:00:36. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:44. > :00:48.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:49. > :00:53.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:54. > :00:57.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:58. > :01:15.And we have the highest numbers of group. A donkey.
:01:16. > :01:18.And we have the highest numbers of deaths from one asbestos related
:01:19. > :01:22.cancer so does the new law that Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's
:01:23. > :01:24.plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for
:01:25. > :01:27.Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:28. > :01:32.the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris
:01:33. > :01:35.Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:36. > :01:47.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:48. > :01:50.First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation
:01:51. > :01:58.into the behaviour of the party's former chief executive, Lord
:01:59. > :02:01.Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that
:02:02. > :02:05.no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused
:02:06. > :02:07.the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".
:02:08. > :02:18.More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard
:02:19. > :02:21.say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned
:02:22. > :02:26.to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis
:02:27. > :02:35.for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female
:02:36. > :02:38.Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the
:02:39. > :02:41.next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.
:02:42. > :02:48.A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have
:02:49. > :02:50.they made a complete mess of it? You feel for Nick Clegg, because he
:02:51. > :02:57.launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC
:02:58. > :03:04.looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of
:03:05. > :03:07.proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence
:03:08. > :03:16.from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly
:03:17. > :03:19.credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord
:03:20. > :03:24.Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal
:03:25. > :03:29.advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not
:03:30. > :03:35.apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick
:03:36. > :03:40.Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not
:03:41. > :03:45.launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it
:03:46. > :03:51.was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib
:03:52. > :03:56.Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with
:03:57. > :03:59.policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being
:04:00. > :04:03.cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the
:04:04. > :04:17.Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There
:04:18. > :04:21.are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and
:04:22. > :04:27.letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a
:04:28. > :04:31.generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind
:04:32. > :04:36.of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists
:04:37. > :04:42.and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.
:04:43. > :04:47.Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort
:04:48. > :04:53.of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last
:04:54. > :04:57.year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do
:04:58. > :05:02.what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual
:05:03. > :05:07.harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story
:05:08. > :05:12.may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one
:05:13. > :05:17.that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have
:05:18. > :05:20.come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether
:05:21. > :05:29.he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this
:05:30. > :05:32.week. So it's not been a great week for
:05:33. > :05:35.the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of
:05:36. > :05:39.a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking
:05:40. > :05:41.to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny
:05:42. > :05:44.Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters
:05:45. > :05:47.there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the
:05:48. > :05:50.microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have
:05:51. > :05:55.voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.
:05:56. > :05:58.I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the
:05:59. > :06:01.former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of
:06:02. > :06:05.the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they
:06:06. > :06:11.be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They
:06:12. > :06:19.give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in
:06:20. > :06:28.to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles
:06:29. > :06:32.under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit, not
:06:33. > :06:35.top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.
:06:36. > :06:44.A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I
:06:45. > :06:48.think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else
:06:49. > :06:52.was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too
:06:53. > :07:00.concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that
:07:01. > :07:06.is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.
:07:07. > :07:08.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place,
:07:09. > :07:08.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place for
:07:09. > :07:14.between a rock and a hard place, for them as a party, I feel slightly
:07:15. > :07:18.sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are
:07:19. > :07:21.victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I
:07:22. > :07:24.river by going to the coalition. I think the ones, particularly student
:07:25. > :07:31.fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.
:07:32. > :07:35.I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you
:07:36. > :07:43.think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is
:07:44. > :07:47.feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib
:07:48. > :07:54.Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a
:07:55. > :08:00.Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The
:08:01. > :08:03.Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I
:08:04. > :08:07.mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the
:08:08. > :08:11.Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,
:08:12. > :08:16.?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.
:08:17. > :08:23.Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone
:08:24. > :08:31.who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has
:08:32. > :08:41.mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows
:08:42. > :08:45.him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it
:08:46. > :08:48.straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly
:08:49. > :08:55.and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy
:08:56. > :08:59.is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him
:09:00. > :09:06.that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise
:09:07. > :09:09.him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in
:09:10. > :09:11.Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming
:09:12. > :09:15.referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like
:09:16. > :09:34.they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are
:09:35. > :09:36.last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue
:09:37. > :09:39.in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems
:09:40. > :09:43.are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all
:09:44. > :09:46.about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together
:09:47. > :09:49.campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the
:09:50. > :09:55.future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do
:09:56. > :10:02.not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you
:10:03. > :10:09.will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award
:10:10. > :10:17.bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own
:10:18. > :10:20.person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what
:10:21. > :10:25.would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get
:10:26. > :10:31.the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If
:10:32. > :10:34.they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe
:10:35. > :10:41.they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing
:10:42. > :10:45.the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve
:10:46. > :10:48.another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some
:10:49. > :10:58.hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of
:10:59. > :11:00.bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior
:11:01. > :11:03.Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.
:11:04. > :11:07.to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the
:11:08. > :11:11.things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any
:11:12. > :11:17.credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are
:11:18. > :11:22.getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first
:11:23. > :11:26.thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was
:11:27. > :11:31.not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right
:11:32. > :11:35.beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to
:11:36. > :11:39.deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour
:11:40. > :11:44.left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one
:11:45. > :11:51.focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very
:11:52. > :11:56.hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering
:11:57. > :11:59.without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the
:12:00. > :12:04.largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal
:12:05. > :12:07.Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to
:12:08. > :12:14.is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise
:12:15. > :12:21.that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your
:12:22. > :12:25.measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income
:12:26. > :12:30.tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The
:12:31. > :12:34.role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are
:12:35. > :12:39.the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a
:12:40. > :12:44.strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We
:12:45. > :12:52.saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour
:12:53. > :12:56.Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income
:12:57. > :13:02.tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do
:13:03. > :13:06.not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots
:13:07. > :13:09.of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,
:13:10. > :13:15.people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged
:13:16. > :13:19.children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard
:13:20. > :13:23.between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we
:13:24. > :13:28.secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery
:13:29. > :13:32.is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We
:13:33. > :13:36.need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people
:13:37. > :13:45.who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their
:13:46. > :13:48.savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem
:13:49. > :13:52.policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the
:13:53. > :13:58.need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big
:13:59. > :14:01.hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We
:14:02. > :14:09.have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay
:14:10. > :14:11.commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this
:14:12. > :14:17.announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other
:14:18. > :14:22.things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we
:14:23. > :14:26.have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get
:14:27. > :14:30.Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is
:14:31. > :14:34.something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay
:14:35. > :14:39.commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this
:14:40. > :14:43.stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?
