:00:40. > :00:45.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:46. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :01:00.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:01. > :01:05.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:06. > :01:10.coppers will be answering questions this week over the
:01:11. > :01:15.And in the South East: Working but still poor ` we visit the East
:01:16. > :01:17.Sussex town where the Labour council says the minimum wage of ?6.31 an
:01:18. > :01:18.hour just isn't enough. London, does the London assembly
:01:19. > :01:34.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:35. > :01:38.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:39. > :01:43.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:44. > :01:51.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:52. > :01:57.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:58. > :02:02.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:03. > :02:06.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:07. > :02:11.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:12. > :02:16.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:17. > :02:19.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:20. > :02:30.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:31. > :02:34.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:35. > :02:39.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:40. > :02:44.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:45. > :02:49.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:50. > :02:51.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:52. > :02:58.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:59. > :03:01.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:02. > :03:05.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:06. > :03:10.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:11. > :03:16.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:17. > :03:19.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:20. > :03:26.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:27. > :03:31.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:32. > :03:36.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:37. > :03:42.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:43. > :03:45.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:46. > :03:49.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:50. > :03:53.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:54. > :03:57.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:58. > :04:02.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:03. > :04:07.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:08. > :04:10.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:11. > :04:14.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:15. > :04:17.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:18. > :04:21.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:22. > :04:26.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:27. > :04:29.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:30. > :04:33.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:34. > :04:36.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:37. > :04:41.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:42. > :04:44.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:45. > :04:47.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:48. > :04:55.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:56. > :05:01.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:02. > :05:04.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:05. > :05:11.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:12. > :05:15.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:16. > :05:20.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:21. > :05:26.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:27. > :05:30.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:31. > :05:35.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:36. > :05:39.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:40. > :05:46.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:47. > :05:51.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:52. > :05:55.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:56. > :05:59.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:06:00. > :06:03.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:04. > :06:13.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:14. > :06:18.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:19. > :06:21.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:22. > :06:27.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:28. > :06:30.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:31. > :06:35.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:36. > :06:38.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:39. > :06:41.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:42. > :06:47.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:48. > :06:50.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:51. > :06:55.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:56. > :06:59.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:07:00. > :07:03.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:04. > :07:08.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:09. > :07:11.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:12. > :07:15.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:16. > :07:20.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:21. > :07:27.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:28. > :07:33.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:34. > :07:39.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:40. > :07:44.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:45. > :07:48.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:49. > :07:51.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:52. > :07:56.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:57. > :08:00.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:01. > :08:04.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:05. > :08:10.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:11. > :08:13.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:14. > :08:19.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:20. > :08:23.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:24. > :08:27.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:28. > :08:32.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:33. > :08:37.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:38. > :08:42.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:43. > :08:51.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:52. > :08:57.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:58. > :09:03.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:04. > :09:05.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:06. > :09:08.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:09. > :09:14.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:15. > :09:17.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:18. > :09:21.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:22. > :09:27.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:28. > :09:31.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:32. > :09:35.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:36. > :09:39.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:40. > :09:43.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:44. > :09:49.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:50. > :09:53.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:54. > :09:58.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:59. > :10:03.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:04. > :10:07.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:08. > :10:12.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:13. > :10:16.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:17. > :10:20.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:21. > :10:25.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:26. > :10:29.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:30. > :10:32.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:33. > :10:36.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:37. > :10:41.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:42. > :10:45.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:46. > :11:00.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:01. > :11:05.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:06. > :11:10.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:11. > :11:14.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:15. > :11:24.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:25. > :11:27.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:28. > :11:30.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:31. > :11:37.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:38. > :11:41.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:42. > :11:44.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:45. > :11:50.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:51. > :11:56.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:57. > :12:01.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:02. > :12:10.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:11. > :12:15.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:16. > :12:19.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:20. > :12:35.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:36. > :12:43.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:44. > :12:48.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:49. > :12:53.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:54. > :12:57.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:58. > :13:00.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:01. > :13:04.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:05. > :13:09.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:10. > :13:14.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:15. > :13:18.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:19. > :13:22.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:23. > :13:27.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:28. > :13:30.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:31. > :13:35.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:36. > :13:40.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:41. > :13:50.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:51. > :13:54.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:55. > :13:58.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:59. > :14:02.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:03. > :14:06.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:07. > :14:10.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:11. > :14:14.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:15. > :14:19.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:20. > :14:25.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:26. > :14:30.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:31. > :14:39.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:40. > :14:43.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:44. > :14:48.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:49. > :14:52.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:53. > :14:56.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:57. > :15:00.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:01. > :15:04.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:05. > :15:09.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:10. > :15:14.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:15. > :15:17.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:18. > :15:21.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:22. > :15:25.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:26. > :15:30.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:31. > :15:35.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:36. > :15:41.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:42. > :15:59.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:16:00. > :16:03.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:04. > :16:09.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:10. > :16:13.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:14. > :16:17.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:18. > :16:21.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:22. > :16:26.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:27. > :16:31.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:32. > :16:36.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:37. > :16:40.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:41. > :16:45.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:46. > :16:48.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:49. > :17:02.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:03. > :17:07.