:00:38. > :00:43.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:44. > :00:48.coalition is fighting over cuts. coalition is fighting over cuts
:00:49. > :00:52.Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance the books would hit the poorest
:00:53. > :00:58.hardest. He will not say what he will cut. That is the top story.
:00:59. > :01:02.Chris Grayling called for a completely new deal with Europe as
:01:03. > :01:06.he battles will rings from the European Court of Human Rights. He
:01:07. > :01:10.joins me. Labour promises to shift
:01:11. > :01:19.Here in the South East. Where they will they get a
:01:20. > :01:23.Here in the South East. Where they abandoned at Christmas?
:01:24. > :01:32.be serious. Have cuts left to the service being overstretched?
:01:33. > :01:40.With me for the duration, a top trio of political pundits, Helen Lewis,
:01:41. > :01:49.Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They will be tweeting faster than France
:01:50. > :01:53.or long scoots through Paris. Nick Clegg sticks to his New Year
:01:54. > :01:57.resolution to sock it to the Tories, the is how he described Tory plans
:01:58. > :01:59.for another 12 billion of cuts on welfare after the next election.
:02:00. > :02:04.welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives
:02:05. > :02:07.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will
:02:08. > :02:11.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if
:02:12. > :02:14.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to
:02:15. > :02:22.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy
:02:23. > :02:27.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the
:02:28. > :02:31.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear
:02:32. > :02:36.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make
:02:37. > :02:39.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public
:02:40. > :02:45.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories
:02:46. > :02:51.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive
:02:52. > :02:58.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two
:02:59. > :03:03.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is
:03:04. > :03:07.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying
:03:08. > :03:13.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the
:03:14. > :03:19.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will
:03:20. > :03:22.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined
:03:23. > :03:28.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There
:03:29. > :03:32.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the
:03:33. > :03:37.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent
:03:38. > :03:41.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals
:03:42. > :03:46.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was
:03:47. > :03:51.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have
:03:52. > :03:55.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,
:03:56. > :03:59.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was
:04:00. > :04:03.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a
:04:04. > :04:09.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I
:04:10. > :04:16.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about
:04:17. > :04:19.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed
:04:20. > :04:25.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a
:04:26. > :04:31.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed
:04:32. > :04:36.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood
:04:37. > :04:40.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he
:04:41. > :04:44.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels
:04:45. > :04:46.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition, and
:04:47. > :04:52.the early days of the coalition and maybe those winds will haunt him all
:04:53. > :04:57.the way to the general election. But he feels liberated, he says, we will
:04:58. > :05:00.be the restraining influence on both the Conservatives, who cannot insure
:05:01. > :05:04.that the recovery is fair, and the Labour Party, that do not have
:05:05. > :05:08.economic red ability. He feels relaxed, and that is why he is
:05:09. > :05:17.attacking the Tories and appearing pretty relaxed. He could also be
:05:18. > :05:21.falling into a trap. The Tories think what they suggesting on
:05:22. > :05:25.welfare cuts is possible. The more he attacks it, the more Tories will
:05:26. > :05:31.say, if you gave us an overall majority, he is the one it. He keeps
:05:32. > :05:34.taking these ostensibly on popular positions and it only makes sense
:05:35. > :05:39.when you talk to them behind the scenes, they are going after a tiny
:05:40. > :05:46.slice of the electorate, 20%, who are open to the idea of voting Lib
:05:47. > :05:52.Dem, and their views are a bit more left liberal than the bulk of the
:05:53. > :05:58.public. There is a perverse logic in them aggressively targeting that
:05:59. > :06:02.section of voters. In the end, ten macro's problem, if you do not like
:06:03. > :06:07.what this coalition has been doing, you will not vote for somebody who
:06:08. > :06:15.was part of it, you will vote for the Labour Party. The Tories are too
:06:16. > :06:18.nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has
:06:19. > :06:25.gone to Labour, and that is what could hand the largest party to
:06:26. > :06:29.Labour. That small number of voters, soft Tory voters, the problem for
:06:30. > :06:33.the Liberal Democrats is, if you fight, as they did, three general
:06:34. > :06:37.elections to the left of the Labour Party, and at the end of the third,
:06:38. > :06:42.you find yourself in Colour Vision with the Conservatives, you have a
:06:43. > :06:50.problem. Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has
:06:51. > :06:54.had to deal with aid riot at HM Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike
:06:55. > :07:05.and unhappy probation officers taking industrial action.
:07:06. > :07:15.Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers
:07:16. > :07:23.and rapists. It makes many who are tempted to commit crime think twice.
:07:24. > :07:28.Traditional Tory policy on criminal justice and prisons has been tough
:07:29. > :07:33.talking and tough dealing. Not only have they tended to think what they
:07:34. > :07:37.are offering is right, but have had the feeling, you thinking what they
:07:38. > :07:43.thinking. But nearly two decades after Michael Howard's message, his
:07:44. > :07:46.party, in Colour Vision government, is finding prison has to work like
:07:47. > :07:51.everything else within today's financial realities. The Justice
:07:52. > :07:57.Secretary for two years after the election had previous in this field.
:07:58. > :08:03.Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a change of direction. Just binding up
:08:04. > :08:08.more and more people for longer without actively seeking to change
:08:09. > :08:17.them is, in my opinion, what you would expect of Victorian England.
:08:18. > :08:24.The key to keeping people out of prison now, it seems, is giving them
:08:25. > :08:28.in a job, on release. Ironically, Ken Clarke was released from his job
:08:29. > :08:35.15 months ago and replaced by Chris Grayling. But here, within HM Prison
:08:36. > :08:38.Liverpool, Timpson has been working since 2009 with chosen offenders to
:08:39. > :08:42.offer training and the chance of a job. Before you ask, they do not
:08:43. > :08:47.teach them keep cutting in a category B prison. The Academy is
:08:48. > :08:53.deliberately meant to look like a company store, not a prison. It
:08:54. > :08:57.helps. You forget where you are at times, it feels weird, going back to
:08:58. > :09:05.a wing at the end of the day. It is different. A different atmosphere.
:09:06. > :09:09.That is why people like it. Timpson have six academies in prisons,
:09:10. > :09:13.training prisoners inside, and outside they offer jobs to
:09:14. > :09:16.ex-offenders, who make up 8% of their staff. It has been hard work
:09:17. > :09:23.persuading some governors that such cooperation can work. I have seen a
:09:24. > :09:27.dramatic change positively, working with prisoners, particularly in the
:09:28. > :09:34.last five years. They understand now what business's expectation is.
