10/11/2013

:00:34. > :00:40.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

:00:41. > :00:45.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls

:00:46. > :00:50.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

:00:51. > :00:53.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

:00:54. > :00:58.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

:00:59. > :01:06.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

:01:07. > :01:09.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

:01:10. > :01:20.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

:01:21. > :01:23.some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the guys.

:01:24. > :01:27.And in the South East. Six months after UKIP's breakthrough

:01:28. > :01:30.in the local elections in Kent and West Sussex, will it really be a

:01:31. > :01:32.springboard for future success in national politics?

:01:33. > :01:46.row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their

:01:47. > :01:52.success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan

:01:53. > :01:57.Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick

:01:58. > :02:01.Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in

:02:02. > :02:11.Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a

:02:12. > :02:14.breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go

:02:15. > :02:17.far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has

:02:18. > :02:20.been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at

:02:21. > :02:23.a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this

:02:24. > :02:28.to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in

:02:29. > :02:36.the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying

:02:37. > :02:44.again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We

:02:45. > :02:48.will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind

:02:49. > :02:55.solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it

:02:56. > :03:00.will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with

:03:01. > :03:03.Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:04. > :03:08.looking the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:09. > :03:14.interests of the whole world, including

:03:15. > :03:15.interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic

:03:16. > :03:22.agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will

:03:23. > :03:26.threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the

:03:27. > :03:30.future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems

:03:31. > :03:36.future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the

:03:37. > :03:49.Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took

:03:50. > :03:56.the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough

:03:57. > :04:00.line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon I

:04:01. > :04:05.am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the

:04:06. > :04:10.talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on

:04:11. > :04:19.Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.

:04:20. > :04:26.Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge

:04:27. > :04:32.saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this

:04:33. > :04:39.year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The

:04:40. > :04:45.next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch

:04:46. > :04:50.will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is

:04:51. > :05:00.still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal

:05:01. > :05:05.at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to

:05:06. > :05:16.be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They

:05:17. > :05:24.cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium

:05:25. > :05:31.heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power

:05:32. > :05:37.programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is

:05:38. > :05:44.an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be

:05:45. > :05:50.impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French

:05:51. > :05:56.blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel

:05:57. > :06:01.but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and

:06:02. > :06:05.Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a

:06:06. > :06:16.story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with

:06:17. > :06:22.nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more

:06:23. > :06:25.against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite

:06:26. > :06:30.MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom

:06:31. > :06:33.of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank

:06:34. > :06:42.clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this

:06:43. > :06:46.week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival

:06:47. > :06:51.day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament

:06:52. > :06:56.with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the

:06:57. > :07:02.Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your

:07:03. > :07:06.colleagues save time and again you talk about initiatives and what you

:07:07. > :07:12.are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union

:07:13. > :07:17.is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I

:07:18. > :07:22.am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any

:07:23. > :07:27.criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.

:07:28. > :07:33.Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several

:07:34. > :07:36.states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real

:07:37. > :07:41.opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would

:07:42. > :07:50.want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to

:07:51. > :07:57.you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at

:07:58. > :08:01.the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we

:08:02. > :08:06.get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between

:08:07. > :08:13.Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered

:08:14. > :08:19.blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no

:08:20. > :08:22.difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match

:08:23. > :08:28.Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing

:08:29. > :08:33.that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in

:08:34. > :08:37.some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say

:08:38. > :08:41.that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European

:08:42. > :08:49.elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can

:08:50. > :08:54.win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a

:08:55. > :09:00.doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in

:09:01. > :09:04.Edinburgh was not that friendly Edinburgh is not everything in

:09:05. > :09:09.Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those

:09:10. > :09:15.elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You

:09:16. > :09:18.might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is

:09:19. > :09:25.likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial

:09:26. > :09:32.by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full

:09:33. > :09:39.season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a

:09:40. > :09:45.different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,

:09:46. > :09:50.actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with

:09:51. > :09:55.her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep

:09:56. > :10:01.and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You

:10:02. > :10:09.can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee

:10:10. > :10:12.that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans

:10:13. > :10:20.exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of

:10:21. > :10:28.Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk

:10:29. > :10:35.whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy

:10:36. > :10:43.arguments put around about this We will go on doing business - go on

:10:44. > :10:46.doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do

:10:47. > :10:56.trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs The

:10:57. > :11:01.head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British

:11:02. > :11:06.business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of

:11:07. > :11:15.jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With

:11:16. > :11:23.Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say

:11:24. > :11:29.what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future

:11:30. > :11:34.investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the

:11:35. > :11:38.plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be

:11:39. > :11:42.careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they

:11:43. > :11:48.may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take

:11:49. > :11:54.that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now

:11:55. > :11:58.they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority

:11:59. > :12:02.saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.

:12:03. > :12:08.The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and

:12:09. > :12:13.we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There

:12:14. > :12:17.is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,

:12:18. > :12:23.manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the

:12:24. > :12:31.costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at

:12:32. > :12:39.the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins

:12:40. > :12:43.with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,

:12:44. > :12:52.most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are

:12:53. > :12:57.going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75, the circumstances were exactly the

:12:58. > :13:00.same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very

:13:01. > :13:04.little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to

:13:05. > :13:12.stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.

:13:13. > :13:16.We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.