:14:44. > :14:50.I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We
:14:51. > :14:54.have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic
:14:55. > :14:57.impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has
:14:58. > :15:05.credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not
:15:06. > :15:09.be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince
:15:10. > :15:18.Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,
:15:19. > :15:22.he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don't
:15:23. > :15:28.clear every word I say with him, I don't expect him to do the same to
:15:29. > :15:37.me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was
:15:38. > :15:41.blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay
:15:42. > :15:49.commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the
:15:50. > :15:54.financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also
:15:55. > :16:00.right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the
:16:01. > :16:04.commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have
:16:05. > :16:12.to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are
:16:13. > :16:14.the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed
:16:15. > :16:17.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees,
:16:18. > :16:18.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and
:16:19. > :16:22.you for ratting on tuition fees, and that was a broken promise that
:16:23. > :16:28.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:29. > :16:37.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:38. > :16:42.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:43. > :16:47.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:48. > :16:55.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:56. > :17:02.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:03. > :17:06.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:07. > :17:11.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:12. > :17:17.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:18. > :17:21.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:22. > :17:27.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:28. > :17:31.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:32. > :17:40.in this country over the next 12 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:41. > :17:44.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:45. > :17:50.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:51. > :17:57.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:58. > :18:04.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:05. > :18:09.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:10. > :18:15.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:16. > :18:20.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:21. > :18:25.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:26. > :18:29.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:30. > :18:35.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:36. > :18:38.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:39. > :18:45.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:46. > :18:52.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:53. > :18:58.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:18:59. > :19:04.will see what happens in the 2015 election. I think we have a record
:19:05. > :19:08.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:09. > :19:12.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:13. > :19:18.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:19. > :19:22.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:23. > :19:26.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:27. > :19:31.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:32. > :19:35.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:36. > :19:39.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:40. > :19:44.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:45. > :19:50.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:51. > :19:54.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:55. > :19:58.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:19:59. > :20:04.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:05. > :20:10.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:11. > :20:14.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:15. > :20:25.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:26. > :20:32.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:33. > :20:37.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:38. > :20:43.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:44. > :20:49.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:50. > :20:52.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:53. > :20:56.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:57. > :21:00.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:01. > :21:04.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:05. > :21:09.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:10. > :21:15.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:16. > :21:20.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:21. > :21:25.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:26. > :21:32.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:33. > :21:38.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:39. > :21:44.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:45. > :21:53.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .
:21:54. > :22:03.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:04. > :22:05.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:06. > :22:11.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:12. > :22:17.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:18. > :22:26.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:27. > :22:31.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:32. > :22:35.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:36. > :22:39.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:40. > :22:43.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:44. > :22:50.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:51. > :22:55.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:56. > :23:01.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:02. > :23:07.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:08. > :23:16.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:17. > :23:20.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:21. > :23:25.happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been
:23:26. > :23:30.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:31. > :23:39.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:40. > :23:45.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:46. > :23:48.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:49. > :23:53.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:54. > :23:59.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We
:24:00. > :24:02.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:03. > :24:08.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:09. > :24:12.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:13. > :24:16.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:17. > :24:23.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:24. > :24:29.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:30. > :24:36.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:37. > :24:40.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:41. > :24:44.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:45. > :24:53.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:54. > :25:00.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:01. > :25:07.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:08. > :25:11.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:12. > :25:16.apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:17. > :25:22.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:23. > :25:29.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:30. > :25:37.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:38. > :25:43.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:44. > :25:50.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:51. > :26:00.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:01. > :26:06.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:07. > :26:17.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:18. > :26:27.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:28. > :26:34.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:35. > :26:38.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:39. > :26:42.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:43. > :26:47.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:48. > :26:52.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:53. > :27:00.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:01. > :27:04.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:05. > :27:16.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:17. > :27:22.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:23. > :27:27.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:28. > :27:30.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:31. > :27:34.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:35. > :27:40.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:41. > :27:46.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:47. > :27:49.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:50. > :27:56.opens himself to civil lawsuits. He opens himself to civil lawsuits He
:27:57. > :28:00.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:01. > :28:06.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:07. > :28:14.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:15. > :28:17.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:18. > :28:23.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:24. > :28:27.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:28. > :28:40.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:41. > :28:46.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:47. > :28:50.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the
:28:51. > :28:55.time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most
:28:56. > :29:01.important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made
:29:02. > :29:11.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:12. > :29:18.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:19. > :29:23.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:24. > :29:40.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:41. > :29:44.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:45. > :29:47.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:48. > :29:50.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:51. > :29:52.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:53. > :29:56.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:57. > :29:57.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:29:58. > :29:59.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:00. > :30:05.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:06. > :30:09.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:10. > :30:15.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:16. > :30:20.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:21. > :30:26.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:27. > :30:36.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:37. > :30:39.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:40. > :30:43.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:44. > :30:51.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:52. > :30:54.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:55. > :30:57.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:58. > :31:07.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:08. > :31:12.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:13. > :31:16.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:17. > :31:22.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:23. > :31:26.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:27. > :31:30.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:31. > :31:35.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:36. > :31:39.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:40. > :31:47.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:48. > :31:53.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:54. > :31:56.can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information
:31:57. > :32:00.will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real
:32:01. > :32:04.commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the
:32:05. > :32:08.system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is
:32:09. > :32:14.oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not
:32:15. > :32:17.mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee
:32:18. > :32:23.said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by
:32:24. > :32:30.Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.
:32:31. > :32:40.The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to
:32:41. > :32:47.approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president
:32:48. > :32:51.does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an
:32:52. > :32:55.establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the
:32:56. > :33:01.committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In
:33:02. > :33:06.this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her
:33:07. > :33:10.European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the
:33:11. > :33:15.interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.