:09:35. > :09:39.Timpson do not just employ offenders, but as one ex-prisoner
:09:40. > :09:43.released in February and now managing his own store says, the
:09:44. > :09:50.point is many others will not employ offenders at all. From what I have
:09:51. > :09:54.experienced, on one hand, you have somebody with a criminal conviction,
:09:55. > :09:57.on the other, somebody who does not have one, so it is a case of
:09:58. > :10:02.favouring those who have a clean record. Anybody with a criminal
:10:03. > :10:07.conviction is passed to one side and overlooked. That, amongst myriad
:10:08. > :10:13.other changes to prison and how we deal with prisoners, is on the desk
:10:14. > :10:16.of the man at the top. Ever since Chris Grayling became Secretary of
:10:17. > :10:20.State for Justice, he has wanted to signal a change of direction of
:10:21. > :10:24.policy, and he is in a hurry to make radical reforms across the board,
:10:25. > :10:29.from size and types of prisons to probation services, reoffending
:10:30. > :10:32.rates, legal aid services, and there has been opposition to that from
:10:33. > :10:36.groups who do not agree with him. But what might actually shackle him
:10:37. > :10:39.is none of that. It is the fact that he is in government with a party
:10:40. > :10:43.that does not always agree with him, he has to abide by the rulings of
:10:44. > :10:49.the European Court of Human Rights, and in those famous words, there is
:10:50. > :10:55.no money left. We would like to go further and faster. I would like him
:10:56. > :10:59.too, but we are where we are. If the Liberal Democrats want to be wiped
:11:00. > :11:03.out at the next election based on what they believe, that is fair
:11:04. > :11:08.enough. We accept there has to be savings, but there are areas where
:11:09. > :11:15.we feel that there is ideological driven policy-making going on, and
:11:16. > :11:22.privatising may not save any money at all, and so does not make any
:11:23. > :11:30.sense. The question is, we'll all of that means some of Chris Grayling's
:11:31. > :11:39.reforms need closer inspection? Chris Grayling joins me now.
:11:40. > :11:47.Welcome. We have a lot to cover If you get your way, your own personal
:11:48. > :11:49.way, will be next Tory manifesto promise to withdraw from the
:11:50. > :11:57.European Convention of human rights? It will contain a promise
:11:58. > :12:02.for radical changes. We have to curtail the role of the European
:12:03. > :12:07.court here, replace our human rights act from the late 1990s, make our
:12:08. > :12:11.Supreme Court our Supreme Court, they can be no question of decisions
:12:12. > :12:15.over riding it elsewhere, and we have to have a situation where our
:12:16. > :12:21.laws contain a balance of rights and responsibilities. People talk about
:12:22. > :12:26.knowing their rights, but they do not accept they have responsible it
:12:27. > :12:35.is. This is what you said last September, I want to see our Supreme
:12:36. > :12:39.Court being supreme again... That is clear, but let's be honest, the
:12:40. > :12:42.Supreme Court cannot be supreme as long as its decisions can be
:12:43. > :12:48.referred to the European Court in Strasbourg. There is clearly an
:12:49. > :12:54.issue, that was raised recency - recently. We have been working on a
:12:55. > :12:58.detailed reform plan, we will publish that in the not too distant
:12:59. > :13:01.future. What we will set out is a direction of travel for a new
:13:02. > :13:06.Conservative government that will mean wholesale change in this area.
:13:07. > :13:12.You already tried to reform the European Court, who had this
:13:13. > :13:17.declaration in 2012, do you accept that the reform is off the table?
:13:18. > :13:21.There is still a process of reform, but it is not going fast enough and
:13:22. > :13:24.not delivering the kind of change we need. That is why we will bring
:13:25. > :13:29.forward a package that for the different from that and will set a
:13:30. > :13:32.different direction of travel. We are clear across the coalition, we
:13:33. > :13:38.have a different view from our colleagues. You cannot be half
:13:39. > :13:44.pregnant on this, either our decisions from our Supreme Court are
:13:45. > :13:49.subject to the European Cup or not, in which case, we are not part of
:13:50. > :13:52.the European court. I hope you will see from our proposals we have come
:13:53. > :13:56.up with a sensible strategy that deals with this issue once and for
:13:57. > :14:03.all. Can we be part of the Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme
:14:04. > :14:07.Court be supreme? That is by point, we have to curtail the role of the
:14:08. > :14:11.court in the UK. I am clear that is what we will seek to do. It is what
:14:12. > :14:17.we will do for this country. But how? I am not going to announce the
:14:18. > :14:21.package of policies today, but we will go into the next election with
:14:22. > :14:28.a clear strategy that will curtail the role of the European Court of
:14:29. > :14:32.Human Rights in the UK. The decisions have to be taken in
:14:33. > :14:36.Parliament in this country. Are you sure that you have got your own side
:14:37. > :14:54.on this? Look at what the Attorney General says.
:14:55. > :15:06.I would be asking Strasberg a different question to that. If the
:15:07. > :15:09.best in class, he is saying is enough is enough, actually somebody
:15:10. > :15:14.in Strasberg should be asking if this has gone the way it should have
:15:15. > :15:16.done. I would love to see wholesale reform in the court tomorrow, I'm
:15:17. > :15:20.reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which
:15:21. > :15:27.is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.
:15:28. > :15:32.Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My
:15:33. > :15:38.mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say
:15:39. > :15:42.where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area
:15:43. > :15:47.where we don't agree as parties, but in my view the public in this
:15:48. > :15:52.country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95
:15:53. > :15:56.Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives
:15:57. > :16:00.the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union
:16:01. > :16:06.law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you
:16:07. > :16:12.couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the
:16:13. > :16:23.letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced
:16:24. > :16:29.my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where
:16:30. > :16:32.one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the
:16:33. > :16:39.concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our
:16:40. > :16:42.membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system
:16:43. > :16:46.which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation
:16:47. > :16:52.where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European
:16:53. > :17:00.Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the
:17:01. > :17:05.right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan
:17:06. > :17:09.Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country
:17:10. > :17:15.should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare
:17:16. > :17:20.benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that
:17:21. > :17:25.before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to
:17:26. > :17:30.take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made
:17:31. > :17:34.a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels
:17:35. > :17:38.trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for
:17:39. > :17:43.change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind
:17:44. > :17:47.Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a
:17:48. > :17:51.clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to
:17:52. > :17:59.get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not
:18:00. > :18:05.acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other
:18:06. > :18:11.smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has
:18:12. > :18:16.happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made
:18:17. > :18:23.about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will
:18:24. > :18:28.be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and
:18:29. > :18:34.private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood
:18:35. > :18:38.is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but
:18:39. > :18:46.the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison
:18:47. > :18:50.of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales, a
:18:51. > :18:56.big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the
:18:57. > :19:02.last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood
:19:03. > :19:07.and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would
:19:08. > :19:12.you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning
:19:13. > :19:18.permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few
:19:19. > :19:24.years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with
:19:25. > :19:30.dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is
:19:31. > :19:33.acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of
:19:34. > :19:40.contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the
:19:41. > :19:44.Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.
:19:45. > :19:50.They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.
:19:51. > :19:57.What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 2000
:19:58. > :20:07.capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every
:20:08. > :20:11.private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are
:20:12. > :20:15.quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the
:20:16. > :20:22.barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What
:20:23. > :20:27.happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid
:20:28. > :20:32.and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When
:20:33. > :20:38.the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were
:20:39. > :20:43.operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating
:20:44. > :20:46.normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across
:20:47. > :20:51.government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over
:20:52. > :20:55.?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are
:20:56. > :21:03.becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal
:21:04. > :21:09.barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but
:21:10. > :21:15.that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their
:21:16. > :21:20.expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People
:21:21. > :21:26.are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,
:21:27. > :21:30.our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.
:21:31. > :21:35.Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most
:21:36. > :21:39.difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions
:21:40. > :21:50.to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept
:21:51. > :21:55.their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other
:21:56. > :21:59.costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I
:22:00. > :22:10.and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of
:22:11. > :22:17.VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some
:22:18. > :22:23.are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments
:22:24. > :22:29.include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up
:22:30. > :22:36.by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:37. > :22:39.chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:40. > :22:52.changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have
:22:53. > :22:57.said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,
:22:58. > :23:00.we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in
:23:01. > :23:06.court, facing a criminal charge, where they haven't got a lawyer to
:23:07. > :23:11.defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have
:23:12. > :23:16.managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people
:23:17. > :23:28.for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to
:23:29. > :23:33.be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the
:23:34. > :23:39.number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you
:23:40. > :23:43.put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.