:13:17. > :13:20.These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly

:13:21. > :13:24.enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they

:13:25. > :13:31.vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I

:13:32. > :13:35.am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,

:13:36. > :13:45.we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance

:13:46. > :14:05.of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small

:14:06. > :14:08.publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most

:14:09. > :14:15.important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,

:14:16. > :14:19.there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party

:14:20. > :14:26.issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to

:14:27. > :14:29.this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is

:14:30. > :14:42.to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know

:14:43. > :14:54.that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the

:14:55. > :15:04.risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that

:15:05. > :15:13.verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They

:15:14. > :15:18.can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After

:15:19. > :15:23.these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr

:15:24. > :15:33.Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is

:15:34. > :15:38.scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young

:15:39. > :15:42.British workers between 16 and 4 without work. A lot of them want

:15:43. > :15:48.work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled

:15:49. > :15:55.labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this

:15:56. > :16:01.week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think

:16:02. > :16:06.that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of

:16:07. > :16:09.Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the

:16:10. > :16:13.county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven

:16:14. > :16:17.seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that

:16:18. > :16:21.audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is

:16:22. > :16:26.put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it

:16:27. > :16:29.doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure

:16:30. > :16:34.doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which

:16:35. > :16:38.will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing

:16:39. > :16:42.completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of

:16:43. > :16:47.people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to

:16:48. > :16:51.Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose

:16:52. > :16:53.vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be

:16:54. > :16:56.determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would

:16:57. > :17:01.be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if

:17:02. > :17:04.a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to

:17:05. > :17:09.happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will

:17:10. > :17:13.happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up If

:17:14. > :17:18.you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a

:17:19. > :17:22.safety net of a benefits system claim child allowance for your kids

:17:23. > :17:27.in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments

:17:28. > :17:31.already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come

:17:32. > :17:34.or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a

:17:35. > :17:37.major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.

:17:38. > :17:42.Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for

:17:43. > :17:45.Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and

:17:46. > :17:48.complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the

:17:49. > :17:53.Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week

:17:54. > :17:56.won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he

:17:57. > :18:01.focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on

:18:02. > :18:09.energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be

:18:10. > :18:13.about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we

:18:14. > :18:21.show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a

:18:22. > :18:27.debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you

:18:28. > :18:33.want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an

:18:34. > :18:37.easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the

:18:38. > :18:42.side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer

:18:43. > :18:47.charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires

:18:48. > :18:51.wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the

:18:52. > :18:54.millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember

:18:55. > :18:58.it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom

:18:59. > :19:07.tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,

:19:08. > :19:14.that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a

:19:15. > :19:20.debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,

:19:21. > :19:27.joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.

:19:28. > :19:32.Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after

:19:33. > :19:36.their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that

:19:37. > :19:40.reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room

:19:41. > :19:44.tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What

:19:45. > :19:48.it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting

:19:49. > :19:54.lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people

:19:55. > :19:58.who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax so

:19:59. > :20:01.basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant

:20:02. > :20:05.in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,

:20:06. > :20:09.you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.

:20:10. > :20:13.But actually, something like 96 of the people who're going to be hit by

:20:14. > :20:16.the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move

:20:17. > :20:20.into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my

:20:21. > :20:26.constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700

:20:27. > :20:31.a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence

:20:32. > :20:35.of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided

:20:36. > :20:39.to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?

:20:40. > :20:45.11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the

:20:46. > :20:49.way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's

:20:50. > :20:54.not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils

:20:55. > :20:58.provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,0 0

:20:59. > :21:02.affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a

:21:03. > :21:06.job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course

:21:07. > :21:10.the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always

:21:11. > :21:14.looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good

:21:15. > :21:18.thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it s

:21:19. > :21:23.low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on

:21:24. > :21:27.the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved

:21:28. > :21:31.away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from

:21:32. > :21:35.your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are

:21:36. > :21:39.and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got

:21:40. > :21:44.to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair

:21:45. > :21:47.The Government that was commissioning independent research

:21:48. > :21:51.on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on

:21:52. > :21:54.the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking

:21:55. > :21:58.about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the

:21:59. > :22:00.independent research, that independent investigation before

:22:01. > :22:05.determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have

:22:06. > :22:08.waited until they'd have done their independent research before they

:22:09. > :22:14.bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which

:22:15. > :22:19.is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What

:22:20. > :22:22.they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people

:22:23. > :22:26.going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the

:22:27. > :22:30.bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations

:22:31. > :22:33.would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which

:22:34. > :22:37.haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they

:22:38. > :22:41.introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the

:22:42. > :22:44.evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a

:22:45. > :22:48.terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the

:22:49. > :22:53.people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It

:22:54. > :22:57.is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is

:22:58. > :23:03.people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them

:23:04. > :23:07.to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed

:23:08. > :23:10.that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a

:23:11. > :23:14.majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare

:23:15. > :23:18.issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see

:23:19. > :23:22.people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'

:23:23. > :23:27.expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory

:23:28. > :23:30.jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed

:23:31. > :23:34.for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,

:23:35. > :23:38.and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a

:23:39. > :23:43.compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on

:23:44. > :23:47.welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is

:23:48. > :23:50.people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the

:23:51. > :23:55.richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel

:23:56. > :24:00.allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you

:24:01. > :24:04.don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid

:24:05. > :24:09.said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not

:24:10. > :24:15.yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not

:24:16. > :24:18.convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and

:24:19. > :24:23.explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,

:24:24. > :24:26.for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the

:24:27. > :24:29.Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to

:24:30. > :24:35.people in this country, we do think that there should be that

:24:36. > :24:37.tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be

:24:38. > :24:43.offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our

:24:44. > :24:48.case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as

:24:49. > :24:51.popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.

