:01:13. > :01:23.passengers be left waiting for the bus as councils look for ways to cut
:01:23. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :33:21.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1917 seconds
:33:21. > :33:24.spending. We will be asking the Politics in the South East.
:33:24. > :33:29.Coming up later, councils argue some essential services will have to go
:33:29. > :33:33.if they're to cope with the 10% budget cut being imposed on them.
:33:33. > :33:37.But why are they hoarding millions in their reserves?
:33:37. > :33:40.Joining me in the studio today to discuss this and other topics is the
:33:40. > :33:43.Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes - who also happens to be the Transport
:33:43. > :33:47.Minister - Norman Baker. And the Labour Candidate for Hastings and
:33:47. > :33:50.Rye, Sarah Owen. Welcome to the programme. This week, Sussex Police
:33:50. > :33:55.have announced they're going to close 30 police buildings in a bid
:33:55. > :33:58.to save �50 million over the next two years. Instead, officers will
:33:58. > :34:03.work out of council-owned buildings in the community such as libraries
:34:03. > :34:13.and town halls. But is this how the public wants to access their local
:34:13. > :34:28.
:34:28. > :34:34.police force? The idea that we can get them in
:34:34. > :34:42.better situation seems better. I dashed so providing there is a
:34:42. > :34:51.proper contact point, I think it is a good idea. Got to make best use of
:34:51. > :34:55.resources, Cerro, it's good move? -- Sarah. I know they are tough
:34:55. > :34:59.economic times but I would question whether the police and crime
:34:59. > :35:04.commission is a good use of money. We are selling off assets that will
:35:04. > :35:09.affect front-line policing. It is less about what I think London what
:35:09. > :35:13.we get from the police. People in Hastings really value having a
:35:13. > :35:19.police station and we are lucky that none of the stations in Hastings all
:35:19. > :35:22.rights are for the chop. But people will be annoyed. While people may
:35:22. > :35:25.not use police station themselves often, but the people who use of
:35:25. > :35:33.people on bail who have to go to report to them. If they have moved
:35:33. > :35:40.that into a local library, people may that someone they would want in
:35:40. > :35:44.a local library is turning up there. If they are on bail, they have not
:35:44. > :35:47.committed an offence, and they are innocent until proven guilty.
:35:47. > :35:53.you understand that people who you wouldn't normally expect to have a
:35:53. > :35:57.local library are turning on police business it's not a normal
:35:57. > :36:01.situation. I think it is a bizarre angle for you to come in at. If
:36:01. > :36:06.people go into a public building, they go into a public building. The
:36:07. > :36:13.problem is the total reduction in that it is not a public that it is
:36:13. > :36:16.not a reduction in front-line policing, it is about taking people
:36:16. > :36:20.out of buildings which are responsive to maintain and that will
:36:20. > :36:23.release funds for front-line policing. We will see how that pans
:36:23. > :36:27.out. The Police Commissioner will be answerable.
:36:27. > :36:30.Bus services have been heavily hit over the last three years, with West
:36:30. > :36:32.Sussex seeing one of the biggest cuts anywhere in the country. With
:36:32. > :36:35.budgets further under pressure, campaigners are concerned councils
:36:35. > :36:45.will cut subsidies further. So how will the South East ensure vital
:36:45. > :36:46.
:36:46. > :36:53.services remain accessible for the most vulnerable people?
:36:53. > :36:57.We think of the heyday of buses as part of a bygone era. But it isn't.
:36:57. > :37:01.Bus journeys in the South East have increased by more than one fifth in
:37:01. > :37:06.the last decade. It is now more popular than it has been since the
:37:06. > :37:10.1980s. Two thirds of journeys taken by public transport are by bus. But
:37:10. > :37:14.cuts of up to one third to council budgets over the last three years
:37:14. > :37:21.mean that some services have already been lost. With a further 10%
:37:21. > :37:26.squeeze on council funding announced this month, it is predicted that the
:37:26. > :37:29.support to buses could be cut completely. We pay for buses by
:37:29. > :37:33.buying tickets but evening and weekend services and some rural
:37:33. > :37:38.roots are not profitable and are kept running simply because local
:37:38. > :37:42.councils pay a subsidy to keep them going. 24 million bus journeys are
:37:42. > :37:48.taken in West Sussex every year. 8 million of them in West dashing
:37:48. > :37:55.Crawley. Many of them are subsidised but only half as many as three years
:37:55. > :38:03.ago. The council has suffered some of the worst service cutbacks. --
:38:03. > :38:10.the county has suffered. Some warning that the bus services could
:38:10. > :38:13.be tipped over the edge. Caroline Lucas helps write the report.