:23:44. > :23:49.We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will
:23:50. > :23:53.end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more
:23:54. > :23:58.appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards
:23:59. > :24:03.longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is
:24:04. > :24:10.even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again
:24:11. > :24:15.and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite
:24:16. > :24:24.having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail
:24:25. > :24:28.despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to
:24:29. > :24:34.toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You
:24:35. > :24:40.could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped
:24:41. > :24:41.repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two-year
:24:42. > :24:47.same offence twice within a two year period you will go to court. You
:24:48. > :24:55.still might end up not going to jail. More and more people are going
:24:56. > :24:57.to jail. I cannot just magic another 34,000 prison places. You haven't
:24:58. > :25:04.34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?
:25:05. > :25:09.The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the
:25:10. > :25:15.decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail
:25:16. > :25:20.sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the
:25:21. > :25:25.most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if
:25:26. > :25:30.you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's
:25:31. > :25:37.right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick
:25:38. > :25:45.Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare
:25:46. > :25:49.cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the
:25:50. > :25:58.lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these
:25:59. > :26:03.cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look
:26:04. > :26:11.at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,
:26:12. > :26:17.after people have left school or college, the live for a time with
:26:18. > :26:21.their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take
:26:22. > :26:25.that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying
:26:26. > :26:30.you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the
:26:31. > :26:33.road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by
:26:34. > :26:41.definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a
:26:42. > :26:47.case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the
:26:48. > :26:51.cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax
:26:52. > :26:53.rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last
:26:54. > :27:03.government. The amount of tax... government. The amount of tax..
:27:04. > :27:07.There is no more expected of the rich. We will clearly look at future
:27:08. > :27:11.policy and work out how best to distribute the tax burden in this
:27:12. > :27:17.country and it is not for me to second-guess George Osborne's future
:27:18. > :27:22.plans, but we need to look at for example housing benefit for the
:27:23. > :27:28.under 25s. Is it right for those who are not working for the state to
:27:29. > :27:33.provide accommodation for them? Thank you for being with us.
:27:34. > :27:36.All three major parties at Westminster agree there's an urgent
:27:37. > :27:38.need to build more homes for Britain's growing population. But
:27:39. > :27:42.how they get built, and where, looks set to become a major battle ground
:27:43. > :27:43.in the run-up to the next general election.
:27:44. > :27:46.Although 16% more house-builds were started in 2012/13 than the previous
:27:47. > :27:54.year, the number actually completed fell by 8% - the lowest level in
:27:55. > :27:57.peacetime since 1920. The Office for National Statistics estimates that
:27:58. > :28:04.between now and 2021 we should expect 220,000 new households to be
:28:05. > :28:06.created every year. At his party's conference last autumn, Ed Miliband
:28:07. > :28:15.promised a Labour government would massively increase house-building. I
:28:16. > :28:20.will have a clear aim but by the end of the parliament, Britain will be
:28:21. > :28:25.building 200,000 homes per year, more than at any time for a
:28:26. > :28:28.generation. That is how we make Britain better than this. The Labour
:28:29. > :28:31.leader also says he'd give urban councils a "right to grow" so rural
:28:32. > :28:36.neighbours can't block expansion and force developers with unused land to
:28:37. > :28:38.use it or lose it. The Government has been pursuing its own ideas,
:28:39. > :28:43.including loan guarantees for developers and a new homes bonus to
:28:44. > :28:46.boost new house-building. But David Cameron could have trouble keeping
:28:47. > :28:48.his supporters on side - this week the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi
:28:49. > :28:55.criticised planning reforms for causing "physical harm" to the
:28:56. > :28:58.countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile prefers a radical solution - brand
:28:59. > :29:12.new garden cities in the south east of England. In a speech tomorrow,
:29:13. > :29:15.Labour's shadow housing minister Emma Reynolds will give more details
:29:16. > :29:18.of how Labour would boost house-building, and she joins me
:29:19. > :29:22.now. It is not the politicians to blame, it is the lack of
:29:23. > :29:29.house-builders? We want a vibrant building industry, and at the moment
:29:30. > :29:33.that industry is dominated by big house-builders. I want to see a more
:29:34. > :29:38.diverse and competitive industry, where self build plays a greater
:29:39. > :29:45.role. In France over 60% of new homes are built by self builders,
:29:46. > :29:49.but small builders build more homes as well. 25 years ago they were
:29:50. > :29:54.building two thirds of new homes, now they are not building even a
:29:55. > :29:58.third of new homes. That's because land policies have been so
:29:59. > :30:03.restrictive that it is only the big companies who can afford to buy the
:30:04. > :30:07.land, so little land is being released for house building. I
:30:08. > :30:11.agree, there are some fundamental structural problems with the land
:30:12. > :30:14.market and that is why we have said there doesn't just need to be
:30:15. > :30:20.tinkering around the edges, there needs to be real reforms to make
:30:21. > :30:23.sure that small builders and self build and custom-built have access
:30:24. > :30:28.to land. They are saying they have problems with access to land and
:30:29. > :30:35.finance. At the end of the day it will not be self, small builders who
:30:36. > :30:40.reach your target, it will be big builders. I think it is pretty
:30:41. > :30:48.shameful that in Western Europe the new houses built in the UK are
:30:49. > :30:53.smaller than our neighbours. But isn't not the land problem? France
:30:54. > :31:01.is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and we are and that is not a problem for
:31:02. > :31:06.them. There is a perception we are going to build on the countryside,
:31:07. > :31:15.but not even 10% is on the countryside. There is enough for us
:31:16. > :31:19.to have our golf courses. There is enough other land for us to build on
:31:20. > :31:23.that is not golf courses. The planning minister has said he wants
:31:24. > :31:27.to build our National Parks, I am not suggesting that. The single
:31:28. > :31:32.biggest land border is the public sector. It is not. There are great
:31:33. > :31:38.opportunities for releasing public land, that is why I have been asking
:31:39. > :31:42.the government, they say they are going to release and of public land
:31:43. > :31:47.for tens of thousands of new homes to be built, but they say they are
:31:48. > :31:53.not monitoring how many houses are being built on the site. When your
:31:54. > :31:59.leader says to landowners, housing development owners, either use the
:32:00. > :32:06.land or lose it, in what way will they lose it? Will you confiscated?
:32:07. > :32:10.This is about strengthening the hand of local authorities, and they say
:32:11. > :32:13.to us that in some cases, house-builders are sitting on land.
:32:14. > :32:20.In those cases, we would give the power to local authorities to
:32:21. > :32:26.escalate fees. This would be the compulsory purchase orders, a matter
:32:27. > :32:33.of last resort, and you would hope that by strengthening the hand of
:32:34. > :32:36.local authorities, you could get the house-builders to start building the
:32:37. > :32:42.homes that people want. Would you compulsory purchase it? We would
:32:43. > :32:48.give the local authority as a last resort, after escalating the fees,
:32:49. > :32:51.the possibility and flexible it is to use the compulsory purchase
:32:52. > :32:55.orders to sell the land on to a house builder who wants to build
:32:56. > :32:59.houses that we need. Can you name one report that has come back in
:33:00. > :33:02.recent years that shows that hoarding of land by house-builders
:33:03. > :33:07.is a major problem? The IMF, the Conservative mayor of London and the
:33:08. > :33:10.Local Government Association are telling us that there is a problem
:33:11. > :33:14.with land hoarding. Therefore, we have said, where there is land with
:33:15. > :33:20.planning permission, and if plots are being sat on... Boris Johnson
:33:21. > :33:24.says there are 180,000 plots in London being sat on. We need to make
:33:25. > :33:32.sure the house-builders are building the homes that young families need.