:24:52. > :24:56.Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the

:24:57. > :25:00.latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten

:25:01. > :25:04.worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly

:25:05. > :25:08.opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political

:25:09. > :25:12.commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since

:25:13. > :25:20.Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New

:25:21. > :25:22.Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won

:25:23. > :25:25.their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal

:25:26. > :25:30.Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In

:25:31. > :25:36.1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council

:25:37. > :25:42.seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in

:25:43. > :25:47.the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the

:25:48. > :25:50.third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now

:25:51. > :25:55.saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,

:25:56. > :25:59.Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are

:26:00. > :26:02.average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them

:26:03. > :26:08.when the economy starts to grow Well, I've just said to you, I'm not

:26:09. > :26:11.a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting

:26:12. > :26:14.policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what

:26:15. > :26:19.they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the

:26:20. > :26:23.plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we

:26:24. > :26:28.have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now

:26:29. > :26:32.starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask

:26:33. > :26:36.you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to

:26:37. > :26:40.no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the

:26:41. > :26:44.economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living

:26:45. > :26:47.standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth

:26:48. > :26:51.What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the

:26:52. > :26:54.economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will

:26:55. > :26:58.recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too

:26:59. > :27:03.long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely

:27:04. > :27:06.right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they

:27:07. > :27:11.are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are

:27:12. > :27:16.right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next

:27:17. > :27:20.year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of

:27:21. > :27:25.David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen

:27:26. > :27:29.slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You

:27:30. > :27:33.will know that the broader measurement, real household

:27:34. > :27:36.disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything

:27:37. > :27:42.into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say

:27:43. > :27:47.where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that

:27:48. > :27:51.happens, what is your next line There is a set of arguments about

:27:52. > :27:56.living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems

:27:57. > :28:00.that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I

:28:01. > :28:05.can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other

:28:06. > :28:10.question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed

:28:11. > :28:15.Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks

:28:16. > :28:20.like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will

:28:21. > :28:23.a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign

:28:24. > :28:28.up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter

:28:29. > :28:31.does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the

:28:32. > :28:36.newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My

:28:37. > :28:39.question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do

:28:40. > :28:43.with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the

:28:44. > :28:46.wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The

:28:47. > :28:50.newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,

:28:51. > :28:56.Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are

:28:57. > :28:59.setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it

:29:00. > :29:04.is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,

:29:05. > :29:07.we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is

:29:08. > :29:11.that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really

:29:12. > :29:16.turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll

:29:17. > :29:19.sort things out, leave it to us then they have sorted things out but

:29:20. > :29:24.a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is

:29:25. > :29:27.check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent

:29:28. > :29:31.system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee

:29:32. > :29:34.things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that

:29:35. > :29:39.That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't

:29:40. > :29:46.force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by

:29:47. > :29:50.Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick

:29:51. > :29:53.with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution

:29:54. > :29:57.or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been

:29:58. > :30:03.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43

:30:04. > :30:08.years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent

:30:09. > :30:25.Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We

:30:26. > :30:39.have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What

:30:40. > :30:47.do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and

:30:48. > :30:59.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.

:31:00. > :31:13.I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your

:31:14. > :31:19.mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men

:31:20. > :31:33.get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.

:31:34. > :31:42.Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay

:31:43. > :31:47.or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page

:31:48. > :31:54.three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top

:31:55. > :32:00.on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in

:32:01. > :32:10.favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What

:32:11. > :32:13.is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the

:32:14. > :32:18.newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is

:32:19. > :32:27.degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it

:32:28. > :32:41.Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a

:32:42. > :32:46.shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do

:32:47. > :32:55.something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It

:32:56. > :33:01.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against

:33:02. > :33:06.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.

:33:07. > :33:13.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby

:33:14. > :33:24.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up

:33:25. > :33:34.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong

:33:35. > :33:41.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page

:33:42. > :33:51.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged

:33:52. > :33:57.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I

:33:58. > :34:04.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?

:34:05. > :34:13.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not

:34:14. > :34:22.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down

:34:23. > :34:28.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You

:34:29. > :34:33.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I

:34:34. > :34:39.have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since

:34:40. > :34:51.the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think

:34:52. > :34:57.there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from

:34:58. > :35:00.outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked

:35:01. > :35:04.yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their

:35:05. > :35:09.knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to

:35:10. > :35:19.be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the

:35:20. > :35:24.circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s

:35:25. > :35:29.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their

:35:30. > :35:35.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people

:35:36. > :35:41.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not

:35:42. > :35:49.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is

:35:50. > :35:57.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to

:35:58. > :36:02.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have

:36:03. > :36:09.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been

:36:10. > :36:14.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a

:36:15. > :36:20.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not

:36:21. > :36:24.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement

:36:25. > :36:31.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being

:36:32. > :36:37.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?

