:00:34. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:44. > :00:47.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:48. > :00:50.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:51. > :00:54.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:55. > :00:59.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:00. > :01:09.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:10. > :01:12.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:13. > :01:16.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:17. > :01:17.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The
:01:18. > :01:28.speech won him plenty And in the south`east, one in my age
:01:29. > :01:29.are more likely to die as result of domestic islands than any other
:01:30. > :01:31.cause so capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:32. > :01:43.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:44. > :01:46.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:47. > :01:53.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:54. > :01:56.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:57. > :02:05.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:06. > :02:08.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:09. > :02:11.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:12. > :02:13.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:14. > :02:17.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:18. > :02:21.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:22. > :02:27.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:28. > :02:32.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:33. > :02:36.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:37. > :02:40.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:41. > :02:44.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:45. > :02:47.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:48. > :02:53.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:54. > :02:59.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:00. > :03:03.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:04. > :03:06.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:07. > :03:12.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:13. > :03:17.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:18. > :03:22.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:23. > :03:27.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:28. > :03:33.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:34. > :03:39.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:40. > :03:45.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:46. > :03:49.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:50. > :03:52.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:53. > :03:58.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:03:59. > :04:02.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:03. > :04:09.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:10. > :04:13.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:14. > :04:17.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:18. > :04:22.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:23. > :04:27.incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:28. > :04:34.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:35. > :04:39.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:40. > :04:45.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:46. > :04:51.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:52. > :04:53.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:54. > :04:58.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:04:59. > :05:05.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:06. > :05:10.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:11. > :05:14.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:15. > :05:18.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:19. > :05:22.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:23. > :05:27.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:28. > :05:32.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:33. > :05:39.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0
:05:40. > :05:47.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:48. > :05:50.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:51. > :05:55.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50
:05:56. > :05:59.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:00. > :06:04.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:05. > :06:08.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:09. > :06:13.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:14. > :06:16.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:17. > :06:22.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:23. > :06:30.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:31. > :06:33.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:34. > :06:39.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:40. > :06:45.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:46. > :06:50.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:51. > :06:54.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:55. > :06:57.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:06:58. > :07:02.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:03. > :07:06.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:07. > :07:12.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:13. > :07:18.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:19. > :07:22.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:23. > :07:26.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:27. > :07:33.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:34. > :07:37.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:38. > :07:41.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:42. > :07:44.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:45. > :07:50.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:51. > :07:56.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:57. > :08:02.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:03. > :08:06.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:07. > :08:14.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:15. > :08:18.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:19. > :08:24.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:25. > :08:32.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:33. > :08:39.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:40. > :08:44.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:45. > :08:51.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:52. > :08:54.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:55. > :09:07.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:08. > :09:11.point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the
:09:12. > :09:16.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:17. > :09:21.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:22. > :09:24.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:25. > :09:32.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:33. > :09:37.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:38. > :09:40.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:41. > :09:44.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:45. > :09:48.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:49. > :09:56.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:57. > :10:00.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:01. > :10:05.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:06. > :10:11.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:12. > :10:15.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:16. > :10:21.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:22. > :10:31.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:32. > :10:36.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:37. > :10:41.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:42. > :10:45.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:46. > :10:54.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:55. > :10:58.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:10:59. > :11:03.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:04. > :11:08.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:09. > :11:15.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:16. > :11:18.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:19. > :11:23.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:24. > :11:31.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:32. > :11:38.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:39. > :11:42.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:43. > :11:48.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:49. > :11:52.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:53. > :11:57.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:58. > :12:04.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:05. > :12:07.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:08. > :12:19.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:20. > :12:25.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference
:12:26. > :12:36.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on
:12:37. > :12:42.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:43. > :12:47.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:48. > :12:54.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:55. > :12:59.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:00. > :13:04.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:05. > :13:08.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:09. > :13:15.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:16. > :13:19.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:20. > :13:24.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:25. > :13:30.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:31. > :13:41.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:42. > :13:46.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:47. > :13:50.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:51. > :13:57.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:58. > :14:02.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:03. > :14:09.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:10. > :14:14.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:15. > :14:18.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:19. > :14:24.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:25. > :14:28.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:29. > :14:33.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:34. > :14:38.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:39. > :14:43.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:44. > :14:48.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:49. > :14:52.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:53. > :14:56.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:57. > :15:01.disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:02. > :15:07.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:08. > :15:14.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:15. > :15:27.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:28. > :15:33.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:34. > :15:36.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:37. > :15:47.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:48. > :15:52.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:53. > :15:56.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:57. > :16:03.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:04. > :16:06.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:07. > :16:09.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:10. > :16:13.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:14. > :16:16.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:17. > :16:19.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:20. > :16:23.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:24. > :16:27.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:28. > :16:31.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:32. > :16:37.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:38. > :16:42.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:43. > :16:46.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:47. > :16:55.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:56. > :16:56.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:57. > :17:01.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:02. > :17:05.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.