:33:33. > :33:34.They get planning permission and sell it on to the developer. There
:33:35. > :33:36.is a whole degree of complicity, sell it on to the developer. There
:33:37. > :33:37.is a whole degree of complicity but is a whole degree of complicity, but
:33:38. > :33:42.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency
:33:43. > :33:47.about land options. There is agricultural land that
:33:48. > :33:53.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.
:33:54. > :33:59.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the
:34:00. > :34:04.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most
:34:05. > :34:07.reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to
:34:08. > :34:15.force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to
:34:16. > :34:23.grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we
:34:24. > :34:26.want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they
:34:27. > :34:32.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes, but
:34:33. > :34:36.they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do
:34:37. > :34:39.not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with
:34:40. > :34:44.the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at
:34:45. > :34:47.?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is
:34:48. > :34:53.blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national
:34:54. > :35:00.interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot
:35:01. > :35:06.mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new
:35:07. > :35:07.homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be
:35:08. > :35:13.built, and in areas like Oxford, built, and in areas like Oxford
:35:14. > :35:14.Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:15. > :35:37.interest does have to be served, with Michael Lyons? The national
:35:38. > :35:43.will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can
:35:44. > :35:47.incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new
:35:48. > :35:52.towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will
:35:53. > :35:54.have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not
:35:55. > :36:00.at the historic figures overall not at the moment, Private Housing
:36:01. > :36:04.building is only just beginning to recover, but it has been pretty
:36:05. > :36:07.steady for a while. The big difference between house-building
:36:08. > :36:11.now and in the past, since Mrs Thatcher came to power a and
:36:12. > :36:16.including the Tony Blair government, we did not build council houses.
:36:17. > :36:21.Almost none. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council
:36:22. > :36:29.has programme? We inherited housing stock back in 1997... This is
:36:30. > :36:33.important. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council
:36:34. > :36:35.has programme? We have called on this government to bring forward
:36:36. > :36:42.investment in social housing. We want to see an investment programme
:36:43. > :36:47.in social housing, I cannot give you the figures now. We are 18 months
:36:48. > :36:50.away from the election. Will the next Labour government embark on a
:36:51. > :36:55.major council house Northern programme? I want to see a council
:36:56. > :37:00.house building programme, because there is a big shortage of council
:37:01. > :37:07.homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got there in the end. -- that is a yes?
:37:08. > :37:14.We will be talking to Patrick homes in the West Midlands in a moment.
:37:15. > :37:17.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:18. > :37:34.this is the Sunday Politics in the ahead with our political panel
:37:35. > :37:38.this is the Sunday Politics in the South`East. Coming up, do pdople on
:37:39. > :37:46.housing benefit make had tenants? The biggest landlord in Kent says
:37:47. > :37:50.too many tenants on housing benefit default on their rents. Is ht just
:37:51. > :38:00.default on their rents. Is it just business or is he totally hdartless?
:38:01. > :38:04.Welcome to you both. Thank you. Before we looking at people losing
:38:05. > :38:07.their homes through flooding and eviction, I want to know wh`t these
:38:08. > :38:12.eviction, I want to know what these to think over the past couple of
:38:13. > :38:15.months. Keeping it relevant to the South East, emigration, airport
:38:16. > :38:23.expansion, or something enthrely expansion, or something entirely
:38:24. > :38:25.different? Before Christmas it was heartless of East Sussex Cotnty
:38:26. > :38:28.Council conservatives to get rid of two centres of excellence c`re
:38:29. > :38:31.two centres of excellence care centres for dementia patients. This
:38:32. > :38:34.matters because these are high matters because these are hhgh
:38:35. > :38:38.quality care centres and we're losing not just experienced staff
:38:39. > :38:45.but it is affecting vulnerable adults. What has been the bhggest
:38:46. > :38:47.issue for you in the past month? We were told we would have millions of
:38:48. > :38:52.the many and beginnings here by now, the many and beginnings herd by now,
:38:53. > :38:56.this was supposed to be heading us, tens of thousands in France, ready
:38:57. > :38:59.to pounce when a New Year struck, and that did not happen. Pldnty of
:39:00. > :39:04.time yet. The parties of the far time yet. The parties of the far
:39:05. > :39:06.right raise the spheres of foreigners without any basis for it
:39:07. > :39:15.at all. It has been a disgrace. `` at all. It has been a disgr`ce. ``
:39:16. > :39:17.raise these fears of. Christmas was cancelled for many people in Kent
:39:18. > :39:19.because of flooding with some because of flooding with sole
:39:20. > :39:23.hundred homes inundated and people trapped in flats because of lifts
:39:24. > :39:34.breaking and the water just get rising. It reached well over one
:39:35. > :39:38.metre in part of Yalding. The South East bore the brunt of the worst
:39:39. > :39:45.storms for 50 years. For many people, Christmas was cancelled
:39:46. > :39:47.When the River Medway and abilities burst their banks on Christlas Eve,
:39:48. > :39:52.burst their banks on Christmas Eve, the Kent village of Yalding was
:39:53. > :39:53.devastated. David Cameron arrived three days later to survey the
:39:54. > :40:02.extent of the damage and tempers extent of the damage and tempers
:40:03. > :40:06.flared. Nothing is being done. Being on the confluence of three rivers,
:40:07. > :40:08.Yalding is no stranger to flooding. The last flood on this scale
:40:09. > :40:12.Yalding is no stranger to flooding. The last flood on this scald was in
:40:13. > :40:17.the year 2000. This time, locals say that official communication was poor
:40:18. > :40:23.and that rescue teams came too late. In 2000 we had the police, the fire
:40:24. > :40:27.brigade and the army to help, we had buses in fact you to people,
:40:28. > :40:32.sandbags being delivered Abbey rep, and this time, there was nothing.
:40:33. > :40:35.People lost homes, cars and everything and there was no help.
:40:36. > :40:41.For some, the loss was too luch to For some, the loss was too much to
:40:42. > :40:46.bear. I have lost, my whole life has gone, I have worked all my life and
:40:47. > :40:51.everything I have got that was in my home, has gone. When we got up on
:40:52. > :40:59.Christmas morning, the water level was up to here. Everything was
:41:00. > :41:03.soaking. This man rescued 30 people using a canoe. He waded through
:41:04. > :41:06.freezing flood waters and evacuated stranded locals to safety. And
:41:07. > :41:06.freezing flood waters and evacuated stranded locals to safety. @nd what
:41:07. > :41:07.stranded locals to safety. And what help that you have from the
:41:08. > :41:14.authorities? None. I ask thd parish authorities? None. I ask thd parish
:41:15. > :41:16.council about sandbags at about one o'clock and I was told that don t
:41:17. > :41:21.o'clock and I was told that don't you understand, it is Christmas
:41:22. > :41:24.They are on leave. There was not a lot of understanding. We was all
:41:25. > :41:30.suffering. We have all suffered. suffering. We have all suffdred
:41:31. > :41:32.This side of the water more than the other, but we have all suffdred and
:41:33. > :41:34.it is time that we pull together and it is time that we pull togdther and
:41:35. > :41:35.learned that communication is it is time that we pull together and
:41:36. > :41:35.learned that communication hs key it is time that we pull togdther and
:41:36. > :41:39.learned that communication is key to learned that communication is key to
:41:40. > :41:45.this. Responding to this situation is complicated. It relies on the
:41:46. > :41:47.Environment Agency and organisations like councils and the voluntary
:41:48. > :41:49.sector. Local authorities have like councils and the voluntary
:41:50. > :41:52.sector. Local authorities have been given more responsibility for
:41:53. > :41:54.identifying flood risks and raising money to defend against flooding.