:36:38. > :36:45.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not

:36:46. > :36:51.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as

:36:52. > :36:55.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as

:36:56. > :37:04.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be

:37:05. > :37:09.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should

:37:10. > :37:12.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,

:37:13. > :37:20.which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in

:37:21. > :37:23.this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just

:37:24. > :37:25.over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the campaign for an

:37:26. > :37:36.English I'm Natalie Graham and this is the

:37:37. > :37:39.Sunday Politics in the South East. Coming up later, Ed Miliband

:37:40. > :37:42.launches an attack on the Wonga Economy so what does that mean for

:37:43. > :37:48.places like Medway which has the greatest concentration of payday

:37:49. > :37:52.lenders in the whole country? Joining me in the studio today to

:37:53. > :37:54.discuss that and other topics is Paul Carter, the Conservative leader

:37:55. > :37:58.of Kent County Council and Janice Atkinson, a UKIP candidate for next

:37:59. > :38:04.year's European elections in the South East. Welcome to you both.

:38:05. > :38:07.Now, don't drink and... Well, we can all complete that important piece of

:38:08. > :38:10.safety advice, but it's been reported that councillors in West

:38:11. > :38:14.Sussex have been advised by the council not to drink and tweet just

:38:15. > :38:19.in case they say something on social media they later regret. Is that

:38:20. > :38:23.sound advice? Or a little too much management of our local politicians'

:38:24. > :38:34.engagement with the public? Well, Janice, you tweet, how careful are

:38:35. > :38:39.you? Have you ever type something in and said, I am not going to send

:38:40. > :38:47.that? No, because I always have a rule. Never drink and tweet, sent an

:38:48. > :38:51.e`mail or do Facebook. It is a great medium for getting across our

:38:52. > :38:56.points, our points on politics, engaging with journalists. You have

:38:57. > :39:03.got to be careful. Journalists and your political opponents will be

:39:04. > :39:08.watching for everything for you to say to trip up. You have to be

:39:09. > :39:13.careful, but the good thing is, you only have 140 characters. Never

:39:14. > :39:19.drink and do it, ever! Do we have to advise our councillors, should they

:39:20. > :39:25.not know that already? I think so, I do not use Twitter, I survive

:39:26. > :39:28.without it, others do a lot of tweeting and nobody yet on the

:39:29. > :39:33.Conservative benches at County Hall has got themselves into trouble. The

:39:34. > :39:39.Freedom of information act does a good job on opening up our e`mail

:39:40. > :39:45.accounts to the world to see on any issues. We are pretty open and

:39:46. > :39:48.transparent and regulation encourages that and rightly so.

:39:49. > :39:51.Now, it's six months since the local election results which changed the

:39:52. > :39:55.political landscape across the south east. For the first time UKIP, which

:39:56. > :39:58.had been a minor force until then, took a huge 37 council seats across

:39:59. > :40:02.the region. It made them the official opposition in both Kent and

:40:03. > :40:03.West Sussex. So, what has their record in local government

:40:04. > :40:09.since those results? And can they really use it as they'd like to, as

:40:10. > :40:12.a springboard towards even greater success at the general election? We

:40:13. > :40:22.sent Bhavani Vadde to Thanet in Kent where UKIP got their best results in

:40:23. > :40:28.the country. # Purple rain, purple rain.

:40:29. > :40:33.It was a sea of blue that saw ways of purple crashing in on the South

:40:34. > :40:43.East's political scene. You can's `` UKIP's results meant they became the

:40:44. > :40:51.biggest opposition in Kent and West Sussex.

:40:52. > :40:56.The party grabbed the media's attention. But, as they say,

:40:57. > :41:01.today's headlines become tomorrow's chip paper. Six months on, is UKIP

:41:02. > :41:08.proving that Ron? What do people think at this Ramsgate chip shop

:41:09. > :41:11.about the impact of the new UKIP councillors on local politics? I

:41:12. > :41:14.can't say I have noticed a great deal of difference. The thing that

:41:15. > :41:19.will be noticed is the way they are making the other politicians who run

:41:20. > :41:24.the country a more attention to what they are trying to do on immigration

:41:25. > :41:30.and various other things. I do not have a clue who UKIP are but I am

:41:31. > :41:34.always busy working. UKIP's strongest victory in the south`east

:41:35. > :41:36.was inside it. The party took seven out of eight seats in this district

:41:37. > :41:43.while Labour's won the remainder one. Because of their stance on

:41:44. > :41:47.immigration, people are alienated and they feel they cannot get in

:41:48. > :41:50.touch with them. People who may have come to this country who may need

:41:51. > :41:54.help getting into their local primary school, for example, they do

:41:55. > :41:59.not like they can contact their UKIP counsellor so I am being contacted

:42:00. > :42:04.by them. I am eating up casework which I am happy to do but this is

:42:05. > :42:08.the problem. There is a large community in Thanet which are not

:42:09. > :42:13.being representative by their local councillors. There is greater UKIP

:42:14. > :42:18.residents in Kent suddenly were asked in the country. So how have

:42:19. > :42:23.they performed so far? The group has a good attendance record since May.