:17:06. > :17:11.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:12. > :17:14.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:15. > :17:19.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:20. > :17:30.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:31. > :17:37.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:38. > :17:39.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:40. > :17:45.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:46. > :17:48.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:49. > :17:53.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:54. > :17:56.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:57. > :17:59.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:00. > :18:05.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:06. > :18:10.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:11. > :18:14.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:15. > :18:20.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:21. > :18:24.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:25. > :18:29.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:30. > :18:32.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:33. > :18:37.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:38. > :18:42.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:43. > :18:46.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:47. > :18:52.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:53. > :18:59.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:00. > :19:03.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:04. > :19:10.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:11. > :19:13.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:14. > :19:18.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:19. > :19:23.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:24. > :19:28.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:29. > :19:33.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:34. > :19:37.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:38. > :19:42.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:43. > :19:45.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:46. > :19:48.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:49. > :19:56.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:57. > :19:57.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:19:58. > :20:00.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:01. > :20:04.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:05. > :20:10.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:11. > :20:14.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:15. > :20:17.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:18. > :20:21.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:22. > :20:25.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:26. > :20:31.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:32. > :20:34.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:35. > :20:45.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:46. > :20:49.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:50. > :20:55.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:56. > :20:59.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:00. > :21:04.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:05. > :21:09.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:10. > :21:14.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:15. > :21:18.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:19. > :21:22.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:23. > :21:28.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:29. > :21:32.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:33. > :21:37.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:38. > :21:42.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:43. > :21:47.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:48. > :21:52.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:53. > :21:57.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:21:58. > :22:03.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:04. > :22:08.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:09. > :22:12.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:13. > :22:15.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:16. > :22:21.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:22. > :22:25.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:26. > :22:30.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:31. > :22:34.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:35. > :22:39.in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:40. > :22:43.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:44. > :22:47.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:48. > :22:51.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:52. > :22:56.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:57. > :23:00.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:01. > :23:04.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:05. > :23:07.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:08. > :23:12.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:13. > :23:16.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:17. > :23:20.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:21. > :23:23.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:24. > :23:27.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:28. > :23:31.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:32. > :23:37.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:38. > :23:41.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:42. > :23:44.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:45. > :23:50.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:51. > :23:56.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:57. > :23:59.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:00. > :24:05.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:06. > :24:09.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:10. > :24:12.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:13. > :24:18.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:19. > :24:23.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:24. > :24:28.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:29. > :24:32.changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just
:24:33. > :24:36.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:37. > :24:39.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:40. > :24:42.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:43. > :24:47.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:48. > :24:51.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:52. > :24:54.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:55. > :24:59.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:00. > :25:03.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:04. > :25:08.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:09. > :25:13.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:14. > :25:16.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:17. > :25:21.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:22. > :25:26.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:27. > :25:30.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:31. > :25:40.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:41. > :25:43.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:44. > :25:46.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:47. > :25:49.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:50. > :25:51.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:52. > :25:54.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:55. > :25:59.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:00. > :26:04.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:05. > :26:27.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:28. > :26:30.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:31. > :26:33.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:34. > :26:35.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:36. > :26:38.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:39. > :26:41.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:42. > :26:43.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:44. > :26:46.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:47. > :26:51.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00