:38:13. > :38:18.cuts translate into bus services, then the people who will lose out
:38:18. > :38:21.will be the vulnerable, people in rural areas, women, people who can't
:38:21. > :38:25.afford to use the car. But these people depend on these local
:38:25. > :38:30.services to get to their jobs, to get your childcare and make their
:38:30. > :38:36.communities work. At Crawley bus station, the demand for services was
:38:36. > :38:41.clear and talk of cuts on popular. More cuts? What you think about
:38:41. > :38:45.that? No, they don't need more cuts to the buses. There are not a lot of
:38:45. > :38:51.jobs, people are struggling to survive. I don't think there's any
:38:51. > :38:55.reason for the government to be cutting buses. It would be awful. It
:38:55. > :39:05.would be dashed in that case it would be mediating taxis which would
:39:05. > :39:07.
:39:07. > :39:14.be a lot more. -- that would be me getting taxis. We need more buses in
:39:14. > :39:19.our area. To cut the emissions as well. Jim Piercey runs meetings to
:39:19. > :39:25.support older people. He said there needs to be every consideration
:39:25. > :39:29.before making further cuts. I would ask them to think carefully about
:39:29. > :39:34.how many people they are going to affect. For all people, buses are
:39:34. > :39:40.essential. Some of the outlying villages, if the buses were there,
:39:40. > :39:46.that would be it. The villages would be cut off completely. Jim's group
:39:46. > :39:50.has had to relocate after a bus route was scrapped. At one time, we
:39:50. > :39:56.have 40 people. We are down to 20 because they couldn't get on the bus
:39:56. > :40:05.or the buses didn't run at the right time. That is the sort of thing. I
:40:05. > :40:12.think it would make Crawley more of a ghost town. A fuel duty rebate
:40:12. > :40:19.paid directly to bus companies could in theory go to councils. For the
:40:19. > :40:22.moment, that money is ring fenced. But with more and more money on --
:40:22. > :40:30.more and more pressure on services, people are aware that this money
:40:30. > :40:34.could go. If certainty could be generated about the funding and the
:40:34. > :40:38.funding could be used in a way that sustains the bus services that the
:40:38. > :40:44.operator provides, there is not a huge issue. The issue comes and if
:40:44. > :40:48.there is not that there is a lot of uncertainty or if it is not
:40:48. > :40:55.sustained in the long term. It then becomes a very difficult to sustain
:40:55. > :41:01.bus services if significant amounts of money lost to the bus network
:41:01. > :41:08.because the money goes into other things. With buses experiencing a
:41:08. > :41:11.public -- a popular revival, can national and local politicians
:41:11. > :41:17.ensure unprofitable services have a future? Or some bus routes become a
:41:17. > :41:27.thing of the past? Well, Norman Baker is the minister
:41:27. > :41:27.
:41:27. > :41:33.responsible for bus services. You also a bus fan? I will be using a
:41:33. > :41:37.bus back to Lewis. So are you worried? No, because the bus
:41:37. > :41:42.patronage in the South East is buoyant. We are not seeing dramatic
:41:42. > :41:46.reductions that have been talked about. This week, I made sure, when
:41:46. > :41:49.it came to the Chancellor's statement, there are no cuts to
:41:49. > :41:54.buses from the Department for Transport. We are increasing the
:41:54. > :41:59.money for buses through a new initiative called the better bus
:41:59. > :42:04.area. Four all five services are commercially run, they require no
:42:04. > :42:08.subsidies. They have been carrying on as normal. The 20% which are
:42:08. > :42:16.council supported, we are seeing wide variation between different
:42:16. > :42:25.councils. We have heard about West Sussex cutting routes 65 routes.