:42:24. > :42:29.They were present at 85% of beatings they were expected to be at. So far

:42:30. > :42:39.they have `` 85% of meetings. So far they have failed to table in

:42:40. > :42:43.emotions. `` any notions. A keen observer of local government

:42:44. > :42:50.believes that UKIP has a piecemeal approach. They are not a whipped

:42:51. > :42:55.group, so within the group, individual councillors make look at

:42:56. > :42:59.things differently to their colleagues. So they are not

:43:00. > :43:06.particularly cohesive as an opposition force. One of the main

:43:07. > :43:10.reasons is a manifesto which was very nationally focused, they have

:43:11. > :43:13.come to the council without having any real engagement or experience of

:43:14. > :43:24.having a counsellor `` being a councillor, or voting on policies on

:43:25. > :43:29.schools or social care, which is key to local residents. One reason for

:43:30. > :43:34.UKIP's apparent low profile could be the lack of experience. Most of its

:43:35. > :43:39.councillors are relatively new to politics. Only three have prior

:43:40. > :43:41.experience of local councils. So will be party have enough

:43:42. > :43:45.high`calibre candidates to draw from the next general election when they

:43:46. > :43:52.plan to contest every constituency in the country? It is a disgrace, a

:43:53. > :43:57.disgrace. The spotlight on the party has already thrown up a number of

:43:58. > :44:03.embarrassing controversies. MEP Godfrey Bloom was sacked from UKIP

:44:04. > :44:07.after joking that a group of female activists were sluts. Before his

:44:08. > :44:14.election, Martin Heal said he regretted the aim and active matter

:44:15. > :44:18.`` member of the National front in the 1970s. And Jeffrey Clark was

:44:19. > :44:24.suspended after claiming that unborn babies with Downs syndrome should be

:44:25. > :44:27.compulsorily aborted. I do not think their performance in local

:44:28. > :44:29.government is going to be a big factor in their performance in the

:44:30. > :44:33.general election. What will matter will be the performance of their

:44:34. > :44:38.leadership team and particularly Nigel Harwich, and whether or not ``

:44:39. > :44:47.Nigel Franche, and whether or not they pick people who can do well or

:44:48. > :44:54.they make their usual mistake of picking nutters. Six months ago, the

:44:55. > :44:59.impact of UKIP was felt across the region but it seems they are yet to

:45:00. > :45:03.capitalise on that. While the party `` will the party be a serious force

:45:04. > :45:09.in politics or will its power in the next general election be limited to

:45:10. > :45:12.splitting the force on the right and undermining the Tories?

:45:13. > :45:15.We'll talk about the threat to the right ring vote with Paul in a

:45:16. > :45:18.moment. First let's deal with perhaps the most serious accusation

:45:19. > :45:21.in Bhavani's report, that your party isn't representing the people of

:45:22. > :45:25.Kent because you've alienated so many of them. They do not feel they

:45:26. > :45:29.can approach their councillors because of the language that has

:45:30. > :45:35.been used. I do not understand that. We'll go be made that point in the

:45:36. > :45:43.report. But he did not find any. It is just the Labour politician

:45:44. > :45:46.accusing UKIP. You must have heard this accusation before. We represent

:45:47. > :45:54.everyone, everyone should feel copped a ball coming to us, ``

:45:55. > :45:57.comfortable coming to us, whether he is alluding to immigrants, they

:45:58. > :46:05.should feel confident. But when people like Nigel Harwich talk about

:46:06. > :46:14.things like Romanian criminal gangs come into the country... Let's talk

:46:15. > :46:20.about that, 92% of ATM criminal crime is done by Romanian gangs. We

:46:21. > :46:24.are talking about that language, that alienate a lot of people on the

:46:25. > :46:32.local level. I do not accept it. What about the other accusation,

:46:33. > :46:40.that you do not do any emotions. I am not on the council, I am here to

:46:41. > :46:43.talk about Europe. There is an accusation that you do not have a

:46:44. > :46:54.cohesive party strategy, that applies nationally as well. Do you

:46:55. > :46:58.mean a whipping system? We take the view that one size does not fit all.

:46:59. > :47:03.If in one ward they have issues with schools or roads, it does not

:47:04. > :47:07.translate into the next ward. Especially in Kent, East Kent and

:47:08. > :47:12.West Kent are very different. The danger is when it comes to European

:47:13. > :47:20.elections, people are not sure what your party stand for. We have a full

:47:21. > :47:23.manifesto. That is not coming through at local level. If it is not

:47:24. > :47:31.coming to add local level now, that could damage your electoral

:47:32. > :47:36.prospects. We stood on a local manifesto, we will have a full

:47:37. > :47:40.manifesto for the European and 2015 elections. But people are not sure

:47:41. > :47:44.what you stand for on specific issues. They will do, we will have a

:47:45. > :47:52.full and investors. But so far they do not. But we do, have a manifesto.

:47:53. > :48:00.In Europe, you are accused of being a lazy party. But we do not go there

:48:01. > :48:04.to tweak legislation, we say, we do not believe any legislation should

:48:05. > :48:14.come down from Europe. We go there and vote no, we do not fit their

:48:15. > :48:24.tweaking and say that things should be voted on, 84% of legislation

:48:25. > :48:30.comes from Europe. So we say no. That quote from Tim Luckhurst, the

:48:31. > :48:35.problem you have got is that you do not have any high`calibre halibut,

:48:36. > :48:42.and then `` can and do it, and therefore you will end up selecting

:48:43. > :48:52.nutters, his quote was. He would say that. We have 330 applicants to the

:48:53. > :48:56.seat which was narrowed down, I went to that process and I have also been

:48:57. > :49:02.to the Conservative process and it was very vigorous. We have got

:49:03. > :49:06.growing pains as a growing party. We are going to stand a full slate of

:49:07. > :49:13.candidates. We have still got people from the old party but we are the

:49:14. > :49:18.only party who do not allow people in from the BNP or the National

:49:19. > :49:26.front. Labour do, they have got people who used to be BNP labours.