:41:55. > :41:58.This week, the Prime Ministdr said This week, the Prime Minister said
:41:59. > :42:02.the Government was keen to leave in more council cash for flood the
:42:03. > :42:07.fences alongside contributions from private bodies. Now officials are
:42:08. > :42:13.asking questions about what happened at Christmas. Maidstone MP Helen
:42:14. > :42:17.Grant once a multi`agency round table and next week, Kent County
:42:18. > :42:22.Council will hold a crisis meeting. There were mistakes, you had Marine
:42:23. > :42:25.police turning up without boats, people from the Environment Agency
:42:26. > :42:28.not checking houses because there were no lights on, and that was
:42:29. > :42:33.because there was no power. Maidstone Borough Council is
:42:34. > :42:38.notorious for being incompetent anyway, but it had its telephone
:42:39. > :42:40.lines on an answering machine. The irony is that there were lots of
:42:41. > :42:48.hard`working staff working late but nobody had thought at senior level
:42:49. > :42:51.`` senior management level to change the answering machine messages, so
:42:52. > :42:56.lots of people just hung up. People feel insecure, in a crisis, and in
:42:57. > :43:03.some places it can be a matter of life and death, and it is a miracle
:43:04. > :43:06.that nobody died, here. This comes against a backdrop of cuts to local
:43:07. > :43:07.council budgets and to the Environment Agency which pl`ns to
:43:08. > :43:10.Environment Agency which plans to axe 1500 jobs. The government
:43:11. > :43:14.insists the cuts will not h`ve an insists the cuts will not h`ve an
:43:15. > :43:16.impact on provision for front line flood defences in future, but
:43:17. > :43:16.impact on provision for front line flood defences in future, btt Mike
:43:17. > :43:22.flood defences in future, but Mike Clancy, for the trade union who
:43:23. > :43:26.represents the staff, sees things differently. People can see the
:43:27. > :43:30.pictures on television and if we pictures on television and hf we
:43:31. > :43:33.continue to cut staff and assets, then there will be only one
:43:34. > :43:36.consequence, more damage to the community and more economic damage
:43:37. > :43:40.of trying to recover in the aftermath. Communities pulled
:43:41. > :43:42.aftermath. Communities pulldd together 60 years ago when the South
:43:43. > :43:44.East was under water and amhd together 60 years ago when the South
:43:45. > :43:46.East was under water and amid all East was under water and amid all
:43:47. > :43:50.the questions, one thing is for sure, this has happened before, and
:43:51. > :43:54.it will happen again. Whilst residents felt lonely this
:43:55. > :44:00.Christmas, will lessons be learned for the next time? We are joined by
:44:01. > :44:04.Paul Carter, the Conservative leader of Kent County Council. Some
:44:05. > :44:04.Paul Carter, the Conservative leader of Kent County Council. Somd of the
:44:05. > :44:06.of Kent County Council. Some of the residents in Yalding talked about
:44:07. > :44:13.the emergency response been too late, not enough warnings, council
:44:14. > :44:17.phones not being manned, behng on answerphone. But one question, did
:44:18. > :44:22.the flood have to be that b`d? Did the flood have to be that bad? Did
:44:23. > :44:27.something go wrong at the flood barrier in bondage? First of all I
:44:28. > :44:32.have enormous sympathy for those who had their homes flooded,
:44:33. > :44:36.particularly those who could not get flood insurance. We have enormous
:44:37. > :44:37.problems there. The emergency operation and recovery oper`tion
:44:38. > :44:43.operation and recovery operation went very well. We have had so many
:44:44. > :44:49.people say that we were sacrificed. Do we know if it worked not? We need
:44:50. > :44:52.to look at evidence from the to look at evidence from thd
:44:53. > :44:57.Environment Agency. I am told that the reservoir on Christmas Eve was
:44:58. > :44:58.virtually empty and it had filled up by about five o'clock that dvening.
:44:59. > :45:03.by about five o'clock that evening. And if the flow of water into the
:45:04. > :45:07.reservoir was greater than the water you can get out of it, and the
:45:08. > :45:14.floodgates open, they have got a good defence. But there are
:45:15. > :45:18.questions. I don't know the answer, but I have talked to the Environment
:45:19. > :45:22.Agency, and I would like to see the evidence of how they managed the
:45:23. > :45:25.barrier on Christmas Eve. I will support them to the hilt, if they
:45:26. > :45:28.have got the evidence to produce that shows that they managed it as
:45:29. > :45:33.sensibly and intelligently as sensibly and intelligently `s
:45:34. > :45:41.possible. Generally, I think the emergency recovery plans went
:45:42. > :45:42.exceptionally well. Residents had sandbags turn up on Christm`s
:45:43. > :45:42.exceptionally well. Residents had sandbags turn up on Christmas Day
:45:43. > :45:46.sandbags turn up on Christm`s Day morning. That was too late. Flood
:45:47. > :45:47.warnings went out on Christmas Eve, and most houses were flooded by
:45:48. > :45:52.then. There were some sandb`gs in then. There were some sandbags in
:45:53. > :45:54.Yalding but with the best whll in Yalding but with the best whll in
:45:55. > :45:56.the world, more sandbags would Yalding but with the best will in
:45:57. > :45:58.the world, more sandbags would not make have a lot of difference to the
:45:59. > :46:03.houses I had visited since Christmas Day. We have got to look at how we
:46:04. > :46:11.can build affordable flood defences that protect Yalding. We need to get
:46:12. > :46:12.together a funding package with a bit of help from national
:46:13. > :46:17.government. Despite this era of government. Despite this er` of
:46:18. > :46:22.austerity, we are very lucky to get significant money from the coalition
:46:23. > :46:26.to build the sandwich flood defences. You want a specifhc flood
:46:27. > :46:31.defences. You want a specific flood defence for Yalding. The government
:46:32. > :46:37.is giving more money to loc`l is giving more money to loc`l
:46:38. > :46:39.authorities. Can you afford it? The sandwich defences helped whdn we had
:46:40. > :46:40.sandwich defences helped when we had sea flooding before Christm`s. We
:46:41. > :46:43.have put in a substantial part, sea flooding before Christmas. We
:46:44. > :46:45.have put in a substantial p`rt, and have put in a substantial part, and
:46:46. > :46:51.50% came from national government. We are going to have to look at our
:46:52. > :46:53.programmes. We are spending ?250 million on capital programmds. If
:46:54. > :46:56.million on capital programmes. If the Government is prepared to get
:46:57. > :47:02.their cheque`books out, and we have a scheme that we noble work and
:47:03. > :47:10.protect `` that we know will work and protect Yalding village, it is
:47:11. > :47:11.estimated at ?24 million. Serotonin, you have worked in emergencx
:47:12. > :47:14.you have worked in emergency planning. Did that look likd a good
:47:15. > :47:18.planning. Did that look like a good example of a coordinated response?
