:00:39. > :00:51.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:52. > :00:56.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:57. > :01:01.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:02. > :01:05.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:06. > :01:10.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:11. > :01:15.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:16. > :01:17.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:18. > :01:36.should be covered up. We authority is investigating --
:01:37. > :01:41.investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on
:01:42. > :01:49.its staff. With me as always, the best and the
:01:50. > :01:53.brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt
:01:54. > :01:56.who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they
:01:57. > :02:03.got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to
:02:04. > :02:07.a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home
:02:08. > :02:11.Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the
:02:12. > :02:16.treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met
:02:17. > :02:20.him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was
:02:21. > :02:24.prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.
:02:25. > :02:31.But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.
:02:32. > :02:34.Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.
:02:35. > :02:39.The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there
:02:40. > :02:45.enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the
:02:46. > :02:49.police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad
:02:50. > :02:53.and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for
:02:54. > :02:59.contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to
:03:00. > :03:03.prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what
:03:04. > :03:07.is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try
:03:08. > :03:15.to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from
:03:16. > :03:20.day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I
:03:21. > :03:26.knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.
:03:27. > :03:30.And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as
:03:31. > :03:35.to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not
:03:36. > :03:40.will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the
:03:41. > :03:44.Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can
:03:45. > :03:50.say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under
:03:51. > :03:56.statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This
:03:57. > :03:59.is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy
:04:00. > :04:06.of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will
:04:07. > :04:12.keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung
:04:13. > :04:17.the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like
:04:18. > :04:20.his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the
:04:21. > :04:27.report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in
:04:28. > :04:31.Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as
:04:32. > :04:36.deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len
:04:37. > :04:42.McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out
:04:43. > :04:47.the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a
:04:48. > :04:52.petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the
:04:53. > :04:56.Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come
:04:57. > :05:00.under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance
:05:01. > :05:06.demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of
:05:07. > :05:13.a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy
:05:14. > :05:17.the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems
:05:18. > :05:23.to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in
:05:24. > :05:28.deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him
:05:29. > :05:33.as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of
:05:34. > :05:40.labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend
:05:41. > :05:46.of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any
:05:47. > :05:56.wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len
:05:57. > :06:01.McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is
:06:02. > :06:09.in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion
:06:10. > :06:15.trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved
:06:16. > :06:21.in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing
:06:22. > :06:26.new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in
:06:27. > :06:30.the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had
:06:31. > :06:34.done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in
:06:35. > :06:40.Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says
:06:41. > :06:45.you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to
:06:46. > :06:49.fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you
:06:50. > :06:55.thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the
:06:56. > :07:02.Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then
:07:03. > :07:06.instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and
:07:07. > :07:11.during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened
:07:12. > :07:15.and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I
:07:16. > :07:21.was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent
:07:22. > :07:26.enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing
:07:27. > :07:30.because the people who originally complained changed their evidence
:07:31. > :07:35.and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to
:07:36. > :07:42.rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.
:07:43. > :07:49.We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that
:07:50. > :07:56.all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting
:07:57. > :08:01.the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are
:08:02. > :08:09.allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were
:08:10. > :08:13.put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they
:08:14. > :08:18.doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations
:08:19. > :08:23.that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea
:08:24. > :08:28.that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families
:08:29. > :08:37.has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They
:08:38. > :08:42.clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved
:08:43. > :08:48.in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.
:08:49. > :08:52.Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they
:08:53. > :09:01.are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position
:09:02. > :09:08.is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw
:09:09. > :09:16.their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his
:09:17. > :09:20.family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full
:09:21. > :09:28.weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to
:09:29. > :09:34.Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an
:09:35. > :09:38.independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:09:39. > :09:45.office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,
:09:46. > :09:49.the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks
:09:50. > :09:57.for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since
:09:58. > :10:07.when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to
:10:08. > :10:14.the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and
:10:15. > :10:18.it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making
:10:19. > :10:25.decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift
:10:26. > :10:33.back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent
:10:34. > :10:37.protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was
:10:38. > :10:44.not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling
:10:45. > :10:52.everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had
:10:53. > :10:59.loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to
:11:00. > :11:06.join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the
:11:07. > :11:12.Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going
:11:13. > :11:16.to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were
:11:17. > :11:23.loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the
:11:24. > :11:30.Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have
:11:31. > :11:35.used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at
:11:36. > :11:41.people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to
:11:42. > :11:47.look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an
:11:48. > :11:50.absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the
:11:51. > :11:58.21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the
:11:59. > :12:03.wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever
:12:04. > :12:11.it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk
:12:12. > :12:20.constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your
:12:21. > :12:26.opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con
:12:27. > :12:34.trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your
:12:35. > :12:38.legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of
:12:39. > :12:43.trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband
:12:44. > :12:47.wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way
:12:48. > :12:53.ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company
:12:54. > :12:58.started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,
:12:59. > :13:04.that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called
:13:05. > :13:09.INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring
:13:10. > :13:16.Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to
:13:17. > :13:24.a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who
:13:25. > :13:29.says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it
:13:30. > :13:35.in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make
:13:36. > :13:38.that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You
:13:39. > :13:46.instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what
:13:47. > :13:52.Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the
:13:53. > :13:58.petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due
:13:59. > :14:04.introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was
:14:05. > :14:08.being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost
:14:09. > :14:14.Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was
:14:15. > :14:19.saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and
:14:20. > :14:27.humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len
:14:28. > :14:33.McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with
:14:34. > :14:37.INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop
:14:38. > :14:41.stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns
:14:42. > :14:49.and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has
:14:50. > :14:55.condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have
:14:56. > :14:59.you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour
:15:00. > :15:05.Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested
:15:06. > :15:09.in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the
:15:10. > :15:16.requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last
:15:17. > :15:20.Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will
:15:21. > :15:25.continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they
:15:26. > :15:32.are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.