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:08. > :17:17.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:18. > :17:23.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:24. > :17:30.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:31. > :17:36.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:37. > :17:41.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:42. > :17:47.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:48. > :17:54.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:55. > :18:00.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:01. > :18:04.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:05. > :18:10.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:11. > :18:16.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:17. > :18:23.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:24. > :18:28.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:29. > :18:36.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:37. > :18:43.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:44. > :18:49.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:50. > :18:53.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:54. > :19:01.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:02. > :19:04.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:05. > :19:10.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:11. > :19:16.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:17. > :19:22.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:23. > :19:28.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:29. > :19:36.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:37. > :19:40.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:41. > :19:46.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:47. > :19:49.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:50. > :20:01.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:02. > :20:07.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:08. > :20:18.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:19. > :20:27.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:28. > :20:32.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:33. > :20:40.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:41. > :20:44.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:45. > :20:51.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:52. > :20:59.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:21:00. > :21:12.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:13. > :21:17.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:18. > :21:25.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:26. > :21:29.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:30. > :21:36.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:37. > :21:44.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:45. > :21:47.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:48. > :22:00.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:01. > :22:05.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:06. > :22:12.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:13. > :22:16.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:17. > :22:25.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:26. > :22:28.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:29. > :22:37.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:38. > :22:42.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:43. > :22:49.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:50. > :23:00.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:01. > :23:07.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:08. > :23:07.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:08. > :23:14.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:15. > :23:14.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:15. > :23:19.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:20. > :23:24.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:25. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:38. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:38. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:41. > :23:42.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:43. > :23:55.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:56. > :24:01.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:02. > :24:07.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:08. > :24:11.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:12. > :24:18.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:19. > :24:22.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:23. > :24:28.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:29. > :24:35.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:36. > :24:41.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:42. > :24:47.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:48. > :24:52.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:53. > :24:56.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:57. > :25:01.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:02. > :25:05.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:06. > :25:13.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:14. > :25:16.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:17. > :25:24.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:25. > :25:28.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:29. > :25:35.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:36. > :25:38.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:39. > :25:46.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:47. > :25:51.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:52. > :25:57.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:58. > :26:04.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:05. > :26:09.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:10. > :26:17.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:18. > :26:23.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:24. > :26:35.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:36. > :26:44.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:45. > :26:58.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:59. > :27:03.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:04. > :27:10.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:11. > :27:15.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:16. > :27:23.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:24. > :27:30.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:31. > :27:39.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:40. > :27:41.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:42. > :27:46.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:47. > :27:49.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:50. > :27:51.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:52. > :27:53.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:54. > :27:58.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:59. > :28:05.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:06. > :28:11.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:12. > :28:14.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:15. > :28:21.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:22. > :28:25.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:26. > :28:29.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:30. > :28:34.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:35. > :28:39.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:40. > :28:46.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:47. > :28:53.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:54. > :28:57.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:58. > :29:04.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:05. > :29:07.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:08. > :29:13.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:14. > :29:16.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:17. > :29:22.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:23. > :29:26.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:27. > :29:32.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:33. > :29:36.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:37. > :29:40.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:41. > :29:43.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:44. > :29:49.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:50. > :29:52.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:53. > :29:58.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:59. > :30:02.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:03. > :30:07.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:08. > :30:12.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:13. > :30:15.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:16. > :30:21.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:22. > :30:26.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:27. > :30:30.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:31. > :30:33.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:34. > :30:40.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:41. > :30:50.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:51. > :30:55.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:56. > :31:00.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:01. > :31:05.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:06. > :31:11.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:12. > :31:16.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:17. > :31:19.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:20. > :31:25.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:26. > :31:32.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:33. > :31:38.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:39. > :31:43.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:44. > :31:50.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:51. > :31:55.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:56. > :31:59.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:32:00. > :32:04.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:05. > :32:07.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:08. > :32:16.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:17. > :32:20.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:21. > :32:22.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:23. > :32:33.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:34. > :32:37.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:38. > :32:42.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:43. > :32:47.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:48. > :32:53.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:54. > :33:01.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:02. > :33:05.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:06. > :33:09.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:10. > :33:17.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:18. > :33:21.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:22. > :33:27.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:28. > :33:33.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:34. > :33:36.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:37. > :33:40.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:41. > :33:45.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:46. > :33:49.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:50. > :33:53.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:54. > :33:58.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:59. > :34:02.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:03. > :34:05.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:06. > :34:10.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:11. > :34:14.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:15. > :34:16.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:17. > :34:25.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:26. > :34:28.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:29. > :34:34.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:35. > :34:37.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:38. > :34:41.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:42. > :34:45.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:46. > :34:48.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:49. > :34:52.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:53. > :35:02.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:03. > :35:07.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:08. > :35:13.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:14. > :35:17.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:18. > :35:21.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:22. > :35:25.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:26. > :35:32.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:33. > :35:38.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.