:26:52. > :26:56.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:57. > :27:00.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:01. > :27:05.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:06. > :27:09.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:10. > :27:13.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:14. > :27:22.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:23. > :27:27.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:28. > :27:32.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:33. > :27:35.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:36. > :27:39.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:40. > :27:46.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:47. > :27:49.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:50. > :27:53.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:54. > :27:57.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:58. > :28:01.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:02. > :28:06.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:07. > :28:09.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:10. > :28:15.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:16. > :28:17.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:18. > :28:21.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:22. > :28:25.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:26. > :28:29.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:30. > :28:32.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:33. > :28:39.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:40. > :28:44.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:45. > :28:47.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:48. > :28:52.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:53. > :28:55.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:56. > :29:00.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:01. > :29:06.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:07. > :29:12.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:13. > :29:17.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:18. > :29:22.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:23. > :29:28.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:29. > :29:33.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:34. > :29:38.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:39. > :29:42.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:43. > :29:53.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:54. > :29:59.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:00. > :30:03.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:04. > :30:07.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:08. > :30:12.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:13. > :30:16.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:17. > :30:22.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:23. > :30:28.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:29. > :30:37.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:38. > :30:41.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:42. > :30:45.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:46. > :30:51.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:52. > :30:59.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:00. > :31:02.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:03. > :31:14.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:15. > :31:31.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:32. > :31:34.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:35. > :31:40.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:41. > :31:42.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:43. > :31:45.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:46. > :31:48.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:49. > :31:59.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:00. > :32:04.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:05. > :32:09.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:10. > :32:17.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:18. > :32:21.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:22. > :32:28.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:29. > :32:35.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:36. > :32:42.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:43. > :32:44.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader
:32:45. > :32:49.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:50. > :32:55.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:56. > :33:01.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:02. > :33:05.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:06. > :33:08.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:09. > :33:11.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:12. > :33:14.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:15. > :33:20.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:21. > :33:31.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:32. > :33:36.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:37. > :33:50.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:51. > :33:53.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:54. > :33:56.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:57. > :34:03.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:04. > :34:06.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:07. > :34:16.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:17. > :34:20.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:21. > :34:23.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:24. > :34:29.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:30. > :34:36.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:37. > :34:40.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:41. > :34:44.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:45. > :34:48.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:49. > :34:54.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:55. > :35:00.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:01. > :35:05.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:06. > :35:09.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:10. > :35:16.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:17. > :35:23.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and
:35:24. > :35:26.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:27. > :35:33.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:34. > :35:37.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:38. > :35:44.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:45. > :35:47.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:48. > :35:54.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:55. > :35:59.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:00. > :36:06.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:07. > :36:10.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:11. > :36:13.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:14. > :36:18.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:19. > :36:24.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:25. > :36:28.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:29. > :36:36.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:37. > :36:41.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:42. > :36:50.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:51. > :36:55.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:56. > :37:03.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:04. > :37:10.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:11. > :37:13.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:14. > :37:18.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:19. > :37:22.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:23. > :37:32.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:33. > :37:35.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:36. > :37:42.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:43. > :37:49.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:50. > :37:58.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:37:59. > :38:03.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night. It
:38:04. > :38:08.is like dining with a film star. People are queueing up to speak to
:38:09. > :38:13.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer. He
:38:14. > :38:37.has gone liberal on immigration, as are made of London would have to.
:38:38. > :38:42.Coming up later, should we be allowed to walk the whole length of
:38:43. > :38:52.the south coast? Some landowners are impressed with lands for footpaths
:38:53. > :39:06.on their land next to the C. `` next to the seaside.
:39:07. > :39:13.My second guest was recently selected at an American`style
:39:14. > :39:17.primary. They are out to launch their Westminster career is just as
:39:18. > :39:23.another south`east MP and it is house is nearly over. Laura Sands
:39:24. > :39:27.will not be contesting the next election. She has been a popular MP.
