beer in a pub. We want
:50:32. > :50:39.more freedom in our public houses, and I think that will see less pubs
:50:39. > :50:45.closing. The fracking company that is
:50:45. > :50:52.scheduled to start the exporting mission planned to go down 3,000
:50:52. > :51:02.feet to take samples of underground rock in order to test for shill gas.
:51:02. > :51:08.-- shale gas. There is a proposal that local communities should be
:51:08. > :51:13.compensated. How firm is the Government's backing for fracking.
:51:13. > :51:23.You were quoted last week in saying that you wanted to inject more pace
:51:23. > :51:23.
:51:23. > :51:26.into shale gas. We want to see what the potential is. It has reduced the
:51:26. > :51:31.cost of energy in the United States quite dramatically, helping
:51:31. > :51:35.consumers and industry. If it turns out there is a lot of shale gas
:51:35. > :51:40.underneath us in the UK, and if it can be extracted economically and
:51:40. > :51:44.technically, then I think it would be irresponsible not to go down and
:51:44. > :51:49.have a look. I am sure there were two enquiries, one was a select
:51:49. > :51:55.committee, one was an organisation, they concluded that we are unlikely
:51:55. > :52:00.to have cheaper fuel costs in this country because that gas is we find
:52:00. > :52:05.it will be exported for higher costs abroad. We do not know about that
:52:05. > :52:11.yet. First of all we need to know how much is down the -- down there.
:52:11. > :52:18.We are a long way off looking at the potential prices. It only
:52:18. > :52:21.indications are that there is quite a lot of it. -- early indications. I
:52:21. > :52:27.will be publishing a report this month. There will be an official
:52:27. > :52:37.estimate in that. That does not mean that you are able to recover that
:52:37. > :52:41.gas. Geography is different here than the United States. There are
:52:41. > :52:44.lots of potential sites here in the South East, including your
:52:44. > :52:50.constituency. I am sure you are aware how much people are concerned
:52:50. > :52:54.about the safety issues involved in exploration and extraction. How much
:52:54. > :53:00.does that concern you? They do concern us and that is why we have a
:53:00. > :53:04.robust regulatory system in place. There are licenses that you have to
:53:04. > :53:12.have, then you have to ensure that you have notified the health and
:53:12. > :53:18.safety executive, you have to have a permit from the environment agency,
:53:18. > :53:23.and the water and methane emissions have to be fully controlled, and
:53:23. > :53:33.finally, you have to have consent from my department. There is a whole
:53:33. > :53:38.system of permissions and permits. Should local communities be given a
:53:38. > :53:42.say in where the drill? They are, because each company needs planning
:53:42. > :53:47.permission. Learning permission needs to come from each local
:53:47. > :53:54.authority. That is the local authority, but will you gave
:53:54. > :53:57.go-ahead for the latest exploration, ETA but to present -- 82% were
:53:57. > :54:01.against the exploration. It sounds as though you are forcing it on
:54:01. > :54:08.people. Now, they have planning permission from the local authority
:54:08. > :54:12.there. We put the license out there and then it is up to the companies
:54:12. > :54:15.to get planning permission and other permissions that are necessary. We
:54:15. > :54:22.recognise that there is public concern about this. There has been
:54:22. > :54:27.hydraulic fracking in this country prolonged time. It is well used and
:54:27. > :54:33.recovering oil and gas. -- for a long time. We need to work with the
:54:33. > :54:38.industry to ensure that when any production takes place there is a
:54:38. > :54:42.benefit for the local community. must be concerned about the
:54:42. > :54:47.political risk you are taking. It is interesting that you changed your
:54:48. > :54:53.policy on wind farms lately to allow people the power to veto them that
:54:53. > :55:00.not with shale gas exploration. are not directly the same. We say
:55:00. > :55:03.that wind farms can still go ahead but must be appropriately sited. And
:55:03. > :55:08.they must consult the local community properly. If they go
:55:08. > :55:16.ahead, the local community has two benefit. That will be the same with
:55:16. > :55:19.shale gas. We're looking at packages community benefits. We have to give
:55:19. > :55:29.them discounts off their bells or provide the community with some kind
:55:29. > :55:32.