:33:16. > :33:19.But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are
:33:20. > :33:24.having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency
:33:25. > :33:28.should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more
:33:29. > :33:33.safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you
:33:34. > :33:38.cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the
:33:39. > :33:40.patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism it
:33:41. > :33:44.about the threat from terrorism, it is all about travesty. There are
:33:45. > :33:50.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:51. > :33:55.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:56. > :33:59.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:00. > :34:06.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:07. > :34:11.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:12. > :34:17.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:18. > :34:22.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:23. > :34:28.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:29. > :34:32.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:33. > :34:37.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:38. > :34:42.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:43. > :34:49.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:50. > :34:53.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:54. > :34:59.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:35:00. > :35:04.you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a
:35:05. > :35:09.hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie
:35:10. > :35:16.capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular
:35:17. > :35:21.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:22. > :35:28.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:29. > :35:33.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:34. > :35:39.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:40. > :35:43.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:44. > :35:49.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:50. > :35:51.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:52. > :35:59.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:00. > :36:04.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:05. > :36:09.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:10. > :36:15.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:16. > :36:19.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:20. > :36:23.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:24. > :36:27.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We
:36:28. > :36:33.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The
:36:34. > :36:37.and not politicians signing off The final 30 seconds to you. As a result
:36:38. > :36:41.of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is
:36:42. > :36:45.accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes
:36:46. > :36:51.are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or
:36:52. > :36:56.not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the
:36:57. > :36:59.people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to
:37:00. > :37:02.11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:03. > :37:04.minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that
:37:05. > :37:28.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:29. > :37:31.I'm Natalie Graham and this is the Sunday Politics in the South East.
:37:32. > :37:34.Coming up later. The Government says it wants to go
:37:35. > :37:38.all out for fracking and will offer more money to councils which say yes
:37:39. > :37:41.to drilling. We'll be asking whether that money will undermine local
:37:42. > :37:42.authorities' decision making when it comes to allowing the energy
:37:43. > :37:47.comes to allowing the energx companies to explore for oil and
:37:48. > :37:48.gas. Joining us to discuss this and other topics is former BBC
:37:49. > :37:50.journalist and now Prospective journalist and now Prospective
:37:51. > :37:51.Parliamentary Candidate for the Conservatives in Brighton P`vilion,
:37:52. > :37:58.Conservatives in Brighton Pavilion, Clarence Mitchell. And by another
:37:59. > :38:02.journalist who also wants to become an MP, Jasper Gerrard will stand in
:38:03. > :38:05.Maidstone and the Weald in the 015 General Election for the Liberal
:38:06. > :38:09.Democrats. Welcome to you both. Now, before we go on to discuss our
:38:10. > :38:13.main stories, I just wanted to get your thoughts on one thing. Council
:38:14. > :38:14.tax is always a big issue for local politicians and councils alhke
:38:15. > :38:14.tax is always a big issue for local politicians and councils alike and
:38:15. > :38:16.politicians and councils alhke and in the South East this week we
:38:17. > :38:19.learned that Kent County Cotncil learned that Kent County Council
:38:20. > :38:22.will be increasing council tax for the first time in three years and in
:38:23. > :38:25.Brighton the Green`led administration is going to hold a
:38:26. > :38:29.referendum on a council tax rise of 4.75%. They say it is to fund
:38:30. > :38:32.Brighton and Hove's adult social care services. It'll be the
:38:33. > :38:38.country's first ever poll on a budget rise. They say they have guts
:38:39. > :38:39.to fund care for the elderlx, budget rise. They say they have guts
:38:40. > :38:42.to fund care for the elderly, they to fund care for the elderlx, they
:38:43. > :38:49.are not getting any money for the man, what are they supposed to do?
:38:50. > :38:52.They should be providing services properly within the council tax that
:38:53. > :38:57.they have. This is an irresponsible stunt. Do you really think the
:38:58. > :39:02.people of Britain will vote for a twice inflation increase in council
:39:03. > :39:03.tax when they're rubbish is not being collected, when they `re fed
:39:04. > :39:10.being collected, when they are fed up with the green's ideologhcal eat
:39:11. > :39:15.driven transport policies which are affecting businesses? We think it
:39:16. > :39:19.will act as a vote of no`confidence in the green administration. Do you
:39:20. > :39:23.have any sympathy for them? They have not got much money frol the
:39:24. > :39:24.government, they are being cut, we hear so often from Kent county
:39:25. > :39:26.council about children and elderly council about children and dlderly
:39:27. > :39:30.services being cut, what are they services being cut, what ard they
:39:31. > :39:32.having to do? Kent county council are having to cook severe ctts,
:39:33. > :39:32.having to do? Kent county council are having to cook severe cuts, they
:39:33. > :39:38.are having to cook severe ctts, they have closed children's centres, a
:39:39. > :39:41.lot of those children are on the at risk register and have no one
:39:42. > :39:46.looking after them. Councils are under huge pressure to save money.
:39:47. > :39:50.Kent county council has had a bad record with his public viruses, it
:39:51. > :39:59.lost a fortune in the Icelandic banks, `` with its public fhnances.
:40:00. > :40:00.I think that sends out a bad message to people when they see thehr
:40:01. > :40:05.to people when they see their council tax bills rising at the same
:40:06. > :40:09.time as seeing a lot of waste. So you both agree this should not be
:40:10. > :40:12.happening. Certainly in the case of Kent, if it does happen, thdy
:40:13. > :40:16.happening. Certainly in the case of Kent, if it does happen, they should
:40:17. > :40:18.be honest and go higher than the 1.99% rise, have a proper rdferendum
:40:19. > :40:22.1.99% rise, have a proper referendum and the debate, do not just sneak in
:40:23. > :40:28.under the limit so people do not have the say. In the case of
:40:29. > :40:31.Brighton, the government is offering the money to offset this, and with
:40:32. > :40:36.Labour supporter last year they still went for a council tax rise.
:40:37. > :40:38.This is an attempt to shore up their vision on this.