:42:25. > :42:28.Indeed, but if Sussex they have been rather more. We have 15 services
:42:28. > :42:35.lost in Kent. So although you think everything is going swimmingly,
:42:35. > :42:38.Labour have written, alongside 30 different organisations, including
:42:38. > :42:44.the Women's Institute and the National union of students, raising
:42:44. > :42:48.these concerns with the Chancellor because these services are so
:42:48. > :42:54.vital. In terms of people using them, rural areas and East Sussex
:42:54. > :42:57.rely on these and they are very vulnerable communities as well.
:42:57. > :43:02.coalition came in and took the ring fencing away, the response ability
:43:02. > :43:07.that local councils had to do to put money in local bus services. They
:43:07. > :43:14.can output that money in other places and in tough times, they may
:43:14. > :43:17.well choose to do so. The amount for buses is ring fenced and has not
:43:17. > :43:22.been decreased. What councils do with their resources is a matter for
:43:22. > :43:27.them. But the picture is varied across the country. The position in
:43:27. > :43:32.East Sussex is better than across the country in many areas. Some
:43:32. > :43:40.councils have taken an axe to it. Sussex they they have no other
:43:40. > :43:47.choice. Of course they have choice. These cuts are impacting on
:43:47. > :43:52.vulnerable communities. I wouldn't be making the cuts that West Sussex
:43:52. > :43:56.is making. You are the minister responsible. I am not responsible. I
:43:56. > :44:01.give at the money to commercial bus companies, that has not been cut.
:44:01. > :44:05.What local councils do with their money is not what I'm responsible
:44:05. > :44:11.for. I would be doing in West Sussex. So can you stand up for the
:44:11. > :44:14.buses? I do stand up with the buses and I'd -- I do stand-up for the
:44:15. > :44:21.buses and I have regular contact with the Chancellor and make it well
:44:21. > :44:24.known how important they are. There is funding which Eric pickles
:44:24. > :44:28.believes is appropriate for local councils but they have the
:44:28. > :44:32.feasibility to spend it as they wish. Some of them spend it wisely,
:44:32. > :44:37.some of them don't. Some of them prioritise buses, some prioritise
:44:38. > :44:44.other areas. So, Sarah, if you were in Norman's shoes, what would you
:44:44. > :44:47.do? There are other ways of looking at how we fund and how communities
:44:47. > :44:52.benefit from bus services. Where we have seen threats to bus services,
:44:53. > :44:59.we should consult the public. In Hackney, we are looking at community
:44:59. > :45:02.mutuals to run their transport links or perhaps merging services with
:45:02. > :45:09.schools and social services. There are other ways of doing it rather
:45:09. > :45:13.than just cutting vital services. very much agree with that. There is
:45:13. > :45:17.a way of looking at children's services and community services
:45:17. > :45:20.running together. Some of the councils across the country are
:45:20. > :45:30.using those innovative arrangements, other that others are taking the
:45:30. > :45:33.
:45:33. > :45:36.axe. We are talking about an overall 10% Let's move on from buses
:45:36. > :45:38.specifically to everything else that local authorities provide, because
:45:38. > :45:41.local culture, leisure centres and roads all face an uncertain future
:45:41. > :45:44.according to our councils who have learned in this week's Spending
:45:44. > :45:47.Round that they will have to find another 10% cut to their budgets.