:55:32. > :55:37.of benefit. -- of the bills. I do not think that your seat is
:55:37. > :55:42.quite as safe as Michael Fallon's you concerned about losing
:55:42. > :55:47.Conservative voters here in the South East? We need to bring people
:55:48. > :55:53.with us on this. There is very little evidence that fracking has
:55:53. > :55:59.polluted the environment. Think that the potential for shale gas is huge
:55:59. > :56:03.in this country. At the moment, only 60% of the gas that we use is
:56:03. > :56:08.produced by ourselves. The rest is imported. This would enhance our
:56:08. > :56:12.energy security. What we are seeing with shale gas in America is that
:56:12. > :56:17.prices can be driven down. Whether that applies to the UK is another
:56:17. > :56:25.point. It is not definite. How do you persuade conservative voters who
:56:25. > :56:31.are anti-best, -- who are against this that this is good and they
:56:31. > :56:39.should go with its. We have been fracking for shale gas in this
:56:39. > :56:43.country for years. The track record is pretty good. We often find that
:56:43. > :56:48.those who are the sufferers against shale gas are also the same way
:56:48. > :56:56.about nuclear, oil and coal. Wind farms will not generate all the
:56:56. > :57:02.energy that we need in this country. We need to diversify. Some areas
:57:02. > :57:10.have called themselves and of rack is on. Will you do the same? We have
:57:10. > :57:14.a cross-party unhappiness about the idea of fracking. We are concerned.
:57:14. > :57:20.I think the Government has a big problem, they are not reassuring
:57:20. > :57:25.people. There is a reassurance on the impact geologically or the
:57:26. > :57:31.impact of chemicals leaking into water causeways. Charles Hendry, a
:57:31. > :57:38.previous Government environmental Minister, led a review that said
:57:38. > :57:42.that as a result of the prices being hired abroad it would make no
:57:42. > :57:47.difference to the price of shale gas here. Where has the greenest
:57:47. > :57:53.Government in history gone? Where is the support for renewables? That is
:57:53. > :57:59.my concern. There is no report on wind turbines. It is quite right
:57:59. > :58:09.that you ask Michael Fallon about the encouragement of the Government
:58:09. > :58:16.
:58:16. > :58:20.to speak to locals about wind farms. We will now have a round-up.
:58:20. > :58:24.Local campaigners in holes have battled the Government and one.
:58:24. > :58:29.There was plans for a new free school but protest was held the
:58:29. > :58:33.plans at bay. Some changes need to be made at the
:58:34. > :58:38.Royal Sussex in Brighton, according to a report the hospital is failing
:58:38. > :58:42.in many areas. The hospital said they are working hard to make
:58:42. > :58:48.improvements. Designer Wayne Hemingway is working
:58:48. > :58:53.with this council to re-grade and abandoned theme park. He thinks he
:58:53. > :58:59.has what it takes to make it a success. Without that bedrock it
:58:59. > :59:08.would be difficult to deliver a financial success in this place.
:59:08. > :59:14.Feast your eyes on her and they. In a Guardian tourism advert this area
:59:14. > :59:21.got no mention and that has ruffled local feathers. The Guardian said it
:59:21. > :59:25.was less likely to catch the attention of the readers.
:59:25. > :59:35.The hardened bay. Let us go back to the free school in Brighton. --
:59:35. > :59:37.
:59:37. > :59:41.Heron Bay. The... The local council voted let alone residents. With any
:59:41. > :59:46.sort of educational establishment we have to bring the community with us.
:59:46. > :59:56.It comes down to the popularity of the schools. In my constituency we
:59:56. > :59:56.
:59:56. > :59:59.had the most described school in the whole county. -- the most overs per
:59:59. > :00:06.described. You can satisfy the traditional needs of the area with
:00:06. > :00:12.this plan. We need extra school places? Yes, but let us manage it.