:40:39. > :40:42.It's an illness that kills lore people a year than road traffic
:40:43. > :40:45.accidents and the South East has the highest number of incidents in the
:40:46. > :40:48.country. Mesothelioma is a type of cancer caused by exposure to
:40:49. > :40:51.asbestos. For many sufferers, claiming compensation has been
:40:52. > :40:53.difficult but a new law is about to make it easier. But does it go far
:40:54. > :40:56.enough? Our reporter Sara Ndville enough? Our reporter Sara Neville
:40:57. > :41:05.went to speak to sufferers `nd campaigners to find out why they say
:41:06. > :41:14.the bill is a missed opportunity. I started in 1953 as a shipwright
:41:15. > :41:18.apprentice at 15. Rave from Kent worked at Chatham dockyard. In heavy
:41:19. > :41:24.industry like thousands of people in the south`east, where use of
:41:25. > :41:26.asbestos was widespread. He married his childhood sweetheart, M`vis but
:41:27. > :41:30.his childhood sweetheart, Mavis, but 60 years on, Mavis has
:41:31. > :41:35.mesothelioma, an aggressive form of lung cancer caused by breathing in
:41:36. > :41:37.asbestos fibres whilst washhng her husband 's work clothes. I have said
:41:38. > :41:40.ever since that diagnosis, it was my ever since that diagnosis, ht was my
:41:41. > :41:43.fourth, I gave it to have because I fourth, I gave it to have bdcause I
:41:44. > :41:45.brought it home on my clothes. fourth, I gave it to have because I
:41:46. > :41:51.brought it home on my clothes. We have discussed this at length. I
:41:52. > :41:57.still feel guilty. I do not think he should be guilty. The government of
:41:58. > :42:04.the time should be guilty. Nearby in the Isle of Sheppey, Italian Roberto
:42:05. > :42:06.was a ship maker. He died from a severely two years ago after working
:42:07. > :42:08.with asbestos for some 30 years. severely two years ago after working
:42:09. > :42:11.with asbestos for some 30 ydars I with asbestos for some 30 ydars I
:42:12. > :42:16.have been on my own, and I have just sobbed, you know, because I knew
:42:17. > :42:19.there was nothing I could do. They never put themselves in that
:42:20. > :42:25.situation to develop this horrible disease. People in the note new and
:42:26. > :42:29.chose not to do anything about it. `` people who were in the know, they
:42:30. > :42:33.knew. People should be held accountable. The south`east has one
:42:34. > :42:38.of the highest rate of mesothelioma in the world. It is incurable,
:42:39. > :42:40.usually kills within months of diagnosis, and has ten times less
:42:41. > :42:43.funding than other Cancer Research. funding than other Cancer Rdsearch.
:42:44. > :42:49.It can take decades for mesothelioma to develop which means claiming
:42:50. > :42:50.to develop which means clailing compensation difficult because many
:42:51. > :42:53.compensation difficult becatse many of the firms were asbestos where use
:42:54. > :42:56.is no longer exist. Historically, for those who can trace their
:42:57. > :43:02.for those who can trace thehr company or the company's insurers,
:43:03. > :43:05.damages of up to ?200,000 c`n be claimed in civil actions. But for
:43:06. > :43:08.those who could not, there was no hope of any significant pay`out
:43:09. > :43:15.until now. The government has introduced a new ?350 million
:43:16. > :43:18.compensation scheme worth an average of ?115,000 per person as p`rt of
:43:19. > :43:24.of ?115,000 per person as part of the mesothelioma bill. It is a
:43:25. > :43:27.positive step, but the deal is capped at 75% of the average
:43:28. > :43:27.positive step, but the deal is capped at 75% of the averagd amount
:43:28. > :43:28.capped at 75% of the average amount of compensation that sufferdrs would
:43:29. > :43:32.of compensation that sufferers would have received in a civil case. And
:43:33. > :43:39.there is the cut`off point for eligibility. Anyone diagnosdd before
:43:40. > :43:44.July 2012 cannot claim. And there is no extra cash for research. So all
:43:45. > :43:49.in all, is this a good deal for sufferers? I think the insurance
:43:50. > :43:50.industry negotiated hard with the government. I think the govdrnment
:43:51. > :43:53.government. I think the government did a good thing in trying to make
:43:54. > :43:56.sure that the compensation levels were higher than originally
:43:57. > :43:58.proposed. So victims will get were higher than originally
:43:59. > :43:58.proposed. So victims will gdt 7 % were higher than originally
:43:59. > :44:01.proposed. So victims will get 75% of proposed. So victims will gdt 7 % of
:44:02. > :44:02.the compensation that they would have ordinarily got if they had gone
:44:03. > :44:05.through civil process. I tried have ordinarily got if they had gone
:44:06. > :44:07.through civil process. I tried to get that raised to 80%. I think that
:44:08. > :44:16.would have meant a better ddal for would have meant a better deal for
:44:17. > :44:20.victims and would not have cost the insurance industry more. It is a
:44:21. > :44:26.shame that the government did not shame that the government did not
:44:27. > :44:31.push harder. Mavis feels let down. There is a lot going on in the USA
:44:32. > :44:35.and Australia, but not us, not to the extent that they are. They are
:44:36. > :44:37.really plunging the money into it all. And we just need some loney for
:44:38. > :44:42.all. And we just need some money for research. I feel that if anxbody
:44:43. > :44:42.all. And we just need some loney for research. I feel that if anybody was
:44:43. > :44:43.research. I feel that if anxbody was to unintentionally take somebody's
:44:44. > :44:51.to unintentionally take somdbody's life, they are up for manslaughter,
:44:52. > :44:54.aren't they? And, yes, this has been taken so many people's lives. And
:44:55. > :45:01.what are they given? Hand`ott. So, what are they given? Hand`out. So,
:45:02. > :45:05.you know, it is not as much as money, this is not as having justice
:45:06. > :45:09.for those who are going to die with it. The bill comes into effdct later
:45:10. > :45:13.it. The bill comes into effect later this year. But campaigners say that
:45:14. > :45:18.does not mean the fight is over. I wanted to make it a better bill We
:45:19. > :45:21.had crossed party consensus to do that. Unfortunately that did not
:45:22. > :45:26.happen. I think that we will continue as a cross`party group to
:45:27. > :45:31.make sure we do get better justice for victims of mesothelioma and we
:45:32. > :45:35.get more money into research. Use of asbestos was banned in 1999, but
:45:36. > :45:37.some industrial workers are now paying the ultimate price. @nd the
:45:38. > :45:39.paying the ultimate price. And the question remains, have government
:45:40. > :45:46.efforts to give justice to victims been missed opportunity?