:39:28. > :39:38.He was what happened when she stood up to ask a question of the Prime
:39:39. > :39:43.Minister. I think they were cheering, not
:39:44. > :39:48.booing, but it is hard to tell the difference in Westminster. UK are
:39:49. > :40:00.having a field day, saying that she is running scared `` the UK
:40:01. > :40:09.Independence Party. She says the only thing that would have kept her
:40:10. > :40:15.there was the UKIP challenge. Everyone speaking about her has said
:40:16. > :40:26.that she is one hell of a fighter. I do not believe the UKIP line. What
:40:27. > :40:30.she has done is really change a constituency and work hard for the
:40:31. > :40:36.people. She has delivered amazing results and made herself incredibly
:40:37. > :40:38.popular. What is significant for both of you
:40:39. > :40:44.is that I is that is that there is clearly admission
:40:45. > :40:50.that politics is really tough. Do you think you are prepared for what
:40:51. > :40:53.might be coming your way if you are elected?
:40:54. > :41:00.I hope I am prepared. I have certainly done enough work to
:41:01. > :41:05.prepare myself, talking to other MPs and Lords to get a sense of what
:41:06. > :41:10.their life is about. I topped the decision through with my family.
:41:11. > :41:16.Would you be prepared to put politics before your family?
:41:17. > :41:21.20 years ago I decided I wouldn't but 20 years later it is the right
:41:22. > :41:29.time. You have a new baby so how will you
:41:30. > :41:37.feel about walking away from it? That's right but I have a military
:41:38. > :41:49.background and an used to being away in service of my country. Part of
:41:50. > :41:56.the service and duty ethos that I've been brought up with our those
:41:57. > :42:03.things that will allow me to be away for what is only a few days in the
:42:04. > :42:10.week, not six to nine months at a time.
:42:11. > :42:16.Among women of my age domestic violence is the biggest killer.
:42:17. > :42:22.There are many more women than men who never speak out about the abuse.
:42:23. > :42:40.But the money being spent on services for vulnerable woman has
:42:41. > :42:46.been capped. `` cuts. The abuse usually takes place behind
:42:47. > :42:52.closed doors. Domestic violence may be heading but it is widespread.
:42:53. > :42:57.Support services are under threat and the south`east has been
:42:58. > :43:05.particularly badly hit. James survived domestic violence both as a
:43:06. > :43:15.child and as an adult when her ex husband turned controlling, abusive
:43:16. > :43:23.and eventually violent `` Jane. He pushed me into a road, he tried to
:43:24. > :43:29.rape me. He leapt on me in the middle of the night. He was a big
:43:30. > :43:34.guy. I left and got divorced and bought my own house and that was
:43:35. > :43:38.only through sheer determination that I didn't want to be in that
:43:39. > :43:44.situation anymore. I had the back`up of my friends and family and they
:43:45. > :43:59.kept me strong and encouraged me to keep going. Without them I couldn't
:44:00. > :44:07.have done it. Jane is rebuilding her life but
:44:08. > :44:11.charities say that there has been a loss of specialist services,
:44:12. > :44:17.services run by staff who have experience of working specifically
:44:18. > :44:21.with the mystic violence victims. Here in the south`east, seven
:44:22. > :44:26.specialist services were lost in the last three years, more than anywhere
:44:27. > :44:31.else in the country. There were replaced by big general services.
:44:32. > :44:43.Campaigners say that these black services to support women at risk ``
:44:44. > :44:50.lack the services. This domestic abuse service in Thanet helps woman
:44:51. > :44:58.escape abusive relationships and support those who want to remain in
:44:59. > :45:11.the family home. Staff have to concentrate on face helping women at
:45:12. > :45:14.the highest risk due to cut budgets. Sometimes we ask ourselves if we are
:45:15. > :45:23.putting a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. We are at the sharp
:45:24. > :45:28.end of the work, people who have to flee to refuge because they are
:45:29. > :45:33.unsafe. By that point people get to that, there is so much that could
:45:34. > :45:38.have been done before. This is one of the bedrooms in the
:45:39. > :45:48.refuge. There is space for mum and two children. There have been cut to
:45:49. > :46:00.these kinds of safe houses. There has been a cut of 15% since 2010.