:35:39. > :35:44.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:45. > :35:48.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:49. > :35:54.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:55. > :35:58.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:59. > :36:04.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:05. > :36:09.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:10. > :36:17.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:18. > :36:20.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people
:36:21. > :36:23.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:29.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:30. > :36:31.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:32. > :36:36.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:37. > :36:40.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:41. > :36:44.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..
:36:45. > :36:52.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:53. > :36:58.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:59. > :37:01.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:02. > :37:06.that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:07. > :37:10.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:11. > :37:17.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:18. > :37:19.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went
:37:20. > :37:31.heard this incredible row, where That is not true... . They did not
:37:32. > :37:37.use those words, actually. All right, but it is clear that the
:37:38. > :37:45.Police Federation jumped on this as a politically motivated campaign...
:37:46. > :37:49.I have always said that politics should be kept out of policing. The
:37:50. > :37:53.federation, they cannot go on strike, but this was to covertly
:37:54. > :38:00.political, so I criticise them for that. Do we need a better way of
:38:01. > :38:03.monitoring the police? We need a more competent and properly
:38:04. > :38:09.resourced Independent police commission. But if you look at those
:38:10. > :38:16.Bravery Awards, every police officer, every year, who acts with
:38:17. > :38:23.bravery... That is the police force we want to believe in. That is the
:38:24. > :38:27.police force you have got. We will leave it there. Coming up in just
:38:28. > :38:28.over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to former Lib Minister Jeremy
:38:29. > :38:45.Browne. And in The Week Ahead, Hello, I'm Julia George and this is
:38:46. > :38:48.the Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up later:
:38:49. > :38:52.Re`nationalise the railways? Cap the fares? With families in the
:38:53. > :38:56.South East facing their own cost of living crisis, what is the answer to
:38:57. > :39:00.inflation busting rail fare rises? Joining me in the studio today to
:39:01. > :39:03.discuss this and other topics is the Conservative MP for Rochester and
:39:04. > :39:05.Strood, Mark Reckless. And the Labour Party's prospective
:39:06. > :39:19.Parliamentary candidate for Thanet South, Will Scobie. Great to have
:39:20. > :39:23.you both with us. We'll be having two big debates about how much we
:39:24. > :39:26.earn and how much things cost. But let's start with education ` our
:39:27. > :39:30.children's best chance of a better life. Kent's grammar schools are not
:39:31. > :39:32.offering enough places to bright children from disadvantaged
:39:33. > :39:34.backgrounds, according to David Laws, the Liberal Democrat schools
:39:35. > :39:37.minister. He says in terms of achievement, children on free school
:39:38. > :39:41.meals still lag too far behind children from better off families.
:39:42. > :39:48.So, what can be done to extend educational opportunity to all?
:39:49. > :39:51.I assume most people think that bright, poor children should go to
:39:52. > :39:58.grammar school in greater numbers than they usually do. How do we
:39:59. > :40:01.achieve that? What we've been doing is we've introduced the pupil
:40:02. > :40:06.premium so that children who are on free school meals, extra money goes
:40:07. > :40:09.to those schools depending on how many of those kids there. That money
:40:10. > :40:14.has to be focused on their education. Should they, for
:40:15. > :40:18.instance, be getting tutoring? Because that has made it possible
:40:19. > :40:25.for wealthier families, some would say, to buy a place in grammar
:40:26. > :40:28.school. The Sub Trust are asking whether they should get the same
:40:29. > :40:41.advantage whether they have got the ability to pay. `` Sutton Trust. I
:40:42. > :40:45.wonder if we did have primary schools familiarising people with a
:40:46. > :40:46.test, doing things in terms of helping children with that so it
:40:47. > :40:47.doesn't come as helping children with that so it
:40:48. > :40:48.doesn'sn'%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%sn'%%%%%%% helping children with that so it
:40:49. > :40:55.doesn't come as a shock to them, I ship that will `` I think that will
:40:56. > :40:58.reduce some of the advantage. But the pupil premium is focused on
:40:59. > :41:04.basic skills and that should feed through, as well. It will take time
:41:05. > :41:08.to come through. Apart from tutoring and the cost of it, there are other
:41:09. > :41:14.disincentives to a child from a deprived background wanting to go to
:41:15. > :41:21.grammar school, aren't there? In the sense that you wouldn't fit in,
:41:22. > :41:26.there is uniform, which is up to ?49 for a school dress. A sense that
:41:27. > :41:31.everyone is posher than you. How do we overcome that? It comes back to
:41:32. > :41:36.the attainment gap. That is the issue we need to focus on. I want
:41:37. > :41:41.you to focus on why we haven't got children going to grammar school.