:45:47. > :45:50.We were hoping to talk to the minister who have overseen this
:45:51. > :45:55.legislation, Mike Penning, but he could not join us. Let's talk to the
:45:56. > :45:59.Rochester MP. Like Tracy Crouch you wanted this bill to go for the so do
:46:00. > :46:07.you think it was a missed opportunity? Ashman broke to go
:46:08. > :46:10.further? I think I am proud of what Tracey has been doing to make it a
:46:11. > :46:15.better bill and I am sorry she did not succeed on getting up to 80%. We
:46:16. > :46:19.voted for more research and the insurance industry to support that.
:46:20. > :46:23.I just wish we could have gone a little further. What do you think
:46:24. > :46:26.what's happening here? Do you think the government blinked too soon in
:46:27. > :46:33.the face of opposition from the insurance companies? I think the
:46:34. > :46:37.government negotiated with the insured and then presented that as a
:46:38. > :46:41.done deal to Parliament, and I think we could have pushed the insurance
:46:42. > :46:46.industry a bit further. I feel particularly sorry for Mavis, women
:46:47. > :46:48.like her, who were washing their husbands overalls and were exposed
:46:49. > :46:54.husbands overalls and were dxposed that way. It is really sad when we
:46:55. > :46:57.do not have compensation for people in that scenario. We have Chatham
:46:58. > :47:08.dockyard here and at least that you will make `` at least that will will
:47:09. > :47:09.make it better for some people. Labour has accused the government of
:47:10. > :47:11.having a vested interest, he Labour has accused the government of
:47:12. > :47:13.having a vested interest, hd says having a vested interest, hd says
:47:14. > :47:17.the industry has bankrolled the Conservative party for years, do you
:47:18. > :47:21.think that is what is going on? I do not think that is fair. I think the
:47:22. > :47:26.insurance industry is putting a lot of money into this, even paxing
:47:27. > :47:30.of money into this, even paying three quarters compensation is going
:47:31. > :47:32.to be a lot of money. I wish we had gone a little further. It will be
:47:33. > :47:35.gone a little further. It whll be good to work with people in
:47:36. > :47:39.different parties and support Tracey like this, I think it is re`lly
:47:40. > :47:40.like this, I think it is really deserved for people who havd
:47:41. > :47:41.deserved for people who have suffered from this terrible
:47:42. > :47:44.disease, particularly who have been disease, particularly who h`ve been
:47:45. > :47:50.associated with Chatham dockyard in our area. Another criticism of this
:47:51. > :47:59.bill is that this cut`off point of July 2012, anyone diagnosed before
:48:00. > :48:03.them, and many of your constituents must be in that situation, that
:48:04. > :48:07.seems very cruel. People who can be clear what that employer was, for
:48:08. > :48:10.the dockyard that is clear, they should be able to get compensation.
:48:11. > :48:13.The issue is when people have not been able to get hold of an employer
:48:14. > :48:15.or the employer or insurancd coming or the employer or insurancd coming
:48:16. > :48:18.gone out of business. That is going gone out of business. That hs going
:48:19. > :48:22.to help a lot of people, this gone out of business. That is going
:48:23. > :48:26.to help a lot of people, this Bill. I wish we had been able to go a bit
:48:27. > :48:30.further. I think it is a good policy which will help quite a lot of
:48:31. > :48:33.people. Where do we go from here? We have heard about the issue of
:48:34. > :48:35.funding, there is not much research done into this horrible disease.
:48:36. > :48:35.funding, there is not much research done into this horrible disdase As
:48:36. > :48:37.done into this horrible disease. As a result of this deal, therd
:48:38. > :48:37.done into this horrible disdase As a result of this deal, there will
:48:38. > :48:40.not be any funding for rese`rch not be any funding for research
:48:41. > :48:45.coming from insurance companies. What do we do next? We will not be
:48:46. > :48:52.foreseen that in the litigation because we did not win that vote,
:48:53. > :48:58.that Tracey and I wanted. I hope the insurance industry will listen to
:48:59. > :49:02.the strength of support and feeling on this and perhaps on a voluntary
:49:03. > :49:05.basis support research into this terrible illness because I think
:49:06. > :49:11.they will get goodwill from that and I think they should recognise the
:49:12. > :49:14.work Tracey and others have done to push for it for the victims who
:49:15. > :49:20.deserve that support and understanding. Clarence Mitchell, do
:49:21. > :49:26.you think the government should have pushed for money for funding? Or
:49:27. > :49:31.that as good a deal as we could have expected? With something as awful as
:49:32. > :49:33.this, we should never be satisfied if it is not the full compensation
:49:34. > :49:35.due to someone who has suffered if it is not the full compensation
:49:36. > :49:36.due to someone who has suffdred from due to someone who has suffdred from
:49:37. > :49:42.this awful disease. In Brighton alone, we had 23 registered deaths
:49:43. > :49:48.in the last year. And those deaths will rise. Exactly, this is the long
:49:49. > :49:53.tail disease, the effect anx come out in later life and many people do
:49:54. > :49:54.not have a prognosis. The government should have fought harder with the
:49:55. > :50:00.should have fought harder whth the insurance companies and get funding
:50:01. > :50:03.into the disease? Tracey's campaign was fantastic, but the onus is now
:50:04. > :50:09.on the insurance companies to be sympathetic and understand the way
:50:10. > :50:15.the bill is moving, and help people, if there is a demonstrable
:50:16. > :50:20.case for people, they should get 100% compensation. Is it realistic
:50:21. > :50:23.for the insurance companies to pay 100%? They would argue it is not
:50:24. > :50:30.their problem, they have had to pick up the pieces over irresponsible
:50:31. > :50:32.insurance company. I think they have done very well, the governmdnt, to
:50:33. > :50:36.done very well, the government, to get 75%, it is better than the
:50:37. > :50:38.Labour Party had got. I think it would have gone a little bit