:49:27. > :49:29.`` councillors. How concerned are you about the further damage this

:49:30. > :49:36.party can do at the next election? The most difficult days in the last

:49:37. > :49:39.few years that I have experienced in politics, UKIP did better than was

:49:40. > :49:45.anticipated in the south`east particularly in Kent and Essex. We

:49:46. > :49:49.are working alongside UKIP is the major opposition party, they were

:49:50. > :49:52.enormously winded and quite shocked when some of the candidates were

:49:53. > :49:54.enormously winded and quite shocked when some of the candidates woke up

:49:55. > :49:57.to being county councillors. They have been enormously impressed by

:49:58. > :50:02.what we do and carry out at County Hall in both the administration and

:50:03. > :50:07.the context of the other services that we run. But when it comes to

:50:08. > :50:10.national and European politics, which Janice is concerned about, how

:50:11. > :50:16.much does it concern you when you hear the language in your party

:50:17. > :50:22.changing when David Cameron talks about ways is in support of the EU?

:50:23. > :50:25.Ed Miliband has accused your party of navel`gazing, that becomes a

:50:26. > :50:30.destruction and its split the vote because people go to UKIP. It is a

:50:31. > :50:34.big threat, we have the European elections coming up in June next

:50:35. > :50:38.year. That is going to be a massive test. I think the issues at the

:50:39. > :50:44.moment our immigration and our future in Europe. I think David

:50:45. > :50:50.Cameron and the conservative National party has got to start

:50:51. > :50:56.articulating what a re`negotiated arrangement looks like within the

:50:57. > :50:59.European community, with our friends in the European Community because we

:51:00. > :51:09.need to know. Personally I am on the fence, I neither am a Eurosceptic or

:51:10. > :51:14.a Europhile, I can see problems. Let's have a good debate and start

:51:15. > :51:17.that now. I don't Janice would love to start that now but we will have

:51:18. > :51:21.to live that now `` leave it there! First it was the Big Six electricity

:51:22. > :51:24.firms, then the water companies, and now Ed Miliband has set his sights

:51:25. > :51:28.on the Wonga Economy. That's the payday lenders who add to what he

:51:29. > :51:31.calls the cost of living crisis facing many families. Medway in Kent

:51:32. > :51:35.has the greatest concentration of such companies in the country. So,

:51:36. > :51:38.are they a dangerous force which, as the Labour leader says, are running

:51:39. > :51:40.riot through our communities, or companies that offer an important

:51:41. > :51:45.service to people in need of short`term loans? Earlier this week,

:51:46. > :51:48.MPs on a House of Commons Select Committee questioned the bosses of

:51:49. > :51:56.some of the biggest payday lenders, including Wonga. Do you think that

:51:57. > :52:04.your charges are extortionate? You are a rapacious organisation buys

:52:05. > :52:08.Mac no, we do not accept that. The product is used moderately by most

:52:09. > :52:13.people, and competitive market of those people traditionally using

:52:14. > :52:17.overdrafts and credit cards. What is your interest rate when people go

:52:18. > :52:23.over the period of time, the overdraft equivalent? The

:52:24. > :52:32.unauthorised overdraft charges... How much is that? If you borrow

:52:33. > :52:39.?100, over 30 days, it is ?115. If you borrow from Wonga, it is ?37.

:52:40. > :52:43.Our business loans to people who can pay us back, that is how we make our

:52:44. > :52:47.money. The vast majority of people pay as back on time but we are

:52:48. > :52:52.lending to vast amount of people small forms of credit. That compares

:52:53. > :52:57.favourably to credit cards and banks. We're joined in the studio by

:52:58. > :53:00.Councillor Vince Maple. Vince is a Labour councillor in Medway. It was

:53:01. > :53:03.his party's initiative that brought about a ban on payday loan companies

:53:04. > :53:07.advertising on council websites. You've taken some action, but you're

:53:08. > :53:10.limited in what you can do? That is right. We have seen over the last

:53:11. > :53:15.two years a fairly cross`party approach to this in Medway.

:53:16. > :53:19.Councillors have all been frustrated in all`party administrations by

:53:20. > :53:24.issues like the planning law which means we have no power to say, we

:53:25. > :53:27.have got too many of these shops in our high street. We have seen

:53:28. > :53:33.evidence from people like the CLB who have been shocking with the

:53:34. > :53:36.levels of debt that people have and the link to payday lenders,

:53:37. > :53:41.particularly those on our high streets, who I have been campaigning

:53:42. > :53:46.very hard against. It is not just about saying payday lenders are bad.