:41:42. > :41:46.International research has shown that intervention in preschool years
:41:47. > :41:53.will have a bigger impact. I think we need to focus the debate on Sure
:41:54. > :41:58.Start. You can focus the debate on that, I'm not going to. Are there
:41:59. > :42:02.disincentives for poor children and should we do some thing about it?
:42:03. > :42:09.Yes, but we want to focus on preschool years in Kent. Kent county
:42:10. > :42:15.council is closing a quarter of Sure, grow start... We've spoken
:42:16. > :42:20.about that before and we are not going to be hijacked into doing it
:42:21. > :42:21.again now. I think certain types of families going is wrong. We should
:42:22. > :42:22.encourage everyone families going is wrong. We should
:42:23. > :42:23.encou I encou%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% families going is wrong. We should
:42:24. > :42:27.encourage everyone to take the test and have support to do that for
:42:28. > :42:32.people across the social spectrum to get them into our grammar schools so
:42:33. > :42:36.that kids with the highest potential get that education. We will see if
:42:37. > :42:45.it happens because the Kent test results have just come out. We all
:42:46. > :42:49.know living in the South East can be a real drain on our finances, and
:42:50. > :42:52.just because you've got a job it doesn't necessarily follow that you
:42:53. > :42:56.have enough money to afford all the basics. Now a Labour council in East
:42:57. > :43:00.Sussex thinks it's come up with a way of changing that. Their idea `
:43:01. > :43:03.the minimum wage of ?6.31 an hour is not enough. They want to pay not
:43:04. > :43:07.just staff but contractors more than that to guarantee what's called the
:43:08. > :43:11.living wage. And they want the whole town to be in on it. In a minute
:43:12. > :43:16.we'll here from one businessman who thinks the living wage would be
:43:17. > :43:20.dangerous. They say money makes the world go
:43:21. > :43:26.around but one in six workers in the South East don't even earn enough to
:43:27. > :43:31.give them a decent standard of living. Cleaners, bar staff and shop
:43:32. > :43:40.workers are the most likely to earn below the living wage, which is ?7
:43:41. > :43:46.45 and our outside London. `` ?7.45 per hour. But this borough council
:43:47. > :43:51.is trying to turn that around. It already pays its employees the
:43:52. > :43:55.living wage, which is corrugated on the basic cost of living. It now
:43:56. > :44:00.wants people employed through contract is to be paid the same. The
:44:01. > :44:05.council hopes other employers will follow the example so Hastings will
:44:06. > :44:08.become a living wage town. I don't want Hastings Borough Council to be
:44:09. > :44:12.in the lead when we race to the bottom to see who can provide the
:44:13. > :44:16.cheapest services and who will take the lowest wage. It's a matter of
:44:17. > :44:22.decency and fairness. The minimum wage is a minimum but it is the very
:44:23. > :44:26.minimum in terms of rising living standards, fuel costs, food costs.