:15:33. > :15:38.You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.
:15:39. > :15:44.We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company
:15:45. > :15:48.to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking
:15:49. > :15:53.unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive
:15:54. > :16:01.industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all
:16:02. > :16:03.Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to
:16:04. > :16:10.implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is
:16:11. > :16:13.what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our
:16:14. > :16:19.members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not
:16:20. > :16:24.be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as
:16:25. > :16:38.disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My
:16:39. > :16:42.membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are
:16:43. > :16:46.executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me
:16:47. > :16:51.standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I
:16:52. > :17:05.will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us
:17:06. > :17:07.by the media. "A country ready to welcome your
:17:08. > :17:10.investment which values your friendship and will never exclude
:17:11. > :17:13.anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The
:17:14. > :17:16.words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which
:17:17. > :17:19.was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm
:17:20. > :17:22.words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a
:17:23. > :17:25.spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the
:17:26. > :17:27.wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of
:17:28. > :17:30.some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the
:17:31. > :17:40.Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.
:17:41. > :17:44.First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east
:17:45. > :17:50.London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,
:17:51. > :17:55.one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it
:17:56. > :17:59.frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the
:18:00. > :18:03.British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,
:18:04. > :18:07.traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate
:18:08. > :18:11.to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one
:18:12. > :18:20.question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to
:18:21. > :18:24.address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront
:18:25. > :18:29.radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of
:18:30. > :18:38.sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not
:18:39. > :18:44.nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young
:18:45. > :18:48.Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using
:18:49. > :18:56.Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this
:18:57. > :19:03.work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has
:19:04. > :19:13.been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public
:19:14. > :19:16.to please people but in private something very different is being
:19:17. > :19:22.said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,
:19:23. > :19:30.it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for
:19:31. > :19:35.radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's
:19:36. > :19:41.faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if
:19:42. > :19:48.rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some
:19:49. > :19:55.sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,
:19:56. > :20:00.and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and
:20:01. > :20:05.it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially
:20:06. > :20:11.when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to
:20:12. > :20:14.talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There
:20:15. > :20:21.is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the
:20:22. > :20:26.one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist
:20:27. > :20:38.perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of
:20:39. > :20:53.minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public
:20:54. > :21:04.places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy
:21:05. > :21:08.of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and
:21:09. > :21:11.that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the
:21:12. > :21:16.preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council
:21:17. > :21:20.of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating
:21:21. > :21:26.sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved
:21:27. > :21:33.predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for
:21:34. > :21:39.some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We
:21:40. > :21:47.need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the
:21:48. > :21:51.normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and
:21:52. > :21:58.chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that
:21:59. > :22:03.actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible
:22:04. > :22:10.with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to
:22:11. > :22:14.women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures
:22:15. > :22:18.of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain
:22:19. > :22:27.itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they
:22:28. > :22:35.are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to
:22:36. > :22:35.are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are
:22:36. > :22:40.experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages
:22:41. > :22:43.what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not
:22:44. > :22:49.being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance
:22:50. > :22:51.rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been
:22:52. > :22:56.found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in
:22:57. > :23:03.this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what
:23:04. > :23:09.are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem
:23:10. > :23:12.of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be
:23:13. > :23:17.exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many
:23:18. > :23:22.Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a
:23:23. > :23:30.big cultural gap will exist between the two.
:23:31. > :23:32.And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq
:23:33. > :23:41.Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the
:23:42. > :23:48.veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible
:23:49. > :23:56.to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory
:23:57. > :23:59.requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting
:24:00. > :24:13.themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst
:24:14. > :24:16.wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life
:24:17. > :24:20.successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red
:24:21. > :24:27.herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim
:24:28. > :24:36.girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point
:24:37. > :24:41.of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the
:24:42. > :24:49.public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones
:24:50. > :24:57.who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a
:24:58. > :25:03.practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour
:25:04. > :25:09.it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women
:25:10. > :25:14.should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the
:25:15. > :25:19.veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is
:25:20. > :25:26.important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free
:25:27. > :25:29.choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their
:25:30. > :25:35.free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it
:25:36. > :25:40.helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away
:25:41. > :25:45.from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad
:25:46. > :25:50.thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim
:25:51. > :25:55.preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim
:25:56. > :26:02.women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim
:26:03. > :26:09.women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being
:26:10. > :26:14.forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and
:26:15. > :26:20.what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,
:26:21. > :26:25.very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is
:26:26. > :26:31.wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other
:26:32. > :26:34.Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider
:26:35. > :26:45.that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any
:26:46. > :26:48.Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an
:26:49. > :26:53.organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not
:26:54. > :27:00.coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by
:27:01. > :27:04.individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that
:27:05. > :27:09.would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would
:27:10. > :27:21.not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires
:27:22. > :27:29.children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you
:27:30. > :27:38.agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have
:27:39. > :27:46.just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a
:27:47. > :27:52.black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on
:27:53. > :28:03.anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.
:28:04. > :28:10.I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think
:28:11. > :28:15.it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would
:28:16. > :28:27.wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some
:28:28. > :28:33.muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the
:28:34. > :28:37.start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I
:28:38. > :28:47.would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic
:28:48. > :28:52.girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the
:28:53. > :29:00.top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.