:46:01. > :46:06.One reason why there is a looming crisis is a 30% cut in funding. The
:46:07. > :46:12.ring`fencing budgets for a specialist domestic violence
:46:13. > :46:17.services was lifted in 2009 and the current coalition government has
:46:18. > :46:22.reinforced its commitment to letting local councils decide how to spend
:46:23. > :46:27.the funding. But campaigners argue that small specialist charities are
:46:28. > :46:31.unable to compete in the tendering process run by councils when they
:46:32. > :46:36.decide who should provide the mystic violence services.
:46:37. > :46:48.They are not looking at the pattern of violence. One person had to look
:46:49. > :46:57.after another residence children while she was trying to throw
:46:58. > :47:03.herself out of the window. On average, two women every week are
:47:04. > :47:14.killed by their current or former partners. Jane fears for others who
:47:15. > :47:18.don't get the help she received. People lose their lives because of
:47:19. > :47:27.this. If they cut the services, more people will die.
:47:28. > :47:34.I'm joins by Amber Rudd, the Conservative MP for Hastings and
:47:35. > :47:38.drive. Councils are spending less on vulnerable people, including women
:47:39. > :47:52.and children at risk of domestic abuse. We are going backwards and
:47:53. > :48:01.not for words I don't think so but I take very seriously what I have
:48:02. > :48:08.heard. Councils have an obligation to
:48:09. > :48:13.provide refugees and there are many ways of doing that. The other thing
:48:14. > :48:19.I picked up was the comment about a sticking plaster. We have to make
:48:20. > :48:25.sure that we constantly get the message out about domestic
:48:26. > :48:30.violence, that it is unacceptable. We have to start in schools. It
:48:31. > :48:38.should not be hidden away. I was pleased that Clare's Law was brought
:48:39. > :48:44.in that allows women to find out about the violent past of potential
:48:45. > :48:50.partners. We take domestic violence very seriously.
:48:51. > :48:53.You may take it seriously but do you trust local authorities to spend an
:48:54. > :48:59.appropriate amount of money? You rightly said that Labour got bit of
:49:00. > :49:03.the ring`fencing of this budget but you haven't put it back. They just
:49:04. > :49:12.get their general pot of cash and have to decide what to do with it.
:49:13. > :49:17.You cannot stop the council spending money meant for domestic violence on
:49:18. > :49:26.fixing potholes. Shouldn't the government be taking more control?
:49:27. > :49:32.No, local councils are the best to know what to do with the money. They
:49:33. > :49:35.will not fix potholes over saving lives.
:49:36. > :49:41.So why has the money being spent on vulnerable people gone down by 30%
:49:42. > :49:58.in the last five years? They may have bind other ways ``
:49:59. > :50:07.found other ways. The Home Office has put in an additional ?40 million
:50:08. > :50:10.that goes direct to refuges. This government for the first time this
:50:11. > :50:18.putting rape crisis centres on a level funding. We put in another 3.5
:50:19. > :50:25.million. We are doing as much as we can and are pushing forward. Nobody
:50:26. > :50:28.underestimates the importance of it so we are putting pressure on local
:50:29. > :50:35.councils. Thank you for joining us. This is a
:50:36. > :50:46.field of expertise for you. You've done a Ph.D. On women's resistance
:50:47. > :50:53.to domestic violence. But it was the Labour Party who took the
:50:54. > :51:00.ring`fencing away. They allow councils to spend that money on
:51:01. > :51:13.anything they like. So that was a mistake? Well let's see what the
:51:14. > :51:21.results are. There is a politics here we need to think about. The
:51:22. > :51:30.impact is that vulnerable women are not being served, if so we need to
:51:31. > :51:38.protect and enhance the nature of specialist services.
:51:39. > :51:42.Those figures we looked at with those seven services being cut. That
:51:43. > :51:48.is your biggest concern, that we are losing the expertise of helping
:51:49. > :51:52.women and indeed men in these situations?