:44:27. > :44:34.That is the basic minimum and a living wage is really what people
:44:35. > :44:38.required to live on. Hayley received a slight pay rise when she started
:44:39. > :44:45.earning a living wage at this mercenary in Brighton, which is run
:44:46. > :44:48.by the Sussex Community NHS trust. We noticed it straightaway and it
:44:49. > :44:53.was quite substantial leap and what it equates to is that I can take my
:44:54. > :45:00.children for a day out once a month. It has enriched our lives not
:45:01. > :45:03.a huge amount, but so that we can just enjoy our lifestyles of it
:45:04. > :45:08.better. I think it's a really good thing that the trust is doing it and
:45:09. > :45:13.hopefully, other, larger corporations will follow suit
:45:14. > :45:17.because it does enrich lives. Hayley is one of 300 employees paid the
:45:18. > :45:21.living wage, which costs the trust an extra ?21,000 a year. It will
:45:22. > :45:26.help recruit staff to the organisation, people will see we are
:45:27. > :45:30.the right kind of organisation. We'll have a reduction in our
:45:31. > :45:35.temporary staffing costs, which are usually expensive because we have to
:45:36. > :45:37.pay a premium. There are direct benefits to productivity and
:45:38. > :45:43.efficiency that come from having a more motivated, or enthusiastic
:45:44. > :45:50.workforce. Childcare is another sector where workers are unlikely to
:45:51. > :45:54.earn a living wage. But the widespread introduction of the
:45:55. > :46:03.living wage could save the government ?2 billion a year,
:46:04. > :46:06.according to a think tank. They say the government would collect more
:46:07. > :46:11.income tax and pay less in benefits and tax credits. Campaigners also
:46:12. > :46:17.insist local authorities can influence other employers. What
:46:18. > :46:22.Hastings are doing is a really great example of how civic leadership can
:46:23. > :46:28.drive change. So the council has adopted the living wage but is doing
:46:29. > :46:32.more than that. It is saying to local employers to think about the
:46:33. > :46:36.sort of economy we want. It is difficult for small employers but we
:46:37. > :46:40.know from research by the Federation of small businesses that the
:46:41. > :46:45.majority of small businesses already pay the living wage and it is
:46:46. > :46:47.actually larger companies who are sometimes lagging behind and
:46:48. > :46:52.sticking to the national minimum wage. Here in the South East the
:46:53. > :46:56.cost of living is greater than anywhere outside London but the
:46:57. > :47:01.number of people earning less than the living wage here is rising. As
:47:02. > :47:08.well as in Hastings, other local authorities have also taken the lead
:47:09. > :47:11.in paying the living wage, including Gravesham and Crawley Borough
:47:12. > :47:15.councils and Surrey county council. So isn't it time for other employers
:47:16. > :47:18.to follow suit? I'm joined now from Hastings by
:47:19. > :47:23.Jonathan Dolding from the Hastings area Chamber of Commerce. We've got
:47:24. > :47:29.a town here with high levels of deprivation. Isn't the living wage
:47:30. > :47:33.exactly what Hastings needs? We certainly agree with the sentiments
:47:34. > :47:39.that we want a town that is a vibrant economy, growing and strong.
:47:40. > :47:45.We want to see people paid well and that are well educated. But there
:47:46. > :47:51.are some inherent problems with the living wage. What are they? We are
:47:52. > :47:56.still in a relatively fragile economy. We're seeing some growth
:47:57. > :48:00.but most business people locally are cautiously optimistic about the
:48:01. > :48:05.future. We need to see sustained growth before wage levels can rise.
:48:06. > :48:12.We had a really positive business case that we heard from companies
:48:13. > :48:16.who signed up. Productivity increases, absenteeism goes down,
:48:17. > :48:22.staff retention is improved, but it's good for individuals and
:48:23. > :48:25.society. What's not to like? I was chatting two days ago to a local
:48:26. > :48:31.employer that employs close to 100 people. They're under significant
:48:32. > :48:37.pressure from competition in India and as much as they would love to
:48:38. > :48:43.pay all their employees the living wage, they soon began to Ford. They
:48:44. > :48:49.would be out of business. `` they simply can't afford it. Aren't these
:48:50. > :48:54.the arguments we heard about the introduction of the minimum wage in
:48:55. > :48:57.1999? People said the same thing then but nobody would revoke that
:48:58. > :49:03.now. The horror stories didn't come to pass. Know but we need to see,
:49:04. > :49:09.particularly in a town like Hastings, sustained investment.
:49:10. > :49:15.Particularly in infrastructure and skills, so businesses can grow and
:49:16. > :49:19.create wealth and more jobs and then pay people better wages. Thank you
:49:20. > :49:24.for joining us from Hastings. You heard the businessman ` he says it's
:49:25. > :49:28.the wrong time to throw extra overheads at fragile small
:49:29. > :49:34.businesses. 100 jobs could be lost at just one company he's spoken to.
:49:35. > :49:39.It's just not the right time or place, is it? Hastings Council need
:49:40. > :49:44.to be given praise for what they've done. It has helped the lowest paid
:49:45. > :49:53.workers at the council and we've changed tendering contracts, too. I
:49:54. > :49:56.am knowledge there are risks but it is something the council should be
:49:57. > :49:59.campaigning for and asking businesses. It's a two`way
:50:00. > :50:05.conversation. I think there should be praise for what they've done.
:50:06. > :50:10.It's disappointing that other councils haven't taken this on.
:50:11. > :50:15.There was a consultation at Medway that was voted down by some of
:50:16. > :50:20.Mark's colleagues. Are you disappointed, Mark? I think it was
:50:21. > :50:24.the right decision. It is the public sector unions who are driving this
:50:25. > :50:27.and I think the job of the council is to serve its council tax payers
:50:28. > :50:36.by delivering services as cost effectively as possible. It's not to
:50:37. > :50:42.give higher wages. It saves money on benefits. It increases tax revenues.