:29:01. > :29:04.But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those
:29:05. > :29:12.girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I
:29:13. > :29:18.am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.
:29:19. > :29:30.There is a very conservative movement from the continent on
:29:31. > :29:34.Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their
:29:35. > :29:41.website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged
:29:42. > :29:46.to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should
:29:47. > :29:51.not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you
:29:52. > :29:56.think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They
:29:57. > :30:05.are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree
:30:06. > :30:13.with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is
:30:14. > :30:18.what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is
:30:19. > :30:29.quite the contrary. Let me show you another one.
:30:30. > :30:36.BBC 1 another one. Another Fatwa. Do you
:30:37. > :33:54.That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we
:33:55. > :33:59.live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they
:34:00. > :34:04.have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You
:34:05. > :34:12.would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like
:34:13. > :34:19.that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation
:34:20. > :34:22.to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's
:34:23. > :34:30.rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law
:34:31. > :34:38.of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger
:34:39. > :34:46.issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul
:34:47. > :34:56.declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it
:34:57. > :35:05.or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media
:35:06. > :35:12.mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself
:35:13. > :35:19.from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration
:35:20. > :35:28.because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign
:35:29. > :35:35.it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the
:35:36. > :35:44.declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there
:35:45. > :35:51.was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not
:35:52. > :35:55.what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the
:35:56. > :36:06.yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The
:36:07. > :36:07.East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with
:36:08. > :36:13.is the venue for a number of is the venue for a number of
:36:14. > :36:24.extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the
:36:25. > :36:28.mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described
:36:29. > :36:31.by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another
:36:32. > :36:37.speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad
:36:38. > :36:42.is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop
:36:43. > :36:50.extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?
:36:51. > :36:56.We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or
:36:57. > :37:00.supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is
:37:01. > :37:06.a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is
:37:07. > :37:12.a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told
:37:13. > :37:17.their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to
:37:18. > :37:27.speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a
:37:28. > :37:34.Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did
:37:35. > :37:40.not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and
:37:41. > :37:49.have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I
:37:50. > :37:55.completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,
:37:56. > :38:00.the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the
:38:01. > :38:05.toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted
:38:06. > :38:11.among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a
:38:12. > :38:19.non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which
:38:20. > :38:26.embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim
:38:27. > :38:31.community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which
:38:32. > :38:36.are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our
:38:37. > :38:42.view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The
:38:43. > :38:48.work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all
:38:49. > :38:53.associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are
:38:54. > :39:09.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke
:39:10. > :39:16.Hello, this is the Sunday Politics in the south`east. Coming up later,
:39:17. > :39:22.they will breathe new life into rural communities. That is according
:39:23. > :39:26.to the government, the Campaign For The Protection Of Rural England says
:39:27. > :39:29.it will destroy the character of the special areas. So who is correct
:39:30. > :39:35.when it comes to the planning proposals? My guess is our Damian
:39:36. > :39:38.Green, Conservative MP for Ashford and Home Office Minister in charge
:39:39. > :39:44.of policing, criminal Justice and victims. I'm also joined by
:39:45. > :39:49.Labour's Joe Clark `` Paul Clarke. He will be standing as a Labour
:39:50. > :39:56.candidate again in the next general election. We have had Mondeo man,
:39:57. > :40:00.Worcester woman and even pebble dash people. They are all target groups
:40:01. > :40:03.for political parties, the people they need to win over to make it
:40:04. > :40:06.into Number 10. This week, Ed Miliband said he would be fighting
:40:07. > :40:11.the Tories on their own ground for the votes of the suburban mindset.
:40:12. > :40:16.People who have a conservatory, a Facebook page and you are dedicated
:40:17. > :40:21.to family and work. It could be you. But would it have any impact in
:40:22. > :40:28.the Southeast? Let's start with you personally. Not even on the top
:40:29. > :40:32.target list, are you? A political heavyweight, former minister, the
:40:33. > :40:39.party has not lost faith with you? Not at all. You have to have
:40:40. > :40:44.resources and target those resources. In 1997, when we first
:40:45. > :40:50.won deceit, it was not on the target list either. We are out there to the
:40:51. > :40:57.hearts and minds, whoever they be, pebble dashed... You don't approve
:40:58. > :41:01.of targeting? I do, absolutely, you have to use resources as best you
:41:02. > :41:06.can. The only way we can make changes that help hard`pressed
:41:07. > :41:09.families, pensioners and so on, is actually to be daring the
:41:10. > :41:13.government. We have to do that and get the majority there. Let's pick
:41:14. > :41:16.up on that. Damian Green, the Labour Party have rather stolen a march on
:41:17. > :41:21.the Conservatives on the burning issue of the cost of living. Ed
:41:22. > :41:25.Miliband has pledged to freeze energy bills. What have you got?
:41:26. > :41:28.Some people say that George Osborne is considering legislation to
:41:29. > :41:33.increase the minimum wage. That would be dramatic. Should he do it?