:47:19. > :47:22.The short answer is no, it did not. What most people needed, and I echo
:47:23. > :47:26.those simple feast of peopld who those simple feast of people who
:47:27. > :47:28.have lost their homes, they do not need David Cameron turning tp
:47:29. > :47:28.have lost their homes, they do not need David Cameron turning up on
:47:29. > :47:28.have lost their homes, they do not need David Cameron turning tp on a
:47:29. > :47:31.need David Cameron turning up on a publicity stunt three days later.
:47:32. > :47:39.What they need is proper defence systems in place. They need David
:47:40. > :47:40.Cameron, the coalition and the Conservatives to take
:47:41. > :47:41.responsibility. When you cut ?5 0 responsibility. When you cut ?500
:47:42. > :47:46.million from uncivil `` frol the million from uncivil `` frol the
:47:47. > :47:52.department responsible for flooding, when things go wrong, the key plans
:47:53. > :47:58.will not be in place. What do you say, Damien? We need a proper
:47:59. > :47:58.will not be in place. What do you say, Damien? We need a propdr study
:47:59. > :47:59.of what happened and what lessons of what happened and what lessons
:48:00. > :48:03.are to be learned, but the hmportant are to be learned, but the important
:48:04. > :48:06.thing is, people want to know, is this going to happen again? We asked
:48:07. > :48:09.ending more on flood defences than ending more on flood defencds than
:48:10. > :48:14.the Labour Party spent, and in the autumn statement the Governlent gave
:48:15. > :48:20.an extra ?120 million to go into flood defences. The Government
:48:21. > :48:22.expects local authorities to come up with this when their funding is
:48:23. > :48:25.being capped by central government, being capped by central govdrnment,
:48:26. > :48:30.they are being urged not to raise council tax, so where are they
:48:31. > :48:36.supposed to find the money to do that? The government needs to double
:48:37. > :48:38.its spending on for defences to ?1 billion per year, and meanwhile, the
:48:39. > :48:43.billion per year, and meanwhile the Environment Agency budget is being
:48:44. > :48:46.cut. The Environment Agency is the primary agency to deliver flood
:48:47. > :48:50.defence work. They have been given more money by this government than
:48:51. > :48:54.the last government, so the investment is going through. There
:48:55. > :49:03.was another key point about local coordination. My constituency,
:49:04. > :49:07.coastal flooding is the big concern. They work throughout the year,
:49:08. > :49:12.anticipating problems, getthng local anticipating problems, getting local
:49:13. > :49:15.agencies to work throughout the year and it problems and we need to look
:49:16. > :49:20.at that sort of grassroots planning in partnership with councils and the
:49:21. > :49:24.Environment Agency. We are looking at the response times. People were
:49:25. > :49:29.critical that they did not see the police and the fire services, two
:49:30. > :49:34.emergency services that are vital when there was flooding. The County
:49:35. > :49:38.Council is illegal authoritx responding to the floods. You have
:49:39. > :49:42.heard criticisms. Is it too complicated? One Christmas Eve and
:49:43. > :49:42.complicated? One Christmas Dve and Christmas Day, the emergency
:49:43. > :49:46.Christmas Day, the emergencx services, Kent Fire and rescue and
:49:47. > :49:49.the police were working, ev`cuating the police were working, evacuating
:49:50. > :49:55.people from the caravan park as well as other homes. They saved lives
:49:56. > :50:01.alongside volunteers who were there and numbers. Last week I met the St
:50:02. > :50:05.John's anglers and the Red Cross, who had an enormous number of
:50:06. > :50:09.volunteers, and the Salvation Army, helping and supporting the
:50:10. > :50:15.evacuation process. And I think they did a marvellous job. There will be
:50:16. > :50:20.lots of questions in future about where we build houses, which takes
:50:21. > :50:25.us on to the next subject. Fergus Wilson is one Briton's private
:50:26. > :50:26.landlords with over 1000 properties in Maidstone and Ashford. Hd
:50:27. > :50:27.landlords with over 1000 properties in Maidstone and Ashford. He has
:50:28. > :50:30.landlords with over 1000 properties in Maidstone and Ashford. Hd has a
:50:31. > :50:34.big 200 individuals and families in the last 12 months for one reason,
:50:35. > :50:41.they are on housing benefit. Here is his explanation. With the tdnants,
:50:42. > :50:48.there has not been one who has defaulted, but those on bendfits,
:50:49. > :50:58.there was 50% default. They perhaps cannot help it, but I am not the
:50:59. > :51:03.DSS. Fergus Wilson says he's not the only landlord avoiding tenants who
:51:04. > :51:08.are on welfare. Are there other private landlords turning away from
:51:09. > :51:12.tenants who are on benefits? I'm afraid so. The welfare reform agenda
:51:13. > :51:17.has shown that benefit levels of not kept up with rent levels, so from
:51:18. > :51:20.our quarterly survey to landlords, we found that in 2010 the ntmbers
:51:21. > :51:24.we found that in 2010 the numbers saying they would let to tenants on
:51:25. > :51:26.benefits was about 46%, and in the last survey in the third qu`rter of
:51:27. > :51:34.last survey in the third quarter of last year, that was down, so it has
:51:35. > :51:35.more than halved. Clearly, there are other options, other people that
:51:36. > :51:43.these people can rent to. Landlords these people can rent to. Landlords
:51:44. > :51:46.will be thinking about risk. They will be worried about the tdnant not
:51:47. > :51:49.being able to pay the rent. If there is an adequate supply of tenants who
:51:50. > :51:53.are working and able to manage their are working and able to man`ge their
:51:54. > :51:56.responsibilities, those are the ones that landlords will look to first,
:51:57. > :51:59.because they simply want less hassle. You talk about the rent
:52:00. > :52:03.distancing itself from housing distancing itself from housing
:52:04. > :52:06.benefit, it is people like Fergus Wilson who are to blame. Whx do they
:52:07. > :52:11.Wilson who are to blame. Why do they keep putting the rent up? The
:52:12. > :52:18.housing market drives rent. That is a misnomer. I said that the gap
:52:19. > :52:20.between these two is caused by rates going up, so why do landlords keep
:52:21. > :52:24.putting rent up? Rent goes up putting rent up? Rent goes tp
:52:25. > :52:29.because there was a shortage of supply of housing, lots of people
:52:30. > :52:34.looking for housing. Not because landlords are greedy? No, bdcause
:52:35. > :52:36.they're are shortage of supply and people are beating the price up.
:52:37. > :52:36.they're are shortage of supply and people are beating the pricd up If
:52:37. > :52:41.people are beating the price up. If you look across the housing market,
:52:42. > :52:44.all forms of housing are increasing in price and because benefits are
:52:45. > :52:48.being held back, they are not keeping up with market demand, so
:52:49. > :52:54.people are being put in a more difficult position, who are on
:52:55. > :52:58.benefit. Let's find out what our guests sting. Fergus Wilson, a
:52:59. > :53:05.businessman who has ended up, as he told me on BBC Radio London, down
:53:06. > :53:11.?800,000 because of rent arrears. It is just business, isn't it? I do
:53:12. > :53:17.think anyone is going to be crying over Fergus Wilson's bank accounts.