:50:39. > :50:42.further, particularly for pdople who further, particularly for pdople who
:50:43. > :50:43.did not make the cut`off. It reminds me of those soldiers in the 1950s
:50:44. > :50:49.me of those soldiers in the 195 s who were subjected to nuclear
:50:50. > :50:53.radiation. Lots of pretty terrible things went on in those days, people
:50:54. > :50:54.were completed innocent and I found that very moving, the footage of the
:50:55. > :50:58.poor lady who was innocently that very moving, the footage of the
:50:59. > :51:00.poor lady who was innocentlx washing poor lady who was innocently washing
:51:01. > :51:05.her husband's work clothes `nd is now very seriously ill. The trouble
:51:06. > :51:12.is, the minister is on record as saying, he had to be pragmatic and
:51:13. > :51:14.get the legislation through, the Labour government, to be fair,
:51:15. > :51:16.started this. The difficultx Labour government, to be fahr,
:51:17. > :51:19.started this. The difficulty with started this. The difficultx with
:51:20. > :51:22.being in government, you have to make ) decisions. And I think that
:51:23. > :51:30.is what the government have done. All of this would have liked us to
:51:31. > :51:31.go further. But it is always a fine judgement to see whether you
:51:32. > :51:31.go further. But it is always a fine judgement to see whether yot could
:51:32. > :51:32.judgement to see whether you could have pushed it further. We `re in
:51:33. > :51:36.have pushed it further. We are in agreement that in an ideal world we
:51:37. > :51:40.would have liked more but it is a good start. You have been both sides
:51:41. > :51:41.of the set `` fence, the civil service and a journalist, do you
:51:42. > :51:43.think this is being realistic, service and a journalist, do you
:51:44. > :51:47.think this is being realisthc, or think this is being realistic, or
:51:48. > :51:50.should we have gone further? At the moment in the present climate, given
:51:51. > :51:54.the arguments, I am sure it is as good as it could be at the moment.
:51:55. > :51:57.We should never be satisfied. Those of us in politics and wanting to get
:51:58. > :51:59.into politics are there to lake a into politics are there to make a
:52:00. > :52:04.difference, we should always be idealistic. But you are, once in
:52:05. > :52:09.government, bound by the re`r `` government, bound by the re`r ``
:52:10. > :52:13.realities of the situation. But we should keep pushing for something as
:52:14. > :52:17.clear`cut as this when people are literally dying because of this.
:52:18. > :52:19.There is still a lot of asbdstos in schools as well. That is the issue,
:52:20. > :52:23.schools as well. That is thd issue, this could be a time bomb. This will
:52:24. > :52:27.come back as a major debate at different points. Now the Government
:52:28. > :52:30.has said it will go all out for shale gas which is of coursd
:52:31. > :52:31.extracted from the ground using the controversial process of fracking.
:52:32. > :52:34.controversial process of fr`cking. The Government has now said that
:52:35. > :52:38.local councils which agree to allow fracking will be allowed to keep
:52:39. > :52:39.100% of the business rates it collects from the energy colpanies
:52:40. > :52:43.collects from the energy companies involved. Previously they wdre
:52:44. > :52:47.offered 50% of the taxes. Hdre's the minister and Sevenoaks MP Michael
:52:48. > :52:52.Fallon. This could amount to around ?1.
:52:53. > :52:53.million per year for each site This could amount to around ?1.7
:52:54. > :52:54.million per year for each shte for million per year for each site for
:52:55. > :52:59.the local councils, so thesd are the local councils, so thesd are
:53:00. > :53:00.formidable sums of money and I think it is right that local commtnities
:53:01. > :53:04.it is right that local communities should share in the benefits. They
:53:05. > :53:05.will get the jobs that the industrial activity will involve but
:53:06. > :53:07.they will also be able to keep industrial activity will involve but
:53:08. > :53:10.they will also be able to keep the money to improve local servhces But
:53:11. > :53:13.is that money going to win round councils and communities who are
:53:14. > :53:16.worried about the dangers of fracking? There were huge protests
:53:17. > :53:19.in the West Sussex village of Balcombe last summer when the energy
:53:20. > :53:21.company Cuadrilla was carryhng out exploratory drilling and we're
:53:22. > :53:25.joined now by Charles Metcalfe of the Frack Free Balcombe Reshdent's
:53:26. > :53:26.Association. Thank you for joining us. Safe to say you are cynical
:53:27. > :53:32.us. Safe to say you are cynhcal about this? That is understated it!
:53:33. > :53:36.about this? That is underst`ted it! I think one of the things you have
:53:37. > :53:39.got to think about is that there are huge costs already for councils
:53:40. > :53:47.They say ?1.7 million for every site, well, the policing costs for
:53:48. > :53:51.what happened this summer in outcome alone worth 4.5 million. So should
:53:52. > :53:58.this money go to the police instead of local councils? I think it is
:53:59. > :54:02.silly. 1.7 million does not even begin to cover policing costs for
:54:03. > :54:06.what is by far from being a finished job. They have got to come back and
:54:07. > :54:12.finished testing and then they have got to exploit it if they are going
:54:13. > :54:15.to. It is going to make up to ?10 million in policing costs alone
:54:16. > :54:18.Would any amount of money compensate the village you live in for the
:54:19. > :54:23.disruption caused so far and that may be caused in the future? To be
:54:24. > :54:26.honest, I do not think so. There are too many dangers. The oil and gas
:54:27. > :54:32.industry is very keen to dismiss all of the factual data about how this
:54:33. > :54:38.has harmed communities in the US, in Canada, in Australia. The poisoning
:54:39. > :54:42.of the water, the airborne nasty chemicals. The government is
:54:43. > :54:48.convinced it will be safe. Government, I am afraid, it is not
:54:49. > :54:56.looking at the data, it is hgnoring the data done by scientists not in
:54:57. > :55:00.the pay of the oil and gas industry. This field I can abide in
:55:01. > :55:08.many people in Charles's situation. `` this field like a bribe.