:41:34. > :41:38.There are two things, on energy prices specifically, we have set in
:41:39. > :41:45.motion ways people can get the lowest tariff. But it hasn't
:41:46. > :41:49.happened yet, we are still waiting. We are going to make sure that the
:41:50. > :41:52.big six, created by the Labour government, become competitive. We
:41:53. > :41:55.have been lucky and different ways to pay the green levy. What about
:41:56. > :42:01.helping people that are struggling, would you endorse an increase in the
:42:02. > :42:05.minimum wage? We have already taken 10 million people at the bottom end
:42:06. > :42:11.out of tax. The biggest thing we can do for hard`pressed people, at any
:42:12. > :42:15.bit of the population, is to make sure they can get a job. This
:42:16. > :42:19.government has created 1.4 million new private`sector jobs at a time
:42:20. > :42:23.when Labour said austerity would not lead to that. Would you like them to
:42:24. > :42:30.be paid more? Would you increase the minimum wage? That is a matter for
:42:31. > :42:33.the Chancellor, I will leave it to him to take economic decisions.
:42:34. > :42:37.Because we have cut the deficit by a third, because we have created new
:42:38. > :42:40.private`sector jobs, all over the country, not just in marginal
:42:41. > :42:43.seats, we're helping people that are hard pressed to struggle through the
:42:44. > :42:49.recession. With due respect, the cost of living is squeezing people
:42:50. > :42:53.across the board. People are not finding that to be the case. In
:42:54. > :42:57.terms of the energy announcements you have made, with respect, Ed
:42:58. > :43:02.Miliband said at the party conference season what has led to
:43:03. > :43:12.the agenda on that. Labour are not the only problem for you. They are
:43:13. > :43:16.hoping to turn Tory voters to Labour, the way Tony Blair did, but
:43:17. > :43:21.you are going to haemorrhage support to UKIP as well? That is precisely
:43:22. > :43:28.what Tony Blair did. The fact that Ed Miliband has taken Labour so far
:43:29. > :43:35.to the left... O, rubbish. Come on. He has not got anything like the
:43:36. > :43:37.appeal that Tony Blair had. On energy issues, you will find very
:43:38. > :43:43.clearly, as you well know, one of the reasons you are having this knee
:43:44. > :43:48.jerk reaction on energy prices... You think prices will not go up
:43:49. > :43:53.before and after freezes? We'll come back to who is going to vote for who
:43:54. > :43:57.later in the programme. It's one year since a major change was made
:43:58. > :44:00.to our police. This month marks the first birthday of the new Police and
:44:01. > :44:03.Crime Commissioner 's. They took up their posts, pledging to give a
:44:04. > :44:09.voice to the public and ensure the safety of the community and criminal
:44:10. > :44:11.justice. They are bold aims, so have they lived up to their promises and
:44:12. > :44:21.have you noticed any difference? The most radical police reform in
:44:22. > :44:28.half a century took place nearly a year ago. US style Police and Crime
:44:29. > :44:32.Commissioner 's were elected to oversee forces around the country
:44:33. > :44:37.and to give local people a voice about policing in the area.
:44:38. > :44:42.Conservative candidate Katie born won in Sussex. Independent Kevin
:44:43. > :44:47.Hurley's promise of zero tolerance to crimes in Surrey got him elected.
:44:48. > :44:52.And Barnes, another nonpolitical candidate, won in Kent. Do you think
:44:53. > :44:57.you have delivered an election promise us? Yes, I promised to
:44:58. > :45:00.freeze council tax, which I did in the first year. I promised to
:45:01. > :45:06.recruit more special constables, which we are in the process of
:45:07. > :45:09.doing. Also to put any savings we could find into front`line policing,
:45:10. > :45:13.which we have done. Election promises delivered so far, 100
:45:14. > :45:18.uniformed posts, mainly on the street, visible community policing,
:45:19. > :45:23.delivered. A fleet of mobile police stations in the rural areas,
:45:24. > :45:30.delivered. Specials, 100 new volunteers, delivered. Fighting
:45:31. > :45:34.cuts, I am constantly doing that. There was a considerable lack of
:45:35. > :45:39.public interest in the vote a year ago, with the lowest turnout ever
:45:40. > :45:44.for an election in the UK. Do you think members of the public would
:45:45. > :45:47.know who you are? I hope they would. I have visited 71 places since I
:45:48. > :45:54.became commissioner, just talking to local people in the street. I know
:45:55. > :45:58.that they do, everywhere I go in Sussex, somebody will come up to me
:45:59. > :46:01.and say, you are the new Police and Crime Commissioner, I have seen you
:46:02. > :46:07.on the telly. We decided to put that to the test on the streets of
:46:08. > :46:20.Brighton and Hove. Do you know who that is? No. No, I don't. No, I
:46:21. > :46:26.don't. It looks a bit like... It looks like Debra Medon, but it's not
:46:27. > :46:35.her. Is it the Police Commissioner? Do you know who that is? I certainly
:46:36. > :46:43.do, my boss. No. No Have you lost her? The leader of the Green party?
:46:44. > :46:48.It looks like one of those photos they always do, I am happy to help
:46:49. > :46:53.you but my arms are closed. She looks like the Police Commissioner
:46:54. > :46:57.or someone like that. The commissioners were keen to tell us
:46:58. > :47:00.all about their achievements. But both have faced accusations that
:47:01. > :47:05.they have not lived up to their election pledges. Mrs Barnes came
:47:06. > :47:09.under fire for the handling of the recruitment of you Commissioner
:47:10. > :47:17.Paris Brown, forced to resign for her comments on social media.
:47:18. > :47:24.Critics say that Katie Bourne had a vague plan and adhere to go back on
:47:25. > :47:30.a promise not to make cuts to the police. One of the key election aims
:47:31. > :47:33.was the impact on front`line policing. It's hard to see much
:47:34. > :47:39.difference. There is a lot of e`mails and newsletters going out.