:53:18. > :53:20.I totally disagree. There is this rhetoric and the Conservatives are
:53:21. > :53:24.to blame for this, that people on housing benefit are not in work,
:53:25. > :53:26.when seven out of eight people in receipt of housing benefit `re
:53:27. > :53:27.receipt of housing benefit are working people who cannot m`ke ends
:53:28. > :53:30.working people who cannot make ends meet. This is a cost of livhng
:53:31. > :53:33.crisis. Particularly in the South`East, where we have seen wages
:53:34. > :53:37.South`East, where we have sden wages falling by 2000 and pounds `` ?2000
:53:38. > :53:43.falling by 2000 and pounds `` ? 000 in the past three years. This is a
:53:44. > :53:46.man with multiple millions who are in work, whether they are rent
:53:47. > :53:51.in work, whether they are rdnt arrears or not, who is expelling is
:53:52. > :53:57.`` who evict tenants. Do yot agree `` who evict tenants. Do you agree
:53:58. > :54:03.with that? I think that landlords should care about the quality of
:54:04. > :54:07.tenants, there are people, good tenants and bad tenants, of all
:54:08. > :54:08.income scales. I think we have to look seriously at the way that
:54:09. > :54:11.certain private landlords bdhave. look seriously at the way that
:54:12. > :54:17.certain private landlords bdhave. My concern is less with Fergus Wilson
:54:18. > :54:18.than with rogue, absentee private landlords we keep properties in a
:54:19. > :54:23.shocking state and abuse thdir shocking state and abuse their
:54:24. > :54:28.tenants knowing that people will not doing much about it. But people on
:54:29. > :54:31.benefits are going to end up renting from those people. Fergus Wilson is
:54:32. > :54:36.from those people. Fergus Whlson is right that we need more supply. We
:54:37. > :54:41.need more houses built by housing associations. In East Kent, we have
:54:42. > :54:45.East Kent building new council houses. Just not on flood plains,
:54:46. > :54:48.right? There is land where ht houses. Just not on flood plains,
:54:49. > :54:48.right? There is land where it can houses. Just not on flood plains,
:54:49. > :54:54.right? There is land where it can be built. We need to give tenants more
:54:55. > :54:55.choice. Let's rattle through some of the options to try and solvd this
:54:56. > :55:00.the options to try and solve this problem. One of them is to hncrease
:55:01. > :55:06.housing benefit. You have got rent at a certain level. This guy thinks
:55:07. > :55:11.that housing benefit is not enough to cover rent. Is there an argument
:55:12. > :55:16.to cover rent. Is there an `rgument that housing benefit should be
:55:17. > :55:17.higher? All parties agree that there is a housing benefit cap. Wd have
:55:18. > :55:24.is a housing benefit cap. We have got to look a lot bigger, at the
:55:25. > :55:29.issue. I have touched on it with the cost of living crisis. 23,000 people
:55:30. > :55:32.in Hastings, currently in debt. Quick answers on this. We are not
:55:33. > :55:36.going to increase housing bdnefit, going to increase housing benefit,
:55:37. > :55:41.what about paying rent directly to the landlord? That was a ch`nge that
:55:42. > :55:44.came in under this government, and we said if there are issues of
:55:45. > :55:49.concern that landlords and tenants that it needs to be constantly
:55:50. > :55:51.reviewed. We can look at direct payments to landlords, I think it
:55:52. > :55:53.should be used as an incenthve where should be used as an incentive where
:55:54. > :55:57.the landlord keeps the propdrty at a the landlord keeps the property at a
:55:58. > :56:01.decent level. Also through credit unions people can set up accounts
:56:02. > :56:02.whereby rent is ring fenced to go to the landlord. Good social tenants
:56:03. > :56:06.the landlord. Good social tdnants are good tennis because effectively,
:56:07. > :56:09.are good tennis because effdctively, the state is providing a large part
:56:10. > :56:10.of their rent guarantee through housing benefit and many landlords
:56:11. > :56:19.are happy to work with houshng are happy to work with housing
:56:20. > :56:21.benefit through that. The other thing was rent being controlled.
:56:22. > :56:26.Just because House prices go up you Just because House prices go up you
:56:27. > :56:30.do not have to put rent up. I think we're getting back to the 70s with
:56:31. > :56:34.rent controls, that is not going to work. If rent is going up too much
:56:35. > :56:38.it is because there are too many people chasing properties and there
:56:39. > :56:41.are not enough properties for them. It is not the case to say that it
:56:42. > :56:44.does not work, it works in New York City, where property prices are
:56:45. > :56:48.incredibly high. The South East City, where property prices are
:56:49. > :56:48.incredibly high. The South Dast has incredibly high. The South Dast has
:56:49. > :56:49.a particularly acute problem. In a particularly acute problem. In
:56:50. > :56:53.places like Hastings and Ryd, you places like Hastings and Ryd, you
:56:54. > :56:57.have got low wages and property have got low wages and property
:56:58. > :56:59.prices creeping up and people being priced out of the property larket
:57:00. > :57:05.priced out of the property market completely. Let's come back to what
:57:06. > :57:06.this means for a community. It is a form of social cleansing to say that
:57:07. > :57:08.poorer people are not welcole form of social cleansing to say that
:57:09. > :57:15.poorer people are not welcome in these homes. There are things that
:57:16. > :57:16.we're doing now matter stem this problem. Hastings Borough Council
:57:17. > :57:19.has run a successful local `uthority has run a successful local authority
:57:20. > :57:22.mortgage scheme to get people that can afford to buy out of thd rental
:57:23. > :57:28.can afford to buy out of the rental market... It is important to think
:57:29. > :57:34.that some people will probably have to rent, all of their lives. One
:57:35. > :57:40.private landlord might have lots of properties scattered over an area.
:57:41. > :57:45.We want mixed communities. But more and more of them say that they feel
:57:46. > :57:47.like that. We need more supply in the market, giving tenants lore
:57:48. > :57:49.the market, giving tenants more choice and more power. We nded to do
:57:50. > :57:53.more through the Help To Buy scheme more through the Help To Bux scheme
:57:54. > :57:54.to help people who are long`term tenants to buy their home, rather
:57:55. > :58:01.than rent it. Time for a rotnd`up of than rent it. Time for a round`up of
:58:02. > :58:07.the other political events that you might have missed this week.
:58:08. > :58:14.It is an unhappy New Year for the Chatham historic dockyard. Hts bid
:58:15. > :58:18.to be the next UK candidate for UNESCO world Heritage status failed
:58:19. > :58:19.this week. The government instead put forward the Lake District
:58:20. > :58:23.National Park. The annual rail fare National Park. The annual rail fare
:58:24. > :58:27.increase might have been less hard`hitting than usual but rail
:58:28. > :58:31.bosses have been accused of daylight robbery for above inflation rises to
:58:32. > :58:38.car parking charges. In Haywards Heath, an annual ticket costs over
:58:39. > :58:41.?1100, a 5% increase. It is a double whammy for hard`pressed comluters.
:58:42. > :58:44.The new chief constable of Kent, The new chief constable of Kent
:58:45. > :58:50.Alun Pusey, has his work cut out. One of his first jobs is to reduce
:58:51. > :58:51.the budget of his force by ?20 million, which he thinks cotld
:58:52. > :58:55.relate to 100 jobs of officers. million, which he thinks could
:58:56. > :58:58.relate to 100 jobs of officdrs. I relate to 100 jobs of officers. I
:58:59. > :58:59.will take as much of that money out of non`people savings as I possibly
:59:00. > :59:11.can. Lots of people will feel aggrieved
:59:12. > :59:17.by that double whammy of the by that double whammy of thd
:59:18. > :59:21.increase in parking charges at railway stations. In Kent wd have
:59:22. > :59:24.some of the first ?5,000 commutes some of the first ?5,000 colmutes
:59:25. > :59:27.from towns like Ramsgate and Dover. I don't know what the journdy from
:59:28. > :59:36.I don't know what the journey from Hastings is. It is around ?4,00
:59:37. > :59:39.mark. Can it be justified to charge people that much for parking on top
:59:40. > :59:44.of their rail fares? Now, we are seeing people being priced out of
:59:45. > :59:45.their homes, and public transport, which completely negates thd
:59:46. > :59:47.their homes, and public transport, which completely negates the point.