:55:09. > :55:11.Liberalism is about giving people decisions themselves, the b`sis of
:55:12. > :55:15.this is not a bad idea. I would like this to go further so we can make
:55:16. > :55:18.parish councils make the decision so it is decided at the lowest level,
:55:19. > :55:22.so then they would get more of the revenue as well. This is a step in
:55:23. > :55:25.the right direction, but I feel very few communities will think that is
:55:26. > :55:27.enough money. I would personally like it to go further than that.
:55:28. > :55:27.enough money. I would personally like it to go further than that I
:55:28. > :55:31.like it to go further than that. I do think there are still concerned
:55:32. > :55:36.about safety will stop I do not know, I do not go quite as far as
:55:37. > :55:41.your guest, I think the evidence is different from that and I think
:55:42. > :55:44.there are a large amount of things which say it is safe. A fundamental
:55:45. > :55:45.question we had to answer, hf which say it is safe. A fundamental
:55:46. > :55:47.question we had to answer, if we do question we had to answer, if we do
:55:48. > :55:51.want energy to meet our needs, and we do want to be serious about
:55:52. > :55:55.global warning, we have to get energy from somewhere. This money as
:55:56. > :55:56.a sweetener for the councils, that are actually going to decidd where
:55:57. > :56:00.are actually going to decide where the drilling gets done, this will
:56:01. > :56:03.increase cynicism about what is going on here and it makes the
:56:04. > :56:04.government look desperate. Ht going on here and it makes the
:56:05. > :56:08.government look desperate. It is perhaps easy for opponents of the
:56:09. > :56:09.process to portray it as such, this is about providing energy security
:56:10. > :56:18.is about providing energy sdcurity and jobs, about providing lower
:56:19. > :56:22.bills, ultimately. And as long as it is properly licensed, and genuine
:56:23. > :56:26.safety concerns are addressdd, there safety concerns are addressed, there
:56:27. > :56:28.are still? S `` there are still questions about the environlent
:56:29. > :56:33.lobby. This is why we are pushing lobby. This is why we are pushing
:56:34. > :56:37.for this as a government. The financial benefit is not a bribe, it
:56:38. > :56:40.is a fact that the community that is a fact that the communitx that
:56:41. > :56:43.allow this in under the proper regulatory structures that `re in
:56:44. > :56:45.regulatory structures that are in place and tightened as we speak,
:56:46. > :56:49.they can benefit. The counchl is they can benefit. The counchl is
:56:50. > :56:55.taking a dining decision to allow a company like Cuadrilla to come in
:56:56. > :57:01.and explore, if they are given money, it come to my visit. That is
:57:02. > :57:05.how planning works. If a supermarket wants to set up at the edge of
:57:06. > :57:06.town, they make the planning contribution. It is only fair that
:57:07. > :57:07.contribution. It is only fahr that if the government are expecting
:57:08. > :57:11.rural community to make a sacrifice rural community to make a s`crifice
:57:12. > :57:12.for national energy needs, they should receive the financial
:57:13. > :57:19.benefit. The only argument is benefit. The only argument hs
:57:20. > :57:21.whether you would get more money. Where would you spend the money if
:57:22. > :57:26.you had it? We are not talkhng about you had it? We are not talkhng about
:57:27. > :57:28.money coming to our communities. Nick Bowles the other day, hn
:57:29. > :57:28.money coming to our communities Nick Bowles the other day, in a
:57:29. > :57:34.Nick Bowles the other day, hn a all`party parliament treat group on
:57:35. > :57:36.commercial gas and oil, he said he thought the money that came from
:57:37. > :57:38.that goodness rate relief to councils was going to be spdnt
:57:39. > :57:41.councils was going to be spent providing the infrastructurd,
:57:42. > :57:41.councils was going to be spdnt providing the infrastructure, the
:57:42. > :57:47.providing the infrastructurd, the roads, to enable the drillers to go
:57:48. > :57:51.about their business without having to chew up tiny little country roads
:57:52. > :57:52.which is what they are doing at the moment. In Arkansas in the states,
:57:53. > :58:00.the state received 182 millhon the state received 182 millhon
:58:01. > :58:03.dollars in revenue, and it cost them 450 to repair the roads. In
:58:04. > :58:11.Pennsylvania, they received $1. billion, but it costs than 7 billion
:58:12. > :58:12.to repair the roads. This is not actually going to leave mondy in
:58:13. > :58:15.actually going to leave money in anyone's pocket except for road
:58:16. > :58:21.members and the drink underneath. I know we are `` and the drilling
:58:22. > :58:22.companies. We have to leave it there. Time for around of the other
:58:23. > :58:31.political events this week. Home Office Minister and MP Norman
:58:32. > :58:37.Baker said the government whll opt Baker said the government whll opt
:58:38. > :58:38.out of an European letter session Baker said the government will opt
:58:39. > :58:39.out of an European letter sdssion on out of an European letter sdssion on
:58:40. > :58:42.legal highs. He says it come the legal highs. He says it comd the
:58:43. > :58:46.UK's ability to control substances which are more dangerous th`n
:58:47. > :58:47.UK's ability to control substances which are more dangerous than some
:58:48. > :58:50.which are more dangerous th`n some illegal drugs, herring cocaine have
:58:51. > :58:53.been around for a long time and we know what the effect is on the body.
:58:54. > :58:57.Two married Conservative cotncillors Two married Conservative cotncillors
:58:58. > :59:04.are cleared of wrongdoing after moving 150 miles away from the area
:59:05. > :59:09.they represent. Crawley MP Henry Smith was optimistic about getting
:59:10. > :59:10.the Downing Street to reverse is closure of the discovery free
:59:11. > :59:14.school. We did not get a fl`t closure of the discovery frde
:59:15. > :59:17.school. We did not get a flat no, school. We did not get a flat no,
:59:18. > :59:23.that is positive. But he was told the school will definitely close.
:59:24. > :59:30.The council in Brighton is one of 94 in the UK to wheel out to
:59:31. > :59:35.constituents and new fleet of beans at a 50% smaller. In Kent, the
:59:36. > :59:41.covenant used a grant to do likewise. `` a new fleet of bins.