:47:40. > :47:42.As to their actual practical impact, their ability to change
:47:43. > :47:49.things, I don't think we have seen much so far. Some of the roll`out of
:47:50. > :47:53.PCSOs, neighbourhood wardens, the expansion of the police specials,
:47:54. > :48:00.that was happening anyway. A lot of activity is being reported, meetings
:48:01. > :48:05.here, consultations there, by PCCs. It's difficult to see how that adds
:48:06. > :48:12.up to a picture of more accountable policing overall. Those initially
:48:13. > :48:17.opposed to the role remain credible. Completely vindicated in the doubts
:48:18. > :48:20.that I and thousands of others had about the need for PCCs, about the
:48:21. > :48:28.value of putting another layer of your receipt in the police. We look
:48:29. > :48:32.for a professional police force. We do not look for a Conservative
:48:33. > :48:41.police force, a Labour police force, even a Green police. We want the
:48:42. > :48:44.forced to do a job, we want it to be properly held to account by a wide
:48:45. > :48:50.range of democratically accountable bodies. One year on, have police
:48:51. > :48:52.commissioners come expensive figureheads with little impact on
:48:53. > :48:57.the public's confidence in the police?
:48:58. > :49:04.Let's hear a little bit more from Katie Bourne, the Police and Crime
:49:05. > :49:09.Commissioner in Sussex. When you were asked if you kept your pledges,
:49:10. > :49:13.what you have achieved, the first thing you said was, yes, you managed
:49:14. > :49:18.to freeze council tax, albeit for only one year and that is what he
:49:19. > :49:33.pledged at the beginning. That is about ?5 on a typical band D
:49:34. > :49:38.property. The cuts, you do not fight against them, and critics say it has
:49:39. > :49:43.led to a drop in response times. Does that if either look as
:49:44. > :49:47.significant any more? I completely refute some of those criticisms. My
:49:48. > :49:52.pledge to the public was I would freeze council tax for the first
:49:53. > :49:54.year in office, which I have done. I have actually opened recruitment in
:49:55. > :50:00.Sussex Police for the first time in over three years. We have recruited
:50:01. > :50:04.80 new police officers. But that is exacted what I said what I said that
:50:05. > :50:08.had been a net loss of 220. It's not an accurate, it is just you lost 300
:50:09. > :50:14.before you recruited 80. Ella Marko we have recruited 80 police
:50:15. > :50:23.officers, investigation officers as well. We have gone out to recruit
:50:24. > :50:25.120 special constables. To date, we have had over 700 completed
:50:26. > :50:29.applications from people across Sussex, which I think is a really
:50:30. > :50:32.good story for the public. Of course, it is going to take time for
:50:33. > :50:36.the officers to get a train before you are actually going to feel the
:50:37. > :50:43.impact on the street. He promised visible and effective neighbourhood
:50:44. > :50:47.policing. The language has been interesting. Do you think they are
:50:48. > :50:51.proper police officers, do you think the public think they are? The
:50:52. > :50:56.public love their PCSOs, they are the heart of the policing teams in
:50:57. > :51:00.Sussex. Alongside the police constable, he and I pledge to keep
:51:01. > :51:07.PCSOs because they know how much it means to the public. They devalue
:51:08. > :51:11.the impact they bring. Not forgetting, we also need police
:51:12. > :51:16.officers with warranted powers. That is why we have recruited an extra 80
:51:17. > :51:22.of them. Ann Barnes made the point of how visible it has been, you said
:51:23. > :51:28.people know who you are wherever you go. Not quite... Somebody will
:51:29. > :51:30.always say, you are the new Police and Crime Commissioner. Visibility
:51:31. > :51:34.and accountability are not the same thing, are they? Just because you
:51:35. > :51:40.are visible, doesn't mean you're doing a good job? They shouldn't be
:51:41. > :51:44.met stub. There are always going to be people out there that do not know
:51:45. > :51:47.who you are, of course. Accountability is a totally
:51:48. > :51:49.different matter. As far as I am concerned, the police are being held
:51:50. > :51:53.to account far more effectively than they were under the police
:51:54. > :51:58.authority. I have a monthly performance and accountability
:51:59. > :52:06.meeting with the Chief Constable, which is webcast online. People can
:52:07. > :52:09.watch it later. Damian Green, is there any evidence at all that
:52:10. > :52:14.switching to Police and Crime Commissioner instead of sticking
:52:15. > :52:18.with the police authorities has improved policing? Yes, the biggest
:52:19. > :52:25.evidence is that crime is falling. It has since 2010, crime is down in
:52:26. > :52:28.Kent over the past three years. The PCC is an important part of the
:52:29. > :52:32.police reform package that led to that. The point people make, of
:52:33. > :52:35.course we are going to have to do it at a time when there is not as much
:52:36. > :52:39.taxpayer money around as there used to be. Even in those circumstances,
:52:40. > :52:45.crime is falling. One of the most significant things that Ann Barnes
:52:46. > :52:48.has done is show that the police are not recording crime properly. She
:52:49. > :52:54.found that one in ten crimes was inaccurately recorded, 20% of crimes
:52:55. > :52:58.wrongly listed as no crime. We can imagine what it is like if you are a
:52:59. > :53:04.rape victim to be told that no crime has been committed. How can we be
:53:05. > :53:12.confident with that? That is the PCC doing a job that we created it for,
:53:13. > :53:15.getting the job done properly. I think Ann Barnes is a good example.