:59:48. > :59:51.You should look at it in thd round, You should look at it in the round,
:59:52. > :59:58.we have some of the lowest priced railway station car parks covered by
:59:59. > :59:59.this, southeastern trains franchise. Historically prices have been quite
:00:00. > :00:04.Historically prices have bedn quite low, and the price increase this
:00:05. > :00:08.year was the lowest for a number of year was the lowest for a number of
:00:09. > :00:14.years. With government support, we can keep prices lower. That is all
:00:15. > :00:17.we have got time for. Thank you to my guests. Natalie will be here next
:00:18. > :00:19.week with more politics frol my guests. Natalie will be here next
:00:20. > :00:20.week with more politics from the week with more politics frol the
:00:21. > :00:26.South`East. will not be revoked. And I wouldn't
:00:27. > :00:36.want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to
:00:41. > :00:49.satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the
:00:50. > :00:54.tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.
:00:55. > :01:00.We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.
:01:01. > :01:07.Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed
:01:08. > :01:10.this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically
:01:11. > :01:18.elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with
:01:19. > :01:29.a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what
:01:30. > :01:32.Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural
:01:33. > :01:35.body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to
:01:36. > :01:42.do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force
:01:43. > :01:45.-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to
:01:46. > :01:46.participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we
:01:47. > :01:52.signed up to it and came in in 973. signed up to it and came in in 1973.
:01:53. > :01:57.It has accreted powers to itself without having the support of the
:01:58. > :02:01.public of the member states. This is just a way of preparing the ground
:02:02. > :02:06.for you to get out of Europe altogether, isn't it? I do not big
:02:07. > :02:11.so. There is a role for an organisation that does some
:02:12. > :02:16.coordination and that has trade agreements within it, I do not think
:02:17. > :02:20.there is a role for a federal state. Europe seems to be dominating the. I
:02:21. > :02:25.remember your leader telling you not to bang on about Europe, your
:02:26. > :02:30.backbench colleagues seem to have ignored that. Would you like to
:02:31. > :02:38.restrict the flow of EU migrants to come to work in this country? Yes. I
:02:39. > :02:42.think we should have control of our own borders, so we can decide who we
:02:43. > :02:46.want to admit for the whole world. What we have at the moment is a
:02:47. > :02:49.restrictive control of people coming from anywhere other than the EU.
:02:50. > :02:52.from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the
:02:53. > :02:57.number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures
:02:58. > :03:03.are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.
:03:04. > :03:06.Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we
:03:07. > :03:12.can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we
:03:13. > :03:15.need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the
:03:16. > :03:18.United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of
:03:19. > :03:27.the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But
:03:28. > :03:31.there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from
:03:32. > :03:37.the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour
:03:38. > :03:43.Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom
:03:44. > :03:50.about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming
:03:51. > :03:55.here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are
:03:56. > :03:58.behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your
:03:59. > :04:05.benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that
:04:06. > :04:15.might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!
:04:16. > :04:17.Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not?
:04:18. > :04:20.Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We
:04:21. > :04:24.have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied
:04:25. > :04:31.us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every
:04:32. > :04:35.piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It
:04:36. > :04:41.would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can
:04:42. > :04:47.not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised
:04:48. > :04:50.that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret
:04:51. > :04:56.Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,
:04:57. > :05:00.and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said
:05:01. > :05:04.the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national
:05:05. > :05:07.vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French
:05:08. > :05:12.will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret
:05:13. > :05:15.Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How
:05:16. > :05:28.could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes
:05:29. > :05:30.mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes
:05:31. > :05:37.mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine
:05:38. > :05:45.Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as
:05:46. > :05:48.an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be
:05:49. > :05:52.interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and
:05:53. > :05:57.import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single
:05:58. > :06:02.market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to
:06:03. > :06:06.determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide
:06:07. > :06:10.the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,
:06:11. > :06:16.that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is
:06:17. > :06:22.more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it
:06:23. > :06:27.will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be
:06:28. > :06:33.worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever
:06:34. > :06:39.letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood
:06:40. > :06:43.up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is
:06:44. > :06:48.dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the
:06:49. > :06:52.EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European
:06:53. > :06:57.law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the
:06:58. > :07:02.Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The
:07:03. > :07:07.political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next
:07:08. > :07:11.election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off
:07:12. > :07:15.a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of
:07:16. > :07:22.this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in
:07:23. > :07:25.coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of
:07:26. > :07:30.the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to
:07:31. > :07:33.do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron
:07:34. > :07:38.is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked
:07:39. > :07:43.over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a
:07:44. > :07:48.counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,
:07:49. > :07:54.because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom
:07:55. > :08:00.other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,
:08:01. > :08:05.Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.
:08:06. > :08:10.That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.
:08:11. > :08:14.We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and
:08:15. > :08:21.spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are
:08:22. > :08:26.all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational
:08:27. > :08:30.organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a
:08:31. > :08:34.political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John
:08:35. > :08:39.Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing
:08:40. > :08:49.deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick
:08:50. > :08:52.question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way
:08:53. > :08:56.in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper
:08:57. > :08:59.meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of
:09:00. > :09:08.Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord
:09:09. > :09:12.Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.
:09:13. > :09:23.I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not. PMQ
:09:24. > :09:28.'s, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house
:09:29. > :09:32.was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime
:09:33. > :09:37.ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until
:09:38. > :09:41.now. What is clear is that he is
:09:42. > :09:46.floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy
:09:47. > :09:50.price freeze. The difference is, John Major is a good man, the Right
:09:51. > :09:56.Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical
:09:57. > :10:00.profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,
:10:01. > :10:06.and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of
:10:07. > :10:11.touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you
:10:12. > :10:19.are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband
:10:20. > :10:24.trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to
:10:25. > :10:26.do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers
:10:27. > :10:32.questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul
:10:33. > :10:37.Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the
:10:38. > :10:42.first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall
:10:43. > :10:46.over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a
:10:47. > :10:51.more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron
:10:52. > :10:55.started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I
:10:56. > :11:01.would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote
:11:02. > :11:05.which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon
:11:06. > :11:11.Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.
:11:12. > :11:17.Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of
:11:18. > :11:22.Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting
:11:23. > :11:26.their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I
:11:27. > :11:30.sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is
:11:31. > :11:38.the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull
:11:39. > :11:43.as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch
:11:44. > :11:48.and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy
:11:49. > :11:51.this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from
:11:52. > :11:59.Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,
:12:00. > :12:04.the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify
:12:05. > :12:10.substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not
:12:11. > :12:12.necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising
:12:13. > :12:15.industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been
:12:16. > :12:19.hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no
:12:20. > :12:23.money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but
:12:24. > :12:28.you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without
:12:29. > :12:33.expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will
:12:34. > :12:38.survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is
:12:39. > :12:43.that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial
:12:44. > :12:48.state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure
:12:49. > :12:51.spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info
:12:52. > :12:56.structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the
:12:57. > :13:00.idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is
:13:01. > :13:05.something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once
:13:06. > :13:10.thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have
:13:11. > :13:18.delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to
:13:19. > :13:22.deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily
:13:23. > :13:27.Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I
:13:28. > :13:33.aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is
:13:34. > :13:38.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.