:50:43. > :50:46.The IPPR says the living wage would benefit the government to the tune
:50:47. > :50:53.of ?2 billion a year. You're an economist ` it's a no`brainer. The
:50:54. > :50:56.Labour Party, dependent on the unions, are promoting this so that
:50:57. > :51:01.council money is not spent on giving the most cost`effective services to
:51:02. > :51:09.the council taxpayer but instead spent on higher wages for the staff
:51:10. > :51:13.and in this case... ?7.45 an hour! They are saying they want to drive
:51:14. > :51:20.up the cost of everything the council buys. It might focus with
:51:21. > :51:23.mind on doing the job better. Let me ask about the government because you
:51:24. > :51:29.are insinuating this is bad value for taxpayers. So you want the
:51:30. > :51:34.government instead ` essentially taxpayers ` to continue to subsidise
:51:35. > :51:37.low`paying employers? I want the taxpayer to get goods and services
:51:38. > :51:41.in most cost`effective way, rather than driving up costs I paying staff
:51:42. > :51:48.more than they need to dig it able to do the job. You want the lowest
:51:49. > :51:52.possible wage? I want the lowest possible council tax for the
:51:53. > :51:58.taxpayer. A lot of these people are paying council tax. In Medway, where
:51:59. > :52:02.it is ?100 cheaper, the last thing we want to do is drive up the costs
:52:03. > :52:06.thanks to this trade union based activity. If Ed Miliband wins the
:52:07. > :52:12.next election, what is going to happen with the living wage? How far
:52:13. > :52:17.as the party prepared to push it? He has orally said he wants to
:52:18. > :52:22.strengthen the minimum wage. Living wage or minimum wage? Minimum wage.
:52:23. > :52:30.This is the elephant in the room, the minimum wage is too low. Yes and
:52:31. > :52:33.it is falling. I think there is some case for increasing the minimum wage
:52:34. > :52:36.but I don't want to see a system where if you're in the public
:52:37. > :52:41.sector, you get paid more. From what we earn to what we spend.
:52:42. > :52:44.?4800 ` that's how much it costs for an annual season ticket from
:52:45. > :52:50.Canterbury to London. Want to travel between Brighton and the capital?
:52:51. > :52:54.You'll have to find ?4200. And those prices will go up again in January.
:52:55. > :52:57.No surprise, then, that the cost of your train ticket is a big issue for
:52:58. > :53:05.thousands of commuters. Stephen Joseph from the Campaign for Better
:53:06. > :53:09.Transport joins me from Westminster. It's great news, then, Stephen. The
:53:10. > :53:13.government is curbing the amount that our rail fares can go up in the
:53:14. > :53:18.next year. You must be thrilled. Unfortunately, that's not what is
:53:19. > :53:22.really happening. The government is putting limits on the maximum train
:53:23. > :53:30.companies can charge at all that means is that the average will still
:53:31. > :53:33.go up by a love inflation, so for the next year and for the
:53:34. > :53:39.foreseeable future, since government hasn't set a date for ending this,
:53:40. > :53:42.we will have continued above`inflation fare rises of at
:53:43. > :53:46.least one present a year. All the government has done is said the
:53:47. > :53:54.companies can only charge another 2% on top of that. `` at least 1%. The
:53:55. > :53:58.government is putting extra taxes on people working by charging higher
:53:59. > :54:03.rail fares. We'll put that Mark reckless in a moment. It is
:54:04. > :54:07.significant, isn't it, because of all the commuter routes into London
:54:08. > :54:10.we've discovered that nine out of ten top rail fare increases were for
:54:11. > :54:18.journeys from stations in Kent or East Sussex it's a massive issue in
:54:19. > :54:21.the South East, isn't it? A huge issue in the South East,
:54:22. > :54:28.particularly in the marginals that are going to decide the next
:54:29. > :54:31.election. In Maidstone, where people are now paying 87% more for an
:54:32. > :54:36.annual season ticket than ten years ago, and that is going to carry on
:54:37. > :54:46.going up by above inflation of at least 1% over the next couple of
:54:47. > :54:50.years, people will be hit. A very quick answer to this, because I want
:54:51. > :54:55.to ask our guests in the studio, but Caroline Lucas, the green Brighton
:54:56. > :55:00.Pavilion MP, says it's time to re`nationalise the railways. Would
:55:01. > :55:03.that make a difference? Not necessarily, depending on what the
:55:04. > :55:07.Treasury do to control this. You could still have a nationalised
:55:08. > :55:15.railway and above inflation fare rises. Thank you very much.