:53:16. > :53:19.She used to be chairman of the police authority. I can guarantee if
:53:20. > :53:22.he went around Kent when she was doing that job, nobly would have
:53:23. > :53:28.heard of her. A lot of people in Kent have now heard of her and a lot
:53:29. > :53:32.of people therefore care more. It was a bit of a straw poll, but she
:53:33. > :53:36.was not very recognisable. Do you think she is recognisable? Does it
:53:37. > :53:42.matter? I always said before the elections, you can spend ?100
:53:43. > :53:46.million just to raise the profile of the person that maybe you should
:53:47. > :53:52.complain to. That really is not necessary. Ann Barnes was known as a
:53:53. > :53:55.chair of the authority to a number of people. Deal with that issue. If
:53:56. > :54:01.that is the issue, that is what you should deal with. You end up with
:54:02. > :54:06.the powers in one political person's hand, Labour, Tory,
:54:07. > :54:10.independent, whatever. Crime was falling under a Labour government
:54:11. > :54:19.which did not have a police and crime commission. I have seen them
:54:20. > :54:23.working on a new road safety programme, fine, but I am sure I
:54:24. > :54:28.could have dealt with Ann on that issue. Would you abolish them? I am
:54:29. > :54:33.not going to get into the game of... Why not? Let me read you a
:54:34. > :54:38.quote. Thank you for bringing that in. Ed Balls hinted at abolition.
:54:39. > :54:41.When we are losing thousands of police officers and police staff,
:54:42. > :54:46.how have we ended up spending more on police commissioners than the
:54:47. > :54:51.other authorities? Does it really make sense? Ed Balls is, as ever,
:54:52. > :54:54.wrong about that. What is your measure of success or failure before
:54:55. > :55:03.you are prepared to say, actually, we should pull the plug? I think
:55:04. > :55:08.what you have to do is see whether they are able to be accountable to
:55:09. > :55:13.the public in a way that the public recognises and is seen to be
:55:14. > :55:18.delivering services, more than they otherwise would have done if it had
:55:19. > :55:22.been under the old setup. How on earth do you manage that? Of course
:55:23. > :55:26.it is difficult. I am not going to say we're going to abolish them, the
:55:27. > :55:31.simple reason is this. If it is going to cost another ?50 million to
:55:32. > :55:35.get rid of them and then re`establish it, I'd rather put that
:55:36. > :55:40.money into the police force. Independent assessments have been
:55:41. > :55:45.done, if I am right, by the House of Commons home affairs select
:55:46. > :55:50.committee. It actually shows that 17 out of the 41 are costing more than
:55:51. > :55:54.the authorities they replaced. This is essentially about the public.
:55:55. > :55:58.Let's bring it back for a final thought about the police. After
:55:59. > :56:01.plebgate, there has been a massive drop in confidence. Can the Police
:56:02. > :56:11.and Crime Commissioner 's counteract that? Their job is to hold the
:56:12. > :56:15.police to account. Also through the websites which people have access
:56:16. > :56:19.to, people now feel that they get more information about the police.
:56:20. > :56:22.When there are rough patches, confidence does drop. But having an
:56:23. > :56:26.elected figure that is responsible for holding the police to account
:56:27. > :56:30.gives us a focus we never had before. Over the long`term, it will
:56:31. > :56:33.increase people's confidence. I think we will need more than the
:56:34. > :56:38.first year to come to a conclusion. Thank you both very much. Andrew
:56:39. > :56:44.Motion, best known for his lyrical poetry and use of language was the
:56:45. > :56:46.poet Laureate. He had some choice words about the government this
:56:47. > :56:50.week, specifically about their planning reforms, which he says is
:56:51. > :56:57.leading to vandalism of the countryside. The Campaign To Protect
:56:58. > :57:01.Rural England, of which he is president, is worried about the next
:57:02. > :57:04.range of reforms. The government is suggesting making it easier to
:57:05. > :57:07.change the use of a building. The same would apply in the countryside,
:57:08. > :57:11.where Barnes about houses could become homes. They say would breathe
:57:12. > :57:16.life into rural communities, but could prove damaging? You suspect
:57:17. > :57:21.there is a problem here. What is the problem of enabling a change of
:57:22. > :57:28.use? A farmer converting an outbuilding into a house? It starts
:57:29. > :57:33.bringing pressure into their on other areas of the community. There
:57:34. > :57:37.have already been changes made to relax the permitted use of buildings
:57:38. > :57:44.without going through planning applications. This is a further
:57:45. > :57:48.change, a further weakening. Indeed, it actually works against the whole
:57:49. > :57:53.localism agenda. It's taking powers away from local authorities. What do
:57:54. > :57:57.you think is going to happen? What I am worried will happen is that you
:57:58. > :58:01.allow housing developer and on those areas and you then have a pressure
:58:02. > :58:05.that, coupled with the demands for housing, particularly in the
:58:06. > :58:09.south`east, you end up with other greenfield sites within those
:58:10. > :58:13.neighbouring areas that say, you have got housing allowed there
:58:14. > :58:18.already, what about this? That starts to become a problem for local
:58:19. > :58:22.authorities. It is one thing for a farmer to convert a barn into a
:58:23. > :58:28.house for their son or daughter, to carry on working on the land. It's
:58:29. > :58:31.another thing for a developer to snap up five or more outbuildings on
:58:32. > :58:36.the same site and create what could turn out to be an inappropriate
:58:37. > :58:39.housing development? It is important to get some development in the
:58:40. > :58:43.countryside, otherwise villages just die and become repositories for
:58:44. > :58:47.people that can afford to live there, no children, no young
:58:48. > :58:49.people. You do have to allow some development. I'd much rather that
:58:50. > :58:55.development be small`scale development, using what is
:58:56. > :58:58.effectively already a Brownfield site that would otherwise become
:58:59. > :59:04.derelict and unsightly, that actually have new housing estates
:59:05. > :59:07.plonked on green fields all over the place with some top`down planning
:59:08. > :59:13.system. I think it is absolutely right, in principle. Do you ignore
:59:14. > :59:21.those concerns that we could in it... End up with inappropriate
:59:22. > :59:24.development? You are less likely to have inappropriate development if
:59:25. > :59:29.you say you cannot develop Brownfield sites. I promised we
:59:30. > :59:33.would come back to who votes for who. We began by talking about how
:59:34. > :59:37.to appeal to different groups. The countryside Alliance poll this week
:59:38. > :59:43.showed only 66% of members would vote Tory now, compared to 90%
:59:44. > :59:49.before the last election. One of the main reasons they are doing is your
:59:50. > :59:52.Government's planning policy. Every time you try to change planning
:59:53. > :59:59.restrictions, everybody that has been an MP will know this, there is
:00:00. > :00:03.anxiety. The new planning agreement allows sensitive development in the
:00:04. > :00:11.countryside. As people see that happening, people will be reassured.