:51:53. > :51:57.What is really important is that specialist services, people who know
:51:58. > :52:08.what it is really like to deal with the trauma, the fear, the
:52:09. > :52:17.disruption, the scaling issues `` schooling issues. The task is to
:52:18. > :52:27.offer continued support and understanding and counselling and a
:52:28. > :52:30.whole range of services. You have to understand what women are going
:52:31. > :52:38.through and the range of services they need and that has to be
:52:39. > :52:45.protected. Let's look at who makes the decision
:52:46. > :52:48.about the funding. Your party is all for local democracy and local
:52:49. > :52:51.authorities making the decision on where they spend money but they are
:52:52. > :53:01.spending less money on victims of domestic abuse. Do you trust them?
:53:02. > :53:07.I trust people to elect who they want at every level of government. I
:53:08. > :53:12.hope they will trust me to be the representative in Westminster. This
:53:13. > :53:17.is about people deciding who they want to represent them and how did
:53:18. > :53:24.this bend `` how they spend that money. What we're looking at is a
:53:25. > :53:28.government that is trying to get its hands on a budget that was
:53:29. > :53:32.completely out of control and in order to do so it has had to rein in
:53:33. > :53:41.some of the funding from some of the more egregious areas of spending.
:53:42. > :53:46.Some are acknowledging that Labour have made a mistake here.
:53:47. > :53:52.The idea that everything should be done by Westminster is wrong. What
:53:53. > :53:59.about the responsibility of government to protect the most
:54:00. > :54:02.vulnerable individuals? The government does have that
:54:03. > :54:12.responsibility and that is why to raise me `` Theresa May has been
:54:13. > :54:19.introducing measures. There has been 100 cases where police have
:54:20. > :54:25.intervened. Clare's Law must help someone in but
:54:26. > :54:32.it alone with the backdrop of services being cut does not address
:54:33. > :54:40.the issue. You cannot get more local than domestic violence. You have to
:54:41. > :54:46.prioritise the experience that women have in their own home.
:54:47. > :54:54.This isn't only about women. It affects one in six men in their
:54:55. > :54:58.lives. Another question for you to think
:54:59. > :55:03.about. Should you have the right to walk anywhere you like along the
:55:04. > :55:11.south coast? Plans are in place to run a foot path along the whole of
:55:12. > :55:21.the coastline. Not everybody was keen on the idea. Landowners are
:55:22. > :55:27.seeing now to people walking on their lands, that's all a bit
:55:28. > :55:44.predictable, isn't it? You could say that Bartz the
:55:45. > :55:52.government has `` you could say that but we have tried to follow the
:55:53. > :56:00.Welsh model of using the highways act to bridge those gaps. So you're
:56:01. > :56:09.looking for a bit of the compensation, a bit of a pay`out for
:56:10. > :56:19.the landowners. Yes, it is private property. If you
:56:20. > :56:23.have your own private property, why shouldn't you be compensated for
:56:24. > :56:27.people using it? What would you be compensated for?
:56:28. > :56:34.What are the downsides of people walking on it?
:56:35. > :56:50.You are potentially losing value on the land because you cannot use it
:56:51. > :56:54.exclusively for your own use. If the cliff falls into the sea, we
:56:55. > :56:59.get a bit more of your lands to walk on?
:57:00. > :57:02.Correct. Do you have sympathy for the
:57:03. > :57:18.landowners? I do that I'll so have `` I also
:57:19. > :57:22.have sympathy for the walkers. We are walking around some of the most
:57:23. > :57:28.beautiful coastlines in the world and it is a fantastic opportunity
:57:29. > :57:33.for people to get out and exercise. There is a landowner issue and I
:57:34. > :57:36.understand what the gentleman was saying about getting the rights
:57:37. > :57:37.appropriately balanced I think there is a I is a
:57:38. > :57:46.is a bit of work to do on this. Someone from the Ramblers
:57:47. > :57:59.Association described this as a bed victory for everyone who walks on
:58:00. > :58:07.our island. Do we all have the right to walk on someone else's land?