:59:42. > :59:45.If you are standing for election in writing, you have to talk a lot of
:59:46. > :59:48.rubbish! Far too much rubbish in Brighton and too much is sitting on
:59:49. > :59:53.the street, it should be collected. The only referendum that counts is
:59:54. > :00:01.the one in 16 months which will see the Greens leaving office. People
:00:02. > :00:05.really care about this. People will never rise up in revolution for a
:00:06. > :00:07.theoretical idea but mess with never rise up in revolution for a
:00:08. > :00:08.theoretical idea but mess whth the theoretical idea but mess whth the
:00:09. > :00:12.bins and you will have blood on the streets! Thank you very much. That
:00:13. > :00:15.is all we have time for. Thank streets! Thank you very much. That
:00:16. > :00:16.is all we have time for. Th`nk you is all we have time for. Th`nk you
:00:17. > :00:31.to my guests. Now back to Andrew. houses being built by the mayor.
:00:32. > :00:36.Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last
:00:37. > :00:40.night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny
:00:41. > :00:43.Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving
:00:44. > :00:58.competition show, here she is in action.
:00:59. > :01:15.APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to
:01:16. > :01:22.campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much
:01:23. > :01:33.rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and
:01:34. > :01:36.control it. That looked painful. Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted
:01:37. > :01:39.off the show last night but what about the verdict that really
:01:40. > :01:42.matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael
:01:43. > :01:49.Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out
:01:50. > :01:53.of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a
:01:54. > :02:00.local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good
:02:01. > :02:03.sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your
:02:04. > :02:08.swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the
:02:09. > :02:13.spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.
:02:14. > :02:19.Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in
:02:20. > :02:26.asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a
:02:27. > :02:33.goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should
:02:34. > :02:36.she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these
:02:37. > :02:42.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:43. > :02:49.money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about
:02:50. > :02:55.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:56. > :03:04.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:05. > :03:11.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:12. > :03:14.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:15. > :03:17.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:18. > :03:26.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:27. > :03:30.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:31. > :03:36.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:37. > :03:40.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:41. > :03:46.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:47. > :03:48.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:49. > :03:53.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:54. > :03:58.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:03:59. > :04:08.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:09. > :04:12.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:13. > :04:17.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:18. > :04:22.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:23. > :04:27.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:28. > :04:34.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:35. > :04:38.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:39. > :04:42.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:43. > :04:49.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:50. > :04:54.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:55. > :05:00.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:01. > :05:06.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:07. > :05:10.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:11. > :05:16.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:17. > :05:22.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:23. > :05:25.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:26. > :05:31.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?
:05:32. > :05:38.Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the
:05:39. > :05:41.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:42. > :05:43.The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this
:05:44. > :05:46.morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual
:05:47. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour
:05:50. > :05:52.government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by
:05:53. > :05:57.the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,
:05:58. > :06:01.setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can
:06:02. > :06:06.ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to
:06:07. > :06:09.see Labour going into the next election as the party of
:06:10. > :06:15.competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed
:06:16. > :06:18.working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with
:06:19. > :06:22.those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I
:06:23. > :06:28.thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the
:06:29. > :06:33.party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of
:06:34. > :06:36.these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy
:06:37. > :06:42.sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about
:06:43. > :06:46.his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,
:06:47. > :06:50.the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is
:06:51. > :06:54.the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with
:06:55. > :07:00.the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder
:07:01. > :07:06.competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed
:07:07. > :07:12.Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be
:07:13. > :07:17.the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state
:07:18. > :07:21.intervention? -- broken markets. Exactly, and it is state
:07:22. > :07:29.intervention that does not work. There is a proud tradition in
:07:30. > :07:34.government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a
:07:35. > :07:36.century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and
:07:37. > :07:43.obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is
:07:44. > :07:47.entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free
:07:48. > :07:53.current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western
:07:54. > :07:56.countries. In the energy sector, our bills are not outlandish they high.
:07:57. > :07:59.It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He
:08:00. > :08:04.account the become unaffordable. He has to make the case that consumers
:08:05. > :08:08.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:09. > :08:12.is not about state intervention, but is not about state intervention but
:08:13. > :08:17.about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual
:08:18. > :08:21.Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.
:08:22. > :08:27.He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of
:08:28. > :08:34.the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting
:08:35. > :08:39.debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,
:08:40. > :08:49.the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are
:08:50. > :08:53.seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies
:08:54. > :08:58.competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller
:08:59. > :09:03.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:04. > :09:09.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:10. > :09:14.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:15. > :09:18.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:19. > :09:23.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:24. > :09:31.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:32. > :09:38.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:39. > :09:45.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:46. > :09:49.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:50. > :09:56.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:57. > :10:01.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:02. > :10:07.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:08. > :10:12.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:13. > :10:15.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it?
:10:16. > :10:16.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It
:10:17. > :10:18.late. Who would have thought it? It is not global warming that is
:10:19. > :10:25.causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last
:10:26. > :10:30.year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that
:10:31. > :10:36.UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the
:10:37. > :10:39.retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best
:10:40. > :10:47.interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage
:10:48. > :10:52.is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who
:10:53. > :10:56.are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the
:10:57. > :11:01.party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his
:11:02. > :11:07.word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel
:11:08. > :11:19.Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of
:11:20. > :11:22.UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,
:11:23. > :11:27.they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper
:11:28. > :11:32.organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The
:11:33. > :11:38.European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy
:11:39. > :11:42.with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things
:11:43. > :11:47.like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against
:11:48. > :11:56.the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like
:11:57. > :11:59.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:00. > :12:05.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:06. > :12:11.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:12. > :12:14.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:15. > :12:17.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice, the
:12:18. > :12:22.and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.
:12:23. > :12:27.Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad
:12:28. > :12:32.to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably
:12:33. > :12:35.a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives
:12:36. > :12:41.will understand that this is the only party that can secure European
:12:42. > :12:46.reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever
:12:47. > :12:51.happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost
:12:52. > :12:55.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party
:12:56. > :13:00.whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the
:13:01. > :13:06.common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns
:13:07. > :13:13.up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at
:13:14. > :13:19.the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,
:13:20. > :13:27.they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a
:13:28. > :13:31.legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily
:13:32. > :13:36.Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again
:13:37. > :13:39.next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.