:00:12. > :00:16.That Coastal Alliance are not going to vote Labour? We need to make sure
:00:17. > :00:21.we have affordable housing, that communities are alive and kicking,
:00:22. > :00:26.and you do it in a way that... I would not disagree with having
:00:27. > :00:30.control development, that why take away the restrictions from local
:00:31. > :00:33.councils that can make the decision? We have to bring a round`up of the
:00:34. > :00:45.other political events you might have missed this week.
:00:46. > :00:50.The Government wants councils to relax parking restrictions to
:00:51. > :00:53.encourage shoppers. But new figures show that motorists in Brighton and
:00:54. > :00:56.Hove have been hit with a parking fine every five minutes,
:00:57. > :01:03.contributing to ?11 million parking profit. The former Tory mayor and
:01:04. > :01:13.Mayoress of Swale are being asked to resign after moving 150 miles per
:01:14. > :01:16.way `` away. Kent MP Tracy Crouch welcomes the rise of electric cars
:01:17. > :01:21.but were worried that the quiet engines pose a risk to the elderly
:01:22. > :01:23.and says some drivers are... Amazed they have not yet killed somebody
:01:24. > :01:31.that was drunk, stumbling out into the street. And US Congress
:01:32. > :01:38.contribute to this special relationship between Britain and the
:01:39. > :01:42.US, unveiling a bust of Winston Churchill. My grandfather would have
:01:43. > :01:50.been very proud to think that his head would have been in such a great
:01:51. > :01:55.planet on. `` pantheon. Should you have to live where you are a
:01:56. > :01:57.counsellor? You have to turn up to the meetings by law, so you have to
:01:58. > :02:10.be able to get Thank you for coming, great to see
:02:11. > :02:19.you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's relationship with Unite and other
:02:20. > :02:31.issues all to be discussed in the Week Ahead and we're joined now by
:02:32. > :02:35.the shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna. First I would like to get
:02:36. > :02:37.your reaction to the interview I did earlier with the General Secretary
:02:38. > :02:41.of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. Let's look at what he said. This is
:02:42. > :02:45.a trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all of the
:02:46. > :02:50.demands and the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, are you telling me
:02:51. > :02:53.they are not the conservative mouthpiece in the media? They are
:02:54. > :03:00.laying traps for Ed Miliband and he should not fall into them. Though it
:03:01. > :03:06.is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey denies a lot of the allegations put,
:03:07. > :03:12.but let me be clear in an industrial dispute, the use of aggressive or
:03:13. > :03:16.intimidatory tactics by either side is totally unacceptable. Do you
:03:17. > :03:21.think it is wrong for Unite to send its members to the homes of
:03:22. > :03:25.managers? I don't know what happened in that particular case, but I think
:03:26. > :03:30.you should keep people 's families out of these things and if you are
:03:31. > :03:34.doing something that can upset particularly children, that is a bad
:03:35. > :03:40.thing. I know he denied a number of things you put to him. We now know
:03:41. > :03:45.some of the content of Labour 's own report into what happened at Falkirk
:03:46. > :03:49.and they found all sorts of things - forgery, coercion, trickery and even
:03:50. > :04:02.that their own investigation was being thwarted by Unite. What should
:04:03. > :04:11.Labour do next? I have not read the report. We are told that the latest
:04:12. > :04:14.allegations that have been made is something that the police are
:04:15. > :04:25.looking into so that is not something I think would be
:04:26. > :04:29.appropriate for me to comment on. We learned Labour Party members in the
:04:30. > :04:34.Falkirk constituency have complained to the leader of the Scottish party
:04:35. > :04:45.about a lack of action by the Labour Party on what happened in Falkirk. I
:04:46. > :04:48.am not part of the Scottish party and that is news to me. But the
:04:49. > :04:52.police have indicated they are looking at the new information that
:04:53. > :04:55.has come to light. It is a bit like the 1980s and there was an
:04:56. > :05:01.electrifying moment when Neil Kinnock took on the militant
:05:02. > :05:06.tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take
:05:07. > :05:13.on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an
:05:14. > :05:17.electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for
:05:18. > :05:21.seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the
:05:22. > :05:27.disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk
:05:28. > :05:31.categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying
:05:32. > :05:38.to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.