:58:08. > :58:17.If it is someone else's land, there is an issue, but this is about
:58:18. > :58:23.making it public land. That is an important right that was enshrined
:58:24. > :58:27.by the last government. We live in the most beautiful part of the
:58:28. > :58:32.country and people should be able to enjoy that for free. We have a
:58:33. > :58:38.problem with obesity in this country and this is a fantastic proposal to
:58:39. > :58:41.get everybody out with rights of access and fresh air to enjoy the
:58:42. > :58:47.wonderful countryside. You don't need every part of the
:58:48. > :58:53.countryside joined up to encourage people to go out for a walk though.
:58:54. > :59:01.You used to be able to rely on the countryside for core support. But it
:59:02. > :59:06.seems the Conservative Party have annoyed some people in the
:59:07. > :59:11.countryside. I think you will find that David
:59:12. > :59:14.Cameron is the Prime Minister of the whole of the United Kingdom and not
:59:15. > :59:19.a special lobbyist for the countryside.
:59:20. > :59:24.But you need everybody to get out of coalition.
:59:25. > :59:29.Yes and I think you will find we will reach that in the next
:59:30. > :59:37.election. You are right that we needs to keep our links with the
:59:38. > :59:45.countryside and I am fortunate enough to be living in the
:59:46. > :59:50.countryside. Farmers will know where to come next
:59:51. > :59:57.spring then. Time for a round`up of the week.
:59:58. > :00:02.12 children centres are to close in Kent as part of a cost`cutting
:00:03. > :00:05.drive. 11 others which were earmarked for closure will now be
:00:06. > :00:09.speared, costing an extra ?5000 in two years. Council bosses claim they
:00:10. > :00:13.have made sure the most vulnerable don't lose out.
:00:14. > :00:16.Earlier this week, I was tested for HIV.
:00:17. > :00:19.Brighton Kemptown MP Simon Kirby used Prime Minister's Questions to
:00:20. > :00:22.raise annual World AIDS Day. Brighton and Hove has the highest
:00:23. > :00:27.prevalence of people with HIV outside London and the rate is
:00:28. > :00:32.rising. Around one in five don't know they have virus.
:00:33. > :00:36.It is a brave man who bets against the All Blacks when it comes to
:00:37. > :00:39.rugby but David Cameron did just that when he promised the New
:00:40. > :00:43.Zealand PM he would wear a pair of Kiwi cuff links designed by a
:00:44. > :00:45.jeweller in Brighton if he lost. I did so last week but fortunately
:00:46. > :00:48.nobody noticed. And days after the PM got into
:00:49. > :00:52.trouble for suggesting an opposition MP may have taken mind`altering
:00:53. > :00:54.drugs, a Labour MP asked the MP for Lewes Norman Baker if he had had
:00:55. > :00:58.mind`altering surgery before becoming the Drugs Minister.
:00:59. > :01:07.Had I had a lobotomy, I wouldn't be able to answer that question.
:01:08. > :01:14.You have both just done your first television interviews as prospective
:01:15. > :01:19.parliamentary candidates. I was at? It should have been longer. It was
:01:20. > :01:20.great fun. That's all we've got time for this
:01:21. > :01:26.week. Goodbye. touching on eugenics and things like
:01:27. > :01:27.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you.
:01:28. > :01:44.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George
:01:45. > :01:50.Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?
:01:51. > :01:56.All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by
:01:57. > :02:02.Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the
:02:03. > :02:07.government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic
:02:08. > :02:12.recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy
:02:13. > :02:17.prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last
:02:18. > :02:20.few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to
:02:21. > :02:25.readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that
:02:26. > :02:30.we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,
:02:31. > :02:35.people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were
:02:36. > :02:43.saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?
:02:44. > :02:48.Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be
:02:49. > :02:54.up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5
:02:55. > :02:59.million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre
:03:00. > :03:04.of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That
:03:05. > :03:09.was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were
:03:10. > :03:13.winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of
:03:14. > :03:18.living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about
:03:19. > :03:27.the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has
:03:28. > :03:34.been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes
:03:35. > :03:39.packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are
:03:40. > :03:44.with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.