:53:47. > :53:49.It is also saying, what is the community alternative? That is where

:53:50. > :53:52.credit unions are critical to the debate. That is one of the things

:53:53. > :53:58.you would like, and I know Ed Miliband would like to take money,

:53:59. > :54:01.tax the companies and spend it on publicly funded alternatives like

:54:02. > :54:05.credit unions. You also want greater powers for local authorities so they

:54:06. > :54:12.can stop the shops opening. That is right. We have seized the word

:54:13. > :54:16.localism banded about more than ever recently, but local councillors, we

:54:17. > :54:23.are representatives of our community, we are powerless at the

:54:24. > :54:27.moment. We need to see big changes in planning laws to say it should be

:54:28. > :54:31.local representatives elected by the community to form what the high

:54:32. > :54:41.street and town centre looks like. All Carter, do you support the push

:54:42. > :54:45.for greater powers locally? I think there should be national

:54:46. > :54:50.localisation `` regulation, encouraging credit unions to

:54:51. > :54:52.flourish where possible. These payday loan companies do fulfil a

:54:53. > :54:58.function but the track record of people getting more and more into

:54:59. > :55:05.debt and getting into all sorts of financial problems built on top of

:55:06. > :55:09.each other and escalating, it needs to have limits. The sister stick

:55:10. > :55:14.from the citizens advice bureau is interesting, clearly when most

:55:15. > :55:19.people are feeling poorer in these difficult times with benefit

:55:20. > :55:26.reductions and income reductions, there needs to be sensible, national

:55:27. > :55:30.regulation and the preference for establishing good credit unions that

:55:31. > :55:33.can lend money responsibly at affordable rates. Ed Miliband says

:55:34. > :55:39.he wants a cap at the cost of credit, at 4000% APR charged by

:55:40. > :55:49.these companies, whereas a credit union offers 26.8%. A cap sound

:55:50. > :55:53.sensible. And 26.8 makes your eyes water as well. This is a difficult

:55:54. > :56:01.area of business, there does need to be provision for short`term loans to

:56:02. > :56:05.type people over difficult period in their family finances. This is the

:56:06. > :56:07.problem, people need short`term help with their finances. These are

:56:08. > :56:12.companies which exist because there is a market for them. The danger is

:56:13. > :56:17.if we camped down too much, people go to loan sharks. If we have a cap

:56:18. > :56:23.on interest rates, and I do not think the committee went too far on

:56:24. > :56:29.that `` far enough on that, you should also have a cap on people

:56:30. > :56:34.having loans in the year. There is a great credit union in our area that

:56:35. > :56:38.we promote. You have to ask why people are in this state in the

:56:39. > :56:41.first place, it is the cap on benefit and universal credit is not

:56:42. > :56:45.going to work unless we reform certain other areas. If you look at

:56:46. > :56:53.the common agricultural policy, for argument's say, it costs every

:56:54. > :56:57.family 25%... Let's stick to payday loans, we are all agreed that more

:56:58. > :57:01.needs to be done. Let's bring Vince back in. These are companies, you

:57:02. > :57:06.heard their argument in the comments, they are quite sensible

:57:07. > :57:09.and quite often more responsible in their lending than some of the banks

:57:10. > :57:14.and credit card companies. I think it is about looking internationally.

:57:15. > :57:18.Janice would love us to look at international issues but in lots of

:57:19. > :57:21.countries, these organisations have been banned outright. It is about

:57:22. > :57:24.looking at what has happened elsewhere. Absolutely about

:57:25. > :57:30.promoting our credit unions to be great community cooperatives, and

:57:31. > :57:36.making each other is a total cup on the cost of credit. `` making sure

:57:37. > :57:38.there is a total cap on the cost of credit.

:57:39. > :57:42.And now a round`up of the other political events that you might have

:57:43. > :57:47.missed this week with our Political Editor, Louise Stewart.

:57:48. > :57:55.Kent county council is consulted as on plans `` is consulting on plans

:57:56. > :58:03.to end a three`year freeze on council. It has to save ?270 million

:58:04. > :58:17.and looks likely to reject the extra money from the government. We would

:58:18. > :58:21.not do fracking if we do not think it was face. The Mayor of London

:58:22. > :58:28.used typical colourful language when he urged the company to enter the

:58:29. > :58:34.dither and build an airport in the Thames in history.

:58:35. > :58:41.And Nigel Farage does not seem to have learned his lesson. There was a

:58:42. > :58:45.plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament. That was a violet

:58:46. > :58:48.approach, you, of course, have taken the bowl and technocratic approach.

:58:49. > :59:04.`` deep L and technocratic. You used quite strong language about

:59:05. > :59:09.Eric 's pickles `` Eric pickles's approach to reduce council tax, you

:59:10. > :59:12.called it a bribe, are you sticking to that? We have sought his help but

:59:13. > :59:22.it does not solve the underlying pace budget problem with budgets in

:59:23. > :59:26.local authorities. We have frozen council tax and used every trick in

:59:27. > :59:31.the book, we have taken up his small amounts of money when we have had to

:59:32. > :59:38.make savings of ?90 million. We have to find that again every year. You

:59:39. > :59:45.are sticking two fingers up by the sounds that! It is not adequate. We

:59:46. > :59:54.are consulting on a council tax increase on nine point `` 1.90%,

:59:55. > :59:57.just below the cap. That only produces ?10 million when we have

:59:58. > :00:01.two save ?90 million for three years. Does your heart sinks when

:00:02. > :00:08.you hear Nigel Farage talk like that? Absolutely not. That is why

:00:09. > :00:11.people vote for UKIP, that is why people are fed up with the

:00:12. > :00:17.coalition. At least the media are now reporting what is going on over