:55:16. > :55:20.Nationalisation ` it's interesting, isn't it? Will Scobey, at the Labour
:55:21. > :55:26.Party conference, members voted in favour. You weren't there but would
:55:27. > :55:32.you have voted in favour? They voted in favour of this being something
:55:33. > :55:38.that the party looks that come. `` looks at. I think we should have all
:55:39. > :55:41.options looked at. When we are discussing all this about the
:55:42. > :55:46.increases, it's all coming back to the cost of living agenda that Ed
:55:47. > :55:48.Miliband has been leading on. The Conservatives talking about fuel
:55:49. > :55:52.prices and rail fares is just responding to what Ed Miliband has
:55:53. > :55:56.said and the most important thing coming out of the conference was the
:55:57. > :56:02.energy prices. That is a way of helping people directly. But we're
:56:03. > :56:07.not talking about that. They've stolen a march on you, Mark, and
:56:08. > :56:13.what is patiently absurd is to talk about a rail fare increase of
:56:14. > :56:18.anywhere between 4.10% and 6.10% and talk about putting money back in
:56:19. > :56:21.people's pockets. I don't think we are responding to Ed Miliband and
:56:22. > :56:28.him driving up the cost of living as energy secretary. 6.10% on top of
:56:29. > :56:32.something that may cost you ?5,000 already and you expect us to believe
:56:33. > :56:37.it is putting money back in our pockets. Under the last
:56:38. > :56:47.government... I'm not talking about the previous government. It's only
:56:48. > :56:56.going up by RPI plus 1%. A flexibility of 2%`5%. I would like
:56:57. > :57:02.to see a cut in fares by 2015. You are entirely in line with the Labour
:57:03. > :57:06.Party. 1% above inflation? We can city and try and split hairs but
:57:07. > :57:12.both parties believe in caps above inflation. I support what Mark said.
:57:13. > :57:17.We need to get to the root of inflation. Labour is leading on this
:57:18. > :57:24.issue and coming up with schemes that will money back in pockets. The
:57:25. > :57:30.Tories are just responding to that, and not very well. I'm not sure we
:57:31. > :57:36.do believe in that. We have already brought it down to 1% above
:57:37. > :57:39.inflation. I would like to freeze or cut fares. Is anyone at the
:57:40. > :57:45.Department for transport listening to you? You've gone some distance
:57:46. > :57:52.but there is a long way still to go. They're listening. I'm going to give
:57:53. > :57:55.up the campaign until they succeed. A round`up now of all the other
:57:56. > :58:02.political events you might have missed this week.
:58:03. > :58:12.Are you a Kent teenager looking for a job? Then this could be for you.
:58:13. > :58:14.Kent PCC and Barnes has begun recruitment for a new youth
:58:15. > :58:19.commission after Paris Brown resigned in April.
:58:20. > :58:24.Almost 60 years after he took his own life after being convicted of
:58:25. > :58:26.gross indecency under anti`homosexuality legislation, Alan
:58:27. > :58:33.Turing could be pardoned. What happened to him was completely wrong
:58:34. > :58:39.and everyone can now see that. Caroline Lucas was in court this
:58:40. > :58:43.week. She faces two charges, including obstructing a highway,
:58:44. > :58:47.during an anti`fracking protest. I want to join others in actively
:58:48. > :58:51.opposing the expectation of yet more fossil fuels.
:58:52. > :58:55.Eric Pickles has been venturing across the states. A pair of
:58:56. > :59:00.students from Kent took a cardboard cutout of him on their American
:59:01. > :59:08.travels. They said they chose him because he is a heavyweight
:59:09. > :59:11.politician and a funny guy. Students' troubles get more bizarre.
:59:12. > :59:19.Let's talk about young people in politics. A Kent teenager as a youth
:59:20. > :59:22.commission. We've had one rather uncomfortable experience with that
:59:23. > :59:27.recruitment process already. Do we need one? Can one person represent
:59:28. > :59:43.what all young people feel? I don't think so. And has done a good job of
:59:44. > :59:46.looking at the issue. `` an. Do you think it is impossible to find
:59:47. > :59:50.someone that doesn't have anything uncomfortable? I think it is
:59:51. > :59:55.difficult and fraught with problems and there are other ways you can
:59:56. > :59:58.engage with young people. I think it was a mistake and I just thought the
:59:59. > :00:03.pressure put on this young lady was terrible. I felt and Barnes should
:00:04. > :00:06.have taken responsible tea. She shouldn't have put in that
:00:07. > :00:14.position. She should have apologised. Interesting hearing
:00:15. > :00:20.David Cameron talking about Alan Turing. We are at the end of
:00:21. > :00:24.anti`hate crime week. The Whitstable local newspaper caused a storm by
:00:25. > :00:35.printing an article with the headline" take heed, all ye
:00:36. > :00:39.homosexual sinners. " Is the South East bigoted? I don't think so.