:05:39. > :05:42.In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had
:05:43. > :05:47.people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is
:05:48. > :05:53.that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from
:05:54. > :05:56.party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced
:05:57. > :06:01.this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we
:06:02. > :06:06.change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 2 th
:06:07. > :06:11.century. The reform of the way in which we connect and our
:06:12. > :06:15.relationship with the union puts us in a good position because we have
:06:16. > :06:26.this relationship between the 3 million working people who ensure
:06:27. > :06:30.our public services function. At Grangemouth INEOS stood up to
:06:31. > :06:37.unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk Labour rolled over to the Unite
:06:38. > :06:45.union. I do not agree with that I'd just explained the reason. I do not
:06:46. > :06:51.think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the
:06:52. > :06:56.basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it
:06:57. > :07:02.after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to
:07:03. > :07:08.send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be
:07:09. > :07:13.secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That
:07:14. > :07:19.constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.
:07:20. > :07:25.This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do
:07:26. > :07:31.not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an
:07:32. > :07:38.ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory
:07:39. > :07:43.suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union
:07:44. > :07:51.members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the
:07:52. > :08:00.facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made On
:08:01. > :08:05.your point I think it is healthy the Conservatives are looking to recruit
:08:06. > :08:13.trade union members. A lot of their rhetoric is very negative in respect
:08:14. > :08:19.of trade unions. If you look at Unison a third of the members vote
:08:20. > :08:23.Conservative. In Unite union some of their members vote Tory. I think
:08:24. > :08:29.trade unions have a lot to bring to our country. It is one of the things
:08:30. > :08:34.many up and down the country will find very frustrating, a lot of the
:08:35. > :08:38.good work that unions do if it gets tarnished with all the negative
:08:39. > :08:44.stuff you see... Unite are working in partnership with GM and the
:08:45. > :08:49.senior management in Ellesmere Port and the government ensured that we
:08:50. > :08:57.kept that plant open. That gets overlooked by all of this. Do you
:08:58. > :09:02.not think the bolshie behaviour from unions are motivated not by
:09:03. > :09:06.strength, but by weakness. Unite know they cannot paralyse the
:09:07. > :09:11.country in the way their forebears used to be able to do. Their
:09:12. > :09:16.penetration rates in the private sector is 11%. The union movement is
:09:17. > :09:21.weaker than it was before I was born. Some of that truck killers and
:09:22. > :09:26.bad behaviour either death spasms of their movement rather than something
:09:27. > :09:35.that is motivated by the fact they can't paralyse the country. You have
:09:36. > :09:40.two increase the membership. But there is an issue about the public
:09:41. > :09:44.perception of trade unions. It is right they should be a voice of
:09:45. > :09:50.protest and anger and stand up for their members when it is necessary.
:09:51. > :09:56.But people join unions for their aspiration. The unions do a lot so
:09:57. > :10:00.that people can move up in their workplace. That profile needs to
:10:01. > :10:08.come across as strongly as the protest part. I want to move on to
:10:09. > :10:15.business. The head of the CBI has said that Labour's pro-enterprise
:10:16. > :10:20.credentials have suffered a setback. He said that in relation to Ed
:10:21. > :10:25.Miliband's speech. I was on the radio earlier. If you look at the
:10:26. > :10:29.things in the speech, some of that was going to be uncomfortable for
:10:30. > :10:33.some of the countries and they tend to be companies represented by the
:10:34. > :10:40.CBI, like energy companies, like land developers, a lot of the big
:10:41. > :10:47.business lose out from is not doing the corporate tax cut. The energy
:10:48. > :10:52.freeze is going to help over 2. million businesses that have been
:10:53. > :10:56.hit by high energy bills. The business community has said we had
:10:57. > :11:01.to bring the public sector finances back into balance. That is why we
:11:02. > :11:08.decided to switch the money being used to reduce corporation tax and
:11:09. > :11:12.use that to help a much greater variety of businesses by doing a
:11:13. > :11:21.business rate cut. It is all pro enterprise. They also seem to be
:11:22. > :11:27.critical of your new idea of a living wage. They are not critical.
:11:28. > :11:33.It would not be compulsory, but there would be a tax credit if they
:11:34. > :11:38.paid it. It is good for business because if people are earning more
:11:39. > :11:43.than they are more productive. It is good for the employee and good for
:11:44. > :11:51.us as well because it means we are not having to subsidise people to be
:11:52. > :11:58.paid to the extent we have with tax credits and benefits. Everybody
:11:59. > :12:05.benefits from this. We all know after 2009 we need to have bold
:12:06. > :12:13.change. Does Labour paid a living wage? We have got over 20 of our
:12:14. > :12:19.councils signed up to doing so and we have made commitments in respect
:12:20. > :12:28.to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party pay it? I believe so. Would it not
:12:29. > :12:41.be worth checking? Do you get a living wage? Yes, of course I do. I
:12:42. > :12:47.understand we paid a living wage. What does it feel like for Tristram
:12:48. > :12:54.Hunt who has taken over your mantle as Labour's next leader? Is that a
:12:55. > :12:59.relieved or are you angry? He is one of my best friends and at the end of
:13:00. > :13:03.the day if we got obsessed with this soap opera stuff we would never get
:13:04. > :13:12.anything done and we are working together to make sure we have got
:13:13. > :13:19.the right skills in our workforce. That is all for today. The daily
:13:20. > :13:27.politics is on all week. I will be here again next weekend at 12:2 pm
:13:28. > :13:29.after the Remembrance Day service at the Cenotaph. Remember if it is
:13:30. > :13:58.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Planet Earth - it's unique.
:13:59. > :14:03.It has life. To understand why, we're going to
:14:04. > :14:11.build a planet...up there. There were the objects that were
:14:12. > :14:14.making the Earth. We're now weightless.
:14:15. > :14:17.That's how our planet started. Your arms are a little bit long
:14:18. > :14:20.Is that as small as they go? This is like every shopping trip
:14:21. > :14:24.I've ever been on.