:00:18. > :00:21.there, 84% of our laws come from Europe, that has got to stop. That

:00:22. > :00:24.is all we have got time for. Thank you to our guests. Julia will be

:00:25. > :00:40.here next week. We learned this week that no more

:00:41. > :00:44.warships will be built at Portsmouth, the home of the Royal

:00:45. > :00:47.Navy since the days of the Mary Rose and Francis Drake. But has the city

:00:48. > :00:51.been sacrificed to save jobs on the Clyde in Scotland? Is England the

:00:52. > :00:55.loser in an effort to keep the United Kingdom intact? Let's speak

:00:56. > :01:06.to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign for an English Parliament. Is

:01:07. > :01:07.England the loser in this attempt to keep the

:01:08. > :01:15.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

:01:16. > :01:20.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

:01:21. > :01:26.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

:01:27. > :01:30.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

:01:31. > :01:34.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

:01:35. > :01:40.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

:01:41. > :01:44.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

:01:45. > :01:51.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

:01:52. > :01:58.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

:01:59. > :02:04.true representation. The union continues but it continues without

:02:05. > :02:08.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

:02:09. > :02:13.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

:02:14. > :02:19.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

:02:20. > :02:25.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

:02:26. > :02:29.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

:02:30. > :02:33.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

:02:34. > :02:42.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

:02:43. > :02:47.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

:02:48. > :02:51.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

:02:52. > :02:56.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

:02:57. > :03:03.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

:03:04. > :03:08.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

:03:09. > :03:13.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

:03:14. > :03:17.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

:03:18. > :03:22.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

:03:23. > :03:27.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

:03:28. > :03:30.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

:03:31. > :03:35.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

:03:36. > :03:40.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

:03:41. > :03:44.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

:03:45. > :03:50.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

:03:51. > :03:57.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

:03:58. > :04:04.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

:04:05. > :04:13.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

:04:14. > :04:19.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

:04:20. > :04:23.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

:04:24. > :04:27.to have their representation - representation that looks at

:04:28. > :04:31.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

:04:32. > :04:36.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

:04:37. > :04:47.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

:04:48. > :04:55.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

:04:56. > :05:02.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

:05:03. > :05:07.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

:05:08. > :05:12.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

:05:13. > :05:17.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

:05:18. > :05:20.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

:05:21. > :05:26.British government is trying desperately to save the union by

:05:27. > :05:32.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

:05:33. > :05:36.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

:05:37. > :05:40.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

:05:41. > :05:45.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

:05:46. > :05:50.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

:05:51. > :05:53.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

:05:54. > :05:58.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

:05:59. > :06:03.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

:06:04. > :06:07.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

:06:08. > :06:12.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

:06:13. > :06:18.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

:06:19. > :06:24.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

:06:25. > :06:29.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

:06:30. > :06:33.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

:06:34. > :06:37.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

:06:38. > :06:41.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

:06:42. > :06:46.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

:06:47. > :06:50.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

:06:51. > :06:54.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

:06:55. > :07:00.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

:07:01. > :07:08.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

:07:09. > :07:13.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

:07:14. > :07:17.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

:07:18. > :07:24.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

:07:25. > :07:28.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

:07:29. > :07:32.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

:07:33. > :07:35.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

:07:36. > :07:39.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

:07:40. > :07:43.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

:07:44. > :07:50.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

:07:51. > :07:54.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

:07:55. > :07:57.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

:07:58. > :08:00.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

:08:01. > :08:04.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

:08:05. > :08:07.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

:08:08. > :08:11.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

:08:12. > :08:20.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

:08:21. > :08:25.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

:08:26. > :08:31.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

:08:32. > :08:38.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

:08:39. > :08:44.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

:08:45. > :08:51.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

:08:52. > :09:16.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

:09:17. > :09:23.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

:09:24. > :09:29.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

:09:30. > :09:35.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

:09:36. > :09:41.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

:09:42. > :09:45.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

:09:46. > :09:51.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

:09:52. > :10:02.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

:10:03. > :10:07.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

:10:08. > :10:13.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

:10:14. > :10:16.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

:10:17. > :10:20.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

:10:21. > :10:26.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

:10:27. > :10:34.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

:10:35. > :10:39.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

:10:40. > :10:43.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

:10:44. > :10:48.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

:10:49. > :10:56.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

:10:57. > :10:59.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

:11:00. > :11:03.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

:11:04. > :11:08.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

:11:09. > :11:13.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

:11:14. > :11:18.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

:11:19. > :11:24.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

:11:25. > :11:31.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

:11:32. > :11:37.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

:11:38. > :11:40.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

:11:41. > :11:44.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

:11:45. > :11:50.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

:11:51. > :11:54.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

:11:55. > :12:02.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

:12:03. > :12:07.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

:12:08. > :12:12.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

:12:13. > :12:24.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

:12:25. > :12:33.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

:12:34. > :12:37.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

:12:38. > :12:41.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

:12:42. > :12:45.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

:12:46. > :12:49.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

:12:50. > :12:59.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

:13:00. > :13:03.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

:13:04. > :13:10.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

:13:11. > :13:14.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

:13:15. > :13:19.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

:13:20. > :13:25.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

:13:26. > :13:28.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

:13:29. > :13:31.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

:13:32. > :13:42.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.