:00:40. > :00:47.We've got to challenge people to spread love. There was a quote from
:00:48. > :00:51.the Bible. It was about the campaigns by Stonewall. The response
:00:52. > :00:54.was a letter quoting the Bible but headline that the newspaper made up
:00:55. > :00:59.themselves telling homosexual sinners to take heed. I think some
:01:00. > :01:05.religious people feel fairly hard done by themselves but I think we
:01:06. > :01:09.have to tolerate and indeed celebrate everyone in our society
:01:10. > :01:15.and I'm pleased that we're agreed on that across the political spectrum.
:01:16. > :01:20.On cue both very much. `` thank you. That's all we've got time for from
:01:21. > :01:22.the South East this week. BBC South East has a day of special reports
:01:23. > :01:25.tomorrow, examining the performance and public perception of the
:01:26. > :01:30.country's first ever Green`led council, Brighton and Hove. I'll see
:01:31. > :01:35.you in a couple of weeks. Goodbye. which links in with this. Thank you
:01:36. > :01:45.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:46. > :01:53.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:54. > :01:59.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:02:00. > :02:06.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:07. > :02:09.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:10. > :02:17.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:18. > :02:23.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:24. > :02:27.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:28. > :02:38.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:39. > :02:43.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:44. > :02:48.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:49. > :02:52.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:53. > :02:56.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:57. > :03:01.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:02. > :03:06.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:07. > :03:12.be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:13. > :03:16.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:17. > :03:24.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:25. > :03:29.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:30. > :03:33.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:34. > :03:38.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:39. > :03:41.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:42. > :03:44.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:45. > :03:51.the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and
:03:52. > :03:54.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:55. > :03:58.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:59. > :04:02.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:03. > :04:05.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:06. > :04:09.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:10. > :04:15.policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward
:04:16. > :04:19.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:20. > :04:24.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:25. > :04:28.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:29. > :04:36.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:37. > :04:45.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:46. > :04:48.area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and
:04:49. > :04:51.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:52. > :04:55.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:56. > :04:59.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:05:00. > :05:02.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:03. > :05:06.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:07. > :05:11.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:12. > :05:13.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:14. > :05:20.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:21. > :05:27.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:28. > :05:30.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:31. > :05:34.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:35. > :05:37.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:38. > :05:41.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:42. > :05:46.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:47. > :05:49.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:50. > :05:56.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:57. > :06:02.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:03. > :06:05.should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be
:06:06. > :06:09.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:10. > :06:14.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:15. > :06:18.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:19. > :06:22.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:23. > :06:25.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:26. > :06:30.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:31. > :06:35.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:36. > :06:48.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:49. > :06:53.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:54. > :07:00.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:01. > :07:05.Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous
:07:06. > :07:08.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:09. > :07:11.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:12. > :07:16.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:17. > :07:20.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:21. > :07:24.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:25. > :07:31.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:32. > :07:34.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:35. > :07:39.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:40. > :07:42.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:43. > :07:52.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:53. > :07:57.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:58. > :08:02.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:03. > :08:06.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:07. > :08:10.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:11. > :08:14.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:15. > :08:27.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:28. > :08:32.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:33. > :08:35.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:36. > :08:39.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:40. > :08:45.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:46. > :08:50.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:51. > :08:54.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:55. > :08:58.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:59. > :09:02.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:03. > :09:05.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:06. > :09:09.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:10. > :09:15.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:16. > :09:19.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:20. > :09:22.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:23. > :09:26.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:27. > :09:30.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:31. > :09:33.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:34. > :09:43.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:44. > :09:47.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:48. > :09:50.not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like
:09:51. > :09:56.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:57. > :10:01.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:02. > :10:05.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:06. > :10:11.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:12. > :10:15.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:16. > :10:22.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:23. > :10:28.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:29. > :10:33.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:34. > :10:36.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:37. > :10:45.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:46. > :10:54.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:55. > :10:59.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s
:11:00. > :11:07.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:08. > :11:11.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:12. > :11:17.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:18. > :11:21.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:22. > :11:26.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:27. > :11:30.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:31. > :11:36.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:37. > :11:39.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:40. > :11:46.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:47. > :11:50.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:51. > :11:57.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:58. > :12:01.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:02. > :12:06.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:07. > :12:15.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:16. > :12:20.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:21. > :12:24.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:25. > :12:26.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:27. > :12:30.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:31. > :12:36.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:37. > :12:42.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:43. > :12:48.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:49. > :12:52.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:53. > :13:03.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:04. > :13:10.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:11. > :13:13.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:14. > :13:20.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:21. > :13:25.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:26. > :13:31.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:32. > :13:36.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:37. > :13:39.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:40. > :13:43.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:44. > :13:46.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:47. > :13:56.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means
:13:57. > :14:01.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:02. > :14:04.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:05. > :14:08.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:09. > :14:15.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.