:45:47. > :45:49.Cut. What are the options? Further efficiency savings, says the
:45:49. > :45:52.Conservative chairman Grant Shapps. Or, how about dipping into Council
:45:52. > :45:55.reserves, which in some cases are going up, or what about raising
:45:55. > :46:00.council tax? We're joined now by the Conservative Leader of Kent County
:46:00. > :46:07.Council, Paul Carter. Mr Carter, thank you for being with
:46:07. > :46:12.us. So, another 10% of cuts to find, what will you do? On top of the 30%
:46:12. > :46:17.-- on top of the 30% cuts, it will be a massive challenge. But we are
:46:17. > :46:20.not going to put up the white flag in Kent. I believe that by
:46:20. > :46:28.delivering further efficiencies, transforming services, the way we
:46:28. > :46:34.produce services and the will debate around subsidised buses is a good
:46:34. > :46:38.example. Just because Stagecoach may charge an enormous out of money to
:46:38. > :46:42.run those roots, the idea of community mutuals will be the order
:46:42. > :46:46.of the day. We have to be ruthless and rigorous in looking at not
:46:46. > :46:51.necessarily the public sector, Kent County Council delivering their
:46:51. > :46:57.services, but looking at social enterprises, mutuals, taking on a
:46:57. > :47:01.larger share of the services that we deliver. Making sure that we get the
:47:01. > :47:10.very best value and good quality services. Whether we will get there
:47:10. > :47:14.without having to cut, remains to be seen. A journey into the unknown,
:47:14. > :47:20.that means you might have to make some very harsh decisions and ends
:47:20. > :47:22.services completely? Yes, but not until we have explored every avenue
:47:22. > :47:30.and delivered every possible efficiency over a sensible
:47:30. > :47:38.timeline, will be then think about that? What is a sensible timeline,
:47:39. > :47:44.you -- it has to happen now, doesn't it? We have been hit harder than any
:47:44. > :47:47.other department. We will have to accelerate and deliberate. I'm not
:47:47. > :47:53.prepared to admit that we will have to cut services because there are
:47:53. > :47:58.other areas we can explore before the elastic gets to the breaking
:47:58. > :48:04.point. We have to explore all those avenues. Where we will end up, I
:48:04. > :48:08.don't know. We are planning for the 10% cut which has been talked about
:48:08. > :48:14.in Whitehall and Westminster. So we are well prepared. We have good,
:48:14. > :48:19.innovative ideas to help us on that path. We look forward to finding out
:48:19. > :48:24.what those innovative ideas turn out to be. People have talked about
:48:24. > :48:30.reserves, reserves are there for a rainy day. But it sounds like it is
:48:30. > :48:36.raining quite hard at the moment! Is if it -- is this the time to dip in?
:48:36. > :48:41.We have done so and there is a lot of rubbish talked about reserves.
:48:41. > :48:51.They are therefore a good reason. It is responsible, they are in line
:48:51. > :48:53.with recommendation, three or 4% of our turnover, and will be winter
:48:53. > :48:59.coming up, with extraordinary salting and whether requirements to
:48:59. > :49:04.deliver. That is good practice and the remaining reserves are where you
:49:04. > :49:06.may have a number of private finance initiatives and running in your
:49:07. > :49:13.authority where you have greater cost coming toward the end of those
:49:13. > :49:18.contracts than in the early stages. So you budget to pay for those
:49:18. > :49:23.costs. And you could do with some more cash coming in. What about the
:49:23. > :49:30.idea of razor cat -- raising council tax? Surrey put up their council
:49:30. > :49:32.tax, it didn't hurt them at the ballot box. We have been able in
:49:32. > :49:37.Kent through efficiency programmes to freeze council tax for three
:49:38. > :49:43.years. In the Chancellor's statement there is the offer of additional
:49:43. > :49:50.money to help local government freeze local government council tax
:49:50. > :49:54.for the next two years. But that won't be adequate necessarily to
:49:54. > :49:58.fund the extraordinary pressures we are under. So we need to look at
:49:58. > :50:05.that. The problem with the government's council tax freeze
:50:06. > :50:11.grant is that it is one of money, it doesn't go into the base budget. So
:50:11. > :50:17.where costs are rising, it is not something that can go down in a few
:50:17. > :50:20.years time. If that Grant was put into our base budget, we can say now
:50:20. > :50:25.that we could potentially continue with the council tax freeze but I'm
:50:25. > :50:29.not prepared to commit to that at this stage. Norman Baker let's bring
:50:29. > :50:35.you back into it. The coalition is supposed to be about more localism,
:50:35. > :50:40.more local decision-making. But you have already cut 40% from local
:50:40. > :50:46.council budgets. It is making it more difficult. I think Paul Carter
:50:46. > :50:50.gave a very responsible answer. Secretaries of State have gone in to
:50:50. > :50:55.discuss with the Chancellor their budget position. What can sensibly
:50:55. > :51:04.be done in the circumstances, when we need to save money, and how much
:51:04. > :51:09.tolerance can be given to these departments. Vince -- Eric pickles
:51:09. > :51:17.has gone in there saying that he is happy to give 10%. I find that
:51:17. > :51:20.eyebrow raising. But he said that, so assuming the -- so that assumes
:51:20. > :51:27.his government dashed his department has calculated that. There is always
:51:27. > :51:35.room for efficiency savings, Sarah Owen? I question what our local MP
:51:35. > :51:39.was doing as his PPS. Hastings has got the 11th worst settlement for
:51:39. > :51:43.local government funding. We will be losing half of our grant funding
:51:43. > :51:48.over the next few years and I have a lot of sympathy for Paul Carter. In
:51:48. > :51:51.terms of difficult decisions, we have had to get rid of our chief
:51:51. > :51:57.executive to mitigate some of the damages made by the coalition's
:51:57. > :52:01.cuts. Would you rather see council tax go up? I would rather see us put
:52:01. > :52:11.the money where it is actually needed. Hastings is one of the most
:52:11. > :52:15.socially deprived... But would you rather see council tax go up?