:03:45. > :03:50.Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the
:03:51. > :03:53.triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That
:03:54. > :03:59.is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have
:04:00. > :04:02.stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,
:04:03. > :04:08.people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were
:04:09. > :04:15.talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have
:04:16. > :04:19.forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than
:04:20. > :04:25.it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national
:04:26. > :04:29.debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You
:04:30. > :04:36.are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on
:04:37. > :04:42.this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the
:04:43. > :04:45.foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne
:04:46. > :04:50.is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,
:04:51. > :04:55.it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel
:04:56. > :05:00.duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not
:05:01. > :05:05.changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for
:05:06. > :05:12.growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for
:05:13. > :05:18.giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of
:05:19. > :05:24.giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the
:05:25. > :05:29.headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were
:05:30. > :05:36.always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly
:05:37. > :05:40.better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably
:05:41. > :05:46.better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is
:05:47. > :05:51.basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business
:05:52. > :05:59.investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20
:06:00. > :06:03.devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.
:06:04. > :06:11.Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate
:06:12. > :06:15.about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not
:06:16. > :06:20.technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in
:06:21. > :06:27.terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about
:06:28. > :06:33.the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.
:06:34. > :06:38.So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?
:06:39. > :06:44.Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they
:06:45. > :06:49.are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no
:06:50. > :06:53.economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.
:06:54. > :07:01.That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves
:07:02. > :07:04.to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this
:07:05. > :07:06.evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the
:07:07. > :08:00.first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports
:08:01. > :08:05.unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They
:08:06. > :08:10.are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.
:08:11. > :08:14.We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why
:08:15. > :08:20.the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing
:08:21. > :08:25.the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips
:08:26. > :08:30.produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the
:08:31. > :08:35.Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London
:08:36. > :08:41.will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at
:08:42. > :08:44.all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been
:08:45. > :08:48.doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.
:08:49. > :08:56.I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British
:08:57. > :09:02.exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In
:09:03. > :09:07.20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational
:09:08. > :09:11.services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our
:09:12. > :09:16.strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can
:09:17. > :09:20.do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from
:09:21. > :09:27.something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one
:09:28. > :09:32.stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we
:09:33. > :09:37.exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to
:09:38. > :09:47.Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of
:09:48. > :09:52.Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange
:09:53. > :09:55.for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he
:09:56. > :10:02.has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we
:10:03. > :10:08.have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This
:10:09. > :10:12.trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of
:10:13. > :10:15.London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the
:10:16. > :10:21.date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.
:10:22. > :10:25.It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where
:10:26. > :10:33.we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month
:10:34. > :10:39.after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is
:10:40. > :10:43.difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes
:10:44. > :10:46.to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but
:10:47. > :10:51.when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,
:10:52. > :10:58.they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is
:10:59. > :11:03.very important. High-level delegations from other countries go
:11:04. > :11:14.to these places because the addict -- because they are important export
:11:15. > :11:19.markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,
:11:20. > :11:23.and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy
:11:24. > :11:29.cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in
:11:30. > :11:33.Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all
:11:34. > :11:39.sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above
:11:40. > :11:46.the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that
:11:47. > :11:50.on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now
:11:51. > :11:58.and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he
:11:59. > :12:01.may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,
:12:02. > :12:09.from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts
:12:10. > :12:14.that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level
:12:15. > :12:18.for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.
:12:19. > :12:25.They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The
:12:26. > :12:29.Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the
:12:30. > :12:34.40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer
:12:35. > :12:41.and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good
:12:42. > :12:44.hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or
:12:45. > :12:49.increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn
:12:50. > :12:56.Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the
:12:57. > :13:01.year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot
:13:02. > :13:06.complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's
:13:07. > :13:10.lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do
:13:11. > :13:13.they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,
:13:14. > :13:19.maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of
:13:20. > :13:24.that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins
:13:25. > :13:30.to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be
:13:31. > :13:33.assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for
:13:34. > :13:36.today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except
:13:37. > :13:39.on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and
:13:40. > :13:42.analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics
:13:43. > :13:44.special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:45. > :13:47.it's the Sunday Politics.