:52:15. > :52:18.would rather see money guaranteed for future demand. We have kept the
:52:18. > :52:22.council tax freeze in Hastings but we can't plan for the future if we
:52:22. > :52:30.don't know that the money is coming in. Would you rather see council tax
:52:30. > :52:34.going up? What I would say as a Lib Dem, I believe in localism and I
:52:34. > :52:38.think personally, it is inappropriate that you should force
:52:38. > :52:44.councils down a particular road if that is contrary to what localism
:52:44. > :52:50.degrees. I am in favour of giving councils enough space to take
:52:50. > :52:54.decisions. Paul Carter, it sounds as if you have Norman Baker in your
:52:54. > :53:03.corner, what is your message to government? We have to accept that
:53:03. > :53:06.this cannot go on further from where we now. You can only squeeze the
:53:06. > :53:13.envelope to a certain limit before the elastic breaks and things have
:53:13. > :53:17.to give. And you have the graph of doom which are suggesting that in
:53:17. > :53:20.five to ten years time, the demand on social services will subsume all
:53:20. > :53:25.the other budgets so there will be nothing left to maintain highways
:53:25. > :53:29.and run libraries and all the other services that local government is
:53:29. > :53:33.responsible for. Therefore, the Public Accounts Committee, when the
:53:33. > :53:37.pub -- when the question senior civil servants about whether they
:53:37. > :53:42.look at the long-term outcome for the 10% cut, the answer was that
:53:43. > :53:46.they did not have a clue. We have to accept that this is a massive
:53:46. > :53:51.challenge placed on local government all over the country. Where their
:53:51. > :53:55.journey will end, we don't know. will have to part at the moment.
:53:55. > :54:05.And now a very quick round up of the week's other political events, in
:54:05. > :54:12.
:54:12. > :54:16.Light winged dryad of the trees. Poets John Keats was impressed by
:54:16. > :54:20.the Nightingale. In local inspector has rejected plans to build on Lodge
:54:20. > :54:25.Hill because it is an environmentally sensitive --
:54:25. > :54:30.sensitive site for Nightingale. we can't get the site develops, we
:54:30. > :54:34.will lose 3500 homes. Campaigners are opposing plans to connect the
:54:34. > :54:38.National Grid to Europe by building a natural pylons in East Kent. As
:54:38. > :54:47.part of a spending review, the government has promised �92 million
:54:47. > :54:54.to widen the a 22 near Tonbridge. Imagine you are touring an open top
:54:54. > :55:01.bus when New Year this voice. not talking about Blackadder, or
:55:01. > :55:09.Richard before. Actor Brian Blessed has been in Kent this week. Medway
:55:09. > :55:15.Council are using the actor's voice to guide visitors through sites.
:55:15. > :55:25.Brian Blessed, marvellous! There is money for capital projects,
:55:25. > :55:27.
:55:27. > :55:32.we have heard �92 million for the a 21. I am pleased. The journey from
:55:32. > :55:38.Hastings to London is very long and arduous by road. But it is welcomed.
:55:38. > :55:41.Norman, we have seen the battles they have been over the Hastings and
:55:41. > :55:46.Bexhill link road, there could be a battle over this one. I wouldn't
:55:46. > :55:51.have thought so, to the same degree. It is widening an existing road
:55:51. > :55:55.where is the link road is going through protected countryside area.
:55:55. > :56:00.That is a different kettle of fish. What we are doing is investing